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Do You Find The Game More Fun To Play Now Or Before Revamp

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  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Sure with auto who did 2k+ you can cover multiple auto with defensive skill haha. what a joke.

    Why would you care about an auto doing 2k. You do know that, with how slow autos are, that that would take forever to kill even on an enemy with no damage reduction or healing, right? Like, not even the heal skill. No, lets break the strawman. If you spam, that means using all your high damage skills instantly. Stuff like Nade Barrage. And then it all gets covered by one defensive skill, and you lose.

    That's basically why PU burst mesmer is a one pony trick. And also why it's not meta. Because contrary to some other setup once you drop your burst you have nothing.

    Its not meta now because damage is far too low. Your burst fails to even put a dent in anyone, and if you +1 you might as well just play thief if damage isnt that important (which it isnt).

    No it's not meta because it lose the lock part on a "lock burst" spec.

    Once again you dont know your own class. The class didnt do "lock burst" anyway. Stuns were always completely unneccessary. What makes it not meta is straight up the lack of damage. As is the case for many other builds.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    Yeah I don't live in a world where rev stow their elite, for sure.

    Given that that was a pretty standard thing by good players last patch, that says a lot about you.

    I'm sure you face thoses players everyday to figure it out lul.

    Nowadays? Nah. People just faceroll nowadays, so while its still technically correct to do, most dont. Pre-patch? Yeah, a lot. More than I even saw thieves stow-cancelling Shadowshot.

    You usually use shadowshot to counter enemy cast with blind (more than to gap closer mele autoing.), in which stow this is totally absurb.
    Ho wait, what if the opponent stow his attack to thief has to stow his shadowshot then. Stow meta omg.

    You really should learn not to talk about things you dont have a clue about. Because Shadowshot is not at all used for that. The projectile is too slow to reliably do it. Its used as a gapcloser, or just to push damage when theyre not low and in range for heartseekers. And a very common thing to see thieves do is, once theyre in stealth, they shadowshot you, stow-cancel before the damaging part hits, and then backstab you.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    If by childish you meant "as stupid as a childs statements", yes. Because its stupid, and wrong. In the first scenario, facerolling instantly loses you the fight, because you guarantee that you have no pressure whatsoever, and they can just freely kill you. In the second scenario, facerolling is the optimal way of playing, and is guaranteed to maximise your chances of winning.

    Nice you understand that you can spam on the two setup, next you need to figure out that defensive were pretty disparate between classes.

    No, you can only spam on the second setup, the current patch. Pre-patch, spamming was a 100% guaranteed way to lose the fight instantly. Post-patch its the 100% optimal play. And sure, defenses werent exactly the same, but thats not relevant, because fights were still even. One way or another.

    No, on many class you could put pressure just with low CD which mean that you can freely rotate it until opponent defense break.

    3 issues. First, there was no class with low cd high damage that didnt require setup using higher CD skills. Second, they can fight back, yknow? Third, if you spammed everything, you had nothing for a bit, so their defenses wouldnt break.

    Well, we didn't agree about what high damage are, so starting with this, how can you continue arguing about this. Mean 6k isn't peanuts...

    6k when it comes to burst is peanuts. The average class has usually about 20k health. Your burst fails to take off a third.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    Yeah it's sad but is is unless you macroed all your skills.

    Nope. How many clicks is 100% irrelevant to how good or effective a class is. Engineer is good despite requiring far more clicks than any other class.

    If you does 4 clics to do the same thing someone do in 1 clic it mean that the one with 1 clic have 4 more skills available so 4 more possibilites. Dunno why you can't understand this simple fact.

    3 issues, again. Seems to be a pattern. First, not all classes have the same number of skills. An Engineer can use 6 skills, and still have more available than a thief. Second, thats ignoring whether or not the "1 button" that did damage needed other skills to be set up. Yknow, like how backstab is 1 skill, but good luck accessing it without black powder into heartseeker. Third, not all skills are equal, so even if you have more available, that doesnt even mean much, a Rev can do more with fewer skills than, say, a Weaver.

    Yeah it's true.

    Slowly youre starting to accept reality. Its progress at least.

    Plus if you need comboing hard to do the same things as a 1 clic blessed, you have more time to concentrate on rotation and map awarness.

    No idea what youre even trying to say here, but given your track record, its probably wrong.

    The idea is that if the build play for you thanks to easy setup (mean no combo needed), you have more time looking at map rotation.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Yes, now look at the number of backstab or shadowshot thief can do during your burst CD, oops.

    None, because you cant get a backstab off mid-combat, you have to disengage and find a new target? By which point the Mesmers cooldowns are all bck up. You really need to know things before you talk about them. As for shadowshot, you think thats better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab? Yeah. And thats just on the greatsword.

    Yeah It's so hard to stealth from clones or utility to backstab off mid-combat. You really need to go plat3 with a mesmer facing high level thieves.

    How does a clone help a D/P thief to get stealth? ... are you suggesting that people play D/D thief? I mean, kitten, I know you know nothing about thief, but this is sad. As for utilities, if you get hit by a backstab off of a 1 second channel, you mustve seriously messed up.

    Yep I regulary meet D/D thief. Because D/P know they can be rupt when I'm playing MoD.

    .... Wait are you trying to tank your credibility? Admitting that you regularly meet a build so bad its not even a meme build and instead just straight up trolling is not a good thing to do.

    Considered shadowshot prevent casting phantasms, is a mobility skill and hit for 4 to 5k5, I really think it's better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab yeah.

    Your ignorance continues to impress. Shadowshot does not hit anywhere close to 4k to 5k. Thats what backstab hits for. Shadowshot hits for 70% of that, so 2.5-3.5k-ish. Which is a lot lower than phantasmal berserkers damage. And it only prevents casting phantasms if you cant clear the blind which uh, yeah lets just say with GS auto thats pretty trivial. Its a lot worse for sustained damage.

    You want I screenshot every shadowshot > 4k I took ? Just been around 10 yesterday but next time I can capture them if you want.

    Please do show us those magical shadowshots. Oh but do make sure to include context, so we can see its not just a bunch of 25 might vs 25 vuln situations which are required to hit that hard.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    No, actually, if you want all of this youre just playing Ranger, or Holo, or Revenant. As I said, damage is so low that you have damage and sustain by default, and the rest are just so easily obtained that its not even much of a challenge.

    Damage is low because you don't build for it, that's all. Hopefully there is people in this game who know how to adapt.

    Ok I guess you indeed are just too ignorant. No, all of those builds I mentioned build for damage. Holo straight runs explosives, alchemy and Holo with a max damage setup. Ranger also goes for max damage. Their damage is low because damage as a whole is low. They build for it, and its still not enough to ever kill anyone. But again, it seems youre just too ignorant.

    Yay Holo isn't a tank build at all, it die and do high damage, I already state about this.

    It doesnt ever die in a 1v1. It also doesnt do high damage, just among the highest right now, which is still low. Do I have to remind you that Obindo never killed a single Holo in a 1v1 even as power Rev? Or that the fight would be so long and pointless, that a zerk ranger decided to dance with the holo rather than to fight? Yeah, by your logic its a "tank build".

    Did you watch the last mAt ?

    The one where we constantly saw deadlocked 1v1s where no one ever died, to the point that the commentator constantly pointed out that a fight stalled? Yeah I have. Im not sure you have though, given that its another example of you finding something that disproves your own point.

    Ranger can choose to do damage or sustain on point. If they go full damage, they aren't unkillable.

    Nope. They are unkillable unless outnumbered. They also dont choose. You go damage, and still are unkillable. Standard zerk ranger.

    Condi ranger yep, zerk ranger have to drop point to sustain.

    The unkillable zerk rangers are full damage builds. No one goes for extra sustain on it, that would be a waste. Theyre still unkillable because damage is too low.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Im guessing then its just a coencidence that in MATs, most teams had a Mirage on them, huh? Nope, sadly despite your refusal to leave your fantasy world, Mesmer was a standard pick. Its now when its basically unplayable that you dont see it.

    What did it bring to the table then ?

    .... Good burst damage? What exactly is the point of this question.

    good burst damage when they play kitting clone spec, sure.

    Once again, you seem to not know what mirage was, because that isnt what it was. It was a burst spec.

    ... A 4 seconds condition application who does around 50% life damage isn't a burst spec or we had to defining about which damage a burst spec is a burst spec ?

    The burst rotation applies, what, 4-6 or so stacks of burning, 9-15 stacks of torment and 9+ stacks of confusion, which is pretty lethal? Unless cleansed, it does something like 400% of max health damage, and it can spike a few times.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".

    You dont need blink. Youre using stealth.

    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.

    You dont need a stun, youre using stealth.

    Yeah that's why I said you never play it. No using blink or f3 mean less burst and the opponent who can evade/cast. That's the concept of lock burst.

    No, the reason you said that is because you never play it given that you seem to not understand absolute fundamentals. Not using blink or f3 means the exact same burst and the opponent CANNOT evade/cast. Do you understand what stealth is? Do you understand that if burst happens out of stealth in .1 seconds, when the fastest known human reaction time is .18 seconds its impossible for anyone to react? Yes? Good.

    Sigh,
    Guy as soon as you want to burst a mobile target, which has high chance to have swiftness while you haven't, stealth only isn't sufficient which happen like 80% of the time.

    Tell me, what do you think is faster? A target in-combat with swiftness, or a target out of combat without swiftness? Seems you also forgot PU can give swiftness and Master of Manipulation gives Superspeed. So, whoops?

    Why a target should be out-combat while not the other ?

    Youre a +1 build. You rotate around the map to +1 fights. When you do so, they are in combat. You are not. Its not rocket science.

    Btw, PU boon end at the end of stealth, you clearly can't stack them.

    I dont know who told you this, but its wrong. PU Boons do not magically disappear at the end of stealth.

    And superspeed was nerfed, holo has better uptime.

    Only if using a trait that is not the most common choice right now. Besides, uptime is not relevant when running away.

    You probably don't see the problem from a perma swiftness class but since superspeed on manipulation nerf and stunt on F3 nerf, good luck hitting someone with this burst (who even if you hit has chance of failed thanks to weakness autoproc or other random aoe.).

    Its not hard to do at all. And no, it doesnt fail. There are no "weakness autoprocs". Well, outside of one ranger trait no one ever uses.

    It's not hard to do, it will just fail but you need to try it to figure it out unless you are fighting bot or pillow in gold 1.

    Nope, it wont fail. Its quite reliable, and impossible for the opponent to do anything about if done correctly. Since they cant react since its too fast, and they cant see you.

    Weakness autoprocs on thief attacks, ranger, chaos armor, nec random corrupt. And I 'm questioning if ele has a way to do it.

    Those dont help. They die from the burst before any of those can be applied. Man you really dont even know your own class.

    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.

    3 skills, not 5. You still have blink, you still have invuln, you still have multiple active evades. And of course you can still do things afterwards, you havent even used all of greatswords skills yet, or any of your sword skills.

    Wow 1 sec sword evade, 50 sec CD 2 sec invul. such multiple active evade. :D

    Ah yes, because its 2 seconds not 4. Because its 50 seconds not 42. Because signets of illusion doesnt exist. And youre underselling 1 second of evasion every 8 seconds. Still, thats pretty good, most classes dont get any invulnerability.

    Yay again the 7/7 trailine build. Yes it's 2 seconds because you have a kitten bad clone generation on this builds.

    Man you really love that "7/7 traitline" build lie. Even for your dishonesty, the obsession with that lie is unnatural. Its PU Mesmer. Standard domination, dueling, chaos. It of course isnt 2 seconds because you get 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker alone.

    Man you have to choose between signet of illusion or arcane thievery there is nothing to debate here.

    I never said the opposite.

    This burst used mental anguish so no 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker, no.

    Are you unfamiliar with bountiful blades?

    It's no dishonesty, it's the fact you can have all trait and all ulitity in one build.

    The dishonesty is implying that the build isnt possible. Except it is. And its just straight up the meta version.

    Yeas it's 50 sec because you don't take illusion.

    True, thats for Mirage moreso. But hey, thats also a mesmer build, which you should know.

    And guess what, if you take signet of illusion, you lose your "arcane thievery" condiclear.

    Thats choices for ya. But fun fact, even without that, it still blows thief out of the water, who has 1 evade on 90 seconds and one on 30 seconds, and nothing else.

    Ask sind if he die versus core PU mesmer with just "1 evade on 90 second and one on 30 seconds" when he duel misha.

    That fight rarely ever happened, but there were 2 outcomes. The thief doesnt see the Mesmer and gets instantly downed. Or they briefly clash, realise they cant kill the other, and disengage and go elsewhere. Now let me remind you again. What happens if a thief fights a spellbreaker, and if a Mesmer fights a spellbreaker. You will find the mesmer will survive far better, because his survivability is vastly superior.

    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.

    There arent really any classes that can push this amount of damage anywhere near as fast and unavoidable.

    Just look at auto please.

    2k auto with a half second cast time vs 17k burst within .1 second. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmm. Yeah Idk about you, but this one seems obvious to me. The burst is way better.

    Was talking about out of burst period.

    Which I assume is because you ignore the burst period because its inconvenient. Dishonest, Im afraid.

    Becasue again a one burst with 50% chances of fail is worse than 3 70% lower burst with 50% chances of fail.

    Except its one burst with 0% chance to fail (ok, lets say 0.01%. Sometimes they randomly dodge for no reason, but its extremely unlikely). Second, thats not how it works either.

    Btw it's better to have 3 times 7-k output with 50% chances of fail than 1 time 17k with 50% chances of fail. That's why no top players streamed on mes.

    Except the many many streamers that did. But you dont let reality get in the way, do you?

    How much is many for you ?
    They rarely do it and when they do, they either rage about how op mesmer is while barely perform with it.

    There were about as many Mesmer streamers as spellbreaker or Weaver, if not more. Thats how many. And no, not rarely at all.

    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    You dont think a lot of true things. Just your fantasy world most of the time.

    Yeah I'm my world thieves haven't bad evade uptime :D .

    Yup. Thats an imaginary fantasy world alright. Oh whats this? Is this the standard thief build featuring no active evades outside of daggerstorm, and only a single extra dodge from agility, that even requires burning one of the only 2 condi clears? Which is of course far below what most classes, including Mesmer, have? Im shocked, shocked I tell you. Well, not actually that shocked. Its pretty clear youre living in a fantasy world.

    This build is about stealth.

    Which is useless for in-combat survivability.

    Whiwh is enough to do what this build is for, you should compare it to PU burst, not to condi mirage.

    The comparision is simple. PU Burst has far better survivability. Its not even remotely close. If mesmers survivability is a 5/10, thieves is a 1/10.

    Even with this with signet of agility + endurance thief it has better evade uptime than a mes yeah. And the core version compesate with vigor.

    :lol: Man your ignorance knows no bounds. The only "endurance" thief gets outside of agility is 25 on steal. Thats nothing. Compared to that, 1 second evade every 8 seconds blows both of those combined out of the water. No, it has much worse evade uptime. And the core version doesnt, and never used any more vigor than this version. I really suggest learning about thief before saying such hilariously wrong statements.

    Steal is on a 20 sec CD. Watching thieves stream, they regulary steal vigor and combining with the base 10, they can maintain pretty good uptime on this.

    Is it now?. I strongly recommend you stop talking about a class you clearly dont even understand the basics of. And what yo ualso see in those streams, is their vigor gets ripped immediately, and they dont have any for another 20 seconds. Meanwhile the Mesmer can get it back much quicker. Why do you think constant application of swiftness is better than one big swiftness buff?

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    It was just as important, actually. But I guess that is what you hated. The fact that dueling mattered.

    Not really, it was more about having overpowered buttons.

    Spoken like a bad player who didnt understand the previous meta at all. Of course, it wasnt. It was about skillful play and timing.

    Like it is. Dunno why you find it hartd to time more than before calling it easy lol.

    I dont find it hard to time right now at all. I just observed that timing right now not only is irrelevant. Its outright the wrong play. The optimal play is to spam everything except knockbacks on cooldown. The knockbacks are the only thing you time, as well as stunbreaks for those. Thats 1 thing every, hm, 20+ seconds? Yeah, how engaging. Thats the difference. Before you had to time, or you lost. No you have to not time to be optimal.

    If I don't rupt every nec heal I have high chances to die. So saying timing is nothing is false. And it was just an exeample, many keyskill on profession alway had to be rupt/blocked.

    If youre playing an unviable class, maybe, but then you die anyway. If youre playing full damage holo, full damage ranger or full damage rev, there is no chance at all for you to ever die against any other class in a 1v1. There are no keyskills that have to interrupted. You can basically ignore interrupting skills altogether.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Ah, a lie to misdirect. Sorry, but no. The PU Mesmer standard build used all of those. Distortion is on every Mesmers toolbar, Auspicious Anguish is what you pick in Chaos Master traitslot, and Arcane Thievery was always an option. Man you really dont know when to accept that youve lost.

    So average 2 sc invul on 50 cd because you are unlikely to have 3 clones up to perfect distor who clear 2 condi.
    A condiclear who pop when you are stuck.
    AT on 20 sec CD.

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Wait did we lived in a CC spam meta so this trait was so powerful....

    Just to inform your ignorance, dazes count. And yeah, we had a lot of dazes. Like, a lot of dazes. Plus spellbreakers had their whole arsenal of CC. Oh and a few condi builds used fear, which also counts.

    So because of everyone rollfacing prepatch, this trait is good, nice.

    Strawman. Nice. No, it was good because cc is a common way of punishing missteps and setting up damage skills. Quite the opposite, if people were facerolling, the trait wouldve been awful, because all the dazes get out of the way immediately and then you just get the conditions ticked down on you. But of course, thats not surprising. If you facerolled pre-patch you instantly 100% lost, because it was a high-skill meta. The trait was good because it was a high-skill meta.

    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?

    Then the Mesmer just runs away and doesnt die. Its a +1 class, remember.

    Btw, to counter this, just play one of the 4 class with reveal and enjoy you freekill.

    I see you fundamentally dont understand how the build works. Reveal is useless against it, just as it is against thief. Because they use stealth out of combat, and reveal is only useable in-combat.

    No 4 seconds on distortion is kitten paperplay if you don't play staff and/or DE you will not get thoses 4 sec in real situation. AT is 3 as mentionned.

    Yup, I got AT mixed up with mantra. And nah, 4 seconds is pretty doable.

    Versus
    4 conditions cleared on 18 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist. Not sure why you go for such a painfully obvious lie, but this skill doesnt exist.

    Open metabattle, look at withdraw : clear chill, cripple, immobilise, torment + give an evade.

    Oh, so many levels of dishonest. First, D/P uses Hide in Shadow, not withdraw. Second, withdraws cooldown is 25 seconds, not 18. Third, 3 out of those are not damaging conditions, which is not what people refer to when they say "condis". Though I find it funny you forgot HiS.

    1 on 35 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist? Ill be honest, I dont even have a guess here what youre trying to refer to.

    Traited roll for initiative, again just the metabattle build looked.

    40 second cooldown, not 35. Neither Trickster, nor RfI are used.

    3 on 30 sec CD.

    Exists. Signet of Agility. Your only other source of evade other than daggerstorm.

    Yeah because withdraw, rool for initiative aren't evade at all.

    Theyre not played. So yes, they arent evades if theyre not played.

    3 on 50 sec CD.

    Exists. Shadowstep, your main stunbreak. Quite valuable.

    Mean in 3 min :
    The thief clear 73 condi, mesmer clear 40 condi. But yeah such op.

    Lets fix it. In 3 minutes, the thief clears 18 from Agility (if used off cooldown) and 9 from shadowstep. Thats 27 in 3 minutes. By comparision, Mesmer can clear at the very least 117 off of arcane thievery alone, and more if he is hit by daze or stuns or knockbacks or knockdowns or any other CC. And thats not counting distortion. Yeah its no comparision.

    I want this arcane thievery version lol.
    Btw do the math again, there is not comparision yeah.

    Ok, lets do it. Mesmer has 3 every 25, 1 every 30 (prestige), 2 every 50 (the trait) plus 2 every, lets say, 10 seconds (low-rolling it with how much daze there is about, but lets be fair I suppose). Plus the invuln from distortion. In 3 minutes thats 21+9+6+36 =72 . On the other hand, thief is 3 per 30, 3 per 50 and lets say 4 per 30 (not entirely accurate because confusion is rare and youd rather remove torment, but hey). Thats 18+9+24=51. No comparision, alright, thief is quite a bit lower.

    Yeah I was looking at the core version linked on metabattle.
    2 every 10 seconds barely happen in duel unless you fight a bot who has no clue about your build.
    You should know that no-damaging condition can be more lethal than the damaging one.
    Mean there is a reason there is overall more thieves than mesmers since they halves mesmers output by 50% 3 times and it's not only because of infiltrator's arrow.

    No, 2 every 10 seconds happened every time. It was actually a lot more than 2 every 10 seconds, but I was making a conservative estimate. And not really, no. Non-damage conditions are only relevant in drawn out fights. Thief and Mesmer both dont do those. And no, the only reason thief is more common is because of infiltrators arrow. Thats literally the only thing about thief that does, or has ever, mattered.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    You have two kind of thieves, thoses who relies on stealth, thoses who relie on evade and few mixt of the two.
    Hopefully this build hadn't all evade a thief can have + stealth.

    Stealth is awful at defense, it doesnt really protect at all. They dont rely on stealth to survive, they dont try to survive at all. They run. Thats actually what all thieves do in a fair fight, they just run. D/P, S/D, P/D, they all die if they were to fight a fair fight.

    So it's op on PU mesmer but awful on thief, poor thieves, we gonna buff their stealth. Yeah this build run, like other similar builds.

    Stealth is awful at defense. Can you not read? Its bad on defense on PU Mesmer as well (which you shouldve noticed because when I talked about the defense of PU Mesmer, I didnt mention stealth once). Stealth is great at offense. For both Mesmer, and thief.

    Ok then we agree.

    And you are one step closer to the truth.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Of course, don't forget to give me Endurance refill options and same vigor uptime as seen in sind vid.

    Only if youre willing to lose your active evades and invuln in exchange for that 1 refill. And the vigor uptime is what youre getting, 10 seconds of vigor on cry of frustration. Thats literally all thief gets. Take it or leave it.

    Active evade will get lose when I have the equivalent weapon survival options.

    You have better weapon survival options. Thiefs 2 currently played builds, D/P and P/D respectively have "almost none" (A bit of blind) and "none at all".

    5 second blind mean you can't wait for it to disapear. Mean it's unblocable on top of that. Should I precise blinding dissipation duration is 1.5 sec on a 25 sec cd ?
    You have way better mobility.

    I didn't know cry of fustration had 20 sec CD.

    Neither does steal. Or Swipe. I used a skill with the exact same cooldown as Swipe, and for a reason.

    It's also lovely how you miss the boonsteal effects.

    I dont. I didnt mention them because that also comes out in Mesmers favour, and I figured I wouldnt want to overdo the debunking.

    20 sec vs 25 sec CD. Putting apart the teleport vs condi transfered ratio, the boonsteal part isn't in mesmers favour.

    Steals cooldown is 30. Swipes cooldown is 25. You really need to stop talking about classes you dont know or understand.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    That's why thief hardcounter mesmer.

    Consume plasma is why thief countered condi mesmer. Because its too good of a stolen skill. Take it away, and condi mesmer crushes thief.

    Yep, thanks for mentionning plasma. I was more about that because thief rupt are enough to face most situations, you didn't need a dedicated rupt mesmer to do the job.

    Power Mesmer is not focused on interrupts, its focused on bursts. Power block, if used, is icing on the cake, not the main purpose. And its not even used right now. So Im not even sure what you were trying to say here.

    Power mesmer is focused on burst while going one trick things with all damaging trait = no rupt skills.
    Or on rupt by taking rupt skills but he can't high burst anymore.
    Choices.

    Except Power Mesmer still has illusiory wave and did use mantra of distraction as well. So they had high burst, and they had interrupts. Why do you not know your own class?

    Ho nvm it's useless to have more CC if they can be nullify.

    Oh my, youre once again this close to becoming self-aware. Do you understand what youre saying? "Just having powerful buttons isnt enough if the enemy can just avoid them, I need to set them up". Congratulations, thats the old meta.

    Illusionary wave is far to be on the top best aoe CC in this game.
    Pistol in good but projectile, again I know some similar CC with less duration (2sec) but who are instant or not a projectile while having less CD.

    Illusionary Wave is good. Slightly longer cast time, but much larger range and further knockback than Engi shield 4 4. Magic Bullet is amazing. Its a long stun, on a pretty low cast time and low cooldown. There are no skills that are instant cast or instant travel or have less of a CD. Actually, thats not entirely true, there is one with a lower cast time and instant travel, but with longer CD. Its Signet of Domination. Also on Mesmer. Funny how your own argument backfires.

    Come on near every meta pop instant aoe CC, often on ring, no on wave. Only rev ulti has better animation but gives superspeed.

    There is no instant AoE CC in the entire game. So, yeah thats a load of bull. So maybe dont talk about things you dont know, again.

    Magic bullet is good. I just check the 2 sec skill I had in mind, it was daze my bad, I'm questionning if weaver didn't had one though.

    They do not.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.

    PU Mesmer. I thought you knew your own class at least to not talk complete nonsense. Evidently, I overestimated you.

    Such a reliable sustain haha. On chance on 5. And boon end as stealth end because of the "imba" duration huhu.

    ... ok I know you dont know much of anything. But not knowing your own class? Thats embarassing. Illusionary Membrane. Look it up.

    ?? 2 sec protection every 15 second is op uptime and give mesmer high survability? Mean you can't even proc it when you need.

    Ontop of the protection you get from PU. Its not op, but its more than thief can say for itself. And it auto-procs if you get hit below 75% thanks to metaphysical (Which also regens health), so you get it when you need it.

    Nop you can't stack boon with PU, it's one chance over 3 with 3 seconds duration mean before they put might and swiftness on it, it was possibile but not since this time.

    What is "boon duration"?

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.

    Ok, I guess you just dont know thief or Mesmer. Let me explain you this: Thief can run away better. So if he wants to avoid dying, he can do that, but then he still loses the fight by leaving. Mesmer however survives in a fight far better. Its not even a comparision. More and better active defenses, better baseline health.

    No, not really, thief run away from mes because they have better value rotating but if they want to duel, plasma alone make them win.

    In a 1v1, sure, consume plasma is a big deal. But now let them both face a Rev, or a Warrior, or a Weaver. Who do you think would die in all 3, and who do you think would have a good shot at winning all 3, pre-patch? Spoiler: The thief dies in all 3.

    Because thoses MU were in mesmer favor... Putting apart rev depending on the build, warrior can infinite PB against clones and weaver put condipressure + has condiclear.

    Even if theyre not favoured, Mesmer can survive against them and can win. Thief cannot.

    Yeah can in inverted commas. This thief build can't, like PU burst mesmer can't because it's +1 builds.

    Thief does not have access to any builds that arent +1 builds. Mesmer does. Additionally, PU burst mesmer can survive and win. Its not favoured, by any stretch, but its doable. Thief cannot.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Im afraid you cant. I have already pointed out how many things you said simply contradict reality. You have yet to do the same.

    Apart that your reality isn't universal, if you want.

    Its not my reality, its just reality. And yes, its universal. Kind of in the name.

    Nop, sorry to ring you down to hard reality but it's not that simple.

    You wouldnt know reality if you stared in its face (literally, it seems). So youre not bringing anyone back to reality.

    I wont let other choose my reality, sorry.

    You dont "choose your reality". There is no such thing as "your reality". There is just the reality. What youre choosing is a fantasy world.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    I guess youre ignoring the heat aspect too. I guess its too inconvenient. But as for swiftness, were talking about running away here, arent we? Being able to cover 3 times the distance in a split-second is pretty hard for the other to catch up.

    I guess youre ignoring cripple/chill options.

    No, Im not, those actually get the Mesmer even further ahead. You havent forgotten that teleports arent affected by either, have you?

    Even if it's possible to run after him I will make it simpler for you : if blink is on cooldown (35 sec now) and they aren't on vertical point, the mes will never go out of the holo.

    "If the Mesmers mobility is on cooldown and the Engineers heat isnt too high, the Mesmer cant run away". Besides the fact that you engineered an unlikely and precise scenario just to not be wrong ... you still are wrong. Mesmer still outruns Engineer. Jaunt, remember?

    :) Good luck getting out of a Holo with 450 teleport if there isn't vertical spot.

    Mirage Thrust into Jaunt, into a second mirage thrust into jaunt. Holo is now something like 900 units behind you, and you successfully escaped. No vertical incline needed. Its easy

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.

    No, not really. You just continue to refuse to face the undeniable facts. You keep repeating that lie even after I have debunked it over and over. You even have yet to explain why, if you could take everything in one build, we still had DPS builds with low survivability, bunker builds with high survivability, and support builds.

    You debunker nothing, you are persuaded that the world norms is around few powecreeped things.

    I have debunked everything. Even the whole "powercreeped" nonsense. I have debunked your false ideas of thief, of Mesmer, of the old meta, and everything around it.

    Funny that you think so, I'm already not convinced.

    Youre not big on reality. There is no convincing you. You could see 2 zerk high-damage builds synchronised dancing rather than fighting because they know neither of them will die, and you still try to argue theyre not unkillable in fair fights.

    Hopefully I don't see anyone dancing last mAt, (I didn't watch all match sure but at least in final and semi.).

    Whether they dance, or fight for 7 minutes without conclusion, it makes no difference. Theyre unkillable.

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    For sure I didn't like prepatch overpowered noskill meta.

    Which only existed in your imagination. In reality it was a high-skill meta. The current meta is a noskill meta. Accept reality.

    Nop, you will accept the reality that it was a powercreeped meta and the current meta is a first step to a more healthy game.

    I cant accept a reality that isnt real. It wasnt a "powercrept meta", this is a "powerdipped meta". And its the first to a more unhealthy game. The meta has not been this unhealthy since Cele Ele. Its the biggest step backwards the game has had, and just reverting it would go a long way to improving the game. Or alternatively we up the damage by 20-30%.

    powerdipped is good after years of powercreep. I note that you preferred Mirage with 30 confusion and torment, and chronobunker meta.

    No, powerdip is bad. Powerdip is like powercreep, but far worse. If you wanted to tone down powercreep, sure, but there wasnt as much powercreep as people were arguing to begin with. Right now damage is 20-30% lower than it has ever been in the games history. Thats far too low, and led to this awful meta.

    Man I forget how you say such ridiculously wrong things without hesitation. Its almost impressive how little you care about the truth. But no, what youre saying is wrong, as always.

    Nop, particulary when prepatch it was better to build pressure to survive than building on sustains things.

    Yes, thats why Prot Holo, Boonbeast and Weaver were some of the best builds, Weaver even being arguably one of the strongest classes pre-patch. Again, wrong as always.

    Another example : if you go more sustain traitline on mesmer prepatch, with taken inspiration for example, you will drop pressure and will get hit more, which will overall make you less sustainable than with DPS traitline.#

    Yeah except the most sustainable Mesmer was Chronobunker. So wrong, as always. Nah, the thing is that Mesmer wasnt good at being a bunker build anymore, thats all there is to it. But those who could play bunker, bunker was obviously way more survivable.

    Well, no... the most sustainable mesmer since they "rework" chrono is signet mesmer and it was way before the patch.

    Disagreeing with the truth doesnt make it less true. Signet mesmer is and always was less tanky than chronobunker.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    main damage from clone auto with one telegraphied pistol bleed is a condi burst ok lol. then you come saying 6k is peanut XD.

    The main damage wasnt from clone autos. But I guess trying to educate you is pointless.

    That's why they finish to kill it last patch...

    Yes. Because of its burst. And the fact that people didnt like that it could burst while being effectively untouchable.

    Already answered in this answer, a 4 sec, 50 hp burst isn't a burst if you are talking about what I think. Mean if during the 4 second you can't launch one defensive clic, I'm questionning how did you manage real bursts.

    Its not a 4 second burst, and its 400% of hp, not 50% (with potential upwards). It was a burst spec. Man you really dont know your own class, do you?

    it's weird how you want to have an opinion on everything while only looking at the game from the outdoor of few vids. You want more arguments, look at leadeboard during this time count the mesmers please.

    You mean the leaderboards with a ton of Mirages in the top 100? With tons of Mesmer in every AT and MAT? Yeaaaaaah. Maybe you should learn a bit more before you talk.

    Ha the famous parallel world LB. It seem really a fun world, you should share the portal access to it.

    Its called "reality". Its perhaps not as nice as your fantasy world, but its the only true world. But go ahead, look back at some MATs, and you will find that you were once again wrong, as you always are.

    "Your" reality seems pretty boring.

    Its not "my" reality. Its just reality. Whether its boring or not, its the only true thing. Learn to live with it.

    Nop, I will not let random forum plebs decide for what I should play and find fun. We already know where did it lead.

    And yet you try to decide for others what they should play and find fun, including forcing sidenoders to play boring builds that cant kill each other, and telling them they should find being a waste of time fun. Besides, Im not telling you that. Youre free to dislike the old meta. But you cant say that it was less skilled, because it objectively was far more skilled. As I said its not my reality, its the reality.

    I don't decide anything, I'm defending that we aren't in a tank meta, that people die, and that it's not that boring, you know, discebilise extrapolation from some people like if it was the end of the world.

    You did decide for other people. But as for those, youre wrong on all counts. Its a tank meta. People only die if outnumbered. And its so unbelievably boring a lot of players suddenly left, drastically accelerating the decline. Its so boring people synchronise dancing instead of fighting because thats still more fun.

    That was the problem in your imaginary version of the game that never existed. In reality, every class had multiple choices, even ones drastically different in their goal. Instead, right now is when you have 1 choice per class, other than for Rev and Necro. If youre Engineer, youre explosive holo. If youre ranger, youre Zerk Ranger. If youre guardian, youre firebrand. If youre Ele, youre Tempest. Fun.

    Don't act like if you played all class please, mesmer had realisticly one choice and one meme choice. Most other class were inexistant (mean seeing a ele prepatch was..) or always on the same build.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok I admit, your dishonesty and/or stupidity is breaking me. "You never saw an ele pre-patch". You mean like here, where most teams, including both final teams, use a weaver? That ele you never saw? Man you really just have no qualms about denying reality. Youre right, Mesmer only had 2 choices. Which is far better than the current 0. Unlike right now, where 2 classes arent played at all because theyre unviable, you saw every single class prepatch, because they were all viable. Every single class had multiple builds, unlike right now where only Rev or Necro have more than 1 build. And I am not going to repeat myself once more, so I tell you this: Accept reality, or accept that youre a fool.

    I don't wrote there isn't I wrote they were rare. Mean there were more mes in LB than ele.

    They werent rare at all. They were very common, as you can see in the MAT. But I guess reality is inconvenient.

    Again you only see the game from mAt perspective, mean mesmer mAT representation has nothing to do with LB representation for example.

    LB representation was no different. It pretty much always reflects MAT representation.

    Lol, not at all. You have synergy you can only having with 5 players, not with 2.

    Thats specific teamcomps, but the thing is, those are rare, and theyre still visible on the leaderboard. But no, when it comes to class frequency, theyre nearly identical.

    The line between squishy and tanky still exists, you just have to be more skilled on your rotation to put pressure instead of rollfacing high damage.

    It doesnt. And the second part is as usual the complete opposite of the truth. You have to not be skilled at all on your rotation as opposed to before. You rollface, and thats the optimal damage rotation. Whereas pre-patch, if you facerolled, and I hate that I have to repeat this, YOU INSTANTLY LOST. Let me repeat that so it can finally get through to you. If you facerolled pre-patch, YOU INSTANTLY LOST.

    It does.

    It doesnt. End of story.

    No it does, you can write it as long as you want it will not change anything.

    I dont have to change anything. The objective truth is the line between squishy and tanky doesnt exist. Thats why explosives holo, a glass cannon build in any other meta, is something you called a "tank build". And no matter how much you try to argue against it, this fact will not change.

    I don't consider a build who can be hit for 60% HP during bursting window as "tanky". I remembered tank scrapper who were way more tankier than this.

    Losing 60% hp is meaningless when they can just get it back. What matters is, "can the build be killed without being outnumbered". If no, its a tank build. Right now its no for everyone. So everyone is effectively a tank build.

    Yeah it's not my definition of tank, if the guy has to leave the point 1v1 to sustain back doing kitting (which was they were doing before patch anyway) it's not a tank you know.

    He doesnt. When 1v1ing people are unkillable while always staying on the point. As Ive explained, its so bad that knockbacks are the meta just so you can actually get the enemy off the point. Thats why Weaver is currently not good btw. It doesnt have a good knockback.

    And no you don't instantly lost, you just spammed it until it work.

    Spoken like a true bad player who didnt understand the old meta. No, you instantly lost. If you spammed, it would never work. They use a single defensive skill to cover multiple offensive skills, then youre left with nothing to kill them, and they just kill you for free. But I guess you believing something this wrong, also explains why you thought everyone was always at 15% hp pre-patch. You kept playing horribly, spamming everything and dying as a result, and thought "well they must have had more tools", rather than admitting that you were just playing it all wrong.

    Thanks to powercreep you always had something to launch, mean spamfiesta existe since a long time.

    Except of course, you didnt, cooldowns existed pre-patch, and for the big hits were quite long. But at this point its clear you will just keep denying reality. Go ahead, have fun in your fantasy world. But dont be surprised when reality comes crashing in after this garbage meta makes the playerbase evaporate.

    Yep, it's beein age since we heard of spamfiesta.

    Not really. Spamfiesta is what we have right now. Pre-patch its been ages since we had a spam fiesta. I wanna say, early HoT, maybe?

    There is reason they gut quickness before the rework patch you know, because everyone rollface his toolbar under quickness because the more you spam, the more efficient it was.

    Hahaha. You really are just unable to see how hilariously stupid what youre saying is. Think about it. What happens if you get quickness, then spam everything? The opponent presses the dodge button, and eats even more of your skills. Making you lose even faster. No, quickness was nerfed because people used it when timing well and setting up.

    Of course I'm having fun. And don't worry for the playerbase, she already vanished way before the patch.

    Hey, youre free to like less skilled metas than more skilled ones. You just cant use that to try and deny that this meta is far less skilled. And nah, the playerbase was stagnant, but it was bigger. Its post-patch that it fell off a cliff.

    Yeah like youre free to like brainless high damage meta than the more rotational ones.

    "Brainless high damage meta" makes as much sense as cold fire. Theyre contradictory. High damage metas are always skilled. And the meta isnt more rotational now, its just that rotations are the only thing that matters now, as opposed to before where individual skill also mattered. But just to reiterate. Pre-patch, if you spammed skills, you just lost hard. It was the worst way of playing. This is undeniable, objective fact. Post-patch, if you spam skills youre performing optimally. Its the best way of playing. This too is undeniable, objective fact.

    you just can't impose you skill vision to everyone, mean come on I already arguing with bravan for ages about this.

    I dont "impose" anything. Skillfulness of a meta can be measured. And across all games and genres, the same thing was always true. High damage metas were highly skilled, low damage metas highly unskilled. And GW2 is clearly no different.

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    This thread is not about the meta. It's about "Do you find the game more fun... ?"

    The sPvP/WvW Metas are directly tied to whether or not people find the game more or less fun than before the February balance patch. You commented that nothing changed for you because your build is the same as it was before the patch, so I pointed out that regardless of whether or not your build changed, the meta as a whole definitely did.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Sure with auto who did 2k+ you can cover multiple auto with defensive skill haha. what a joke.

    Why would you care about an auto doing 2k. You do know that, with how slow autos are, that that would take forever to kill even on an enemy with no damage reduction or healing, right? Like, not even the heal skill. No, lets break the strawman. If you spam, that means using all your high damage skills instantly. Stuff like Nade Barrage. And then it all gets covered by one defensive skill, and you lose.

    That's basically why PU burst mesmer is a one pony trick. And also why it's not meta. Because contrary to some other setup once you drop your burst you have nothing.

    Its not meta now because damage is far too low. Your burst fails to even put a dent in anyone, and if you +1 you might as well just play thief if damage isnt that important (which it isnt).

    No it's not meta because it lose the lock part on a "lock burst" spec.

    Once again you dont know your own class. The class didnt do "lock burst" anyway. Stuns were always completely unneccessary. What makes it not meta is straight up the lack of damage. As is the case for many other builds.

    Hahah, sure, that's explain alot of "mesmer is op whine". Not that we already know that most mesmer whiners never play it.
    Just to be clear, out of gold, there is no way opponent will not move. Most opponent have swiftness, the only way you can burst them with only stealth is if they come in front of you, don't cast aoe, don't have aegis, don't have autoproc. Mean the perfect scenario where you have a waiting target to burst isn't real.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    Yeah I don't live in a world where rev stow their elite, for sure.

    Given that that was a pretty standard thing by good players last patch, that says a lot about you.

    I'm sure you face thoses players everyday to figure it out lul.

    Nowadays? Nah. People just faceroll nowadays, so while its still technically correct to do, most dont. Pre-patch? Yeah, a lot. More than I even saw thieves stow-cancelling Shadowshot.

    You usually use shadowshot to counter enemy cast with blind (more than to gap closer mele autoing.), in which stow this is totally absurb.
    Ho wait, what if the opponent stow his attack to thief has to stow his shadowshot then. Stow meta omg.

    You really should learn not to talk about things you dont have a clue about. Because Shadowshot is not at all used for that. The projectile is too slow to reliably do it. Its used as a gapcloser, or just to push damage when theyre not low and in range for heartseekers. And a very common thing to see thieves do is, once theyre in stealth, they shadowshot you, stow-cancel before the damaging part hits, and then backstab you.

    Using shadowshot when the opponent is ready for it will fail miserably, it has animation, even from stealth, as you said the projectile is low.
    They kitten rarely used it to come melee, they will mostly use steal for this.
    The most valuable things with apart the damage is blind.

    That said, all of your bloc can be applied to the 2nd setup. It's just that IMO the more you have to do it, the skillier it is.

    It cant be. As I explained above, you just plain cant afford to delay your damage, so you cant use any of those.

    It can. As I explained, it's childish to understand that you can rollface in the two situation and that the first will be more rewarding because of the pressure who will come on random fails, particulary playing buld with every tools.

    If by childish you meant "as stupid as a childs statements", yes. Because its stupid, and wrong. In the first scenario, facerolling instantly loses you the fight, because you guarantee that you have no pressure whatsoever, and they can just freely kill you. In the second scenario, facerolling is the optimal way of playing, and is guaranteed to maximise your chances of winning.

    Nice you understand that you can spam on the two setup, next you need to figure out that defensive were pretty disparate between classes.

    No, you can only spam on the second setup, the current patch. Pre-patch, spamming was a 100% guaranteed way to lose the fight instantly. Post-patch its the 100% optimal play. And sure, defenses werent exactly the same, but thats not relevant, because fights were still even. One way or another.

    No, on many class you could put pressure just with low CD which mean that you can freely rotate it until opponent defense break.

    3 issues. First, there was no class with low cd high damage that didnt require setup using higher CD skills. Second, they can fight back, yknow? Third, if you spammed everything, you had nothing for a bit, so their defenses wouldnt break.

    Well, we didn't agree about what high damage are, so starting with this, how can you continue arguing about this. Mean 6k isn't peanuts...

    6k when it comes to burst is peanuts. The average class has usually about 20k health. Your burst fails to take off a third.

    6k is peanuts for certain class who has multiple ways to output this, it's not for regular class you know. and it was absurd that 6k+ damage skills had plenty effects tied in pre-patch.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    Yeah it's sad but is is unless you macroed all your skills.

    Nope. How many clicks is 100% irrelevant to how good or effective a class is. Engineer is good despite requiring far more clicks than any other class.

    If you does 4 clics to do the same thing someone do in 1 clic it mean that the one with 1 clic have 4 more skills available so 4 more possibilites. Dunno why you can't understand this simple fact.

    3 issues, again. Seems to be a pattern. First, not all classes have the same number of skills. An Engineer can use 6 skills, and still have more available than a thief. Second, thats ignoring whether or not the "1 button" that did damage needed other skills to be set up. Yknow, like how backstab is 1 skill, but good luck accessing it without black powder into heartseeker. Third, not all skills are equal, so even if you have more available, that doesnt even mean much, a Rev can do more with fewer skills than, say, a Weaver.

    Yeah it's true.

    Slowly youre starting to accept reality. Its progress at least.

    Ho sorry, I miss that's I'm supposed to be dishonnest, thanks for remind me this by not knowing when to stop quoting.
    Then : Backstab hasn't hudge setup, with spamming heartseeker stealth stack, you have a higher burst windows than some class with might/weakness/modifier with lesser duration. + it's always the same combo, you don't have to rely on proc to value them. Not even talking about requiring field rotation for certain class while other just had to throw attacks and it work.

    Plus if you need comboing hard to do the same things as a 1 clic blessed, you have more time to concentrate on rotation and map awarness.

    No idea what youre even trying to say here, but given your track record, its probably wrong.

    The idea is that if the build play for you thanks to easy setup (mean no combo needed), you have more time looking at map rotation.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Yes, now look at the number of backstab or shadowshot thief can do during your burst CD, oops.

    None, because you cant get a backstab off mid-combat, you have to disengage and find a new target? By which point the Mesmers cooldowns are all bck up. You really need to know things before you talk about them. As for shadowshot, you think thats better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab? Yeah. And thats just on the greatsword.

    Yeah It's so hard to stealth from clones or utility to backstab off mid-combat. You really need to go plat3 with a mesmer facing high level thieves.

    How does a clone help a D/P thief to get stealth? ... are you suggesting that people play D/D thief? I mean, kitten, I know you know nothing about thief, but this is sad. As for utilities, if you get hit by a backstab off of a 1 second channel, you mustve seriously messed up.

    Yep I regulary meet D/D thief. Because D/P know they can be rupt when I'm playing MoD.

    .... Wait are you trying to tank your credibility? Admitting that you regularly meet a build so bad its not even a meme build and instead just straight up trolling is not a good thing to do.

    A good thief nowing I play rupt will not play D/P with plethora of rupt windows, that's all. It's wall adaptation, but for this you should understand that there are builds out of S metabattle tiers that will work better in some situations.

    Considered shadowshot prevent casting phantasms, is a mobility skill and hit for 4 to 5k5, I really think it's better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab yeah.

    Your ignorance continues to impress. Shadowshot does not hit anywhere close to 4k to 5k. Thats what backstab hits for. Shadowshot hits for 70% of that, so 2.5-3.5k-ish. Which is a lot lower than phantasmal berserkers damage. And it only prevents casting phantasms if you cant clear the blind which uh, yeah lets just say with GS auto thats pretty trivial. Its a lot worse for sustained damage.

    You want I screenshot every shadowshot > 4k I took ? Just been around 10 yesterday but next time I can capture them if you want.

    Please do show us those magical shadowshots. Oh but do make sure to include context, so we can see its not just a bunch of 25 might vs 25 vuln situations which are required to hit that hard.

    Yep one yesterday : https://ibb.co/0n9rMgm
    I'm pretty sure this game was streamed by someone, will look is I have time is not I will continue screenshot until you accept that you should not play paladin thief.

    Now people can't have CC + damage + mobility + sustain + boons + coffee all in 1 build, at last that the idea behind the patch, and I +1000 this.

    They couldnt pre-patch either. That was just a lie you lot made up. However, funny enough, since damage is so low that its basically all equivalent anyway, post-patch you actually can have all of this in one build.

    If you want to have all of this you will be inneficient, maybe it's the problem in your case.

    No, actually, if you want all of this youre just playing Ranger, or Holo, or Revenant. As I said, damage is so low that you have damage and sustain by default, and the rest are just so easily obtained that its not even much of a challenge.

    Damage is low because you don't build for it, that's all. Hopefully there is people in this game who know how to adapt.

    Ok I guess you indeed are just too ignorant. No, all of those builds I mentioned build for damage. Holo straight runs explosives, alchemy and Holo with a max damage setup. Ranger also goes for max damage. Their damage is low because damage as a whole is low. They build for it, and its still not enough to ever kill anyone. But again, it seems youre just too ignorant.

    Yay Holo isn't a tank build at all, it die and do high damage, I already state about this.

    It doesnt ever die in a 1v1. It also doesnt do high damage, just among the highest right now, which is still low. Do I have to remind you that Obindo never killed a single Holo in a 1v1 even as power Rev? Or that the fight would be so long and pointless, that a zerk ranger decided to dance with the holo rather than to fight? Yeah, by your logic its a "tank build".

    Did you watch the last mAt ?

    The one where we constantly saw deadlocked 1v1s where no one ever died, to the point that the commentator constantly pointed out that a fight stalled? Yeah I have. Im not sure you have though, given that its another example of you finding something that disproves your own point.

    Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.
    You should be genius gamedesigner.

    Ranger can choose to do damage or sustain on point. If they go full damage, they aren't unkillable.

    Nope. They are unkillable unless outnumbered. They also dont choose. You go damage, and still are unkillable. Standard zerk ranger.

    Condi ranger yep, zerk ranger have to drop point to sustain.

    The unkillable zerk rangers are full damage builds. No one goes for extra sustain on it, that would be a waste. Theyre still unkillable because damage is too low.

    Yeah and when counter are powercreeped, many builds can't be played.

    And yet far more builds were playable pre-patch. I mean hell, Mesmer was a standard pick in high level play. So yeah, turns out youre just wrong again.

    Lol, mesmer was a standar pick, yeah sure, with 2 mes on top 100, what a standard compared to some class ratio. What not to read.

    Im guessing then its just a coencidence that in MATs, most teams had a Mirage on them, huh? Nope, sadly despite your refusal to leave your fantasy world, Mesmer was a standard pick. Its now when its basically unplayable that you dont see it.

    What did it bring to the table then ?

    .... Good burst damage? What exactly is the point of this question.

    good burst damage when they play kitting clone spec, sure.

    Once again, you seem to not know what mirage was, because that isnt what it was. It was a burst spec.

    ... A 4 seconds condition application who does around 50% life damage isn't a burst spec or we had to defining about which damage a burst spec is a burst spec ?

    The burst rotation applies, what, 4-6 or so stacks of burning, 9-15 stacks of torment and 9+ stacks of confusion, which is pretty lethal? Unless cleansed, it does something like 400% of max health damage, and it can spike a few times.

    ARE WE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT MIRAGE PRE-PACTH ?
    Just for you to know, the setup was staff/scepter,pistol since a long time.
    How did you 4-6 burning no torch please tell me, are we talking about the 2 second from the obviously slow staff ambush ?
    Where is the torment burst, scepter block ?
    The 7 confusion from confusing image (2 sec cast huh) multiply to 9+ stacks by magic or you count the magic bullet application who will not trigger as the opponent is stunt ?
    And you are so skilled that you launch scepter block during confusing image.
    Again a 5 sec burst, isn't a burst.
    The only burst the mirage meta build had was the pistol phatasm with bleed, you know the only condition you miss to talk about, and it clearly not 400% HP someone.

    Guy describe to me how 6k is peanut on mesmer please, just give me the skill who does 6k and in which context and position.

    Pre-cast mirror blade, use mantra, then when mirror blade finishes, shatter. 13k-17k in a split second. The context is "anyone out of stealth", the position "anywhere out of stealth". Its like thieves backstab, just with more than twice the damage.

    Plus burn blink (the only safe back option in this build to come near the opponent), it's not launch from "anywhere".

    You dont need blink. Youre using stealth.

    Plus F3 stunt to prevent opponent from evade, moving and stack vuln.

    You dont need a stun, youre using stealth.

    Yeah that's why I said you never play it. No using blink or f3 mean less burst and the opponent who can evade/cast. That's the concept of lock burst.

    No, the reason you said that is because you never play it given that you seem to not understand absolute fundamentals. Not using blink or f3 means the exact same burst and the opponent CANNOT evade/cast. Do you understand what stealth is? Do you understand that if burst happens out of stealth in .1 seconds, when the fastest known human reaction time is .18 seconds its impossible for anyone to react? Yes? Good.

    Sigh,
    Guy as soon as you want to burst a mobile target, which has high chance to have swiftness while you haven't, stealth only isn't sufficient which happen like 80% of the time.

    Tell me, what do you think is faster? A target in-combat with swiftness, or a target out of combat without swiftness? Seems you also forgot PU can give swiftness and Master of Manipulation gives Superspeed. So, whoops?

    Why a target should be out-combat while not the other ?

    Youre a +1 build. You rotate around the map to +1 fights. When you do so, they are in combat. You are not. Its not rocket science.

    Why should you run away if you aren't in fight, full health ? I can imagine the scene : coming to you. Ho nop finally I want to go elsewhere, bye. :D

    Btw, PU boon end at the end of stealth, you clearly can't stack them.

    I dont know who told you this, but its wrong. PU Boons do not magically disappear at the end of stealth.

    Do a level 1 mesmer, go to PvP (or minimum level to go in.) use PU, show me how well you "stack" thoses boon please.

    And superspeed was nerfed, holo has better uptime.

    Only if using a trait that is not the most common choice right now. Besides, uptime is not relevant when running away.

    I face holo everyday and I they catch me on no vertical things, I can't escape now the top player @UNOwen.7132 will say that's because I don't know how to use my 10 utility build.

    You probably don't see the problem from a perma swiftness class but since superspeed on manipulation nerf and stunt on F3 nerf, good luck hitting someone with this burst (who even if you hit has chance of failed thanks to weakness autoproc or other random aoe.).

    Its not hard to do at all. And no, it doesnt fail. There are no "weakness autoprocs". Well, outside of one ranger trait no one ever uses.

    It's not hard to do, it will just fail but you need to try it to figure it out unless you are fighting bot or pillow in gold 1.

    Nope, it wont fail. Its quite reliable, and impossible for the opponent to do anything about if done correctly. Since they cant react since its too fast, and they cant see you.

    Sorry I'm not facing bot when I play.
    Maybe I should do a F2P account to see your meta.

    Weakness autoprocs on thief attacks, ranger, chaos armor, nec random corrupt. And I 'm questioning if ele has a way to do it.

    Those dont help. They die from the burst before any of those can be applied. Man you really dont even know your own class.

    :D certainly, certainly, you can't even look at the prove you linked on this build haha.

    So 5 skills with no back options, you basically use all your skills for this burst. Mean you can't do anything for the next 12 to 30 seconds, can't survive after this without team help, can't condiclear (mean if you took 1 weakness from random autoproc or aoe you can't burst.). I didn't even talk about reveal.

    3 skills, not 5. You still have blink, you still have invuln, you still have multiple active evades. And of course you can still do things afterwards, you havent even used all of greatswords skills yet, or any of your sword skills.

    Wow 1 sec sword evade, 50 sec CD 2 sec invul. such multiple active evade. :D

    Ah yes, because its 2 seconds not 4. Because its 50 seconds not 42. Because signets of illusion doesnt exist. And youre underselling 1 second of evasion every 8 seconds. Still, thats pretty good, most classes dont get any invulnerability.

    Yay again the 7/7 trailine build. Yes it's 2 seconds because you have a kitten bad clone generation on this builds.

    Man you really love that "7/7 traitline" build lie. Even for your dishonesty, the obsession with that lie is unnatural. Its PU Mesmer. Standard domination, dueling, chaos. It of course isnt 2 seconds because you get 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker alone.

    Man you have to choose between signet of illusion or arcane thievery there is nothing to debate here.

    I never said the opposite.

    This burst used mental anguish so no 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker, no.

    Are you unfamiliar with bountiful blades?

    Are you so biased that you think bountiful blades existed pre-patch or it's just a mistake ?
    You know before there was the stunt trait of this lockburst build who is now just a burst build with near inexistant chances to hit with the burst.

    It's no dishonesty, it's the fact you can have all trait and all ulitity in one build.

    The dishonesty is implying that the build isnt possible. Except it is. And its just straight up the meta version.

    Currently there is ONE mesmer playing it on gold3/plat. he ins't on LB and it's even worse than before.
    Dunno which meta version did you talk about because there isn't a more meta version of power core.

    Yeas it's 50 sec because you don't take illusion.

    True, thats for Mirage moreso. But hey, thats also a mesmer build, which you should know.

    And guess what, if you take signet of illusion, you lose your "arcane thievery" condiclear.

    Thats choices for ya. But fun fact, even without that, it still blows thief out of the water, who has 1 evade on 90 seconds and one on 30 seconds, and nothing else.

    Ask sind if he die versus core PU mesmer with just "1 evade on 90 second and one on 30 seconds" when he duel misha.

    That fight rarely ever happened, but there were 2 outcomes. The thief doesnt see the Mesmer and gets instantly downed. Or they briefly clash, realise they cant kill the other, and disengage and go elsewhere. Now let me remind you again. What happens if a thief fights a spellbreaker, and if a Mesmer fights a spellbreaker. You will find the mesmer will survive far better, because his survivability is vastly superior.

    Nop, the outcome is : the thief has just to use his better stealth uptime, time 4 skills and it's over.
    A mesmer can't fight a spellbreaker on point because he can free FC on illusions. He can only kite around in this setup and a sniper can do better at this.

    Now compare it to every other meta build who hadn't thoses weakness while putting this amount of damage with multiple separate skills. And as written : multiple hudge damage skill is better a less sensible to random blocs/evade/weakness/cc autoprocs.

    There arent really any classes that can push this amount of damage anywhere near as fast and unavoidable.

    Just look at auto please.

    2k auto with a half second cast time vs 17k burst within .1 second. Hmmmm. Hmmmmmmmm. Yeah Idk about you, but this one seems obvious to me. The burst is way better.

    Was talking about out of burst period.

    Which I assume is because you ignore the burst period because its inconvenient. Dishonest, Im afraid.

    Becasue again a one burst with 50% chances of fail is worse than 3 70% lower burst with 50% chances of fail.

    Except its one burst with 0% chance to fail (ok, lets say 0.01%. Sometimes they randomly dodge for no reason, but its extremely unlikely). Second, thats not how it works either.

    Yeah 0% chances to fail, it's really strange we don't see this 100% chance of hit burst build on every mesmers.
    Ho wait ....
    Again it's really fun going here after a working day. So relaxing.

    Btw it's better to have 3 times 7-k output with 50% chances of fail than 1 time 17k with 50% chances of fail. That's why no top players streamed on mes.

    Except the many many streamers that did. But you dont let reality get in the way, do you?

    How much is many for you ?
    They rarely do it and when they do, they either rage about how op mesmer is while barely perform with it.

    There were about as many Mesmer streamers as spellbreaker or Weaver, if not more. Thats how many. And no, not rarely at all.

    I can list 3 to 4 SB, 1 mesmer on NA while playing in EU and I don't follow weaver so I dunno about them.
    Who are thoses famous many mesmers streamers ?

    Every player who ever use this build should know this.
    Mean we can more more in detail comparing meta build with all tools, with meme burst build who drop everything for damage but I don't think it will be in you favor.

    You dont think a lot of true things. Just your fantasy world most of the time.

    Yeah I'm my world thieves haven't bad evade uptime :D .

    Yup. Thats an imaginary fantasy world alright. Oh whats this? Is this the standard thief build featuring no active evades outside of daggerstorm, and only a single extra dodge from agility, that even requires burning one of the only 2 condi clears? Which is of course far below what most classes, including Mesmer, have? Im shocked, shocked I tell you. Well, not actually that shocked. Its pretty clear youre living in a fantasy world.

    This build is about stealth.

    Which is useless for in-combat survivability.

    Whiwh is enough to do what this build is for, you should compare it to PU burst, not to condi mirage.

    The comparision is simple. PU Burst has far better survivability. Its not even remotely close. If mesmers survivability is a 5/10, thieves is a 1/10.

    Yeah, buff thief, give it more evade, reduce his CD and more stealth option, it's clearly the blacksheep of sustain in GW2.

    Even with this with signet of agility + endurance thief it has better evade uptime than a mes yeah. And the core version compesate with vigor.

    :lol: Man your ignorance knows no bounds. The only "endurance" thief gets outside of agility is 25 on steal. Thats nothing. Compared to that, 1 second evade every 8 seconds blows both of those combined out of the water. No, it has much worse evade uptime. And the core version doesnt, and never used any more vigor than this version. I really suggest learning about thief before saying such hilariously wrong statements.

    Steal is on a 20 sec CD. Watching thieves stream, they regulary steal vigor and combining with the base 10, they can maintain pretty good uptime on this.

    Is it now?. I strongly recommend you stop talking about a class you clearly dont even understand the basics of. And what yo ualso see in those streams, is their vigor gets ripped immediately, and they dont have any for another 20 seconds. Meanwhile the Mesmer can get it back much quicker. Why do you think constant application of swiftness is better than one big swiftness buff?

    NO one will used boonrip on a thief considering it's more valuable on other spec.
    Mesmer has more vigor than thief, yeah give thief 30 sec vigor on steal so he can compete lol. You should stop eating dangerous thins, it's not anymore dreaming here. I'm worried about you health.

    If it wasn't the case I couldn't be plat2 exploiting sidenoders slow.

    What youre "exploiting" is the fact that without +1s, no one dies. It doesnt matter if theyre slow or not, they have to be on the point, since theyre sidenoders. You just make up a weakness yourself in a desperate attempt to justify your unjustifiable position.

    ? Rotating always was more important than individual duelling, you should know this if you watch top stream.

    It was just as important, actually. But I guess that is what you hated. The fact that dueling mattered.

    Not really, it was more about having overpowered buttons.

    Spoken like a bad player who didnt understand the previous meta at all. Of course, it wasnt. It was about skillful play and timing.

    Like it is. Dunno why you find it hartd to time more than before calling it easy lol.

    I dont find it hard to time right now at all. I just observed that timing right now not only is irrelevant. Its outright the wrong play. The optimal play is to spam everything except knockbacks on cooldown. The knockbacks are the only thing you time, as well as stunbreaks for those. Thats 1 thing every, hm, 20+ seconds? Yeah, how engaging. Thats the difference. Before you had to time, or you lost. No you have to not time to be optimal.

    If I don't rupt every nec heal I have high chances to die. So saying timing is nothing is false. And it was just an exeample, many keyskill on profession alway had to be rupt/blocked.

    If youre playing an unviable class, maybe, but then you die anyway. If youre playing full damage holo, full damage ranger or full damage rev, there is no chance at all for you to ever die against any other class in a 1v1. There are no keyskills that have to interrupted. You can basically ignore interrupting skills altogether.

    I'm not a unviable class, the is currently 3 mes top 100 and around 6 top 250. Which is better than last season. Thanks to worry about me thought.

    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer condiclear if you think thief has bad one.

    You mean the class that an auto condi convert that activates on all distortions and disables? The class that has full invulnerability that negates condi damage as well? The class that even has the elusive full condi clear in Arcane Thievery? Yeah I hate to tell you this (actually I dont), but Mesmers was better.

    Ha yeah the legendary 7/7 traitline with 10 utility slot mesmer. No sorry I don't mean this build.

    Ah, a lie to misdirect. Sorry, but no. The PU Mesmer standard build used all of those. Distortion is on every Mesmers toolbar, Auspicious Anguish is what you pick in Chaos Master traitslot, and Arcane Thievery was always an option. Man you really dont know when to accept that youve lost.

    So average 2 sc invul on 50 cd because you are unlikely to have 3 clones up to perfect distor who clear 2 condi.
    A condiclear who pop when you are stuck.
    AT on 20 sec CD.

    Every time you gain distortion or get hit by any disable, including daze. 4 seconds on distortion. And yes, Arcane Thievery that clears 13 conditions every 20 seconds.

    Wait did we lived in a CC spam meta so this trait was so powerful....

    Just to inform your ignorance, dazes count. And yeah, we had a lot of dazes. Like, a lot of dazes. Plus spellbreakers had their whole arsenal of CC. Oh and a few condi builds used fear, which also counts.

    So because of everyone rollfacing prepatch, this trait is good, nice.

    Strawman. Nice. No, it was good because cc is a common way of punishing missteps and setting up damage skills. Quite the opposite, if people were facerolling, the trait wouldve been awful, because all the dazes get out of the way immediately and then you just get the conditions ticked down on you. But of course, thats not surprising. If you facerolled pre-patch you instantly 100% lost, because it was a high-skill meta. The trait was good because it was a high-skill meta.

    Facerolling didn't mean spamming only evade, when you roll properly uour head on you keyboard you go from left to right and vice versa, so you launch one CC every few damaging skills. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
    Mean if on my a condi mes I'm fighting a chaos mes, I will certainly no use F3 while he is on condi pressure you know, it's basics.

    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?

    Then the Mesmer just runs away and doesnt die. Its a +1 class, remember.

    So easy to do after going melee.

    Btw, to counter this, just play one of the 4 class with reveal and enjoy you freekill.

    I see you fundamentally dont understand how the build works. Reveal is useless against it, just as it is against thief. Because they use stealth out of combat, and reveal is only useable in-combat.

    Yep it's the problem, considering the burst haven't a 100% chances of hit (you can even look shadowpass vids if you want a anti-mesmer view he go into it trying to prove it was op.), and even if it hit, it hasn't 100% chances to 100-0 HP, the problem is more about going out of opponent preparing the next burst than landing the initial tickle.

    No 4 seconds on distortion is kitten paperplay if you don't play staff and/or DE you will not get thoses 4 sec in real situation. AT is 3 as mentionned.

    Yup, I got AT mixed up with mantra. And nah, 4 seconds is pretty doable.

    Versus
    4 conditions cleared on 18 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist. Not sure why you go for such a painfully obvious lie, but this skill doesnt exist.

    Open metabattle, look at withdraw : clear chill, cripple, immobilise, torment + give an evade.

    Oh, so many levels of dishonest. First, D/P uses Hide in Shadow, not withdraw. Second, withdraws cooldown is 25 seconds, not 18. Third, 3 out of those are not damaging conditions, which is not what people refer to when they say "condis". Though I find it funny you forgot HiS.

    1 on 35 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist? Ill be honest, I dont even have a guess here what youre trying to refer to.

    Traited roll for initiative, again just the metabattle build looked.

    40 second cooldown, not 35. Neither Trickster, nor RfI are used.

    3 on 30 sec CD.

    Exists. Signet of Agility. Your only other source of evade other than daggerstorm.

    Yeah because withdraw, rool for initiative aren't evade at all.

    Theyre not played. So yes, they arent evades if theyre not played.

    3 on 50 sec CD.

    Exists. Shadowstep, your main stunbreak. Quite valuable.

    Mean in 3 min :
    The thief clear 73 condi, mesmer clear 40 condi. But yeah such op.

    Lets fix it. In 3 minutes, the thief clears 18 from Agility (if used off cooldown) and 9 from shadowstep. Thats 27 in 3 minutes. By comparision, Mesmer can clear at the very least 117 off of arcane thievery alone, and more if he is hit by daze or stuns or knockbacks or knockdowns or any other CC. And thats not counting distortion. Yeah its no comparision.

    I want this arcane thievery version lol.
    Btw do the math again, there is not comparision yeah.

    Ok, lets do it. Mesmer has 3 every 25, 1 every 30 (prestige), 2 every 50 (the trait) plus 2 every, lets say, 10 seconds (low-rolling it with how much daze there is about, but lets be fair I suppose). Plus the invuln from distortion. In 3 minutes thats 21+9+6+36 =72 . On the other hand, thief is 3 per 30, 3 per 50 and lets say 4 per 30 (not entirely accurate because confusion is rare and youd rather remove torment, but hey). Thats 18+9+24=51. No comparision, alright, thief is quite a bit lower.

    Yeah I was looking at the core version linked on metabattle.
    2 every 10 seconds barely happen in duel unless you fight a bot who has no clue about your build.
    You should know that no-damaging condition can be more lethal than the damaging one.
    Mean there is a reason there is overall more thieves than mesmers since they halves mesmers output by 50% 3 times and it's not only because of infiltrator's arrow.

    No, 2 every 10 seconds happened every time. It was actually a lot more than 2 every 10 seconds, but I was making a conservative estimate. And not really, no. Non-damage conditions are only relevant in drawn out fights. Thief and Mesmer both dont do those. And no, the only reason thief is more common is because of infiltrators arrow. Thats literally the only thing about thief that does, or has ever, mattered.

    When you are under chill when a zerk reaper jump on you, you fear way more the non-damaging condition than the damaging one, same when a zerk war immobilize you, somes class slow/weakness you so you can't counter pressure etc.
    Clearing non damaging condition can't be considered as useless.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    You have two kind of thieves, thoses who relies on stealth, thoses who relie on evade and few mixt of the two.
    Hopefully this build hadn't all evade a thief can have + stealth.

    Stealth is awful at defense, it doesnt really protect at all. They dont rely on stealth to survive, they dont try to survive at all. They run. Thats actually what all thieves do in a fair fight, they just run. D/P, S/D, P/D, they all die if they were to fight a fair fight.

    So it's op on PU mesmer but awful on thief, poor thieves, we gonna buff their stealth. Yeah this build run, like other similar builds.

    Stealth is awful at defense. Can you not read? Its bad on defense on PU Mesmer as well (which you shouldve noticed because when I talked about the defense of PU Mesmer, I didnt mention stealth once). Stealth is great at offense. For both Mesmer, and thief.

    Ok then we agree.

    And you are one step closer to the truth.

    Only because you backward on precision, don't be happy too fast.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Of course, don't forget to give me Endurance refill options and same vigor uptime as seen in sind vid.

    Only if youre willing to lose your active evades and invuln in exchange for that 1 refill. And the vigor uptime is what youre getting, 10 seconds of vigor on cry of frustration. Thats literally all thief gets. Take it or leave it.

    Active evade will get lose when I have the equivalent weapon survival options.

    You have better weapon survival options. Thiefs 2 currently played builds, D/P and P/D respectively have "almost none" (A bit of blind) and "none at all".

    5 second blind mean you can't wait for it to disapear. Mean it's unblocable on top of that. Should I precise blinding dissipation duration is 1.5 sec on a 25 sec cd ?
    You have way better mobility.

    I didn't know cry of fustration had 20 sec CD.

    Neither does steal. Or Swipe. I used a skill with the exact same cooldown as Swipe, and for a reason.

    It's also lovely how you miss the boonsteal effects.

    I dont. I didnt mention them because that also comes out in Mesmers favour, and I figured I wouldnt want to overdo the debunking.

    20 sec vs 25 sec CD. Putting apart the teleport vs condi transfered ratio, the boonsteal part isn't in mesmers favour.

    Steals cooldown is 30. Swipes cooldown is 25. You really need to stop talking about classes you dont know or understand.

    And there isn't a trait in the metab build who reduce swipe duration.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    That's why thief hardcounter mesmer.

    Consume plasma is why thief countered condi mesmer. Because its too good of a stolen skill. Take it away, and condi mesmer crushes thief.

    Yep, thanks for mentionning plasma. I was more about that because thief rupt are enough to face most situations, you didn't need a dedicated rupt mesmer to do the job.

    Power Mesmer is not focused on interrupts, its focused on bursts. Power block, if used, is icing on the cake, not the main purpose. And its not even used right now. So Im not even sure what you were trying to say here.

    Power mesmer is focused on burst while going one trick things with all damaging trait = no rupt skills.
    Or on rupt by taking rupt skills but he can't high burst anymore.
    Choices.

    Except Power Mesmer still has illusiory wave and did use mantra of distraction as well. So they had high burst, and they had interrupts. Why do you not know your own class?

    NO, core power mesmer use mantra of pain. You even wrote it and the 10 utility build still doesn't exist after trying to make it a reality since 3 answers.
    Illusiory wave ins't "intterupts" you don't interrupt keyskill with a 0.5 visible cast CC. Another lie, but come on it's probably your best post looking at this.

    Ho nvm it's useless to have more CC if they can be nullify.

    Oh my, youre once again this close to becoming self-aware. Do you understand what youre saying? "Just having powerful buttons isnt enough if the enemy can just avoid them, I need to set them up". Congratulations, thats the old meta.

    Illusionary wave is far to be on the top best aoe CC in this game.
    Pistol in good but projectile, again I know some similar CC with less duration (2sec) but who are instant or not a projectile while having less CD.

    Illusionary Wave is good. Slightly longer cast time, but much larger range and further knockback than Engi shield 4 4. Magic Bullet is amazing. Its a long stun, on a pretty low cast time and low cooldown. There are no skills that are instant cast or instant travel or have less of a CD. Actually, thats not entirely true, there is one with a lower cast time and instant travel, but with longer CD. Its Signet of Domination. Also on Mesmer. Funny how your own argument backfires.

    Come on near every meta pop instant aoe CC, often on ring, no on wave. Only rev ulti has better animation but gives superspeed.

    There is no instant AoE CC in the entire game. So, yeah thats a load of bull. So maybe dont talk about things you dont know, again.

    Gard bump ? Necro fear ? Ranger glyph ? I'm pretty sure ele has one too and some more are at less than 0.5 cast time. such lod of bull, you look tired.

    Magic bullet is good. I just check the 2 sec skill I had in mind, it was daze my bad, I'm questionning if weaver didn't had one though.

    They do not.

    Can do the same for "lower defense" with better evade on skill.

    The most played build, D/P has close to no evade on skill. And Mesmers is far better, especially when you add on the protection, the baseline higher health, the potential aegis, the full kitten invulnerability. Yeah I dont know why you think thief had better survivability than Mesmer, theirs was way worse.

    Exchange evade for stealth wow. kitten protection are you talking about, the mighty 7/7 traitline ? The 'potential aegis' XD.

    PU Mesmer. I thought you knew your own class at least to not talk complete nonsense. Evidently, I overestimated you.

    Such a reliable sustain haha. On chance on 5. And boon end as stealth end because of the "imba" duration huhu.

    ... ok I know you dont know much of anything. But not knowing your own class? Thats embarassing. Illusionary Membrane. Look it up.

    ?? 2 sec protection every 15 second is op uptime and give mesmer high survability? Mean you can't even proc it when you need.

    Ontop of the protection you get from PU. Its not op, but its more than thief can say for itself. And it auto-procs if you get hit below 75% thanks to metaphysical (Which also regens health), so you get it when you need it.

    Nop you can't stack boon with PU, it's one chance over 3 with 3 seconds duration mean before they put might and swiftness on it, it was possibile but not since this time.

    What is "boon duration"?

    Ha now, not only having 7/7 traitline, and 10 utilities, this build had also all gear, nice, I surely feel strong playing it.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF survivability with MESMER because it's way better on mesmer. Ho and don't miss the perma swiftness too hm.

    Ok, I guess you just dont know thief or Mesmer. Let me explain you this: Thief can run away better. So if he wants to avoid dying, he can do that, but then he still loses the fight by leaving. Mesmer however survives in a fight far better. Its not even a comparision. More and better active defenses, better baseline health.

    No, not really, thief run away from mes because they have better value rotating but if they want to duel, plasma alone make them win.

    In a 1v1, sure, consume plasma is a big deal. But now let them both face a Rev, or a Warrior, or a Weaver. Who do you think would die in all 3, and who do you think would have a good shot at winning all 3, pre-patch? Spoiler: The thief dies in all 3.

    Because thoses MU were in mesmer favor... Putting apart rev depending on the build, warrior can infinite PB against clones and weaver put condipressure + has condiclear.

    Even if theyre not favoured, Mesmer can survive against them and can win. Thief cannot.

    Yeah can in inverted commas. This thief build can't, like PU burst mesmer can't because it's +1 builds.

    Thief does not have access to any builds that arent +1 builds. Mesmer does. Additionally, PU burst mesmer can survive and win. Its not favoured, by any stretch, but its doable. Thief cannot.

    Yeah thieves never win 1v1. It's all opponent fault to play worse build or don't be reactive enough.

    Well you get the idea. I don't know from which powercreeped planet you live but yeah we don't play the same game.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.

    It seems we dont. I play GW2. You play some fantasy version you made up in your mind.
    Mean such an argument that I can use it too, pretty fun to do the answer I think I will get used to it.

    Im afraid you cant. I have already pointed out how many things you said simply contradict reality. You have yet to do the same.

    Apart that your reality isn't universal, if you want.

    Its not my reality, its just reality. And yes, its universal. Kind of in the name.

    Nop, sorry to ring you down to hard reality but it's not that simple.

    You wouldnt know reality if you stared in its face (literally, it seems). So youre not bringing anyone back to reality.

    I wont let other choose my reality, sorry.

    You dont "choose your reality". There is no such thing as "your reality". There is just the reality. What youre choosing is a fantasy world.

    Stay in yours then. And let people enjoy others.

    Engineer had enough mobility to after a mes and enough damage to spike.

    Mirage? Nope, Mirage could outrun an Engineer ezpz. Core Mesmer? Perhaps, but core Mesmer isnt a very mobile class either. And the only Holo that spiked was Explosive or Kinetic holo, but those didnt have sustain.

    It's been age since mirage couldn't outrun an engineer, with jump and superspeed, the only way for a mes to get out of a engi is vertical teleport. Maybe with staff and sword it could maintain the distance but this setup isn't played since PoF beginning and confusion hate.

    I dont think Mirage ever couldnt outrun an Engineer, but I get the feeling that that isnt what you wanted to say. Fun fact: Superspeed is the same as swiftness out of combat. Another fun fact: Engineers leap is the same as Mirages sword leap. More fun facts: Mesmer also has 2 teleports, which Engineer doesnt have. You should learn your own class.

    :D putting apart the fact that one is on a 2 sec CD while the other burn your evade yeah. Than one have high switness not the other and one has better superspeed uptime yeah in a parallel world it can work. Ho and you miss jump shot.

    I guess youre ignoring the heat aspect too. I guess its too inconvenient. But as for swiftness, were talking about running away here, arent we? Being able to cover 3 times the distance in a split-second is pretty hard for the other to catch up.

    I guess youre ignoring cripple/chill options.

    No, Im not, those actually get the Mesmer even further ahead. You havent forgotten that teleports arent affected by either, have you?

    Even if it's possible to run after him I will make it simpler for you : if blink is on cooldown (35 sec now) and they aren't on vertical point, the mes will never go out of the holo.

    "If the Mesmers mobility is on cooldown and the Engineers heat isnt too high, the Mesmer cant run away". Besides the fact that you engineered an unlikely and precise scenario just to not be wrong ... you still are wrong. Mesmer still outruns Engineer. Jaunt, remember?

    :) Good luck getting out of a Holo with 450 teleport if there isn't vertical spot.

    Mirage Thrust into Jaunt, into a second mirage thrust into jaunt. Holo is now something like 900 units behind you, and you successfully escaped. No vertical incline needed. Its easy

    And during this time, he don't use any jump/lead, ins't under swiftness, don't put immobilize/cripple/chill. Just after patch they could even mortar pewpewting.

    When I play +1 I clearly make choice : near to inexistant condiclear, can't fight on point. Mean even non damaging condi like weakness are counter to me. But you probably never play it.

    Right now I only play core Grenade Engineer. But remember, I used to play Thief. You make a choice. Just like the sidenoder and everyone else makes a choice. Sidenoders cant +1. +1 cant sidenode. Thats pretty much all youre saying.

    You got it ! Dunno why you wrote I want choice while I support a patch that drop powercreep to force player making choice instead of having all tools in 1 set.

    Because and I hate the fact that I have to repeat it this often NO ONE HAD ALL THE TOOLS IN 1 SET PRE PATCH, THEY ONLY DO NOW. Maybe if I make it as loud and obvious as possible, it gets through to you. Anyway, the patch didnt "drop powercreep", it introduced "powerdip". Something so much worse than powercreep, its extremely rare that any dev was stupid enough to do it, and as a result its name isnt as prevalent. Anyway, this choice existed pre-patch. Now, the choice doesnt really eixst, everyone is +1 and sidenoder at the same time.

    you dig your grave guy.

    No, not really. You just continue to refuse to face the undeniable facts. You keep repeating that lie even after I have debunked it over and over. You even have yet to explain why, if you could take everything in one build, we still had DPS builds with low survivability, bunker builds with high survivability, and support builds.

    You debunker nothing, you are persuaded that the world norms is around few powecreeped things.

    I have debunked everything. Even the whole "powercreeped" nonsense. I have debunked your false ideas of thief, of Mesmer, of the old meta, and everything around it.

    Funny that you think so, I'm already not convinced.

    Youre not big on reality. There is no convincing you. You could see 2 zerk high-damage builds synchronised dancing rather than fighting because they know neither of them will die, and you still try to argue theyre not unkillable in fair fights.

    Hopefully I don't see anyone dancing last mAt, (I didn't watch all match sure but at least in final and semi.).

    Whether they dance, or fight for 7 minutes without conclusion, it makes no difference. Theyre unkillable.

    Already anwer up : Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    For sure I didn't like prepatch overpowered noskill meta.

    Which only existed in your imagination. In reality it was a high-skill meta. The current meta is a noskill meta. Accept reality.

    Nop, you will accept the reality that it was a powercreeped meta and the current meta is a first step to a more healthy game.

    I cant accept a reality that isnt real. It wasnt a "powercrept meta", this is a "powerdipped meta". And its the first to a more unhealthy game. The meta has not been this unhealthy since Cele Ele. Its the biggest step backwards the game has had, and just reverting it would go a long way to improving the game. Or alternatively we up the damage by 20-30%.

    powerdipped is good after years of powercreep. I note that you preferred Mirage with 30 confusion and torment, and chronobunker meta.

    No, powerdip is bad. Powerdip is like powercreep, but far worse. If you wanted to tone down powercreep, sure, but there wasnt as much powercreep as people were arguing to begin with. Right now damage is 20-30% lower than it has ever been in the games history. Thats far too low, and led to this awful meta.

    Powercreep is what make all game look the same, destroy class diversity and make game boring as hell.

    Man I forget how you say such ridiculously wrong things without hesitation. Its almost impressive how little you care about the truth. But no, what youre saying is wrong, as always.

    Nop, particulary when prepatch it was better to build pressure to survive than building on sustains things.

    Yes, thats why Prot Holo, Boonbeast and Weaver were some of the best builds, Weaver even being arguably one of the strongest classes pre-patch. Again, wrong as always.

    Another example : if you go more sustain traitline on mesmer prepatch, with taken inspiration for example, you will drop pressure and will get hit more, which will overall make you less sustainable than with DPS traitline.#

    Yeah except the most sustainable Mesmer was Chronobunker. So wrong, as always. Nah, the thing is that Mesmer wasnt good at being a bunker build anymore, thats all there is to it. But those who could play bunker, bunker was obviously way more survivable.

    Well, no... the most sustainable mesmer since they "rework" chrono is signet mesmer and it was way before the patch.

    Disagreeing with the truth doesnt make it less true. Signet mesmer is and always was less tanky than chronobunker.

    ... are you this underrate or you just don't know what are you talking about ?
    What in chrono give sustain ?
    The heal on wells ? clone generation from core signet + blind or reflect bypass this easily.
    The shield ? OH sword did the same with not the "phantasm who failed top op if the opponent evade" side effect.
    Precognition well ? invul on signet bypass them.
    Not even talking about shatter reset, boosted heal.
    How the kitten can core signet be less tankier than destroyed chrono pre-patch, just how ?

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    main damage from clone auto with one telegraphied pistol bleed is a condi burst ok lol. then you come saying 6k is peanut XD.

    The main damage wasnt from clone autos. But I guess trying to educate you is pointless.

    That's why they finish to kill it last patch...

    Yes. Because of its burst. And the fact that people didnt like that it could burst while being effectively untouchable.

    Already answered in this answer, a 4 sec, 50 hp burst isn't a burst if you are talking about what I think. Mean if during the 4 second you can't launch one defensive clic, I'm questionning how did you manage real bursts.

    Its not a 4 second burst, and its 400% of hp, not 50% (with potential upwards). It was a burst spec. Man you really dont know your own class, do you?

    It's a 4 seconds burst, it's not 400% HP, we aren't talking about PoF start mirage but about pre-patch mirage.
    Mean if every mesmers whiners are persuaded that we are in the PoF launch state, that explain many things.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    You did decide for other people. But as for those, youre wrong on all counts. Its a tank meta. People only die if outnumbered. And its so unbelievably boring a lot of players suddenly left, drastically accelerating the decline. Its so boring people synchronise dancing instead of fighting because thats still more fun.

    Sorry I fail to see the dancing people last mAt, but ho it's because they were outnumbering or fighting, which is basically : playing the game.

    Thats specific teamcomps, but the thing is, those are rare, and theyre still visible on the leaderboard. But no, when it comes to class frequency, theyre nearly identical.

    Which mean that mAT frequency and LB frequency are differents, thanks.

    He doesnt. When 1v1ing people are unkillable while always staying on the point. As Ive explained, its so bad that knockbacks are the meta just so you can actually get the enemy off the point. Thats why Weaver is currently not good btw. It doesnt have a good knockback.

    I don't need knoback to pressure enough dps class to go out of point hopefully.

    Hahaha. You really are just unable to see how hilariously stupid what youre saying is. Think about it. What happens if you get quickness, then spam everything? The opponent presses the dodge button, and eats even more of your skills. Making you lose even faster. No, quickness was nerfed because people used it when timing well and setting up.

    Don't worry, I'm laughting too.
    What append if powercreep give people low CD so that they can endless spam ?

    "Brainless high damage meta" makes as much sense as cold fire. Theyre contradictory. High damage metas are always skilled. And the meta isnt more rotational now, its just that rotations are the only thing that matters now, as opposed to before where individual skill also mattered. But just to reiterate. Pre-patch, if you spammed skills, you just lost hard. It was the worst way of playing. This is undeniable, objective fact. Post-patch, if you spam skills youre performing optimally. Its the best way of playing. This too is undeniable, objective fact.

    Yeah it was ironical about your meta, you look really tired not seeing this.
    I never had to time more than during this meta to have an impact.

    I dont "impose" anything. Skillfulness of a meta can be measured. And across all games and genres, the same thing was always true. High damage metas were highly skilled, low damage metas highly unskilled. And GW2 is clearly no different.

    Thanks Mr the new famous scientist for this fact, "the higher the damage, the better it is" haha.

    You should give a try to : https://www.koreus.com/jeu/space-is-key.html
    The real skill measurement lol.

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    I dont know who told you this, but its wrong. PU Boons do not magically disappear at the end of stealth.

    Oh yeah lemme get

    uuuuuh
    2 stacks of might

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    This is getting long. Ill skip over the parts that have already been conclusively concluded to you being wrong.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Sure with auto who did 2k+ you can cover multiple auto with defensive skill haha. what a joke.

    Why would you care about an auto doing 2k. You do know that, with how slow autos are, that that would take forever to kill even on an enemy with no damage reduction or healing, right? Like, not even the heal skill. No, lets break the strawman. If you spam, that means using all your high damage skills instantly. Stuff like Nade Barrage. And then it all gets covered by one defensive skill, and you lose.

    That's basically why PU burst mesmer is a one pony trick. And also why it's not meta. Because contrary to some other setup once you drop your burst you have nothing.

    Its not meta now because damage is far too low. Your burst fails to even put a dent in anyone, and if you +1 you might as well just play thief if damage isnt that important (which it isnt).

    No it's not meta because it lose the lock part on a "lock burst" spec.

    Once again you dont know your own class. The class didnt do "lock burst" anyway. Stuns were always completely unneccessary. What makes it not meta is straight up the lack of damage. As is the case for many other builds.

    Hahah, sure, that's explain alot of "mesmer is op whine". Not that we already know that most mesmer whiners never play it.

    No one is complaining about Mesmer being OP.

    Just to be clear, out of gold, there is no way opponent will not move. Most opponent have swiftness, the only way you can burst them with only stealth is if they come in front of you, don't cast aoe, don't have aegis, don't have autoproc. Mean the perfect scenario where you have a waiting target to burst isn't real.

    They dont have to not move. They only have to move slower. Which they always will. So its 100% consistent. They dont need to come in front of you, AoE is not relevant, aegis is not relevant (eats the mantra, but that still leaves you with around 11k-15k damage, and they will not have an autoproc that saves them. Its not a perfect scenario, its the average scenario.

    Feints on skills only work on no instants high damaging skills (basically on warriors.), I never see a rev, thief feint skills, ranger can do it a little but acting like if it was the norm is kitten inacurrate.

    Correct. Unfortunately, thats almost all of them. Rev absolutely feints and staggers skills. Stow-cancelling the elite, not immediately using all sword skills at once, that was the standard. And the same for Holo, or Ranger, or Warrior, or or or. Thief was kind of an exception, because they just attacked you out of stealth. But thats because they are +1 builds, and were not talking about that. On the other hand, now? Yeah they dont do any of that.

    Rev who effectively stow their elite aren't the standard at all I see this maybe 2 time since it exists, they didn't even need to do that to pressure as they have plethora of options. Same for Holo, Ranger to it only on 2 GS and I already state about warrior. And you list 4 class over 9.

    You seem to not see a lot of common things when they dismantle your argument. Im starting to think you just live in a fantasy world and refuse to leave it.

    Yeah I don't live in a world where rev stow their elite, for sure.

    Given that that was a pretty standard thing by good players last patch, that says a lot about you.

    I'm sure you face thoses players everyday to figure it out lul.

    Nowadays? Nah. People just faceroll nowadays, so while its still technically correct to do, most dont. Pre-patch? Yeah, a lot. More than I even saw thieves stow-cancelling Shadowshot.

    You usually use shadowshot to counter enemy cast with blind (more than to gap closer mele autoing.), in which stow this is totally absurb.
    Ho wait, what if the opponent stow his attack to thief has to stow his shadowshot then. Stow meta omg.

    You really should learn not to talk about things you dont have a clue about. Because Shadowshot is not at all used for that. The projectile is too slow to reliably do it. Its used as a gapcloser, or just to push damage when theyre not low and in range for heartseekers. And a very common thing to see thieves do is, once theyre in stealth, they shadowshot you, stow-cancel before the damaging part hits, and then backstab you.

    Using shadowshot when the opponent is ready for it will fail miserably, it has animation, even from stealth, as you said the projectile is low.
    They kitten rarely used it to come melee, they will mostly use steal for this.
    The most valuable things with apart the damage is blind.

    As I said. Dont talk about classes you dont know. Sure, they can dodge it, but thats not a good dodge, and you could punish them for it. Its used almost exclusively for gapclosing, since steal is used when engaging and happens to have a long cooldown. The blind is nice, but the least relevant part of the entire thing.

    Haha, yeah the 13000 output in a build who only do this with no sustain in a 4 clics combo while some spec could throw 6k in 1 clic rotation while having plethora of sustain option. I hope you look smart trying to talk about mesmer dps in PvP.

    I dont know why you mention the number of clicks. They are irrelevant. What is relevant is how much and how fast damage is done. However, yeah, 13k-17k in a split second is a lot better than 6k in more time. Also, you should know this, but Mesmers sustain wasnt any worse than similar classes.

    Lol, such a backward. Thanks confirming 6k ins't peanut. And no the number of clics ins't irrevevant.

    I didnt. And it is absolutely irrelevant.

    Yeah it's sad but is is unless you macroed all your skills.

    Nope. How many clicks is 100% irrelevant to how good or effective a class is. Engineer is good despite requiring far more clicks than any other class.

    If you does 4 clics to do the same thing someone do in 1 clic it mean that the one with 1 clic have 4 more skills available so 4 more possibilites. Dunno why you can't understand this simple fact.

    3 issues, again. Seems to be a pattern. First, not all classes have the same number of skills. An Engineer can use 6 skills, and still have more available than a thief. Second, thats ignoring whether or not the "1 button" that did damage needed other skills to be set up. Yknow, like how backstab is 1 skill, but good luck accessing it without black powder into heartseeker. Third, not all skills are equal, so even if you have more available, that doesnt even mean much, a Rev can do more with fewer skills than, say, a Weaver.

    Yeah it's true.

    Slowly youre starting to accept reality. Its progress at least.

    Ho sorry, I miss that's I'm supposed to be dishonnest, thanks for remind me this by not knowing when to stop quoting.
    Then : Backstab hasn't hudge setup, with spamming heartseeker stealth stack, you have a higher burst windows than some class with might/weakness/modifier with lesser duration. + it's always the same combo, you don't have to rely on proc to value them. Not even talking about requiring field rotation for certain class while other just had to throw attacks and it work.

    Backstab doesnt have a huge setup, but it does have a huge downside. You can use it when engaging, and then youre basically locked out of it for the entire fight, or at best get a frontal backstab which does a lot less damage. The burst window is much lower. The rest of what you say is nonsense, as usual.

    Plus if you need comboing hard to do the same things as a 1 clic blessed, you have more time to concentrate on rotation and map awarness.

    No idea what youre even trying to say here, but given your track record, its probably wrong.

    The idea is that if the build play for you thanks to easy setup (mean no combo needed), you have more time looking at map rotation.

    AND 13k in a split is worst than 6k in more time because in the first case the opponent has only to evade the main burst, in the second case, you can pressure him to hell. You know, the difference between burst vs DPS. Moreover some class had the two.

    Yes, just like you only had to evade the backstab against thief. Only, tiny issue. Both came out of stealth. Both hit their entire damage instantly. You couldnt dodge it. So no, its not worse, its better.

    Yes, now look at the number of backstab or shadowshot thief can do during your burst CD, oops.

    None, because you cant get a backstab off mid-combat, you have to disengage and find a new target? By which point the Mesmers cooldowns are all bck up. You really need to know things before you talk about them. As for shadowshot, you think thats better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab? Yeah. And thats just on the greatsword.

    Yeah It's so hard to stealth from clones or utility to backstab off mid-combat. You really need to go plat3 with a mesmer facing high level thieves.

    How does a clone help a D/P thief to get stealth? ... are you suggesting that people play D/D thief? I mean, kitten, I know you know nothing about thief, but this is sad. As for utilities, if you get hit by a backstab off of a 1 second channel, you mustve seriously messed up.

    Yep I regulary meet D/D thief. Because D/P know they can be rupt when I'm playing MoD.

    .... Wait are you trying to tank your credibility? Admitting that you regularly meet a build so bad its not even a meme build and instead just straight up trolling is not a good thing to do.

    A good thief nowing I play rupt will not play D/P with plethora of rupt windows, that's all. It's wall adaptation, but for this you should understand that there are builds out of S metabattle tiers that will work better in some situations.

    A good thief is a +1 class. They do not care if you use interrupts, they only fight you in a 2v1, and at that point youre dead meat. And they will not kitten themselves by playing the worst weaponset thief has access to, just to beat one already not viable class. There is no situation in the game where D/D works better. Its an unviable playstyle. And by admitting that you see it a lot, you tanked your credibility and your entire argument.

    Considered shadowshot prevent casting phantasms, is a mobility skill and hit for 4 to 5k5, I really think it's better than phantasmal berserker or mind stab yeah.

    Your ignorance continues to impress. Shadowshot does not hit anywhere close to 4k to 5k. Thats what backstab hits for. Shadowshot hits for 70% of that, so 2.5-3.5k-ish. Which is a lot lower than phantasmal berserkers damage. And it only prevents casting phantasms if you cant clear the blind which uh, yeah lets just say with GS auto thats pretty trivial. Its a lot worse for sustained damage.

    You want I screenshot every shadowshot > 4k I took ? Just been around 10 yesterday but next time I can capture them if you want.

    Please do show us those magical shadowshots. Oh but do make sure to include context, so we can see its not just a bunch of 25 might vs 25 vuln situations which are required to hit that hard.

    Yep one yesterday : https://ibb.co/0n9rMgm
    I'm pretty sure this game was streamed by someone, will look is I have time is not I will continue screenshot until you accept that you should not play paladin thief.

    You failed to provide context. And once again, we get the same suspicious damage discrepancy. Double strike does 0.3 damage, shadow shot 1.3125. Meaning shadow shot does about 4.4 times the damage. And yet, the shadow shot actually did 9 times the damage. And theyre both crits. This is normally impossible. Conclusion: 25 might vs 25 vuln situation which is obviously not applicable. So sorry, this again proves the opposite.

    It doesnt ever die in a 1v1. It also doesnt do high damage, just among the highest right now, which is still low. Do I have to remind you that Obindo never killed a single Holo in a 1v1 even as power Rev? Or that the fight would be so long and pointless, that a zerk ranger decided to dance with the holo rather than to fight? Yeah, by your logic its a "tank build".

    Did you watch the last mAt ?

    The one where we constantly saw deadlocked 1v1s where no one ever died, to the point that the commentator constantly pointed out that a fight stalled? Yeah I have. Im not sure you have though, given that its another example of you finding something that disproves your own point.

    Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.
    You should be genius gamedesigner.

    Yes, if were talking about the fact that no one ever dies in a 1v1, kills that happened when they werent in a 1v1 dont count. Are you just trolling now? Also you, who doesnt even understand the fundamentals of game design shouldnt talk.

    ... A 4 seconds condition application who does around 50% life damage isn't a burst spec or we had to defining about which damage a burst spec is a burst spec ?

    The burst rotation applies, what, 4-6 or so stacks of burning, 9-15 stacks of torment and 9+ stacks of confusion, which is pretty lethal? Unless cleansed, it does something like 400% of max health damage, and it can spike a few times.

    ARE WE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT MIRAGE PRE-PACTH ?
    Just for you to know, the setup was staff/scepter,pistol since a long time.
    How did you 4-6 burning no torch please tell me, are we talking about the 2 second from the obviously slow staff ambush ?
    Where is the torment burst, scepter block ?
    The 7 confusion from confusing image (2 sec cast huh) multiply to 9+ stacks by magic or you count the magic bullet application who will not trigger as the opponent is stunt ?
    And you are so skilled that you launch scepter block during confusing image.
    Again a 5 sec burst, isn't a burst.
    The only burst the mirage meta build had was the pistol phatasm with bleed, you know the only condition you miss to talk about, and it clearly not 400% HP someone.

    Oh so many wrong things here. Yes, were talking about pre-patch mirage. Yes, since most skills were instant cast, the staff ambush was used for it. The torment came from maim the disillusioned, which you should know. The confusion comes from Cry of Frustration, which you should know. Its not a 5 second burst, it kills much faster before that.

    Why a target should be out-combat while not the other ?

    Youre a +1 build. You rotate around the map to +1 fights. When you do so, they are in combat. You are not. Its not rocket science.

    Why should you run away if you aren't in fight, full health ? I can imagine the scene : coming to you. Ho nop finally I want to go elsewhere, bye. :D

    ... this sentence doesnt even have anything to do with what Im saying. Youre not running away. Youre ganking. Theyre in combat. You are not. Its not rocket science.

    Btw, PU boon end at the end of stealth, you clearly can't stack them.

    I dont know who told you this, but its wrong. PU Boons do not magically disappear at the end of stealth.

    Do a level 1 mesmer, go to PvP (or minimum level to go in.) use PU, show me how well you "stack" thoses boon please.

    Quite well. Also I still have my old power mesmer around, no need to make a new class. Unlike you, I dont talk about classes I dont know (Which at this point is pretty much just necro).

    And superspeed was nerfed, holo has better uptime.

    Only if using a trait that is not the most common choice right now. Besides, uptime is not relevant when running away.

    I face holo everyday and I they catch me on no vertical things, I can't escape now the top player @UNOwen.7132 will say that's because I don't know how to use my 10 utility build.

    Without looking at your build, I can guess that youre probably screwing up hard, much like pre-patch where you were "always at 15% hp". But your bad play is not the benchmark. Between 2 equal players, the mesmer always escapes.

    You probably don't see the problem from a perma swiftness class but since superspeed on manipulation nerf and stunt on F3 nerf, good luck hitting someone with this burst (who even if you hit has chance of failed thanks to weakness autoproc or other random aoe.).

    Its not hard to do at all. And no, it doesnt fail. There are no "weakness autoprocs". Well, outside of one ranger trait no one ever uses.

    It's not hard to do, it will just fail but you need to try it to figure it out unless you are fighting bot or pillow in gold 1.

    Nope, it wont fail. Its quite reliable, and impossible for the opponent to do anything about if done correctly. Since they cant react since its too fast, and they cant see you.

    Sorry I'm not facing bot when I play.
    Maybe I should do a F2P account to see your meta.

    Strawman. I just explained that they cant react. It works consistently on even the best player. You should know that, its your class. Evidently you dont know your own class.

    Weakness autoprocs on thief attacks, ranger, chaos armor, nec random corrupt. And I 'm questioning if ele has a way to do it.

    Those dont help. They die from the burst before any of those can be applied. Man you really dont even know your own class.

    :D certainly, certainly, you can't even look at the prove you linked on this build haha.

    This sentence makes no sense. You can watch Misha do the bursts, he played the build. The "autoprocs" dont do jack.

    Man you really love that "7/7 traitline" build lie. Even for your dishonesty, the obsession with that lie is unnatural. Its PU Mesmer. Standard domination, dueling, chaos. It of course isnt 2 seconds because you get 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker alone.

    Man you have to choose between signet of illusion or arcane thievery there is nothing to debate here.

    I never said the opposite.

    This burst used mental anguish so no 2 clones off of phantasmal berserker, no.

    Are you unfamiliar with bountiful blades?

    Are you so biased that you think bountiful blades existed pre-patch or it's just a mistake ?
    You know before there was the stunt trait of this lockburst build who is now just a burst build with near inexistant chances to hit with the burst.

    Since when are we talking pre-patch here?

    It's no dishonesty, it's the fact you can have all trait and all ulitity in one build.

    The dishonesty is implying that the build isnt possible. Except it is. And its just straight up the meta version.

    Currently there is ONE mesmer playing it on gold3/plat. he ins't on LB and it's even worse than before.
    Dunno which meta version did you talk about because there isn't a more meta version of power core.

    "meta version" is the best version of the build. But hey, you finally admitted that Mesmer has fewer viable builds now than before, and all builds it had got worse. Progress.

    Yeas it's 50 sec because you don't take illusion.

    True, thats for Mirage moreso. But hey, thats also a mesmer build, which you should know.

    And guess what, if you take signet of illusion, you lose your "arcane thievery" condiclear.

    Thats choices for ya. But fun fact, even without that, it still blows thief out of the water, who has 1 evade on 90 seconds and one on 30 seconds, and nothing else.

    Ask sind if he die versus core PU mesmer with just "1 evade on 90 second and one on 30 seconds" when he duel misha.

    That fight rarely ever happened, but there were 2 outcomes. The thief doesnt see the Mesmer and gets instantly downed. Or they briefly clash, realise they cant kill the other, and disengage and go elsewhere. Now let me remind you again. What happens if a thief fights a spellbreaker, and if a Mesmer fights a spellbreaker. You will find the mesmer will survive far better, because his survivability is vastly superior.

    Nop, the outcome is : the thief has just to use his better stealth uptime, time 4 skills and it's over.
    A mesmer can't fight a spellbreaker on point because he can free FC on illusions. He can only kite around in this setup and a sniper can do better at this.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh boy, you really are a riot. Yeah thief is going to use stealth in-combat, and the mesmer wont just interrupt it or punish and kill him. Yeah its clear you dont know either class. Thief could never kill the mesmer. But the mesmer usually couldnt either. A deadlock. And a mesmer can fight a spellbreaker much better than any thief can.

    Which I assume is because you ignore the burst period because its inconvenient. Dishonest, Im afraid.

    Becasue again a one burst with 50% chances of fail is worse than 3 70% lower burst with 50% chances of fail.

    Except its one burst with 0% chance to fail (ok, lets say 0.01%. Sometimes they randomly dodge for no reason, but its extremely unlikely). Second, thats not how it works either.

    Yeah 0% chances to fail, it's really strange we don't see this 100% chance of hit burst build on every mesmers.
    Ho wait ....

    Which part of "damage is too low so there is no point playing a burst build" is too difficult for you to understand? Or how about "mobility is king for +1s, so Mesmer suffers there"? Are you just too stupid.

    Btw it's better to have 3 times 7-k output with 50% chances of fail than 1 time 17k with 50% chances of fail. That's why no top players streamed on mes.

    Except the many many streamers that did. But you dont let reality get in the way, do you?

    How much is many for you ?
    They rarely do it and when they do, they either rage about how op mesmer is while barely perform with it.

    There were about as many Mesmer streamers as spellbreaker or Weaver, if not more. Thats how many. And no, not rarely at all.

    I can list 3 to 4 SB, 1 mesmer on NA while playing in EU and I don't follow weaver so I dunno about them.
    Who are thoses famous many mesmers streamers ?

    Are you talking about right now? Yeah no one plays Mesmer right now, the patch killed diversity. Did you forget?

    Which is useless for in-combat survivability.

    Whiwh is enough to do what this build is for, you should compare it to PU burst, not to condi mirage.

    The comparision is simple. PU Burst has far better survivability. Its not even remotely close. If mesmers survivability is a 5/10, thieves is a 1/10.

    Yeah, buff thief, give it more evade, reduce his CD and more stealth option, it's clearly the blacksheep of sustain in GW2.

    It is. Why do you think thief only has +1 builds and hasnt had a sidenoder or 1v1 build since 2015? Granted, thief probably shouldnt be able to, but thats why they arent able to.

    Even with this with signet of agility + endurance thief it has better evade uptime than a mes yeah. And the core version compesate with vigor.

    :lol: Man your ignorance knows no bounds. The only "endurance" thief gets outside of agility is 25 on steal. Thats nothing. Compared to that, 1 second evade every 8 seconds blows both of those combined out of the water. No, it has much worse evade uptime. And the core version doesnt, and never used any more vigor than this version. I really suggest learning about thief before saying such hilariously wrong statements.

    Steal is on a 20 sec CD. Watching thieves stream, they regulary steal vigor and combining with the base 10, they can maintain pretty good uptime on this.

    Is it now?. I strongly recommend you stop talking about a class you clearly dont even understand the basics of. And what yo ualso see in those streams, is their vigor gets ripped immediately, and they dont have any for another 20 seconds. Meanwhile the Mesmer can get it back much quicker. Why do you think constant application of swiftness is better than one big swiftness buff?

    NO one will used boonrip on a thief considering it's more valuable on other spec.

    Implying boon rip is not something some classes just have pretty much baseline and throw out a lot. Yeah.

    Mesmer has more vigor than thief, yeah give thief 30 sec vigor on steal so he can compete lol. You should stop eating dangerous thins, it's not anymore dreaming here. I'm worried about you health.

    More? No, not quite. However, Mesmer has more instances of vigor. So boonrip and boon corrupt is far less brutal. And man, you, as someone who always lives in a fantasy world, really shouldnt be talking.

    If I don't rupt every nec heal I have high chances to die. So saying timing is nothing is false. And it was just an exeample, many keyskill on profession alway had to be rupt/blocked.

    If youre playing an unviable class, maybe, but then you die anyway. If youre playing full damage holo, full damage ranger or full damage rev, there is no chance at all for you to ever die against any other class in a 1v1. There are no keyskills that have to interrupted. You can basically ignore interrupting skills altogether.

    I'm not a unviable class, the is currently 3 mes top 100 and around 6 top 250. Which is better than last season. Thanks to worry about me thought.

    Mesmer is an unviable class. It was far better pre-patch. Try playing a viable class, and you see it doesnt matter.

    So because of everyone rollfacing prepatch, this trait is good, nice.

    Strawman. Nice. No, it was good because cc is a common way of punishing missteps and setting up damage skills. Quite the opposite, if people were facerolling, the trait wouldve been awful, because all the dazes get out of the way immediately and then you just get the conditions ticked down on you. But of course, thats not surprising. If you facerolled pre-patch you instantly 100% lost, because it was a high-skill meta. The trait was good because it was a high-skill meta.

    Facerolling didn't mean spamming only evade, when you roll properly uour head on you keyboard you go from left to right and vice versa, so you launch one CC every few damaging skills. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Ah, good old backtracking "oh they facerolled". "Ok they didnt really faceroll, they timed their skills and staggered them, but its still totally facerolly I promise !!1!!1!!". Next you just have to admit "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost".

    Mean if on my a condi mes I'm fighting a chaos mes, I will certainly no use F3 while he is on condi pressure you know, it's basics.

    Thats not what facerolling means. But good job admitting that you were wrong.

    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?

    Then the Mesmer just runs away and doesnt die. Its a +1 class, remember.

    So easy to do after going melee.

    Yes, it is quite easy.

    Btw, to counter this, just play one of the 4 class with reveal and enjoy you freekill.

    I see you fundamentally dont understand how the build works. Reveal is useless against it, just as it is against thief. Because they use stealth out of combat, and reveal is only useable in-combat.

    Yep it's the problem, considering the burst haven't a 100% chances of hit (you can even look shadowpass vids if you want a anti-mesmer view he go into it trying to prove it was op.), and even if it hit, it hasn't 100% chances to 100-0 HP, the problem is more about going out of opponent preparing the next burst than landing the initial tickle.

    It had a near 100% chance of hitting. And for most classes, it instantly downed them. Those were not the issues with it. The fact that it lacked mobility is. +1 classes dont really need to have much damage, they just need to be fast. But as I said, you just dont know your own class.

    No 4 seconds on distortion is kitten paperplay if you don't play staff and/or DE you will not get thoses 4 sec in real situation. AT is 3 as mentionned.

    Yup, I got AT mixed up with mantra. And nah, 4 seconds is pretty doable.

    Versus
    4 conditions cleared on 18 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist. Not sure why you go for such a painfully obvious lie, but this skill doesnt exist.

    Open metabattle, look at withdraw : clear chill, cripple, immobilise, torment + give an evade.

    Oh, so many levels of dishonest. First, D/P uses Hide in Shadow, not withdraw. Second, withdraws cooldown is 25 seconds, not 18. Third, 3 out of those are not damaging conditions, which is not what people refer to when they say "condis". Though I find it funny you forgot HiS.

    1 on 35 sec CD.

    Doesnt exist? Ill be honest, I dont even have a guess here what youre trying to refer to.

    Traited roll for initiative, again just the metabattle build looked.

    40 second cooldown, not 35. Neither Trickster, nor RfI are used.

    3 on 30 sec CD.

    Exists. Signet of Agility. Your only other source of evade other than daggerstorm.

    Yeah because withdraw, rool for initiative aren't evade at all.

    Theyre not played. So yes, they arent evades if theyre not played.

    3 on 50 sec CD.

    Exists. Shadowstep, your main stunbreak. Quite valuable.

    Mean in 3 min :
    The thief clear 73 condi, mesmer clear 40 condi. But yeah such op.

    Lets fix it. In 3 minutes, the thief clears 18 from Agility (if used off cooldown) and 9 from shadowstep. Thats 27 in 3 minutes. By comparision, Mesmer can clear at the very least 117 off of arcane thievery alone, and more if he is hit by daze or stuns or knockbacks or knockdowns or any other CC. And thats not counting distortion. Yeah its no comparision.

    I want this arcane thievery version lol.
    Btw do the math again, there is not comparision yeah.

    Ok, lets do it. Mesmer has 3 every 25, 1 every 30 (prestige), 2 every 50 (the trait) plus 2 every, lets say, 10 seconds (low-rolling it with how much daze there is about, but lets be fair I suppose). Plus the invuln from distortion. In 3 minutes thats 21+9+6+36 =72 . On the other hand, thief is 3 per 30, 3 per 50 and lets say 4 per 30 (not entirely accurate because confusion is rare and youd rather remove torment, but hey). Thats 18+9+24=51. No comparision, alright, thief is quite a bit lower.

    Yeah I was looking at the core version linked on metabattle.
    2 every 10 seconds barely happen in duel unless you fight a bot who has no clue about your build.
    You should know that no-damaging condition can be more lethal than the damaging one.
    Mean there is a reason there is overall more thieves than mesmers since they halves mesmers output by 50% 3 times and it's not only because of infiltrator's arrow.

    No, 2 every 10 seconds happened every time. It was actually a lot more than 2 every 10 seconds, but I was making a conservative estimate. And not really, no. Non-damage conditions are only relevant in drawn out fights. Thief and Mesmer both dont do those. And no, the only reason thief is more common is because of infiltrators arrow. Thats literally the only thing about thief that does, or has ever, mattered.

    When you are under chill when a zerk reaper jump on you, you fear way more the non-damaging condition than the damaging one, same when a zerk war immobilize you, somes class slow/weakness you so you can't counter pressure etc.
    Clearing non damaging condition can't be considered as useless.

    They are in long drawn out fights. Youre a +1 class. You dont have long drawn out fights. In those, you only care about damaging conditions.

    Guy I don't know if you only play class with every tools in slots but you really need to look at what other had. Particulary when EM was removed.
    Hahaha, ok then go to mesmer vigor uptime and you will be in love with thief vigor uptime.

    Ok, lets ignore for a second that youre ignoring mesmers full invulnerability and better access to evading skill. Even then, if thieves vigor gets immediately corrupted, he wont have any for 20 seconds. Mesmers comes up in less than 10. With how common boon corrupt is, thats actually arguably better.

    Wait what in which world mesmer has better access to evading skills than thief.

    In the real world? Have you actually looked at D/P Thief before? Ill give you a spoiler: No evasive skills anywhere to be found outside of the elite. Which is on a 90 seconds cooldown. Blurred Frenzy alone beats all of it. Man you really should know when to quit.

    You have two kind of thieves, thoses who relies on stealth, thoses who relie on evade and few mixt of the two.
    Hopefully this build hadn't all evade a thief can have + stealth.

    Stealth is awful at defense, it doesnt really protect at all. They dont rely on stealth to survive, they dont try to survive at all. They run. Thats actually what all thieves do in a fair fight, they just run. D/P, S/D, P/D, they all die if they were to fight a fair fight.

    So it's op on PU mesmer but awful on thief, poor thieves, we gonna buff their stealth. Yeah this build run, like other similar builds.

    Stealth is awful at defense. Can you not read? Its bad on defense on PU Mesmer as well (which you shouldve noticed because when I talked about the defense of PU Mesmer, I didnt mention stealth once). Stealth is great at offense. For both Mesmer, and thief.

    Ok then we agree.

    And you are one step closer to the truth.

    Only because you backward on precision, don't be happy too fast.

    This sentence makes no sense. And no, its just because you are slowly realising you cant defend your own positions. Soon enough, youll accept you were wrong about everything all along.

    Can everyone note this : @UNOwen.7132 want to exhange THIEF vigor with MESMER vigor because it's way better on mesmer.
    No problem, do it when you want. In the name of all mesmers, we thank you.

    Would you now? Im not sure you would be happy on gaining vigor on cry of frustration for 10 seconds in exchange for losing all other vigor sources.

    Of course, don't forget to give me Endurance refill options and same vigor uptime as seen in sind vid.

    Only if youre willing to lose your active evades and invuln in exchange for that 1 refill. And the vigor uptime is what youre getting, 10 seconds of vigor on cry of frustration. Thats literally all thief gets. Take it or leave it.

    Active evade will get lose when I have the equivalent weapon survival options.

    You have better weapon survival options. Thiefs 2 currently played builds, D/P and P/D respectively have "almost none" (A bit of blind) and "none at all".

    5 second blind mean you can't wait for it to disapear. Mean it's unblocable on top of that. Should I precise blinding dissipation duration is 1.5 sec on a 25 sec cd ?
    You have way better mobility.

    I didn't know cry of fustration had 20 sec CD.

    Neither does steal. Or Swipe. I used a skill with the exact same cooldown as Swipe, and for a reason.

    It's also lovely how you miss the boonsteal effects.

    I dont. I didnt mention them because that also comes out in Mesmers favour, and I figured I wouldnt want to overdo the debunking.

    20 sec vs 25 sec CD. Putting apart the teleport vs condi transfered ratio, the boonsteal part isn't in mesmers favour.

    Steals cooldown is 30. Swipes cooldown is 25. You really need to stop talking about classes you dont know or understand.

    And there isn't a trait in the metab build who reduce swipe duration.

    By 15%. But oh, whats this? Mesmer has the exact same trait? Well now.

    Ho and just for you to know, illusionary wave and magic bullet can't be used to interrupt because you know something about cast time, high animation and range.

    Missing the point again. Your argument was "Mesmers CC is worse". Now youre saying "ok Mesmers CC is way better, but you cant use it to interrupt!!!!1!1!". I even forgot about magic bullet, so thanks for reminding me Mesmers CC is even further above thieves CC.

    That's why thief hardcounter mesmer.

    Consume plasma is why thief countered condi mesmer. Because its too good of a stolen skill. Take it away, and condi mesmer crushes thief.

    Yep, thanks for mentionning plasma. I was more about that because thief rupt are enough to face most situations, you didn't need a dedicated rupt mesmer to do the job.

    Power Mesmer is not focused on interrupts, its focused on bursts. Power block, if used, is icing on the cake, not the main purpose. And its not even used right now. So Im not even sure what you were trying to say here.

    Power mesmer is focused on burst while going one trick things with all damaging trait = no rupt skills.
    Or on rupt by taking rupt skills but he can't high burst anymore.
    Choices.

    Except Power Mesmer still has illusiory wave and did use mantra of distraction as well. So they had high burst, and they had interrupts. Why do you not know your own class?

    NO, core power mesmer use mantra of pain. You even wrote it and the 10 utility build still doesn't exist after trying to make it a reality since 3 answers.

    They all use mantra of pain. Its part of the burst rotation. Stop lying about it being a "10 utility build" and accept the fact that you do not know your own class. That should make you think.

    Illusiory wave ins't "intterupts" you don't interrupt keyskill with a 0.5 visible cast CC. Another lie, but come on it's probably your best post looking at this.

    Yes, you cant interrupt key skills like Glyph of revival, after all .5 seconds isnt enough to stop a checks notes 2 second cast time skill. Wait.

    Ho nvm it's useless to have more CC if they can be nullify.

    Oh my, youre once again this close to becoming self-aware. Do you understand what youre saying? "Just having powerful buttons isnt enough if the enemy can just avoid them, I need to set them up". Congratulations, thats the old meta.

    Illusionary wave is far to be on the top best aoe CC in this game.
    Pistol in good but projectile, again I know some similar CC with less duration (2sec) but who are instant or not a projectile while having less CD.

    Illusionary Wave is good. Slightly longer cast time, but much larger range and further knockback than Engi shield 4 4. Magic Bullet is amazing. Its a long stun, on a pretty low cast time and low cooldown. There are no skills that are instant cast or instant travel or have less of a CD. Actually, thats not entirely true, there is one with a lower cast time and instant travel, but with longer CD. Its Signet of Domination. Also on Mesmer. Funny how your own argument backfires.

    Come on near every meta pop instant aoe CC, often on ring, no on wave. Only rev ulti has better animation but gives superspeed.

    There is no instant AoE CC in the entire game. So, yeah thats a load of bull. So maybe dont talk about things you dont know, again.

    Gard bump ? Necro fear ? Ranger glyph ? I'm pretty sure ele has one too and some more are at less than 0.5 cast time. such lod of bull, you look tired.

    Daze is not a stun. Necro does not have an instant fear (fastest one is .5 seconds). Though fair enough on the absorption, though its a knockback, so they stand up quickly.

    Yeah can in inverted commas. This thief build can't, like PU burst mesmer can't because it's +1 builds.

    Thief does not have access to any builds that arent +1 builds. Mesmer does. Additionally, PU burst mesmer can survive and win. Its not favoured, by any stretch, but its doable. Thief cannot.

    Yeah thieves never win 1v1. It's all opponent fault to play worse build or don't be reactive enough.

    They indeed do not. Unless you include finishing off low health targets. This is like the first lesson a thief learns, "never fight 1v1". Again, dont talk about classes you havent got the faintest clue about.

    I wont let other choose my reality, sorry.

    You dont "choose your reality". There is no such thing as "your reality". There is just the reality. What youre choosing is a fantasy world.

    Stay in yours then. And let people enjoy others.

    There is only one reality. Not "my" reality, the reality. What youre in is a fantasy world.

    :) Good luck getting out of a Holo with 450 teleport if there isn't vertical spot.

    Mirage Thrust into Jaunt, into a second mirage thrust into jaunt. Holo is now something like 900 units behind you, and you successfully escaped. No vertical incline needed. Its easy

    And during this time, he don't use any jump/lead, ins't under swiftness, don't put immobilize/cripple/chill. Just after patch they could even mortar pewpewting.

    He uses two jumps. Thats why its 900 units behind you, not, idk, 1200+. He has swiftness, but it doesnt have him. Holo does not have the means to hit you with any of those 3 conditions from afar (and can only cripple in general). Again, dont talk about classes you dont know about.

    Youre not big on reality. There is no convincing you. You could see 2 zerk high-damage builds synchronised dancing rather than fighting because they know neither of them will die, and you still try to argue theyre not unkillable in fair fights.

    Hopefully I don't see anyone dancing last mAt, (I didn't watch all match sure but at least in final and semi.).

    Whether they dance, or fight for 7 minutes without conclusion, it makes no difference. Theyre unkillable.

    Already anwer up : Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.

    Because we are talking about 1v1s. Of course kills that happen when they arent in 1v1s dont count. Once again, are you just trolling? Or are you legitimately just too ignorant to understand something so simple?

    You seems you think that as before you could take everything in one build, this is why you are som much in trouble, then let me write it for you : "YOU CAN'T TAKE EVERYTHING IN ONE BUILD ANYMORE" it's over. Don't except to do damage with the same number of utilites with no counterpart.

    Nice lie you wrote there. "Anymore" implies that was the case before which as I have explained is objectively not true. Its also objectively not true because its only now, after the patch, that you can. Im not in any trouble. The game is, because the meta is garbage. And you refuse to accept it. Maybe its because your fantasy world distorted your perception fo the pre-patch world. Or maybe its because you like the super-low skill-level it has right now.

    For sure I didn't like prepatch overpowered noskill meta.

    Which only existed in your imagination. In reality it was a high-skill meta. The current meta is a noskill meta. Accept reality.

    Nop, you will accept the reality that it was a powercreeped meta and the current meta is a first step to a more healthy game.

    I cant accept a reality that isnt real. It wasnt a "powercrept meta", this is a "powerdipped meta". And its the first to a more unhealthy game. The meta has not been this unhealthy since Cele Ele. Its the biggest step backwards the game has had, and just reverting it would go a long way to improving the game. Or alternatively we up the damage by 20-30%.

    powerdipped is good after years of powercreep. I note that you preferred Mirage with 30 confusion and torment, and chronobunker meta.

    No, powerdip is bad. Powerdip is like powercreep, but far worse. If you wanted to tone down powercreep, sure, but there wasnt as much powercreep as people were arguing to begin with. Right now damage is 20-30% lower than it has ever been in the games history. Thats far too low, and led to this awful meta.

    Powercreep is what make all game look the same, destroy class diversity and make game boring as hell.

    And thats why after the recent powerdip patch, all games look the same, class diversity was destroyed and the game is boring as all hell. While under the "powercreep" patch, class diversity was strong, the games all looked very different, and were very exciting. Yeah. As I said, powerdip is much worse. And were seeing that in realtime.

    Yeah except the most sustainable Mesmer was Chronobunker. So wrong, as always. Nah, the thing is that Mesmer wasnt good at being a bunker build anymore, thats all there is to it. But those who could play bunker, bunker was obviously way more survivable.

    Well, no... the most sustainable mesmer since they "rework" chrono is signet mesmer and it was way before the patch.

    Disagreeing with the truth doesnt make it less true. Signet mesmer is and always was less tanky than chronobunker.

    ... are you this underrate or you just don't know what are you talking about ?
    What in chrono give sustain ?
    The heal on wells ? clone generation from core signet + blind or reflect bypass this easily.
    The shield ? OH sword did the same with not the "phantasm who failed top op if the opponent evade" side effect.
    Precognition well ? invul on signet bypass them.
    Not even talking about shatter reset, boosted heal.
    How the kitten can core signet be less tankier than destroyed chrono pre-patch, just how ?

    You dont understand how important channeled blocks, AoE invades or healing are, got it. Stop talking about classes you dont know.

    Its really sad that you dont know your own class. So much wrong here. No, Mirage was not a "slow setup kite from condi auto clone". It was a condi burst build. Its sustained damage is and was always low. And no, the setup worked because of the Mesmer, not the thieves. Hell, the thieves barely were around the Mesmer most of the time.

    lmao, it was a condi burst build at PoF begining, then for the history forum whine since patch before prepatch and it's been since the confusion nerf that it's wasn't a condi burst play. "The setup worked because of the mesmer", come one misha on his power core burst build carried this game haha. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    You ... really dont know your own class. kitten. No, it was always a condi burst build, its sustained damage is pretty poor. So wrong, as always. And he didnt carry, but he was instrumental in the victory.

    main damage from clone auto with one telegraphied pistol bleed is a condi burst ok lol. then you come saying 6k is peanut XD.

    The main damage wasnt from clone autos. But I guess trying to educate you is pointless.

    That's why they finish to kill it last patch...

    Yes. Because of its burst. And the fact that people didnt like that it could burst while being effectively untouchable.

    Already answered in this answer, a 4 sec, 50 hp burst isn't a burst if you are talking about what I think. Mean if during the 4 second you can't launch one defensive clic, I'm questionning how did you manage real bursts.

    Its not a 4 second burst, and its 400% of hp, not 50% (with potential upwards). It was a burst spec. Man you really dont know your own class, do you?

    It's a 4 seconds burst, it's not 400% HP, we aren't talking about PoF start mirage but about pre-patch mirage.
    Mean if every mesmers whiners are persuaded that we are in the PoF launch state, that explain many things.

    It isnt, it is, we indeed arent. Youre just ignorant, as always.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    You did decide for other people. But as for those, youre wrong on all counts. Its a tank meta. People only die if outnumbered. And its so unbelievably boring a lot of players suddenly left, drastically accelerating the decline. Its so boring people synchronise dancing instead of fighting because thats still more fun.

    Sorry I fail to see the dancing people last mAt, but ho it's because they were outnumbering or fighting, which is basically : playing the game.

    If they were fighting 1v1, they were wasting time. Its not "playing the game", its playing a checkout simulator. Dreadfully dull. The game has gone to hell.

    Thats specific teamcomps, but the thing is, those are rare, and theyre still visible on the leaderboard. But no, when it comes to class frequency, theyre nearly identical.

    Which mean that mAT frequency and LB frequency are differents, thanks.

    Nope. But good try.

    He doesnt. When 1v1ing people are unkillable while always staying on the point. As Ive explained, its so bad that knockbacks are the meta just so you can actually get the enemy off the point. Thats why Weaver is currently not good btw. It doesnt have a good knockback.

    I don't need knoback to pressure enough dps class to go out of point hopefully.

    "hopefully". Sorry to dash your hopes. You do. As I said, its literally the meta. Its the only thing that matters on a micro level. Otherwise you just wait to be outnumbered.

    Hahaha. You really are just unable to see how hilariously stupid what youre saying is. Think about it. What happens if you get quickness, then spam everything? The opponent presses the dodge button, and eats even more of your skills. Making you lose even faster. No, quickness was nerfed because people used it when timing well and setting up.

    Don't worry, I'm laughting too.
    What append if powercreep give people low CD so that they can endless spam ?

    Interesting hypothesis. Sadly for you, its once again just your fantasy world. Such a thing never existed. And if youre laughing about your own stupidity, well at least youre a good sport.

    "Brainless high damage meta" makes as much sense as cold fire. Theyre contradictory. High damage metas are always skilled. And the meta isnt more rotational now, its just that rotations are the only thing that matters now, as opposed to before where individual skill also mattered. But just to reiterate. Pre-patch, if you spammed skills, you just lost hard. It was the worst way of playing. This is undeniable, objective fact. Post-patch, if you spam skills youre performing optimally. Its the best way of playing. This too is undeniable, objective fact.

    Yeah it was ironical about your meta, you look really tired not seeing this.
    I never had to time more than during this meta to have an impact.

    And you also said yourself, and I quote, "People were always running around at 15% hp", which they werent. You had to time far more before. You just failed to time it well. And always got hit by a ton of damage. Now that your inability to time anything doesnt kill you, you suddenly think "hey, it must matter more".

    I dont "impose" anything. Skillfulness of a meta can be measured. And across all games and genres, the same thing was always true. High damage metas were highly skilled, low damage metas highly unskilled. And GW2 is clearly no different.

    Thanks Mr the new famous scientist for this fact, "the higher the damage, the better it is" haha.

    Its a piece of old game design knowledge. There is a cap, of course, but yeah, its a fact. A fact youre too ignorant to understand.

    But this is getting long and tiresome, so lets wrap it up. This new meta is objectively far less skilled. The objectively correct way to play now is to spam mindlessly off cooldown without ever timing it. If you did so pre-patch, it was objectively the worst way to play and instantly lost you the game. The new meta leads to sidenoders having no agency, and to insanely boring matches. And players noticed. Thats why the playerbase took a major hit. The only solution is to revert most of the patch. Or you let the game die. So have fun with your no-skill meta that kills the game.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    This is getting long. Ill skip over the parts that have already been conclusively concluded to you being wrong.

    Thanks, that's already what I did when you ending accepted being wrong on few things. No need to keep already agreed things.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Hahah, sure, that's explain alot of "mesmer is op whine". Not that we already know that most mesmer whiners never play it.

    No one is complaining about Mesmer being OP.

    Hopefully not currently while prepatch, even with mesmer not being the most valuable class, you still had the traditionnal whine. (which was turning into a meme since PoF release.).

    Just to be clear, out of gold, there is no way opponent will not move. Most opponent have swiftness, the only way you can burst them with only stealth is if they come in front of you, don't cast aoe, don't have aegis, don't have autoproc. Mean the perfect scenario where you have a waiting target to burst isn't real.

    They dont have to not move. They only have to move slower. Which they always will. So its 100% consistent. They dont need to come in front of you, AoE is not relevant, aegis is not relevant (eats the mantra, but that still leaves you with around 11k-15k damage, and they will not have an autoproc that saves them. Its not a perfect scenario, its the average scenario.

    You don't run faster while in stealth and it's not with your op 1 chance over 5 to get swiftness than you will cath up class on perma swiftness.
    AoE mean : if it's CC aoe, they will see you coming and it will delay your burst window. If it's damage aoe, they will see you coming. If it's condi aoe, it will cripple your burst. Ofc they are relevant and pretty usual.
    I find funnay that mesmer 100% hit 11k-15k while thief shadowshot only does 2k. 0 bias here.

    Using shadowshot when the opponent is ready for it will fail miserably, it has animation, even from stealth, as you said the projectile is low.
    They kitten rarely used it to come melee, they will mostly use steal for this.
    The most valuable things with apart the damage is blind.

    As I said. Dont talk about classes you dont know. Sure, they can dodge it, but thats not a good dodge, and you could punish them for it. Its used almost exclusively for gapclosing, since steal is used when engaging and happens to have a long cooldown. The blind is nice, but the least relevant part of the entire thing.

    A dodge who prevent 4-5k damage, 5 sec blind and a thief in your kitten damaging you is IMO a good dodge.

    Ho sorry, I miss that's I'm supposed to be dishonnest, thanks for remind me this by not knowing when to stop quoting.
    Then : Backstab hasn't hudge setup, with spamming heartseeker stealth stack, you have a higher burst windows than some class with might/weakness/modifier with lesser duration. + it's always the same combo, you don't have to rely on proc to value them. Not even talking about requiring field rotation for certain class while other just had to throw attacks and it work.

    Backstab doesnt have a huge setup, but it does have a huge downside. You can use it when engaging, and then youre basically locked out of it for the entire fight, or at best get a frontal backstab which does a lot less damage. The burst window is much lower. The rest of what you say is nonsense, as usual.

    The rupt part when traited is what make it highly valuable. The burst window is the time you are in stealth waiting to time your burst while other rely on vuln application or modifier proc for example.

    A good thief nowing I play rupt will not play D/P with plethora of rupt windows, that's all. It's wall adaptation, but for this you should understand that there are builds out of S metabattle tiers that will work better in some situations.

    A good thief is a +1 class. They do not care if you use interrupts, they only fight you in a 2v1, and at that point youre dead meat. And they will not kitten themselves by playing the worst weaponset thief has access to, just to beat one already not viable class. There is no situation in the game where D/D works better. Its an unviable playstyle. And by admitting that you see it a lot, you tanked your credibility and your entire argument.

    A thief coming +1 with his main setup ruptable against a dedicated rupt build couldn't do anything and forced to go away. Will screen next time I see top thief on DD because you only work with proves.

    Yep one yesterday : https://ibb.co/0n9rMgm
    I'm pretty sure this game was streamed by someone, will look is I have time is not I will continue screenshot until you accept that you should not play paladin thief.

    You failed to provide context. And once again, we get the same suspicious damage discrepancy. Double strike does 0.3 damage, shadow shot 1.3125. Meaning shadow shot does about 4.4 times the damage. And yet, the shadow shot actually did 9 times the damage. And theyre both crits. This is normally impossible. Conclusion: 25 might vs 25 vuln situation which is obviously not applicable. So sorry, this again proves the opposite.

    It's the second screen, no problem I will screen more until you accept the truth. And no I haven't 25 might/vuln : I was fighting a ranger and I don't play might build who could be steal.
    It's crazy that even why prooves you can't accept it.

    Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.
    You should be genius gamedesigner.

    Yes, if were talking about the fact that no one ever dies in a 1v1, kills that happened when they werent in a 1v1 dont count. Are you just trolling now? Also you, who doesnt even understand the fundamentals of game design shouldnt talk.

    You talk about the fundamentals of 5v5 conquest who is all about rotating so since launche there is outnumbered situations ?
    No one dies in a 1v1 because thoses who 1v1 aren't the +1, neither the squishy.

    ARE WE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT MIRAGE PRE-PACTH ?
    Just for you to know, the setup was staff/scepter,pistol since a long time.
    How did you 4-6 burning no torch please tell me, are we talking about the 2 second from the obviously slow staff ambush ?
    Where is the torment burst, scepter block ?
    The 7 confusion from confusing image (2 sec cast huh) multiply to 9+ stacks by magic or you count the magic bullet application who will not trigger as the opponent is stunt ?
    And you are so skilled that you launch scepter block during confusing image.
    Again a 5 sec burst, isn't a burst.
    The only burst the mirage meta build had was the pistol phatasm with bleed, you know the only condition you miss to talk about, and it clearly not 400% HP someone.

    Oh so many wrong things here. Yes, were talking about pre-patch mirage. Yes, since most skills were instant cast, the staff ambush was used for it. The torment came from maim the disillusioned, which you should know. The confusion comes from Cry of Frustration, which you should know. Its not a 5 second burst, it kills much faster before that.

    1) staff ambush ins"t instant, it's 1 sec cast with obvious animation.
    2) meta mesmer don't run illusion prepatch.
    3) MtD don't 9 torment and you can't ambush clone and shatter them at the same time.
    4) meta mesmer don't run illusion prepatch and baseline cry of fustration is meh.
    5) Shatter condi burst and ambush condi builds are antagonists. One need clone near target to shatter, the other need clones away to secure the ambushes.

    Do a level 1 mesmer, go to PvP (or minimum level to go in.) use PU, show me how well you "stack" thoses boon please.

    Quite well. Also I still have my old power mesmer around, no need to make a new class. Unlike you, I dont talk about classes I dont know (Which at this point is pretty much just necro).

    Aaaand where is your high protection uptime ? I hope for you you get a "lucky strike" on RNG to highlight us how good it is for this.

    I face holo everyday and I they catch me on no vertical things, I can't escape now the top player @UNOwen.7132 will say that's because I don't know how to use my 10 utility build.

    Without looking at your build, I can guess that youre probably screwing up hard, much like pre-patch where you were "always at 15% hp". But your bad play is not the benchmark. Between 2 equal players, the mesmer always escapes.

    Considering misha spend most games low life as well, I will put my badness apart.

    Sorry I'm not facing bot when I play.
    Maybe I should do a F2P account to see your meta.

    Strawman. I just explained that they cant react. It works consistently on even the best player. You should know that, its your class. Evidently you dont know your own class.

    Good players moves, casts, rotates, they will not stay afking on point wainting to be burst.

    :D certainly, certainly, you can't even look at the prove you linked on this build haha.

    This sentence makes no sense. You can watch Misha do the bursts, he played the build. The "autoprocs" dont do jack.

    And how many bursts he launch that effectively hit ?

    Are you so biased that you think bountiful blades existed pre-patch or it's just a mistake ?
    You know before there was the stunt trait of this lockburst build who is now just a burst build with near inexistant chances to hit with the burst.

    Since when are we talking pre-patch here?

    Since you talk bout core PU burst being "meta" prepatch. And that there is no need to lock before bursting while having high clone production.

    Currently there is ONE mesmer playing it on gold3/plat. he ins't on LB and it's even worse than before.
    Dunno which meta version did you talk about because there isn't a more meta version of power core.

    "meta version" is the best version of the build. But hey, you finally admitted that Mesmer has fewer viable builds now than before, and all builds it had got worse. Progress.

    Yeah so there is no a hypotethic meta version of this.
    Now I never consider this build meta, particulary since you can't secure your burst, the only things valuable in this build, and since they halves mobility.

    Nop, the outcome is : the thief has just to use his better stealth uptime, time 4 skills and it's over.
    A mesmer can't fight a spellbreaker on point because he can free FC on illusions. He can only kite around in this setup and a sniper can do better at this.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh boy, you really are a riot. Yeah thief is going to use stealth in-combat, and the mesmer wont just interrupt it or punish and kill him. Yeah its clear you dont know either class. Thief could never kill the mesmer. But the mesmer usually couldnt either. A deadlock. And a mesmer can fight a spellbreaker much better than any thief can.

    If the thief play S/D versus a rupt mesmer yeah, but it's a lack of knowledge issue. But you probably never go out of your "meta" to see the possibilities and adaptations some players does.
    About SP encouter it's clearly build dependant, post patch during the condi thief hype, come say me mesmer kill a SP faster than a thief.

    Yeah 0% chances to fail, it's really strange we don't see this 100% chance of hit burst build on every mesmers.
    Ho wait ....

    Which part of "damage is too low so there is no point playing a burst build" is too difficult for you to understand? Or how about "mobility is king for +1s, so Mesmer suffers there"? Are you just too stupid.

    It's not about the damage it's about the fact that a monoburst build is less efficient than a multiburst build. Should the multi burst have slighy less output.

    I can list 3 to 4 SB, 1 mesmer on NA while playing in EU and I don't follow weaver so I dunno about them.
    Who are thoses famous many mesmers streamers ?

    Are you talking about right now? Yeah no one plays Mesmer right now, the patch killed diversity. Did you forget?

    Nop I'm talking before the patch. Which mesmers streamed ?

    Yeah, buff thief, give it more evade, reduce his CD and more stealth option, it's clearly the blacksheep of sustain in GW2.

    It is. Why do you think thief only has +1 builds and hasnt had a sidenoder or 1v1 build since 2015? Granted, thief probably shouldnt be able to, but thats why they arent able to.

    Because thief never had hit&run gameplay who allow them to have the MU against few encounter ... because mobility ins't sustain....

    NO one will used boonrip on a thief considering it's more valuable on other spec.

    Implying boon rip is not something some classes just have pretty much baseline and throw out a lot. Yeah.

    Which again is not near to be a normal situation on a +1 class.

    Mesmer has more vigor than thief, yeah give thief 30 sec vigor on steal so he can compete lol. You should stop eating dangerous thins, it's not anymore dreaming here. I'm worried about you health.

    More? No, not quite. However, Mesmer has more instances of vigor. So boonrip and boon corrupt is far less brutal. And man, you, as someone who always lives in a fantasy world, really shouldnt be talking.

    I don't consider 1.5 sec on shatter has a good instances of vigor, the only good instance is 8 sec every 25 sec on a skill you would use to blind or pressuring.
    The 3 sec on crit can't be even considered post-patch as they removed condition on crit.

    I'm not a unviable class, the is currently 3 mes top 100 and around 6 top 250. Which is better than last season. Thanks to worry about me thought.

    Mesmer is an unviable class. It was far better pre-patch. Try playing a viable class, and you see it doesnt matter.

    There is currently more mes in LB than preptach, so at last it seems it less "unviable" than before lol.

    Facerolling didn't mean spamming only evade, when you roll properly your head on you keyboard you go from left to right and vice versa, so you launch one CC every few damaging skills. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Ah, good old backtracking "oh they facerolled". "Ok they didnt really faceroll, they timed their skills and staggered them, but its still totally facerolly I promise !!1!!1!!". Next you just have to admit "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost".

    Even the worst faceroller will not launch all his CC first, then all his damage, then all his sustain. It's basics.¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Mean if on my a condi mes I'm fighting a chaos mes, I will certainly no use F3 while he is on condi pressure you know, it's basics.

    Thats not what facerolling means. But good job admitting that you were wrong.

    Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing. Which has nothing to do with the kind of skills you keep spam.

    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?

    Then the Mesmer just runs away and doesnt die. Its a +1 class, remember.

    So easy to do after going melee.

    Yes, it is quite easy.

    Not on the said build.

    Yep it's the problem, considering the burst haven't a 100% chances of hit (you can even look shadowpass vids if you want a anti-mesmer view he go into it trying to prove it was op.), and even if it hit, it hasn't 100% chances to 100-0 HP, the problem is more about going out of opponent preparing the next burst than landing the initial tickle.

    It had a near 100% chance of hitting. And for most classes, it instantly downed them. Those were not the issues with it. The fact that it lacked mobility is. +1 classes dont really need to have much damage, they just need to be fast. But as I said, you just dont know your own class.

    Look at shadowpass vids, it's a anti-mesmer view at the time this build was the most efficient, just figure out the "high" chance of hitting.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88768/eu-ranked-pvp-on-core-mantra-mesmer/p1
    Mean it's not even my "biased" opinion.

    When you are under chill when a zerk reaper jump on you, you fear way more the non-damaging condition than the damaging one, same when a zerk war immobilize you, somes class slow/weakness you so you can't counter pressure etc.
    Clearing non damaging condition can't be considered as useless.

    They are in long drawn out fights. Youre a +1 class. You dont have long drawn out fights. In those, you only care about damaging conditions.

    Nop, if you are a +1 power class and weakness/high blind pop on you, you clearly don't care about it.

    Only because you backward on precision, don't be happy too fast.

    This sentence makes no sense. And no, its just because you are slowly realising you cant defend your own positions. Soon enough, youll accept you were wrong about everything all along.

    I'm not the one saying PU mesmer, which main sustain is basically around stealth is okish, while thief stealth is bad sustain.

    And there isn't a trait in the metab build who reduce swipe duration.

    By 15%. But oh, whats this? Mesmer has the exact same trait? Well now.

    Glab you admit thief boon steal isn't worst than mesmer boon steal.

    NO, core power mesmer use mantra of pain. You even wrote it and the 10 utility build still doesn't exist after trying to make it a reality since 3 answers.

    They all use mantra of pain. Its part of the burst rotation. Stop lying about it being a "10 utility build" and accept the fact that you do not know your own class. That should make you think.

    No, rupt mesmers use mantra of distraction. Just watch Jazz vids.
    They can't run mantra of pain AND mantra of distraction it's two different purpose on had 2 differents builds synergy.

    Illusiory wave ins't "intterupts" you don't interrupt keyskill with a 0.5 visible cast CC. Another lie, but come on it's probably your best post looking at this.

    Yes, you cant interrupt key skills like Glyph of revival, after all .5 seconds isnt enough to stop a checks notes 2 second cast time skill. Wait.

    You are always in the best situation at 450 range with blink up, when it happend yep, carefully saved your wave for this on a no cover target, nice paper theory.

    Yeah thieves never win 1v1. It's all opponent fault to play worse build or don't be reactive enough.

    They indeed do not. Unless you include finishing off low health targets. This is like the first lesson a thief learns, "never fight 1v1". Again, dont talk about classes you havent got the faintest clue about.

    I should present you plat players who have fun duelling on their thieves. Like I have on my build.

    Stay in yours then. And let people enjoy others.

    There is only one reality. Not "my" reality, the reality. What youre in is a fantasy world.

    Yep and how can you be sure that what you describe is ?

    Already anwer up : Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.

    Because we are talking about 1v1s. Of course kills that happen when they arent in 1v1s dont count. Once again, are you just trolling? Or are you legitimately just too ignorant to understand something so simple?

    You barely 1v1ing, even pre-patch. Mean even if at the beginning, someone 1v1ing close and one of the two blow, the reste of the game isn't even number anymore.
    Why is it so hard understanding that it's normal in 5v5 conquest to have outnumbered situations and that they count ?

    Powercreep is what make all game look the same, destroy class diversity and make game boring as hell.

    And thats why after the recent powerdip patch, all games look the same, class diversity was destroyed and the game is boring as all hell. While under the "powercreep" patch, class diversity was strong, the games all looked very different, and were very exciting. Yeah. As I said, powerdip is much worse. And were seeing that in realtime.

    I don't consider everyone attacking under streoïds with only colors effects who changes as a very exciting different setup.

    ... are you this underrate or you just don't know what are you talking about ?
    What in chrono give sustain ?
    The heal on wells ? clone generation from core signet + blind or reflect bypass this easily.
    The shield ? OH sword did the same with not the "phantasm who failed top op if the opponent evade" side effect.
    Precognition well ? invul on signet bypass them.
    Not even talking about shatter reset, boosted heal.
    How the kitten can core signet be less tankier than destroyed chrono pre-patch, just how ?

    You dont understand how important channeled blocks, AoE invades or healing are, got it. Stop talking about classes you dont know.

    Lol
    Give me the number please or just admit you smoke bad grass. Double F4 alone make signet mes way ahead chrono talking about sustain.

    It's a 4 seconds burst, it's not 400% HP, we aren't talking about PoF start mirage but about pre-patch mirage.
    Mean if every mesmers whiners are persuaded that we are in the PoF launch state, that explain many things.

    It isnt, it is, we indeed arent. Youre just ignorant, as always.

    I give screenshots, show me a prepatch vid about a mesmer playing 400% HP "burst".

    Sorry I fail to see the dancing people last mAt, but ho it's because they were outnumbering or fighting, which is basically : playing the game.


    If they were fighting 1v1, they were wasting time. Its not "playing the game", its playing a checkout simulator. Dreadfully dull. The game has gone to hell.

    They don't waste time, is they don't fight, they lose the point.

    Thats specific teamcomps, but the thing is, those are rare, and theyre still visible on the leaderboard. But no, when it comes to class frequency, theyre nearly identical.

    Which mean that mAT frequency and LB frequency are differents, thanks.

    Nope. But good try.

    Different setup, different frequencies, it's obvious that there is build who only perform wil 5 coordinated guys while other work with only 2 guys.

    I don't need knoback to pressure enough dps class to go out of point hopefully.

    "hopefully". Sorry to dash your hopes. You do. As I said, its literally the meta. Its the only thing that matters on a micro level. Otherwise you just wait to be outnumbered.

    Nop I don't, if a zerk ranger or holo just stay on point while I'm pewpewting them they will die as I'm free to optimal pressure.

    Don't worry, I'm laughting too.
    What append if powercreep give people low CD so that they can endless spam ?

    Interesting hypothesis. Sadly for you, its once again just your fantasy world. Such a thing never existed. And if youre laughing about your own stupidity, well at least youre a good sport.

    Nop, it was real that's also why they increase many CD post patch and gut most quickness uptime.

    Yeah it was ironical about your meta, you look really tired not seeing this.
    I never had to time more than during this meta to have an impact.

    And you also said yourself, and I quote, "People were always running around at 15% hp", which they werent. You had to time far more before. You just failed to time it well. And always got hit by a ton of damage. Now that your inability to time anything doesnt kill you, you suddenly think "hey, it must matter more".

    No, no there were build who can save their HP for the sake of powercreep.

    Thanks Mr the new famous scientist for this fact, "the higher the damage, the better it is" haha.

    Its a piece of old game design knowledge. There is a cap, of course, but yeah, its a fact. A fact youre too ignorant to understand.

    It's only a opium things : "wow I feel so strong seeing high numbers on my screen".

    But this is getting long and tiresome, so lets wrap it up. This new meta is objectively far less skilled. The objectively correct way to play now is to spam mindlessly off cooldown without ever timing it. If you did so pre-patch, it was objectively the worst way to play and instantly lost you the game. The new meta leads to sidenoders having no agency, and to insanely boring matches. And players noticed. Thats why the playerbase took a major hit. The only solution is to revert most of the patch. Or you let the game die. So have fun with your no-skill meta that kills the game.

    Subjectively certainly, now you can let people play (or not play) and wait for next balance.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    This is getting long. Ill skip over the parts that have already been conclusively concluded to you being wrong.

    Thanks, that's already what I did when you ending accepted being wrong on few things. No need to keep already agreed things.

    You mean the things that had no bearing on the entire argument, like Arcane Thievery, right? Because the only who admitted to being wrong on anything of substance was you.

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Hahah, sure, that's explain alot of "mesmer is op whine". Not that we already know that most mesmer whiners never play it.

    No one is complaining about Mesmer being OP.

    Hopefully not currently while prepatch, even with mesmer not being the most valuable class, you still had the traditionnal whine. (which was turning into a meme since PoF release.).

    Pre-patch Mirage was quite powerful, and of course, powerful builds get complaints. Except Spellbreaker.

    Just to be clear, out of gold, there is no way opponent will not move. Most opponent have swiftness, the only way you can burst them with only stealth is if they come in front of you, don't cast aoe, don't have aegis, don't have autoproc. Mean the perfect scenario where you have a waiting target to burst isn't real.

    They dont have to not move. They only have to move slower. Which they always will. So its 100% consistent. They dont need to come in front of you, AoE is not relevant, aegis is not relevant (eats the mantra, but that still leaves you with around 11k-15k damage, and they will not have an autoproc that saves them. Its not a perfect scenario, its the average scenario.

    You don't run faster while in stealth and it's not with your op 1 chance over 5 to get swiftness than you will cath up class on perma swiftness.

    But they run slower in combat. And they will be in combat. You will not.

    AoE mean : if it's CC aoe, they will see you coming and it will delay your burst window. If it's damage aoe, they will see you coming. If it's condi aoe, it will cripple your burst. Ofc they are relevant and pretty usual.

    You would have to be monumetally unlucky for them to hit AoE CC at the right moment. The other 2 dont matter. If theyre using AoE skills, theyre fighting, and you being hit gives them no information.

    I find funnay that mesmer 100% hit 11k-15k while thief shadowshot only does 2k. 0 bias here.

    2k-3k. And yes, there is indeed no bias there, just cold hard math. Turns out 1.3125 damage coefficient is a lot lower than, what was it, 5-6?

    Using shadowshot when the opponent is ready for it will fail miserably, it has animation, even from stealth, as you said the projectile is low.
    They kitten rarely used it to come melee, they will mostly use steal for this.
    The most valuable things with apart the damage is blind.

    As I said. Dont talk about classes you dont know. Sure, they can dodge it, but thats not a good dodge, and you could punish them for it. Its used almost exclusively for gapclosing, since steal is used when engaging and happens to have a long cooldown. The blind is nice, but the least relevant part of the entire thing.

    A dodge who prevent 4-5k damage, 5 sec blind and a thief in your kitten damaging you is IMO a good dodge.

    2-3k. Not 4-5k. Again, dont talk about classes you dont know about. Blind duration doesnt matter, it gets cleared immediately. Its a really bad dodge.

    Ho sorry, I miss that's I'm supposed to be dishonnest, thanks for remind me this by not knowing when to stop quoting.
    Then : Backstab hasn't hudge setup, with spamming heartseeker stealth stack, you have a higher burst windows than some class with might/weakness/modifier with lesser duration. + it's always the same combo, you don't have to rely on proc to value them. Not even talking about requiring field rotation for certain class while other just had to throw attacks and it work.

    Backstab doesnt have a huge setup, but it does have a huge downside. You can use it when engaging, and then youre basically locked out of it for the entire fight, or at best get a frontal backstab which does a lot less damage. The burst window is much lower. The rest of what you say is nonsense, as usual.

    The rupt part when traited is what make it highly valuable. The burst window is the time you are in stealth waiting to time your burst while other rely on vuln application or modifier proc for example.

    Backstab doesnt interrupt, it has a single boonrip. Also, youre not gonna be waiting in stealth, because you wont go into stealth mid-combat, other than when using blinding powder as a stunbreak.

    A good thief nowing I play rupt will not play D/P with plethora of rupt windows, that's all. It's wall adaptation, but for this you should understand that there are builds out of S metabattle tiers that will work better in some situations.

    A good thief is a +1 class. They do not care if you use interrupts, they only fight you in a 2v1, and at that point youre dead meat. And they will not kitten themselves by playing the worst weaponset thief has access to, just to beat one already not viable class. There is no situation in the game where D/D works better. Its an unviable playstyle. And by admitting that you see it a lot, you tanked your credibility and your entire argument.

    A thief coming +1 with his main setup ruptable against a dedicated rupt build couldn't do anything and forced to go away. Will screen next time I see top thief on DD because you only work with proves.

    Yeah, because in a 1v2 where the thief opens with a backstab you will totally have the time to interrupt him without dying. For that matter, why do you think DD fares better? If anything, it has the more interruptible skills.

    Yep one yesterday : https://ibb.co/0n9rMgm
    I'm pretty sure this game was streamed by someone, will look is I have time is not I will continue screenshot until you accept that you should not play paladin thief.

    You failed to provide context. And once again, we get the same suspicious damage discrepancy. Double strike does 0.3 damage, shadow shot 1.3125. Meaning shadow shot does about 4.4 times the damage. And yet, the shadow shot actually did 9 times the damage. And theyre both crits. This is normally impossible. Conclusion: 25 might vs 25 vuln situation which is obviously not applicable. So sorry, this again proves the opposite.

    It's the second screen, no problem I will screen more until you accept the truth. And no I haven't 25 might/vuln : I was fighting a ranger and I don't play might build who could be steal.
    It's crazy that even why prooves you can't accept it.

    Its the second highly suspicious screen. I cant accept what youre showing, because its not the truth, its a lie. Whatever these screenshots are, proof they are not. As I explained. The damage is higher than it can be. If double strike does 600, Shadow Shot can only do 3k. Its basic math. You should be capable of it.

    Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.
    You should be genius gamedesigner.

    Yes, if were talking about the fact that no one ever dies in a 1v1, kills that happened when they werent in a 1v1 dont count. Are you just trolling now? Also you, who doesnt even understand the fundamentals of game design shouldnt talk.

    You talk about the fundamentals of 5v5 conquest who is all about rotating so since launche there is outnumbered situations ?
    No one dies in a 1v1 because thoses who 1v1 aren't the +1, neither the squishy.

    The fundamentals of 5v5 is that outnumbering helps but isnt required. That is no longer the case. No one dies in a 1v1 because damage as a whole is too low. Full stop. The ones who 1v1 are squishy. But squishy when damage is too low is the same as tanky.

    Do a level 1 mesmer, go to PvP (or minimum level to go in.) use PU, show me how well you "stack" thoses boon please.

    Quite well. Also I still have my old power mesmer around, no need to make a new class. Unlike you, I dont talk about classes I dont know (Which at this point is pretty much just necro).

    Aaaand where is your high protection uptime ? I hope for you you get a "lucky strike" on RNG to highlight us how good it is for this.

    Why do you need high uptime? Any amount of protection is better than no protection. Especially when against the highest damage ones.

    I face holo everyday and I they catch me on no vertical things, I can't escape now the top player @UNOwen.7132 will say that's because I don't know how to use my 10 utility build.

    Without looking at your build, I can guess that youre probably screwing up hard, much like pre-patch where you were "always at 15% hp". But your bad play is not the benchmark. Between 2 equal players, the mesmer always escapes.

    Considering misha spend most games low life as well, I will put my badness apart.

    I wouldve thought that after I pointed out your lie here, you wouldve dropped it, but no, guess youre still lying. No, Misha spent the vast majority of his games at medium to high health, only dropping low when messing up or outnumbered. You spent them at low health, because you were always messing up.

    Sorry I'm not facing bot when I play.
    Maybe I should do a F2P account to see your meta.

    Strawman. I just explained that they cant react. It works consistently on even the best player. You should know that, its your class. Evidently you dont know your own class.

    Good players moves, casts, rotates, they will not stay afking on point wainting to be burst.

    How many times do I have to repeat this until you get it? They are moving*. But moving doesnt save them. Because the burst cant be reacted to and is 100% consistent even on moving targets. Christ, how do you not know your own class?

    :D certainly, certainly, you can't even look at the prove you linked on this build haha.

    This sentence makes no sense. You can watch Misha do the bursts, he played the build. The "autoprocs" dont do jack.

    And how many bursts he launch that effectively hit ?

    All of them? Did you not watch the video?

    Are you so biased that you think bountiful blades existed pre-patch or it's just a mistake ?
    You know before there was the stunt trait of this lockburst build who is now just a burst build with near inexistant chances to hit with the burst.

    Since when are we talking pre-patch here?

    Since you talk bout core PU burst being "meta" prepatch. And that there is no need to lock before bursting while having high clone production.

    It was viable pre-patch. Meta, not so much, it was on the lower end. The lock was not irrelevant, but it was also not neccessary. The burst works without it.

    Currently there is ONE mesmer playing it on gold3/plat. he ins't on LB and it's even worse than before.
    Dunno which meta version did you talk about because there isn't a more meta version of power core.

    "meta version" is the best version of the build. But hey, you finally admitted that Mesmer has fewer viable builds now than before, and all builds it had got worse. Progress.

    Yeah so there is no a hypotethic meta version of this.
    Now I never consider this build meta, particulary since you can't secure your burst, the only things valuable in this build, and since they halves mobility.

    A meta version is just the best version. Every build has a meta version, its just not neccessarily that the build itself is meta. The build wasnt meta, since it lacked mobility, but it was viable, since it was a reliable and consistent high burst.

    Nop, the outcome is : the thief has just to use his better stealth uptime, time 4 skills and it's over.
    A mesmer can't fight a spellbreaker on point because he can free FC on illusions. He can only kite around in this setup and a sniper can do better at this.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh boy, you really are a riot. Yeah thief is going to use stealth in-combat, and the mesmer wont just interrupt it or punish and kill him. Yeah its clear you dont know either class. Thief could never kill the mesmer. But the mesmer usually couldnt either. A deadlock. And a mesmer can fight a spellbreaker much better than any thief can.

    If the thief play S/D versus a rupt mesmer yeah, but it's a lack of knowledge issue. But you probably never go out of your "meta" to see the possibilities and adaptations some players does.

    S/D cant kill Mesmer either. No Thief can, damage isnt there. Mesmer will struggle to kill the thief, but its possible.

    About SP encouter it's clearly build dependant, post patch during the condi thief hype, come say me mesmer kill a SP faster than a thief.

    Yeah you wouldve been able to kill much faster. Condi thief had a bit of an issue against burst cleanses and resistance. Warrior has burst cleanses, and resistance. Its sustained condi pressure warrior struggles against, but condi thief doesnt really provide that.

    Yeah 0% chances to fail, it's really strange we don't see this 100% chance of hit burst build on every mesmers.
    Ho wait ....

    Which part of "damage is too low so there is no point playing a burst build" is too difficult for you to understand? Or how about "mobility is king for +1s, so Mesmer suffers there"? Are you just too stupid.

    It's not about the damage it's about the fact that a monoburst build is less efficient than a multiburst build. Should the multi burst have slighy less output.

    Its about the damage. There is no such thign as a "multiburst build". Youre just saying nonsense while trying to defend your increasingly obviously ridiculous statements.

    I can list 3 to 4 SB, 1 mesmer on NA while playing in EU and I don't follow weaver so I dunno about them.
    Who are thoses famous many mesmers streamers ?

    Are you talking about right now? Yeah no one plays Mesmer right now, the patch killed diversity. Did you forget?

    Nop I'm talking before the patch. Which mesmers streamed ?

    Iunno, I didnt care to catch their name. I just saw them on the page.

    Yeah, buff thief, give it more evade, reduce his CD and more stealth option, it's clearly the blacksheep of sustain in GW2.

    It is. Why do you think thief only has +1 builds and hasnt had a sidenoder or 1v1 build since 2015? Granted, thief probably shouldnt be able to, but thats why they arent able to.

    Because thief never had hit&run gameplay who allow them to have the MU against few encounter ... because mobility ins't sustain....

    Yeah thief is "hit and run". It hits someone in a +1, and runs otherwise. There is however no matchup where thief won the 1v1. And mobility indeed isnt sustain. If you can disengage and heal up, so do they.

    NO one will used boonrip on a thief considering it's more valuable on other spec.

    Implying boon rip is not something some classes just have pretty much baseline and throw out a lot. Yeah.

    Which again is not near to be a normal situation on a +1 class.

    It is actually a normal situation, lots of boonrips or corrupts just flying around.

    Mesmer has more vigor than thief, yeah give thief 30 sec vigor on steal so he can compete lol. You should stop eating dangerous thins, it's not anymore dreaming here. I'm worried about you health.

    More? No, not quite. However, Mesmer has more instances of vigor. So boonrip and boon corrupt is far less brutal. And man, you, as someone who always lives in a fantasy world, really shouldnt be talking.

    I don't consider 1.5 sec on shatter has a good instances of vigor, the only good instance is 8 sec every 25 sec on a skill you would use to blind or pressuring.
    The 3 sec on crit can't be even considered post-patch as they removed condition on crit.

    What is "critical infusion"? What is "False Oasis"? What is "Vigor on shatter". Mind you as I said, the total amount is lower, but its more instances. Thief has just the 1. Rip it, and he is screwed. Rip the infusion vigor, and mesmer has 3 more.

    I'm not a unviable class, the is currently 3 mes top 100 and around 6 top 250. Which is better than last season. Thanks to worry about me thought.

    Mesmer is an unviable class. It was far better pre-patch. Try playing a viable class, and you see it doesnt matter.

    There is currently more mes in LB than preptach, so at last it seems it less "unviable" than before lol.

    That is categorically wrong. There were a few pre-patch. There appear to be almost none now. Additionally, there are now no Mesmers in MAT, when pre-patch they were a very common sight. They are far more unviable now. Pre-patch mesmer was good, now its unviable. Simple as that.

    Facerolling didn't mean spamming only evade, when you roll properly your head on you keyboard you go from left to right and vice versa, so you launch one CC every few damaging skills. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Ah, good old backtracking "oh they facerolled". "Ok they didnt really faceroll, they timed their skills and staggered them, but its still totally facerolly I promise !!1!!1!!". Next you just have to admit "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost".

    Even the worst faceroller will not launch all his CC first, then all his damage, then all his sustain. It's basics.¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Thats not facerolling. Come on, the last step is simple. Just say "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost". Its an easy thing to admit.

    Mean if on my a condi mes I'm fighting a chaos mes, I will certainly no use F3 while he is on condi pressure you know, it's basics.

    Thats not what facerolling means. But good job admitting that you were wrong.

    Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing. Which has nothing to do with the kind of skills you keep spam.

    Wow, that is impressive cognitive dissonance. "Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing.". "Oh but they didnt spam skills without timing, they actually timed them to not waste all of them". These 2 things contradict each other. Yeesh.

    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?

    Then the Mesmer just runs away and doesnt die. Its a +1 class, remember.

    So easy to do after going melee.

    Yes, it is quite easy.

    Not on the said build.

    It is. Against anything other than thief, and warrior on flat ground (but pvp hardly has flat ground).

    Yep it's the problem, considering the burst haven't a 100% chances of hit (you can even look shadowpass vids if you want a anti-mesmer view he go into it trying to prove it was op.), and even if it hit, it hasn't 100% chances to 100-0 HP, the problem is more about going out of opponent preparing the next burst than landing the initial tickle.

    It had a near 100% chance of hitting. And for most classes, it instantly downed them. Those were not the issues with it. The fact that it lacked mobility is. +1 classes dont really need to have much damage, they just need to be fast. But as I said, you just dont know your own class.

    Look at shadowpass vids, it's a anti-mesmer view at the time this build was the most efficient, just figure out the "high" chance of hitting.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88768/eu-ranked-pvp-on-core-mantra-mesmer/p1
    Mean it's not even my "biased" opinion.

    Did you watch the video? Every time he went for the out of stealth burst combo, he got it. So yeah, its nearly guaranteed to hit. Man you really can only find videos that show the opposite of what you want to show.

    When you are under chill when a zerk reaper jump on you, you fear way more the non-damaging condition than the damaging one, same when a zerk war immobilize you, somes class slow/weakness you so you can't counter pressure etc.
    Clearing non damaging condition can't be considered as useless.

    They are in long drawn out fights. Youre a +1 class. You dont have long drawn out fights. In those, you only care about damaging conditions.

    Nop, if you are a +1 power class and weakness/high blind pop on you, you clearly don't care about it.

    Yup, you dont care. The blind clears after 1 attack, and weakness lowers your damage, but you dont need much. Especially since both of those only hit you after your initial burst, when youre just cleaning up. Again, not rocket science.

    Only because you backward on precision, don't be happy too fast.

    This sentence makes no sense. And no, its just because you are slowly realising you cant defend your own positions. Soon enough, youll accept you were wrong about everything all along.

    I'm not the one saying PU mesmer, which main sustain is basically around stealth is okish, while thief stealth is bad sustain.

    PU Mesmers survivability (not sustain) is not focused on stealth at all. Because stealth as survivability is awful. Its sustain is good because of evades, invulns and damage reduction. Which thief has less of all of those (or none, in the latter 2).

    And there isn't a trait in the metab build who reduce swipe duration.

    By 15%. But oh, whats this? Mesmer has the exact same trait? Well now.

    Glab you admit thief boon steal isn't worst than mesmer boon steal.

    Why would it be? Mesmer has like 1 boon steal skill, the rest just rip boons.

    NO, core power mesmer use mantra of pain. You even wrote it and the 10 utility build still doesn't exist after trying to make it a reality since 3 answers.

    They all use mantra of pain. Its part of the burst rotation. Stop lying about it being a "10 utility build" and accept the fact that you do not know your own class. That should make you think.

    No, rupt mesmers use mantra of distraction. Just watch Jazz vids.

    Were not talking about rupt mesmer, because the build was never focused on interrupts. It was focused on burst. And burst is what mantra of pain provides.

    They can't run mantra of pain AND mantra of distraction it's two different purpose on had 2 differents builds synergy.

    Funny that you say that after linking shadowpass who, guess what? Uses both. Whoops?

    Illusiory wave ins't "intterupts" you don't interrupt keyskill with a 0.5 visible cast CC. Another lie, but come on it's probably your best post looking at this.

    Yes, you cant interrupt key skills like Glyph of revival, after all .5 seconds isnt enough to stop a checks notes 2 second cast time skill. Wait.

    You are always in the best situation at 450 range with blink up, when it happend yep, carefully saved your wave for this on a no cover target, nice paper theory.

    Dont need to be a best situation, its a pretty average one. Remember, this is pretty much whats happened in the MOTA multiple times. Mesmer can do it just as well.

    Yeah thieves never win 1v1. It's all opponent fault to play worse build or don't be reactive enough.

    They indeed do not. Unless you include finishing off low health targets. This is like the first lesson a thief learns, "never fight 1v1". Again, dont talk about classes you havent got the faintest clue about.

    I should present you plat players who have fun duelling on their thieves. Like I have on my build.

    Given matchmaking, that happens when theyre against worse players (significantly worse). But against a player of similar skill level, thief does not win the 1v1, ever. Well, maybe condi mirage if it wasnt unplayable.

    Stay in yours then. And let people enjoy others.

    There is only one reality. Not "my" reality, the reality. What youre in is a fantasy world.

    Yep and how can you be sure that what you describe is ?

    Evidence, math, objective measures. All of which point to it.

    Already anwer up : Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.

    Because we are talking about 1v1s. Of course kills that happen when they arent in 1v1s dont count. Once again, are you just trolling? Or are you legitimately just too ignorant to understand something so simple?

    You barely 1v1ing, even pre-patch. Mean even if at the beginning, someone 1v1ing close and one of the two blow, the reste of the game isn't even number anymore.

    No you 1v1d a fair bit pre-patch. Rotations were important, but you couldnt rotate 24/7. And yes, if you 1v1 and one dies, that has a big impact. Thats good. Thats how the game is supposed to work.

    Why is it so hard understanding that it's normal in 5v5 conquest to have outnumbered situations and that they count ?

    Why is it so hard for you to understand that they dont count for 1v1 situations. How can you not have the minimal capability for thought needed to understand that 1v1ing is supposed to end without outside interference otherwise 1v1 classes have no agency? Yes, outnumbered situations happen. Thats good. But they should be a benefit, not a requirement.

    Powercreep is what make all game look the same, destroy class diversity and make game boring as hell.

    And thats why after the recent powerdip patch, all games look the same, class diversity was destroyed and the game is boring as all hell. While under the "powercreep" patch, class diversity was strong, the games all looked very different, and were very exciting. Yeah. As I said, powerdip is much worse. And were seeing that in realtime.

    I don't consider everyone attacking under streoïds with only colors effects who changes as a very exciting different setup.

    Yes but that was again still only your fantasy world. In the real world, we had great class diversity and build diversity. While now every sidenoder is a knockback class. That is indeed not very exciting.

    ... are you this underrate or you just don't know what are you talking about ?
    What in chrono give sustain ?
    The heal on wells ? clone generation from core signet + blind or reflect bypass this easily.
    The shield ? OH sword did the same with not the "phantasm who failed top op if the opponent evade" side effect.
    Precognition well ? invul on signet bypass them.
    Not even talking about shatter reset, boosted heal.
    How the kitten can core signet be less tankier than destroyed chrono pre-patch, just how ?

    You dont understand how important channeled blocks, AoE invades or healing are, got it. Stop talking about classes you dont know.

    Lol
    Give me the number please or just admit you smoke bad grass. Double F4 alone make signet mes way ahead chrono talking about sustain.

    Look them up yourself. Its not difficult.

    It's a 4 seconds burst, it's not 400% HP, we aren't talking about PoF start mirage but about pre-patch mirage.
    Mean if every mesmers whiners are persuaded that we are in the PoF launch state, that explain many things.

    It isnt, it is, we indeed arent. Youre just ignorant, as always.

    I give screenshots, show me a prepatch vid about a mesmer playing 400% HP "burst".

    You give screenshots that are suspicious and undoubtedly made in a 25 might vs 25 vuln situation (since they are literally otherwise impossible). Its not just not proof, its the opposite. Its falsified proof. Besides, again, you can look that up yourself.

    Sorry I fail to see the dancing people last mAt, but ho it's because they were outnumbering or fighting, which is basically : playing the game.


    If they were fighting 1v1, they were wasting time. Its not "playing the game", its playing a checkout simulator. Dreadfully dull. The game has gone to hell.

    They don't waste time, is they don't fight, they lose the point.

    Nah, its a waste of time. They wont die, even if they dont fight. The most that can happen is that they get knocked back. Which is not exciting. There is a reason we saw the synchronised dancing, because there was no point in fighting. As there isnt now. The only reason you fight is 2-fold. One, knockbacks, two, to make +1ing for your team easier. If however your team will never +1, and the enemy has no knockback, there is no point in fighting. And even if those are the case, its still a waste of time. Incredibly dull.

    Thats specific teamcomps, but the thing is, those are rare, and theyre still visible on the leaderboard. But no, when it comes to class frequency, theyre nearly identical.

    Which mean that mAT frequency and LB frequency are differents, thanks.

    Nope. But good try.

    Different setup, different frequencies, it's obvious that there is build who only perform wil 5 coordinated guys while other work with only 2 guys.

    Except you will find those builds still get played at the same rate on the leaderboard. The frequencies are the same.

    I don't need knoback to pressure enough dps class to go out of point hopefully.

    "hopefully". Sorry to dash your hopes. You do. As I said, its literally the meta. Its the only thing that matters on a micro level. Otherwise you just wait to be outnumbered.

    Nop I don't, if a zerk ranger or holo just stay on point while I'm pewpewting them they will die as I'm free to optimal pressure.

    If youre alone, they will not. You keep attacking them. Trying desperately to kill them. But every time their health dips below 50%, it immediately shoots back up. Yet you keep trying, hoping in vain that this time will be different. But it isnt. Yet you keep trying. You cant even remember how much time has passed, but it feels like an eternity. Your fingers are getting tired from pressing every button off cooldown. Youre just hoping, desperately for them to somehow die. But they dont. You are trapped. An endless loop for all eternity.

    Ok that little detour aside, you wont. Your damage is far below what is neccessary to kill them.

    Don't worry, I'm laughting too.
    What append if powercreep give people low CD so that they can endless spam ?

    Interesting hypothesis. Sadly for you, its once again just your fantasy world. Such a thing never existed. And if youre laughing about your own stupidity, well at least youre a good sport.

    Nop, it was real that's also why they increase many CD post patch and gut most quickness uptime.

    It wasnt. The reason they increased CD was under the false assumption that it makes the game "more tactical". It didnt. Quickness uptime was reduced because quickness was too powerful when well-timed and used with well-timed skills. When used with spamming it was useless, but only really bad players spammed.

    Yeah it was ironical about your meta, you look really tired not seeing this.
    I never had to time more than during this meta to have an impact.

    And you also said yourself, and I quote, "People were always running around at 15% hp", which they werent. You had to time far more before. You just failed to time it well. And always got hit by a ton of damage. Now that your inability to time anything doesnt kill you, you suddenly think "hey, it must matter more".

    No, no there were build who can save their HP for the sake of powercreep.

    This sentence doesnt even make sense.

    Thanks Mr the new famous scientist for this fact, "the higher the damage, the better it is" haha.

    Its a piece of old game design knowledge. There is a cap, of course, but yeah, its a fact. A fact youre too ignorant to understand.

    It's only a opium things : "wow I feel so strong seeing high numbers on my screen".

    Hahahahahahahaha. Oh god, you really are this clueless, huh? No, that little thing is only why you see MMO damage be 4 and 5 digits, instead of 2 and 3 digits. But, the fact that high damage makes for more skilled metas is an objective fact regardless of framing. A low damage meta where skills hit for 4k is a lot less skillful than a high damage meta where skills hit for 300.

    But this is getting long and tiresome, so lets wrap it up. This new meta is objectively far less skilled. The objectively correct way to play now is to spam mindlessly off cooldown without ever timing it. If you did so pre-patch, it was objectively the worst way to play and instantly lost you the game. The new meta leads to sidenoders having no agency, and to insanely boring matches. And players noticed. Thats why the playerbase took a major hit. The only solution is to revert most of the patch. Or you let the game die. So have fun with your no-skill meta that kills the game.

    Subjectively certainly, now you can let people play (or not play) and wait for next balance.

    Nope, objectively- The only subjective part is you having fun with the no-skill meta, the rest is objective. And no, Id rather not let the game die just because bad players like you prefer no-skill metas where timing doesnt exist, you spam everything off cooldown and rotations are all that matters. The next balance, unless it ups damage across the board, will not save the game.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    This is getting long. Ill skip over the parts that have already been conclusively concluded to you being wrong.

    Thanks, that's already what I did when you ending accepted being wrong on few things. No need to keep already agreed things.

    You mean the things that had no bearing on the entire argument, like Arcane Thievery, right? Because the only who admitted to being wrong on anything of substance was you.

    Haha seems one is less dishonnest than the other then <3 .

    Just to be clear, out of gold, there is no way opponent will not move. Most opponent have swiftness, the only way you can burst them with only stealth is if they come in front of you, don't cast aoe, don't have aegis, don't have autoproc. Mean the perfect scenario where you have a waiting target to burst isn't real.

    They dont have to not move. They only have to move slower. Which they always will. So its 100% consistent. They dont need to come in front of you, AoE is not relevant, aegis is not relevant (eats the mantra, but that still leaves you with around 11k-15k damage, and they will not have an autoproc that saves them. Its not a perfect scenario, its the average scenario.

    You don't run faster while in stealth and it's not with your op 1 chance over 5 to get swiftness than you will cath up class on perma swiftness.

    But they run slower in combat. And they will be in combat. You will not.

    294 out of combat => 279,3 in combat with swiftness. (600 on raptor btw.).
    Mean dunno if you every try to make a char with 25% ms and a char with swiftness but the difference mean you will get hard time running after. Moreover if he is in fight, you are very likely to get hit by random AOE.

    AoE mean : if it's CC aoe, they will see you coming and it will delay your burst window. If it's damage aoe, they will see you coming. If it's condi aoe, it will cripple your burst. Ofc they are relevant and pretty usual.

    You would have to be monumetally unlucky for them to hit AoE CC at the right moment. The other 2 dont matter. If theyre using AoE skills, theyre fighting, and you being hit gives them no information.

    Go watch shadowpass vids link see how much those AoE work.

    I find funnay that mesmer 100% hit 11k-15k while thief shadowshot only does 2k. 0 bias here.

    2k-3k. And yes, there is indeed no bias there, just cold hard math. Turns out 1.3125 damage coefficient is a lot lower than, what was it, 5-6?

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.

    Using shadowshot when the opponent is ready for it will fail miserably, it has animation, even from stealth, as you said the projectile is low.
    They kitten rarely used it to come melee, they will mostly use steal for this.
    The most valuable things with apart the damage is blind.

    As I said. Dont talk about classes you dont know. Sure, they can dodge it, but thats not a good dodge, and you could punish them for it. Its used almost exclusively for gapclosing, since steal is used when engaging and happens to have a long cooldown. The blind is nice, but the least relevant part of the entire thing.

    A dodge who prevent 4-5k damage, 5 sec blind and a thief in your kitten damaging you is IMO a good dodge.

    2-3k. Not 4-5k. Again, dont talk about classes you dont know about. Blind duration doesnt matter, it gets cleared immediately. Its a really bad dodge.

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.
    I haven't enough condi clear to clear blind during a burst.

    Ho sorry, I miss that's I'm supposed to be dishonnest, thanks for remind me this by not knowing when to stop quoting.
    Then : Backstab hasn't hudge setup, with spamming heartseeker stealth stack, you have a higher burst windows than some class with might/weakness/modifier with lesser duration. + it's always the same combo, you don't have to rely on proc to value them. Not even talking about requiring field rotation for certain class while other just had to throw attacks and it work.

    Backstab doesnt have a huge setup, but it does have a huge downside. You can use it when engaging, and then youre basically locked out of it for the entire fight, or at best get a frontal backstab which does a lot less damage. The burst window is much lower. The rest of what you say is nonsense, as usual.

    The rupt part when traited is what make it highly valuable. The burst window is the time you are in stealth waiting to time your burst while other rely on vuln application or modifier proc for example.

    Backstab doesnt interrupt, it has a single boonrip. Also, youre not gonna be waiting in stealth, because you wont go into stealth mid-combat, other than when using blinding powder as a stunbreak.

    Steal has. You have enough stealth duration to time well the opening.

    A good thief nowing I play rupt will not play D/P with plethora of rupt windows, that's all. It's wall adaptation, but for this you should understand that there are builds out of S metabattle tiers that will work better in some situations.

    A good thief is a +1 class. They do not care if you use interrupts, they only fight you in a 2v1, and at that point youre dead meat. And they will not kitten themselves by playing the worst weaponset thief has access to, just to beat one already not viable class. There is no situation in the game where D/D works better. Its an unviable playstyle. And by admitting that you see it a lot, you tanked your credibility and your entire argument.

    A thief coming +1 with his main setup ruptable against a dedicated rupt build couldn't do anything and forced to go away. Will screen next time I see top thief on DD because you only work with proves.

    Yeah, because in a 1v2 where the thief opens with a backstab you will totally have the time to interrupt him without dying. For that matter, why do you think DD fares better? If anything, it has the more interruptible skills.

    You will never figure it as long as you never meet this in game.

    Yep one yesterday : https://ibb.co/0n9rMgm
    I'm pretty sure this game was streamed by someone, will look is I have time is not I will continue screenshot until you accept that you should not play paladin thief.

    You failed to provide context. And once again, we get the same suspicious damage discrepancy. Double strike does 0.3 damage, shadow shot 1.3125. Meaning shadow shot does about 4.4 times the damage. And yet, the shadow shot actually did 9 times the damage. And theyre both crits. This is normally impossible. Conclusion: 25 might vs 25 vuln situation which is obviously not applicable. So sorry, this again proves the opposite.

    It's the second screen, no problem I will screen more until you accept the truth. And no I haven't 25 might/vuln : I was fighting a ranger and I don't play might build who could be steal.
    It's crazy that even why prooves you can't accept it.

    Its the second highly suspicious screen. I cant accept what youre showing, because its not the truth, its a lie. Whatever these screenshots are, proof they are not. As I explained. The damage is higher than it can be. If double strike does 600, Shadow Shot can only do 3k. Its basic math. You should be capable of it.

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.

    Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.
    You should be genius gamedesigner.

    Yes, if were talking about the fact that no one ever dies in a 1v1, kills that happened when they werent in a 1v1 dont count. Are you just trolling now? Also you, who doesnt even understand the fundamentals of game design shouldnt talk.

    You talk about the fundamentals of 5v5 conquest who is all about rotating so since launche there is outnumbered situations ?
    No one dies in a 1v1 because thoses who 1v1 aren't the +1, neither the squishy.

    The fundamentals of 5v5 is that outnumbering helps but isnt required. That is no longer the case. No one dies in a 1v1 because damage as a whole is too low. Full stop. The ones who 1v1 are squishy. But squishy when damage is too low is the same as tanky.

    Lol just no, even if I do the hypothesis that 1v1 is a thing, as long as the 1v1 end, it's not anymore even number on the map.

    Do a level 1 mesmer, go to PvP (or minimum level to go in.) use PU, show me how well you "stack" thoses boon please.

    Quite well. Also I still have my old power mesmer around, no need to make a new class. Unlike you, I dont talk about classes I dont know (Which at this point is pretty much just necro).

    Aaaand where is your high protection uptime ? I hope for you you get a "lucky strike" on RNG to highlight us how good it is for this.

    Why do you need high uptime? Any amount of protection is better than no protection. Especially when against the highest damage ones.

    When you are in steatlth, sure little protetion is better than nothing, but you highly prefer it while revealed.

    I face holo everyday and I they catch me on no vertical things, I can't escape now the top player @UNOwen.7132 will say that's because I don't know how to use my 10 utility build.

    Without looking at your build, I can guess that youre probably screwing up hard, much like pre-patch where you were "always at 15% hp". But your bad play is not the benchmark. Between 2 equal players, the mesmer always escapes.

    Considering misha spend most games low life as well, I will put my badness apart.

    I wouldve thought that after I pointed out your lie here, you wouldve dropped it, but no, guess youre still lying. No, Misha spent the vast majority of his games at medium to high health, only dropping low when messing up or outnumbered. You spent them at low health, because you were always messing up.

    The only moment where he is full life is when running out of combat between points. But hey I miss that this was the "fun" prepatch gameplay running around point only fighting few sec each time.

    Sorry I'm not facing bot when I play.
    Maybe I should do a F2P account to see your meta.

    Strawman. I just explained that they cant react. It works consistently on even the best player. You should know that, its your class. Evidently you dont know your own class.

    Good players moves, casts, rotates, they will not stay afking on point wainting to be burst.

    How many times do I have to repeat this until you get it? They are moving*. But moving doesnt save them. Because the burst cant be reacted to and is 100% consistent even on moving targets. Christ, how do you not know your own class?

    Watch non biased vids from anti-mes people. Mean we have the best prove we can ever get about this from someone who want nerf mesmers who play it to highlghit how op it was. Dunno why you keep denying efforts he does doing this.

    :D certainly, certainly, you can't even look at the prove you linked on this build haha.

    This sentence makes no sense. You can watch Misha do the bursts, he played the build. The "autoprocs" dont do jack.

    And how many bursts he launch that effectively hit ?

    All of them? Did you not watch the video?

    Yep and I see many fails.

    Are you so biased that you think bountiful blades existed pre-patch or it's just a mistake ?
    You know before there was the stunt trait of this lockburst build who is now just a burst build with near inexistant chances to hit with the burst.

    Since when are we talking pre-patch here?

    Since you talk bout core PU burst being "meta" prepatch. And that there is no need to lock before bursting while having high clone production.

    It was viable pre-patch. Meta, not so much, it was on the lower end. The lock was not irrelevant, but it was also not neccessary. The burst works without it.

    The lock was ofc relevant. and the clone generation was bad. Nice we agree about this evidence.

    Currently there is ONE mesmer playing it on gold3/plat. he ins't on LB and it's even worse than before.
    Dunno which meta version did you talk about because there isn't a more meta version of power core.

    "meta version" is the best version of the build. But hey, you finally admitted that Mesmer has fewer viable builds now than before, and all builds it had got worse. Progress.

    Yeah so there is no a hypotethic meta version of this.
    Now I never consider this build meta, particulary since you can't secure your burst, the only things valuable in this build, and since they halves mobility.

    A meta version is just the best version. Every build has a meta version, its just not neccessarily that the build itself is meta. The build wasnt meta, since it lacked mobility, but it was viable, since it was a reliable and consistent high burst.

    Can't wait to see the "chrono" meta build in action :D .

    Nop, the outcome is : the thief has just to use his better stealth uptime, time 4 skills and it's over.
    A mesmer can't fight a spellbreaker on point because he can free FC on illusions. He can only kite around in this setup and a sniper can do better at this.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh boy, you really are a riot. Yeah thief is going to use stealth in-combat, and the mesmer wont just interrupt it or punish and kill him. Yeah its clear you dont know either class. Thief could never kill the mesmer. But the mesmer usually couldnt either. A deadlock. And a mesmer can fight a spellbreaker much better than any thief can.

    If the thief play S/D versus a rupt mesmer yeah, but it's a lack of knowledge issue. But you probably never go out of your "meta" to see the possibilities and adaptations some players does.

    S/D cant kill Mesmer either. No Thief can, damage isnt there. Mesmer will struggle to kill the thief, but its possible.

    Thief dictate mesmer meta during most of this game from core game to now but they can't kill mesmers, yeah yeah yeah.

    About SP encouter it's clearly build dependant, post patch during the condi thief hype, come say me mesmer kill a SP faster than a thief.

    Yeah you wouldve been able to kill much faster. Condi thief had a bit of an issue against burst cleanses and resistance. Warrior has burst cleanses, and resistance. Its sustained condi pressure warrior struggles against, but condi thief doesnt really provide that.

    Genius. Tell this to every war during few post-patch condi thief hype. Strangely since they nerf it there is more wars but it probably has nothing correlated.

    Yeah 0% chances to fail, it's really strange we don't see this 100% chance of hit burst build on every mesmers.
    Ho wait ....

    Which part of "damage is too low so there is no point playing a burst build" is too difficult for you to understand? Or how about "mobility is king for +1s, so Mesmer suffers there"? Are you just too stupid.

    It's not about the damage it's about the fact that a monoburst build is less efficient than a multiburst build. Should the multi burst have slighy less output.

    Its about the damage. There is no such thign as a "multiburst build". Youre just saying nonsense while trying to defend your increasingly obviously ridiculous statements.

    6k ins't peanuts, so yeah there is multi pressure builds.

    I can list 3 to 4 SB, 1 mesmer on NA while playing in EU and I don't follow weaver so I dunno about them.
    Who are thoses famous many mesmers streamers ?

    Are you talking about right now? Yeah no one plays Mesmer right now, the patch killed diversity. Did you forget?

    Nop I'm talking before the patch. Which mesmers streamed ?

    Iunno, I didnt care to catch their name. I just saw them on the page.

    Because they didn't extists, thanks we agreed one more time. Ho and if you talk about Jazz : it was occasional montages and he don't play actively in LB. BTW it's no more than 1 guy.

    Yeah, buff thief, give it more evade, reduce his CD and more stealth option, it's clearly the blacksheep of sustain in GW2.

    It is. Why do you think thief only has +1 builds and hasnt had a sidenoder or 1v1 build since 2015? Granted, thief probably shouldnt be able to, but thats why they arent able to.

    Because thief never had hit&run gameplay who allow them to have the MU against few encounter ... because mobility ins't sustain....

    Yeah thief is "hit and run". It hits someone in a +1, and runs otherwise. There is however no matchup where thief won the 1v1. And mobility indeed isnt sustain. If you can disengage and heal up, so do they.

    Nop thief hit and run until the guy die, you know from LoS. Depending on the spec is already managable to kill someone 1v1, go to few snipers stream, they have the MU against certain type of builds while S/D on other etc.

    NO one will used boonrip on a thief considering it's more valuable on other spec.

    Implying boon rip is not something some classes just have pretty much baseline and throw out a lot. Yeah.

    Which again is not near to be a normal situation on a +1 class.

    It is actually a normal situation, lots of boonrips or corrupts just flying around.

    Who are thoses aoe not requiring target ? I know only 2.

    Mesmer has more vigor than thief, yeah give thief 30 sec vigor on steal so he can compete lol. You should stop eating dangerous thins, it's not anymore dreaming here. I'm worried about you health.

    More? No, not quite. However, Mesmer has more instances of vigor. So boonrip and boon corrupt is far less brutal. And man, you, as someone who always lives in a fantasy world, really shouldnt be talking.

    I don't consider 1.5 sec on shatter has a good instances of vigor, the only good instance is 8 sec every 25 sec on a skill you would use to blind or pressuring.
    The 3 sec on crit can't be even considered post-patch as they removed condition on crit.

    What is "critical infusion"? What is "False Oasis"? What is "Vigor on shatter". Mind you as I said, the total amount is lower, but its more instances. Thief has just the 1. Rip it, and he is screwed. Rip the infusion vigor, and mesmer has 3 more.

    I already list them apart oasis. List me the way to "rip" it.

    I'm not a unviable class, the is currently 3 mes top 100 and around 6 top 250. Which is better than last season. Thanks to worry about me thought.

    Mesmer is an unviable class. It was far better pre-patch. Try playing a viable class, and you see it doesnt matter.

    There is currently more mes in LB than preptach, so at last it seems it less "unviable" than before lol.

    That is categorically wrong. There were a few pre-patch. There appear to be almost none now. Additionally, there are now no Mesmers in MAT, when pre-patch they were a very common sight. They are far more unviable now. Pre-patch mesmer was good, now its unviable. Simple as that.

    ? this evening there is 4 top 100. Prepatch there were 2. The only difference is now there isn't in Mat. But again mAt and LB have different representations.

    Facerolling didn't mean spamming only evade, when you roll properly your head on you keyboard you go from left to right and vice versa, so you launch one CC every few damaging skills. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Ah, good old backtracking "oh they facerolled". "Ok they didnt really faceroll, they timed their skills and staggered them, but its still totally facerolly I promise !!1!!1!!". Next you just have to admit "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost".

    Even the worst faceroller will not launch all his CC first, then all his damage, then all his sustain. It's basics.¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Thats not facerolling. Come on, the last step is simple. Just say "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost". Its an easy thing to admit.

    Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing. Which has nothing to do with the kind of skills you keep spam.
    Dunno why you worsed the faceroll level even more than it was.

    Mean if on my a condi mes I'm fighting a chaos mes, I will certainly no use F3 while he is on condi pressure you know, it's basics.

    Thats not what facerolling means. But good job admitting that you were wrong.

    Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing. Which has nothing to do with the kind of skills you keep spam.

    Wow, that is impressive cognitive dissonance. "Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing.". "Oh but they didnt spam skills without timing, they actually timed them to not waste all of them". These 2 things contradict each other. Yeesh.

    Timing is launching a skill countering or interacting with opponent skills.
    Rollfacing is rotate his skills while not taking in account the timing when opponents use his skills.
    Which has nothing to do that spamming condi skills with no CC remain faceroll.

    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?

    Then the Mesmer just runs away and doesnt die. Its a +1 class, remember.

    So easy to do after going melee.

    Yes, it is quite easy.

    Not on the said build.

    It is. Against anything other than thief, and warrior on flat ground (but pvp hardly has flat ground).

    We talk about a build that has only blink as a reliable out of melee. So no it isn't.

    Yep it's the problem, considering the burst haven't a 100% chances of hit (you can even look shadowpass vids if you want a anti-mesmer view he go into it trying to prove it was op.), and even if it hit, it hasn't 100% chances to 100-0 HP, the problem is more about going out of opponent preparing the next burst than landing the initial tickle.

    It had a near 100% chance of hitting. And for most classes, it instantly downed them. Those were not the issues with it. The fact that it lacked mobility is. +1 classes dont really need to have much damage, they just need to be fast. But as I said, you just dont know your own class.

    Look at shadowpass vids, it's a anti-mesmer view at the time this build was the most efficient, just figure out the "high" chance of hitting.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88768/eu-ranked-pvp-on-core-mantra-mesmer/p1
    Mean it's not even my "biased" opinion.

    Did you watch the video? Every time he went for the out of stealth burst combo, he got it. So yeah, its nearly guaranteed to hit. Man you really can only find videos that show the opposite of what you want to show.

    Dunno what video did you watch over all of theses but majority are about how the burst is unreliable and don't 100-0 people.

    When you are under chill when a zerk reaper jump on you, you fear way more the non-damaging condition than the damaging one, same when a zerk war immobilize you, somes class slow/weakness you so you can't counter pressure etc.
    Clearing non damaging condition can't be considered as useless.

    They are in long drawn out fights. Youre a +1 class. You dont have long drawn out fights. In those, you only care about damaging conditions.

    Nop, if you are a +1 power class and weakness/high blind pop on you, you clearly don't care about it.

    Yup, you dont care. The blind clears after 1 attack, and weakness lowers your damage, but you dont need much. Especially since both of those only hit you after your initial burst, when youre just cleaning up. Again, not rocket science.

    Blind clear after 1 attack. Your first attack is GS2 if you are blind : no clone, no GS2 damage = -6k damage. It's not just a "don't care" things in this build who is all about the right position and the right timing.
    Weakness don't only lower your damage it nullify your crits mean you hit like a noddle. And ranger weakness is widely used.

    Only because you backward on precision, don't be happy too fast.

    This sentence makes no sense. And no, its just because you are slowly realising you cant defend your own positions. Soon enough, youll accept you were wrong about everything all along.

    I'm not the one saying PU mesmer, which main sustain is basically around stealth is okish, while thief stealth is bad sustain.

    PU Mesmers survivability (not sustain) is not focused on stealth at all. Because stealth as survivability is awful. Its sustain is good because of evades, invulns and damage reduction. Which thief has less of all of those (or none, in the latter 2).

    ... Thief has less evade than PU mesmer ... New fun fact.
    Protection during stealth isn''t out of stealth damage reduction.
    Invul with average 2 clone mean 50 sec CD 2 sec inul.
    Such a high survivability compared to thief.

    And there isn't a trait in the metab build who reduce swipe duration.

    By 15%. But oh, whats this? Mesmer has the exact same trait? Well now.

    Glab you admit thief boon steal isn't worst than mesmer boon steal.

    Why would it be? Mesmer has like 1 boon steal skill, the rest just rip boons.

    Because we talk about vigor uptime.

    NO, core power mesmer use mantra of pain. You even wrote it and the 10 utility build still doesn't exist after trying to make it a reality since 3 answers.

    They all use mantra of pain. Its part of the burst rotation. Stop lying about it being a "10 utility build" and accept the fact that you do not know your own class. That should make you think.

    No, rupt mesmers use mantra of distraction. Just watch Jazz vids.

    Were not talking about rupt mesmer, because the build was never focused on interrupts. It was focused on burst. And burst is what mantra of pain provides.

    ??? The only thing Jazz build is about is RUPT and timing them. Ask him, ask every player about this if you doubt, it's insane.
    PU build never focused on interrupts yep, dunno why you wrote it uses mantra of distraction.

    They can't run mantra of pain AND mantra of distraction it's two different purpose on had 2 differents builds synergy.

    Funny that you say that after linking shadowpass who, guess what? Uses both. Whoops?

    Because the link on shadowpass is about how reliable the burst isn't. It's even more visible with the ultra stunt on MoD. It take place before pre-patch and wasn't played at all in mAt during at this time. Because playing 2 mantra wasn't the meta build we talk about looking at misha.

    Illusiory wave ins't "intterupts" you don't interrupt keyskill with a 0.5 visible cast CC. Another lie, but come on it's probably your best post looking at this.

    Yes, you cant interrupt key skills like Glyph of revival, after all .5 seconds isnt enough to stop a checks notes 2 second cast time skill. Wait.

    You are always in the best situation at 450 range with blink up, when it happend yep, carefully saved your wave for this on a no cover target, nice paper theory.

    Dont need to be a best situation, its a pretty average one. Remember, this is pretty much whats happened in the MOTA multiple times. Mesmer can do it just as well.

    There is mesmer waving in the MOTA now ? Which other teleport is a 450 range ?

    Yeah thieves never win 1v1. It's all opponent fault to play worse build or don't be reactive enough.

    They indeed do not. Unless you include finishing off low health targets. This is like the first lesson a thief learns, "never fight 1v1". Again, dont talk about classes you havent got the faintest clue about.

    I should present you plat players who have fun duelling on their thieves. Like I have on my build.

    Given matchmaking, that happens when theyre against worse players (significantly worse). But against a player of similar skill level, thief does not win the 1v1, ever. Well, maybe condi mirage if it wasnt unplayable.

    I'm pretty sure we can found some misha vs sind sparring somewhere.

    Stay in yours then. And let people enjoy others.

    There is only one reality. Not "my" reality, the reality. What youre in is a fantasy world.

    Yep and how can you be sure that what you describe is ?

    Evidence, math, objective measures. All of which point to it.

    That's what I call subjective looking at them.

    Already anwer up : Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.

    Because we are talking about 1v1s. Of course kills that happen when they arent in 1v1s dont count. Once again, are you just trolling? Or are you legitimately just too ignorant to understand something so simple?

    You barely 1v1ing, even pre-patch. Mean even if at the beginning, someone 1v1ing close and one of the two blow, the reste of the game isn't even number anymore.

    No you 1v1d a fair bit pre-patch. Rotations were important, but you couldnt rotate 24/7. And yes, if you 1v1 and one dies, that has a big impact. Thats good. Thats how the game is supposed to work.

    If one die currently it already has a big impact and rotating are always important. And more before pre-patch we already had tank build from time to time, with less hate you seems to have against someone building to survive.

    Why is it so hard understanding that it's normal in 5v5 conquest to have outnumbered situations and that they count ?

    Why is it so hard for you to understand that they dont count for 1v1 situations. How can you not have the minimal capability for thought needed to understand that 1v1ing is supposed to end without outside interference otherwise 1v1 classes have no agency? Yes, outnumbered situations happen. Thats good. But they should be a benefit, not a requirement.

    Because 1v1 in PvP like GvG in WvW is not what lead to win, what appended pre-patch with good players 1v1 is one of them running away when loosing, they don't die either.

    Powercreep is what make all game look the same, destroy class diversity and make game boring as hell.

    And thats why after the recent powerdip patch, all games look the same, class diversity was destroyed and the game is boring as all hell. While under the "powercreep" patch, class diversity was strong, the games all looked very different, and were very exciting. Yeah. As I said, powerdip is much worse. And were seeing that in realtime.

    I don't consider everyone attacking under streoïds with only colors effects who changes as a very exciting different setup.

    Yes but that was again still only your fantasy world. In the real world, we had great class diversity and build diversity. While now every sidenoder is a knockback class. That is indeed not very exciting.

    Not it wasn't great, same downward slope, same gameplay with only little changes during years. Some class pretty boring to play even with powercreep.
    It funny how people tend to improve the past. At this rate I want to come back to vanilla WvW mesmer golden time.

    ... are you this underrate or you just don't know what are you talking about ?
    What in chrono give sustain ?
    The heal on wells ? clone generation from core signet + blind or reflect bypass this easily.
    The shield ? OH sword did the same with not the "phantasm who failed top op if the opponent evade" side effect.
    Precognition well ? invul on signet bypass them.
    Not even talking about shatter reset, boosted heal.
    How the kitten can core signet be less tankier than destroyed chrono pre-patch, just how ?

    You dont understand how important channeled blocks, AoE invades or healing are, got it. Stop talking about classes you dont know.

    Lol
    Give me the number please or just admit you smoke bad grass. Double F4 alone make signet mes way ahead chrono talking about sustain.

    Look them up yourself. Its not difficult.

    It's prettu difficult because I already explained why signet is more tanky.
    You know I can look at them as long as I want, it will not magically pop something who don't exist.

    It's a 4 seconds burst, it's not 400% HP, we aren't talking about PoF start mirage but about pre-patch mirage.
    Mean if every mesmers whiners are persuaded that we are in the PoF launch state, that explain many things.

    It isnt, it is, we indeed arent. Youre just ignorant, as always.

    I give screenshots, show me a prepatch vid about a mesmer playing 400% HP "burst".

    You give screenshots that are suspicious and undoubtedly made in a 25 might vs 25 vuln situation (since they are literally otherwise impossible). Its not just not proof, its the opposite. Its falsified proof. Besides, again, you can look that up yourself.

    No problem I will continue screenshot, when every thief does the same damage you will maybe start admiting that damages aren't low.

    Sorry I fail to see the dancing people last mAt, but ho it's because they were outnumbering or fighting, which is basically : playing the game.


    If they were fighting 1v1, they were wasting time. Its not "playing the game", its playing a checkout simulator. Dreadfully dull. The game has gone to hell.

    They don't waste time, is they don't fight, they lose the point.

    Nah, its a waste of time. They wont die, even if they dont fight. The most that can happen is that they get knocked back. Which is not exciting. There is a reason we saw the synchronised dancing, because there was no point in fighting. As there isnt now. The only reason you fight is 2-fold. One, knockbacks, two, to make +1ing for your team easier. If however your team will never +1, and the enemy has no knockback, there is no point in fighting. And even if those are the case, its still a waste of time. Incredibly dull.

    Show me how you don't die staying afk on point. I'm pretty curious.

    Thats specific teamcomps, but the thing is, those are rare, and theyre still visible on the leaderboard. But no, when it comes to class frequency, theyre nearly identical.

    Which mean that mAT frequency and LB frequency are differents, thanks.

    Nope. But good try.

    Different setup, different frequencies, it's obvious that there is build who only perform wil 5 coordinated guys while other work with only 2 guys.

    Except you will find those builds still get played at the same rate on the leaderboard. The frequencies are the same.

    No like said, mesmer are the best example pre and post patch.

    I don't need knoback to pressure enough dps class to go out of point hopefully.

    "hopefully". Sorry to dash your hopes. You do. As I said, its literally the meta. Its the only thing that matters on a micro level. Otherwise you just wait to be outnumbered.

    Nop I don't, if a zerk ranger or holo just stay on point while I'm pewpewting them they will die as I'm free to optimal pressure.

    If youre alone, they will not. You keep attacking them. Trying desperately to kill them. But every time their health dips below 50%, it immediately shoots back up. Yet you keep trying, hoping in vain that this time will be different. But it isnt. Yet you keep trying. You cant even remember how much time has passed, but it feels like an eternity. Your fingers are getting tired from pressing every button off cooldown. Youre just hoping, desperately for them to somehow die. But they dont. You are trapped. An endless loop for all eternity.

    You think a zerk ranger getting hit 60% by opening with his heal rupt on a 15 sec CD will stay on point laughting at me ?
    Hopefully it never happened.

    Ok that little detour aside, you wont. Your damage is far below what is neccessary to kill them.

    Don't worry, I'm laughting too.
    What append if powercreep give people low CD so that they can endless spam ?

    Interesting hypothesis. Sadly for you, its once again just your fantasy world. Such a thing never existed. And if youre laughing about your own stupidity, well at least youre a good sport.

    Nop, it was real that's also why they increase many CD post patch and gut most quickness uptime.

    It wasnt. The reason they increased CD was under the false assumption that it makes the game "more tactical". It didnt. Quickness uptime was reduced because quickness was too powerful when well-timed and used with well-timed skills. When used with spamming it was useless, but only really bad players spammed.

    Sure you neo now, you see the matrix behind the dev and prep-pacth whines post about rollface and quickness issues.

    Thanks Mr the new famous scientist for this fact, "the higher the damage, the better it is" haha.

    Its a piece of old game design knowledge. There is a cap, of course, but yeah, its a fact. A fact youre too ignorant to understand.

    It's only a opium things : "wow I feel so strong seeing high numbers on my screen".

    Hahahahahahahaha. Oh god, you really are this clueless, huh? No, that little thing is only why you see MMO damage be 4 and 5 digits, instead of 2 and 3 digits. But, the fact that high damage makes for more skilled metas is an objective fact regardless of framing. A low damage meta where skills hit for 4k is a lot less skillful than a high damage meta where skills hit for 300.

    Haa here we go finally we agree that a damage meta where skills hit for 4k is a lot less skillful than a meta where skills hit for 300. <3
    You wee when you want.
    Again this kind of game is not thetype of game where a fight should end with 2 skills only timing at the right time.

    But this is getting long and tiresome, so lets wrap it up. This new meta is objectively far less skilled. The objectively correct way to play now is to spam mindlessly off cooldown without ever timing it. If you did so pre-patch, it was objectively the worst way to play and instantly lost you the game. The new meta leads to sidenoders having no agency, and to insanely boring matches. And players noticed. Thats why the playerbase took a major hit. The only solution is to revert most of the patch. Or you let the game die. So have fun with your no-skill meta that kills the game.

    Subjectively certainly, now you can let people play (or not play) and wait for next balance.

    Nope, objectively- The only subjective part is you having fun with the no-skill meta, the rest is objective. And no, Id rather not let the game die just because bad players like you prefer no-skill metas where timing doesnt exist, you spam everything off cooldown and rotations are all that matters. The next balance, unless it ups damage across the board, will not save the game.

    Sorry to bother you but again you aren't the "objectivity". What you do is only giving your opinion which is the definition of subjectivity.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    This is getting long. Ill skip over the parts that have already been conclusively concluded to you being wrong.

    Thanks, that's already what I did when you ending accepted being wrong on few things. No need to keep already agreed things.

    You mean the things that had no bearing on the entire argument, like Arcane Thievery, right? Because the only who admitted to being wrong on anything of substance was you.

    Haha seems one is less dishonnest than the other then <3 .

    You are very dishonest. I am not. So yes, that is technically true.

    Just to be clear, out of gold, there is no way opponent will not move. Most opponent have swiftness, the only way you can burst them with only stealth is if they come in front of you, don't cast aoe, don't have aegis, don't have autoproc. Mean the perfect scenario where you have a waiting target to burst isn't real.

    They dont have to not move. They only have to move slower. Which they always will. So its 100% consistent. They dont need to come in front of you, AoE is not relevant, aegis is not relevant (eats the mantra, but that still leaves you with around 11k-15k damage, and they will not have an autoproc that saves them. Its not a perfect scenario, its the average scenario.

    You don't run faster while in stealth and it's not with your op 1 chance over 5 to get swiftness than you will cath up class on perma swiftness.

    But they run slower in combat. And they will be in combat. You will not.

    294 out of combat => 279,3 in combat with swiftness. (600 on raptor btw.).

    Now lets not ignore that thanks to PU you will have swiftness most of the time. So its closer to 400 vs 279. Quite the gap, wouldnt you agree? No chance for them.

    Mean dunno if you every try to make a char with 25% ms and a char with swiftness but the difference mean you will get hard time running after. Moreover if he is in fight, you are very likely to get hit by random AOE.

    You dont have to run after them. You are, again, a +1 class. You rotate to them, and they wont be running away. And being hit by random AoE is irrelevant unless its a stun, but aoe stuns are telegraphed and easily avoided.

    AoE mean : if it's CC aoe, they will see you coming and it will delay your burst window. If it's damage aoe, they will see you coming. If it's condi aoe, it will cripple your burst. Ofc they are relevant and pretty usual.

    You would have to be monumetally unlucky for them to hit AoE CC at the right moment. The other 2 dont matter. If theyre using AoE skills, theyre fighting, and you being hit gives them no information.

    Go watch shadowpass vids link see how much those AoE work.

    Not at all? Again, curious why you refer to videos that disprove you.

    I find funnay that mesmer 100% hit 11k-15k while thief shadowshot only does 2k. 0 bias here.

    2k-3k. And yes, there is indeed no bias there, just cold hard math. Turns out 1.3125 damage coefficient is a lot lower than, what was it, 5-6?

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.

    You have yet to provide any proof. This too is devoid of context. I see youre a bit more clever this time around however. No Double Strike that immediately disproves what you want to show. But you got sloppy. We see Forceful Bash and Elemental Blast doing almost the same damage (92%) to be exact. However, its supposed to do 56% of the damage. Once again, a discrepancy, pointing towards high vulnerability or might stacks. Most likely what increased shadow shots damage as well. So good luck, maybe next time try finding "proof" that is actually proof. Yknow, include context. Youve recorded videos before, why arent you doing that again? Is it perhaps that the most recent video you showed actually had a thief in it using D/P, which showed him hitting for 2.5k?

    Using shadowshot when the opponent is ready for it will fail miserably, it has animation, even from stealth, as you said the projectile is low.
    They kitten rarely used it to come melee, they will mostly use steal for this.
    The most valuable things with apart the damage is blind.

    As I said. Dont talk about classes you dont know. Sure, they can dodge it, but thats not a good dodge, and you could punish them for it. Its used almost exclusively for gapclosing, since steal is used when engaging and happens to have a long cooldown. The blind is nice, but the least relevant part of the entire thing.

    A dodge who prevent 4-5k damage, 5 sec blind and a thief in your kitten damaging you is IMO a good dodge.

    2-3k. Not 4-5k. Again, dont talk about classes you dont know about. Blind duration doesnt matter, it gets cleared immediately. Its a really bad dodge.

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.
    I haven't enough condi clear to clear blind during a burst.

    Attacks clear blind. You know that, right? As for the "proof" see above. Its still worthless.

    Ho sorry, I miss that's I'm supposed to be dishonnest, thanks for remind me this by not knowing when to stop quoting.
    Then : Backstab hasn't hudge setup, with spamming heartseeker stealth stack, you have a higher burst windows than some class with might/weakness/modifier with lesser duration. + it's always the same combo, you don't have to rely on proc to value them. Not even talking about requiring field rotation for certain class while other just had to throw attacks and it work.

    Backstab doesnt have a huge setup, but it does have a huge downside. You can use it when engaging, and then youre basically locked out of it for the entire fight, or at best get a frontal backstab which does a lot less damage. The burst window is much lower. The rest of what you say is nonsense, as usual.

    The rupt part when traited is what make it highly valuable. The burst window is the time you are in stealth waiting to time your burst while other rely on vuln application or modifier proc for example.

    Backstab doesnt interrupt, it has a single boonrip. Also, youre not gonna be waiting in stealth, because you wont go into stealth mid-combat, other than when using blinding powder as a stunbreak.

    Steal has. You have enough stealth duration to time well the opening.

    You dont use stealth mid-combat. You use it once youve disengaged from combat, or to engage. In either case, the duration is meaningless. And sure, steal has an interrupt, but then Im not sure what youre trying to say anymore.

    A good thief nowing I play rupt will not play D/P with plethora of rupt windows, that's all. It's wall adaptation, but for this you should understand that there are builds out of S metabattle tiers that will work better in some situations.

    A good thief is a +1 class. They do not care if you use interrupts, they only fight you in a 2v1, and at that point youre dead meat. And they will not kitten themselves by playing the worst weaponset thief has access to, just to beat one already not viable class. There is no situation in the game where D/D works better. Its an unviable playstyle. And by admitting that you see it a lot, you tanked your credibility and your entire argument.

    A thief coming +1 with his main setup ruptable against a dedicated rupt build couldn't do anything and forced to go away. Will screen next time I see top thief on DD because you only work with proves.

    Yeah, because in a 1v2 where the thief opens with a backstab you will totally have the time to interrupt him without dying. For that matter, why do you think DD fares better? If anything, it has the more interruptible skills.

    You will never figure it as long as you never meet this in game

    Ive played lots of almost all classes. What youre describing is a fantasy scenario. in reality, interrupts wont save you there, and D/D is one of the by far worst builds in the entire game. Its certainly the worst thief build in the game. It also doesnt do any better against interrupts.

    Yep one yesterday : https://ibb.co/0n9rMgm
    I'm pretty sure this game was streamed by someone, will look is I have time is not I will continue screenshot until you accept that you should not play paladin thief.

    You failed to provide context. And once again, we get the same suspicious damage discrepancy. Double strike does 0.3 damage, shadow shot 1.3125. Meaning shadow shot does about 4.4 times the damage. And yet, the shadow shot actually did 9 times the damage. And theyre both crits. This is normally impossible. Conclusion: 25 might vs 25 vuln situation which is obviously not applicable. So sorry, this again proves the opposite.

    It's the second screen, no problem I will screen more until you accept the truth. And no I haven't 25 might/vuln : I was fighting a ranger and I don't play might build who could be steal.
    It's crazy that even why prooves you can't accept it.

    Its the second highly suspicious screen. I cant accept what youre showing, because its not the truth, its a lie. Whatever these screenshots are, proof they are not. As I explained. The damage is higher than it can be. If double strike does 600, Shadow Shot can only do 3k. Its basic math. You should be capable of it.

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.

    Why do you repeat the same thing 3 time. But lets just make it clear. The amount of proof you have shown so far is 0. Every screenshot missing context, and every time damage doesnt add up ,showing that its might or vuln shenanigans, as always.

    Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.
    You should be genius gamedesigner.

    Yes, if were talking about the fact that no one ever dies in a 1v1, kills that happened when they werent in a 1v1 dont count. Are you just trolling now? Also you, who doesnt even understand the fundamentals of game design shouldnt talk.

    You talk about the fundamentals of 5v5 conquest who is all about rotating so since launche there is outnumbered situations ?
    No one dies in a 1v1 because thoses who 1v1 aren't the +1, neither the squishy.

    The fundamentals of 5v5 is that outnumbering helps but isnt required. That is no longer the case. No one dies in a 1v1 because damage as a whole is too low. Full stop. The ones who 1v1 are squishy. But squishy when damage is too low is the same as tanky.

    Lol just no, even if I do the hypothesis that 1v1 is a thing, as long as the 1v1 end, it's not anymore even number on the map.

    Thats a good thing. As a sidnoder, youre supposed to be able to win and make the map uneven. Youre supposed to have the ability to impact the game, to have agency. What youre arguing is that sidenoders should just be meaningless pawns who might as well be bots. How selfish can you be, that you want your enjoyment at the cost of others?

    Do a level 1 mesmer, go to PvP (or minimum level to go in.) use PU, show me how well you "stack" thoses boon please.

    Quite well. Also I still have my old power mesmer around, no need to make a new class. Unlike you, I dont talk about classes I dont know (Which at this point is pretty much just necro).

    Aaaand where is your high protection uptime ? I hope for you you get a "lucky strike" on RNG to highlight us how good it is for this.

    Why do you need high uptime? Any amount of protection is better than no protection. Especially when against the highest damage ones.

    When you are in steatlth, sure little protetion is better than nothing, but you highly prefer it while revealed.

    You still have the protection while revealed for a bit. Its also not the only source. Man youre not even good at this dishonesty thing.

    I face holo everyday and I they catch me on no vertical things, I can't escape now the top player @UNOwen.7132 will say that's because I don't know how to use my 10 utility build.

    Without looking at your build, I can guess that youre probably screwing up hard, much like pre-patch where you were "always at 15% hp". But your bad play is not the benchmark. Between 2 equal players, the mesmer always escapes.

    Considering misha spend most games low life as well, I will put my badness apart.

    I wouldve thought that after I pointed out your lie here, you wouldve dropped it, but no, guess youre still lying. No, Misha spent the vast majority of his games at medium to high health, only dropping low when messing up or outnumbered. You spent them at low health, because you were always messing up.

    The only moment where he is full life is when running out of combat between points. But hey I miss that this was the "fun" prepatch gameplay running around point only fighting few sec each time.

    To repeat myself "I wouldve thought that after I pointed out your lie here, you wouldve dropped it, but no, guess youre still lying.". No, that too is a bad lie. You know what he was doing most of the time he was mid-full health? ACTIVELY FIGHTING. He was getting in scraps left and right, hitting them, getting hit by them. But he didnt go low-life. Do you know why? He is a good player. He knows how to avoid the big hitters, and minimise damage. But evidently, you didnt.

    Sorry I'm not facing bot when I play.
    Maybe I should do a F2P account to see your meta.

    Strawman. I just explained that they cant react. It works consistently on even the best player. You should know that, its your class. Evidently you dont know your own class.

    Good players moves, casts, rotates, they will not stay afking on point wainting to be burst.

    How many times do I have to repeat this until you get it? They are moving*. But moving doesnt save them. Because the burst cant be reacted to and is 100% consistent even on moving targets. Christ, how do you not know your own class?

    Watch non biased vids from anti-mes people. Mean we have the best prove we can ever get about this from someone who want nerf mesmers who play it to highlghit how op it was. Dunno why you keep denying efforts he does doing this.

    He did that. And the video shows that every time he went for the combo it went off without a hitch. Again, your uncanny ability to disprove yourself is almost admirable.

    :D certainly, certainly, you can't even look at the prove you linked on this build haha.

    This sentence makes no sense. You can watch Misha do the bursts, he played the build. The "autoprocs" dont do jack.

    And how many bursts he launch that effectively hit ?

    All of them? Did you not watch the video?

    Yep and I see many fails.

    He messes up the combo itself, or doesnt go for it, but every time he goes for the combo, it succeeds. So no, you dont.

    Are you so biased that you think bountiful blades existed pre-patch or it's just a mistake ?
    You know before there was the stunt trait of this lockburst build who is now just a burst build with near inexistant chances to hit with the burst.

    Since when are we talking pre-patch here?

    Since you talk bout core PU burst being "meta" prepatch. And that there is no need to lock before bursting while having high clone production.

    It was viable pre-patch. Meta, not so much, it was on the lower end. The lock was not irrelevant, but it was also not neccessary. The burst works without it.

    The lock was ofc relevant. and the clone generation was bad. Nice we agree about this evidence.

    Relevant, not neccessary. Clone generation maybe, I didnt care much to check that.

    Currently there is ONE mesmer playing it on gold3/plat. he ins't on LB and it's even worse than before.
    Dunno which meta version did you talk about because there isn't a more meta version of power core.

    "meta version" is the best version of the build. But hey, you finally admitted that Mesmer has fewer viable builds now than before, and all builds it had got worse. Progress.

    Yeah so there is no a hypotethic meta version of this.
    Now I never consider this build meta, particulary since you can't secure your burst, the only things valuable in this build, and since they halves mobility.

    A meta version is just the best version. Every build has a meta version, its just not neccessarily that the build itself is meta. The build wasnt meta, since it lacked mobility, but it was viable, since it was a reliable and consistent high burst.

    Can't wait to see the "chrono" meta build in action :D .

    There was one in a MAT pre-patch actually. Won the whole thing, too. I think it was december EU? Check it out if you will.

    Nop, the outcome is : the thief has just to use his better stealth uptime, time 4 skills and it's over.
    A mesmer can't fight a spellbreaker on point because he can free FC on illusions. He can only kite around in this setup and a sniper can do better at this.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh boy, you really are a riot. Yeah thief is going to use stealth in-combat, and the mesmer wont just interrupt it or punish and kill him. Yeah its clear you dont know either class. Thief could never kill the mesmer. But the mesmer usually couldnt either. A deadlock. And a mesmer can fight a spellbreaker much better than any thief can.

    If the thief play S/D versus a rupt mesmer yeah, but it's a lack of knowledge issue. But you probably never go out of your "meta" to see the possibilities and adaptations some players does.

    S/D cant kill Mesmer either. No Thief can, damage isnt there. Mesmer will struggle to kill the thief, but its possible.

    Thief dictate mesmer meta during most of this game from core game to now but they can't kill mesmers, yeah yeah yeah.

    About SP encouter it's clearly build dependant, post patch during the condi thief hype, come say me mesmer kill a SP faster than a thief.

    Yeah you wouldve been able to kill much faster. Condi thief had a bit of an issue against burst cleanses and resistance. Warrior has burst cleanses, and resistance. Its sustained condi pressure warrior struggles against, but condi thief doesnt really provide that.

    Genius. Tell this to every war during few post-patch condi thief hype. Strangely since they nerf it there is more wars but it probably has nothing correlated.

    I play warrior, occasionally. Well, I did, its current state is too sad even for me. Condi thief was not the issue. Its one of the few condi builds that shake it off and brawlers recovery alone can handle completely. Condi rev and condi necro are worse, but the real issue warrior has is lack of damage and knockback. And as for the second part, there arent any more warriors, theyre just as rare now. Its not even a coencidental correlation, its not a correlation at all.

    Yeah 0% chances to fail, it's really strange we don't see this 100% chance of hit burst build on every mesmers.
    Ho wait ....

    Which part of "damage is too low so there is no point playing a burst build" is too difficult for you to understand? Or how about "mobility is king for +1s, so Mesmer suffers there"? Are you just too stupid.

    It's not about the damage it's about the fact that a monoburst build is less efficient than a multiburst build. Should the multi burst have slighy less output.

    Its about the damage. There is no such thign as a "multiburst build". Youre just saying nonsense while trying to defend your increasingly obviously ridiculous statements.

    6k ins't peanuts, so yeah there is multi pressure builds.

    For a burst build, it is. And thats what you were showing, a burst build. For a sustained damage build its probably one of their spikier skills, but then they dont burst.

    I can list 3 to 4 SB, 1 mesmer on NA while playing in EU and I don't follow weaver so I dunno about them.
    Who are thoses famous many mesmers streamers ?

    Are you talking about right now? Yeah no one plays Mesmer right now, the patch killed diversity. Did you forget?

    Nop I'm talking before the patch. Which mesmers streamed ?

    Iunno, I didnt care to catch their name. I just saw them on the page.

    Because they didn't extists, thanks we agreed one more time. Ho and if you talk about Jazz : it was occasional montages and he don't play actively in LB. BTW it's no more than 1 guy.

    Nope, they existed. But much like I can name like, 2 thief streamers (but Im sure there are more) and 1 Engineer streamer (ditto), I just didnt care to catch their name.

    Yeah, buff thief, give it more evade, reduce his CD and more stealth option, it's clearly the blacksheep of sustain in GW2.

    It is. Why do you think thief only has +1 builds and hasnt had a sidenoder or 1v1 build since 2015? Granted, thief probably shouldnt be able to, but thats why they arent able to.

    Because thief never had hit&run gameplay who allow them to have the MU against few encounter ... because mobility ins't sustain....

    Yeah thief is "hit and run". It hits someone in a +1, and runs otherwise. There is however no matchup where thief won the 1v1. And mobility indeed isnt sustain. If you can disengage and heal up, so do they.

    Nop thief hit and run until the guy die, you know from LoS. Depending on the spec is already managable to kill someone 1v1, go to few snipers stream, they have the MU against certain type of builds while S/D on other etc.

    Nice theory, except that doesnt work. Every time the thief goes in for a hit, he gets hit back harder. And every time he stays at range to regenerate, his enemy regenerates faster. And his effective health is much lower. So its not "hit and run until the guy dies", its "hit and run until the thief dies". It simply doesnt work. So you dont kill anyone in a 1v1. By design.

    NO one will used boonrip on a thief considering it's more valuable on other spec.

    Implying boon rip is not something some classes just have pretty much baseline and throw out a lot. Yeah.

    Which again is not near to be a normal situation on a +1 class.

    It is actually a normal situation, lots of boonrips or corrupts just flying around.

    Who are thoses aoe not requiring target ? I know only 2.

    Mesmer has more vigor than thief, yeah give thief 30 sec vigor on steal so he can compete lol. You should stop eating dangerous thins, it's not anymore dreaming here. I'm worried about you health.

    More? No, not quite. However, Mesmer has more instances of vigor. So boonrip and boon corrupt is far less brutal. And man, you, as someone who always lives in a fantasy world, really shouldnt be talking.

    I don't consider 1.5 sec on shatter has a good instances of vigor, the only good instance is 8 sec every 25 sec on a skill you would use to blind or pressuring.
    The 3 sec on crit can't be even considered post-patch as they removed condition on crit.

    What is "critical infusion"? What is "False Oasis"? What is "Vigor on shatter". Mind you as I said, the total amount is lower, but its more instances. Thief has just the 1. Rip it, and he is screwed. Rip the infusion vigor, and mesmer has 3 more.

    I already list them apart oasis. List me the way to "rip" it.

    Spinal Shivers and Lesser spinal shivers. Mind Spike, every Necro corrupt, rending shade, bountiful theft. Oh and a bunch of Mesmer and Warrior things, but theyre not good right now.

    I'm not a unviable class, the is currently 3 mes top 100 and around 6 top 250. Which is better than last season. Thanks to worry about me thought.

    Mesmer is an unviable class. It was far better pre-patch. Try playing a viable class, and you see it doesnt matter.

    There is currently more mes in LB than preptach, so at last it seems it less "unviable" than before lol.

    That is categorically wrong. There were a few pre-patch. There appear to be almost none now. Additionally, there are now no Mesmers in MAT, when pre-patch they were a very common sight. They are far more unviable now. Pre-patch mesmer was good, now its unviable. Simple as that.

    ? this evening there is 4 top 100. Prepatch there were 2. The only difference is now there isn't in Mat. But again mAt and LB have different representations.

    They do not. And pre-patch there were a whole lot more than 2. Im not surprised that there are 4 now. Most good players left, so even underpowered classes get representation.

    Facerolling didn't mean spamming only evade, when you roll properly your head on you keyboard you go from left to right and vice versa, so you launch one CC every few damaging skills. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Ah, good old backtracking "oh they facerolled". "Ok they didnt really faceroll, they timed their skills and staggered them, but its still totally facerolly I promise !!1!!1!!". Next you just have to admit "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost".

    Even the worst faceroller will not launch all his CC first, then all his damage, then all his sustain. It's basics.¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Thats not facerolling. Come on, the last step is simple. Just say "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost". Its an easy thing to admit.

    Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing. Which has nothing to do with the kind of skills you keep spam.
    Dunno why you worsed the faceroll level even more than it was.

    Yes, thats what it means. What youre however saying is "Ok, but you do care about timing, but its totally still facerolling". As I said. Just say "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost". Its the truth. And the thing with the truth is, its easy to admit.

    Mean if on my a condi mes I'm fighting a chaos mes, I will certainly no use F3 while he is on condi pressure you know, it's basics.

    Thats not what facerolling means. But good job admitting that you were wrong.

    Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing. Which has nothing to do with the kind of skills you keep spam.

    Wow, that is impressive cognitive dissonance. "Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing.". "Oh but they didnt spam skills without timing, they actually timed them to not waste all of them". These 2 things contradict each other. Yeesh.

    Timing is launching a skill countering or interacting with opponent skills.

    Well, almost correct. Its also using the skill when you know it will have maximum effectiveness. But sure.

    Rollfacing is rotate his skills while not taking in account the timing when opponents use his skills.

    This is true. Its funny though, despite the fact that you know the correct definition, you get the presence of it the wrong away around. Right now, you do that. Pre-patch, you didnt do that. Because if you tried to, you would instantly lose.

    Which has nothing to do that spamming condi skills with no CC remain faceroll.

    Correct. But thats what we have right now. What we had pre-patch is the opposite.

    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?

    Then the Mesmer just runs away and doesnt die. Its a +1 class, remember.

    So easy to do after going melee.

    Yes, it is quite easy.

    Not on the said build.

    It is. Against anything other than thief, and warrior on flat ground (but pvp hardly has flat ground).

    We talk about a build that has only blink as a reliable out of melee. So no it isn't.

    Not quite. You have blink, you have illusionary wave to create a distance, and you have clone stealth, which fixes the biggest issue stealth has for running away. Combine any number of these 3, and you get out ezpz.

    Yep it's the problem, considering the burst haven't a 100% chances of hit (you can even look shadowpass vids if you want a anti-mesmer view he go into it trying to prove it was op.), and even if it hit, it hasn't 100% chances to 100-0 HP, the problem is more about going out of opponent preparing the next burst than landing the initial tickle.

    It had a near 100% chance of hitting. And for most classes, it instantly downed them. Those were not the issues with it. The fact that it lacked mobility is. +1 classes dont really need to have much damage, they just need to be fast. But as I said, you just dont know your own class.

    Look at shadowpass vids, it's a anti-mesmer view at the time this build was the most efficient, just figure out the "high" chance of hitting.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88768/eu-ranked-pvp-on-core-mantra-mesmer/p1
    Mean it's not even my "biased" opinion.

    Did you watch the video? Every time he went for the out of stealth burst combo, he got it. So yeah, its nearly guaranteed to hit. Man you really can only find videos that show the opposite of what you want to show.

    Dunno what video did you watch over all of theses but majority are about how the burst is unreliable and don't 100-0 people.

    Nope. The videos show the burst to be super-reliable and either 100-0, or get close to it, on most targets. What they also show is that the guy playing it isnt very good at the build, so he screws up the combo, but thats a different axis.

    When you are under chill when a zerk reaper jump on you, you fear way more the non-damaging condition than the damaging one, same when a zerk war immobilize you, somes class slow/weakness you so you can't counter pressure etc.
    Clearing non damaging condition can't be considered as useless.

    They are in long drawn out fights. Youre a +1 class. You dont have long drawn out fights. In those, you only care about damaging conditions.

    Nop, if you are a +1 power class and weakness/high blind pop on you, you clearly don't care about it.

    Yup, you dont care. The blind clears after 1 attack, and weakness lowers your damage, but you dont need much. Especially since both of those only hit you after your initial burst, when youre just cleaning up. Again, not rocket science.

    Blind clear after 1 attack. Your first attack is GS2 if you are blind : no clone, no GS2 damage = -6k damage. It's not just a "don't care" things in this build who is all about the right position and the right timing.

    Mantra of Pain. Clears the blind, your burst hits. But again, you are missing the part where "both of those only hit you after your initial burst, when youre just cleaning up. Again, not rocket science.". At that point being blinded does jack kitten.

    Weakness don't only lower your damage it nullify your crits mean you hit like a noddle. And ranger weakness is widely used.

    First of all, again, that hits after you burst. So it doesnt matter. Second, Ranger doesnt use weakness at all right now. Neither power zerk, nor the much less good power Soulbeast. Whoops?

    Only because you backward on precision, don't be happy too fast.

    This sentence makes no sense. And no, its just because you are slowly realising you cant defend your own positions. Soon enough, youll accept you were wrong about everything all along.

    I'm not the one saying PU mesmer, which main sustain is basically around stealth is okish, while thief stealth is bad sustain.

    PU Mesmers survivability (not sustain) is not focused on stealth at all. Because stealth as survivability is awful. Its sustain is good because of evades, invulns and damage reduction. Which thief has less of all of those (or none, in the latter 2).

    ... Thief has less evade than PU mesmer ... New fun fact.

    Its not really new. Its been that way since S/D stopped being used. D/P thief has 1 0.75 seconds evade every 30 seconds. Mesmer has 1 1 second evade every 8 seconds. Its a pretty massive gap.

    Protection during stealth isn''t out of stealth damage reduction.

    It persists even out of stealth.

    Invul with average 2 clone mean 50 sec CD 2 sec inul.

    3 seconds. You didnt forget how distortion works, did you?

    Such a high survivability compared to thief.

    Yes. 1 1 second evade every 8 seconds, and 3 seconds of invulnerability every 50 seconds and multiple sources of protection and higher baseline EHP are much better than 1 0.75 second evade every 30 seconds and nothing else.

    And there isn't a trait in the metab build who reduce swipe duration.

    By 15%. But oh, whats this? Mesmer has the exact same trait? Well now.

    Glab you admit thief boon steal isn't worst than mesmer boon steal.

    Why would it be? Mesmer has like 1 boon steal skill, the rest just rip boons.

    Because we talk about vigor uptime.

    We dont. Thiefs vigor uptime is better. But if it gets ripped, thief is screwed. His vigor accessibility is considerably worse.

    NO, core power mesmer use mantra of pain. You even wrote it and the 10 utility build still doesn't exist after trying to make it a reality since 3 answers.

    They all use mantra of pain. Its part of the burst rotation. Stop lying about it being a "10 utility build" and accept the fact that you do not know your own class. That should make you think.

    No, rupt mesmers use mantra of distraction. Just watch Jazz vids.

    Were not talking about rupt mesmer, because the build was never focused on interrupts. It was focused on burst. And burst is what mantra of pain provides.

    ??? The only thing Jazz build is about is RUPT and timing them. Ask him, ask every player about this if you doubt, it's insane.

    I have no idea who Jazz is, nor do I care. Im not talking about his build.

    PU build never focused on interrupts yep, dunno why you wrote it uses mantra of distraction.

    The videos you kept showing. The ones you thought helped your case but disprove it in actuality. He uses both mantras.

    They can't run mantra of pain AND mantra of distraction it's two different purpose on had 2 differents builds synergy.

    Funny that you say that after linking shadowpass who, guess what? Uses both. Whoops?

    Because the link on shadowpass is about how reliable the burst isn't. It's even more visible with the ultra stunt on MoD. It take place before pre-patch and wasn't played at all in mAt during at this time. Because playing 2 mantra wasn't the meta build we talk about looking at misha.

    Whether or not it was the meta build wasnt the question, just whether or not they can run it. Evidently they can. And the link shows that the burst is very reliable, so long as you dont screw up. But I guess thats a common pattern, isnt it? Everything you talk about the old meta having, is just a result of you screwing up repeatedly.

    Illusiory wave ins't "intterupts" you don't interrupt keyskill with a 0.5 visible cast CC. Another lie, but come on it's probably your best post looking at this.

    Yes, you cant interrupt key skills like Glyph of revival, after all .5 seconds isnt enough to stop a checks notes 2 second cast time skill. Wait.

    You are always in the best situation at 450 range with blink up, when it happend yep, carefully saved your wave for this on a no cover target, nice paper theory.

    Dont need to be a best situation, its a pretty average one. Remember, this is pretty much whats happened in the MOTA multiple times. Mesmer can do it just as well.

    There is mesmer waving in the MOTA now ? Which other teleport is a 450 range ?

    Nope, but close range interrupts on glyphs are what happened. And Mesmer can do it just as well.

    Yeah thieves never win 1v1. It's all opponent fault to play worse build or don't be reactive enough.

    They indeed do not. Unless you include finishing off low health targets. This is like the first lesson a thief learns, "never fight 1v1". Again, dont talk about classes you havent got the faintest clue about.

    I should present you plat players who have fun duelling on their thieves. Like I have on my build.

    Given matchmaking, that happens when theyre against worse players (significantly worse). But against a player of similar skill level, thief does not win the 1v1, ever. Well, maybe condi mirage if it wasnt unplayable.

    I'm pretty sure we can found some misha vs sind sparring somewhere.

    "maybe condi mirage if it wasnt unplayable.".

    Stay in yours then. And let people enjoy others.

    There is only one reality. Not "my" reality, the reality. What youre in is a fantasy world.

    Yep and how can you be sure that what you describe is ?

    Evidence, math, objective measures. All of which point to it.

    That's what I call subjective looking at them.

    This sentence doesnt make sense, but youre not big on objectivity. Reality is just an obstacle to you.

    Already anwer up : Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.

    Because we are talking about 1v1s. Of course kills that happen when they arent in 1v1s dont count. Once again, are you just trolling? Or are you legitimately just too ignorant to understand something so simple?

    You barely 1v1ing, even pre-patch. Mean even if at the beginning, someone 1v1ing close and one of the two blow, the reste of the game isn't even number anymore.

    No you 1v1d a fair bit pre-patch. Rotations were important, but you couldnt rotate 24/7. And yes, if you 1v1 and one dies, that has a big impact. Thats good. Thats how the game is supposed to work.

    If one die currently it already has a big impact and rotating are always important. And more before pre-patch we already had tank build from time to time, with less hate you seems to have against someone building to survive.

    So much kitten to unpack. Lets start. "If one die currently it already has a big impact" sure, but thats not the point. The point is that that doesnt happen without outnumbering, which makes for bad games. "And more before pre-patch we already had tank build from time to time, with less hate you seems to have against someone building to survive." good lord, are you really that dense? Tank builds are fine. They still lose 1v1s eventually, and they have their own weakness, thats what makes them work. The problem is that right now every build is a tank build. Worse yet, they dont even die like old tank builds do, nor do they have any weaknesses.

    Why is it so hard understanding that it's normal in 5v5 conquest to have outnumbered situations and that they count ?

    Why is it so hard for you to understand that they dont count for 1v1 situations. How can you not have the minimal capability for thought needed to understand that 1v1ing is supposed to end without outside interference otherwise 1v1 classes have no agency? Yes, outnumbered situations happen. Thats good. But they should be a benefit, not a requirement.

    Because 1v1 in PvP like GvG in WvW is not what lead to win, what appended pre-patch with good players 1v1 is one of them running away when loosing, they don't die either.

    Losing the fight or dying makes little difference. The point is that you lose a fight. And why are you bringing up GvG or WvW which are entirely different gamemodes? For that matter do you not know that roaming exists in WvW?

    Powercreep is what make all game look the same, destroy class diversity and make game boring as hell.

    And thats why after the recent powerdip patch, all games look the same, class diversity was destroyed and the game is boring as all hell. While under the "powercreep" patch, class diversity was strong, the games all looked very different, and were very exciting. Yeah. As I said, powerdip is much worse. And were seeing that in realtime.

    I don't consider everyone attacking under streoïds with only colors effects who changes as a very exciting different setup.

    Yes but that was again still only your fantasy world. In the real world, we had great class diversity and build diversity. While now every sidenoder is a knockback class. That is indeed not very exciting.

    Not it wasn't great, same downward slope, same gameplay with only little changes during years. Some class pretty boring to play even with powercreep.

    "I wouldve thought that after I pointed out your lie here, you wouldve dropped it, but no, guess youre still lying.". It was great. The game was stagnant pre-patch. We werent getting a lot of new players, but neither were we losing them. It was a precarious equilbrium. Then the patch hits, and after the awfulness of the changes becomes clear, the population takes a nosedive. Unlike now where it is indeed the same gameplay across all classes and all patches, the gameplay pre-patch changed rapidly in just the span of a single month. Builds got swapped around multiple times, entire comps were created and then switched away from all in that one month. As opposed to now, where the meta hasnt changed in almost half a year.

    It funny how people tend to improve the past. At this rate I want to come back to vanilla WvW mesmer golden time.

    They dont. In this case, people just tried to worsen the present. Now, that we got a "fix" for the "problems" those people claimed there to be, we realised those "problems" never existed, and that the game was a lot better than those people claimed. The old meta wasnt perfect, but it was far better than this kitten.

    ... are you this underrate or you just don't know what are you talking about ?
    What in chrono give sustain ?
    The heal on wells ? clone generation from core signet + blind or reflect bypass this easily.
    The shield ? OH sword did the same with not the "phantasm who failed top op if the opponent evade" side effect.
    Precognition well ? invul on signet bypass them.
    Not even talking about shatter reset, boosted heal.
    How the kitten can core signet be less tankier than destroyed chrono pre-patch, just how ?

    You dont understand how important channeled blocks, AoE invades or healing are, got it. Stop talking about classes you dont know.

    Lol
    Give me the number please or just admit you smoke bad grass. Double F4 alone make signet mes way ahead chrono talking about sustain.

    Look them up yourself. Its not difficult.

    It's prettu difficult because I already explained why signet is more tanky.

    You didnt. You just threw out a bunch of words and then tried to handwave them. You compared heals to reflects (??????) ignoring that the class also had reflects. You ignore that 2 channeled blocks are a lot better than anything sword has (or the fact that signet mesmer doesnt use sword). You ignore the damage reductions. Or the reset button that is continuum shift, which even matches signets of illusion. You ignore every part of reality that goes against your fantasy.

    You know I can look at them as long as I want, it will not magically pop something who don't exist.

    Then you just need to see what is there, and stop averting your eyes.

    It's a 4 seconds burst, it's not 400% HP, we aren't talking about PoF start mirage but about pre-patch mirage.
    Mean if every mesmers whiners are persuaded that we are in the PoF launch state, that explain many things.

    It isnt, it is, we indeed arent. Youre just ignorant, as always.

    I give screenshots, show me a prepatch vid about a mesmer playing 400% HP "burst".

    You give screenshots that are suspicious and undoubtedly made in a 25 might vs 25 vuln situation (since they are literally otherwise impossible). Its not just not proof, its the opposite. Its falsified proof. Besides, again, you can look that up yourself.

    No problem I will continue screenshot, when every thief does the same damage you will maybe start admiting that damages aren't low.

    And you will continue to only keep the screenshots that happen with high might and/or high vuln, and ignore the many, many 2-3k shadow shots you take. And you will continue to think that your cherrypicking without showing the context is "proof". Sadly for you, you already made an error. You uploaded a video showing a thief hitting you for 2.5k with shadow shot. So much for "every thief does the same damage".

    Sorry I fail to see the dancing people last mAt, but ho it's because they were outnumbering or fighting, which is basically : playing the game.


    If they were fighting 1v1, they were wasting time. Its not "playing the game", its playing a checkout simulator. Dreadfully dull. The game has gone to hell.

    They don't waste time, is they don't fight, they lose the point.

    Nah, its a waste of time. They wont die, even if they dont fight. The most that can happen is that they get knocked back. Which is not exciting. There is a reason we saw the synchronised dancing, because there was no point in fighting. As there isnt now. The only reason you fight is 2-fold. One, knockbacks, two, to make +1ing for your team easier. If however your team will never +1, and the enemy has no knockback, there is no point in fighting. And even if those are the case, its still a waste of time. Incredibly dull.

    Show me how you don't die staying afk on point. I'm pretty curious.

    Who says they stay afk? Just use defenses and dont bother attacking. Its not fighting, but they still dont die.

    Thats specific teamcomps, but the thing is, those are rare, and theyre still visible on the leaderboard. But no, when it comes to class frequency, theyre nearly identical.

    Which mean that mAT frequency and LB frequency are differents, thanks.

    Nope. But good try.

    Different setup, different frequencies, it's obvious that there is build who only perform wil 5 coordinated guys while other work with only 2 guys.

    Except you will find those builds still get played at the same rate on the leaderboard. The frequencies are the same.

    No like said, mesmer are the best example pre and post patch.

    They arent. Pre-patch mesmer was as common on the leaderboard as it was in the MATs. Post-patch its as non-existent on the leaderboard as it is in MATs.

    I don't need knoback to pressure enough dps class to go out of point hopefully.

    "hopefully". Sorry to dash your hopes. You do. As I said, its literally the meta. Its the only thing that matters on a micro level. Otherwise you just wait to be outnumbered.

    Nop I don't, if a zerk ranger or holo just stay on point while I'm pewpewting them they will die as I'm free to optimal pressure.

    If youre alone, they will not. You keep attacking them. Trying desperately to kill them. But every time their health dips below 50%, it immediately shoots back up. Yet you keep trying, hoping in vain that this time will be different. But it isnt. Yet you keep trying. You cant even remember how much time has passed, but it feels like an eternity. Your fingers are getting tired from pressing every button off cooldown. Youre just hoping, desperately for them to somehow die. But they dont. You are trapped. An endless loop for all eternity.

    You think a zerk ranger getting hit 60% by opening with his heal rupt on a 15 sec CD will stay on point laughting at me ?

    He isnt going to get hit for 60%. Or anywhere close. He has passive regen. And he uses his healskill under stability. But I can tell why you think otherwise. Youve never fought a zerk ranger, have you?

    Ok that little detour aside, you wont. Your damage is far below what is neccessary to kill them.

    Don't worry, I'm laughting too.
    What append if powercreep give people low CD so that they can endless spam ?

    Interesting hypothesis. Sadly for you, its once again just your fantasy world. Such a thing never existed. And if youre laughing about your own stupidity, well at least youre a good sport.

    Nop, it was real that's also why they increase many CD post patch and gut most quickness uptime.

    It wasnt. The reason they increased CD was under the false assumption that it makes the game "more tactical". It didnt. Quickness uptime was reduced because quickness was too powerful when well-timed and used with well-timed skills. When used with spamming it was useless, but only really bad players spammed.

    Sure you neo now, you see the matrix behind the dev and prep-pacth whines post about rollface and quickness issues.

    Pretty sure they openly explained thats why quickness was getting nerfed. And as we have already established, facerolling was the worst way you could play pre-patch, and instantly lost you the game. But since I tire of you denying reality, let me make it clear to you. If you deny this fact once more, you are no different from a flat earther. So, do you think the earth is flat?

    Thanks Mr the new famous scientist for this fact, "the higher the damage, the better it is" haha.

    Its a piece of old game design knowledge. There is a cap, of course, but yeah, its a fact. A fact youre too ignorant to understand.

    It's only a opium things : "wow I feel so strong seeing high numbers on my screen".

    Hahahahahahahaha. Oh god, you really are this clueless, huh? No, that little thing is only why you see MMO damage be 4 and 5 digits, instead of 2 and 3 digits. But, the fact that high damage makes for more skilled metas is an objective fact regardless of framing. A low damage meta where skills hit for 4k is a lot less skillful than a high damage meta where skills hit for 300.

    Haa here we go finally we agree that a damage meta where skills hit for 4k is a lot less skillful than a meta where skills hit for 300. <3

    You are indeed this clueless. The first is a low skill meta, but the damage numbers are higher. This is GW2. The latter is a high skill meta, but the skills hit for less. This is Samurai Shodown. A low-damage meta like GW2 is far less skillful than a high damage meta like Samurai Shodown, despite the fact that the damage numbers are lower on shodown. But the thing is, health is also a lot lower in shodown. Its the ratio thats important.

    Again this kind of game is not thetype of game where a fight should end with 2 skills only timing at the right time.

    And they didnt. However it is the type of game where a fight should end in a 1v1. And they dont. Its a game where you should be able to punish people for their mistakes. You cant right now. Its a game where facerolling should be the worst way to play. Its the best way right now.

    But this is getting long and tiresome, so lets wrap it up. This new meta is objectively far less skilled. The objectively correct way to play now is to spam mindlessly off cooldown without ever timing it. If you did so pre-patch, it was objectively the worst way to play and instantly lost you the game. The new meta leads to sidenoders having no agency, and to insanely boring matches. And players noticed. Thats why the playerbase took a major hit. The only solution is to revert most of the patch. Or you let the game die. So have fun with your no-skill meta that kills the game.

    Subjectively certainly, now you can let people play (or not play) and wait for next balance.

    Nope, objectively- The only subjective part is you having fun with the no-skill meta, the rest is objective. And no, Id rather not let the game die just because bad players like you prefer no-skill metas where timing doesnt exist, you spam everything off cooldown and rotations are all that matters. The next balance, unless it ups damage across the board, will not save the game.

    Sorry to bother you but again you aren't the "objectivity". What you do is only giving your opinion which is the definition of subjectivity.

    I never said I am the objectivity. The evidence is the objectivity. Im just a messenger. And no, I say plenty of facts here.

    But since this is getting long and annoying, lets wrap this up. The current meta is far less skilled than the old meta. You simply prefer no-skill metas. I prefer high-skill metas. So lets agree to disagree on whether or not the no-skill meta you prefer is worse than the high-skill meta I prefer, yes?

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭
    now game is more fun

    i found the game was more fun before simply because i had a normal 2 dodges.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020
    now game is more fun

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    This is getting long. Ill skip over the parts that have already been conclusively concluded to you being wrong.

    Thanks, that's already what I did when you ending accepted being wrong on few things. No need to keep already agreed things.

    You mean the things that had no bearing on the entire argument, like Arcane Thievery, right? Because the only who admitted to being wrong on anything of substance was you.

    Haha seems one is less dishonnest than the other then <3 .

    You are very dishonest. I am not. So yes, that is technically true.

    Haha, this proud. I don't think so.

    Just to be clear, out of gold, there is no way opponent will not move. Most opponent have swiftness, the only way you can burst them with only stealth is if they come in front of you, don't cast aoe, don't have aegis, don't have autoproc. Mean the perfect scenario where you have a waiting target to burst isn't real.

    They dont have to not move. They only have to move slower. Which they always will. So its 100% consistent. They dont need to come in front of you, AoE is not relevant, aegis is not relevant (eats the mantra, but that still leaves you with around 11k-15k damage, and they will not have an autoproc that saves them. Its not a perfect scenario, its the average scenario.

    You don't run faster while in stealth and it's not with your op 1 chance over 5 to get swiftness than you will cath up class on perma swiftness.

    But they run slower in combat. And they will be in combat. You will not.

    294 out of combat => 279,3 in combat with swiftness. (600 on raptor btw.).

    Now lets not ignore that thanks to PU you will have swiftness most of the time. So its closer to 400 vs 279. Quite the gap, wouldnt you agree? No chance for them.

    Yeah 3 sec on 1 chances over 5 mean : no, like you can't stack protection with it, you can't stack switfness.

    Mean dunno if you every try to make a char with 25% ms and a char with swiftness but the difference mean you will get hard time running after. Moreover if he is in fight, you are very likely to get hit by random AOE.

    You dont have to run after them. You are, again, a +1 class. You rotate to them, and they wont be running away. And being hit by random AoE is irrelevant unless its a stun, but aoe stuns are telegraphed and easily avoided.

    I will just answer to all your PU power mes statement all in one.

    Come back to your link.
    https://youtu.be/4h3fz84JMhk?t=4483

    Note that this build had high superspeed uptime and stunlock at this time.
    Ho and there were no situations this build one shotting during this final so dunno where your 17k are going lul.

    14:35 burst failed.
    14:09 burst failed.
    13:34 burst hit thanks to 3 v 1.
    13:17 burst failed even being 4v1.
    12:16 burst hit thanks to war bullcharge. You can also look at the mesmer getting weakness from random pop.
    10:48 burst failed.
    10:33 burst hit.
    10:12 burst failed.
    9:36 burst hit.
    8:14 burst failed.
    7:26 burst hit and only take 50% of the thief HP.
    6:30 can't launch burst.
    6:04 burst hit only tanking 50% ele HP. trololo Such insane burst for a dedicated build.
    5:11 burts hit only taking 50% holo HP.
    3:28 burst hit 3v1. First one shot with this build.

    So what we had is :

    • 1 one-shot on a out of CD thief.
    • 14 bursts => 8 hits.

    Mean looking at this it seems even more tanky than now lol. See the boons uptimes from everyone, this is a good powercreep indicator.
    Mean THERE IS RAOUND MORE KILLS IN THE LAST MAT THAN IN THIS kitten.

    AoE mean : if it's CC aoe, they will see you coming and it will delay your burst window. If it's damage aoe, they will see you coming. If it's condi aoe, it will cripple your burst. Ofc they are relevant and pretty usual.

    You would have to be monumetally unlucky for them to hit AoE CC at the right moment. The other 2 dont matter. If theyre using AoE skills, theyre fighting, and you being hit gives them no information.

    Go watch shadowpass vids link see how much those AoE work.

    Not at all? Again, curious why you refer to videos that disprove you.

    Anwsered in the vid analysis.

    I find funnay that mesmer 100% hit 11k-15k while thief shadowshot only does 2k. 0 bias here.

    2k-3k. And yes, there is indeed no bias there, just cold hard math. Turns out 1.3125 damage coefficient is a lot lower than, what was it, 5-6?

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.

    You have yet to provide any proof. This too is devoid of context. I see youre a bit more clever this time around however. No Double Strike that immediately disproves what you want to show. But you got sloppy. We see Forceful Bash and Elemental Blast doing almost the same damage (92%) to be exact. However, its supposed to do 56% of the damage. Once again, a discrepancy, pointing towards high vulnerability or might stacks. Most likely what increased shadow shots damage as well. So good luck, maybe next time try finding "proof" that is actually proof. Yknow, include context. Youve recorded videos before, why arent you doing that again? Is it perhaps that the most recent video you showed actually had a thief in it using D/P, which showed him hitting for 2.5k?

    Will record next time but I don't record 24H when I play you know.

    Using shadowshot when the opponent is ready for it will fail miserably, it has animation, even from stealth, as you said the projectile is low.
    They kitten rarely used it to come melee, they will mostly use steal for this.
    The most valuable things with apart the damage is blind.

    As I said. Dont talk about classes you dont know. Sure, they can dodge it, but thats not a good dodge, and you could punish them for it. Its used almost exclusively for gapclosing, since steal is used when engaging and happens to have a long cooldown. The blind is nice, but the least relevant part of the entire thing.

    A dodge who prevent 4-5k damage, 5 sec blind and a thief in your kitten damaging you is IMO a good dodge.

    2-3k. Not 4-5k. Again, dont talk about classes you dont know about. Blind duration doesnt matter, it gets cleared immediately. Its a really bad dodge.

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.
    I haven't enough condi clear to clear blind during a burst.

    Attacks clear blind. You know that, right? As for the "proof" see above. Its still worthless.

    Already answered in the vid analysis.

    Ho sorry, I miss that's I'm supposed to be dishonnest, thanks for remind me this by not knowing when to stop quoting.
    Then : Backstab hasn't hudge setup, with spamming heartseeker stealth stack, you have a higher burst windows than some class with might/weakness/modifier with lesser duration. + it's always the same combo, you don't have to rely on proc to value them. Not even talking about requiring field rotation for certain class while other just had to throw attacks and it work.

    Backstab doesnt have a huge setup, but it does have a huge downside. You can use it when engaging, and then youre basically locked out of it for the entire fight, or at best get a frontal backstab which does a lot less damage. The burst window is much lower. The rest of what you say is nonsense, as usual.

    The rupt part when traited is what make it highly valuable. The burst window is the time you are in stealth waiting to time your burst while other rely on vuln application or modifier proc for example.

    Backstab doesnt interrupt, it has a single boonrip. Also, youre not gonna be waiting in stealth, because you wont go into stealth mid-combat, other than when using blinding powder as a stunbreak.

    Steal has. You have enough stealth duration to time well the opening.

    You dont use stealth mid-combat. You use it once youve disengaged from combat, or to engage. In either case, the duration is meaningless. And sure, steal has an interrupt, but then Im not sure what youre trying to say anymore.

    I just say that thief hasn't any problem to go in and out combat which is the basics of hit&run.

    A good thief nowing I play rupt will not play D/P with plethora of rupt windows, that's all. It's wall adaptation, but for this you should understand that there are builds out of S metabattle tiers that will work better in some situations.

    A good thief is a +1 class. They do not care if you use interrupts, they only fight you in a 2v1, and at that point youre dead meat. And they will not kitten themselves by playing the worst weaponset thief has access to, just to beat one already not viable class. There is no situation in the game where D/D works better. Its an unviable playstyle. And by admitting that you see it a lot, you tanked your credibility and your entire argument.

    A thief coming +1 with his main setup ruptable against a dedicated rupt build couldn't do anything and forced to go away. Will screen next time I see top thief on DD because you only work with proves.

    Yeah, because in a 1v2 where the thief opens with a backstab you will totally have the time to interrupt him without dying. For that matter, why do you think DD fares better? If anything, it has the more interruptible skills.

    You will never figure it as long as you never meet this in game

    Ive played lots of almost all classes. What youre describing is a fantasy scenario. in reality, interrupts wont save you there, and D/D is one of the by far worst builds in the entire game. Its certainly the worst thief build in the game. It also doesnt do any better against interrupts.

    I should present you drazeh or fly or other top thief I miss the name who have fun with it.

    Yep one yesterday : https://ibb.co/0n9rMgm
    I'm pretty sure this game was streamed by someone, will look is I have time is not I will continue screenshot until you accept that you should not play paladin thief.

    You failed to provide context. And once again, we get the same suspicious damage discrepancy. Double strike does 0.3 damage, shadow shot 1.3125. Meaning shadow shot does about 4.4 times the damage. And yet, the shadow shot actually did 9 times the damage. And theyre both crits. This is normally impossible. Conclusion: 25 might vs 25 vuln situation which is obviously not applicable. So sorry, this again proves the opposite.

    It's the second screen, no problem I will screen more until you accept the truth. And no I haven't 25 might/vuln : I was fighting a ranger and I don't play might build who could be steal.
    It's crazy that even why prooves you can't accept it.

    Its the second highly suspicious screen. I cant accept what youre showing, because its not the truth, its a lie. Whatever these screenshots are, proof they are not. As I explained. The damage is higher than it can be. If double strike does 600, Shadow Shot can only do 3k. Its basic math. You should be capable of it.

    https://ibb.co/8YyCGDt
    2 more prooves. Look at the journal duration seeing there is no "25 might, 25 vuln" things.
    Maybe after 50 prooves you will start admiting you are wrong.

    Why do you repeat the same thing 3 time. But lets just make it clear. The amount of proof you have shown so far is 0. Every screenshot missing context, and every time damage doesnt add up ,showing that its might or vuln shenanigans, as always.

    3 screenshot showing damage, even one with 2 of the same attack in a row who nullify the vuln/might uptime hypothesis aren't proove. Let's just make it clearier : shadowshot it for average 4k on me. Don't carre anymore if you deny evidence. But it's not surprising you find damage low if you don't know how to damage.

    Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.
    You should be genius gamedesigner.

    Yes, if were talking about the fact that no one ever dies in a 1v1, kills that happened when they werent in a 1v1 dont count. Are you just trolling now? Also you, who doesnt even understand the fundamentals of game design shouldnt talk.

    You talk about the fundamentals of 5v5 conquest who is all about rotating so since launche there is outnumbered situations ?
    No one dies in a 1v1 because thoses who 1v1 aren't the +1, neither the squishy.

    The fundamentals of 5v5 is that outnumbering helps but isnt required. That is no longer the case. No one dies in a 1v1 because damage as a whole is too low. Full stop. The ones who 1v1 are squishy. But squishy when damage is too low is the same as tanky.

    Lol just no, even if I do the hypothesis that 1v1 is a thing, as long as the 1v1 end, it's not anymore even number on the map.

    Thats a good thing. As a sidnoder, youre supposed to be able to win and make the map uneven. Youre supposed to have the ability to impact the game, to have agency. What youre arguing is that sidenoders should just be meaningless pawns who might as well be bots. How selfish can you be, that you want your enjoyment at the cost of others?

    Just back in the december mAt final, two sidenodes ele would dance and do neverend fight. That's sidenode yeah, it's not just +1 build taking a point.
    You literraly want the same as me, talking about enjoyment in regards to other, don't talk about selfish lol.

    Do a level 1 mesmer, go to PvP (or minimum level to go in.) use PU, show me how well you "stack" thoses boon please.

    Quite well. Also I still have my old power mesmer around, no need to make a new class. Unlike you, I dont talk about classes I dont know (Which at this point is pretty much just necro).

    Aaaand where is your high protection uptime ? I hope for you you get a "lucky strike" on RNG to highlight us how good it is for this.

    Why do you need high uptime? Any amount of protection is better than no protection. Especially when against the highest damage ones.

    When you are in steatlth, sure little protetion is better than nothing, but you highly prefer it while revealed.

    You still have the protection while revealed for a bit. Its also not the only source. Man youre not even good at this dishonesty thing.

    Already in the vid analysis. Look at the damage taken when 'in fight".

    I face holo everyday and I they catch me on no vertical things, I can't escape now the top player @UNOwen.7132 will say that's because I don't know how to use my 10 utility build.

    Without looking at your build, I can guess that youre probably screwing up hard, much like pre-patch where you were "always at 15% hp". But your bad play is not the benchmark. Between 2 equal players, the mesmer always escapes.

    Considering misha spend most games low life as well, I will put my badness apart.

    I wouldve thought that after I pointed out your lie here, you wouldve dropped it, but no, guess youre still lying. No, Misha spent the vast majority of his games at medium to high health, only dropping low when messing up or outnumbered. You spent them at low health, because you were always messing up.

    The only moment where he is full life is when running out of combat between points. But hey I miss that this was the "fun" prepatch gameplay running around point only fighting few sec each time.

    To repeat myself "I wouldve thought that after I pointed out your lie here, you wouldve dropped it, but no, guess youre still lying.". No, that too is a bad lie. You know what he was doing most of the time he was mid-full health? ACTIVELY FIGHTING. He was getting in scraps left and right, hitting them, getting hit by them. But he didnt go low-life. Do you know why? He is a good player. He knows how to avoid the big hitters, and minimise damage. But evidently, you didnt.

    Already in the vid above.

    Sorry I'm not facing bot when I play.
    Maybe I should do a F2P account to see your meta.

    Strawman. I just explained that they cant react. It works consistently on even the best player. You should know that, its your class. Evidently you dont know your own class.

    Good players moves, casts, rotates, they will not stay afking on point wainting to be burst.

    How many times do I have to repeat this until you get it? They are moving*. But moving doesnt save them. Because the burst cant be reacted to and is 100% consistent even on moving targets. Christ, how do you not know your own class?

    Watch non biased vids from anti-mes people. Mean we have the best prove we can ever get about this from someone who want nerf mesmers who play it to highlghit how op it was. Dunno why you keep denying efforts he does doing this.

    He did that. And the video shows that every time he went for the combo it went off without a hitch. Again, your uncanny ability to disprove yourself is almost admirable.

    Already in the vid, look at the number of fails from the best player because of what I explained.

    :D certainly, certainly, you can't even look at the prove you linked on this build haha.

    This sentence makes no sense. You can watch Misha do the bursts, he played the build. The "autoprocs" dont do jack.

    And how many bursts he launch that effectively hit ?

    All of them? Did you not watch the video?

    Yep and I see many fails.

    He messes up the combo itself, or doesnt go for it, but every time he goes for the combo, it succeeds. So no, you dont.

    Already in the vid above, hopefully he goes for the combo one time lol.

    Are you so biased that you think bountiful blades existed pre-patch or it's just a mistake ?
    You know before there was the stunt trait of this lockburst build who is now just a burst build with near inexistant chances to hit with the burst.

    Since when are we talking pre-patch here?

    Since you talk bout core PU burst being "meta" prepatch. And that there is no need to lock before bursting while having high clone production.

    It was viable pre-patch. Meta, not so much, it was on the lower end. The lock was not irrelevant, but it was also not neccessary. The burst works without it.

    The lock was ofc relevant. and the clone generation was bad. Nice we agree about this evidence.

    Relevant, not neccessary. Clone generation maybe, I didnt care much to check that.

    Currently there is ONE mesmer playing it on gold3/plat. he ins't on LB and it's even worse than before.
    Dunno which meta version did you talk about because there isn't a more meta version of power core.

    "meta version" is the best version of the build. But hey, you finally admitted that Mesmer has fewer viable builds now than before, and all builds it had got worse. Progress.

    Yeah so there is no a hypotethic meta version of this.
    Now I never consider this build meta, particulary since you can't secure your burst, the only things valuable in this build, and since they halves mobility.

    A meta version is just the best version. Every build has a meta version, its just not neccessarily that the build itself is meta. The build wasnt meta, since it lacked mobility, but it was viable, since it was a reliable and consistent high burst.

    Can't wait to see the "chrono" meta build in action :D .

    There was one in a MAT pre-patch actually. Won the whole thing, too. I think it was december EU? Check it out if you will.

    Sure, meta chrono in december :D .

    Nop, the outcome is : the thief has just to use his better stealth uptime, time 4 skills and it's over.
    A mesmer can't fight a spellbreaker on point because he can free FC on illusions. He can only kite around in this setup and a sniper can do better at this.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh boy, you really are a riot. Yeah thief is going to use stealth in-combat, and the mesmer wont just interrupt it or punish and kill him. Yeah its clear you dont know either class. Thief could never kill the mesmer. But the mesmer usually couldnt either. A deadlock. And a mesmer can fight a spellbreaker much better than any thief can.

    If the thief play S/D versus a rupt mesmer yeah, but it's a lack of knowledge issue. But you probably never go out of your "meta" to see the possibilities and adaptations some players does.

    S/D cant kill Mesmer either. No Thief can, damage isnt there. Mesmer will struggle to kill the thief, but its possible.

    Thief dictate mesmer meta during most of this game from core game to now but they can't kill mesmers, yeah yeah yeah.

    About SP encouter it's clearly build dependant, post patch during the condi thief hype, come say me mesmer kill a SP faster than a thief.

    Yeah you wouldve been able to kill much faster. Condi thief had a bit of an issue against burst cleanses and resistance. Warrior has burst cleanses, and resistance. Its sustained condi pressure warrior struggles against, but condi thief doesnt really provide that.

    Genius. Tell this to every war during few post-patch condi thief hype. Strangely since they nerf it there is more wars but it probably has nothing correlated.

    I play warrior, occasionally. Well, I did, its current state is too sad even for me. Condi thief was not the issue. Its one of the few condi builds that shake it off and brawlers recovery alone can handle completely. Condi rev and condi necro are worse, but the real issue warrior has is lack of damage and knockback. And as for the second part, there arent any more warriors, theyre just as rare now. Its not even a coencidental correlation, its not a correlation at all.

    When I have one warrior every 3 games, there is more but I mess I play only out of meta games thanks to parallel world which let me stay plat2.

    Yeah 0% chances to fail, it's really strange we don't see this 100% chance of hit burst build on every mesmers.
    Ho wait ....

    Which part of "damage is too low so there is no point playing a burst build" is too difficult for you to understand? Or how about "mobility is king for +1s, so Mesmer suffers there"? Are you just too stupid.

    It's not about the damage it's about the fact that a monoburst build is less efficient than a multiburst build. Should the multi burst have slighy less output.

    Its about the damage. There is no such thign as a "multiburst build". Youre just saying nonsense while trying to defend your increasingly obviously ridiculous statements.

    6k ins't peanuts, so yeah there is multi pressure builds.

    For a burst build, it is. And thats what you were showing, a burst build. For a sustained damage build its probably one of their spikier skills, but then they dont burst.

    And when it's easy to evade a monoburts build, many 6k do the job, thanks.

    I can list 3 to 4 SB, 1 mesmer on NA while playing in EU and I don't follow weaver so I dunno about them.
    Who are thoses famous many mesmers streamers ?

    Are you talking about right now? Yeah no one plays Mesmer right now, the patch killed diversity. Did you forget?

    Nop I'm talking before the patch. Which mesmers streamed ?

    Iunno, I didnt care to catch their name. I just saw them on the page.

    Because they didn't extists, thanks we agreed one more time. Ho and if you talk about Jazz : it was occasional montages and he don't play actively in LB. BTW it's no more than 1 guy.

    Nope, they existed. But much like I can name like, 2 thief streamers (but Im sure there are more) and 1 Engineer streamer (ditto), I just didnt care to catch their name.

    So you can't link something that supposely existed, sure. Should be wait 4 next post to have a proove or will you stop stating random things ?

    Yeah, buff thief, give it more evade, reduce his CD and more stealth option, it's clearly the blacksheep of sustain in GW2.

    It is. Why do you think thief only has +1 builds and hasnt had a sidenoder or 1v1 build since 2015? Granted, thief probably shouldnt be able to, but thats why they arent able to.

    Because thief never had hit&run gameplay who allow them to have the MU against few encounter ... because mobility ins't sustain....

    Yeah thief is "hit and run". It hits someone in a +1, and runs otherwise. There is however no matchup where thief won the 1v1. And mobility indeed isnt sustain. If you can disengage and heal up, so do they.

    Nop thief hit and run until the guy die, you know from LoS. Depending on the spec is already managable to kill someone 1v1, go to few snipers stream, they have the MU against certain type of builds while S/D on other etc.

    Nice theory, except that doesnt work. Every time the thief goes in for a hit, he gets hit back harder. And every time he stays at range to regenerate, his enemy regenerates faster. And his effective health is much lower. So its not "hit and run until the guy dies", its "hit and run until the thief dies". It simply doesnt work. So you dont kill anyone in a 1v1. By design.

    Sigh, just say that explain the thief mafia who jump on everyone saying the die versus a thief.

    NO one will used boonrip on a thief considering it's more valuable on other spec.

    Implying boon rip is not something some classes just have pretty much baseline and throw out a lot. Yeah.

    Which again is not near to be a normal situation on a +1 class.

    It is actually a normal situation, lots of boonrips or corrupts just flying around.

    Who are thoses aoe not requiring target ? I know only 2.

    Mesmer has more vigor than thief, yeah give thief 30 sec vigor on steal so he can compete lol. You should stop eating dangerous thins, it's not anymore dreaming here. I'm worried about you health.

    More? No, not quite. However, Mesmer has more instances of vigor. So boonrip and boon corrupt is far less brutal. And man, you, as someone who always lives in a fantasy world, really shouldnt be talking.

    I don't consider 1.5 sec on shatter has a good instances of vigor, the only good instance is 8 sec every 25 sec on a skill you would use to blind or pressuring.
    The 3 sec on crit can't be even considered post-patch as they removed condition on crit.

    What is "critical infusion"? What is "False Oasis"? What is "Vigor on shatter". Mind you as I said, the total amount is lower, but its more instances. Thief has just the 1. Rip it, and he is screwed. Rip the infusion vigor, and mesmer has 3 more.

    I already list them apart oasis. List me the way to "rip" it.

    Spinal Shivers and Lesser spinal shivers. Mind Spike, every Necro corrupt, rending shade, bountiful theft. Oh and a bunch of Mesmer and Warrior things, but theyre not good right now.

    Which are target skills for most of them, not aoe random proc, which are unlikely to be used on a thief, thanks confirming I'm right.

    I'm not a unviable class, the is currently 3 mes top 100 and around 6 top 250. Which is better than last season. Thanks to worry about me thought.

    Mesmer is an unviable class. It was far better pre-patch. Try playing a viable class, and you see it doesnt matter.

    There is currently more mes in LB than preptach, so at last it seems it less "unviable" than before lol.

    That is categorically wrong. There were a few pre-patch. There appear to be almost none now. Additionally, there are now no Mesmers in MAT, when pre-patch they were a very common sight. They are far more unviable now. Pre-patch mesmer was good, now its unviable. Simple as that.

    ? this evening there is 4 top 100. Prepatch there were 2. The only difference is now there isn't in Mat. But again mAt and LB have different representations.

    They do not. And pre-patch there were a whole lot more than 2. Im not surprised that there are 4 now. Most good players left, so even underpowered classes get representation.

    It's always the same players in LB, this barely change for ages.

    Facerolling didn't mean spamming only evade, when you roll properly your head on you keyboard you go from left to right and vice versa, so you launch one CC every few damaging skills. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Ah, good old backtracking "oh they facerolled". "Ok they didnt really faceroll, they timed their skills and staggered them, but its still totally facerolly I promise !!1!!1!!". Next you just have to admit "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost".

    Even the worst faceroller will not launch all his CC first, then all his damage, then all his sustain. It's basics.¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Thats not facerolling. Come on, the last step is simple. Just say "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost". Its an easy thing to admit.

    Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing. Which has nothing to do with the kind of skills you keep spam.
    Dunno why you worsed the faceroll level even more than it was.

    Yes, thats what it means. What youre however saying is "Ok, but you do care about timing, but its totally still facerolling". As I said. Just say "ok you didnt faceroll, because if you did, you lost". Its the truth. And the thing with the truth is, its easy to admit.

    Not launching a cc isn't timing, timing is launching a cc at the right time, stop thinking people are badder than they already are.

    Mean if on my a condi mes I'm fighting a chaos mes, I will certainly no use F3 while he is on condi pressure you know, it's basics.

    Thats not what facerolling means. But good job admitting that you were wrong.

    Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing. Which has nothing to do with the kind of skills you keep spam.

    Wow, that is impressive cognitive dissonance. "Facerolling mean keep spamming skills with no care about timing.". "Oh but they didnt spam skills without timing, they actually timed them to not waste all of them". These 2 things contradict each other. Yeesh.

    Timing is launching a skill countering or interacting with opponent skills.

    Well, almost correct. Its also using the skill when you know it will have maximum effectiveness. But sure.

    Rollfacing is rotate his skills while not taking in account the timing when opponents use his skills.

    This is true. Its funny though, despite the fact that you know the correct definition, you get the presence of it the wrong away around. Right now, you do that. Pre-patch, you didnt do that. Because if you tried to, you would instantly lose.

    No pre-patch every one throw powercreep skills because it would alawys had value while now you can't.

    Which has nothing to do that spamming condi skills with no CC remain faceroll.

    Correct. But thats what we have right now. What we had pre-patch is the opposite.

    Because we already know that as long as you play condi and you know the mes is on this build you will just throw condi seeing him die, no spam CC on him isn't it ?

    Then the Mesmer just runs away and doesnt die. Its a +1 class, remember.

    So easy to do after going melee.

    Yes, it is quite easy.

    Not on the said build.

    It is. Against anything other than thief, and warrior on flat ground (but pvp hardly has flat ground).

    We talk about a build that has only blink as a reliable out of melee. So no it isn't.

    Not quite. You have blink, you have illusionary wave to create a distance, and you have clone stealth, which fixes the biggest issue stealth has for running away. Combine any number of these 3, and you get out ezpz.

    Tf is clone stealth ? Did you mean hide into clones ? really ?
    I have blink and that's all.

    Yep it's the problem, considering the burst haven't a 100% chances of hit (you can even look shadowpass vids if you want a anti-mesmer view he go into it trying to prove it was op.), and even if it hit, it hasn't 100% chances to 100-0 HP, the problem is more about going out of opponent preparing the next burst than landing the initial tickle.

    It had a near 100% chance of hitting. And for most classes, it instantly downed them. Those were not the issues with it. The fact that it lacked mobility is. +1 classes dont really need to have much damage, they just need to be fast. But as I said, you just dont know your own class.

    Look at shadowpass vids, it's a anti-mesmer view at the time this build was the most efficient, just figure out the "high" chance of hitting.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88768/eu-ranked-pvp-on-core-mantra-mesmer/p1
    Mean it's not even my "biased" opinion.

    Did you watch the video? Every time he went for the out of stealth burst combo, he got it. So yeah, its nearly guaranteed to hit. Man you really can only find videos that show the opposite of what you want to show.

    Dunno what video did you watch over all of theses but majority are about how the burst is unreliable and don't 100-0 people.

    Nope. The videos show the burst to be super-reliable and either 100-0, or get close to it, on most targets. What they also show is that the guy playing it isnt very good at the build, so he screws up the combo, but thats a different axis.

    Already answered in the vid above, look at the "super reliable" 100-0 burst.

    When you are under chill when a zerk reaper jump on you, you fear way more the non-damaging condition than the damaging one, same when a zerk war immobilize you, somes class slow/weakness you so you can't counter pressure etc.
    Clearing non damaging condition can't be considered as useless.

    They are in long drawn out fights. Youre a +1 class. You dont have long drawn out fights. In those, you only care about damaging conditions.

    Nop, if you are a +1 power class and weakness/high blind pop on you, you clearly don't care about it.

    Yup, you dont care. The blind clears after 1 attack, and weakness lowers your damage, but you dont need much. Especially since both of those only hit you after your initial burst, when youre just cleaning up. Again, not rocket science.

    Blind clear after 1 attack. Your first attack is GS2 if you are blind : no clone, no GS2 damage = -6k damage. It's not just a "don't care" things in this build who is all about the right position and the right timing.

    Mantra of Pain. Clears the blind, your burst hits. But again, you are missing the part where "both of those only hit you after your initial burst, when youre just cleaning up. Again, not rocket science.". At that point being blinded does jack kitten.

    Already in the final vid above.

    Weakness don't only lower your damage it nullify your crits mean you hit like a noddle. And ranger weakness is widely used.

    First of all, again, that hits after you burst. So it doesnt matter. Second, Ranger doesnt use weakness at all right now. Neither power zerk, nor the much less good power Soulbeast. Whoops?

    Even with a no up to date mettabattle I managed to find one https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Ranger_-_Core_Bunker

    Only because you backward on precision, don't be happy too fast.

    This sentence makes no sense. And no, its just because you are slowly realising you cant defend your own positions. Soon enough, youll accept you were wrong about everything all along.

    I'm not the one saying PU mesmer, which main sustain is basically around stealth is okish, while thief stealth is bad sustain.

    PU Mesmers survivability (not sustain) is not focused on stealth at all. Because stealth as survivability is awful. Its sustain is good because of evades, invulns and damage reduction. Which thief has less of all of those (or none, in the latter 2).

    ... Thief has less evade than PU mesmer ... New fun fact.

    Its not really new. Its been that way since S/D stopped being used. D/P thief has 1 0.75 seconds evade every 30 seconds. Mesmer has 1 1 second evade every 8 seconds. Its a pretty massive gap.

    Disabling shot isn't a evade ?
    Btw your "meta" build is hardcountered by my "no meta" build. Mean hide in shadow is free rupt invitation. Power S/D is more accurate in this case and it has way better mobility and evade.

    Protection during stealth isn''t out of stealth damage reduction.

    It persists even out of stealth.

    Already see in final december mAt.

    Invul with average 2 clone mean 50 sec CD 2 sec inul.

    3 seconds. You didnt forget how distortion works, did you?

    Nop, you and a clone. clone from GS2 will always be used to shatter, same purpose for sword clones (and sword clone is instakill btw.). which leave only phantasms to disto.

    Such a high survivability compared to thief.

    Yes. 1 1 second evade every 8 seconds, and 3 seconds of invulnerability every 50 seconds and multiple sources of protection and higher baseline EHP are much better than 1 0.75 second evade every 30 seconds and nothing else.

    That's why sind is farmed by mesmer everyday.

    And there isn't a trait in the metab build who reduce swipe duration.

    By 15%. But oh, whats this? Mesmer has the exact same trait? Well now.

    Glab you admit thief boon steal isn't worst than mesmer boon steal.

    Why would it be? Mesmer has like 1 boon steal skill, the rest just rip boons.

    Because we talk about vigor uptime.

    We dont. Thiefs vigor uptime is better. But if it gets ripped, thief is screwed. His vigor accessibility is considerably worse.

    NO, core power mesmer use mantra of pain. You even wrote it and the 10 utility build still doesn't exist after trying to make it a reality since 3 answers.

    They all use mantra of pain. Its part of the burst rotation. Stop lying about it being a "10 utility build" and accept the fact that you do not know your own class. That should make you think.

    No, rupt mesmers use mantra of distraction. Just watch Jazz vids.

    Were not talking about rupt mesmer, because the build was never focused on interrupts. It was focused on burst. And burst is what mantra of pain provides.

    ??? The only thing Jazz build is about is RUPT and timing them. Ask him, ask every player about this if you doubt, it's insane.

    I have no idea who Jazz is, nor do I care. Im not talking about his build.

    You have one of his vid in this forum on main page.

    PU build never focused on interrupts yep, dunno why you wrote it uses mantra of distraction.

    The videos you kept showing. The ones you thought helped your case but disprove it in actuality. He uses both mantras.

    Because it was a way before video and this troll build was never seen in mAt lasts matchs.
    Did misha uses both mantra ?

    They can't run mantra of pain AND mantra of distraction it's two different purpose on had 2 differents builds synergy.

    Funny that you say that after linking shadowpass who, guess what? Uses both. Whoops?

    Because the link on shadowpass is about how reliable the burst isn't. It's even more visible with the ultra stunt on MoD. It take place before pre-patch and wasn't played at all in mAt during at this time. Because playing 2 mantra wasn't the meta build we talk about looking at misha.

    Whether or not it was the meta build wasnt the question, just whether or not they can run it. Evidently they can. And the link shows that the burst is very reliable, so long as you dont screw up. But I guess thats a common pattern, isnt it? Everything you talk about the old meta having, is just a result of you screwing up repeatedly.

    So now you defend unviable builds, nice, I will play something meta next answer then.

    Illusiory wave ins't "intterupts" you don't interrupt keyskill with a 0.5 visible cast CC. Another lie, but come on it's probably your best post looking at this.

    Yes, you cant interrupt key skills like Glyph of revival, after all .5 seconds isnt enough to stop a checks notes 2 second cast time skill. Wait.

    You are always in the best situation at 450 range with blink up, when it happend yep, carefully saved your wave for this on a no cover target, nice paper theory.

    Dont need to be a best situation, its a pretty average one. Remember, this is pretty much whats happened in the MOTA multiple times. Mesmer can do it just as well.

    There is mesmer waving in the MOTA now ? Which other teleport is a 450 range ?

    Nope, but close range interrupts on glyphs are what happened. And Mesmer can do it just as well.

    Yeah thieves never win 1v1. It's all opponent fault to play worse build or don't be reactive enough.

    They indeed do not. Unless you include finishing off low health targets. This is like the first lesson a thief learns, "never fight 1v1". Again, dont talk about classes you havent got the faintest clue about.

    I should present you plat players who have fun duelling on their thieves. Like I have on my build.

    Given matchmaking, that happens when theyre against worse players (significantly worse). But against a player of similar skill level, thief does not win the 1v1, ever. Well, maybe condi mirage if it wasnt unplayable.

    I'm pretty sure we can found some misha vs sind sparring somewhere.

    "maybe condi mirage if it wasnt unplayable.".

    Love how you didn't take risks saying even the meta build was unplayable.

    Stay in yours then. And let people enjoy others.

    There is only one reality. Not "my" reality, the reality. What youre in is a fantasy world.

    Yep and how can you be sure that what you describe is ?

    Evidence, math, objective measures. All of which point to it.

    That's what I call subjective looking at them.

    This sentence doesnt make sense, but youre not big on objectivity. Reality is just an obstacle to you.

    Like it is to you, seems your world stopped on february while they continue slighting things.

    Already anwer up : Yeah and of course you totally avoid the number of kills because THERE WERE PERMA OUTNUMBERED WHEN THEY DIE SO THEY DON'T COUNT LOL.

    Because we are talking about 1v1s. Of course kills that happen when they arent in 1v1s dont count. Once again, are you just trolling? Or are you legitimately just too ignorant to understand something so simple?

    You barely 1v1ing, even pre-patch. Mean even if at the beginning, someone 1v1ing close and one of the two blow, the reste of the game isn't even number anymore.

    No you 1v1d a fair bit pre-patch. Rotations were important, but you couldnt rotate 24/7. And yes, if you 1v1 and one dies, that has a big impact. Thats good. Thats how the game is supposed to work.

    If one die currently it already has a big impact and rotating are always important. And more before pre-patch we already had tank build from time to time, with less hate you seems to have against someone building to survive.

    So much kitten to unpack. Lets start. "If one die currently it already has a big impact" sure, but thats not the point. The point is that that doesnt happen without outnumbering, which makes for bad games. "And more before pre-patch we already had tank build from time to time, with less hate you seems to have against someone building to survive." good lord, are you really that dense? Tank builds are fine. They still lose 1v1s eventually, and they have their own weakness, thats what makes them work. The problem is that right now every build is a tank build. Worse yet, they dont even die like old tank builds do, nor do they have any weaknesses.

    Real sidenoders build already never die without outnumbering even prepatch they would just run away in the worst case.

    Why is it so hard understanding that it's normal in 5v5 conquest to have outnumbered situations and that they count ?

    Why is it so hard for you to understand that they dont count for 1v1 situations. How can you not have the minimal capability for thought needed to understand that 1v1ing is supposed to end without outside interference otherwise 1v1 classes have no agency? Yes, outnumbered situations happen. Thats good. But they should be a benefit, not a requirement.

    Because 1v1 in PvP like GvG in WvW is not what lead to win, what appended pre-patch with good players 1v1 is one of them running away when loosing, they don't die either.

    Losing the fight or dying makes little difference. The point is that you lose a fight. And why are you bringing up GvG or WvW which are entirely different gamemodes? For that matter do you not know that roaming exists in WvW?

    Because you defend something you don't contribute to the game wining which is pretty similar.

    Powercreep is what make all game look the same, destroy class diversity and make game boring as hell.

    And thats why after the recent powerdip patch, all games look the same, class diversity was destroyed and the game is boring as all hell. While under the "powercreep" patch, class diversity was strong, the games all looked very different, and were very exciting. Yeah. As I said, powerdip is much worse. And were seeing that in realtime.

    I don't consider everyone attacking under streoïds with only colors effects who changes as a very exciting different setup.

    Yes but that was again still only your fantasy world. In the real world, we had great class diversity and build diversity. While now every sidenoder is a knockback class. That is indeed not very exciting.

    Not it wasn't great, same downward slope, same gameplay with only little changes during years. Some class pretty boring to play even with powercreep.

    "I wouldve thought that after I pointed out your lie here, you wouldve dropped it, but no, guess youre still lying.". It was great. The game was stagnant pre-patch. We werent getting a lot of new players, but neither were we losing them. It was a precarious equilbrium. Then the patch hits, and after the awfulness of the changes becomes clear, the population takes a nosedive. Unlike now where it is indeed the same gameplay across all classes and all patches, the gameplay pre-patch changed rapidly in just the span of a single month. Builds got swapped around multiple times, entire comps were created and then switched away from all in that one month. As opposed to now, where the meta hasnt changed in almost half a year.

    The game was boring prepatch.
    There were plethora of posts asking for balance and reducing powercreep.
    Even when you watch vids they didn't looked more entertaining than now.

    It funny how people tend to improve the past. At this rate I want to come back to vanilla WvW mesmer golden time.

    They dont. In this case, people just tried to worsen the present. Now, that we got a "fix" for the "problems" those people claimed there to be, we realised those "problems" never existed, and that the game was a lot better than those people claimed. The old meta wasnt perfect, but it was far better than this kitten.

    No game wasn't a lot better. And certainly not compared to now. Many gameplay where just horribly boring. Glab you played the few who were enjoyables.

    ... are you this underrate or you just don't know what are you talking about ?
    What in chrono give sustain ?
    The heal on wells ? clone generation from core signet + blind or reflect bypass this easily.
    The shield ? OH sword did the same with not the "phantasm who failed top op if the opponent evade" side effect.
    Precognition well ? invul on signet bypass them.
    Not even talking about shatter reset, boosted heal.
    How the kitten can core signet be less tankier than destroyed chrono pre-patch, just how ?

    You dont understand how important channeled blocks, AoE invades or healing are, got it. Stop talking about classes you dont know.

    Lol
    Give me the number please or just admit you smoke bad grass. Double F4 alone make signet mes way ahead chrono talking about sustain.

    Look them up yourself. Its not difficult.

    It's prettu difficult because I already explained why signet is more tanky.

    You didnt. You just threw out a bunch of words and then tried to handwave them. You compared heals to reflects (??????) ignoring that the class also had reflects. You ignore that 2 channeled blocks are a lot better than anything sword has (or the fact that signet mesmer doesnt use sword). You ignore the damage reductions. Or the reset button that is continuum shift, which even matches signets of illusion. You ignore every part of reality that goes against your fantasy.

    No no no, you can't compare a 7/7 traitline chrono to a 3/3 traitline signet. That's not how it work.
    Chaos and inpiration taken in both.
    Better clone uptime thanks to DE in signet build + blind or reflect + more pressure.
    heal on wells on chrono, you probably run precognition, ulti and heal wells (3* 2318 every ~45 sec.) versus heal on illusions from SoE + most HpS thanks to signet mastery.
    Shield vs sword block => 3 sec block every 35 sec versus 2.5 every 15 sec. In regards to blocking keyskill, sword is better. 5+ in practise it's more valuable to run pistol for the CC.)
    Better condiclear on signet thanks to condiclear on disto and traited SoM.
    105 sec continuum split versus double 4 sec disortion.
    3 sec distortion on signet.
    So no, your "chrono tank" is way under core signet.

    You know I can look at them as long as I want, it will not magically pop something who don't exist.

    Then you just need to see what is there, and stop averting your eyes.

    Answered, it don't exist.

    It's a 4 seconds burst, it's not 400% HP, we aren't talking about PoF start mirage but about pre-patch mirage.
    Mean if every mesmers whiners are persuaded that we are in the PoF launch state, that explain many things.

    It isnt, it is, we indeed arent. Youre just ignorant, as always.

    I give screenshots, show me a prepatch vid about a mesmer playing 400% HP "burst".

    You give screenshots that are suspicious and undoubtedly made in a 25 might vs 25 vuln situation (since they are literally otherwise impossible). Its not just not proof, its the opposite. Its falsified proof. Besides, again, you can look that up yourself.

    No problem I will continue screenshot, when every thief does the same damage you will maybe start admiting that damages aren't low.

    And you will continue to only keep the screenshots that happen with high might and/or high vuln, and ignore the many, many 2-3k shadow shots you take. And you will continue to think that your cherrypicking without showing the context is "proof". Sadly for you, you already made an error. You uploaded a video showing a thief hitting you for 2.5k with shadow shot. So much for "every thief does the same damage".

    Guy this thief hit me for 2.5 on my sidenoders build with protection, weakness autoproc. Hopefully It didn't 4k me.
    Now the 4-5k taken are on my +1 build.
    If you can't differenciate builds...

    Sorry I fail to see the dancing people last mAt, but ho it's because they were outnumbering or fighting, which is basically : playing the game.


    If they were fighting 1v1, they were wasting time. Its not "playing the game", its playing a checkout simulator. Dreadfully dull. The game has gone to hell.

    They don't waste time, is they don't fight, they lose the point.

    Nah, its a waste of time. They wont die, even if they dont fight. The most that can happen is that they get knocked back. Which is not exciting. There is a reason we saw the synchronised dancing, because there was no point in fighting. As there isnt now. The only reason you fight is 2-fold. One, knockbacks, two, to make +1ing for your team easier. If however your team will never +1, and the enemy has no knockback, there is no point in fighting. And even if those are the case, its still a waste of time. Incredibly dull.

    Show me how you don't die staying afk on point. I'm pretty curious.

    Who says they stay afk? Just use defenses and dont bother attacking. Its not fighting, but they still dont die.

    Nice backward we can agree then that they have to play.

    Thats specific teamcomps, but the thing is, those are rare, and theyre still visible on the leaderboard. But no, when it comes to class frequency, theyre nearly identical.

    Which mean that mAT frequency and LB frequency are differents, thanks.

    Nope. But good try.

    Different setup, different frequencies, it's obvious that there is build who only perform wil 5 coordinated guys while other work with only 2 guys.

    Except you will find those builds still get played at the same rate on the leaderboard. The frequencies are the same.

    No like said, mesmer are the best example pre and post patch.

    They arent. Pre-patch mesmer was as common on the leaderboard as it was in the MATs. Post-patch its as non-existent on the leaderboard as it is in MATs.

    No it was common on the mAt, not in LB. (and the last mAt before rework they already begin to disappear.).
    Currently there is more than before.

    I don't need knoback to pressure enough dps class to go out of point hopefully.

    "hopefully". Sorry to dash your hopes. You do. As I said, its literally the meta. Its the only thing that matters on a micro level. Otherwise you just wait to be outnumbered.

    Nop I don't, if a zerk ranger or holo just stay on point while I'm pewpewting them they will die as I'm free to optimal pressure.

    If youre alone, they will not. You keep attacking them. Trying desperately to kill them. But every time their health dips below 50%, it immediately shoots back up. Yet you keep trying, hoping in vain that this time will be different. But it isnt. Yet you keep trying. You cant even remember how much time has passed, but it feels like an eternity. Your fingers are getting tired from pressing every button off cooldown. Youre just hoping, desperately for them to somehow die. But they dont. You are trapped. An endless loop for all eternity.

    You think a zerk ranger getting hit 60% by opening with his heal rupt on a 15 sec CD will stay on point laughting at me ?

    He isnt going to get hit for 60%. Or anywhere close. He has passive regen. And he uses his healskill under stability. But I can tell why you think otherwise. Youve never fought a zerk ranger, have you?

    Rip stab thanks to shatter & AT, rupt heal => enjoy your ranger going out of point. I fight plat2 ranger everyday.

    Ok that little detour aside, you wont. Your damage is far below what is neccessary to kill them.

    Don't worry, I'm laughting too.
    What append if powercreep give people low CD so that they can endless spam ?

    Interesting hypothesis. Sadly for you, its once again just your fantasy world. Such a thing never existed. And if youre laughing about your own stupidity, well at least youre a good sport.

    Nop, it was real that's also why they increase many CD post patch and gut most quickness uptime.

    It wasnt. The reason they increased CD was under the false assumption that it makes the game "more tactical". It didnt. Quickness uptime was reduced because quickness was too powerful when well-timed and used with well-timed skills. When used with spamming it was useless, but only really bad players spammed.

    Sure you neo now, you see the matrix behind the dev and prep-pacth whines post about rollface and quickness issues.

    Pretty sure they openly explained thats why quickness was getting nerfed. And as we have already established, facerolling was the worst way you could play pre-patch, and instantly lost you the game. But since I tire of you denying reality, let me make it clear to you. If you deny this fact once more, you are no different from a flat earther. So, do you think the earth is flat?

    The only one who live in deny is you mean if you can't see how carried the game was prepatch, the more time passn the more people get casual it seems.

    Thanks Mr the new famous scientist for this fact, "the higher the damage, the better it is" haha.

    Its a piece of old game design knowledge. There is a cap, of course, but yeah, its a fact. A fact youre too ignorant to understand.

    It's only a opium things : "wow I feel so strong seeing high numbers on my screen".

    Hahahahahahahaha. Oh god, you really are this clueless, huh? No, that little thing is only why you see MMO damage be 4 and 5 digits, instead of 2 and 3 digits. But, the fact that high damage makes for more skilled metas is an objective fact regardless of framing. A low damage meta where skills hit for 4k is a lot less skillful than a high damage meta where skills hit for 300.

    Haa here we go finally we agree that a damage meta where skills hit for 4k is a lot less skillful than a meta where skills hit for 300. <3

    You are indeed this clueless. The first is a low skill meta, but the damage numbers are higher. This is GW2. The latter is a high skill meta, but the skills hit for less. This is Samurai Shodown. A low-damage meta like GW2 is far less skillful than a high damage meta like Samurai Shodown, despite the fact that the damage numbers are lower on shodown. But the thing is, health is also a lot lower in shodown. Its the ratio thats important.

    GW2 is a fighting game like samurai shodown. It's a mmorpg, again you are not supposed to kill someone by dropping 20% of your skills.

    Again this kind of game is not thetype of game where a fight should end with 2 skills only timing at the right time.

    And they didnt. However it is the type of game where a fight should end in a 1v1. And they dont. Its a game where you should be able to punish people for their mistakes. You cant right now. Its a game where facerolling should be the worst way to play. Its the best way right now.

    There was even prepatch sidenoders and guess what a sidenoder vs sidenord encounter didn't finish as well.

    But this is getting long and tiresome, so lets wrap it up. This new meta is objectively far less skilled. The objectively correct way to play now is to spam mindlessly off cooldown without ever timing it. If you did so pre-patch, it was objectively the worst way to play and instantly lost you the game. The new meta leads to sidenoders having no agency, and to insanely boring matches. And players noticed. Thats why the playerbase took a major hit. The only solution is to revert most of the patch. Or you let the game die. So have fun with your no-skill meta that kills the game.

    Subjectively certainly, now you can let people play (or not play) and wait for next balance.

    Nope, objectively- The only subjective part is you having fun with the no-skill meta, the rest is objective. And no, Id rather not let the game die just because bad players like you prefer no-skill metas where timing doesnt exist, you spam everything off cooldown and rotations are all that matters. The next balance, unless it ups damage across the board, will not save the game.

    Sorry to bother you but again you aren't the "objectivity". What you do is only giving your opinion which is the definition of subjectivity.

    I never said I am the objectivity. The evidence is the objectivity. Im just a messenger. And no, I say plenty of facts here.
    But since this is getting long and annoying, lets wrap this up. The current meta is far less skilled than the old meta. You simply prefer no-skill metas. I prefer high-skill metas. So lets agree to disagree on whether or not the no-skill meta you prefer is worse than the high-skill meta I prefer, yes?

    Then you aren't the evidence. Don't talk about skill until you show you rank and mAt participation please.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    before feb 25th game balance is more fun

    @viquing.8254 said:
    There was even prepatch sidenoders and guess what a sidenoder vs sidenord encounter didn't finish as well.

    This is the only thing I will reply to. Because its hilarious in how wrong it is. No, sidenoder vs sidenoder encounters finished. Either by one player dying, or having to run away. But again:

    "since this is getting long and annoying, lets wrap this up. The current meta is far less skilled than the old meta. You simply prefer no-skill metas. I prefer high-skill metas. So lets agree to disagree on whether or not the no-skill meta you prefer is worse than the high-skill meta I prefer, yes?". So then, you prefer the current no-skill meta. I prefer the old high-skill meta. So lets agree to disagree on whether high-skill or no-skill meta is better, yes?