Ranger Lightning Reflexes - Remove The Damage Proc — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Ranger Lightning Reflexes - Remove The Damage Proc

Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 11, 2020 in PVP

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Reflexes

Alright, @Eurantien.4632 has brought this up before but for some reason this topic always largely gets ignored. Lightning Reflexes having damage as part of the cast is an unnecessary mechanic and does nothing but to serve as some kind of drawback or punishment for using the utility.

  1. The damage will reveal you if you are stealthed.
  2. The damage will put you in combat and slow you down, whereas other similar evade skills would allow a character to jolt past something, take no damage deal no damage, and remain out of combat with full mobility.
  3. The damage will trigger abilities like Full Counter, Flashbang, Shocking Aura, when the purpose of the skill is to get away, not trigger every passive effect around you. This is the biggest problem with the damage on LR, now that Arenanet is trending on adding passive CC into the game. What happens with Flashbang or Shock Aura passive CC is that, when LR is used, the damage triggers the passive CC which stops the LR cast completely and puts it on full cool down. So the Ranger doesn't even move backwards or stun break. What happens is the Ranger pushes LR, gets CCd while standing in place, and then LR is on full cool down. These passive CCs completely neutralize the use of LR, as if it weren't even on the Ranger's utility bar.

The damage proc on Lightning Reflexes needs to be removed. If Arenanet doesn't want to fix all the passive CC, the damage on LR needs to be removed. And if Arenanet insists on keeping the damage on LR, at least make the damage worth it. For all of the drawbacks that the damage creates, that damage should be substantial.

~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

<1

Comments

  • Kachros.4751Kachros.4751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    Tbh i never really thought about this since the situation rarely happened to me but it is pretty dumb considering the damage is about 100, right now its not as bad since neither ranger or ele is meta right now and neither see much play compared to other classes but for when ranger is no longer gatekeeped (mainly core) this will be a more prominent issue and should be addressed before it becomes a larger issue, fullcounter isnt too much of an issue considering lightning reflexes is also a dodge but procing the CC of shocking aura with a stunbreak defeats the entire purpose of the skill and the damage has 0 impact anyways and so it is a pretty dumb mechanic.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭✭

    But then they'd have to rename the skill to just Reflexes.

  • Kachros.4751Kachros.4751 Member ✭✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    But then they'd have to rename the skill to just Reflexes.

    I thoughtt about that xd but "lightning" could be used as "fast" right? :D

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

  • Ario.8964Ario.8964 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    Engi runs into a similar problem with vent exhaust. Though, the solutions for the two skills are different (remove LR's dmg and move the vent dmg to the end of the dodge like every other dodge proc in game). Would also be nice to see anet do something about all the passive cc in the game (really just cc in general, it's out of control right now)

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    I didn't know it did damage in the first place. Seems pretty arbitrary

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

  • GewRoo.4172GewRoo.4172 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You mean 40 energy on Riposting Shadows.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why do you think all the hard ccs do like 10 damage post patch? The pvp team can't/won't change funcationality like this

    // Yanim

  • does anyone remember when air sigil procced aoe without damage on it (i.e. box of nails)? pepperidge farm remembers.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or just make it a daze and everyone will come here complaining how op ranger is.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    Flashbang doesn't CC you on hitting the engi, it CCs you on the engi hitting you and it's at 90% health or higher. You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill.

    Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you.

    Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.

  • Loboling.5293Loboling.5293 Member ✭✭✭

    What passive cc btw? Are you talking about the casted skill shocking aura? It only lasts a few seconds. But I barely play ranger, if you want to make the skill have no counter play, give it a 60 second cooldown. Enjoy it, but I think most ranger mains would prefer the skill factor and lower cooldown.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loboling.5293 said:
    What passive cc btw? Are you talking about the casted skill shocking aura? It only lasts a few seconds. But I barely play ranger, if you want to make the skill have no counter play, give it a 60 second cooldown. Enjoy it, but I think most ranger mains would prefer the skill factor and lower cooldown.

    I think rangers enjoy being impossible to CC too much to agree to it ;p

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Didn't they 'fix' it by adding the same skill on a elite like they always do https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Griffon_Stance .

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    I'm in agreement with this tbh.

    Understand what you're saying Trevor, but all I can see is the 24-30 second stunbreak paired with vigor and all thoughts of buffing it go out the window.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    I'm in agreement with this tbh.

    Understand what you're saying Trevor, but all I can see is the 24-30 second stunbreak paired with vigor and all thoughts of buffing it go out the window.

    Why not both?

    Get rid of the damage (or add 0.1s of stab to it if that's too hard to do :lol:) and then add 10-15s CD. Or give it the ele treatment, make it 60s, whatever.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill.

    You're still not understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty.

    Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger.

    Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you.

    That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes.

    Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.

    No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    lmao ive revealed myself so many times with this skill but im not a ranger main so thats probably why. I often press it without thinking about that tiny damage portion. If i was a ranger main i would probably be more careful about it though. What would really be funny is downing someone with that tiny zap of damage I cant say ive done that before.

    How about not removing the damage from lightning reflexes and just fixing the silly things like shocking aura and engi shock shield (mainly the shock shield)
    Ideally if you get stunned by shocking aura you should be able to use LR and get out before the aura is actually allowed to stun you again. But you might need good ping and really good reaction time.... waiting too long and you will be set up to trigger another stun.

    ONTHE OTHER HAND

    ENGI SHILED SHOCK is how ever even more busted than shocking aura as there is no delay at all between one stun to the next. You should get a necro warhorn press 5 next to an engi holding that block and see what happens. You basically get locked for the full duration of the block and that skill does not even deal direct strike damage. Skills that dont even proc full counter still proc the shock stun on engi shield and it triggers me to this day how they are allowed to have a block that's so powerful. They could just make the thing where it can only stun a target once over the duration of the whole block. You usually wouldn't try to roll out with lightning reflexes if you were not already stunned by it or something else anyways which would at least make the issue of triggering it with LR far less likely

    As others pointed out Full counter is not really an issue as you will just evade it best thing a warrior gets from that is a free reset on their other burst skill and nothing more.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill.

    You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty.

    Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger.

    Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you.

    That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes.

    Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.

    No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience.

    Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger.

    If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it.

    You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

  • Tanbin.2436Tanbin.2436 Member ✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill.

    You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty.

    Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger.

    Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you.

    That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes.

    Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.

    No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience.

    Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger.

    If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it.

    You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

    This forum thread isn't about those skills, it's about Lightning Reflexes. If you would like to make a thread involving those then feel free to do so.

    Also, riposting shadows , withdraw and RFI on meta d/p? s/d with RFI / withdraw sure but s/d isnt even the meta pick. Yea, you still have a point but again this thread isn't about those skills. This doesn't mean it isn't acknowledged.

    The crying "my skill does it too, what about mine so you shouldn't be able to change it and i shouldn't be left out too" never really solves anything and instead just makes you look like a baby in the middle of people trying to have an actual conversation on getting something productive done on either side of it getting changed or not changed.

    It really just negates any kind of productivity that could be accomplished and turns it into more of a personal thing rather than an objective goal. This happens a lot in the forums, people put their bias against a class that may or may not be op or may or may not have op abilities and try to break down a proposal based on personal grudges with the class. For the most part this is fine because conversation usually results in nothing anyway, because they don't balance around people in the PVP forums. They balance around casual performance and people in the PVE forums.

    Back to the actual topic, the reality is that LR is a meta pick no matter the build. You essentially need it, whether it's broken (broken != the only option, it happens to be really good but it also happens to be the only pick available for general build structure) or not negates the actual issue being presented in the thread but people get too blinded by something being busted they don't stop and entertain even the slightest open-mindedness regarding change.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    lmao ive revealed myself so many times with this skill but im not a ranger main so thats probably why. I often press it without thinking about that tiny damage portion. If i was a ranger main i would probably be more careful about it though. What would really be funny is downing someone with that tiny zap of damage I cant say ive done that before.

    How about not removing the damage from lightning reflexes and just fixing the silly things like shocking aura and engi shock shield (mainly the shock shield)
    Ideally if you get stunned by shocking aura you should be able to use LR and get out before the aura is actually allowed to stun you again. But you might need good ping and really good reaction time.... waiting too long and you will be set up to trigger another stun.

    ONTHE OTHER HAND

    ENGI SHILED SHOCK is how ever even more busted than shocking aura as there is no delay at all between one stun to the next. You should get a necro warhorn press 5 next to an engi holding that block and see what happens. You basically get locked for the full duration of the block and that skill does not even deal direct strike damage. Skills that dont even proc full counter still proc the shock stun on engi shield and it triggers me to this day how they are allowed to have a block that's so powerful. They could just make the thing where it can only stun a target once over the duration of the whole block. You usually wouldn't try to roll out with lightning reflexes if you were not already stunned by it or something else anyways which would at least make the issue of triggering it with LR far less likely

    As others pointed out Full counter is not really an issue as you will just evade it best thing a warrior gets from that is a free reset on their other burst skill and nothing more.

    shock aura has 2s icd, but as far as I can tell engi shield doesnt have ICD.

  • @Tanbin.2436 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill.

    You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty.

    Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger.

    Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you.

    That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes.

    Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.

    No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience.

    Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger.

    If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it.

    You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

    This forum thread isn't about those skills, it's about Lightning Reflexes. If you would like to make a thread involving those then feel free to do so.

    Also, riposting shadows , withdraw and RFI on meta d/p? s/d with RFI / withdraw sure but s/d isnt even the meta pick. Yea, you still have a point but again this thread isn't about those skills. This doesn't mean it isn't acknowledged.

    The crying "my skill does it too, what about mine so you shouldn't be able to change it and i shouldn't be left out too" never really solves anything and instead just makes you look like a baby in the middle of people trying to have an actual conversation on getting something productive done on either side of it getting changed or not changed.

    It really just negates any kind of productivity that could be accomplished and turns it into more of a personal thing rather than an objective goal. This happens a lot in the forums, people put their bias against a class that may or may not be op or may or may not have op abilities and try to break down a proposal based on personal grudges with the class. For the most part this is fine because conversation usually results in nothing anyway, because they don't balance around people in the PVP forums. They balance around casual performance and people in the PVE forums.

    Back to the actual topic, the reality is that LR is a meta pick no matter the build. You essentially need it, whether it's broken (broken != the only option, it happens to be really good but it also happens to be the only pick available for general build structure) or not negates the actual issue being presented in the thread but people get too blinded by something being busted they don't stop and entertain even the slightest open-mindedness regarding change.

    We use other skills with similar functions to determine if one is overperforming both in the design on its face and against other skills in the same category.

    This isn't a conversation about needed change or terrible function that's holding a skill back from being a meta pick or even used at all, it's the OP unable to deal with the intended drawbacks of LR and asking for it to be removed while completely ignoring the strengths of it. Again, LR is the superior version of all the skills that work the same way, both in function and cooldown, so nobody is going 'My skill does it too' to try to keep LR from being changed, we're saying other skills do it too when the OP tries to use those similar functions as a baseline for change when others function the same way with no hinderance. Again, if you use LR and it sends you off a cliff, it's your problem for poor positioning; same applies to RFI, RS, and Withdrawal. Nothing special about any of them, they're working as intended.

    There is no issue being presented. The skill is working as intended and the OP doesn't like the intended use. Either use another skill or get over it, the damage portion is there while others don't because it's on a much shorter CD and gives Vigor and cleanses when traited with added Fury on a 24 second CD. The balance here is that you have a small damaging attack tied to it. L2P or stop using it.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    @Tanbin.2436 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill.

    You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty.

    Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger.

    Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you.

    That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes.

    Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.

    No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience.

    Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger.

    If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it.

    You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

    This forum thread isn't about those skills, it's about Lightning Reflexes. If you would like to make a thread involving those then feel free to do so.

    Also, riposting shadows , withdraw and RFI on meta d/p? s/d with RFI / withdraw sure but s/d isnt even the meta pick. Yea, you still have a point but again this thread isn't about those skills.

    He doesn't have a point though. Those skills don't cause random damage resulting in being interrupted from passive CCs.

    He's just fishing for reasons to argue at this point.

    Kind of like if two people were discussing the parameters of a car engine, and then a third person kept interjecting and pointing out how the car was painted red, which has nothing to do with the car engine.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Tanbin.2436 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill.

    You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty.

    Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger.

    Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you.

    That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes.

    Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.

    No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience.

    Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger.

    If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it.

    You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

    This forum thread isn't about those skills, it's about Lightning Reflexes. If you would like to make a thread involving those then feel free to do so.

    Also, riposting shadows , withdraw and RFI on meta d/p? s/d with RFI / withdraw sure but s/d isnt even the meta pick. Yea, you still have a point but again this thread isn't about those skills. This doesn't mean it isn't acknowledged.

    The crying "my skill does it too, what about mine so you shouldn't be able to change it and i shouldn't be left out too" never really solves anything and instead just makes you look like a baby in the middle of people trying to have an actual conversation on getting something productive done on either side of it getting changed or not changed.

    It really just negates any kind of productivity that could be accomplished and turns it into more of a personal thing rather than an objective goal. This happens a lot in the forums, people put their bias against a class that may or may not be op or may or may not have op abilities and try to break down a proposal based on personal grudges with the class. For the most part this is fine because conversation usually results in nothing anyway, because they don't balance around people in the PVP forums. They balance around casual performance and people in the PVE forums.

    Back to the actual topic, the reality is that LR is a meta pick no matter the build. You essentially need it, whether it's broken (broken != the only option, it happens to be really good but it also happens to be the only pick available for general build structure) or not negates the actual issue being presented in the thread but people get too blinded by something being busted they don't stop and entertain even the slightest open-mindedness regarding change.

    We use other skills with similar functions to determine if one is overperforming both in the design on its face and against other skills in the same category.

    This isn't a conversation about needed change or terrible function that's holding a skill back from being a meta pick or even used at all, it's the OP unable to deal with the intended drawbacks of LR and asking for it to be removed while completely ignoring the strengths of it.

    Would appreciate it if you wouldn't put words into my mouth. I said nothing like that. Reread my OP post to see what I said, that this thread discussion was about.

    Thanks.

    Again, LR is the superior version of all the skills that work the same way, both in function and cooldown

    That is an opinion that is negligent vs. the discussion, which is about an unnecessary mechanic tied to a skill that serves no purpose other than to cancel its usage. No other skill like it has such a drawback. It is clearly an unintended mechanic.

    we're saying other skills do it too when the OP tries to use those similar functions as a baseline for change when others function the same way with no hinderance.

    But they don't function the same way because things like Roll For Initiative or Withdraw or ect ect, do not have random tiny damage attached to them which creates reveal and procs passive CCs. Get your mechanics straight before making arguments.

    Again, if you use LR and it sends you off a cliff, it's your problem for poor positioning; same applies to RFI, RS, and Withdrawal. Nothing special about any of them, they're working as intended.

    No one said anything about poorly aiming LR and going off a cliff. That is something you said. This thread is solely discussing the damage proc on LR and the issues that the damage proc creates. You should reread the OP post and try to help keep things on topic.

    There is no issue being presented.

    Reread the OP post to see the issue that is being presented. It is very finely outlined in the OP post. Lightning Reflexes is the only skill of its type to possess this problem.

    The skill is working as intended and the OP doesn't like the intended use.

    Are you sure about that? That's up to Arenanet to decide, not you. It could be working as intended and I've already stated this. Maybe they want it to have that drawback. But judging from how it is the only skill of its type of possess such a drawback on what is supposed to be a disengage skill, I would put my money on it being an unintended mechanic.

    But regardless, you need to relax a bit. Making discussion is a great but there really isn't a reason to take things into a place of misinformation.

    Either use another skill or get over it

    Nah, I'll continue to advocate that the damage proc is an unnecessary mechanic that needs to be removed, right along with all of the Ranger players who have already made the same statement, and all of the ones to come who will make the same statement as the years go on. tyvm.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    He doesn't have a point though. Those skills don't cause random damage resulting in being interrupted from passive CCs.

    He's just fishing for reasons to argue at this point.

    Kind of like if two people were discussing the parameters of a car engine, and then a third person kept interjecting and pointing out how the car was painted red, which has nothing to do with the car engine.

    He does have a point, which it seems you don't understand or ignore on purpose.
    One way or another, if you want that damage to be removed, as a price for such change I demand base 50s cd on it, that should be fine "balance" for such overloaded skill.
    LR gets interrupted additionally by like 2 skills/effects(Shocking Aura and Static Shield) compared to others with same "rollback" mechanic thingie... Like for real...

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Tanbin.2436 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    You're missing the point bud.

    We can discuss how unbelievably godlike and powerful Lightning Reflexes is, after the sloppy mechanic is fixed.

    To stress this point I mean like: Even if the skill were on a 10s or a 60s cd, it shouldn't get auto canceled by passive CC, regardless of its cd time or effects attached.

    The only hard CC I can think of that you get hit with by the damage portion of LR is Shocking Aura and Engi's shield stun. Full Counter will proc but not connect with you. Not exactly a game breaking issue.

    It gets auto CC'd by Shock Aura, Engi Shield Stun, and FLASHBANG. Considering that everyone and their brother runs an Engineer or Tempest nowadays, and that aura share puts Shock Aura on everyone in a team fight, yeah using Lightning Reflexes is a problem right now and it has been for quite some time. When you stack Flashbang on top of Engi Shield and stack it on top of Shock Aura share, yeah man it's a problem. But that's just discussing the issue with passive auto CCs. That's not even addressing the other things I had mentioned in my OP post.

    And the part about "Full Counter won't even hit you" is a naive thing to say. You probably don't have enough experience playing Ranger to understand that LR is not always used in a traditional manner where you go backwards 180 degrees from an opponent. Sometimes you have to use it while your back is against a wall or some other object, which means you get a short evade frame but don't go anywhere. Or if you LR and land near the Spellbreaker at the end of the LR when your evade frame is already used up. You also aren't considering team fights, where the Ranger LRing away from a Spellbreaker will trigger the FC to hit others when those players would have otherwise stopped aiming attacks at the Spellbreaker.

    This mechanical problem needs to be fixed. If this same problem were happening on a skill on the class that you play, you know you would agree with me.

    You going into a wall when using it is the same as complaining that it sent you off the a ledge or cliff; every case is your fault for poor positioning, not a flaw in the skill.

    You're still understanding/identifying with situations rangers get into. Example: at mid in forest, sometimes effects like spectral ring or ring of warding ect, will surround you but a certain side of it will clip into a wall. Normally using LR would make you hit the outside of Spectral Ring or Ward or Dragon's Maw, but if the side clips into the elevation, you can put your back to the wall and use LR without penalty.

    Argue all you want but don't parade as if you knew about maining Ranger.

    Congrats, you hit the SpB with a damage skill that procs it and hits your team. That's literally applicable with any other skill that does similar things. Don't use it when a SpB is using FC right in front of you.

    That's not really the point bud. The point is that LR is an escape skill but for whatever reason has random tiny damage attached to it so that it ruins the cast. If this is intended then w/e, but if it wasn't intended to ruin LR usage, I'm simply pointing out to Arenanet that it is a problem. That damage could at least be substantial for all the mechanical problems it causes.

    Are you really assuming that because I don't agree with you on this issue that I don't play the class? It sounds like you're just incapable of working around the skills functions and need to either stop using it or get over it.

    No, I assuming you don't play Ranger because you aren't identifying anything that a Ranger main would identify. All of the things you're saying is coming from a place of imagining & assumption, rather than experience.

    Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'? You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly. So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger.

    If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it.

    You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem. You repeatedly claimed that Flashbang was an issue in relation to LR when it has no interaction with it at all, so you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

    This forum thread isn't about those skills, it's about Lightning Reflexes. If you would like to make a thread involving those then feel free to do so.

    Also, riposting shadows , withdraw and RFI on meta d/p? s/d with RFI / withdraw sure but s/d isnt even the meta pick. Yea, you still have a point but again this thread isn't about those skills. This doesn't mean it isn't acknowledged.

    The crying "my skill does it too, what about mine so you shouldn't be able to change it and i shouldn't be left out too" never really solves anything and instead just makes you look like a baby in the middle of people trying to have an actual conversation on getting something productive done on either side of it getting changed or not changed.

    It really just negates any kind of productivity that could be accomplished and turns it into more of a personal thing rather than an objective goal. This happens a lot in the forums, people put their bias against a class that may or may not be op or may or may not have op abilities and try to break down a proposal based on personal grudges with the class. For the most part this is fine because conversation usually results in nothing anyway, because they don't balance around people in the PVP forums. They balance around casual performance and people in the PVE forums.

    Back to the actual topic, the reality is that LR is a meta pick no matter the build. You essentially need it, whether it's broken (broken != the only option, it happens to be really good but it also happens to be the only pick available for general build structure) or not negates the actual issue being presented in the thread but people get too blinded by something being busted they don't stop and entertain even the slightest open-mindedness regarding change.

    We use other skills with similar functions to determine if one is overperforming both in the design on its face and against other skills in the same category.

    This isn't a conversation about needed change or terrible function that's holding a skill back from being a meta pick or even used at all, it's the OP unable to deal with the intended drawbacks of LR and asking for it to be removed while completely ignoring the strengths of it.

    Would appreciate it if you wouldn't put words into my mouth. I said nothing like that. Reread my OP post to see what I said, that this thread discussion was about.

    Thanks.

    Again, LR is the superior version of all the skills that work the same way, both in function and cooldown

    That is an opinion that is negligent vs. the discussion, which is about an unnecessary mechanic tied to a skill that serves no purpose other than to cancel its usage. No other skill like it has such a drawback. It is clearly an unintended mechanic.

    we're saying other skills do it too when the OP tries to use those similar functions as a baseline for change when others function the same way with no hinderance.

    But they don't function the same way because things like Roll For Initiative or Withdraw or ect ect, do not have random tiny damage attached to them which creates reveal and procs passive CCs. Get your mechanics straight before making arguments.

    Again, if you use LR and it sends you off a cliff, it's your problem for poor positioning; same applies to RFI, RS, and Withdrawal. Nothing special about any of them, they're working as intended.

    No one said anything about poorly aiming LR and going off a cliff. That is something you said. This thread is solely discussing the damage proc on LR and the issues that the damage proc creates. You should reread the OP post and try to help keep things on topic.

    There is no issue being presented.

    Reread the OP post to see the issue that is being presented. It is very finely outlined in the OP post. Lightning Reflexes is the only skill of its type to possess this problem.

    The skill is working as intended and the OP doesn't like the intended use.

    Are you sure about that? That's up to Arenanet to decide, not you. It could be working as intended and I've already stated this. Maybe they want it to have that drawback. But judging from how it is the only skill of its type of possess such a drawback on what is supposed to be a disengage skill, I would put my money on it being an unintended mechanic.

    But regardless, you need to relax a bit. Making discussion is a great but there really isn't a reason to take things into a place of misinformation.

    Either use another skill or get over it

    Nah, I'll continue to advocate that the damage proc is an unnecessary mechanic that needs to be removed, right along with all of the Ranger players who have already made the same statement, and all of the ones to come who will make the same statement as the years go on. tyvm.

    On mobile so I'll keep this short.

    LR has damage tied to it, it's in the skill description so it's pretty safe to say Anet intended for it to do damage and have every consequence for it.

    Literally 2 effects/skills stun you during use so just don't use them when those things are active. Stop making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    You can advocate all you want, but it's working as intended and your just beating a dead tree. I'll say again, repeatedly citing Flashbang as a problem in relation to LR just shows you've got no idea what you're talking about. L2P or use another skill.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    i still think LR is fine as is it would be better to just look at the engi shield stun and put a icd on how often it can stun a person just like shocking aura that way the odds of you getting stuck with LR is less likely. complain about the real issue which is the shield block having no icd per target not about oh my skill needs the damage removed so i dont get trapped or it needs more damage to make it worth getting trapped every so often.

    Like everyone one else said LR is one of the best evasion tools in the game simply based on its cd alone thats not even counting all its other trait boosted functions.
    Sorry @Trevor Boyer.6524 I cant agree with a QoL change on a meta skill thats already far better than other skills similar to it.

    At best you should be asking why passive cc is not being addressed properly as it effects all classes not just ranger which would be more reasonable to debate from several perspectives.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    He doesn't have a point though. Those skills don't cause random damage resulting in being interrupted from passive CCs.

    He's just fishing for reasons to argue at this point.

    Kind of like if two people were discussing the parameters of a car engine, and then a third person kept interjecting and pointing out how the car was painted red, which has nothing to do with the car engine.

    He does have a point, which it seems you don't understand or ignore on purpose.
    One way or another, if you want that damage to be removed, as a price for such change I demand base 50s cd on it, that should be fine "balance" for such overloaded skill.
    LR gets interrupted additionally by like 2 skills/effects(Shocking Aura and Static Shield) compared to others with same "rollback" mechanic thingie... Like for real...

    No he doesn't have a point or make a point at all, and he rarely even addresses anything that anyone has actually said other than himself, and what he says streeeetches the truth of mechanics, often leaving out the facts. What he is doing is compounding his own statements and responding to them over and over, as if they were the basis of the discussion, rather than keeping it real and paying attention to what people are actually saying, and he seems to like to toss in a lot of misleading misinformation while doing it.

    What you said Troll, is a viable discussion, about LR going to 50s if damage is removed. That at least makes sense and you're not making a play on words or putting anything into anyone's mouth while making your statement, and there is no misinformation in it. This other guy on the other hand, is just spouting things off that are borderline worth reporting for derailment of the topic.

    Take a look at what I mean:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Why are you acting like this skill is ranger exclusive with its 'issues'?

    Acting as if this thread weren't a thread specifically discussing the class Ranger and the skill Lightning Reflexes.

    Acting as if Lightning Reflexes weren't the only skill of its type that has a random damage proc that creates the listed issues.

    The issue being discussed is indeed Ranger specific.

    You know Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Riposting Shadows all function the same way and nobody cries about them because everyone understands the uses of these skills and uses them accordingly.

    Acting as if Lightning Reflexes were being misused? That's a lot of propaganda man. That's quite a statement to throw at someone like me.

    Nobody cries about Withdraw, Riposting Shadows, Roll for Init, ect ect, because those skills don't have tiny damage proc that cancels the usage. See right here is again acting like these skills work exactly the same as LR, but clearly they do not. His entire statement encourages the idea that those skills are the same as LR but that everyone using those other skills don't complain about them because they are properly using them, and that only LR users are complaining because they aren't using LR properly. That's a lot of propaganda man. It's just too much. Keep the discussion real and less routed with misinformation.

    So if we use them into a spectral ring, it's our fault and not the skill. Same applies when we're playing Ranger.

    See right here, he brings this up as fuel for his argument but that is nothing like what I actually said. I was using Spectral Ring as an example earlier of how LR can be used advantageously while putting your back to a wall and LRing into the wall. Not once did I say anything about LRing across Spectral Ring, nor did I complain about Spectral Ring, but he brings this up as if I had been complaining about LR vs. Spectral Ring and makes sure to point out that it's your fault if you go across Spectral Ring. He's going out into Nevernever land here with his statement. What's he's said here actually has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at all. Nothing.

    Ask yourself why would he even go here, if the discussion is about the damage proc on Lightning Reflexes? How did he end up there with his statement?

    If LR wasn't intended to have damage then Anet would have removed it ages ago. It's intended but you just don't like it.

    Obviously we don't like it. That's why threads keep getting written about it. And whether or not it is intended is besides the point. We've seen plenty of "intended" mechanics get fixed over the years. So why bring this up why take the time to point out the obvious?

    You're not identifying anything a Ranger would identify, you're arguing for the sake of your class over others because it's likely your favorite when the skill in question is arguably stronger than the equivalentones on other classes. 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.' Only here you've got the gall to argue people who don't agree aren't Ranger players. L2P or stop using LR, this is entirely your problem.

    This is the equivalent of crying racism in politics. Tbh over the years, I cringe every time I see someone play this card. It's just bad forum conduct and rude to other users. It's the simplest way to aim a super cheap low blow at someone in attempts to discredit them. I often think that it should be in the forum TOS that forum users aren't allowed to point at and accuse someone of bias based off what class they main. "As if every single player in the game didn't main and favor a particular class" Well I guess none of anyone's feedback can be trusted! gg

    anyway

    Yeah so, For all of the garbage that this man has written, I couldn't take any of it seriously because all of it is cheap shots and low blows, with no real body of statement for discussion. Whereas @TrollingDemigod.3041 was able to make a single sentence that comprised an actual topic for discussion.

    Some people should pay attention and learn a lesson from that.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    i still think LR is fine as is it would be better to just look at the engi shield stun and put a icd on how often it can stun a person just like shocking aura that way the odds of you getting stuck with LR is less likely. complain about the real issue which is the shield block having no icd per target not about oh my skill needs the damage removed so i dont get trapped or it needs more damage to make it worth getting trapped every so often.

    Like everyone one else said LR is one of the best evasion tools in the game simply based on its cd alone thats not even counting all its other trait boosted functions.
    Sorry @Trevor Boyer.6524 I cant agree with a QoL change on a meta skill thats already far better than other skills similar to it.

    At best you should be asking why passive cc is not being addressed properly as it effects all classes not just ranger which would be more reasonable to debate from several perspectives.

    Yeah I agree with you on the passive CC thing. I've already written plenty on that in this forum. But for w/e reason Arenanet is choosing to leave it all as is right now. I only revisited the LR thing because it is increasingly becoming a larger and larger problem as more players are playing sword/shield Holos and rocking Shock Aura all of the time, if not being handed it from Aura Share.

    You guys keep bringing up "Not changing anything because LR is better than other skills like it" but see I'm looking at it like that. This isn't about OP or UP, for me. The basis of what I am saying is coming from a place of general game design and cleaning up things that are just sloppy. I mean you could have something that was the strongest skill in the game, but that doesn't mean it isn't sloppy and dumb to use. So, if you can see what I mean there.

    Anyway, I respect your views. Thanks for keeping things clean.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • Supreme.3164Supreme.3164 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Flesh_Wurm

    If we're talking about stunbreaks creating distance on more or less the same CD untraited, while being basically the "same" CD if traited; if we're talking about CD then there are several others stunbreaks in the same CD category

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stomp
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Judgment
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outrage
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Air

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    A player is not entitled to a fair 1v1 vs. everything. Conquest is not a 1v1 simulator, so he's correct that there are many ways to analyse and improve upon a lost encounter

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    some skills that are pushed can have niche counterplay like lightning reflexes does now, the same is true for alot of skills, its good for the game, its annoying for the user of the skill, but good for the game

    riptide has the same thing, and instead of asking for anet to remove it, i recommend players to counterplay it in this way if they recognize they have the opportunity

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Supreme.3164Supreme.3164 Member ✭✭✭

    @Grimjack.8130 said:
    some skills that are pushed can have niche counterplay like lightning reflexes does now, the same is true for alot of skills, its good for the game, its annoying for the user of the skill, but good for the game

    riptide has the same thing, and instead of asking for anet to remove it, i recommend players to counterplay it in this way if they recognize they have the opportunity

    This community is all about removing what they don't like instead than accepting it as part of the challenge necessary for the well being of the game

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    A player is not entitled to a fair 1v1 vs. everything. Conquest is not a 1v1 simulator, so he's correct that there are many ways to analyse and improve upon a lost encounter

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2020

    In all seriousness though they’d have to change the way it functions. Rn it does damage damage at the very start and this is the point where it is best to get a stun off- since if you stun it right away they don’t get the roll back, evade or the vigor/condi clear + fury if traited. Like wise the instant damage acts as it’s own trade off for being back loaded to the later part of the animation, that is to say that if you only get off the front animation- at least you did that damage + maybe even applied condis depending on the build. If you get rid of the damage make it an even level animation with dodge at the start and boons + condi clear instantly.
    This changed is necessary if you get rid of the damage to make it still functional, I predict either way ppl will complain about this skill, but also I think it would be against how ranger functions because all the skills are like this to were you need to completely finish the animation to get full benefits. Hence why things with cc are countering ranger builds in general- throughout most of ranger- possibly besides boon beast which had insane stability uptime

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Flesh_Wurm

    If we're talking about stunbreaks creating distance on more or less the same CD untraited, while being basically the "same" CD if traited; if we're talking about CD then there are several others stunbreaks in the same CD category

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stomp
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Judgment
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outrage
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Air

    we are talking about stun removing tools that dodge, the only things close that come to mid as I said are sand through glass ( mechanically unsound skill )
    roll for ini ( 50s cd vs 30s cd ) twist of fate ( 75s vs 30s ), riposting shadows ( 40 energy vs 30s )
    and those skills are much harder to trait, you gave example of blink, I have to shoot myself in the foot by taking chaos to trait this thing, so in reality it has 35s cd vs 24s off LR.
    you also kind of have bandits defence? but it doesnt move your character. LR is just hands down the best in its category

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Flesh_Wurm

    If we're talking about stunbreaks creating distance on more or less the same CD untraited, while being basically the "same" CD if traited; if we're talking about CD then there are several others stunbreaks in the same CD category

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stomp
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Judgment
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outrage
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Air

    we are talking about stun removing tools that dodge, the only things close that come to mid as I said are sand through glass ( mechanically unsound skill )
    roll for ini ( 50s cd vs 30s cd ) twist of fate ( 75s vs 30s ), riposting shadows ( 40 energy vs 30s )
    and those skills are much harder to trait, you gave example of blink, I have to shoot myself in the foot by taking chaos to trait this thing, so in reality it has 35s cd vs 24s off LR.
    you also kind of have bandits defence? but it doesnt move your character. LR is just hands down the best in its category

    I feel like people are too hung up on the idea "skills that are similar" skills that dodge and remove stun. I mean you have things that are stronger than that, such as Blink and Shadow Step or JI, which are stun breaks and don't need dodge because they are a long range teleport for disengage. The list goes on like this. LR may be the strongest skill of its type, but it isn't the strongest stun breaking disengage tool, not even close. I mean if you look just Withdraw, it cleanses waaaay more condis than LR, does a large heal, stealths you at the end of the animation, and is on like a 10s CD in pvp. I'm just pointing that out. I feel like LR is getting an inordinate amount of attention for being so strong, when other skills of its type are doing a lot more for the builds that run them than people are giving them credit for.

    And @Dantheman.3589 yeah, those are the functions that people don't seem to be aware of. When I was saying that passive CC literally cancels the use of LR as if it weren't on your utility bar at all, I don't think some people quite understood what I meant by that.

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Supreme.3164 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @GewRoo.4172 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    in my mind it was always a downside to the skill, that weights against how kitten OP the rest of it is.

    LR is no different than any other skill that functions exactly like it, of which there are many. But none of the others have a rando damage proc to ruin the skill usage.

    Also, we aren't talking a "downside" here. We are talking about complete neutralization of the skill vs. passive CCs, as if you had only brought 2 utilities into the match rather than 3. No other skill in the game has such a busted fundamental behind its mechanic.

    what other skills?
    this removes stuns with almost no cooldown, creates massive distance evades and gives vigor, no other skill comes to mind that is even close to that value

    Roll for Initiative, Riposting Shadows are similar in some way. I am with you OP. You are a lunatic tho.

    exactly my point?
    30s cd vs 50s cd, massive difference
    30s cd vs 40s cd, massive difference
    more over you always take cd reduction trait so realistically its 24s cd.
    untraited roll has more then twice the cooldown bruh

    edit there is also twist of fate, 75s cd vs 30s
    the CLOSEST thing I can think of is sand through glass, but that skill is just not right for use, undeveloped per say

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Flesh_Wurm

    If we're talking about stunbreaks creating distance on more or less the same CD untraited, while being basically the "same" CD if traited; if we're talking about CD then there are several others stunbreaks in the same CD category

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stomp
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Judgment
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outrage
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Air

    we are talking about stun removing tools that dodge, the only things close that come to mid as I said are sand through glass ( mechanically unsound skill )
    roll for ini ( 50s cd vs 30s cd ) twist of fate ( 75s vs 30s ), riposting shadows ( 40 energy vs 30s )
    and those skills are much harder to trait, you gave example of blink, I have to shoot myself in the foot by taking chaos to trait this thing, so in reality it has 35s cd vs 24s off LR.
    you also kind of have bandits defence? but it doesnt move your character. LR is just hands down the best in its category

    Not only is it the best in category but the primary complaint about it being stopped by passive CC is literally 2 things; shocking aura and static shield. Hardly anything to justify removing the damage for.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2020

    Does any other class have skills like this that work against the profession? Signet of renewal not cleansing when merged for no benefit to the ranger. Signer of renewal having a range for the ranger transfer (despite being a 50s cd). Guard not working when merged. Etc.

    These and the LR damage just work against reactive play. Shouldn't have to wait for a window of opportunity to stunbreak effectively.

    LR doesnt work in rings already, weaver mudslide, doesnt stunbreak taunt (taunt is not removed by stunbreak with cast times), or work against shocking aura or the shield stun on engi. Asking for it to remove damage to not proc blocks or shocking aura would be a nice start in some QoL changes that ranger has missed out on for ages.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ~ I left GW2 on 11/22/2020 due to widespread cheating and the lack of action to moderate it

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    That is an opinion that is negligent vs. the discussion, which is about an unnecessary mechanic tied to a skill that serves no purpose other than to cancel its usage. No other skill like it has such a drawback. It is clearly an unintended mechanic.

    That it is an unintended mechanic is just a baseless assumption from your side.

    I think it is actually intended. As others have pointed out, lightning reflexes is quite strong compared to other similar skills if you look at what it offers and it's cooldown. Don't know if you are familiar with the term power budget, it is a theoretical construct that assigns levels of power to mechanics to balance them out, meaning that every skill can have x power budget.

    I think the damage is added as a negative effect for the skill (by opening it up to interactions like revealing you from stealth or stunning you when hitting the aura). The skill is allowed to have so much power because they are buying back some power budget with a negative effect.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just a side note: The aura has a 2s ICD between stuns. So you cannot hit the aura, get stunned and get restunned when using LR.

    Perfectly possible with engi shield though of course, because... you know... it is engi.

    (Might still be an issue in team fights and stuff of course.)

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The issue is probably less the damage part than the mechanic of applying an unavoidable CC when struck.

  • LUL this thread. Sorry, guys and gals, but the irrelevant damage on LR likely only exists because of its theme (LIGHTNING Reflexes). The fact that having damage on LR comes with its own drawback is probably unintentional; or not what was originally in mind. This IS ArenaNet we're talking about here. It's the kitten theme for meme boys. But by chance some madlad back in 2012 did create this skill—and specifically added the damage portion for those 300IQ counter-plays to off set its low CD, congrats, big brain.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ranger can already run 3 stunbreaks which is seen often, how about not using it or accept the way it is?

    I always use SotM on Revenant and I understand what it means to deal barely any dmg in an AoE of merely 240 at the benefit of everything else it brings, especially considering that it mainly part itself with the flow of the class afterall and while multitasking my skills such as stunbreaking with either RotGD, RS or PA while swapping legends can throw me over unless I work around it. It is what it is.

    If anything you can use that skill to get rid of blindness or aegis, it's not all negative to have such skill in your arsenal.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.