Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 7 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Nope, that's wrong. Quality content (which raids are) will make players play it once. Replayability in PvE needs rewards.

    There is a big difference between using rewards to keep people playing the content, and using them to lure people into the content. The former is completely normal and okay, but that's not what we see with raids.

    You're speaking as if there is only one type of players and they are all either in for the content or the rewards. It's an oversimplification and it misses the point completely.

    There will be always those who flock to rewards. Remember Tarir when multiloot used to be a thing? There were 9-10 maps successfully done in prime times easily. How many are there now, 3? Is the content bad? No, it is still quality content, as it has always been. Quality and rewards are both factors, for everyone. Some lean toward one, some lean toward the other and that's personal differences.

    The thing with raids is, there is a higher barrier of entry, on two separate accounts. First the number of players. It's easier to gather 5 than it is to gather 10. Second, the difficulty. Rewards are needed to, in your words, "lure" players in because of this barrier. It would otherwise stop too many players and the game mode will fail to even start. This is another factor you overlook.

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Your raid time is over cause we only getting yellow rares in pve, we have had enough of sitting on the sidelines while you talk about the wing of the week. Take a week to beat a boss, no uh uh, shouldnt take more than 10-15minutes. Am I talking like an adult as you put it Turin, well yes I am cause I am speaking with authority. The garbage mechanics from raids need to go bye bye, NOW.

    Sure, go ahead and make a game without mechanics. I'll just grab my popcorn and watch it flop. :lol:

  • Lambros Augustus.6594Lambros Augustus.6594 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Nope, that's wrong. Quality content (which raids are) will make players play it once. Replayability in PvE needs rewards.

    There is a big difference between using rewards to keep people playing the content, and using them to lure people into the content. The former is completely normal and okay, but that's not what we see with raids.

    You're speaking as if there is only one type of players and they are all either in for the content or the rewards. It's an oversimplification and it misses the point completely.

    There will be always those who flock to rewards. Remember Tarir when multiloot used to be a thing? There were 9-10 maps successfully done in prime times easily. How many are there now, 3? Is the content bad? No, it is still quality content, as it has always been. Quality and rewards are both factors, for everyone. Some lean toward one, some lean toward the other and that's personal differences.

    The thing with raids is, there is a higher barrier of entry, on two separate accounts. First the number of players. It's easier to gather 5 than it is to gather 10. Second, the difficulty. Rewards are needed to, in your words, "lure" players in because of this barrier. It would otherwise stop too many players and the game mode will fail to even start. This is another factor you overlook.

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Your raid time is over cause we only getting yellow rares in pve, we have had enough of sitting on the sidelines while you talk about the wing of the week. Take a week to beat a boss, no uh uh, shouldnt take more than 10-15minutes. Am I talking like an adult as you put it Turin, well yes I am cause I am speaking with authority. The garbage mechanics from raids need to go bye bye, NOW.

    Sure, go ahead and make a game without mechanics. I'll just grab my popcorn and watch it flop. :lol:

    Flop like Fifa Ultimate Team and Candy Crush. :D

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Nope, that's wrong. Quality content (which raids are) will make players play it once. Replayability in PvE needs rewards.

    There is a big difference between using rewards to keep people playing the content, and using them to lure people into the content. The former is completely normal and okay, but that's not what we see with raids.

    You're speaking as if there is only one type of players and they are all either in for the content or the rewards. It's an oversimplification and it misses the point completely.

    There will be always those who flock to rewards. Remember Tarir when multiloot used to be a thing? There were 9-10 maps successfully done in prime times easily. How many are there now, 3? Is the content bad? No, it is still quality content, as it has always been. Quality and rewards are both factors, for everyone. Some lean toward one, some lean toward the other and that's personal differences.

    The thing with raids is, there is a higher barrier of entry, on two separate accounts. First the number of players. It's easier to gather 5 than it is to gather 10. Second, the difficulty. Rewards are needed to, in your words, "lure" players in because of this barrier. It would otherwise stop too many players and the game mode will fail to even start. This is another factor you overlook.

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Your raid time is over cause we only getting yellow rares in pve, we have had enough of sitting on the sidelines while you talk about the wing of the week. Take a week to beat a boss, no uh uh, shouldnt take more than 10-15minutes. Am I talking like an adult as you put it Turin, well yes I am cause I am speaking with authority. The garbage mechanics from raids need to go bye bye, NOW.

    Sure, go ahead and make a game without mechanics. I'll just grab my popcorn and watch it flop. :lol:

    Flop like Fifa Ultimate Team and Candy Crush. :D

    Did you really just advertise for 2 of the most horrific micro-transactions invested games/game modes in the industry?

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-03-01-eas-ultimate-team-now-worth-USD800-million-annually

    https://venturebeat.com/2017/08/03/kings-player-numbers-are-down-but-theyre-spending-more-in-candy-crush-and-other-games/

    Very bold after the entire mount drama. I would not have gone there with a mile long stick.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2017
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Your raid time is over cause we only getting yellow rares in pve, we have had enough of sitting on the sidelines while you talk about the wing of the week. Take a week to beat a boss, no uh uh, shouldnt take more than 10-15minutes. Am I talking like an adult as you put it Turin, well yes I am cause I am speaking with authority. The garbage mechanics from raids need to go bye bye, NOW.

    Only yellow rares?

    This is from another thread and I'm going to repost this because posts like this make zero sense:

    Open World PVE got 6 armor sets, 6 weapon sets, +18 elite specialization weapons, +lots of other individual weapon and armor pieces.
    Open World PVE always has the most attention and gets everything while the rest of the game gets scraps.

    Open world PVE is the only way to unlock the mastery abilities, mounts, elite specialization unlocks plus all the crafting materials (that are needed in crafting anything).
    In contrast, Raids got a legendary ring and what 3 or 4 new weapon skins?

    Yes open world pve is on the sidelines and only gets yellow rares while Raids get all the good things... /sarcasm
    I wasn't going to post in this thread because everything that was needed to be said about the topic was done in a billion other threads before and now everyone resorts in repeating the same arguments over and over but posts like this deserve an answer to bring their posters back to reality.

  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    i go where i need to go to get results.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    i go where i need to go to get results.

    Okay, so how exactly do you think arenanet should change raids in order to incentivise players to spend money?

    They could offer different pay to win or pay to speed up packages. Maybe an easy mode buff which reduces all damage taken in raids for 1 week?

    That's exactlt how your mentioned games make their money.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    i go where i need to go to get results.

    Okay, so how exactly do you think arenanet should change raids in order to incentivise players to spend money?

    LOL, at this point, I think things are beyond that. what is done is done. I believe for the most part, the regulars who are gonna raid, are doing raids, and those that are not, have accepted that, but like anything, when there is no progression, the game becomes more a fling then an investment, and lets be real.. no one spends money on a fling. So if they plan to make money off raids, it's going to come from you and yours.

  • FOX.3582FOX.3582 Member ✭✭✭

    Raids should've never been in this game in the first place. This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual. From a business perspective; changing something that works fine doesn’t need change. I am so happy that I don’t own this game/company, cause people will leave more and more. For noobs this game is too hard and for hardcore players this game is too easy. I clear every wing my self almost every week. Let me tell you one thing, there is no “hard” raid boss in this game.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

  • FOX.3582FOX.3582 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    You really think that do you?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @FOX.3582 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    You really think that do you?

    I do and I find it really sad that the initial perception of this game was of being an exciting, action/skill-based mmorpg with some hard/challenging content to put that combat system to good use. And after some years it turned into a "this is a very easy/casual" mmorpg. I know the game had casual features since its release, no kill stealing, no shared resource nodes, no forced grouping in the open world, no gear treadmill, no subscription and so on, but the game always had content to put its own combat system to good use. At least until the community figured ways of bypassing mechanics, then the developers found ways to challenge players in different ways and the cycle was on.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @FOX.3582 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    You really think that do you?

    Dungeons, Fractals, no open world meta bosses (hence why people were circle farming Orr in magic find gear), you are out of touch with what this game was at launch. The game always was designed to have challenging content (and dungeons were insanely hard initially not to mention high tier fractals).

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    I recall Ascalon Catacombs taking me 3 hours at launch, it a was a tough beast that’s to be sure. Maybe it felt harder since it was numero uno.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    It was almost a different game altogether when you think about it. The systems that they placed in the game over the years.
    Revenue is on the decline which is the natural life cycle of an mmo. Expansions bring in the bigger sky high stacks in terms lump sum dollars. Advising of harder content probably wouldn’t attract many players, I’m sure as they have had their fill and moved on.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    It was almost a different game altogether when you think about it. The systems that they placed in the game over the years.
    Revenue is on the decline which is the natural life cycle of an mmo. Expansions bring in the bigger sky high stacks in terms lump sum dollars. Advising of harder content probably wouldn’t attract many players, I’m sure as they have had their fill and moved on.

    In my opinion before the death of Scarlet the game was far better than after her death.
    Heart of Thorns was an attempt to bring back the good old days, but those one of and a half years between Scarlet's death and the release of the expansion (March 2014 -> October 2015), probably did way more damage to the game than expected. And this perception of "easy/casual" was engraved into the thoughts of many players.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017
    We need both easy and hard modes

    The content drought on both ends probably didn’t help much either. Essentially just doing the same content over and over again.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    The content drought on both ends probably didn’t help much either. Essentially just doing the same content over and over again.

    The entire Season 2 was nothing but endless brain-dead farming in Dry Top and Silverwastes. The only few sane parts were the story instances with some really challenging and exciting achievements, but that wasn't content to last because there was nothing repeatable there. Not to mention those 2 farm zones were nothing like Battle for LA, and the big boss Vinewrath was nothing like the Marionette. Season 2 was a huge leap backwards in terms of content, yes it was fun that it was permanent but that was it's one saving feature. But the most important failure is how it changed player perception of the game.

    Of course player perception started changing since the first Queen's Jubilee in August 2013, with the addition of blob content, where the "best build" stopped being the one that completes the content best, the one that deals the most damage, deals with mechanics better or anything of the sort. The "best build" became the one with an auto-attack skill that hits in a wide area of effect allowing it to tag as many mobs as possible. Sending the wonderful active combat system of the game to the trash can.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Lambros Augustus.6594 said:
    Your raid time is over cause we only getting yellow rares in pve, we have had enough of sitting on the sidelines while you talk about the wing of the week. Take a week to beat a boss, no uh uh, shouldnt take more than 10-15minutes. Am I talking like an adult as you put it Turin, well yes I am cause I am speaking with authority. The garbage mechanics from raids need to go bye bye, NOW.

    No actually you are not acting like an adult. And the fact that you think that speaking with authority makes you an adult is definitely a bad sign. I am not speaking with any authority. I just think that you are missing the big picture since you just want instant gratification as you describe.

    You are basically saying that since you do not like or play the game mode it has to chance drastically without even considering that fact that other players actually like the mode. You pretend to be treated unfair cause you have to suffer through the open world rewards, when its the best supported game mode both in terms of content and skins and general rewards (and with very good reason). That is like Mr. Creosote complaining that he does not have enough food.

    You complain about being looked out of raids that are content to play and you want to play them cause you are bored with the rest of the game and then you ask for bosses you can kill in 10-15 minutes at first try. How is that more engaging and lasting content than what you are already bored with? You joked about it but you actually seem to want an MMORPG like candy crush.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    If player mentality changed Anet has to adapt to that, don't they? We can say all day how better it was when people were doing dungeons as the one endgame content and most players actually cared about challenge but doesn't matter if most players that are here now disagree with it.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    If player mentality changed Anet has to adapt to that, don't they? We can say all day how better it was when people were doing dungeons as the one endgame content and most players actually cared about challenge but doesn't matter if most players that are here now disagree with it.

    People dont want too play for challenge anymore they want free easy stuff with no challenge (sadly how will anyone ever improve ore learn if you dont have too)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    If player mentality changed Anet has to adapt to that, don't they? We can say all day how better it was when people were doing dungeons as the one endgame content and most players actually cared about challenge but doesn't matter if most players that are here now disagree with it.

    Not really, they can always bring back the vast amounts of players that they lost by adding content that those players like, expected to be in the game, found none, got bored and left. The big question is how deep the horrible stigma of "this is an easy/casual game" is in the minds of the gaming community and if they can reverse it and bring their players back, without losing their current ones in the process. I think with Season 3 and onward there has been great effort in releasing content to satisfy a vast array of interests, bringing fractals back, adding a lot of new maps are all steps towards making the game more far reaching.
    A varied game is a good game.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FOX.3582 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    You really think that do you?

    As sad as it is, they do. They think back to a time when they had bad builds, bad gear, and were clueless noobs and remember fondly through rose colored glasses the challenge this game was for them. But I agree with you, No one came to GW2 looking for challenge.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    You really think that do you?

    As sad as it is, they do. They think back to a time when they had bad builds, bad gear, and were clueless noobs and remember fondly through rose colored glasses the challenge this game was for them.

    So... basically exactly like the people unhappy with raids now?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    You really think that do you?

    As sad as it is, they do. They think back to a time when they had bad builds, bad gear, and were clueless noobs and remember fondly through rose colored glasses the challenge this game was for them.

    So... basically exactly like the people unhappy with raids now?

    No... the people who think raids area bad addition to this game never had any delusions about what this game was supposed to be when we came here.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    I was going to post something on topic, but figured it would be better to spout psychobabble about the people that disagree with me to debase them.. NAHH just kidding.

    Back on topic.

    So it begins.

    So taking bets on how long it takes before Anet caves.

  • We need both easy and hard modes

    I just want to experience raids not waiting simulator.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FOX.3582 said:
    This game was bought and sold as very easy and very casual.

    Actually it wasn't and for more than a year after release it didn't have open world farming content. Most of the content was inside instances with escalating difficulty, and it had the highest revenue possible. Then the game moved to easy/casual mode open world farming. We all see the results of that move.

    You really think that do you?

    As sad as it is, they do. They think back to a time when they had bad builds, bad gear, and were clueless noobs and remember fondly through rose colored glasses the challenge this game was for them. But I agree with you, No one came to GW2 looking for challenge.

    Which is why open world content exists.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I was going to post something on topic, but figured it would be better to spout psychobabble about the people that disagree with me to debase them.. NAHH just kidding.

    Back on topic.

    So it begins.

    So taking bets on how long it takes before Anet caves.

    Why would Anet cave ? Even in GW1 you never had a treadmill in terms of power.

    • They made Ascended.
    • They made Fracatls
    • They made Raids
    • They made HoT

    I could go on.. but I hope my point has been made.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I was going to post something on topic, but figured it would be better to spout psychobabble about the people that disagree with me to debase them.. NAHH just kidding.

    Back on topic.

    So it begins.

    So taking bets on how long it takes before Anet caves.

    Why would Anet cave ? Even in GW1 you never had a treadmill in terms of power.

    • They made Ascended.
    • They made Fracatls
    • They made Raids
    • They made HoT

    I could go on.. but I hope my point has been made.

    All of which is casual content compared to the rest of the MMO genre as whole.
    Gw2 Does not exist in a vacuum it is currently competing with other mmo's and in every single category that you posted GW2 is the easiest in. If your going to debate difficulty of the content of the game you cannot compare it to the game itself you have to compare it to other similar games. This notion that Anet walked away from there philosophy is wrong.

    Holy Trinity still optional.
    You can clear Raids with Sub optimal Specs.
    You can clear t4's with any spec.
    HoT was promptly nerfed out of any form of real difficulty it had very very quickly.
    Ascended is an a minor increases in stats not enough to make it mandatory for anything outside of fractal t4s.

    In every category you have posted guildwars 2 is still VERY VERY forgiving compared to its competitors like FF14, WoW, Tera, Wildstar etc.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I was going to post something on topic, but figured it would be better to spout psychobabble about the people that disagree with me to debase them.. NAHH just kidding.

    Back on topic.

    So it begins.

    So taking bets on how long it takes before Anet caves.

    Why would Anet cave ? Even in GW1 you never had a treadmill in terms of power.

    • They made Ascended.
    • They made Fracatls
    • They made Raids
    • They made HoT

    I could go on.. but I hope my point has been made.

    All of which is casual content compared to the rest of the MMO genre as whole.
    Gw2 Does not exist in a vacuum it is currently competing with other mmo's and in every single category that you posted GW2 is the easiest in.

    I have to agree with you.. which is why I cannot fathom anyone coming to GW2 to ask for challenge.. when it is waiting out there for you in abundance among an endlss legion of other MMO's , why that is about as stupid as asking for a deep end in the kiddie pool.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I was going to post something on topic, but figured it would be better to spout psychobabble about the people that disagree with me to debase them.. NAHH just kidding.

    Back on topic.

    So it begins.

    So taking bets on how long it takes before Anet caves.

    Why would Anet cave ? Even in GW1 you never had a treadmill in terms of power.

    • They made Ascended.
    • They made Fracatls
    • They made Raids
    • They made HoT

    I could go on.. but I hope my point has been made.

    All of which is casual content compared to the rest of the MMO genre as whole.
    Gw2 Does not exist in a vacuum it is currently competing with other mmo's and in every single category that you posted GW2 is the easiest in.

    I have to agree with you.. which is why I cannot fathom anyone coming to GW2 to ask for challenge.. when it is waiting out there for you in abundance among an endlss legion of other MMO's , why that is about as stupid as asking for a deep end in the kiddie pool.

    Its because the game engine is so nice.
    There are a lot "hardcore" players like my self here because of the engine alot, i love the combo fields, i love the classes, i love the class diversity in this game its something that more traditional mmos lack.

    So ofcourse there will be guys like me asking for a little slice of the game to be catered to us and so far Anet has not caved, just just give us little carrots along the way like cms and legendaries and time gate the living hell out of them. But to be honest theres a lot room to add more difficulty because as of now i truely believe half the game doesn't know what a combo field is and how to utilize one, and when one a core game mechanics that you used to sell the game at launch is not being used often or known of we have issues.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    No one really goes to an MMORPG for Challenge alone anymore because of the design direction most of them have taken.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    No one really goes to an MMORPG for Challenge alone anymore because of the design direction most of them have taken.

    Might want to look into Pantheon.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I was going to post something on topic, but figured it would be better to spout psychobabble about the people that disagree with me to debase them.. NAHH just kidding.

    Back on topic.

    So it begins.

    So taking bets on how long it takes before Anet caves.

    Why would Anet cave ? Even in GW1 you never had a treadmill in terms of power.

    • They made Ascended.
    • They made Fracatls
    • They made Raids
    • They made HoT

    I could go on.. but I hope my point has been made.

    So what ? Every fractals are accessible at tier one without requiring ascended.
    Ascended was introduced to the game like what, 3 months after the initial release of the game and hasn't received any upgrade ever since.
    HoT content (story wise and much more with how open world content is implemented in the game) can be beaten with full exotics.
    The only hard part is raids but guess what, you can get ready for it gear wise through open world.

    I am sorry, my point still stands as well. If I were to take a break for one year, the gear that I have now would still be relevant next year. Good luck doing that in any other (in)famous MMO.

    This game offers skill(ed) based content.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    I'm still scratching my head on the initial premise the OP suggests that Raids aren't profitable, if I may steer the conversation to the topic once more.

    I'm exceptionally dubious of their claims since there's still no true, final exact numbers. Just a whole lot of subjective speculation, hyperbole, inferences and so forth.

    It's really quite simple, Arenanet makes changes when the numbers aren't hitting expectations. Even if their expectations for raid content are intentionally set to a fairly low percent of the whole playerbase due to difficulty and other factors, despite the feelings that there should be easier modes to raiding to facilitate more 'raiders', if they hit the expectations or are doing better than those numbers they will keep the course.

    Doesn't matter what subjective input you have such as comparing to other MMO Raiding, or balance or so forth. If it gets played enough to be worthy content, there won't be anything done. They are listening to our feedback given some of the dev responses, and with the recent Hall of Chains showing off a much more impressive difficulty curve not seen in the game yet I believe the devs are working with the prospect of continuing to challenge the playerbase that is interested in raiding continued harder content.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    If player mentality changed Anet has to adapt to that, don't they? We can say all day how better it was when people were doing dungeons as the one endgame content and most players actually cared about challenge but doesn't matter if most players that are here now disagree with it.

    I seriously doubt there was even a single moment where most players in gw2 wanted to have bigger challenge.

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    No one really goes to an MMORPG for Challenge alone anymore because of the design direction most of them have taken.

    If by "design decision" you mean "wanting to have big number of players" then you're right. People stopped going to MMOs for challenge about the same time people started going to MMOs.

    @Sykper.6583 said:
    It's really quite simple, Arenanet makes changes when the numbers aren't hitting expectations. Even if their expectations for raid content are intentionally set to a fairly low percent of the whole playerbase due to difficulty and other factors, despite the feelings that there should be easier modes to raiding to facilitate more 'raiders', if they hit the expectations or are doing better than those numbers they will keep the course.

    Trying to introduce new shinies to bring new people in suggets that those numbers might not be as good as Anet wants.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vulf.3098Vulf.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    If by "design decision" you mean "wanting to have big number of players" then you're right. People stopped going to MMOs for challenge about the same time people started going to MMOs.

    RuneScape, Final Fantasy 11, Everquest and Vanilla WoW were all pretty challenging with a decent populace while requiring a ton of time invested to do a lot of the content, but the whole "Been there done that" from the more hardcore crowd and the "I got 17 full time jobs and 37 kids" from casuals started to warp content design around 2006 -2008. It is also the reason the Moba Genre exploded about 2 years later.

    I am not entirely sure what is even being discussed in this thread anymore. Raiding in this game compared to other MMO's is entirely optional and it should stay that way. Difficulty tiers already exist with the different wings thus making an easy mode which would equate to pretty much just instanced world boss mode is a waste of developer time.

    Adding new content to keep people playing is nothing new in any game.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vulf.3098 said:
    No one really goes to an MMORPG for Challenge alone anymore because of the design direction most of them have taken.

    If by "design decision" you mean "wanting to have big number of players" then you're right. People stopped going to MMOs for challenge about the same time people started going to MMOs.

    You can't really make such generalizations. First and foremost, because people are "going MMOs" for a number of reasons, not just one. Challenge being one of these reasons is certainly valid.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    If by "design decision" you mean "wanting to have big number of players" then you're right. People stopped going to MMOs for challenge about the same time people started going to MMOs.

    Absolutely nobody came to play Guild Wars 2 for the loot stick farm either, as it was all added to the game 1 year after release. Before that point everything they added to the open world was "let's press F to clear refugee signs and hit dragon pinatas", find some "mad king doors / gifts with toys / holograms of dragon minions" in the open world and chat/hit with some NPCs. And that's basically all it was, with the exception of the lost shores karka invasion which was a one time event.

    Challenge can take many forms and is a huge part of playing an actual video game, I don't understand why anyone who wants to play a video game doesn't want a challenge at all, they can go watch movies instead. Rewarding players for overcoming ever increasing challenges within a video game is like the most basic rule of gaming.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trying to introduce new shinies to bring new people in suggets that those numbers might not be as good as Anet wants.

    So you are saying that 1 ring and 3 weapon skins were added because the numbers were low.

    By that logic, they added the 6 new weapon sets, 6 new armor sets, 18 unique specialization weapons + weapon parts, new elite specializations, 4 Mounts and many new mastery abilities because obviously the Open World part of the game didn't get high numbers right? If the numbers of open world players are so low that they need ALL those rewards to lure people in, then the Open World must be doing really badly.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trying to introduce new shinies to bring new people in suggets that those numbers might not be as good as Anet wants.

    So you are saying that 1 ring and 3 weapon skins were added because the numbers were low.

    By that logic, they added the 6 new weapon sets, 6 new armor sets, 18 unique specialization weapons + weapon parts, new elite specializations, 4 Mounts and many new mastery abilities because obviously the Open World part of the game didn't get high numbers right? If the numbers of open world players are so low that they need ALL those rewards to lure people in, then the Open World must be doing really badly.

    There's a difference between putting stuff in a mainstream content meant for everyone, and in a niche one meant for minority. And between "1 ring" and "the (currently) only one legendary ring".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trying to introduce new shinies to bring new people in suggets that those numbers might not be as good as Anet wants.

    That same logic can apply to essentially all other new content. The new Living Story Map wouldn't be as appealing to play on if none of the new weapon sets or skins were rewards on the map.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2017
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trying to introduce new shinies to bring new people in suggets that those numbers might not be as good as Anet wants.

    So you are saying that 1 ring and 3 weapon skins were added because the numbers were low.

    By that logic, they added the 6 new weapon sets, 6 new armor sets, 18 unique specialization weapons + weapon parts, new elite specializations, 4 Mounts and many new mastery abilities because obviously the Open World part of the game didn't get high numbers right? If the numbers of open world players are so low that they need ALL those rewards to lure people in, then the Open World must be doing really badly.

    There's a difference between putting stuff in a mainstream content meant for everyone, and in a niche one meant for minority. And between "1 ring" and "the (currently) only one legendary ring".

    No there is no difference. And if you believe there is one, how would you feel if the exclusive rewards between the "mainstream content" and the "niche content" were reversed? Put the only legendary ring in open world pve, and then put the only way to unlock elite specs and the only way to get mounts inside the raids.

    Edit: plus the currently only legendary accessory is hidden behind Season 3 farm/grind and not available through any other kind of content

    Also "meant for everyone" is a really weak argument.
    I'd rather wipe 100 times trying to figure out Dhuum than wait for meteors to drop to gather my brandstone.
    So I'll give you at least one person (I know there are loads of us) that the acquisition method of "farm excessively" isn't appealing to, yet the game gives us no alternative method to acquire the rewards we like. Just because everyone can do it, doesn't mean everyone will do it and put up with it.

  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Torolan.5816 said:
    While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

    I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.
    Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.
    Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.
    It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.
    And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

    So the question remains:
    Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

    Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

    I do plenty of raids when I already got the clear. Plenty of my guildies do so as well. People do solo runs for the challenge. It is this audience that craves raids and we do not want raids turend into 10 man instanced RIBA. And yeah we do like cool rewards so wut?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trying to introduce new shinies to bring new people in suggets that those numbers might not be as good as Anet wants.

    So you are saying that 1 ring and 3 weapon skins were added because the numbers were low.

    By that logic, they added the 6 new weapon sets, 6 new armor sets, 18 unique specialization weapons + weapon parts, new elite specializations, 4 Mounts and many new mastery abilities because obviously the Open World part of the game didn't get high numbers right? If the numbers of open world players are so low that they need ALL those rewards to lure people in, then the Open World must be doing really badly.

    There's a difference between putting stuff in a mainstream content meant for everyone, and in a niche one meant for minority. And between "1 ring" and "the (currently) only one legendary ring".

    So doing Ember Bay JP at least twice is meant for everyone? Right.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 22, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So doing Ember Bay JP at least twice is meant for everyone? Right.

    No, it wasn't. That requirement was indeed badly thought out (and in retrospect, Aurora was probably a little bit too restrictive in requirements in general).

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So doing Ember Bay JP at least twice is meant for everyone? Right.

    No, it wasn't. That requirement was indeed badly thought out (and in retrospect, Aurora was probably a little bit too restrictive in requirements in general).

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    It just points out a flaw in your argument. Not everything has to be available to everyone.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2017
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So doing Ember Bay JP at least twice is meant for everyone? Right.

    No, it wasn't. That requirement was indeed badly thought out (and in retrospect, Aurora was probably a little bit too restrictive in requirements in general).

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    It just points out a flaw in your argument. Not everything has to be available to everyone.

    Not really. At best, it only points out another flaw in the game to fix.
    And legendary gear is not "everything".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So doing Ember Bay JP at least twice is meant for everyone? Right.

    No, it wasn't. That requirement was indeed badly thought out (and in retrospect, Aurora was probably a little bit too restrictive in requirements in general).

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

    It just points out a flaw in your argument. Not everything has to be available to everyone.

    Not really. At best, it only points out another flaw in the game to fix.
    And legendary gear is not "everything".

    Indeed it isn't. It's the ultimate tier of rewards. It only makes sense to reserve that for the most dedicated players. What else are you going to offer them? Peanuts?
    That's not a flaw in the game, that's simply correct game design.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    Raiders are not necessarily most dedicated players. They are simply people that prefer playing in one very specific way.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.