Harbinger Feedback Thread [Merged]

[jack boule.8149]

Deadly Haste could be a bit longer on the user while a bit shorter on the allies

+ making the elixirs more powerfull, so the harbinger supp really needs to focus on concentration et elixirs share trait to be good, instead of just being a quickness dealer by just choosing 1 trait. & with the longer duration on himself, the harbinger keeps the identity of necros being a strong solo class etc (out of optimized stuff...)

[LucianDK.8615]

For pve condition harbinger

Going high Vitality and Eternal Life begins to show good sustain. But how much dps do you give up to actually be able to live?

Condi definitely have an easier time compared to power.

 

[Malkavian.3615]

The traits all feel too clean and boring, just 3 flavors of the same trait, 1 for each build. I would like to see them mixed up a bit, a gm trait using blight for the condition build, maybe not a must pick for each build in each row. The traits feel VERY different from other specs I have played where it istn so clear which trait is for what build.

[xev.9476]

Necro pistol feels like a clone of engineer's, and they're both very boring. Both 1 skills are a 1/2 second shot that inflict a condition; both 2s are volleys; both 3s do some measure of AoE - even the CDs are almost identical. You've added some enhanced functionality to necro pistol, yes, but can you possibly make it feel like its own unique weapon instead of a copy/paste of engineer's?

[Kuulpb.5412]

After an hour or so of playing around with harbinger here are my opinions:

The Stats on gear REQUIRE boon duration, otherwise the only redeeming aspect of Harbinger is useless - 5 seconds of all boons as an elite,  When necromancers can already give everyone 20 might for 20s,  and stability/swiftness as scourge - and Scourge doesn't need boon duration to give good stability, the ally just needs to run in the sand,

In full PlagueDoctor gear and same traits outside of elite spec - Scourge feels nicer to use because the shroud of harbinger not giving utilities means you cannot heal - despite taking health damage.

overall I am not a fan, and the pistol does not feel right to me. - Outside of all lore implications, it just doesn't fit the style.

[Wintermute.5408]

Power is dead on arrival. Pistol is trash, and there are no other decent power weapons.

[DANK.5304]

This might sound like a minor change but in my opinion it would be great if the harbinger had a different sound for the Pistol autoatack ability like, it might sound dumb but when I loged in and shoot my weapon it felt clanky and not "alchemist-y" or "necromancer-like" at all, that turned me a bit down, so if theres any sound added to the pistol kit for harbinger, even if its cheap, it would make a whole new feeling for the weapon uwu 

[LucianDK.8615]

3 minutes ago, DANK.5304 said:

This might sound like a minor change but in my opinion it would be great if the harbinger had a different sound for the Pistol autoatack ability like, it might sound dumb but when I loged in and shoot my weapon it felt clanky and not "alchemist-y" or "necromancer-like" at all, that turned me a bit down, so if theres any sound added to the pistol kit for harbinger, even if its cheap, it would make a whole new feeling for the weapon uwu 

I made HOPE for that reason, sounds like a laser pistol. Plus it fits thematically as the collections is heavilly oriented around alchemy.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

32 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

For pve condition harbinger

Going high Vitality and Eternal Life begins to show good sustain. But how much dps do you give up to actually be able to live?

Condi definitely have an easier time compared to power.

 

 Very good points that will require thorough testing. Unless harbringer avoids eating any damage, his LF burn for passive healing will heavily gut his shroud uptime forcing subpar damage (less shroud, or more lf generating tools and ergo less dmg from traits/utilities). The big question is: does his current kit allow him to avoid damage proper when played right, or is he still a necro and forced to facetank even with one dash and evade frame skill?

Edited August 17, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[lodjur.1284]

Lifeforce for other players on Harbinger shouldn't be the big bar you see. Annoying both on enemies and friendlies.

 

Spec feels somewhat balanced in WvW.

 

Shroud 3 is bugged when crippled/ chilled

 

Elixirs are all bad except elite one and that is mediocre

 

Bliss really didn't need 40 sec in WvW

Edited August 17, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Shroud.2307]

From a WvW perspective

I tried; Cele, Grieving, zerk, and a mix of zerk/Mara. Stayed with zerk/Mara because I liked it most, not necessarily because it was "good" per-se.
I found that the damage had some crazy POTENTIAL, but for the most part, wasn't that high. Sometimes I'd hit people for ridiculous numbers, but what really makes it work is how FAST the Shroud skills are.

I was able to win 100% of the 1v1's I had, of which I had about 10. But it wasn't so much because Harbinger is good as it was that it just blasts damage so quickly, and I'm already familiar with how to play a glass Necro because I've been playing zerk core for 4+ years.

With Blight stacks, I was pretty frequently hitting 10 - 13k Spinal Shivers, but I hit numbers like that with core Necro or Reaper sometimes too. My record for Shroud skill #2 however, was 16k. So that skill is pretty much a 1 shot (technically multiple since it's a shotgun) if you have enough Blight. Basically every time I hit someone with it when I was Blight/Might stacked a bit it was doing 50 - 75% of their health.

Also, despite the success I had in the 1v1's I managed to get, I felt constantly starved for Life Force. This spec absolutely chugs and it's very difficult to stay at or above 50% Life Force, which basically means you spend more time not using the spec mechanic than using it.

I find it really fun, but also not very good. I do enjoy it, and I can see potential in it, but also as expected, the risks are a lot higher than the rewards.

I honestly don't have a lot of constructive criticism to add. I haven't played with enough different builds yet, I feel "neutral" about the spec as a whole (I equal parts like and hate it),  and I wasn't able to get the kind of tests I wanted because mostly I was either; getting zerged/ganked, fighting players that had no clue how to fight, or blobbing and spamming damage.

I think most of what I predicated about it was right, but it has worse sustain than I expected. I thought the constant regen from Life Force converting to health would make it a bit like a Sword Weaver in that it could constantly resustain itself, but maybe I just wasn't using the right stats or traits.

[Asum.4960]

Thoughts so far:

Ironically, I think Harbinger is the easiest DPS to play Anet ever made. 95% of it's gameplay loop is auto attack and 2. 

Overtime there might be a higher DPS rotation discovered ofc, but you can beat the majority of DPS specs in the game by a good 5-8k by just holding down AA and pressing 2 on CD, with the usual BiP Transfer and Plaguelands. 

 

Getting Blight stacks is actually a lot slower than I thought (both in PvE as DPS rotation, and just getting much at all in PvP), but that's mostly down to the Elixier's being extremely subpar. Aside from weaving the Heal into the DPS rotation to maintain more Blight, I don't see any use or room for any of these aside from the currently sub-par boon support spec*.

That does mean though that the spec is slightly less squishy as thought, but also that you struggle to gain full value out of the adepts. Considering the damage it brings anyway though, that's okay. 

 

I still think the spec should do slightly less damage and gain some survivability back, as it stands, it's too squishy, too easy to play aside from that (you are either just pressing 2 buttons and doing insane dps, or instantly dead).

Give it some small % damage reduction per Blight Stack on Alchemic Vigor/reduce Blight to -1% per Stack and shave a tiny bit of DPS off, and aside from the incredibly easy rotation the Condi variant is golden. 

 

Power Harbinger I can't even begin to imagine how to save. It's just so much worse in every single way (almost half the DPS, no sustain option akin to Tormenting Runes, more squishy in general play, zero benefit).

 

The boon support is fairly straight forward too, and seeing Deathly Haste being already adjusted to 2 seconds base Quickness duration is a welcome change, making it much more reliable in real gameplay scenarios with mechanics. 

That said, it's DPS suffers greatly from picking up that boon support, so in early testing it just seems like a  lower DPS, lower (in crucial) support and utility Quickbrand. 

The option to provide Quickness on Necro is a nice addition, but it's no where near competitive for high end play from what I've seen and tested so far. 

 

For PvP, testing ofc is extremely unreliable depending on opponent skill, but with extremely limited testing it seems playable as hit and run sustainer/brawler - although I feel like Dhuumfire being 3 seconds in PvP for Harbinger currently is an oversight. Once that's fixed to be the same as in PvE or lower, it will seriously lack damage combined with it's squishyness. 

Nerfing the adepts to 0.5% extra damage in PvP seems a bit laughable with how little Blight you'll actually have there, at least until Elixiers are massively buffed or reworked. 

But even then, having that Blight it should be more rewarding.

 

For general OW, Harbinger is a sheer immortal sustain god that melts anything it looks at.. but that's nothing new for OW, so not particularly notable, almost anything can do that these days if build right. 

For anything slightly tougher, Scourge is just objectively a better spec - where Harbinger will get flattened like a fly, Scourge will walk through like a breeze, and to bulk up Harbinger via tanky stats etc., means giving up DPS to levels below Scourge, will still not reaching it's tankyness and sustain.

 

Globally, Shroud feels very fun to play. Finally zooming around on Necro, after all those years, brings a smile to my face. Being squishy but mobile and heavily sustaining fills that Wraith/Vampire spec itch I've wanted for Necro for years.

Pistol is a bit bland, especially the Auto Attack, but generally fine. 

Elixiers.. belong back on the drawing board.

Power Builds I almost don't see salvageable with this kit, which is a shame as it wastes those Trait options which could have occupied more interesting situational options.

Necro desperately needs all it's core Off-Hands reworked and buffed though, as well as Axe and Dagger Main-Hand to get looked at, maybe that could be something for Powerbinger as well then.

 

Small extra notes, Harbingershroud should not replace the Health bar for allies in the UI anymore.. since it's not a Health bar. 

Similarly, I feel like this deserves access to Utilities in Shroud, akin to Photon Forge.

Additionally I wish at least either one or both of Pistol or Shroud had an actual attack chain, esp considering how of DPS'ing is mostly just 1+2, actually getting to watch and having to time a cool attack chain would at least bring some variety and be more engaging.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Rainbow Dragon.7268]

disclaimer i don't do wvw or pvp anymore just pve so this is coming from a carebear pve viewpoint 😛

 

Ok i love harbinger but shroud skill 4 seems a bit meh to me i think its not needed i've never felt like necro needed mobility to be honest so just having shroud 3 is enough for me, i think shroud 4 should be a long range single target damage option instead of mobility but that's just me. i'm liking the blight mechanic also it's actually kinda fun to see my max hp run down  to 14k or less XD 

 

o and elixer's i like the added condi damage you get from the blight they cause i felt the elite elixer i won't use over plaguelands it feels a bit gimmicky for an elite but that's just my take on it 😄

Edited August 17, 2021 by Dreamatics.4987
extra comment about elixer added

[Donari.5237]

I set up my Harbinger with all Viper stats but kept the Dolyak runes and Celestial jewels.  I've been hopping around to places like the Silverwastes and the Desolation and even Thunderhead Peaks branded areas.  I feel like I'm absolutely melting enemies.  I have been downed a few times, and died once (Joko's palace of bones is a very mean place) but I feel very strong.  I love the shroud skills and have found them very quickly intuitive.  Still working on figuring out which pistol skill in base mode does an interrupt, and I'm not sure I like dagger for the off hand, but overall I'm solidly in favor of this spec (for PvE, which is all I do).

 

However I'm with the others saying the elixirs don't add much.  They are basically boon dispensers, one is purely a stun break with no other good effects but still inflicts 5 blight.  The blight itself hasn't felt like a problem, I'm used to shroud dancing and finding ways to heal, but it seems pretty weak to trade blight for a stun break without doing anything to enemies or for friends.  I've already ditched one elixir in favor of Signet of the Locust so I'm not moving through tar.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[LucianDK.8615]

1 minute ago, Acyk.9671 said:

Which game mode did you try?

WvW?

Why viper? This e-spec needs vitality even more than others necro e-spec, try with a more appropriate gear.

This is the most interesting out of the 3 in pvp thanks to its mobility and damage.

Unfortunately most elixirs are kitten so we end playing the same utilities as core necro...

 

Talking pve.

[Will.9785]

Like I feared, the off-hands are mere decorations.  Either the off-hands of base necro need to be reworked or off-hand pistol should be included as well.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Will.9785

[Wintermute.5408]

Bottomline.

 

Harbinger needs to be absolutely LOADED with evades and blocks. Otherwise it becomes THE squishiest class in game, putting even elementalists to shame. No active defences, no health, no shroud - nothing. It simply isn't going to work.

 

Blight has no business taking 50% of our HP. The tradeoff is pathetic - 25% damage mod is what reaper and scourge get more or less for free, together with their survivability and sustain.

 

On that note, 25% damage mod that's not permanent, but goes up and down all the time, is a joke. And an unfunny one at that.

 

Shroud deals no power damage. Where supposedly "big damage" shotgun deals ~12k damage, reaper gets the same from AA chains. I can't provide precise numbers due to my gear being kittened on both harb and reaper, but the difference is clearly visible regardless. And since the intention here was clearly to offer both damage types... well, one of them is just no there.

 

HB Shroud has no business locking out our utilities. Period. It's bad enough as it is - just let it be a third weapon.

Necro weapons are garbage. There are no weapons to run for power HB. There are no offhands to run for both power and condi HB. We've been needing a weapon pass for the longest time, but with mainhand espec, this is painfully evident.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

I went Celestial stats for sustain,

1 Strike damage was as expected and reasonable DPS

2 Condi damage is the way to go for this class with good numbers

3 Boon Duration should be improved slightly even with the +50% boon duration from Celestial gear, perhaps 1 to 2 seconds across the board.

4 Elixir skills shine with the trait Twisted Medicine in Groups containing 3 or more Harbingers.

5 Harbinger Shroud is extremely risky behavior. This desperately needs a mitigation of some kind; might I suggest a toughness buff of 125 per 10% of health lost. I’m spending a lot of time resurrecting players from AoE Strike damage. Condi damage can be mitigated by other means to compensate, but that lack of health is killing players caught off guard.

 

[Sorra.1735]

im in love with the harbringer, i love the playstyle with the pistol and the traits are very well done (shame the willbender doesnt have at least a similar traits like harbringer in terms of choosing what you wanna do condi/direct dmg or support) the movement in shroud is refreshing and gives the class a very fun playstyle.  i like the thought of reducing the hp and elixirs tho you could have beet a little more creative and make different shapes for them cuz engi has nice icons.

what bothers me is that you have a very strong sustain in pvp, with this setup https://imgur.com/a/ao8U19T i was almost unkillable, which is weird when you had in mind high risk for having lower hp. with carrion amulet i still had around 15k hp while having 25 stacks of blight. i dare say i have better sustain with that build on harbringer than on scourge. the problem comes with the healing while not in shroud while the healing skill gives life force. every time i got under 50% hp i just went out of shroud and used the heal skill and the life force healed me nicely while kiting the enemy. the damage is also something that should be nerfed i think, and im talking about the torment dmg from harbringer. maybe lower the duration for the tormend that the pistol and shroud applies? i could stack up to 30 stacks of tomerment without a single problem (with the trait) overall the condi side of this spec feels veeeery OP. 

[Ravezaar.4951]

Positive it hits hard and its good condi dmg and its not garbage like Virtuoso so thats something. 

 

Negative its very low sustain, I miss my shroud and I tend to use NO Elixirs

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Warscythes.9307]

5 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Bottomline.

 

Harbinger needs to be absolutely LOADED with evades and blocks. Otherwise it becomes THE squishiest class in game, putting even elementalists to shame. No active defences, no health, no shroud - nothing. It simply isn't going to work.

 

Blight has no business taking 50% of our HP. The tradeoff is pathetic - 25% damage mod is what reaper and scourge get more or less for free, together with their survivability and sustain.

 

On that note, 25% damage mod that's not permanent, but goes up and down all the time, is a joke. And an unfunny one at that.

 

Shroud deals no power damage. Where supposedly "big damage" shotgun deals ~12k damage, reaper gets the same from AA chains. I can't provide precise numbers due to my gear being kittened on both harb and reaper, but the difference is clearly visible regardless. And since the intention here was clearly to offer both damage types... well, one of them is just no there.

 

HB Shroud has no business locking out our utilities. Period. It's bad enough as it is - just let it be a third weapon.

Necro weapons are garbage. There are no weapons to run for power HB. There are no offhands to run for both power and condi HB. We've been needing a weapon pass for the longest time, but with mainhand espec, this is painfully evident.

 

You have active defense via shroud 4 evade.

 

If you are talking about PvP, you don't camp shroud and stay at 25 blight. You just dip in, cc, shroud 2 and spam 1 and get out with your dashes. Use a tanky amulet. Harbringer is actually deceptively tankier than what it looks like.  

[Wintermute.5408]

2 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

You have active defense via shroud 4 evade.

 

If you are talking about PvP, you don't camp shroud and stay at 25 blight. You just dip in, cc, shroud 2 and spam 1 and get out with your dashes. Use a tanky amulet. Harbringer is actually deceptively tankier than what it looks like.  

1 evade. Wow. Many wow.

[Warscythes.9307]

Just now, Wintermute.5408 said:

1 evade. Wow. Many wow.

Yes, which is also a long range dash. You also have another dash on a 5 second cooldown.

 

You are not going to be perma 11k hp because again, you don't camp shroud. You just take a tanky amulet with a base hp of 30k+ and only go in shroud for a couple skills and get out. Why would you camp it if you do enough damage without needing 25 blight? This isn't PvE for max damage.