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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    No, it's not nonsense. The usual raid rewards don't give any advantage over the ones you can get in the rest of the PvE content. The best stats are ascended and you can get/craft that without having to set one single foot into a raid.
    And if a player is so heavily focussed and dedicated to specific rewards that he really thinks "I must have those" (which is within my definition of not being sane irl) he definitely won't care about the route to it and do whatever is necessary to achieve it.

    I may have mentioned before that stat changing on ascended items is a pain... In fact it's far more irritating since it involves a trip to the mystic forge and a bunch of other things as well. While just stepping out of combat for a small period to switch stats is pretty easy. I again am still trying to figure out why the Legendary Armor came to raids first when PVE'ers don't really change builds much (Zerker/Condi unless you're playing a Ranger or a Mez) whereas PvP and WvW change constantly based on what's needed. So why it made sense to first hand Legendary Armor to PVE and not to game modes that actually do change stats (plus the ugly skins given to the other groups shows that they were an afterthought and not really considered as "special" as raiders etc).. You get the idea. Changing stats is actually pretty important to those of us who change our builds depending on how many people are on at a given time slot.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

    You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

    The general desire in the thread from easy mode advocates is that raids should have story so everyone can see it and that all items in the game should be available from a reward track style feature that fills up no matter what style of content you're playing so you can always just play your favorite content.

    That's bad design actually. It encourages grind and it burns out players faster. GW2 takes the opposite approach - it encourages players to play different kinds of content using exclusive rewards. Open world, personal story, instanced content, pvp modes, they all have their own goodies which encourage you to try new stuff. It's by far the better way to structure your rewards.

    Except that there shouldn't be "the super shiniest of the shinies" for the group of people who rarely change their builds... I mean seriously, and there should be multiple types of armor and there should be multiple ways to get it. Each of the different modes should have a short-term commitment to try the content out but not something that requires you to grind it. Which is precisely what I'm objecting to. I don't want to team with 10 random people in an encounter with a boss that can and has wasted over 4 hours to maybe complete it and then have to do it again over and over. If there were a training mode I might give it a try again, but 4 hours of constantly failing without any idea why? Nope. Not happening.

    I would rather go repair a keep or take a tower or defend a camp etc.. I could see having people go in for a component to something like other Legendaries have you do but I don't think you should have to spend the WHOLE TIME in that mode. I could do it for a component and I would do it for a component but for every single piece of armor? No thanks.

    And the compounding irritation is that the "coolest skins" go to PVE even though the majority of the builds are stagnant.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Kilamanjaro.2705 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports.

    Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player?

    Surprisingly, yes. I'm FAR better player now than I was before I started to raid. I'm not only better at executing team tactics that let me focus entirely on dps. I'm also much better at maintaining decent damage output in sub-optimal conditions. Which makes me better at handling mobs on my own, doing damage in WvW and probably PvP, if I played that. I have much better understanding of my class and I react much faster, and much more accurately. And all thanks to raiding. Because there's no other content that pushes me to improve as much as raids.

    I'm guessing you don't do much roaming then? I got better playing WvW and roaming more than anything PVE offered. I learned each of the classes I played had escapes (never touched them in PVE). The skills I learned in PVE did not translate at all to WvW and the skills I learned in WvW aren't working very well in PVE. Sure some of it is fine (knowing how to burn a boss is a bit easier) but many of the mechanics I use daily (Blood Scourge) are just not useful in PVE at all. Memorization of rotations aren't useful when you're in a dynamic fight, you have to know what to do and how to change things when you play in WvW, that just isn't the same in PVE. In PVE it's pretty much "timing, cc, burn" not really much else. Sure there might be added steps but the dynamic pretty much stays true. WvW has a lot more elements and they don't transfer.

    Also, I'd argue that "damage output" in a wvw raid isn't always as important as positioning, knowing when to back up and when to push, how to rotate around or split the other group in half etc... Knowing where you should be standing (ie near a firebrand or a scourge or an ele etc) knowing what to blow up and who not to bother to hit in a fight is a nuance that you just don't learn in PVE.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

    Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill would be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if you fail.

    True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

    Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

    • you learn what and how to counter your opponent
    • you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early
    • you make modifications to your build or change class
    • you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it
    • you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

    Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

    Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

    When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

    No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

    Playing raids isn't going to turn you into a God of PvP and doing actual PvP will be far better from improving your PvP skills, but just playing the game in areas where you are challenged will do things like improve your ability to move intelligently, zoning damage and AoE, and reaction speed.

    Umm... Not really, playing in WvW will fix all of those problems pretty quickly... Big hint: Red circles are bad.

    But seriously, I disagree you learn all of those skills from playing WvW much faster because the entire situation is far more fluid than raids and far more unpredictable. I can do a LOT in 4 hours and I learned far more about positioning than I ever learned in PVE content period. Reaction speed, AOE ranges, where to move and zones... All of those I learned faster in WvW than I ever learned in PVE. Playing against other players who were playing the same class also taught me faster than I could ever have learned from any PVE boss ever. I die less often then I did when I started playing WvW, but that doesn't always translate over to PVE. I have different builds and tolerances for class on PVE vs when I play WvW so I'm tankier in WvW than I am in PVE and the burn ratio is different as a result.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

    Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill would be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if you fail.

    True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

    Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

    • you learn what and how to counter your opponent
    • you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early
    • you make modifications to your build or change class
    • you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it
    • you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

    Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

    Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

    When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

    No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

    Agreed... I completely agree with you here. The abilities learned in PVE are not transferable to WvW. The build paths in WvW alone make that abundantly clear and then the different skill trees etc. All classes have CC and all of them have to know when to use their heals/escapes etc.. PVE doesn't require you to even touch your escapes in fact most people don't even use them.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    They should have used the base unit that Anet provided to show consistency over the years, as opposed to applying some arbitrary exchange amount applied when the graph was made, as this would make a graph made 6 months prior or 6 months after show different numbers.. real bad way to do statistics.. unless you're trying to push an agenda.

    It wasn't an arbitrary amount, it was a conversion between korean won to dollars, a currency that reddit users would more likely understand. Who knows the exchange rate of korean won and how it translates in other currencies? If they used the different exchange rates at the different times then the results of each quarter wouldn't be compatible with each other. Instead, they used the same exchange rate for all quarters, which is the sensible thing to do. You on the other hand complaining about those numbers doesn't make any sense, unless you are pushing an agenda.

    ** Actually from reading the entire thread it states that they used the currency that was current at the various times in the game. The only thing they did not add into the equation was inflation. The results were accurate based on the timeframe they did not use current exchange rates at all.

    And besides that, the difference in the numbers is so insignificant that doesn't even change the outcome so I don't know what you mean by pushing an agenda. The graphs are exactly the same, identical, the percentage losses are identical, it clearly shows that the drop in the game's population was steady and started way before Heart of Thorns (unlike what you claimed).

    The graphs were harder on GW1 vs GW2 and it did show a decline after HoT launched, the breakdown was the sales report (NCsoft placed their earnings in it but the part used for the chart was the sales portion). HoT had a -25% (afterwards) and current earnings state that PoF was a huge success (if you calculate in that it was released later and add in what the chart would have for other earnings). Then you add in that there hasn't really been a content drought (unlike before HoT and a bit after it). Patches are more regular etc...

    So here is what I think, you run out of arguments, and instead of tackling the problematic logic of yours, claiming that the decline was after the expansion due to challenging content, you resorted in ignoring the clear truth by feigning ignorance and blaming the "data".

    I think content was a problem but also "time spent" more solo players are returning to play GW2. PoF allowed Solo players to actually play rather than "holding people up at meta map events" etc... I know that my kids have enjoyed PoF much more than they liked HoT because they can do more things solo and don't have a meta in a map to prevent them from exploring etc. Add in that the mounts make moving a lot faster/more fun and they've played more often. While the evidence is anecdotal my sons who want to play casually actually log in more often, which before they HATED logging in after they completed their initial storyline. They HATED HoT. (My kids play League and twitch games more often then mmo's. They disliked HoT because they found all of the maps annoying, the mini-map was completely useless in trying to figure out where someone was in most of the maps. They found the constant meta annoying especially when they were trying to get map completion and they didn't enjoy repeating the content, they didn't feel like there was any real progression etc). With PoF they have found they can choose to join in a fight or not they have more choices. They can continue completing a map without annoying things getting in the way. There's no one yelling in map at people who are trying to complete one of the Hero Points that the "map meta needs help" etc...

    None of this is of course relevant to this discussion but it's something that they've commented on multiple times and I think it was the content in HoT and the way it was "put together" that annoyed a certain group of players more than others. I'm not convinced it was raiding, I was initially interested in raiding but like I said 4 hours of fail and I decided there were better things I could do with my time.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    My point was simply millions play easy mode raids, clearly players like it. Try reflecting on why you are so horribly terrifyingly offended by this really simple obvious truth.

    Yeah you can go ahead and cut that kitten out. Stop projecting on to other people.

    You pointed out WoW has tons of people currently doing easy mode raids. I'm sure that's true. I'm pointing out that back when Nostalrius was around there were more people playing older versions of WoW than there were playing live WoW. Enough people to convince Blizzard to release classic WoW after refusing to for the better part of a decade.

    Yeah, easy mode raids have a certain appeal. I can't deny that. It's the same appeal Istan farms have. But you can't deny the way classic WoW did things had it's own appeal considering how many people are still playing that as well. That's all I'm saying. And it's be nice if you could actually respond to me like a grown up and have a grown up conversation with someone.

    I didnt deny class wow had good stuff, all i said was millions like easy mode raids. That's it, the rest is just ducking and diving from what i can see.

    Saying millions like something after a game has lost millions of players simply shows that not everything done was disproved of by the player base. Having a developer re-release a way earlier version of their game which has had hundreds of millions in development since then shows that they've noticed that they lost a very huge crowd of their initial players. This is even more evident if the games versions are competing with themselves.

    Without context stating that millions like something is of 0 value.

    you do know im referring to ESO as well right? ESO has millions of players now its 2nd behind GW in my opinion. In any case, i was stating a fact, millions like easy mode. You can apply any context you like to that statement, it doesnt change the fact.

    Absolutely, it is a fact. Just as it is a fact that Blizzard is re-releasing 1.12 after hundreds of millions of development into their game is a fact. Just as that ESO had a very rocky launch and had to go free to play to even remotely recover and is one of the only games which offers realm versus realm.

    All of those are facts. We can now take each of them individually and draw conclusions off of individual facts or try to look at the big picture and figure out what is going on overall.

    No one is denying that millions enjoy easy mode raids. People simply disagree that this fact is proof in support of easy mode raids for GW2 being a good idea.

    Just to point out though, people love nostalgia. It’s like classic Everquest, when I spent a summer playing in my late teens, people enjoy going back and reliving experiences of their first mmo, for most that would be Wow. Same thing if Gw1 got a content update, people would go back. People generally loving going back to simpler times and reliving those moments.

    Edit: This is also a human thing as well, how many of you would like to go back to a simpler time and relive those experiences.

    Actually when they had that brief revamp (bringing back a classic EQ) I went back for a bit but then I remembered how irritating it was and I left. Nostalgia can be a bad thing.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    @vesica tempestas.1563
    What you are missing is that in ESO veteran trials give far better gear than the normal version.
    As for the question, why does ESO have "normal" Raids, this is a no-brainer, that's where players farm their gear, in Guild Wars 2 we don't have a concept of gear treadmill, maybe, to satisfy all those World of Warcraft does it, and ESO does it, people they should add a true gear treadmill to the game. You know, to be like those games.

    i'm not talking about gear, I sub to ESO and i enjoy raids casually, the gear is good enough and i get 10 man content.

    Yet gear is all the reason "casual" raids exist.

    look you guys are frantically, desperately trying to find holes in what i'm saying. ONCE AGAIN all im saying is there is a precedent for casual raids, thats it, thats all. Its a truth, not an opinion, fact.

    The precedent includes the complete package, which you are leaving out completely. "Casual" Raids being there to get gear for the higher tier Raids, and higher Raids having much better quality gear than normal Raids. THAT'S the precedent in other games, not that "Casual" Raids simply exist in other games. You are omitting half the truth, which makes your argument misleading and flawed at best.

    I know this, we all know this. in GW2 its skins, in other games its gearsets, that doesn't invalidate my point about millions of player playing casually. If you guys want to beleive that GW2 is the onbly AAA mmorpg in existance that somehow has casual players that would not like 10 man instances, you go on ahead.

    I'd do 10 man content if it wasn't a massive time commitment because getting my family to actually do the content with me is already a decent pain, after they complete 1 part they're "done". They do it to see it but they're not interested in grinding period... In fact it's one of their biggest complaints. They hate grinding. (I'd do it with family only because I'm not really interested in randoms within an instance). If I could get 10 man fractals where I could just grab my casual family members to come play with me. I'd absolutely do it (maybe I could convince them to leave League for an hour or two). But having to commit a ton of time, everyone getting to fail for 4 hours? Nope, not doing it. I'm an adult and I can spend my time doing better things and I have zero interest in playing with randoms in instanced content ever again.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    My point was simply millions play easy mode raids, clearly players like it. Try reflecting on why you are so horribly terrifyingly offended by this really simple obvious truth.

    Yeah you can go ahead and cut that kitten out. Stop projecting on to other people.

    You pointed out WoW has tons of people currently doing easy mode raids. I'm sure that's true. I'm pointing out that back when Nostalrius was around there were more people playing older versions of WoW than there were playing live WoW. Enough people to convince Blizzard to release classic WoW after refusing to for the better part of a decade.

    Yeah, easy mode raids have a certain appeal. I can't deny that. It's the same appeal Istan farms have. But you can't deny the way classic WoW did things had it's own appeal considering how many people are still playing that as well. That's all I'm saying. And it's be nice if you could actually respond to me like a grown up and have a grown up conversation with someone.

    I didnt deny class wow had good stuff, all i said was millions like easy mode raids. That's it, the rest is just ducking and diving from what i can see.

    Saying millions like something after a game has lost millions of players simply shows that not everything done was disproved of by the player base. Having a developer re-release a way earlier version of their game which has had hundreds of millions in development since then shows that they've noticed that they lost a very huge crowd of their initial players. This is even more evident if the games versions are competing with themselves.

    Without context stating that millions like something is of 0 value.

    you do know im referring to ESO as well right? ESO has millions of players now its 2nd behind GW in my opinion. In any case, i was stating a fact, millions like easy mode. You can apply any context you like to that statement, it doesnt change the fact.

    Absolutely, it is a fact. Just as it is a fact that Blizzard is re-releasing 1.12 after hundreds of millions of development into their game is a fact. Just as that ESO had a very rocky launch and had to go free to play to even remotely recover and is one of the only games which offers realm versus realm.

    All of those are facts. We can now take each of them individually and draw conclusions off of individual facts or try to look at the big picture and figure out what is going on overall.

    No one is denying that millions enjoy easy mode raids. People simply disagree that this fact is proof in support of easy mode raids for GW2 being a good idea.

    Just to point out though, people love nostalgia. It’s like classic Everquest, when I spent a summer playing in my late teens, people enjoy going back and reliving experiences of their first mmo, for most that would be Wow. Same thing if Gw1 got a content update, people would go back. People generally loving going back to simpler times and reliving those moments.

    Edit: This is also a human thing as well, how many of you would like to go back to a simpler time and relive those experiences.

    Actually when they had that brief revamp (bringing back a classic EQ) I went back for a bit but then I remembered how irritating it was and I left. Nostalgia can be a bad thing.

    Fair enough, EQ was pretty hardcore back in the day.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    My point was simply millions play easy mode raids, clearly players like it. Try reflecting on why you are so horribly terrifyingly offended by this really simple obvious truth.

    Yeah you can go ahead and cut that kitten out. Stop projecting on to other people.

    You pointed out WoW has tons of people currently doing easy mode raids. I'm sure that's true. I'm pointing out that back when Nostalrius was around there were more people playing older versions of WoW than there were playing live WoW. Enough people to convince Blizzard to release classic WoW after refusing to for the better part of a decade.

    Yeah, easy mode raids have a certain appeal. I can't deny that. It's the same appeal Istan farms have. But you can't deny the way classic WoW did things had it's own appeal considering how many people are still playing that as well. That's all I'm saying. And it's be nice if you could actually respond to me like a grown up and have a grown up conversation with someone.

    I didnt deny class wow had good stuff, all i said was millions like easy mode raids. That's it, the rest is just ducking and diving from what i can see.

    Saying millions like something after a game has lost millions of players simply shows that not everything done was disproved of by the player base. Having a developer re-release a way earlier version of their game which has had hundreds of millions in development since then shows that they've noticed that they lost a very huge crowd of their initial players. This is even more evident if the games versions are competing with themselves.

    Without context stating that millions like something is of 0 value.

    you do know im referring to ESO as well right? ESO has millions of players now its 2nd behind GW in my opinion. In any case, i was stating a fact, millions like easy mode. You can apply any context you like to that statement, it doesnt change the fact.

    Absolutely, it is a fact. Just as it is a fact that Blizzard is re-releasing 1.12 after hundreds of millions of development into their game is a fact. Just as that ESO had a very rocky launch and had to go free to play to even remotely recover and is one of the only games which offers realm versus realm.

    All of those are facts. We can now take each of them individually and draw conclusions off of individual facts or try to look at the big picture and figure out what is going on overall.

    No one is denying that millions enjoy easy mode raids. People simply disagree that this fact is proof in support of easy mode raids for GW2 being a good idea.

    Just to point out though, people love nostalgia. It’s like classic Everquest, when I spent a summer playing in my late teens, people enjoy going back and reliving experiences of their first mmo, for most that would be Wow. Same thing if Gw1 got a content update, people would go back. People generally loving going back to simpler times and reliving those moments.

    Edit: This is also a human thing as well, how many of you would like to go back to a simpler time and relive those experiences.

    Actually when they had that brief revamp (bringing back a classic EQ) I went back for a bit but then I remembered how irritating it was and I left. Nostalgia can be a bad thing.

    Fair enough, EQ was pretty hardcore back in the day.

    Yeah it really was... I forgot how hardcore till I went back during that period. I left about 2 months later and never went back again. Before that I was playing a Necro on EQ as well (was one of the best solo classes because you could kite quite a few mobs, plus feign death to remove the aggro was a major plus). Outside of the mobs that summoned I could take pretty much anything in the game solo and if I was paired with either a monk or a ranger I could kill everything. All they had to do was buff me and I then sit back while I dotted things to death.

    I thought that going back to the original EQ would be exciting, but then they brought back all the mechanics I hated so... Yeah I quit and like I said I just never really looked back.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.

    Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill would be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if you fail.

    True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

    Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

    • you learn what and how to counter your opponent
    • you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early
    • you make modifications to your build or change class
    • you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it
    • you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

    Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

    Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

    When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

    No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

    Playing raids isn't going to turn you into a God of PvP and doing actual PvP will be far better from improving your PvP skills, but just playing the game in areas where you are challenged will do things like improve your ability to move intelligently, zoning damage and AoE, and reaction speed.

    Umm... Not really, playing in WvW will fix all of those problems pretty quickly... Big hint: Red circles are bad.

    But seriously, I disagree you learn all of those skills from playing WvW much faster because the entire situation is far more fluid than raids and far more unpredictable. I can do a LOT in 4 hours and I learned far more about positioning than I ever learned in PVE content period. Reaction speed, AOE ranges, where to move and zones... All of those I learned faster in WvW than I ever learned in PVE. Playing against other players who were playing the same class also taught me faster than I could ever have learned from any PVE boss ever. I die less often then I did when I started playing WvW, but that doesn't always translate over to PVE. I have different builds and tolerances for class on PVE vs when I play WvW so I'm tankier in WvW than I am in PVE and the burn ratio is different as a result.

    Okay.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Do casual/hardcore raiders need easy mode? Probably not.

    Do the other players and I need easy mode? Yes.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    If the Mistforged Triumphant Armor is the set with the Turel light tentacles I would love to rock that skin my warrior over the envoy set but I don't WvW anywhere near the degree needed to get that so I probably never will. I've personally made peace with that.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    If the Mistforged Triumphant Armor is the set with the Turel light tentacles I would love to rock that skin my warrior over the envoy set but I don't WvW anywhere near the degree needed to get that so I probably never will. I've personally made peace with that.

    I think the chest piece has enough flair for sure, however I think the individual part, gloves boots legs etc. need an extra bit of umph.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    Have you seen the Legendary Armor in WvW? Seriously, it's kinda pathetic when you put it beside Envoy Armor. It's not even really close. You can tell that the WvW armor was an afterthought NOT something they imagined as an epic thing for WvW. It seriously needs a rework. The chest piece is the only nice thing about it. Look at the entire rest of it. (Plus if you look at the leather vs heavy vs Light... It could really use a better look.)

    You can get two options.. There's the Mistforged and then the Triumphant. To do the Mistforged you need to reach level 1k and then it's about 29 weeks of squirmish tickets to manage it. If you go the basic Triumphant Hero's it looks exactly like the exotic (no particle effects etc) and it takes 22 weeks.

    The Mistforged has a nice chest piece but the rest of the armor is rather boring. It doesn't offer any of the "cool effects" you see in the Envoy Armor. Also seriously the helmets are not that great looking (except maybe the heavy armor and even then the super huge horns are a bit over-done, maybe for a Charr but it looks silly on an asura...)

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    If the Mistforged Triumphant Armor is the set with the Turel light tentacles I would love to rock that skin my warrior over the envoy set but I don't WvW anywhere near the degree needed to get that so I probably never will. I've personally made peace with that.

    The chest piece is ok but it could really use a bit more. The rest of the set is rather low key compared.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    If the Mistforged Triumphant Armor is the set with the Turel light tentacles I would love to rock that skin my warrior over the envoy set but I don't WvW anywhere near the degree needed to get that so I probably never will. I've personally made peace with that.

    I think the chest piece has enough flair for sure, however I think the individual part, gloves boots legs etc. need an extra bit of umph.

    Exactly, the entire set needs to look better. One piece does not an armor set make. Plus level 1.5k... You can get a set sooner of course if you want, it's the exotic without flare and then you can wait again till you're level 1k to get the other skin... 29 weeks at 365 skirmish tickets a week or 22 weeks with 365 skirmish tickets a week. Easier to get the first set initially and then save up for the next set... But it would be nice if both sets were nicer looking in general.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring. Seriously though, the set looks exactly like the "Exotic/Ascended" except in combat, at least the Envoy looks differently the whole time.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

  • Nafets.1238Nafets.1238 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    Raidsellers doing their job?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    Have you seen the Legendary Armor in WvW? Seriously, it's kinda pathetic when you put it beside Envoy Armor. It's not even really close. You can tell that the WvW armor was an afterthought NOT something they imagined as an epic thing for WvW. It seriously needs a rework. The chest piece is the only nice thing about it. Look at the entire rest of it. (Plus if you look at the leather vs heavy vs Light... It could really use a better look.)

    You can get two options.. There's the Mistforged and then the Triumphant. To do the Mistforged you need to reach level 1k and then it's about 29 weeks of squirmish tickets to manage it. If you go the basic Triumphant Hero's it looks exactly like the exotic (no particle effects etc) and it takes 22 weeks.

    The Mistforged has a nice chest piece but the rest of the armor is rather boring. It doesn't offer any of the "cool effects" you see in the Envoy Armor. Also seriously the helmets are not that great looking (except maybe the heavy armor and even then the super huge horns are a bit over-done, maybe for a Charr but it looks silly on an asura...)

    That's because they were not designed with legendary tier in mind. Ability to change them to legendaries came later, and wasn't planned originally. Completely unlike Envoy, which was designed around it being a legendary armor set from the very beginning, and thus looks accordingly.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Nafets.1238 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    Raidsellers doing their job?

    So since I used plural, could you please point me to raid sellers selling the Sublime Mistforged? Either that, or admit you took my words out of their context on purpose, for the sole reason to snap at something.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    Have you seen the Legendary Armor in WvW? Seriously, it's kinda pathetic when you put it beside Envoy Armor. It's not even really close. You can tell that the WvW armor was an afterthought NOT something they imagined as an epic thing for WvW. It seriously needs a rework. The chest piece is the only nice thing about it. Look at the entire rest of it. (Plus if you look at the leather vs heavy vs Light... It could really use a better look.)

    You can get two options.. There's the Mistforged and then the Triumphant. To do the Mistforged you need to reach level 1k and then it's about 29 weeks of squirmish tickets to manage it. If you go the basic Triumphant Hero's it looks exactly like the exotic (no particle effects etc) and it takes 22 weeks.

    The Mistforged has a nice chest piece but the rest of the armor is rather boring. It doesn't offer any of the "cool effects" you see in the Envoy Armor. Also seriously the helmets are not that great looking (except maybe the heavy armor and even then the super huge horns are a bit over-done, maybe for a Charr but it looks silly on an asura...)

    That's because they were not designed with legendary tier in mind. Ability to change them to legendaries came later, and wasn't planned originally. Completely unlike Envoy, which was designed around it being a legendary armor set from the very beginning, and thus looks accordingly.

    Exactly, and this is a big problem.. Because (as I've pointed out throughout this thread) PVE rarely if ever changes their stats. They do not need to pop out of combat and immediately change them. They do not need to have 2 or 3 (or more depending on toons) sets of complete ascended armor to change into based on what they are doing at any particular point in the day. Their builds follow a binary build path. Whereas WvW does not.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I will say it again, the PVE Legendary Armor LOOKS LIKE Legendary Armor and was given to a group of people who rarely if ever change their builds, so while PVE can use the option to change their build as soon as they leave combat, the reality is PVE players do not. Whereas the Legendary Armor handed to the gamemodes with lots of build diversity DO NOT. It's a bit silly.

  • zaekeon.5128zaekeon.5128 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    I would just say be careful about how you make raids hard. Wow is a good example of where to learn on what kind of mechanics make things fun and hard and which ones are so punishing that it becomes unfun. Example: raids that are heavy with mechanics where a single person messing up a mechanic wipes the entire raid = not fun.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I will say it again, the PVE Legendary Armor LOOKS LIKE Legendary Armor and was given to a group of people who rarely if ever change their builds, so while PVE can use the option to change their build as soon as they leave combat, the reality is PVE players do not. Whereas the Legendary Armor handed to the gamemodes with lots of build diversity DO NOT. It's a bit silly.

    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I will say it again, the PVE Legendary Armor LOOKS LIKE Legendary Armor and was given to a group of people who rarely if ever change their builds, so while PVE can use the option to change their build as soon as they leave combat, the reality is PVE players do not. Whereas the Legendary Armor handed to the gamemodes with lots of build diversity DO NOT. It's a bit silly.

    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    Yes, you said it exactly... Condi to Power and back again... But do you by any chance switch from celestial to nomads or to Condi and then back to Celestial etc? No, because you have 2 build paths. WvW has more than that. You can choose bunker builds, burn builds, supportive builds, escape builds, tank builds, stealth builds and hybrids of each of these styles.. All of those builds are viable and used regularly in WvW and depending on the time of day (prime-time vs off-hours) you have to change your build to match what it is you are doing at the time. Literally within hours if a zerg pops up and I am joining the zerg I have to change all of my gear for what is needed in a zerg build vs what is needed for roaming. That includes runes. Which means several complete sets of gear. For me Legendary Armor isn't a "nice thing" it's something that saves me bank slots and inventory slots. PVE players often mock people who playing with Nomads because they literally never have to use the stats. Come hang out a while in WvW and you'll see all sorts of different stats being run by different classes at different times of day.

    PVE does 2 builds (unless they are Mes or Ranger). There really isn't much variation other than maximise your DPS for a given task. You don't have to worry about tanking or surviving, or even escaping. That's not even a thing in PVE. Survival in PVE is bursting the other thing down before it bursts you. So again I ask, why does PVE get the "most awesome Legendary gear" when it's build path is binary.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Siegy.7092 said:
    I enjoy coming back to this thread every once in a while, even having some snacks while reading it. The amount of entitlement and cheap agendas here are cringeworthy at best. With the amount of time and energy that some spent writing and arguing here most would have already learned all encounters and gotten their Envoy armors on 2 characters. If you want something, work hard for it and stop making silly demands and blaming others for your own limitations, lazyness and incompetence.

    Its opinions like this that gives raiders a bad name unfortunately with their 'must be lazy blah blah' attitude. The majority of players are actually adults with many years experience playing mmorpg including raids and have good reasons for not having the time to devote large timeblocks to a game and want raiding in the style you get on every other AAA mmorpg out there. This is 2018, not 2005.

    That's OK. Raiding is not mandatory, and neither are its rewards.

    And we're back to the "raiders get the top tier looking stuff" while people who actually change their builds with every patch/ during certain hours on their servers in wvw etc get... bleh stuff.. So can we have a conversation on that then? Can you explain to me why you "deserve" the shiniest of the shinies when you rarely change your builds?

    coz you already have legendary armor in wvw, and the skin itself is for pve only? Also pvp doesn't even use stats that are tied to armor. Do you want the skin in wvw too?
    I'd be willing to trade the envoy set for the mistforged triumphant if you want the envoy skin that much if that's what you want.

    I don’t think that is what he is asking for, however something on par to Envoy Armor. I think Mistforged Triumphant Armor should get a face lift.

    I'm female but yes, the armor needs a facelift. The chest piece is ok but the rest of it? It is just kinda boring.

    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

    That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

    That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

    You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

    That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

    You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

    The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do. But hybrid builds or builds like PVT are just a waste and don't bring anything useful to anyone. The only hybrid builds you'll see is, sometimes, condi or power druids (very niche and only used by very experienced groups that don't need a full healing druid, and in low-pressure bosses) or even off-meta builds that few people know like harrier chrono.

    When you think about raid builds, you need to think about the needs of the team (you need 25 might, fury, bla bla bla) and who can provide that. You'll make the composition having in mind who will provide every needed thing. It's a group effort, since classes are too unique in what they can bring to the party, specially when we look at support builds.

    About the legendary armor, I agree with many ppl here. It's a space saver, yes... but not so much. 6 slots for armor + 1 slot for each set of runes you'll need. That's a lot. But that's not the main problem about legen armor, the real problem is how incredibly tedious would be to swap stats and equip runes. I'd finish faster just by right-clicking the equipment slot and selecting the other piece of armor or trinket I need. That's what I do, although I have enough LIs to craft 3 and a half legendary armors. For me, it's just a new ascended set for each build and a character per build, if I use those builds often enough. Right now I have 3 guardians, 2 druids (one of them has a celestial set for WvW and a viper one for raids), 3 mesmers (minstrel/commander/viper mirage), 2 warriors (power/condi), 1 revenant (with heal/condi/power builds), 2 eles (heal/power), 1 necro (celestial/condi), 1 thief (power), 1 engi (power). Would a legen solve my space problem? Maybe. But it would trade me a space problem for a time problem. I'd rather use ArcDPS build templates, it's so comfortable and fast to change builds if you use that.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

    That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

    You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

    The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

    Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards. When I use words like I guess, it means exactly that, I’m guessing. If someone is purely in it for the raids and just the experience of the raids, then what I’m saying is that they do not care about the rewards, because there main focus is the actual raid and the challenge it offers. What you are claiming is that no one does this, which is a pretty bold statement and impossible to prove.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Not to pull you into this Nia, but would you raid regardless of the reward?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

    That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

    You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

    The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

    Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards.

    Precisely in the claim I challenge with this sentence. You're implying an absolute level of purism. You should prove it, or you have no grounds to attack my refutation on the basis of being absolute.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    I have to completely disagree on multiple points. Let's start with visuals:

    WvW visuals are way less important than pve.
    Most hardcore wvw players change their look constantly, especially commanders as to not get focused down by the enemy zerg or squad. Having a special snowflake armor which signals every one on the other side to focus you is highly disadvantageous in a wvw setting. At least if you play this mode dedicated enough to care about efficiency.

    Pve visuals it's all about flash. Not needed but basically part of the main pve endgame.
    Pvp sort of mixes with pve. Be flashy or rather don't be flashy. Catch enemies off guard. If at all spvp deserves a unique skin for their set most of all.

    Stat changing should be a factor about who gets legendary armor
    Strait off the bat, why does spvp get legendary armor? Completely useless for the mode if we go by requirements. Give spvp players exotics and an amazing skin, done. (I'm fine with spvp having access to legendary armor, just for argument sake this would make way more sense)

    Most pve raiders have multiple sets, on multiple characters. Hell some even have multiple of the same character per build. By the time you get into your 2nd or 3rd legendary set you are swimming in ascended gear. No wonder people don't trade the legendary armor between characters. It's a huge hassle. That said build variety does exist sufficiently and highly optimized groups use this to improve their runs. The fact that raids are easy enough that you can run though most of them with your berserker Dragonhunter without ever having to adapt to bosses (other classes especially mesmer have to) is more attrbiuted to the easy difficulty of raids.

    Stats in wvw probably matter the most, if you don't consider the vast majority of pve plebs who just run along. For most of those it's all about get some points and leave.

    What does this tell us:
    Spvp is the game mode which most would benefit from a unique skin.
    Wvw is the game mode which most benefits from functionality.
    Pve is inbetween.

    Working as intended.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

    That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

    You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

    The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

    Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards.

    Precisely in the claim I challenge with this sentence. You're implying an absolute level of purism. You should prove it, or you have no grounds to attack my refutation on the basis of being absolute.

    You know, I could easily prove this, by just claiming this about myself... I already have Legendary Armor, really have no use for any of the rewards raids offers, if I step into a raid at this very instance, it’s not to gain a reward. Which would then crush your absolution.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

    That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

    You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

    The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

    Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards.

    Precisely in the claim I challenge with this sentence. You're implying an absolute level of purism. You should prove it, or you have no grounds to attack my refutation on the basis of being absolute.

    You know, I could easily prove this, by just claiming this about myself... I already have Legendary Armor, really have no use for any of the rewards raids offers, if I step into a raid at this very instance, it’s not to gain a reward. Which would then crush your absolution.

    Oh, I totally believe you play raids for other primary reasons. After all, I do the same myself. But I'm not buying rewards having absolutely no influence at all. You can claim it, but I don't really see how you can prove it. There's some liquid gold, there are the useful raid currencies, there are the ascended drops and there are the raid skins. You can't just dismiss all this, because it ultimately holds at least some importance in the game. The closest you can get to proving your point is if you consistently cleared raids multiple times every week, since the subsequent clears provide very minimal (but technically - still existent) rewards.

    And even then all I'd have to do is add "statistically speaking" in front of "nobody" for my statement to remain valid. :)

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    I have to completely disagree on multiple points. Let's start with visuals:

    WvW visuals are way less important than pve.
    Most hardcore wvw players change their look constantly, especially commanders as to not get focused down by the enemy zerg or squad. Having a special snowflake armor which signals every one on the other side to focus you is highly disadvantageous in a wvw setting. At least if you play this mode dedicated enough to care about efficiency.

    ** Most Commanders I know tend to have the brightest looking gear out there so that their OWN group can recognize them and follow them. The harder core the commander the more they realize that visibility for your own blob is more important than worrying about the other blob focusing you down. If your blob can see you then they will follow you. If your blob CAN'T see you then you die and the blob follows afterwards. The constant "stand near the commander" thing is real in WvW and part of the reason the Commander has BRIGHT outfits vs the rest. Often the Lieutenants are running similar colors to the Commander so that people know to follow them too. They're either running bright orange/yellow or bright blue. They do not change their armor a lot or try to hide because then the zerg loses them in the fight (not sure why they can't just follow the big tag but it is what it is sometimes). The people who do choose "lower key" armor tend to be roamers/scouts and that's just to make the enemy think they're an easy kill. (Ie the guy who has all his gear look like newbie gear, and is actually running full ascended). Plus there's the "everyone wearing a commander tag to confuse the commander tag watchers" tactics that happen on occasion too and the brightest colored outfit is the "real" commander (I've been linked to 2 servers who did this as a tactic against "commander tag spies"). If everyone was wearing the exact same flashy Legendary Armor then still wouldn't be a problem. Also it's not just commanders who have Legendary Armor. In fact pretty much anyone who is around level 1k has it (if they wanted it). You can get the base-line Legendary Armor after finishing the Triumphant armor track (enough to fully finish a toon). . Then take/ use the tokens to get Ascended take those to the Mystic Forge and "ta-da" you're done. Depending on time commitment and whether or not you want to collect the tokens or make them base-line Legendary Armor can be yours in a matter of 2 months (or about 22 weeks after you start playing WvW). No bells and whistles on the basic Legendary Armor, which is probably why it's not very popular and most people will wait till they hit level 1.5k. If you want the nicer version then you have to wait till you hit level 1.5k and do basically the same thing. If you save up your Skirmish tickets the whole time you can get the "flashy" Legendary Armor as soon as you have enough of the tokens (you get partials and require 10 partials for 1, you only get the partials from silver till mithril level and once you hit Diamond it disappears). It's about 9 half-tokens per week and you need 3 full tokens for gloves, boots, arms and 4 for chest and legs. But you can also (if you have the skills up) can make the tokens yourself as well. Squirmish tickets are 365 per week. So about 22 weeks of continued saving to get enough for basic Legendary and 29 for the Flashy kind. I've yet to meet anyone who wouldn't rather the "Flashier" stuff and I rarely step into PVE anymore.

    In fact I could fully get the entire base-line Legendary Armor right now but I'm waiting till I hit level 1.5k because A) I want the flashier one, just like pretty much anyone else would and B) I'm halfway till level 1.5k anyways, I might as well wait, save up the tokens so I can get multiple Legendary pieces as once.

    Pve visuals it's all about flash. Not needed but basically part of the main pve endgame.
    Pvp sort of mixes with pve. Be flashy or rather don't be flashy. Catch enemies off guard. If at all spvp deserves a unique skin for their set most of all.

    Stat changing should be a factor about who gets legendary armor
    Strait off the bat, why does spvp get legendary armor? Completely useless for the mode if we go by requirements. Give spvp players exotics and an amazing skin, done. (I'm fine with spvp having access to legendary armor, just for argument sake this would make way more sense)

    sPvP does change stats too but yeah not as much as perhaps WvW. I like that they have the option of trying new things before they start fighting in the arena though. It means should "cool changes happen" they can try them out faster, rather than having to leave go get pieces etc etc... Mystic forge.

    Most pve raiders have multiple sets, on multiple characters. Hell some even have multiple of the same character per build. By the time you get into your 2nd or 3rd legendary set you are swimming in ascended gear. No wonder people don't trade the legendary armor between characters. It's a huge hassle. That said build variety does exist sufficiently and highly optimized groups use this to improve their runs. The fact that raids are easy enough that you can run though most of them with your berserker Dragonhunter without ever having to adapt to bosses (other classes especially mesmer have to) is more attrbiuted to the easy difficulty of raids.

    I have one toon of each class and 2 toons of the classes I play the most. I'll probably have more later.... All of them have Ascended. The three I play the most I'm up to 5 sets of armor and it's an inventory space nightmare. I would LOVE to take that down to 1 that I could just change, but at the same time I want the pretty skin vs the boring exotic looking skin, so I'll wait.... I have enough patience to wait till 1.5k so I can get the better skin rather than just getting the "boring" one right now. As for the "multiple builds" If you're running a Mes or a Ranger I would tend to agree, but everything around the other classes is based on the highest output of damage so you're running either Zerkers or Condi based on whatever is stronger at the time. The only thing that tends to change is what runes/sigils and even then it doesn't change as often or as much as it does in WvW.

    Stats in wvw probably matter the most, if you don't consider the vast majority of pve plebs who just run along. For most of those it's all about get some points and leave.

    What does this tell us:
    Spvp is the game mode which most would benefit from a unique skin.
    Wvw is the game mode which most benefits from functionality.
    Pve is inbetween.

    Working as intended.

    WvW would like better skins. Actually it's something that comes up about every couple of weeks. We love our fashion wars just as much as the rest of the game. Oh and just in case you were wondering, I ran it by my wvw guild, we want pretty skins too and we love functionality that is absolutely the case but the fashion wars are REAL in WvW. We want our gear to be flashy AND functional.

    I agree Spvp should get some nicer skins too, PVE they have a LOT of nice skins and let's be honest here for PVE Legendaries are less of a "necessity and more of a choice"

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Yea, well, I'm not happy with the ridiculous rear bumper skirt on the light Envoy either. But that's not their point. You don't craft these because you like their looks, you craft these because of what this signifies.

    So you'd be totally fine if your Legendary Armor looked exactly like Exotic armor with a bonus effect that only showed up when you entered combat? Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

    I doubt my legendary armor has spent even 20% of its time on my character being visible and itself. I kept it under outfits for a long time, and it is currently transmuted to the much more elegant Flamekissed set. The bonus effect doesn't work in either case. And... I'm totally fine.

    That's just you. Other people have different reasons and due to them may act differently. I for one have crafted heavy legendary primarily for looks (and partially for QoL). I'm currently thinking whether to craft light as well, and i'm unsure about that purely due to aestethics (they don't fit neither my mesmers, nor necro, and legendary on ele would be wasted due to her always using zerker, so i'd probably need to redesign one of my character looks, which is always a long process). I also know, that i am never going to use medium envoy (way too ugly), which is why i don't even bother about it, and my druid (that could use stat-changing) is working towards the WvW one.

    In neither of the cases have i cared about what envoy armor "signifies". Because to me it signifies nothing.

    And that's just you. This argument goes both ways, you know. However, you have stated on many occasions that you didn't like raiding and basically "suffered through" the process of getting the Envoy. That's not the typical raider's experience - the typical raider keeps raiding because they enjoy it. So I'm inclined to think more people would agree with me and find significance in the armor, than agree with you. Since, you know, it's a raider's thing.

    The key word here is “think”. People likely do fall into the trap though, they don’t like raiding, but they still want the armor. I know a few myself.

    I guess the purist would do the raiding regardless of the reward, if you think about it.

    That's just going black-or-white. Nobody is so purist, it all affects the decision making, just differently. But you can still make some observations about the "typical" raider. And the typical raiders keep raiding long after they got their armor(s).

    You gotta be careful with using absolutes, you can’t say a statement like “Nobody” does this, when you yourself aren’t omniscient.

    The only absolute I used is refuting another absolute, introduced by you. Unless you're omniscient yourself, you can't use an absolute either, following your own logic. And in any case, the burden of proof would lie with you, so my refutation is perfectly valid until you provide a proof for your own absolute claim.

    Sorry, come again, where did I make an absolute claim? Your telling me nobody is so purist, to strictly do raids without caring about the rewards.

    Precisely in the claim I challenge with this sentence. You're implying an absolute level of purism. You should prove it, or you have no grounds to attack my refutation on the basis of being absolute.

    You know, I could easily prove this, by just claiming this about myself... I already have Legendary Armor, really have no use for any of the rewards raids offers, if I step into a raid at this very instance, it’s not to gain a reward. Which would then crush your absolution.

    Oh, I totally believe you play raids for other primary reasons. After all, I do the same myself. But I'm not buying rewards having absolutely no influence at all. You can claim it, but I don't really see how you can prove it. There's some liquid gold, there are the useful raid currencies, there are the ascended drops and there are the raid skins. You can't just dismiss all this, because it ultimately holds at least some importance in the game. The closest you can get to proving your point is if you consistently cleared raids multiple times every week, since the subsequent clears provide very minimal (but technically - still existent) rewards.

    And even then all I'd have to do is add "statistically speaking" in front of "nobody" for my statement to remain valid. :)

    Well for me, I acquired my Legendary Armor through PvP, so the thought of creating a second Heavy Legendary Armor set holds no value, the same can be said for the other set types, I don’t play light and medium classes, so they hold no value to me either. I have so many better ways to acquire gold then to do a single raid encounter, so doing the raid for gold is meaningless. I have all the Legendary Weapons for my profession as well, so any weapon or Armor drops, also don’t add value to me. I literally have zero reason to do any of the raid content.

    And I see what you did there, yes, yes, statistically speaking would then change the entire notion, however you must admit that claiming “nobody” on somethingwith the previous intention is a bit out there. 🙂

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Not to pull you into this Nia, but would you raid regardless of the reward?

    I do it every week, like, I'm killing bosses I've already killed all the kitten week xDDDDD

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S