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WvW Skirmish Tracks need a gold reward per Tier

Geoff Fey.1035Geoff Fey.1035 Member ✭✭
edited July 16, 2020 in WvW

Fractals (CM+T4+Recs) Dailies

Approx. 14-20g/day, assuming you sell everything you get and buy keys to open the chests. Fluctuates depending on drops.

With a decent PUG (everyone knowing the mechanics) you can complete this in about 1.5-2hrs, less with an organized or optimized group.

INCOME: 98g-140g per 7 days =~784g-1120g for 8 weeks, not including extra drops which can includes Ascended Gear, Exotics, extra gold, and relics for Mist Attunements over 8 weeks.

PvP League

87.xxg/Season completion. 27.5g/Repeatable Byzantium

Assuming 50/50 Win/Loss, you need approx. 144 games (34 wins, 110 loss) to complete season track (not including repeatable). Assuming the queue is fast, and assuming every single game plays to the end of its timer, you're looking appox. Most regular PvPers complete the PvP League within 2 weeks.

~15min/game * 144 games = 2160 min = 36 hrs / 2 weeks = 2.63 hrs/day (about 335 pips per week)

In addition, PvP Reward Tracks need 20,000 points per completion.

350/loss * 110 Losses + 700/win * 34 Wins = ~62300/2 weeks = 31,150/20,000 = ~1.5 Reward Tracks/week.

INCOME: First 2 Weeks: 87g + Last 6 Weeks: 1.83 * 87 * 6 = 1042.26g not including 12 PvP Reward Tracks of additional loot, 3 Grandmaster Shards, 6 Warlord Exotic Boxes & misc. over 8 weeks.

WvW Skirmish

195 WvW Reward Track Points/5 min & Lowest WvW Rank & Warscore = 3 Skirmish pips/5 min

1450 Pips required to complete Weekly Skirmish / 3 pips = ~484 "ticks" * 5 min/tick = 2,416.67 min = 40.3 hours / 7 days = 5.75 hrs/day ABSOLUTE MINIMUM

20,000 WvW Points required for track completion. At 484 ticks * 195 points/tick = 94,380 points over the 1 week = 4.7 WvW Reward Tracks/Week.

Memories of Battle

104/Skirmish Track * 8 Weeks = 832 * 0.1196g = 99.5g

37.6 WvW Reward Tracks * 15/Reward Track = 564 * 0.1196g = 67.45g

INCOME: No gold provided for Skirmish. Only Memories of Battle which works out to 166.95g over 8 week period.

Over 8 Week Period: 8 * 365 Skirmish Tickets = 2920 Tickets, 26 Grandmaster Shards = 2.6 Grandmaster Marks and 37.6 WvW Reward Tracks

BREAKDOWN

PvE: 84-112 hrs = 784-1120g over 8 weeks plus drops.

PvP: 147 hrs = 1042.26g over 8 weeks plus 12 PvP Reward Tracks

WvW: 322 hrs = _166.95g _over 8 weeks plus 37.6 WvW Reward Tracks (assuming selling all Memories of Battle)

HOURLY COMPARISON OVER 8 WEEK PERIOD

Assuming we disregard the PvE drops, and each reward track is worth 15g (10g for the x2 Mystic Clovers, 5g for all trash drops):

PvE: 784g-1120g / (8wk * 7 Day * 1.5-2 hrs) =

~7g-13g/hr - Limited by Daily Cap, Limited by Skill

**PvP **= (1042.26g / 147 hrs) + (12 PvP Reward Tracks * 15g split down to hourly earning) =

~8.2g/hr - Limited by Skill/Queue Times, Increased by Skill/Wins

WvW = (37.6 WvW Reward Tracks * 15g = 564g ) + Memories of Battle 166.95g / 322 hrs =

~2.27g/hr - Can only be raised via Boosters for WvW Reward Track Gain.

Secondary Loss in that you don't get to keep the Memories of Battle, whereas PvE Fractals you keep Relics and PvP League you keep all Shards of Glory.

SUMMARY:

At the moment, 30% of the income value from WvW comes solely from Trading Post Prices of Memories of Battle, whereas income for PvE/PvP does not react to market changes.

In addition, WvW is a massive time investment compared to PvP/PvE, even if we are including the time it takes to get to PvP Rank 20 or all of the gear/training required for CM+T4+Recs in PvE.

WvW Skirmish Tracks need a gold reward per Tier

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Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You're ignoring all of the gold you make from actually playing WvW as well. It's not as much as you can make in PvE but that doesn't mean it can simply be ignored either.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You're ignoring all of the gold you make from actually playing WvW as well. It's not as much as you can make in PvE but that doesn't mean it can simply be ignored either.

    That would be relevant if the differences were not astronomical. Now the differences are so large so it doesn't matter. I think that you missed a fairly important part of the the OP's conclusions as well. The main gold income from WvW only has the value that it has because the mode is bleeding players. When Memories and Glory came out they were likely adjusted for similar pricing. Then they were left to rot and the difference is now 10x.

    If the scarcity of sufficiently-playing WvW players did not keep Memories stupidly high the gold-income would be drastically lower. Much lower than any addition that you or Nemesis mention. That income is also double-edged since that gold income is also a gold cost for WvW items, including things like stat-resets which luckily can be done on your WvW gear with sPvP resources, but that circumvention of the system also just speaks more about the neglect and the vast differences in income per mode. WvW players heads into sPvP to buy the sPvPers tokens for resets because their own resets based on the same mechanics costs them 30g rather than 1g.

    If I come off as ticked about this it because I am really pissed off about this stuff, it is so irrresponsible by the developer to treat their ingame communities so wildly different and it only leads to mode-mode conflict among players. ArenaNet's neglect on these issues makes me dislike PvE players and I don't want to dislike them. The developer is just driving such a big wedge between the communities that they have no understanding or empathy for each others' issues.

    Then again, perhaps a dose of divide et impera is a good fit in the appearant lose-slowly strategy employed.

    As I said, all sources of gold should not be ignored if you're doing a comparison. How one uses their gold earned is not a part of the discussion.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    As I said, all sources of gold should not be ignored if you're doing a comparison. How one uses their gold earned is not a part of the discussion.

    And as I said, though you clearly did not understand it was that if we're talking about income diferences by order of magnitude whatever additional scraps can be salvaged from the gutter doesn't make a difference in the comparison made. Especially not if they are smaller than the unadjusted inflation of the mode's specific currency.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    As I said, all sources of gold should not be ignored if you're doing a comparison. How one uses their gold earned is not a part of the discussion.

    And as I said, though you clearly did not understand it was that if we're talking about income diferences by order of magnitude whatever additional scraps can be salvaged from the gutter doesn't make a difference in the comparison made. Especially not if they are smaller than the unadjusted inflation of the mode's specific currency.

    The magnitude is greater because other sources are left out... Do you seriously not get that?

    The OP is also seriously overstating how much time it would take a player on average to complete the skirmish track for the week. They're take the absolutely worst case scenario for how long it could take someone NEW to WvW to complete a skirmish track and then comparing that to someone that's established in fractals and how long they would take on average. It's seriously biased.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    As I said, all sources of gold should not be ignored if you're doing a comparison. How one uses their gold earned is not a part of the discussion.

    And as I said, though you clearly did not understand it was that if we're talking about income diferences by order of magnitude whatever additional scraps can be salvaged from the gutter doesn't make a difference in the comparison made. Especially not if they are smaller than the unadjusted inflation of the mode's specific currency.

    The magnitude is greater because other sources are left out... Do you seriously not get that?

    The OP is also seriously overstating how much time it would take a player on average to complete the skirmish track for the week.

    It doesn't matter if the difference is 8x, 10x or 30x when anything over 2x is completely unacceptable.

    Anyone who is trying to gear themselves for WvW in WvW is doing themselves a major disservice. That can not be said for any other mode.

    Subjective.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    As I said, all sources of gold should not be ignored if you're doing a comparison. How one uses their gold earned is not a part of the discussion.

    And as I said, though you clearly did not understand it was that if we're talking about income diferences by order of magnitude whatever additional scraps can be salvaged from the gutter doesn't make a difference in the comparison made. Especially not if they are smaller than the unadjusted inflation of the mode's specific currency.

    The magnitude is greater because other sources are left out... Do you seriously not get that?

    The OP is also seriously overstating how much time it would take a player on average to complete the skirmish track for the week.

    It doesn't matter if the difference is 8x, 10x or 30x when anything over 2x is completely unacceptable.

    Anyone who is trying to gear themselves for WvW in WvW is doing themselves a major disservice. That can not be said for any other mode.

    Subjective.

    Did you gear yourself through WvW? No? Perhaps you should give that word another thought.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    As I said, all sources of gold should not be ignored if you're doing a comparison. How one uses their gold earned is not a part of the discussion.

    And as I said, though you clearly did not understand it was that if we're talking about income diferences by order of magnitude whatever additional scraps can be salvaged from the gutter doesn't make a difference in the comparison made. Especially not if they are smaller than the unadjusted inflation of the mode's specific currency.

    The magnitude is greater because other sources are left out... Do you seriously not get that?

    The OP is also seriously overstating how much time it would take a player on average to complete the skirmish track for the week.

    It doesn't matter if the difference is 8x, 10x or 30x when anything over 2x is completely unacceptable.

    Anyone who is trying to gear themselves for WvW in WvW is doing themselves a major disservice. That can not be said for any other mode.

    Subjective.

    Did you gear yourself through WvW? No? Perhaps you should give that word another thought.

    Did fractal players gear themselves exclusively through fractals?

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    Yeah you miss alot of income but WvW still won't touch. Just a few- skirmish chests can chose unidentified dye. Badges can be traded for cata blueprints. Champ/loot bags. 33s per wvw level. Boosts speed it up. Faster pips if higher rank. Nodes you hit. More if glyph of bounty on sickle. T4 fracs also req alot of skill compared to WvW so I'd just remove that one. You rigged it too with 3 pips per tick as if every1 is a newbie and his server always in last and never gets outnumbered buff

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    As I said, all sources of gold should not be ignored if you're doing a comparison. How one uses their gold earned is not a part of the discussion.

    And as I said, though you clearly did not understand it was that if we're talking about income diferences by order of magnitude whatever additional scraps can be salvaged from the gutter doesn't make a difference in the comparison made. Especially not if they are smaller than the unadjusted inflation of the mode's specific currency.

    The magnitude is greater because other sources are left out... Do you seriously not get that?

    The OP is also seriously overstating how much time it would take a player on average to complete the skirmish track for the week.

    It doesn't matter if the difference is 8x, 10x or 30x when anything over 2x is completely unacceptable.

    Anyone who is trying to gear themselves for WvW in WvW is doing themselves a major disservice. That can not be said for any other mode.

    Subjective.

    Did you gear yourself through WvW? No? Perhaps you should give that word another thought.

    Did fractal players gear themselves exclusively through fractals?

    I was thinking about just letting your comment sit by itself as you are tripping over yourself just to argue for the sake of arguing.

    I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. You're applying double standards in your favor.

    However, that question was actually too good to pass up so let me indulge you and follow your train off the rails here for a second:

    Yes, I did that myself. I had a premade of friends (from WvW, who used fractals to blitz income for WvW, which is quite relevant for the larger topic at hand). They were blitzing L4's and initially carried me through it. They would let me die every fight where there was AR needed and res me as you got rewards anyway. So I never levelled up in fractals, I jumped up the levels only playing L4's, got borrowed the gold for the infusions and raised my AR through the drops, piece by piece.

    So you were able to go through T4 fractals without ascended gear and infusions? Oh, you had your friends carry you. How many players have friends who are willing to carry them daily like that? Your situation is not the norm and should not be applied as such.

    So even a PvE mode that has such a direct barrier of entry as a levelling system with a scaling AR requirement can actually be circumvented and blitzed rather easily. It did not take me many hours to get fully levelled and able to pay the loan back. I certainly did not feel compelled to hop into WvW to gear myself for Fractals. I did however use the income from Fractals to gear that account for WvW B) .

    You technically didn't gear yourself through fractals but as I stated above, your scenario is not the norm.

    What's disappointing is that an argument for increased gold in WvW could certainly be made but both you and the OP are doing yourselves a disservice with how you're going about your arguments.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    T4 fracs also req alot of skill compared to WvW

    Yes, that skill level clearly stopped a ragtag band of WvW'ers from blitzing the endgame L4's and doing the CM's. Lol. :3

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    How many players have friends /.../ Your situation is not the norm and should not be applied as such.
    You technically didn't gear yourself through fractals but as I stated above, your scenario is not the norm.

    What's disappointing is that an argument for increased gold in WvW could certainly be made but both you and the OP are doing yourselves a disservice with how you're going about your arguments.

    My argument is quite simple. They should raise marks by 10x so WvW players can collect an ascended item per week. That sounds very reasonable to me. My argument has little to do with me and more to do with how it isn't healthy for WvW to just be a sink to other modes faucets. It hurts the mode in several ways, which I have already pointed to (from attracting new players, to letting existing players feel invested in their accounts and the game). Hopefully people do have friends since that is kind of the point of playing MMO games. Most of the things that I speak up about here revolves around how some of the WvW systems (like the transfers, which the economy is apart of) are harmful towards how people play with friends, play socially and build social structures that helps the mode and ultimately helps the game.

    The OP's argument is simply that WvW makes far less money and that they could add a gold amount to reward tracks. That also sounds very reasonable to me. It isn't necessarily anything that is important (anywhere near as important as the marks, hence I bring them up again) or something that would change very much in the grand scheme of things. That is why I find the details of his post far less relevant than the spirit in which he (or she) made the post. Some extra gold in the reward tracks, rank up chests or weekly tiers is not how I would deal with the economy to be honest. However, its not like it would hurt or make tons of PvE players (even those skillful fractal players) leave their goodies to come farm WvW. :3

    Also, with all this talk about subjectivity, norms and staying on point with the arguments. Like I said, your question only let me follow your tangent and give you a funny example. What the fitting response would be to your question is that there is no norm of close-to fractal-only players while there certainly is a norm of close-to WvW-only players. WvW is a full game mode, Fractals are not. That is the stuff that you are missing because you can't see the forest because of all the trees. The initial post you made admitted that income was falling behind which is really everything that is relevant. You then added a reservation which was both irrelevant to the topic and irrelevant as an argument because packets and skirmish chests do not change the point you already conceded: If WvW still makes considerably less money, even if you factor in packets and dyes (or whatever else), then yes, they can simply be ignored.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    More gold make me more gooder at wvw. Definitely can't have enough of it and needs a buff. Maybe the veteran creature events could give bags of gold when killed?

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    Edit: As someone who plays all 3 modes, this actually just explains what I've always sort of left as an unsaid observation. I spend time playing PvP for a couple of weeks to get x or y and look at my bank. I'm 200g richer. I do fractals daily cuz I'm in the mood for a week and look and I'm like 200g and an ascended item or two richer. I play WvW for a week and I find my income basically flatlined cuz I'm not selling my memories of battle and reward track gold goes to food/utility items.

    This was also my experience, and I think it's honestly the best (if not the most mathematically rigorous) observation to make. For a time, I thought I actually wanted Conflux and ran WvW every chance I had to log into GW2. I think my gold level was pretty much flat - I gained slightly under 1 gold over the course of the week, also not selling memories and whatnot since I think I needed a goodly number for Conflux crafting.

    I finally came to senses, remembered that I absolutely loathe WvW with a passion, and hopped back into PvE. Made 10 gold just messing around, and not really thinking about it over the course of a few hours. Maybe I'll work up the tolerance again to give Conflux another shot, but I don't know if I can stomach it long enough to get the skirmish tickets I need to finish.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If Arenanet hasn't changed accountbound grandmaster mark shards to become grandmaster marks (also accountbound) I find it unlikely sellable rewards will be increased further.

    It is my number one suggested change to WvW rewards because grandmaster mark shards can't be crafted and they take up space for an entire month assuming you pass gold skirmish rewards every week. There really isn't any reason why there couldn't be enough marks to buy a piece of armor using tickets + grandmaster marks from that week. You can get enough gold to craft ascended in less than two hours of PvE.

    Also as someone who plays all three modes as well, there's PvP players afking , throwing matches, or botting in offhours so technically speaking the gold per actual play hour there is probably going to be even higher for the subset of players that break the rules but somehow still manage to be ingame. There's also afkers in PvE (minion necros are a common sight) and WvW (they are typically auto kicked for inactivity and get nothing except skirmish rewards + tickets) but I don't think they compare with the reward structure of ranked reward chests on repeat. Personally I feel anyone with thousands of games in one season should be flagged automatically by the logging systems in place , as there isn't a participation system keeping it in check.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    At the very least I want a reason to care about repeating Diamond Chest.

    I recognize that many players don't complete it each week (I don't), but on those weeks where I'm done with Diamond by Monday, when I reach the two-hour window I have after work but before meal-time, I find myself debating between playing WvW or doing Fractals, and many a time when what I want to do is go into WvW, I end up selecting Fractals because if I can only pick one, why go into the mode that no longer offers anything meaningful as a reward?

    PvP players can repeat their Byz chest for decent amount of gold. What does a WvW player get from repeating diamond? 6 Skirmish Chests, 24 Memories of Battle, and 12 Mist-Warped Packets? That's a far cry from the 27.5 Gold a conquest players gets for repeating Byzantium.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    :O Mfw people defend WvW rewards.

    You could double everything and it would still be low.

    Add the fact that skirmish ticktes are worthless outside legendary gear.

    Maybe people don't know any better, as I still hear it being thrown around to run reward tracks for exotic gear. If you spent 48 hours of doing anything but WvW, you would have 2 sets of ascended. Honestly, WvW is just the cockroach of Gw2; despite their best attempts at killing it, it still survives for some reason. ;)

    Let'ss go over Skirmish Tickets:

    Ascended Earrings: Actually very good, considering stat selectable earrings are generally expensive everywhere unless you want to grind LS
    Amulets: Not too bad
    Rings: Rather overpriced despite the extra infusion slot, though to be fair there is no good choice for stat selectable rings outside LS

    Ascended Weapons: lol no. You have to pay 26g upfront of heroics PLUS the marks which are just as expensive to craft. There are no wvw legendaries so this is only for the skin. Only viable if you are too lazy to get 500 crafting

    Mark Recipes: Please don't even craft marks; only use the free ones

    Infusions: Somewhat decent, compared to the laurel vendor. Laurels are also time gated and have more use

    **Miscellaneous **

    Tactics: Hell no

    Siege Blueprints: Are you kidding me?

    Canned Food: This is about as bad as the legacy vendor selling blue siege for 12s

    Obsidian Shard: No

    Ascended Salvage tools: Actually more expensive than buying the things normally

    Trinkets and infusions are good, but yea I suppose it does nothing if you don't need to gear. They could fix the miscellaneous section and add more things to buy, and the marks system really needs to fix as it is bad across all game modes. Of course WvW related vendors haven't really been fixed for years; they're still selling blue siege blueprints for laurels...

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ascended trinkets are moot. You can do Bjora Marches and get the trinket for eternal ice at the vendor and convert to get diflourite and mistborn motes or other LS4 currency for second trinket.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Justine.6351 said:
    More gold make me more gooder at wvw. Definitely can't have enough of it and needs a buff. Maybe the veteran creature events could give bags of gold when killed?

    Ancient Boreal Spirit and Overgrown Grub say: "am I a joke to you?"

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Ascended trinkets are moot. You can do Bjora Marches and get the trinket for eternal ice at the vendor and convert to get diflourite and mistborn motes or other LS4 currency for second trinket.

    Yea, but I've done enough Living Story that the mere sight of it makes me want to hurl. I can only imagine it worse for those that don't like pve at all. I want to Bjora Marches once, and I swear it was like one the worst maps I've ever played in. Somewhere up there with the half completed maps like Southsun and Dry Top.

    LS3 was decent at parts, but LS4 and beyond... ugh.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    If you spent 48 hours of doing anything but WvW, you would have 2 sets of ascended.

    That sounds a little hyerbolic to me. 48 hours of gold farming in SW or Drizzlewood...sure, but to compare 48 hours of farming gold like you live in a certain people's republic vs. playing a particular game mode for the same length of time, for fun, isn't the same. If someone spent 48 hours doing map completion, pretty sure they wouldn't be wearing 2 full sets of ascendeded (though they still might have more gold than a WvW'er)

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    If you spent 48 hours of doing anything but WvW, you would have 2 sets of ascended.

    That sounds a little hyerbolic to me. 48 hours of gold farming in SW or Drizzlewood...sure, but to compare 48 hours of farming gold like you live in a certain people's republic vs. playing a particular game mode for the same length of time, for fun, isn't the same. If someone spent 48 hours doing map completion, pretty sure they wouldn't be wearing 2 full sets of ascendeded (though they still might have more gold than a WvW'er)

    Only slightly. I don't know anyone that would do 48 hours of map completion just because, personally.

    So maybe 1 set of ascended armor then for not actually farming. (300/48= 6.25g). That's almost possible in WvW. Regardless, my point was about 48 hours for an exotic set.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Give gold per chest in the skirmish track, scale it by the chest, with more gold in the final chest of each tier, something that adds up an extra 60g per week. Make the shards actual marks. Add Mystic Coins to the repeatable Diamond chest.

    That last change alone would guarantee a higher population of players in the game mode.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    WvW: 322 hrs = _166.95g _over 8 weeks plus 37.6 WvW Reward Tracks (assuming selling all Memories of Battle)

    What? No!

    166g is what I get in about 20 hours of playtime in WvW. Still less than in PvE, but not by such an extent like you say.

    The reward track chests grant a lot of T6 and ascended materials. And you get a ton of ascended gear just for playing.

    After 322 hours in WvW I have everything I need for a legendary. I have 6 of these and a legendary armor and the legendary backpack. Following your calculation I must have played WvW for more than 20.000 hours (no I did not! - nowhere near!).

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    More gold make me more gooder at wvw. Definitely can't have enough of it and needs a buff. Maybe the veteran creature events could give bags of gold when killed?

    Ancient Boreal Spirit and Overgrown Grub say: "am I a joke to you?"

    Yeah I wanna do the tree champ but nobody ever does it. Maybe if they increase it's rewards to 10g every kill it would be more popular? Could even add a krait champion boss on the other side since it's missing a champ. Go a step further and revamp the balance of veteran creature encounters. Make the dragons in desert borderland a real fight with big loot. It's all there, they just need to do it.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    I like how the fractal breakdown has "sell everything" for a roundabout amount, but doesn't do the same for the wvw breakdown, only selling memories of battle, which btw you can earn 25 in the gift of battle reward track rather than the 15 in the rest of them. Nevermind the heavy bags you earn from kills which can sell a stack of 250 for about 6g or open for t6 mats, nevermind all the crafting materials you can farm in objectives, nevermind all the materials including ectos you get from gear breakdowns, nevermind the random ascended materials from the warp packets, nevermind mystic coins. You even go so far as to include warlord armor for pvp rewards, but don't include the same for wvw rewards?

    How can you even compare for time value in wvw to pve as well when you can stand afk for 10 mins at a time, repair a wall to keep t6 participation, go back afk for another 10 mins, or sit afk botting a treb in smc, you can do this for hours and or even days. Meanwhile pve(other than some of the bot areas) and spvp requires you to be active for your rewards, hence why the time/reward ratio is much better than wvw. The wvw players who actually have sunk a lot of time in wvw and earned high wxp levels, were rewarded with higher pip ticks, thus acquiring skirmish rewards much faster.

    Hey I'm all for increasing rewards in wvw, I fought for increase in rewards and equal access to ascended gear for years before they brought in the skirmish tickets rewards, which was a huge step in allowing players to be able to gear strictly from wvw than pve. But if you want people, especially anet, to take your breakdown seriously, then be completely honest about the breakdowns in every area.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    I like how the fractal breakdown has "sell everything" for a roundabout amount, but doesn't do the same for the wvw breakdown, only selling memories of battle, which btw you can earn 25 in the gift of battle reward track rather than the 15 in the rest of them. Nevermind the heavy bags you earn from kills which can sell a stack of 250 for about 6g or open for t6 mats, nevermind all the crafting materials you can farm in objectives, nevermind all the materials including ectos you get from gear breakdowns, nevermind the random ascended materials from the warp packets, nevermind mystic coins. You even go so far as to include warlord armor for pvp rewards, but don't include the same for wvw rewards?

    How can you even compare for time value in wvw to pve as well when you can stand afk for 10 mins at a time, repair a wall to keep t6 participation, go back afk for another 10 mins, or sit afk botting a treb in smc, you can do this for hours and or even days. Meanwhile pve(other than some of the bot areas) and spvp requires you to be active for your rewards, hence why the time/reward ratio is much better than wvw. The wvw players who actually have sunk a lot of time in wvw and earned high wxp levels, were rewarded with higher pip ticks, thus acquiring skirmish rewards much faster.

    Hey I'm all for increasing rewards in wvw, I fought for increase in rewards and equal access to ascended gear for years before they brought in the skirmish tickets rewards, which was a huge step in allowing players to be able to gear strictly from wvw than pve. But if you want people, especially anet, to take your breakdown seriously, then be completely honest about the breakdowns in every area.

    The fractal estimate was insanely low. If we're comparing some high level super experienced WvWer. Doing so with the fractal goer as well giving them a mid level mist attunement can almost double that income. It also wasn't a 'sell everything' it was a 'open encryptions and sell the stuff' thing. Fractals should be giving someone around 40-50g from dailies + CMs if they sell absolutely everything.

    You could make the argument of AFKing being all that's necessary to earn the rewards, but WvW isn't filled with bots gold farming. That's PvP.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No wonder i won't get any gold. I don't even sell anything because you never know when anet get some awesome idea add some new material sink.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @God.2708 said:
    The fractal estimate was insanely low. If we're comparing some high level super experienced WvWer. Doing so with the fractal goer as well giving them a mid level mist attunement can almost double that income. It also wasn't a 'sell everything' it was a 'open encryptions and sell the stuff' thing. Fractals should be giving someone around 40-50g from dailies + CMs if they sell absolutely everything.

    You could make the argument of AFKing being all that's necessary to earn the rewards, but WvW isn't filled with bots gold farming. That's PvP.

    Regardless, op made an even more insanely low estimate on wvw gains.
    Be honest if you want the devs to take you seriously.

    Fractals (CM+T4+Recs) Dailies

    Approx. 14-20g/day, assuming you sell everything you get and buy keys to open the chests.

    That sounds like sell everything to me...

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I posted about this years ago but was told "WvW is too easy to afk in!" like that's a valid excuse for such pitiful rewards. WvW rewards need to be buffed by at least 50%.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    The fractal estimate was insanely low. If we're comparing some high level super experienced WvWer. Doing so with the fractal goer as well giving them a mid level mist attunement can almost double that income. It also wasn't a 'sell everything' it was a 'open encryptions and sell the stuff' thing. Fractals should be giving someone around 40-50g from dailies + CMs if they sell absolutely everything.

    You could make the argument of AFKing being all that's necessary to earn the rewards, but WvW isn't filled with bots gold farming. That's PvP.

    Regardless, op made an even more insanely low estimate on wvw gains.
    Be honest if you want the devs to take you seriously.

    Fractals (CM+T4+Recs) Dailies

    Approx. 14-20g/day, assuming you sell everything you get and buy keys to open the chests.

    That sounds like sell everything to me...

    Your attempt to play devils advocate by calling for some high bar does nothing to provide for the discussion. You do it. I provided anecdotal evidence that was confirmed by others experience that his calculations, though not accounting for everything, were basically true in spirit even if not in detail. You're just screeching 'NOT GOOD ENOUGH' into the ether.

  • I think making the loot more dependent on events, defending, attacking, kills, general participation etc would be better than the semi-passive reward track.

    For instance;

    • Adding a liquid gold reward per event completed, like PvE, but higher (due to less frequency) and an item like the Bag of Coins.

    • 100% chance of a Heavy Loot Bag from player kills. Yes, ppl can kill trade, but its still not going to be faster or more profitable than just farming Drizzlewood Coast, SW or Fractals.

    • Removing the Synthesizers and adding X Heavy Loot Bags (or some new bag that also awards the varietal seeds for ascended food) per skirmish tick. I feel like the Synthesizers are just a waste of time that could be put to better use. They feel like scrambling for scraps when you are starving. Can you imagine if they were in sPvP maps?

    • Add a decent gold value to the Emblem of the Conqueror and Emblem of the Avenger items received from those achievements. They can be then sold to the vendor and become their own reward track of sorts.

    But also, make a reward track that is obviously aimed at crafting a set of WvW legendary armor. Clovers, MoB, Skirmish Tickets, Cloth/Leather/Metal/Trophy Shipments, Trophy Bags (rare), Grandmaster Marks/Shards etc. Everything you need to craft the armor, divided by however many repeats you think is necessary. The fact that WvW legendary armor is time gated to take at least 3 months longer than PvE armor is utterly absurd.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:
    Your attempt to play devils advocate by calling for some high bar does nothing to provide for the discussion. You do it. I provided anecdotal evidence that was confirmed by others experience that his calculations, though not accounting for everything, were basically true in spirit even if not in detail. You're just screeching 'NOT GOOD ENOUGH' into the ether.

    Heh and all you've done is screech yeah I don't get enough gold as pve!
    Well no kidding, we've known this for 8 years! what else is new!

    I'm not going to do the work for you, I already pointed out everything else missed in the calculations. If someone wants to do a breakdown they should probably account for everything in their calculations.

    I'm simply saying, do an honest assessment if you want devs to take this seriously.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Your attempt to play devils advocate by calling for some high bar does nothing to provide for the discussion. You do it. I provided anecdotal evidence that was confirmed by others experience that his calculations, though not accounting for everything, were basically true in spirit even if not in detail. You're just screeching 'NOT GOOD ENOUGH' into the ether.

    Heh and all you've done is screech yeah I don't get enough gold as pve!
    Well no kidding, we've known this for 8 years! what else is new!

    I'm not going to do the work for you, I already pointed out everything else missed in the calculations. If someone wants to do a breakdown they should probably account for everything in their calculations.

    I'm simply saying, do an honest assessment if you want devs to take this seriously.

    I have seen no evidence that honest assessments have any impact on devs taking something seriously or not.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    /puts on sheep costume and holds up sign ===[We want more gold!]

    I guess this would have come across better.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I never understand why anyone that plays WvW would not ask that we could make more while playing it. All I can figure out is that they don't deploy siege and don't work on ascended armor, speciality foods. Back in the day you had to do other things to support you playing WvW. It's not as bad now, but barely. WvW is still an encouragement for players to pull out a CC to make gold to pay for WvW activities.

    To a suggestion above, if the concern is AFK, add new types of ways that players could earn rewards for activities:

    • A player kill bag bounty. Use a similar algorithm that is in place for WxP that results in the longer the player is alive and earning WxP the more their loot bag is worth. If kill trading is an issue then diminishing return would account for that.
    • Objective taker bounty. Add similar logic to taking of objectives that are defended. Object is worth x amount increased by defenders and then divided by number of attackers.
    • Alliance bounty. A system that rewards players the next day based on their activities from prior day.
    • Weekly Bounties. Acquired from vendors for a base amount, complete within the week and get x times returned based on tiers. Take x towers, x camps, kill x players, kill x player types and the such. Inspiration from this comes from quests that players might have seen in Warhammer Online or things like Destiny 2 Crucible quests.

    I know the forums don't like to draw PvXers in from other game modes because of rewards but no I think the rewards in WvW are subpar and still go out of game mode if I feel I need to make some coin. No one should get that feeling from their choice of game mode. I also think there is a difference in people that are crafting foods and siege and or buying it versus people that are using those that other deploy. But I can't side with the group that says we are making plenty now.

    +10 on boosting it.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC

  • Vova.2640Vova.2640 Member ✭✭✭

    I cannot understand why they dont add gold to pip chests like in pvp.
    You can even repeat the chest in pvp for 20 gold per repeat...
    You cant even make 20g from wvw if you the whole day, unless you get a 1-in-1,000,000 prec drop lmfao.

    And in wvw when we repeat the diamond chest..... we get 4 memories of battle, worth less than 40silver (-15% TP tax)
    2 loot bags that usually give <2 silver worth of materials...
    and skirmish chests which worth probably less than 50 silver.
    So all in all less than 1gold worth of mats for repeating diamond.. which takes... 330 pips.
    Assume you are a veteran and get like 10 pips per 5min, thats 33x5min = 165 minutes = almost 3 hours for less than 1 gold.

    And this is not even taking into account the rewards in between completing the mini tiers in the pip track, which give flat 1.5 gold in pvp, and less than 50 silver worth of random junk in wvw.

    How is this okay....

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I hope they actually do this. We will get bots camping Veteran spawns for participation and then we can farm Kill x Players there for free :)

    I rather choose death.

  • Giotto.2607Giotto.2607 Member ✭✭

    I agree with this, they need a better wvw reward system.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I never understand why anyone that plays WvW would not ask that we could make more while playing it.

    Because some people see beyond the question at hand, and look at what would come next. That doesn't mean people like me agree with it, but it helps me understand perhaps why ANET makes some of the decisions it does.

    In PvP and PvE, you have to be good to get max rewards. You need to win your fights and hold your nodes, or kill the fractal/raid boss.

    In WvW you get rewarded for being on the map. The only throttle to that is participation, and we've already covered that, ad nauseum, about how people can literally farm rewards in WvW while doing nothing of any importance....but ANET can't just adjust how participation is awarded because sometimes the strategic move IS to run dolayks, and sometimes roamers need to be able to smack a damaged wall to refresh their participation. So long as the bulk of the rewards in WvW (Skirmish and Reward tracks) are handed out for just being on the map, there is a limit to what ANET can dole out.

    Now many would suggest increasing the rewards given for activity, such as killing other players. And that will turn into guilds from different servers (or even the same people that are on multiple guilds on multiple servers) setting up farming time when they just kill each other for loots........kind of like what was done in EoTM.

    When you have to deal with the "human condition" you have to play to the lowest common denominator, and that's largely why we can't have nice things.

    I've completed Diamond already, and when I get home from work today and have 90 minutes to play, I can choose to go into WvW or into T4 Fractals. Both are things I enjoy, but one of them will put a nice chunk of gold in my wallet, while the other will just give me a handful of memories of battle.

    So I have no objection at all to ANET increasing the rewards - in fact I would love it if they did. But I understand why they are reluctant to do so.

  • Vova.2640Vova.2640 Member ✭✭✭

    realistically, the 2 best solutions are
    1. add gold to reward tracks like pvp.
    2. add 'valuable junk' that only drops from killing players. This 'valuable junk' can sell for 5 silver, 10 silver, 25 silver, 50 silver 1 gold or some super rare valuable junk that can be sold for like 10 gold to an NPC merchant. This would encourage more fighting in wvw as the net rewards of actually engaging in fights and killing enemies would be so much worth it.

    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.
    If any guild group hears about this being done they will just go there and kill the kill-trades just for the fun of it.
    Most people in wvw enjoy playing and winning.
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭

    Ever since they added Emblem of the Avenger I feel that their should be a vendor that will buy each of these for 10g each. What it would boil down to is every 10 kills = 1g. You would have to actively be playing to get these so it would settle the argument of having to participate on the map. I have 136 of these currently and already crafted the ring. Right now I am just sitting on these with hopes something good will come of it.

    To stay on topic more rewards are needed. People should feel rewarded to play this game mode.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.

    Really.

    Not going to list the original posters name (since they aren't part of this thread) but I'll just copy/paste what they said, as think it is a rather succinct description of the issue.

    While its true that many did use EotM, don't forget that a lot of players used the old Obsidian Sanctum farm, back in the day I seen several streamers on twitch farming in here, 3 zergs mass killing each other, these players where going up 20-30 levels an hour with boosters, some of which today are 7k+ this is why Anet should look into WXP again,

    And ...

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

    Please go on. I feel you can teach me so much....

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Vova.2640 said:
    And people who say "oh people will just coordinate and trade kills" you have no idea how wvw works.
    If any guild group hears about this being done they will just go there and kill the kill-trades just for the fun of it.
    Most people in wvw enjoy playing and winning.
    And those who will go to wvw to farm kills by trading will just get farmed by those who don't care and are just looking to kill stuff. Simple as that.

    You must be new as this has occurred multiple times in the past and most likely still happens.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @TheGrimm.5624 said:
    I never understand why anyone that plays WvW would not ask that we could make more while playing it.

    Because some people see beyond the question at hand, and look at what would come next. That doesn't mean people like me agree with it, but it helps me understand perhaps why ANET makes some of the decisions it does.

    In PvP and PvE, you have to be good to get max rewards. You need to win your fights and hold your nodes, or kill the fractal/raid boss.

    In WvW you get rewarded for being on the map. The only throttle to that is participation, and we've already covered that, ad nauseum, about how people can literally farm rewards in WvW while doing nothing of any importance....but ANET can't just adjust how participation is awarded because sometimes the strategic move IS to run dolayks, and sometimes roamers need to be able to smack a damaged wall to refresh their participation. So long as the bulk of the rewards in WvW (Skirmish and Reward tracks) are handed out for just being on the map, there is a limit to what ANET can dole out.

    Now many would suggest increasing the rewards given for activity, such as killing other players. And that will turn into guilds from different servers (or even the same people that are on multiple guilds on multiple servers) setting up farming time when they just kill each other for loots........kind of like what was done in EoTM.

    When you have to deal with the "human condition" you have to play to the lowest common denominator, and that's largely why we can't have nice things.

    I've completed Diamond already, and when I get home from work today and have 90 minutes to play, I can choose to go into WvW or into T4 Fractals. Both are things I enjoy, but one of them will put a nice chunk of gold in my wallet, while the other will just give me a handful of memories of battle.

    So I have no objection at all to ANET increasing the rewards - in fact I would love it if they did. But I understand why they are reluctant to do so.

    But you hit the root of the problem. I am ok with people thinking bigger picture, we could hope that people would do that before they offer a suggestion (they don't always but some do). But being a B2P game the forum tends to run as if its their job to figure out how to get around an issue or play the role of naysayer. Which can be helpful but at the end of the day it's up to the company that we all paid to do a task to resolve. The forums role is to say hey I think this is an issue, can we get your attention on this. I agree I wouldn't want more passive rewards but I wouldn't want ANet to walk away from the post where people just counter thinking everything is ok either. We want less people pulling out their CC to play WvW, and though I am sure its not a majority, it's more than it should be already. I don't mind ANet making development dollars from the store and support it that way, but they are rather finicky on this front in my book which does translate to less store support since it feels more forced.

    Good hunting!

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/Civ6/CU/AoC