Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

This is a heated topic, but let's have a serious discussion about it.


Raids are not profitable for ArenaNet

Let me say this clearly: I do raid, and I love challenging content, but I have many friends who are utter noobs, and can't learn to raid with what we have now. They simply can't. Don't start lecturing me about training groups and whatever. They can't.

Then they don't deserve raiding.

No one has entitlement to any game mode ever, specially hardcore players, who are pretty much those contributing the less to the game's finances, since they already have a lot of gold and convert it to gems instead of using real money. If we went by a simple metric of what is good for this game, raids are pretty much at the bottom. ArenaNet would make more money by just releasing open world zergfest content, than with raids. Raids are a special snowflake, and that's why it can't hold on forever, not like this.

Hell, if tomorrow they scrapped raiding altogether, and started doing dungeons again, you think the happy people wouldn't outnumber the angry people? Think about it.

Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders.


Lack of difficulty modes is hurting hardcore raiding

I like my raids hard, and I guess many raiders do as well. I absolutely despise some of the easier bosses, specially escort and trio, and I believe the challenge motes from W4 should have been the default gameplay option for those bosses.

Why does ArenaNet put in those easy bosses in, then? It's pretty clear, and you don't need to be a genius. They're there for the noobs.

Because there's no easy/normal/hard mode distinction, all those difficulty levels are shoved in inside the same single raid mode. Because, as the point above shows, raids are not profitable if only the 1% experiences them.

We'll keep getting things like escort as long as there's no difficulty modes. All of you arguing against difficulty modes because raids need to stay hard and only hard, you're shooting yourselves in the face, and I hope you enjoy easy bosses and dumb filler events, because we'll keep getting them. Not like the normal bosses are too hard, either. I think VG was 2-manned a few days ago? Looking good for raid difficulty, eh?


Difficulty modes would be healthy for raids

First of all, difficulty modes don't invalidate each other. If you like the hard mode, you'll stay there. Noobs enjoying raids in easy mode doesn't affect you in any way. Are fractals ruined because you can select a level between 1 and 100? Is the top PvP league ruined by the lower leagues? I don't think so. Players start at the bottom, and once they learn, they start climbing higher, because no one wants to play easy mode forever, specially because when you go higher, fights and the rewards become better. Training sessions are lame, because you rely on other people willing to sacrifice their time to just help you. Noobs want to experience the content themselves, at their own pace, not wipe and wipe again and again. That should come later, once they've learned the basics and leave the easy mode.

Second, a difficulty split removes the need for casual events like escort and trio. Now the hard raid can be 100% hard, and not rely on pointless free LI filler. Even more, we can get a REAL hard mode, only for the 1%, pretty much like fractal challenge motes, where the content gets really crazy, and the best players don't have to waste their time doing the normal difficulty bosses naked or with half the party, which kinda ruins the image of raids.


Implementation ideas

Let's use Vale Guardian as the example:

  • Easy mode: Failing a green does much less damage (no wiping), blues teleport you closer, the boss and the red spark do less damage, and less CC required. Magnetite, one exotic, and chance for common ascended rewards per weekly kill. Some of the achievements and vendor options would be disabled.
  • Normal mode: Current situation. Magnetite, one exotic, one legendary insight, and chance for any of the vendor rewards per weekly kill.
  • Hard mode: Two simultaneous green spawns, blues stay as AoE a few seconds after spawning, and red sparks pull you gravitationally. Magnetite, one exotic, and guaranteed vendor reward per weekly kill.

Completing a boss in a mode will autocomplete all the bosses below it, and give you its rewards as well, so if you complete VG normal mode, you get normal and easy mode rewards, kinda like fractal daily chests.

As you see, you don't need a lot to split difficulty modes. A few changes here and there should make it easier for noobs. Hard mode can be more challenging to design, but since it's the hard mode, they can go really crazy and don't worry about a fair fight too much. A hard mode could be very cool to stream and watch, too.


I would hate to see raids disappear at some point in the future, and I want them to stay strong and healthy, for everyone, casual, dedicated, or hardcore. The above is my opinion on how to achieve this, but it's just that, my opinion.

So that's it. Feel free to vote in the poll, and whatever your opinion is, please express it civilly below.

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] 1006 votes

We need both easy and hard modes
51%
Vissarion.6509Red Haired Savage.5430Kheldorn.5123godfat.2604psizone.8437aandiarie.7195Tanek.5983Solori.6025Just a flesh wound.3589Seaunicorn.9317Davasa.4832Andrew Bourgeois.4023Fenom.9457DoctorWunderbar.5037Arioch.6507Lionessfeather.9371Kam.4092Poikjm.6520Jahroots.6791SidewayS.3789 519 votes
We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode
7%
Siobhan.6027joeyw.9531Sligher.6043LucianDK.8615EnemyCrusher.7324Matt H.6142Astralporing.1957Lascax.2163Ashantara.8731Silmar Alech.4305Kuulpb.5412Zanjii.8214Kapax.3801Bjorn Wolfen.4752Zaraki.5784Mantheren.5428Ohoni.6057Herdum.3194Giotto.2607Palador.2170 77 votes
We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode
7%
mazut.4296Cerioth.7062Murdyr.9204Umbramare.9156Grimjack.8130Cynn.1659Sublimatio.6981Glider.5792perry.9645Drecake.6174Renovatio.2504Theportalmaster.5026MithranArkanere.8957Alchimist.4738Skyblades.6485Silmariena.6205Finnkitkit.8304PetStain.8924Grimheart.2853DuckDuckBOOM.4097 80 votes
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties
25%
SpecterMAT.7306Seera.5916SlothPowah.1072WhatLiesBeneath.9018BlaqueFyre.5678MichalAniol.5807Dukotje.4382Thz.7569Rhiannon.1726Auri.1365ReaverKane.7598Dondarrion.2748pelle ossa.9705meeflak.9714Geisterlicht.6083Brandr Skjoldulfr.4810Dammerung.6419LunarRXA.5062Exciton.8942Vinceman.4572 259 votes
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution
7%
videoboy.4162maddoctor.2738BobbyT.7192Sephylon.4938Mara.6782Hot Sauce.2867Shampanix.3928SonicTHI.3217Randulf.7614CETheLucid.3964Fundor.2098Carighan.6758Viron.8024SteepledHat.1345yann.1946Rettan.9603LucianTheAngelic.7054Edgar Drake.8326CrustyBot.3564Felipe.1807 71 votes
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Comments

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders.

    How is a different difficulty mode going to bring us more actual raiders?
    I will give the exact same example I give all the time when someone mentions this terrible idea of "easy modes for training":
    Try joining a Fractal 100 CM while only having beaten Fractal 100. Or, since the easy modes are supposed to be a joke (based on your VG example) try joining Fractal 100 CM with knowledge of Fractal 25. To keep the comparison fair.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Raids don't need easy and hard modes. The easy mode will train bad habits with regards to the raids. Those who are able to explain the differences would not play the mode that doesn't give them the raid specific reward in enough numbers to be significant.

    Those who are not able to improve enough to do raids either through lack of desire or an actual limitation can do the raids by either paying for runs or by grouping with friends and/or guild members to be carried. That is if the want the raid specific rewards and players can be let into cleared raids to get the story if that's all they really want.

    It's better for ANet to fix the learning of raid specific skills out in other areas like personal story and open world or even fractals. So that players learn the skills outside of the demanding raids.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd like to say... at this point.. it is what it is.

    Love it, hate it, whatever, it is, what it is. our choices are deal and accept, or find something else. They have remained unchanged for years now, and this topic is old tired and dead.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Arenanets development in raids isn't wasted.... People clear the bosses every single week. Most people that enjoy raiding play raids even after clearing for the week, and enjoy going in, earning there rewards, then going back in to play a different class, practice a need role, help out friends, etc. The content arenanet made is being played quite consistently by the player population they made it for, no matter how small.. adding an easy mode in would take development resources and apply them to the rest of the community to be able to come in and auto attack a boss, kill it . And then what? What's the incentive to ever come back for the easy mode players ? You won't be learning the boss mechanics (or at least shouldnt be able to see them all, it spoils the fight, think of the community going into dhuum easy mode, learning the mechanics and then going in and killing it , it would have spoiled the fight completely) you won't be receiving rewards, you won't really he having fun, will you ? After killing it for the first time in easy mode. You're almost gauranteed to Never come back . Now you've seen the content you've faught so hard to have conformed to your taste's, the current rewards aren't good enough incentive for you to raid now, they sure as kitten won't be after you've killed it in easy mode

    It's a waste if time to make content for people that don't want to play it. People will go in . Kill it and never look back. How do you believe that's a better world then the one we are in now ? Where you have incentive to raid, where you get something out of it?

    Main ranger: Adalyn Del Rayna. Plz stop saying raids are toxic.. raids are what you make them

  • Silmar Alech.4305Silmar Alech.4305 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Shirlias.8104 said:
    They are not hard since they are aoe farmed, and most of all i don't want that devs invest resources in somethins useless like that.
    Find a group or a guild, or better create your own.

    Been there, done this. Above proved untrue: I'm not trying to get into raiding any more after doing it for 3 months with two different teams.

    Find the secret message: +++++++[>++++[>+>+++>++++>++++<<<<-]<-]>>>-.>-------.+++.+.------------.>++.<<<++++.>>++++++.>.<--..>++.-.<<<+.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    If there’s an easy mode then none of the rewards that are available right now **should not* be made made available to those playing on easy. The same goes for achievement and collection progression. Would you be fine with that? Chances are a lot of other players wouldn’t.

    It seems with every new raid wing release, we get 3-4 threads daily about easier raids. All the threads are pretty much identical and cover what’s already been talked to death, reawakened, and talk to death some more.

    Raids were designed solely to be challenging content for 10-man groups. The entire game does not need to cater everything to players that want faceroll content. If players want to do raids then they can join a training group to learn it, or create a group for it like everyone else did.

    Double negative? xD "None of the rewards should not be made available."

    Personally I dont think raids need an easy mode, but I can see why people envy the high quality designed encounters over a longer stretch than a single fractal. I kinda would love to see content that is like raids, with intermediate difficulty whilst in a completely different zone/area of the world.

    Fractals are the right difficulty lvl (I guess tier 3 ish) but they feel very constrained. Raids might not be considered overly story focussed (subjective really) but it is there and the topics and areas they do cover are important to many players.

    So a dungeons 2.0 as some "organised" 10 man content that isnt raidlike would definitely fill a gap imo. Especially as something half organized for non raid guilds.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Easy, normal, hard difficulties requests were commonly suggested in the past when people were looking for harder contents. Initially, some people asked to add hard or hell mode for dungeons, they didn't. Why would they do so for raid?

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    --

    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I have a friend who pretty much only has full use of 1 hand, he not only raids but doesn’t often fail mechanics and does decent dps on his condi warrior. He will never be a top tier warrior like you see in raid guilds but he is maybe 2-3k dps off what many other warriors are doing in these try hard videos I see with arc up.

    Now I understand that for some people they do have limitations on how well they can do, however most people have trouble with raids not because the raids themselves are hard but because they lack the will or the drive to actually sit down, watch what they did wrong, own up to what they did wrong and work to improve it. I’ve seen people who are not what I would class as stupid (they have degrees) fail mechanics and perform a lot worse than my one handed friend, they have no physical disability and they’re clearly intelligent enough to comprehend what’s happening, it’s a lack of focus that is the issue.

    I stand with Mo.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    Right now we have 4 spots that are more or less fixed while the other 6 spots are more open.
    What could happen is an update to the LFG so squad leaders can more easily create "spots" for other players to fill. Once the most important spots in a Raid are filled, the rest can be really anyone. I got my first Sabetha kill by simply following my Ele rotation and then moving around her to avoid the flamethrower. I never watched a single video, nor read a guide on how to do Sabetha, I was the "10th", the person that was there only to dps, and they told me, "just follow us to rotate around the flamewall, and do what you always do, dps".
    The level of skill required there wasn't harder than the more difficult open world bosses, or story mode bosses, or fractal bosses. Rotate to avoid a flame, and follow your damage rotation, very simple even for lower skilled players. The same can be true for many of the Raid bosses, fill the important slots with experienced Raiders, then the rest of the slots can pretty much be filled by anyone with half a brain.
    Gorseval is almost open world difficulty content by this point, with the requirement of the players bringing good dps, something that you can be trained outside Raids too.

    There are exceptions here, but the important thing, is that not all slots required to Raid have the same level of difficulty, a way to clearly indicate this on the LFG could be used to open up Raids more.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    I see raids sort of like SAB tribulation mode, as in "one wrong step" and you can start over. (Or multiple "wrong" steps rather)

    I can see why not everyone is interested in the whole trial and error die startover playstyle.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    If there’s an easy mode then none of the rewards that are available right now **should not* be made made available to those playing on easy. The same goes for achievement and collection progression. Would you be fine with that? Chances are a lot of other players wouldn’t.

    It seems with every new raid wing release, we get 3-4 threads daily about easier raids. All the threads are pretty much identical and cover what’s already been talked to death, reawakened, and talk to death some more.

    Raids were designed solely to be challenging content for 10-man groups. The entire game does not need to cater everything to players that want faceroll content. If players want to do raids then they can join a training group to learn it, or create a group for it like everyone else did.

    Double negative? xD "None of the rewards should not be made available."

    Personally I dont think raids need an easy mode, but I can see why people envy the high quality designed encounters over a longer stretch than a single fractal. I kinda would love to see content that is like raids, with intermediate difficulty whilst in a completely different zone/area of the world.

    Fractals are the right difficulty lvl (I guess tier 3 ish) but they feel very constrained. Raids might not be considered overly story focussed (subjective really) but it is there and the topics and areas they do cover are important to many players.

    So a dungeons 2.0 as some "organised" 10 man content that isnt raidlike would definitely fill a gap imo. Especially as something half organized for non raid guilds.

    Oops. I meant that none of the existing rewards should be made available. I’ll fix it.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    While youtube video might be a good way to understanding how raid works ,it might not be in terms of getting actual experience in practical sense. Having different mode might be a good idea in terms of learning and get that motor skill tune for harder content . Having a one size fits all isn't working very well and there are frustrated paying customer that have support Guildwars for very long time and they deserve some of your attention. While there is a supportive raid community maybe it's just not what they are looking for.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    I see raids sort of like SAB tribulation mode, as in "one wrong step" and you can start over. (Or multiple "wrong" steps rather)

    I can see why not everyone is interested in the whole trial and error die startover playstyle.

    This isn't true at all. For most of the Raid bosses there are "slots" that have very low difficulty requirements. On the other hand, in SAB Tribulation Mode everyone must do the jumps on their own and the difficulty is the same for all players. The difficulty for the squad as a whole is high in Raids, but individual difficulty varies wildly. And this is something Anet could find ways of "exploiting".

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I will give the exact same example I give all the time when someone mentions this terrible idea of "easy modes for training":
    Try joining a Fractal 100 CM while only having beaten Fractal 100. Or, since the easy modes are supposed to be a joke (based on your VG example) try joining Fractal 100 CM with knowledge of Fractal 25. To keep the comparison fair.

    So you're saying new fractal players should jump straight to level 100, and don't bother doing lower levels because it's a waste of time? So instead, they should learn fractals by doing level 100cm and wiping again and again until they learn it, instead of playing from level 1 to 99.

    Sounds pretty dumb.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    If there’s an easy mode then none of the rewards that are available right now should be made made available to those playing on easy. The same goes for achievement and collection progression. Would you be fine with that? Chances are a lot of other players wouldn’t.

    Yes? It's exactly what I wrote at the first post, did you read it?

    Fractals tier 4 and cm has exclusive rewards and achievements too, and no one complaints. Why would they for raids? We're talking about an easy mode, not about "free legendary armor for everyone".

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    So, what we end up with is content that feels disconnected from the rest of the game, that is only enjoyed by a small percentage of players, that people "master" within a few weeks (month at the longest), and that comes out at a snail's pace (unfortunately, rightfully so, given the size of the team and target audience).
    That is not a sustainable model for success. If you doubt that, think about what raids would look like if the rest of the game weren't here. No one - not even hardcore raiders - would think that was enough - or interesting enough - to warrant their attention. They are relegated to ancillary content at best. And, when that ancillary content cannot have strong story ties to the rest of the game and is partially walled off due to the math of raiding (refuse to call them actually difficult), it will eventually begin to feel more and more out of place.

    Despite the reluctance from the developers and worries from hardercore raiders, the mode needs difficulty tiers. It needs them to justify stronger story ties to the GW2 narrative and to justify more development resources from Anet. Until that happens, we are stuck with how raids are now, a model that I believe is unsustainable longterm.

    Exactly, glad to see someone who understands the problem.

    Raids will never be good if they don't have an easy mode, because ArenaNet will never make hardcore-only content at a good enough pace. If you think they will, you're delusional. Enjoy your next escort "boss".

    @Seera.5916 said:
    It's better for ANet to fix the learning of raid specific skills out in other areas like personal story and open world or even fractals. So that players learn the skills outside of the demanding raids.

    So you want them to teach players raid mechanics outside of raids? That sounds like a waste of resources, it would be easier to add difficulty modes and focus those resources on more raid bosses instead.

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    Here's a prediction - now that a mod has moved the thread from the general subforum to the raid subforum, we will see the opinion skew heavily toward the "raids should only be hardcore" point of view in the poll.

    It's something we've seen before. Limiting the audience will result in very different results. Sorry to see that happen. Hopefully, any Anet devs trying to read into any results understands that and actually sees the (admittedly small scale) results prior to the thread move.

    Yeah, it's very sad. This topic gets always sidelined or outright censored. We will never be able to see the real opinion of common folk like this.

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    I see raids sort of like SAB tribulation mode, as in "one wrong step" and you can start over. (Or multiple "wrong" steps rather)

    I can see why not everyone is interested in the whole trial and error die startover playstyle.

    That's a pretty bad comparison. SAB has baby, normal, and tribulation mode. Exactly what the thread is asking for raids.

    A tribulation mode for raids would be awesome, but we'll never get it if we don't get baby mode too.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lonami.2987

    Yes? It's exactly what I wrote at the first post, did you read it?

    Fractals tier 4 and cm has exclusive rewards and achievements too, and no one complaints. Why would they for raids? We're talking about an easy mode, not about "free legendary armor for everyone".

    I did read it. Note the last thing I stated where I said that I don’t think all those that want an easy mode would be happy with it if they couldn’t get the existing rewards.

    Fractals are different as they were not designed to be challenging 10-player content. That is the sole purpose of raids which is to fill that void.

  • Evolute.6239Evolute.6239 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I don't see how they can spend that much development time in order to make tiered easy/normal/hard type raids. It would make it a raiding game.

    At the moment they release relatively good encounters, and as they add more wings, it allows them to release bosses of varied difficulty.

    They can't hand hold people into raids. They're already not very hard and most require very little effort (ie pulling 10k damage on a class that when optimized pulls 30k) will still allow you to succeed with wiggle room.

    Raids are about as casual as you can possibly get right now. You can join in any boss, as long as someone has an instance. You can quit or join as you please in LFG. You can do things at your own pace, with normal strategies (such as normal greens on vg) or advanced strategies (disorting greens).

    I don't see why they should change anything, really. Having some form of long term harder endgame is good.

  • Myhr.9108Myhr.9108 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Time for some merging into a mega-thread by Arena-net, then.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    So you're saying new fractal players should jump straight to level 100, and don't bother doing lower levels because it's a waste of time? So instead, they should learn fractals by doing level 100cm and wiping again and again until they learn it, instead of playing from level 1 to 99.

    No I say the opposite, a player that plays anything other than 100 won't find groups for 100 and a player that doesn't play 100 cm will never find a group for 100 cm. That you completed levels 1-99 means nothing for 100, and that you completed 100 doesn't mean anything for 100 cm. In a very similar way, your experience in an easy mode Raid proves nothing about your ability in the normal version, even worse it means that you know the wrong things about it. Also, similar how someone beating Escort means nothing about their skill on Matthias. Plus why asking for kill proofs of previous bosses to run the new Wing is absolutely stupid.

    I think the kill proofs are more of an indication of your skill level at beating bosses of raid quality in coordinated group. Never mind that you can still get carried or purchase kills.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    So you're saying new fractal players should jump straight to level 100, and don't bother doing lower levels because it's a waste of time? So instead, they should learn fractals by doing level 100cm and wiping again and again until they learn it, instead of playing from level 1 to 99.

    No I say the opposite, a player that plays anything other than 100 won't find groups for 100 and a player that doesn't play 100 cm will never find a group for 100 cm. That you completed levels 1-99 means nothing for 100, and that you completed 100 doesn't mean anything for 100 cm. In a very similar way, your experience in an easy mode Raid proves nothing about your ability in the normal version, even worse it means that you know the wrong things about it. Also, similar how someone beating Escort means nothing about their skill on Matthias. Plus why asking for kill proofs of previous bosses to run the new Wing is absolutely stupid.

    I think the kill proofs are more of an indication of your skill level at beating bosses of raid quality in coordinated group.

    I guess they exist for the first few weeks until players get kill proofs of the new Raid

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    We just need to wait till lfg is completely empty, by then anet might add some changes then again its might be too late for anything.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Raids are scripted, you can guess the boss next movement. It's just hard if you don't know his next movement or have a bad party composition.

  • @Phil.7369 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    This is a heated topic, but let's have a serious discussion about it.

    We already have several serious discussions about it, some in which you joined (some not).

    We have mostly the same participants, saying mostly the same things, and often digressing in the same direction (e.g. what's meant by "elitist" or "casual" or "reasonable").

    Yes and this is how changes are made. When a lot of people constantly rant about something or suggest the same thing over and over again. If we just shuted up and said nothing, then nothing would change.

    ANet listens and I know they can do this. This is why I just spent 10 mintues of my life writing this post.

    I'm not asking anyone to just "shuted up and say nothing". I'm saying: we already have over a dozen posts discussing exactly the same ideas, mostly by the same people. There's no need for yet another thread. It makes it harder for everyone, including the participants.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Anet (particularly, the Raid team) is doing nearly the best they can with a game that is not prepared to what we know as Raids in any way whatsoever. Seriously, they're really pushing the envelope with this content. You know why people get so frustrated that they "can't" play raids? In many cases, it's because of how amazingly well done they are, to the point you wish you were playing it even if you despise the very concept of raiding. Everything about it is so good that most mechanics slowly found their way into the rest of the game. From the well paced and well developed lore tidbits to the addition of challenge motes (the only problem with them is not being repeatable really), every little detail on the Raids appear to be that much more carefully tailored than the rest of the game. It was only until LS3 and now LS4 that we got open world stuff that seemed polished, because Raids really blew HoT content out of the water before the reward/events overhauling.

    With that said, this game is sadly not fit at all for raiding. It is NOT guild oriented, it's much more of a plug and play game where you simply get on with it accompanying whoever is online at the moment, be it a friend or not. There is ironically no official Guild vs Guild mode in a game entitled "Guild Wars" and even though guilds and alliances were the core of the first game's social activities. And without pushing for guilds and tight-knit communities, you end up with a heavy pug mentality. This would be fine (and it is, in Fractals), but the 10-player requirement, the overall sentiment of bitterness emanating from people who left other MMOs precisely because they focused on Raids, and also the immense disparity between this mode and the rest of PvE, cause it to be a very bad experience to anyone who doesn't commit to the intense logistics of guilds and actually planning the Raids. And I wouldn't blame anyone that says "I love raiding but I hate waiting", even though I'd say they gotta just deal with it.

    To get into the point at last, Raids are practically the best they can be for this game, if it must have Raids to begin with. Whatever else Anet does is just going to bring in more drama involved with the "allocating more resources for Raids" part. It already takes a lot of work to create Raids in the current format (this one took what, 9 months? It's literally their baby, a beautiful one, but still), and Anet already puts it into a sufficiently unimportant place across their overall design plans (it ships "when it's ready" as opposite to Living World which is their main content and ships regularly). Development in LW episodes has been getting better and better anyway, and I think it will soon come to the point where you really won't be missing much from not playing Raids, other than key moments of coolness that are just not worth the hassle of logistics.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    I see raids sort of like SAB tribulation mode, as in "one wrong step" and you can start over. (Or multiple "wrong" steps rather)

    I can see why not everyone is interested in the whole trial and error die startover playstyle.

    That's a pretty bad comparison. SAB has baby, normal, and tribulation mode. Exactly what the thread is asking for raids.

    A tribulation mode for raids would be awesome, but we'll never get it if we don't get baby mode too.

    Thats because I'm not comparing the entirety of SAB and not even the entirety of tribulation mode and just one aspect of it.

    I guess it's too hard to understand the way I put it.

    I merely meant to say that within tribulation mode as well as within raids you need to have this attitude to learn through trial and error which things to do and which to avoid with a high amount of precision and memory.

    Also, whether you can fulfil a small easy role or not, as a team you need to succeed within that, I'm not comparing the teamaspect or personal prowess and more the attitude needed as a whole team in general.

    You wont like raids if you dont want to practice ... or learn alot through making those mistakes.

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