Necro has a Serious Weapon Problem

Coming from a pvp prospective regarding core necro and reaper. scourge I dont even know where to start..

the problem: Necro is waaaay too reliant on his shroud for dealing damage. out of shroud, necro almost always needs to play defensively because it simply lacks the tools to go face to face against any class played by a competent player. the problem there is either the combination of the far too long cast times and no stability or simply the complete absence of damage. Also only greatsword has an ability (nightfall) that could be described a active defense!

the only good weapon:focus: solid range damage, could use a unblockable #4 but it arguing on a high level.

the semi-bad weaponsaxe: the 10s cooldown (12 if you add the casttime) on #2 is just too much. 6-8s there and this looks way better. #3 needs to be a blast finisher (combo for blind in a dark field)

scepter: #2 could use some lifeforce generation, a lot more condition output and a lower cooldown. rest is fine.

the really bad weapons:staff: cool design, 0 damagedagger mainhand: cool design, 0 damagedagger offhand: #5 is inexistantwarhorn: #5 is inexistantgreatsword: #4 is good, other skills are way to slow to use in close combat

Ideas:

greatsword:Gravedigger should get a cast time of 3/4s. Its powerscaling was nerfed from 3.0 to 1.82!! last patch, which is now the same as warriors arcing slice (cast time 1/2s!). thats just a perfect example how one sided the classbalancing is...the much faster cast time would make GS feel way faster and way more dangerous to fight in close combat

staff: the weapondesign is awesome for competitive modes. It only problem is the inexistant damage.autoattack: should be a 100% projectile finisher, given how slow it is. 1stack of poison for 3s would be nice toomark of blood: I suggest to triple its raw damage so staff has 1 damage dealing skill on the bar. the low cooldown compensates for the inexistant damage on the other skills

dagger mainhand: could be a good dueling weapon if it actually dealt some damage..autoattack: add 1stack of beed for 4s on every hit so it can proc the trait blood bond, increase the raw damage. dagger has no big hitters so it at least the autoattack should hit harder than most others.Life Siphon: reduce cooldown to 6s (thats then 8s including its cast time) increase the damage a bit to match axe#2 levels. some might per pulse could be cool tooDark Pact: give back the 2 boon corrupts, increase the damage, add 5s swiftness and fury or protection on hit

Warhorn: while #4 is good, skill 5 has been completely destroyed a while ago. I'd vote for a complete rework on #5, maybe with an evade while the insects cover the necro

Dagger offhand: #4 needs a 8% lifeforce gain per hit and wayy more damage (factor 10 or so). #5 needs a complete rework. a 4s miniversion of corrusive poison cloud or some throw the dagger and teleport to target skill would be cool

something needs to be done because state now is that core necro and reaper are being carried by shroud. it is one nerf away from being unplayable..

*edited spelling mistakes

you overlooking the fact that weapons exceed in certain modes. staff is often used in wvw. scepter and warhorn in pvp and axe focus/gs are great for pve. Gravedigger seems to have a slower animations yes, but you can still get quickness to speed it up when you leave reapershroud at the right time.

@pninak.1069 said:you overlooking the fact that weapons exceed in certain modes. staff is often used in wvw. scepter and warhorn in pvp and axe focus/gs are great for pve. Gravedigger seems to have a slower animations yes, but you can still get quickness to speed it up when you leave reapershroud at the right time.

That's a good point that many players seem to overlook -there's nothing wrong about weapons excelling in different areas of the game. In fact it'd be really hard -if not near impossible- to make them excel evenly throughout multiple modes.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@pninak.1069 said:you overlooking the fact that weapons exceed in certain modes. staff is often used in wvw. scepter and warhorn in pvp and axe focus/gs are great for pve. Gravedigger seems to have a slower animations yes, but you can still get quickness to speed it up when you leave reapershroud at the right time.

Yet there are weapons that do fine across all game modes. Warrior GS and Axe are two of them. A fair argument can be made that ANY weapon should at least viable in all game modes, even if it isn't BIS. Necro daggers have been aweful for a very long time, and GS does feel consistently a 1/4s too slow, and Staff could use more damage for a trap based mechanic.

Okay, I am talking about the competitive modes:

Greatsword:

• Every skill on GS has its uses.
• The autoattack is good when your target tries to kite you and you run speed rune.
• GS2 has its full potential when combo'd with GS5 (cast, stow weapon, grave digger). If you can't do that, because you are already at melee range or GS5 is on cooldown, it's still good to bait a dodge, enter shroud and start to nuke.
• GS3 deals the most damage of all GS skills, has a moderate cooldown, some nice range, generates life force and applies vulnerability. It's always worth to use and a very underestimated skill.
• GS4: you mentioned it: a great defensive tool.
• GS5: tricky to use due to the small cone, but a pull is always nice when your heavy attacks (reaper shroud) are all melee ranged.

Greatsword is one of the best weapons in the game.

Axe is a very good ranged weapon and the buff to a 50% threshold made axe3 finally viable. Axe2 is the best ranged skill necro has and the auto is underwhelming but decent, esp. since the damage is not complete trash and it is a ranged skill that ignores projectile blocks.

Focus is also good but only useful when paired with axe.

The problem for core now is that the axe/focus set runs out of gas extremely quick. It's a burst set. It does not work on its own. And that's the problem for core necro: focus5, axe2 ... and then you start to swing wet noodles, because the rest of the core necro weapons are extremely bad.

Staff is only good if you want to tag as much targets as possible. But this should not be the main purpose of a viable weapon.

Mainhand dagger has a dps of something around 2k damage (while - unlike thief - you are extremely vulnerable!). It's hard to believe that this has passed a viability check, since this weapon is the main damage weapon for core necro. The 3s immob sounds extremely strong but is consumed by the laughable damage that follows (think about the horrible aftercasts most necro skills have).

Scepter: laughable pressure. It's just a filler while you wait for cooldowns of important skills. But since it's ranged, it can be used as a filler at least.

Offhand dagger and warhorn: a condi transfer and a daze ... might be good if you could deal damage with the rest of your toolkit.

@KrHome.1920 said:Okay, I am talking about the competitive modes:

Greatsword:

• Every skill on GS has its uses.
• The autoattack is good when your target tries to kite you and you run speed rune.
• GS2 has its full potential when combo'd with GS5 (cast, stow weapon, grave digger). If you can't do that, because you are already at melee range or GS5 is on cooldown, it's still good to bait a dodge, enter shroud and start to nuke.
• GS3 deals the most damage of all GS skills, has a moderate cooldown, some nice range, generates life force and applies vulnerability. It's always worth to use and a very underestimated skill.
• GS4: you mentioned it: a great defensive tool.
• GS5: tricky to use due to the small cone, but a pull is always nice when your heavy attacks (reaper shroud) are all melee ranged.

Greatsword is one of the best weapons in the game.

Axe is a very good ranged weapon and the buff to a 50% threshold made axe3 finally viable. Axe2 is the best ranged skill necro has and the auto is underwhelming but decent, esp. since the damage is not complete trash and it is a ranged skill that ignores projectile blocks.

Focus is also good but only useful when paired with axe.

The problem for core now is that the axe/focus set runs out of gas extremely quick. It's a burst set. It does not work on its own. And that's the problem for core necro: focus5, axe2 ... and then you start to swing wet noodles, because the rest of the core necro weapons are extremely bad.

Staff is only good if you want to tag as much targets as possible. But this should not be the main purpose of a viable weapon.

Mainhand dagger has a dps of something around 2k damage (while - unlike thief - you are extremely vulnerable!). It's hard to believe that this has passed a viability check, since this weapon is the main damage weapon for core necro. The 3s immob sounds extremely strong but is consumed by the laughable damage that follows (think about the horrible aftercasts most necro skills have).

Scepter: laughable pressure. It's just a filler while you wait for cooldowns of important skills. But since it's ranged, it can be used as a filler at least.

Offhand dagger and warhorn: a condi transfer and a daze ... might be good if you could deal damage with the rest of your toolkit.

I agree with you on all points exept one:

greatsword. I'm okay with every skill has its purposes but compared to the close quarters kits other classes offer the necro gs just looks old. it desperately needs one fast skill or an evade/block to counter foes. chances are highter the first thing will happen

@pninak.1069 said:you overlooking the fact that weapons exceed in certain modes. staff is often used in wvw. scepter and warhorn in pvp and axe focus/gs are great for pve. Gravedigger seems to have a slower animations yes, but you can still get quickness to speed it up when you leave reapershroud at the right time.

compare necro staff to revenant hammer though the damage difference is probably factor 10

other classes like warrior or ranger also have access to quickness yet that is no reason for them to have 1.25s casttimes...

they don't have unblockble attacks on ranged weapons. and the marks have a very big area of effect. good for fearomancer dmg dealing. you also got condi transfer on it which the other classes don't have.

I do agree that the necromancer is to reliant on it's shroud for damage. The profession just put to much emphasis onto the shroud. However, I believe that the most utilities being offensive in nature also contribute to the weapon being low on damage.

@KrHome.1920 said:

Staff is only good if you want to tag as much targets as possible. But this should not be the main purpose of a viable weapon.

I'm no necro main, but I have played necro in WvW, Staff is pretty good in WvW as you can stop an enemy push just by putting marks down on the ground, you can also see where the enemy is if they stealth and if they pop the marks, aswell as pushing enemy groups the long way around them so by the time they get around them, they are no longer in stealth allowing your group to then push them on your terms.

It's like what @pninak.1069 said, not every weapon will be good in each game mode, I think the issue is the weapons that can be used are not used in any game mode at all and that is what should be looked at instead

Why does there only have to be Damage applied to the weapons?? Staff could be a really cool Supportive Life-Steal/Utility weapon - albeit with at least a bit of damage on 1-2 skills so that it can still defend itself. I find the Marks to be very clunky and outdated, as well. Staff just becomes useless on any enemy that does not move - as they function the same exact way as a trap. (Also would love to see traps activate-able after a short delay).

Dagger needs help for sure. The damage is too low for the high risk of being in melee range and the 2 target cleave. In addition the self bleed isn't a great idea when the boon rip is only 1 boon deep.

I don't think scepter needs help in competitive modes due to the poison application on auto as well as the cripple, boon rip/torment stacking. Staff is stronger in WVW than in PVP but the most I think it should get is some short bleed condition on auto to make it more of a hybrid weapon. Compared to having all conditions on the attacks and then an auto with none (also the sigil of earth hasn't been removed from the game so it isn't as bad as it is made out to be if you run viper or some precision stat such as serpah or rabid) , a bleed of a few seconds would be a net gain. If they reduce the power coefficient it wouldn't bother me as it is primarily for range pressure / life force generation.

Axe is more of power ranged pressure when you can't be in melee range with Greatsword on Reaper. Because it has AoE boon rip and vulnerability it isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

Offhand dagger applies conditions so it's mainly used for ranged condi pressure ; in PVE when running a non-scourge condi build.

Focus is fine only in PVP/WVW. In PVE you don't have boons put up often enough to make use of the boon rip.

Warhorn needs to be more reliable with the daze as it's a utility weapon , that swiftness and minor life steal on locust swarm isn't a DPS option.

@KrHome.1920 said:Mainhand dagger has a dps of something around 2k damage (while - unlike thief - you are extremely vulnerable!). It's hard to believe that this has passed a viability check, since this weapon is the main damage weapon for core necro. The 3s immob sounds extremely strong but is consumed by the laughable damage that follows (think about the horrible aftercasts most necro skills have).

I agree in PvP this is pretty abysmal, although Life Siphon is a pretty significant heal on a short CD.Problem is it's so easy to avoid which hammers it's use in PvP.. it's superb in PvE though.. I use it often as a dedicated healing skill so I don't have to sacrifice a minion or activate a signet.

staff is an utility weapon, and VERY good at that, all 4 of its skills are almost impossible to tell apart, they hit through walls.and when you look at all of them you havepoison-> heal reductionchill->big slow and cd increasecondi cleanse -> defenceregeneration -> defenceand cc. most of staff attacks if you play properly you should get off for free, while being safe behind los or kiting away, or from long range.bottom line is, it provides good utility in strong reliable way, its really good and its one of my fav weapons necro has, i dont think it needs buffing

@kroof.5468 said:Why does there only have to be Damage applied to the weapons?? Staff could be a really cool Supportive Life-Steal/Utility weapon - albeit with at least a bit of damage on 1-2 skills so that it can still defend itself. I find the Marks to be very clunky and outdated, as well. Staff just becomes useless on any enemy that does not move - as they function the same exact way as a trap. (Also would love to see traps activate-able after a short delay).

because anet refuses necro any sort of active defenses so you get damage or interrupt/utility on your skills as necro. the utility is already there and it only saves your butt for like 3seconds at max if somebody looks at you in pvp. then you either kite or get eaten alive while having 0 to put up against. I cannot see how this is balanced

on GS you at least have a chance to land a random gravedigger for damage if the enemy is braindeath enough to not cast anything for 2seconds (a bit overexaggerated but u get the point I think)

@Leonidrex.5649 said:staff is an utility weapon, and VERY good at that, all 4 of its skills are almost impossible to tell apart, they hit through walls.and when you look at all of them you havepoison-> heal reductionchill->big slow and cd increasecondi cleanse -> defenceregeneration -> defenceand cc. most of staff attacks if you play properly you should get off for free, while being safe behind los or kiting away, or from long range.bottom line is, it provides good utility in strong reliable way, its really good and its one of my fav weapons necro has, i dont think it needs buffing

I agree the design of staff is awesome! it works as a stalling weapon that like pauses the fight for a couple of seconds, avoiding hits but also dealing 0 noticable damage. or could you explain how you kill things with it?

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

Staff

is only good if you want to tag as much targets as possible. But this should not be the main purpose of a viable weapon.

I wouldnt even mind if there were weapons not used in any game if necro had 2 good weaponsets each for power and condi in every gamemode where it can go face to face with enemies outside of shroud.

from a pvp perspective right now I only see focus being there that is 20% of a power set.

besides the shrouds ofc

@DEATHsCLAW.1978 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:staff is an utility weapon, and VERY good at that, all 4 of its skills are almost impossible to tell apart, they hit through walls.and when you look at all of them you havepoison-> heal reductionchill->big slow and cd increasecondi cleanse -> defenceregeneration -> defenceand cc. most of staff attacks if you play properly you should get off for free, while being safe behind los or kiting away, or from long range.bottom line is, it provides good utility in strong reliable way, its really good and its one of my fav weapons necro has, i dont think it needs buffing

you cant kill things with it, but you dont have to. utility alone makes it worth it, and the damage honestly is not all that bad, if you know who to target, then hitting 5 marks will drop 20-30% hp from them, along with fear chill poison etc puts the pressure on them, as long as you can get the casts off for free its a good weapon.kite, use range, abuse terrain, hit the right targets, love the staff and it will love you back.

Honestly, Scepter should have Devouring Darkness and the 50% condi duration increase from Lingering Curse as baseline.Lingering Curse should follow more with standard weapon traits. Something like Scepter skills have 20% less recharge, increase condition duration by 10% increased to 20% while wielding a Sceptre.

For Greatsword, Gravedigger needs a faster cast. It's really bad. Especially since it doesn't even generate Life Force meaning that since so much damage is pushed into Shroud (Especially for Reaper) AA's can often be more meaningful to get some LF to use Shroud.

Dagger MH needs to decide what it wants to be. Power or Condi. Then be tuned for that, with a boosted AA with either more raw damage or conditions. Then adjust Life Siphon for whatever option is decided (Such as stacking Torment for Condi with bonus application against foes meeting a bleeding threshold. Or for Power having a different threshold for its bonus damage, such as enemy life total)

Staff... Needs some damage. Or needs more utility if it wants to be a supportive weapon that you swap to for non-damage skills. Meaning either;

1) Up the damage of skills 1, 2, 3 and 5. Increase the Bleed stacks from skill 2 up to 3-4. Add a bleed stack to skill 1.

Or

2) Add Swiftness and/or Vigor to self when Chillblains procs. Add Protection to self when Reaper's Mark procs. Maybe add a Boon steal (Or at least strip if you don't want to give Necro access to boon steal) component to Putrid Mark

Also, add in 20% skill recharge reduction to Soul Marks trait.

Dagger OH should apply Torment stack(s) with Deathly Swarm in addition to its other effects.

Focus and Warhorn both can be improved with the same change. Turn the Life Siphon skills (Soul Grasp and Locust Swarm respectively) into regular damage skills that have an additional effect of healing for 10% of the damage dealt by the skill (Or change them to similar functionality to Life Siphon/Life Transfer where they have a secondary independent heal effect). This means, they can then crit, vastly improving their damage capabilities.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@pninak.1069 said:you overlooking the fact that weapons exceed in certain modes. staff is often used in wvw. scepter and warhorn in pvp and axe focus/gs are great for pve. Gravedigger seems to have a slower animations yes, but you can still get quickness to speed it up when you leave reapershroud at the right time.

To the contrary, it’s actually detrimental to the game to not have all weapons being viable for every mode, and it is indeed very possible to make everything viable everywhere. It’s just that Anet doesn’t understand how to do this. It comes down to build diversity and target scaling.

A weapon designed for 1v1 combat with a niche ability to corrupt boons is not going to excel in WvW. Period. No matter how many buffs or nerfs you give it.

Add functions that allow the weapon to scale and serve multiple build styles (ex: staff can be a group healer weapon with a few trait/functionality changes)

But anet can’t see past this idea of “buffs/nerfs” and so we will always have these issues.

I think everyone here overlooks that Gravedigger reduces it's cooldown by 100% if it hits a foe below 50% health. It resets completely. I get the feeling that this contributes to it's power alot and if people want it to hit faster, then this functionality should get removed.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:To the contrary, it’s actually detrimental to the game to not have all weapons being viable for every mode, and it is indeed very possible to make everything viable everywhere. It’s just that Anet doesn’t understand how to do this. It comes down to build diversity and target scaling.

Yeah, good luck with that idea.

@Kodama.6453 said:I think everyone here overlooks that Gravedigger reduces it's cooldown by 100% if it hits a foe below 50% health. It resets completely. I get the feeling that this contributes to it's power alot and if people want it to hit faster, then this functionality should get removed.

I dunno.

Back before its damage was nerfed? Sure.

But as it stands right now, it's not that much better than AA's even with its 0 CD. (It's only around 50% more raw DPS. Without factoring in how AA's provide Life Force to get into the very high damage perma-Quickness+300 Ferocity+33% crit chance+10% more damage Shroud as well as AA's providing Chill for more Cold Shoulder uptime, which can also include Vulnerability from Bitter Chill as well as damage procs from Chilling Nova)

With this being in the ideal scenario of PvE where enemies can't simply evade the highly telegraphed attack which would cause it to go on its full CD.

Even with a shorter cast point on it, Gravedigger wouldn't be to obscene, it would essentially be similar to Thieves and their Heartseeker which has its damage go up by 50% and 100% on targets below 50% and 25% life respectively (Which has a cast point of 0.75s and has no CD inherently).

Just bumping it down by 0.25s down to a flat 1s cast point would do a lot to make it feel better, it'd also put it on a similar cast point to Death Spiral and Chilling Scythe which are both 1s (Though, it would also be nice to see Chilling Scythe go down to 0.75s as it too can feel a bit slow)

For raw numbers, a 1s cast point Gravedigger would do approximately 87% more raw DPS than AA's (Again, not factoring in the utility from AA's chill and Life Force gain) with its 0 cooldown spam.

A 0.75s cast point Gravedigger would do approximately 140% more raw DPS than AA's, which would probably be an issue, making 1s cast point the more ideal number.

(For further thought, 0.75s cast point Chilling Scythe would make AA's do approximately 11% more DPS. Making a 1s cast point Gravedigger only deal 68% more raw DPS and a 0.75s cast point Gravedigger only doing approx 124% more raw DPS)

I wouldn't object to an all around dagger damage buff.

@Kodama.6453 said:I think everyone here overlooks that Gravedigger reduces it's cooldown by 100% if it hits a foe below 50% health. It resets completely. I get the feeling that this contributes to it's power alot and if people want it to hit faster, then this functionality should get removed.

Id trade that functionality for a 0.75 cast time any day

rather a working weapon than a reset on a weapon skill with a dps of an autoattack