Once again core pays the price

Same mistake that took core ele and engi to garbage level still going on

Those nerfs to core burning guard and core rev are bad (charged mist)

Remove superspeed from trapper rune, do whatever you had to do with that renegade shortbow.

Stop gutting core

Other than F2P players, are there really that many core players left to be worth catering to?

Core builds will always be hard to balance because this game does not have core elite specs.

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:Core builds will always be hard to balance because this game does not have core elite specs.

Say what? It is honestly really simple. The core classes are not causing an issue, so don't touch the core classes. Like with Engineer, core Engineer was constantly gutted when instead they needed to gut Holosmith traits and abilities.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Other than F2P players, are there really that many core players left to be worth catering to?

No, but this is exactly the reason why. Anet destroys core classes in an attempt to fix elite specs because...... reasons. Also, core Necromancer still sees plenty of play in PvP and WvW.

Point being, elite specs were introduced as alternative play styles according to Anet, not replacements. They even went on this big task of creating trade offs for playing an elite spec before they abandoned that concept.

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:Core builds will always be hard to balance because this game does not have core elite specs.

It's far from being "really simple". Core skills and core traits contribute to how strong elite specs can be, but the reverse does not happens. Therefore, any nerfing or buffing to core classes will always affect the elite specs of those classes.

"Just nerf an elite spec's skills and traits" isn't always the best solution, because they aren't always the strongest tools in their kit set. For example, Revenant's staff and shiro are and have always been super strong, so they were toned down this patch to weaken both Herald and Renegade. Of course, with such change, any core power Revenant builds, which literally do not exist due to how bad they are, will become even worse. But it's unavoidable, because Herald and Renegade had already seen their kits nerfed multiple times, so most of what was left to nerf were the core skills and the core traits.

GW2's core classes would be a lot easier to balance if there existed core elite specs, because it would give them exclusive access to skills and traits that could be freely buffed without affecting expansion elite specs.

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:Core builds will always be hard to balance because this game does not have core elite specs.

Incorrect. If a something is overpowered on an elite spec but not on the core spec, then something in the elite spec is causing that issue. It is as simple as that. The issue is, it is easier to simply nerf the core spec than it is to actually investigate what is causing the elite spec to over perform.

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Other than F2P players, are there really that many core players left to be worth catering to?

They likely balance based on a holistic viewpoint. It would be too time consuming to not only balance between thee game modes but also across those who have none of the expansions, those who have HoT, those who have PoF and HoT, and those who have all.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Other than F2P players, are there really that many core players left to be worth catering to?

Who has what expansion is irrelevant. If a core class is not over performing, then there is no reason whatsoever to nerf it. It is nothing short of incompetence.

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:Core builds will always be hard to balance because this game does not have core elite specs.

They could have left both shiro port and staff alone, by just nerfing shortbow dmg, shortbow provides too much dps so it allows you running staff for defensive measures, if it got nerfed further they would have to invest in a second weapon set with more dmg instead of getting best of both world with a super offensive and a super defensive weapon. Even with shiro stuff power herald was ok, so problem was 100% something with renegade.

@Shaogin.2679 said:Incorrect. If a something is overpowered on an elite spec but not on the core spec, then something in the elite spec is causing that issue. It is as simple as that. The issue is, it is easier to simply nerf the core spec than it is to actually investigate what is causing the elite spec to over perform.

Not always. Sometimes, what makes an elite spec strong is not its own unique kit in a vacuum, but how that kit synergies with core skills and core traits.

In other words, core specs, in theory, can be as good as elite specs whenever there's really strong synergy between 3 core traitlines. For example, old core power guardian, when it was still viable, relied on Radiance (huge critical chance buffs while under retaliation) + Virtues (easy access to said retaliation) + Valor (easy access to fury and a buff to the utility skills that the build needed to function), which glued the whole thing together. (In addition, Virtues + Valor lines offered decent survival as well.) Therefore, there was no room for elite spec trait lines in there without breaking the whole thing.

But here's the issue: It's much easier to create a good synergy between 2 traitlines than it is to create good synergy between 3 traitlines. For that reason, elite specs are viable for as long as their unique traits are good, but core specs need a very strict and tight 3-traitlines-that-are-good-and-even-better-when-coupled-together synergy to function.

This is not a balance problem. It's a design problem. Core specs and elite specs operate under different rules, and those rules make some easier to balance than the others.

Adding elite specs to core classes would fix that design assymetry.

@Khalisto.5780 said:They could have left both shiro port and staff alone, by just nerfing shortbow dmg, shortbow provides too much dps so it allows you running staff for defensive measures, if it got nerfed further they would have to invest in a second weapon set with more dmg instead of getting best of both world with a super offensive and a super defensive weapon. Even with shiro stuff power herald was ok, so problem was 100% something with renegade.

Shortbow is strong with Shiro. You don't see anyone picking that weapon without picking that legend as well, but you do see the reverse: Shiro builds without shortbow. What does that tell you?Moreso, Anet's dev stated that they find the meta too slow at the moment, and want to nerf overall defense/ sustain, not damage.And finally, the point of that build is to deal damage, so nerfing the damage and keeping the defense makes no sense.

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Other than F2P players, are there really that many core players left to be worth catering to?

If you know better then by all means provide what balance changes they could have made.

Having too much Burn was the literal problem that Guardian's had (and possibly still have) in PvP.Toning that down was the right choice.

And for the Trapper Rune, I'd rather have Arenanet remove the Stealth instead.

@Fueki.4753 said:Having too much Burn was the literal problem that Guardian's had (and possibly still have) in PvP.Toning that down was the right choice.

And for the Trapper Rune, I'd rather have Arenanet remove the Stealth instead.

They didn't tone DH down, they killed it. In any competitive game, a 5%, 10% or 15% damage buff/ nerf can be the difference between making a build unviable or viable. DH's damage was nerfed by 50%. Anet is very clearly telling us that they don't want that build, in its current iteration, to exist.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Other than F2P players, are there really that many core players left to be worth catering to?And how that matters?You know that e-speces should be just an "option" instead of "upgrade" to core, right? That means A-net should focus on balancing game around core overall and e-speces being an alternative playstyle and nothing beside that. I would gladly play core classes instead of being forced to play powercreeped core+ e-speces.If it was me I would simply delete almost every e-spec from the game since they're poorly designed with few exceptions like Reaper and then design everything from scratch.Forcing players to buy expansions so that they can still be relevant in the content by using powercreeped e-speces isn't really a great idea in long run.

Allow me to break it down super simple like. Let's say a core class has skill x. This core class is not over performing in any way. Now let's say this core class gets an elite spec that has strong damage modifiers. This elite spec when using skill x is over performing due to the damage modifiers from the elite spec.

Now what Anet is doing and what some of you are suggesting, is nerfing skill x so that it is no longer over performing. The issue with this, is that the core class has now been severely weakened, despite the fact that the issue causing the imbalance was the damage modifiers from the elite spec. What is even worse, is that the issue with the damage modifier still remains, players will likely just pair it with other skills instead, and Anet will react by nerfing those skills as these new builds pop up. As a result, the core spec will be repeatedly nerfed to oblivion, which will ultimately diminish build diversity. And all of this could of been avoided by simply nerfing the elite spec's damage modifier.

That is about as simple as I can break it down. If you still don't agree, then that is on you. And keep in mind, I am not talking about skills or traits that are over performing no matter what spec it is used on (core or elite). That is a different story entirely, and is not what is being discussed here.

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:They didn't tone DH down, they killed it. In any competitive game, a 5%, 10% or 15% damage buff/ nerf can be the difference between making a build unviable or viable. DH's damage was nerfed by 50%. Anet is very clearly telling us that they don't want that build, in its current iteration, to exist.

Decent burn Guardian didn't even need to full burn duration to kill players, so it's not a 50% nerf.The much more important parts, base burn damage and scaling with condition damage, have not been touched.

@Shaogin.2679 said:Allow me to break it down super simple like. Let's say a core class has skill x. This core class is not over performing in any way. Now let's say this core class gets an elite spec that has strong damage modifiers. This elite spec when using skill x is over performing due to the damage modifiers from the elite spec.

Now what Anet is doing and what some of you are suggesting, is nerfing skill x so that it is no longer over performing. The issue with this, is that the core class has now been severely weakened, despite the fact that the issue causing the imbalance was the damage modifiers from the elite spec. What is even worse, is that the issue with the damage modifier still remains, players will likely just pair it with other skills instead, and Anet will react by nerfing those skills as these new builds pop up. As a result, the core spec will be repeatedly nerfed to oblivion, which will ultimately diminish build diversity. And all of this could of been avoided by simply nerfing the elite spec's damage modifier.

That is about as simple as I can break it down. If you still don't agree, then that is on you. And keep in mind, I am not talking about skills or traits that are over performing no matter what spec it is used on (core or elite). That is a different story entirely, and is not what is being discussed here.

/\ This

Literally holo and rev, they just play this game of picking up what has not been nerfed and always pop up with an OP build once one of their counters is slightly nerfed, when they are not strong enough to faceroll despite of having counters. Meanwhile core traitline are murdered and real problem not adressed, what they done today with charged mist is super poor choice, something that will affect all rev builds heavily cuz one weapon was overperforming

yeah ur not allowed to nerf core when its the core mechanics that are overperforming! nerf somethign else instead!

Core Ele is honestly the only profession that is unplayable in PvP. The rest is fine, I play Core Rev on a daily basis.

I'mma just throw this out there.

You want them to make elite speccs, then centre the nerfs to basically remove the need for said elite speccs so they are unused??

If your someone who plays this game for mainly Spvp or WvWvW you are basically telling Anet to make the expansion completely wasted on those players therefore hitting their profits?

It's obvious to why it works this way. And why Anet would want to keep the elite speccs the viable ones.

But the other option is raising level caps and gear to make their expansions needed for optimal play... Otherwise we would all just not buy the expansions lol?

Effectively unless Ur playing this game solely for PvE without the elite speccs u have no need to buy the expansion effectively and HoT would be irrelevant to buy for anyone due to not needing it outside the first set of speccs.

You can't create a elite specc then make it non-meta. It's a waste of time to do things in that way around really.

I won't say If it is or isn't right, in the ideal world every build and weapon would be equally as balanced. But we know why they don't leave core at the top

I said it awhile back that the issue with burnguard was permeating wrath. Slotting DH only amplified the amount of burning pressure the class could output.

The burn on guard core traits/skills was very clearly the largest part of the problem.

@Shao.7236 said:Core Ele is honestly the only profession that is unplayable in PvP. The rest is fine, I play Core Rev on a daily basis.

Yeah it was easier to release core ele 2.0 : Weaver...let the kids be happy for while then nerf Weaver and core ele so now core ele is 2x worst than before Weaver...quality balance