Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 105 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Yggdrasiln.5240 said:
    I main a heal firebrand/tank, but I've still found folks to be really, really dismissive or just rude. Last time I was trying to get into raiding I only had to mention what I was playing for guilds to ghost me. :expressionless:

    If they made an easy mode as proposed by most people on this thread (T1 fractal difficulty, doable by any kind of team) then you wouldn't need to play a support role anymore as only DPS roles would be used like the rest of the game.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    If they made an easy mode as proposed by most people on this thread (T1 fractal difficulty, doable by any kind of team) then you wouldn't need to play a support role anymore as only DPS roles would be used like the rest of the game.

    That probably would be the majority of runs, I don't disagree with you on that. However an easy mode still opens up the opportunity by making raiding more accessible in general. It may still be far from ideal, but it's at least something, and from there the hope is that more people are learning and able to do higher difficulty. I don't think giving raiding a bit of wiggle room is a bad idea? I don't think there's any easy solution, but it's worth looking for one.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Yggdrasiln.5240 said:
    I don't think giving raiding a bit of wiggle room is a bad idea?

    The rest of the thread disagrees which why it exists. You can find why it's a bad idea if you read some of the other pages but the most important reason I guess is developer resources required to plan and implement multiple difficulty settings. It was even given by developers as a reason so it must be important, they should know better. When it comes on what to cut in order to implement more difficulty modes for Raids is when things get hazy. And no, reducing the, already at a snail pace, Raid schedule is not an option.

    Another reason, also given by the developers themselves, is that they want Raids to be the ultimate challenge. If they add easier modes, they won't be the ultimate challenge anymore. It's already stretching the limits of "ultimate challenge" since CM Fractals exist.

    Further reason for not implementing one an easy mode is because it would split the community, nobody likes splitting communities. This is yet another argument given by the developers on why CM versions of Raids aren't repeatable. They are afraid it would cause segregation, similar reason why lower difficulty versions shouldn't be implemented either.

    Another reason is that an easy mode is worthless for training/learning purposes, it's like saying T1 Nightmare "trains" you for CM Nightmare (that's the difficulty difference between our current Raids and the most common easy mode proposal around here) You are naive if you think anyone would learn from this and then move on the higher difficulty, the gap would still be gigantic. It doesn't happen in Fractals, even though there are 5 difficulty settings, it won't happen in Raids.

    Finally there are reasons about exclusive rewards tied behind content. An easy mode giving out Legendary Armor or other achievements, or not. This is another huge part of the discussion over the 100 pages, although recently many on the side of an easy mode have accepted the idea of such a potential mode not giving access to the highest Raid rewards.

    The rest of the thread is repeating the above over and over in circles. I'm only giving you the reasons why implementing such a change is a bad idea, if you want further details read the rest of the thread, this is only a summary and honestly I don't want to go over all that again for the 20th time, especially with certain posters.

    PS: Did I miss anything?

  • XYLO.7031XYLO.7031 Member ✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    This is a heated topic, but let's have a serious discussion about it.


    Raids are not profitable for ArenaNet

    Let me say this clearly: I do raid, and I love challenging content, but I have many friends who are utter noobs, and can't learn to raid with what we have now. They simply can't. Don't start lecturing me about training groups and whatever. They can't.

    Then they don't deserve raiding.

    No one has entitlement to any game mode ever, specially hardcore players, who are pretty much those contributing the less to the game's finances, since they already have a lot of gold and convert it to gems instead of using real money. If we went by a simple metric of what is good for this game, raids are pretty much at the bottom. ArenaNet would make more money by just releasing open world zergfest content, than with raids. Raids are a special snowflake, and that's why it can't hold on forever, not like this.

    Hell, if tomorrow they scrapped raiding altogether, and started doing dungeons again, you think the happy people wouldn't outnumber the angry people? Think about it.

    Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders.


    So that's it. Feel free to vote in the poll, and whatever your opinion is, please express it civilly below.

    I voted and I quoted to discuss some points about this game and why it's special to the people who've been playing it long.

    If anyone remembers, this game was WITHOUT raids for a long time.

    Because of this, this MMO was the casual MMO.

    Compared to more hardcore MMOs, this game was easy to get into with its welcoming atmosphere.

    It was non-competitive and you could be as flexible as you want with your builds because you weren't going after a RAID wing and no one would tell you otherwise.

    The introduction of raids changed the game along with the expansions.

    Many of us in the community glossed over raids because we didn't start playing this game because of raids at all.
    It was the casual structure that kept us and continues to keep us, not raids.

    However, it brought in more competitive aspects that brought a whole new brand of MMOer to this game, the competitive raider.

    You competitive raiders deserve one another. Let there be a HARD mode for you all.

    Give the rest of us a ZERG mode (not easy). Same rules just lots more people.

    The reason why the majority of this game's content is enjoyable is the fact that many can partake. Remember, this game was originally structured on inclusiveness and NOT exclusivity.

    But for you minority hardcore raiders, be thankful for those of us that fund this game out of our pockets because we really don't make our lives here and just want to enjoy it as a casual game on the side.

    I grind and train enough in real life to build my career into what I want it to be; I can't do both in-game and rl.

    If you grind and train here to be the best you can be at raids, go for it. Just remember the game isn't centered around raids and us casuals are funding the game.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    This is a heated topic, but let's have a serious discussion about it.


    Raids are not profitable for ArenaNet

    Let me say this clearly: I do raid, and I love challenging content, but I have many friends who are utter noobs, and can't learn to raid with what we have now. They simply can't. Don't start lecturing me about training groups and whatever. They can't.

    Then they don't deserve raiding.

    No one has entitlement to any game mode ever, specially hardcore players,** who are pretty much those contributing the less to the game's finances, since they already have a lot of gold and convert it to gems instead of using real money. **If we went by a simple metric of what is good for this game, raids are pretty much at the bottom. ArenaNet would make more money by just releasing open world zergfest content, than with raids. Raids are a special snowflake, and that's why it can't hold on forever, not like this.

    Hell, if tomorrow they scrapped raiding altogether, and started doing dungeons again, you think the happy people wouldn't outnumber the angry people? Think about it.

    Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders.

    Also this is a hell of a claim to throw out there without any evidence whatsoever. I know that I play the game at an almost daily level, make tons of gold in game, and am also a complete whale when it comes to the cash shop. I know others who are as well. Most video game cash shops tend to have overall few people making purchases, and a small contingent making tons and tons of purchases.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @XYLO.7031 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    This is a heated topic, but let's have a serious discussion about it.


    Raids are not profitable for ArenaNet

    Let me say this clearly: I do raid, and I love challenging content, but I have many friends who are utter noobs, and can't learn to raid with what we have now. They simply can't. Don't start lecturing me about training groups and whatever. They can't.

    Then they don't deserve raiding.

    No one has entitlement to any game mode ever, specially hardcore players, who are pretty much those contributing the less to the game's finances, since they already have a lot of gold and convert it to gems instead of using real money. If we went by a simple metric of what is good for this game, raids are pretty much at the bottom. ArenaNet would make more money by just releasing open world zergfest content, than with raids. Raids are a special snowflake, and that's why it can't hold on forever, not like this.

    Hell, if tomorrow they scrapped raiding altogether, and started doing dungeons again, you think the happy people wouldn't outnumber the angry people? Think about it.

    Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders.


    So that's it. Feel free to vote in the poll, and whatever your opinion is, please express it civilly below.

    I voted and I quoted to discuss some points about this game and why it's special to the people who've been playing it long.

    If anyone remembers, this game was WITHOUT raids for a long time.

    Because of this, this MMO was the casual MMO.

    Compared to more hardcore MMOs, this game was easy to get into with its welcoming atmosphere.

    It was non-competitive and you could be as flexible as you want with your builds because you weren't going after a RAID wing and no one would tell you otherwise.

    The introduction of raids changed the game along with the expansions.

    Many of us in the community glossed over raids because we didn't start playing this game because of raids at all.
    It was the casual structure that kept us and continues to keep us, not raids.

    However, it brought in more competitive aspects that brought a whole new brand of MMOer to this game, the competitive raider.

    You competitive raiders deserve one another. Let there be a HARD mode for you all.

    Give the rest of us a ZERG mode (not easy). Same rules just lots more people.

    The reason why the majority of this game's content is enjoyable is the fact that many can partake. Remember, this game was originally structured on inclusiveness and NOT exclusivity.

    But for you minority hardcore raiders, be thankful for those of us that fund this game out of our pockets because we really don't make our lives here and just want to enjoy it as a casual game on the side.

    I grind and train enough in real life to build my career into what I want it to be; I can't do both in-game and rl.

    If you grind and train here to be the best you can be at raids, go for it. Just remember the game isn't centered around raids and us casuals are funding the game.

    Not sure who this is aimed at?

    Last time I checked, the vast developer resources go to Living World and open world content. Not sure 2 fractals and 1 raid per year even compare to the other content released (maybe against spvp and wvw).

    Are you arguing you want legendary armor from open world content? Because as of right now there is almost no way for Arenanet to devote more resources to open world content. It's already almost the only thing they develop, next to monetization items for the BLTC or reworking old content.

    That said, there is literally free legendary armor from spvp and wvw. Only takes some time and 0 skill.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @XYLO.7031 said:
    However, it brought in more competitive aspects that brought a whole new brand of MMOer to this game, the competitive raider.

    Most of the raiders have already been in the game before raids. The more competitive players ran dungeons & fractals either in speed clear guilds or at least in zerker gear. It was a wish of a non-negligible part of the community to get new challenging content because explorable paths in dungeons were meant to be hard but they failed to be that kind of content.
    It's even simple to recognise that most of the raiders are longterm players since most of the squads have a majority of raiders with 15k AP or more. A number you do not easily achieve by getting into the game only for raiding.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Just like now, people thinking that Raids would self fund when another of NcSofts games, Wildstar, which was marketed as a Hardcore raid game, just shut down. Truth is, hard content does not sell, that is why Riaders in this game need casuals to fund their content.

    For example, Wildstar had some of the best housing system in an mmorpg. I guess that so much asked for casual feature didn't save the game :(

    Nope.. not at all. Giving a bunch of pointless grind content o players that you treat like second class citizens while you dolt upon your raiders the best stuff ever, is not going to endear casuals to your game.

    This is a lesson GW2 should pay attention to as well, when it thinks it's putting out "Casual" content.

    Wildstar marketed as a hardcore raid game? Care to provide some advertisement for Wildstar were they ACTUALLY state that?

    Here you go.

    I hope my My point is made... but even if I posted other links, I going to guess you will just stick you head in the sand and ignore all that.. because it does not agree with what you want to be true.

    I can't find too many links.. because you know.. the game that was marketed as Hardcore died.. so they took down their own links. But you know.. it was common knowledge that it was a hardcore's game.

    The fact that you are even questioning this is laughable.

    And the fact that you think a "House" is casual.. is insulting. I mean like, really, dude, can you show you have no idea what a casual even is when you say things like "Oh it has housing it must be for casuals" like What.. really.. hardcore players don't use housing? Painfully laughable.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    Pics or it didn't happen

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    Mostly I think an easy mode would be fine to bring more enjoyment to the community due to the people who either don't have time to raid, can't learn to raid, or don't have the skills to raid. I understand that bringing the elite endgame content to the majority of the player base has issues like LFR on WoW, but I don't see it as much of an issue under a few conditions. The conditions that should be met to consider doing an easy mode and hard mode is that:
    1. Hard mode has to have very lucrative and exclusive rewards that easy mode can never and will never match in order for the elite player base to still feel rewarded in doing this content
    2. Easy mode has to be challenging enough that it makes strategy important to completion, much like how raids are now but with a removal of some mechanics or bosses altogether that make it easier to complete than hard mode.
    3. Possibly introduce a new tier of gear for hard mode raids that is superior to current ascended gear sets while keeping easy mode at the current level of gear
    This obviously means that some parts of the game would need to be tweaked, remade, coded differently, and that means time and money for ArenaNet. And I would honestly be fine if this feature was not introduced either way.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    The rest of the thread disagrees which why it exists. You can find why it's a bad idea if you read some of the other pages but the most important reason I guess is developer resources required to plan and implement multiple difficulty settings. It was even given by developers as a reason so it must be important, they should know better. When it comes on what to cut in order to implement more difficulty modes for Raids is when things get hazy. And no, reducing the, already at a snail pace, Raid schedule is not an option.

    Another reason, also given by the developers themselves, is that they want Raids to be the ultimate challenge. If they add easier modes, they won't be the ultimate challenge anymore. It's already stretching the limits of "ultimate challenge" since CM Fractals exist.

    Further reason for not implementing one an easy mode is because it would split the community, nobody likes splitting communities. This is yet another argument given by the developers on why CM versions of Raids aren't repeatable. They are afraid it would cause segregation, similar reason why lower difficulty versions shouldn't be implemented either.

    Another reason is that an easy mode is worthless for training/learning purposes, it's like saying T1 Nightmare "trains" you for CM Nightmare (that's the difficulty difference between our current Raids and the most common easy mode proposal around here) You are naive if you think anyone would learn from this and then move on the higher difficulty, the gap would still be gigantic. It doesn't happen in Fractals, even though there are 5 difficulty settings, it won't happen in Raids.

    Finally there are reasons about exclusive rewards tied behind content. An easy mode giving out Legendary Armor or other achievements, or not. This is another huge part of the discussion over the 100 pages, although recently many on the side of an easy mode have accepted the idea of such a potential mode not giving access to the highest Raid rewards.

    The rest of the thread is repeating the above over and over in circles. I'm only giving you the reasons why implementing such a change is a bad idea, if you want further details read the rest of the thread, this is only a summary and honestly I don't want to go over all that again for the 20th time, especially with certain posters.

    PS: Did I miss anything?

    No, I don't think you've missed anything from my reading anyways.

    I do agree, it's really not feasible for anet to allocate enough to raids to overhaul them to include new difficulties (as again, they have said themselves). I personally disagree that adding an easier version of something makes the harder version not as hard, especially if we consider them to be comparative to T1 vs CM fractals. By that comparison, they're almost entirely different experiences yeah? I don't see how creating an easier version of something takes away someone else's experience/fun personally. It just gives more options so more people can do their fun. Nobody likes splitting communities, but I think there's already a divide between the folks who do raids as they are currently and those who would do an easier version. I personally don't see how implementing an easier mode would divide the current community? That said I'm not part of the current community and admittedly I could be completely blind to how that would. I didn't say, "train" for clarification. The gap would still be gigantic, I agree, but accessibility can be a motivator to overcome that gap. I also agree that an easy mode shouldn't give the same rewards as a higher difficulty.

    Also, no, I'm not arguing that anet should magically find and allocate resources to make this happen. I just don't think it would be such a horrific thing if it were possible. As stated before though, I don't think there is an easy solution.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Jamie.4130 said:
    Mostly I think an easy mode would be fine to bring more enjoyment to the community due to the people who either don't have time to raid, can't learn to raid, or don't have the skills to raid. I understand that bringing the elite endgame content to the majority of the player base has issues like LFR on WoW, but I don't see it as much of an issue under a few conditions. The conditions that should be met to consider doing an easy mode and hard mode is that:
    1. Hard mode has to have very lucrative and exclusive rewards that easy mode can never and will never match in order for the elite player base to still feel rewarded in doing this content
    2. Easy mode has to be challenging enough that it makes strategy important to completion, much like how raids are now but with a removal of some mechanics or bosses altogether that make it easier to complete than hard mode.
    3. Possibly introduce a new tier of gear for hard mode raids that is superior to current ascended gear sets while keeping easy mode at the current level of gear
    This obviously means that some parts of the game would need to be tweaked, remade, coded differently, and that means time and money for ArenaNet. And I would honestly be fine if this feature was not introduced either way.

    Point 3 would be a ridiculous bad idea. Lack of gear grind was a big motivation to try this game out

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Yggdrasiln.5240 said:
    I don't think giving raiding a bit of wiggle room is a bad idea?

    Further reason for not implementing one an easy mode is because it would split the community, nobody likes splitting communities. This is yet another argument given by the developers on why CM versions of Raids aren't repeatable. They are afraid it would cause segregation, similar reason why lower difficulty versions shouldn't be implemented either.

    The thing with this statement is, it’s not really splitting the current raid community, what would happen is you would an influx of players that would be running into easy mode raids that isn’t currently raiding in the first place. If people left the normal mode to the easy mode they were never invested in normal mode to begin with.

    Another reason is that an easy mode is worthless for training/learning purposes, it's like saying T1 Nightmare "trains" you for CM Nightmare (that's the difficulty difference between our current Raids and the most common easy mode proposal around here) You are naive if you think anyone would learn from this and then move on the higher difficulty, the gap would still be gigantic. It doesn't happen in Fractals, even though there are 5 difficulty settings, it won't happen in Raids.

    Maybe it shouldn’t be training for normal, but a place where all the people with the grocery list of reasons they don’t Raid, can go.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Yggdrasiln.5240 said:
    I don't think giving raiding a bit of wiggle room is a bad idea?

    Maybe it shouldn’t be training for normal, but a place where all the people with the grocery list of reasons they don’t Raid, can go.

    why should anet use there ressources to make raids for people who don´t like raids? wouldn´t that be better spent on LS updates? don´t get me wrong here, mmo´s are like a themepark with various attractions for various people. not everyone needs to like the same rides. you still have dungeons and t1-t2 fractals if you are more into a chill expierence. (and obviously the easy encounters, which are already in the raids and can be done be people without any clue in a reasonable amount of time)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    I don't see anything in there about marketing the game for hardcore players and raids. So try again.

    I hope my My point is made... but even if I posted [other links]

    No your point wasn't made, you posted links about the raid team talking about raids. Not proving that the game was MARKETED for hardcore raiders. So try again and post links that actually prove your point. I'll be waiting for your links that prove your point.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there".

    Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    Pics or it didn't happen

    There were indeed a few people saying that it was p2w. Like there are a few people crying about p2w for almost any change in the game. Most people however preferred to concentrate on the real issue.

    The real issue which was never really addressed, by the way (new licenses do have non-rng options, but the original, problematic one was never changed).

    Still, concentrating on few outliers and trying to claim that was the core of the issue people had then is definitely intentionally misleading.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    I don't see anything in there about marketing the game for hardcore players and raids. So try again.

    I hope my My point is made... but even if I posted [other links]

    No your point wasn't made, you posted links about the raid team talking about raids. Not proving that the game was MARKETED for hardcore raiders. So try again and post links that actually prove your point. I'll be waiting for your links that prove your point.

    Oh, it was marketed. Unfortunately most of it is gone now, but if you dig deeper you will see things like their presence on pax east 2014, where all the devs were talking about were raids and PvP, and how hard and fabulous it's going to be (example: http://www.onrpg.com/news/editorial/wildstar-pax-east-2014-re-cap/).
    Seriously, things like the long and hard raid attunements were presented as a positive feature. And at the time, pretty much all you could hear about the game was about endgame content and how it was going to be harder than WoW.

    And i do distinctly remember one of their marketing taglines, which happened to be "Get ready for hardcore MMO with Wildstar". They did change their tune later on, and started mentioning things like housing and marketing more for casuals, but it was only after their initial post-launch fail.

    Seriously, it was a common knowledge before launch, it remained a common knowledge post launch, and it is a common knowledge now. You can keep ignoring that, but it won;t change the facts.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Unfortunately most of it is gone now, but if you dig deeper you will see things like their presence on pax east 2014, where all the devs were talking about were raids and PvP, and how hard and fabulous it's going to be (example: http://www.onrpg.com/news/editorial/wildstar-pax-east-2014-re-cap/).

    Bold for emphasis.

    Take a look at what Wildstar is or rather was:

    Reddit AMA on Wildstar:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/v29wc/iama_18_year_mmo_industry_vet_and_executive/

    A few reviews:
    https://www.polygon.com/2014/7/7/5879017/wildstar-review-pc
    https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/wildstar-review/1900-6415807/
    https://www.gamerevolution.com/review/64693-wildstar-review

    Nothing anywhere about this game created for Raids. This is the failed argument by those that hate raids that appeared after Wildstar failed. People that still keep on posting how a "game based on raids failed, so raids are bad" even though that's beyond a lie.

    And the honest question: did you play Wildstar? Because if you didn't, posting random tidbits doesn't prove anything. I did and this "the game was focused solely on Raids" is a blatant lie by the anti-raid crowd, it makes them feel good that a supposedly raid focused game failed.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    I don't see anything in there about marketing the game for hardcore players and raids. So try again.

    Just so we are clear.. You missed this under the first link: When I said "Here you Go"

    You totally did not see the:

    WildStarOnline Published on May 13, 2014
    Are you hardcore? WildStar raids are not for the faint of heart, and we're ready to prove that with this DevSpeak. Mega bosses and hostile environments are ready to destroy you in the most insane raids Nexus has ever known.

    Well if you missed that, I don't see a point in trying again, since you turned a total blind eye to what you were given.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there".

    Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people.

    Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion..

    But just so we are clear, they did not change anything, they simply said, "We need to do this to make money,.. how would you like to be fleeced?" and after some consideration, they went with the High Dollar packs with Little to no RNG. Which is what Mount Skins are at now.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    Pics or it didn't happen

    Given @maddoctor.2738 responses. pics don't work either.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there".

    Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people.

    Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion..

    But just so we are clear, they did not change anything, they simply said, "We need to do this to make money,.. how would you like to be fleeced?" and after some consideration, they went with the High Dollar packs with Little to no RNG. Which is what Mount Skins are at now.

    and none of any of that is pay to win.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Well if you missed that, I don't see a point in trying again, since you turned a total blind eye to what you were given.

    I guess you missed the release trailer and the developer ama that I posted and has nothing about Wildstar = hardcore Raids.
    You give me a video titled: "WildStar DevSpeak: Raids" I didn't miss it, I already know about that video.
    I wonder why in the world in a video that covers the subject of raids, they talk about raids.... did they say anything about Raids being the only thing in Wildstar? No. Did they say that Raids will be the FOCUS of Wildstar (as you claim)? No.
    Now I'm gonna make an honest question, did you actually watch the video you yourself posted? Did you at least read the title of the video you posted?

    It's like watching the trailer for Raids of GW2 and calling the game "all about hardcore Raids". Here a video like the one you posted but this time for GW2:

    As I said, try again by posting something, anything, that can prove your claims. You haven't done so yet.

    Notice the similarities:
    "Are you hardcore? WildStar raids are not for the faint of heart"
    "They are 10-player, instanced content that will introduce very challenging bosses, epic encounters, and more!"

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there".

    Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people.

    Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion..

    But just so we are clear, they did not change anything, they simply said, "We need to do this to make money,.. how would you like to be fleeced?" and after some consideration, they went with the High Dollar packs with Little to no RNG. Which is what Mount Skins are at now.

    and none of any of that is pay to win.

    I agree totally.. didn't stop people from calling it such tho.

    (Which was my whole point. in case you missed that)

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Notice the similarities:
    "Are you hardcore? WildStar raids are not for the faint of heart"
    "They are 10-player, instanced content that will introduce very challenging bosses, epic encounters, and more!"

    Yes.. I did notice that.. similarity between Wildstar and HoT.

    I also noticed Anet going "Oh kitten, we are sorry about that stupid Hardcore thing we tried, silly us,, here is a whole expansion of casual friendly stuff for you to enjoy called PoF, please forgive our stupid mistake"

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there".

    Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people.

    Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion..

    But just so we are clear, they did not change anything, they simply said, "We need to do this to make money,.. how would you like to be fleeced?" and after some consideration, they went with the High Dollar packs with Little to no RNG. Which is what Mount Skins are at now.

    and none of any of that is pay to win.

    I agree totally.. didn't stop people from calling it such tho.

    (Which was my whole point. in case you missed that)

    Which you have no yet in any way proven, not even by basic logic which I had pointed out.

    What did you say earlier?

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion..

    That's "the pot calling the kettle black" right there.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    So it's your word against mine and most other peoples who have posted so far since we were "all there".

    Well that and the logical fallacy that mounts skins have any bearing on any type of "winning" as well as that the, by now remedied, rng acquisition method actually would make sense logically to have aggravated people.

    Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion..

    But just so we are clear, they did not change anything, they simply said, "We need to do this to make money,.. how would you like to be fleeced?" and after some consideration, they went with the High Dollar packs with Little to no RNG. Which is what Mount Skins are at now.

    and none of any of that is pay to win.

    I agree totally.. didn't stop people from calling it such tho.

    (Which was my whole point. in case you missed that)

    Which you have no yet in any way proven, not even by basic logic which I had pointed out.

    What did you say earlier?

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Given that some people have shown to have very tinted glasses in this discussion..

    That's "the pot calling the kettle black" right there.

    This whole topic has been pots and kettles.. did you just get that now?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    I apparently lost it but how does 1 or 2 people calling mountadoption licenses p2w relate to this topic?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Notice the similarities:
    "Are you hardcore? WildStar raids are not for the faint of heart"
    "They are 10-player, instanced content that will introduce very challenging bosses, epic encounters, and more!"

    Yes.. I did notice that.. similarity between Wildstar and HoT.

    I also noticed Anet going "Oh kitten, we are sorry about that stupid Hardcore thing we tried, silly us,, here is a whole expansion of casual friendly stuff for you to enjoy called PoF, please forgive our stupid mistake"

    Cause they aren't developing pvp (2v2) new raids etc. And there where no negative reactions to pof absolutely.

    It's easy to miss the things you don't want to see I guess.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    @yann.1946 said:
    I apparently lost it but how does 1 or 2 people calling mountadoption licenses p2w relate to this topic?

    Glad you asked. See, the idea here is "Are Raids Profitable", which is a point regarding their access, and keeping them Niche content.

    The thing here is that Anet uses a system where they sell unrelated cosmetic items and various consumables/bank space in the store and then use the sales money from those items to fund development of other parts of the game.

    This making it so that is is very hard to track what retains players and keeps sales up. IE: It's near impossible to see what content is in fact profitable.

    Now I argued that this is the worst way to fund game development, if they sold additional content individually they would know what sells among their population and could focus on that. To understand this, they already have several existing dungeons in the core game of GW2, all linked to the Personal Story. These would remain free and part of the core game, then they would then make additional Dungeons and sell them Individually. if they sold well enough (IE: Self funded their own development) they would make and sell more of them.

    There was a bit of dissent on this topic and mu opponents brought up the outrage regarding Mount Skin, and the like (IE: Players don't like spending money. and wanty everything for free. imagine that).. but, if they sold content directly, they would not need to be as aggressive in how they sold cosmetics in the store, in fact, they could remove store cosmetics from the game overall, and just put them directly in the Content itself, so players could buy say a World Map, or a Dungeon, or Fractal Map, that unlocked a new skin for each mount, or a special custom weapon set, maybe a unique mask style, etc.. Thus making it so players had to play the game for their pretty items, and not just open their wallets.

    But.. you know.. if I said anything there are a whole group of people on this forum that would argue and disagree with me no matter what.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I also noticed Anet going "Oh kitten, we are sorry about that stupid Hardcore thing we tried, silly us,, here is a whole expansion of casual friendly stuff for you to enjoy called PoF, please forgive our stupid mistake"

    Cause they stopped developing Raids... PoF having more casual friend stuff to enjoy is arguable.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I also noticed Anet going "Oh kitten, we are sorry about that stupid Hardcore thing we tried, silly us,, here is a whole expansion of casual friendly stuff for you to enjoy called PoF, please forgive our stupid mistake"

    Cause they stopped developing Raids... PoF having more casual friend stuff to enjoy is arguable.

    Given you think "Housing" is casual content, it's not a discussion I would have with you about what is casual friendly content.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Notice the similarities:
    "Are you hardcore? WildStar raids are not for the faint of heart"
    "They are 10-player, instanced content that will introduce very challenging bosses, epic encounters, and more!"

    Yes.. I did notice that.. similarity between Wildstar and HoT.

    I also noticed Anet going "Oh kitten, we are sorry about that stupid Hardcore thing we tried, silly us,, here is a whole expansion of casual friendly stuff for you to enjoy called PoF, please forgive our stupid mistake"

    Cause they aren't developing pvp (2v2) new raids etc. And there where no negative reactions to pof absolutely.

    It's easy to miss the things you don't want to see I guess.

    Very true, I noticed a lot of people making complainants about PoF, in fact.. maybe more then fussed about HoT, but after HoT their numbers tanked like a lead balloon, and now after PoF the numbers are coming back, as such the people that loved HoT and hated PoF are not really their profit demographic. Sometimes you gotta pick your battles, and when it comes to MMO's, if you want to stay alive, you side with the people that are willing to pay for their hobby.

    Keep in mind, Casuals are not going to come to the forms in mass to make demands, they are casual simply because they do not have that kind of time to waste on a game, they will simply quietly stop playing and move on. Anet and many other developers would do well to understand that.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    I apparently lost it but how does 1 or 2 people calling mountadoption licenses p2w relate to this topic?

    Glad you asked. See, the idea here is "Are Raids Profitable", which is a point regarding their access, and keeping them Niche content.

    The thing here is that Anet uses a system where they sell unrelated cosmetic items and various consumables/bank space in the store and then use the sales money from those items to fund development of other parts of the game.

    This making it so that is is very hard to track what retains players and keeps sales up. IE: It's near impossible to see what content is in fact profitable.

    Now I argued that this is the worst way to fund game development, if they sold additional content individually they would know what sells among their population and could focus on that. To understand this, they already have several existing dungeons in the core game of GW2, all linked to the Personal Story. These would remain free and part of the core game, then they would then make additional Dungeons and sell them Individually. if they sold well enough (IE: Self funded their own development) they would make and sell more of them.

    There was a bit of dissent on this topic and mu opponents brought up the outrage regarding Mount Skin, and the like (IE: Players don't like spending money. and wanty everything for free. imagine that).. but, if they sold content directly, they would not need to be as aggressive in how they sold cosmetics in the store, in fact, they could remove store cosmetics from the game overall, and just put them directly in the Content itself, so players could buy say a World Map, or a Dungeon, or Fractal Map, that unlocked a new skin for each mount, or a special custom weapon set, maybe a unique mask style, etc.. Thus making it so players had to play the game for their pretty items, and not just open their wallets.

    But.. you know.. if I said anything there are a whole group of people on this forum that would argue and disagree with me no matter what.

    I find it interesting you look at people as opponents. I'm still not sure what the p2w argument of some person on mountgate is relevent to this tho?

    On a sidenote do you really think people are arguing against you because they want to argue against you?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I also noticed Anet going "Oh kitten, we are sorry about that stupid Hardcore thing we tried, silly us,, here is a whole expansion of casual friendly stuff for you to enjoy called PoF, please forgive our stupid mistake"

    Cause they stopped developing Raids... PoF having more casual friend stuff to enjoy is arguable.

    Given you think "Housing" is casual content, it's not a discussion I would have with you about what is casual friendly content.

    Housing is by definition casual content since it doesn't take any amount of skill neither requires much effort (unless it's like GW2 guild halls maybe).

    Now since Anet never stopped developing anything that was given in HoT and at the same time made things worse in PoF in other areas (meta events) the big question is which expansion is more successful. The "hardcore" one or the "casual" one. And note those are your definitions because anyone that calls the two expansions that, probably has no clue what those two words mean.

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Very true, I noticed a lot of people making complainants about PoF, in fact.. maybe more then fussed about HoT, but after HoT their numbers tanked like a lead balloon, and now after PoF the numbers are coming back, as such the people that loved HoT and hated PoF are not really their profit demographic. Sometimes you gotta pick your battles, and when it comes to MMO's, if you want to stay alive, you side with the people that are willing to pay for their hobby.

    I wonder how much of the difference is made by Mount Skins.... those sell really well, HoT had nothing similar to sell and this has absolutely nothing to do with content or difficulty.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2018

    @yann.1946 said:
    On a sidenote do you really think people are arguing against you because they want to argue against you?

    Absolutely.

    @yann.1946 said:
    I'm still not sure what the p2w argument of some person on mountgate is relevent to this tho?

    Oh .. yah.. that.. well a bit back.. during the idea selling DLC, I made a note that people calling Mountgate P2W made me laugh... and you know.. people just HAD to disagree with me. .. and lo here we are.

    Which kinda answers your above question.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
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  • We need both easy and hard modes

    This was an interesting thread to read, and in all honesty I think the reason why fractals are so loved in the community is because they have a tier grouping. So people with low AR can't run with someone with high AR. I kind of like that because they have to work their way up the ladder. Kind of like how PvP doesn't allow people to do ranked matches until they reach rank 20. This is fair and it allows people to understand mechanics so we don't have people showing up with low stats and getting everyone to wipe. I would like to see stuff like a rating system for players. I have been in LFG raids where a newly boosted players will hop into raiding first thing they do and they have no idea how abilities, specs, or mechanics work.** Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum. ** These rankings will be like WvW in a way so if you are gone from the game for like a year the game will tick down slightly. Not a lot, but slightly. That way in matchmaking for raiding you will have people with high ratings and low ratings. Also, yes I see this can be a problem and can allow elitists single out players, which is why it would be nice if they had various versions of raiding. So you can have raiding separate into two groups Normal which is like what we have now, but has some slight instructional methods to it and Godhood or Legendary where people can do raiding, but without the easy boss events that occur which can frustrate players who want to be challenged.

    For those who don't want raiding to change. Ok fine, lets have a special wing put in that can show people how to raid and mechanics of basic raiding. Kind of like a tutorial much like story missions can have when you are starting as a noob. When you do this it can have a 'fake' boss that can demonstrate various attacks and the importance of various positions and roles to take. You can specialize it by class too and have a fun story behind each invidividual class.

    Though in all honesty other areas of the game need heavy improvement and they need to work there instead. This game has its issues like most games and everyone has their own opinion of how things should go. Honestly, I find raiding enjoyable, but only if I have a good krewe or team.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

    This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

    For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

    Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

    Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

    Pics or it didn't happen

    Given @maddoctor.2738 responses. pics don't work either.

    Show me where they or anyone else calls cosmetic skins Pay to Win.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion.

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