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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    WvW skins fashionwars and world restructure concern them both. One does not exclude the other. I play wvw on a T1server daily, for 2-6 hours, and both are topics of discussion frequently. I cant imagine why wvwers wouldnt be interested in getting good looking, legendary skins for the game mode they really like.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trust me, they do. It's not a priority, of course, but only because WvW has a lot of much bigger problems.

    Well it must be well hidden outside the game despite what some suggest around here, on a different part of the forums, on a completely different subject. ;)

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

    Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

    I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

    I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

    Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

    I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

    I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

    If you really think that the minmaxing of pve raiding against an AI from snowcrows can be compared to the blatantly laughable "metabattle" wvw builds against human opponents, then you are probably ignorant about what wvw is about, zerging or no zerging.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    WvW skins fashionwars and world restructure concern them both. One does not exclude the other. I play wvw on a T1server daily, for 2-6 hours, and both are topics of discussion frequently. I cant imagine why wvwers wouldnt be interested in getting good looking, legendary skins for the game mode they really like.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trust me, they do. It's not a priority, of course, but only because WvW has a lot of much bigger problems.

    Well it must be well hidden outside the game despite what some suggest around here, on a different part of the forums, on a completely different subject. ;)

    Thats cause wvwers have come to terms with "at least we have out own shinies, leggy armor included". And most wvw comms anf high rank players in my server pay plenty of gold for Warbringer, zephyr backpack, etc etc. It is just that world balance is a more pressing issue.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    I never had difficulty with participation even in situations where my side was wiping a lot. It's not really hard to keep your participation up.

    Then either you don't often find yourself in situation when your side has a pug squad, and the enemies are running organized ones, or you get your participation outside zvz battles.

    When my side is losing badly there is no point in following the tag for zvz battles.

    Because it mostly is. For the veteran WvW players, that is.

    I posted quite a few links above with discussions about changes to WvW, I'm sure there is a healthy discussion about how to improve the game mode, by those that care about it. Notice however, that discussing the skins of the Legendary Armor isn't any kind of priority for the developers, nor the players. The skin of WvW armor is important only in the Raid forums, I'd take a guess by PVE players who couldn't get the Raid armor and went to farm the WvW armor instead and now they complain the set they chose to make isn't looking "Legendary Enough". For actual WVW players? I'd be surprised if it was even on the priority list.

    Actually, those of us who are in WvW guilds will comment on it on occasion. It's not on the top tier list of things we're discussing but it does come up when a balance patch comes out or during gear discussions (which happens a lot in guilds because we DO have fashion wars regardless of what people who do NOT play that mode think). We just don't talk about it in the WvW forums as much because the other concerns are more pressing. We do talk about it in guild, especially when we're discussing options for build changes. When a patch comes out a lot of us start tweaking and re-tuning. The recent Scourge patch had a few of us doing a rethink about how we wanted to play the class/counter the class. The discussion about armor comes up a lot, and then a few of us will be annoyed about the skins. Our current concerns are however over the game-mode a secondary point is about skins and how PVE gets more attention in every way (which again drifts to things like QoL changes for PVE and eventually drifts to skins). While skins are not WvW primary concern right now (the problems I mentioned previously) please do not take it to mean that we haven't noticed the favoritism for who gets the prettiest things.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    WvW skins fashionwars and world restructure concern them both. One does not exclude the other. I play wvw on a T1server daily, for 2-6 hours, and both are topics of discussion frequently. I cant imagine why wvwers wouldnt be interested in getting good looking, legendary skins for the game mode they really like.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trust me, they do. It's not a priority, of course, but only because WvW has a lot of much bigger problems.

    Well it must be well hidden outside the game despite what some suggest around here, on a different part of the forums, on a completely different subject. ;)

    Thats cause wvwers have come to terms with "at least we have out own shinies, leggy armor included". And most wvw comms anf high rank players in my server pay plenty of gold for Warbringer, zephyr backpack, etc etc. It is just that world balance is a more pressing issue.

    Exactly! World balance is our most pressing issue, but just because we don't complain constantly about skins doesn't mean we've not noticed the favoritism both in QoL and in the "shinies" department.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

    Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

    I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

    I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

    I'd argue that guild zergs are organized... There are full guilds out there that have entire guild builds required to be used while in the guild (or running with the guild). If you're doing guild "raids" (what zerging is referred to in wvw) then you're running the guild build, your on the guild voice, and you're following a closed squad to do what the guild is trying to do. However those builds are also built on what they are expecting of each specific member of the guild (they will assign a build to specific players based on play-style NOT based on "meta" as used as a term in pve, but on what is the most common build combinations being encountered currently and used as a "counter" to that.) This is a common thing with Fight Guilds and Havoc guilds. There are community guilds that don't do this but they do have "recommended" builds that are "suggestions" for different classes/tasks etc. There's a LOT that goes into those discussions. Add in that the builds are not "ad hoc" unless the players are new. You have to know precisely what you're encountering and how to counter it. The current meta involves a lot of AOE and condi spam, the previous meta was all about boons. The boon corruption on Scourges is a direct counter to the Boon spam from the previous meta but the continued AOE spam is a pain. There are builds optimized for handling these in a "zerg" (front/mid/backline) group but the zerg is fluid so even if the word is "front, mid-line,back-line" being in those positions is difficult based on terrain and enemy map movements. Plus stacking... If you're getting bursted you need toughness/vitality or you need to learn your escapes better (if your class isn't very good at escaping then you need to change your armor to survive burst). It's a model that gets tweaked a lot. You are claiming there are "optimal builds" for this equation but you're ignoring the part where you are building to counter someone else's build and you don't get to have the numbers on it up front.

    You're saying following a scripted encounter is "better organized" than a guild 40-50 man zerg all on voice coms? I'd say it depends entirely on the guild and the make-up. I'd also say that those who manage it are probably better organized than people running raids, because there's so many more variables that they have to account for.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    WvW skins fashionwars and world restructure concern them both. One does not exclude the other. I play wvw on a T1server daily, for 2-6 hours, and both are topics of discussion frequently. I cant imagine why wvwers wouldnt be interested in getting good looking, legendary skins for the game mode they really like.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Trust me, they do. It's not a priority, of course, but only because WvW has a lot of much bigger problems.

    Well it must be well hidden outside the game despite what some suggest around here, on a different part of the forums, on a completely different subject. ;)

    Because the other concerns are more important right now. Just because it's not a "frequent" discussion on the discussion boards doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you ask WvW players whether or not they want shiney looking armor they will unanimously say "Yes". (Ok except for that roamer whose got a full Legendary set but is dressed down in beginner armor so that he can surprise the enemy who thinks he's a free bag). Just because we're not discussing it constantly on discussion boards doesn't mean it's not a concern.

    Ask anyone in WvW if they think PVE is the favorite? Ask them if they think PVE gets all the shiney things? Ask anyone in WvW if they think it's fair that PVE gets all of the shiney things and then think it's totally ok to compare their PVE builds to WvW builds and think they're somehow superior? (I am aware this statement doesn't represent everyone here but there is a sort of weird elitism that comes out of PVE and there's a different kind of elitism that can come out of the WvW and SPvP side, I am also aware that both sides can be guilty of being jerks about it).

    When you ask what the pressing concerns are for WvW you will get exactly the most pressing ones because those are the biggest problem with the game mode right now. If you had a broken Raid Wing where the rewards were completely Universal but there was a very annoying Boss at the end that constantly summoned monsters on you for hours on end. That you could win for a bit but the encounter went on for a week before it gave "credit"... Now add in that you didn't actually have to fight this Boss to get the same Reward. I doubt very seriously you'd be wanting to fight said Boss. I'm also pretty sure that for a while the entire Raid Boards would be about said Boss and it's "innate issues" and the fact that while you still get the Reward there's no point to even have that Boss in the first place... Right?

    You wouldn't be talking about the shiney rewards because the main problem is the Boss that isn't needed and is an added irritant plus the requirement of facing said boss in a week-long encounter.

    This is the closest explanation I can give as to why you're not seeing it dominate or even blip on the radar. Right now the biggest problem is server balance and coverage. Right now the Tier system (which is the entire way WvW operates) is meaningless. None of the fights matter, you get the same reward no matter what Tier your in. You do not have to fight the server who has higher coverage than you, you can skip that part by throwing the match. It is also possible to get a 3 way tie.

    That is basically the reason you're NOT hearing the issues about shinies from WvW. We have bigger problems to deal with and when those are fixed we will begin addressing the other QoL issues. Right now though, this is a major flaw in the Mode and needs to be Addressed first, we'll talk Shinies after.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Oh please... not that "scripted encounter pile of dolyak kitten again. Like it or not, pretty much everything you said about guilds is applicable to raiding. There are more hardcore guilds and there are more casual guilds. And then there are the pugs, a term also used for non-guild zerging in WvW.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Oh please... not that "scripted encounter pile of dolyak kitten again. Like it or not, pretty much everything you said about guilds is applicable to raiding. There are more hardcore guilds and there are more casual guilds. And then there are the pugs, a term also used for non-guild zerging in WvW.

    Except for the fact that you're playing a scripted encounter that can (by your own words) be taught to you by watching vid's and practicing it until you know everything you're supposed to do by heart.

    You can NOT do that in WvW period. The encounters have the same "flavor" but they are never the same. You can know where someone is likely to cata but you can't expect them to always cata from that spot. You can know that a mesmer can portal their entire team through if you didn't sweep carefully but you can't know where that portal is likely to be. You can know that you can get mesmer portal bombed but you won't know the entire build/composition of the enemy zerg that goes through it. You can know that the enemy zerg might run at you but it might turn and run away. You can know that the enemy zerg can turn, hit the back of your zerg or split your zerg in half but you can't know which direction the commander is going to lead the team or whether they have lieutenants that are going to. You can know something is a possibility but till it actually happens all you can do is react.

    There is NOTHING like that in PVE. Once you learn the encounter, it will stay the same (the variations that exist are minor).

    The encounters are completely different and require completely different skillsets.

    There are some strict guilds and some not strict guilds (some trust their members more and some don't, neither one of them is "right".) I would not call a guild that "recommends" a build a casual guild. I think PVE tends to insult people by calling them "casuals" and I resent that kind of talk when discussing WvW guilds. Because many of them invite players they play with constantly and builds are a major discussion as a result. There are guilds that take in newbies and train them how to play the mode. They also teach them how to build. They do not require a build because they teach you precisely what is important to take into account when you're building and they explain where your build went wrong for what you were trying to do. Just because they don't have "requirements" doesn't make them casual. I wish you'd quit dismissing entire groups... It's incredibly frustrating.

    Guilds that are specialist guilds have specialist builds. End of Story. That's fine and everyone accepts that they are not the norm.. Specialist guilds have a place in a WvW server because of their Specialty and they train people to do that specialty. It does not make them superior, it just means that they are specialized. Those builds are also not Meta they are specific to the specialty and to what that guild thinks will work, they are also updated frequently. (You're not going to find them on Metabattles either they are locked to the Guild website or sometimes in their Teamspeak/Closed Discord areas and not shared because they want to keep the "surprise" factor).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    That is basically the reason you're NOT hearing the issues about shinies from WvW. We have bigger problems to deal with and when those are fixed we will begin addressing the other QoL issues. Right now though, this is a major flaw in the Mode and needs to be Addressed first, we'll talk Shinies after.

    Well then I'll wait until the shinnies become the bigger problem of WvW and we can see multiple posts of 93 pages about that subject to make it look important, and obviously outside the Raid/dungeon/fractal subforum because it simply doesn't belong here and of course it doesn't belong on this thread. Can we close this "parenthesis" about WvW now and return the thread to the actual topic? At least I will, this is not only off topic, but pointless too.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    That is basically the reason you're NOT hearing the issues about shinies from WvW. We have bigger problems to deal with and when those are fixed we will begin addressing the other QoL issues. Right now though, this is a major flaw in the Mode and needs to be Addressed first, we'll talk Shinies after.

    Well then I'll wait until the shinnies become the bigger problem of WvW and we can see multiple posts of 93 pages about that subject to make it look important, and obviously outside the Raid/dungeon/fractal subforum because it simply doesn't belong here and of course it doesn't belong on this thread. Can we close this "parenthesis" about WvW now and return the thread to the actual topic? At least I will, this is not only off topic, but pointless too.

    To be perfectly honest, this thread has seen nothing original after maybe the 15th Page. Everything else is just repeating same stuff over and over again.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    That is basically the reason you're NOT hearing the issues about shinies from WvW. We have bigger problems to deal with and when those are fixed we will begin addressing the other QoL issues. Right now though, this is a major flaw in the Mode and needs to be Addressed first, we'll talk Shinies after.

    Well then I'll wait until the shinnies become the bigger problem of WvW and we can see multiple posts of 93 pages about that subject to make it look important, and obviously outside the Raid/dungeon/fractal subforum because it simply doesn't belong here and of course it doesn't belong on this thread. Can we close this "parenthesis" about WvW now and return the thread to the actual topic? At least I will, this is not only off topic, but pointless too.

    Sure, it's off-topic. I wouldn't say it's pointless. The shinies issue should be mentioned to make sure that all modes are aware of the QoL issues and especially when one mode starts getting on a high horse about things (and yes, it's completely fine to call out the elitism from wvw players and spvp players when they're being obnoxious and dismissive. Different skill-sets do not make a person "superior" it just makes them specialized. There's nothing wrong with specializing, there's only something wrong when/ if you think that having your specialization/skills makes you better/superior than/to someone else who doesn't have your specialization.)

    The topic I was interested in was whether or not there would be a training mode added. I'm still interested in at least something like that. It would be interesting to try. I'm not however interested in going into a "training raid" run by a guild. I would like to see/understand the encounter/mechanics without having to sit and watch stupid videos (I do not like watching videos of things.. Personal pet peeve and I learn best by doing something.) I also would rather learn it in a lower pressure situation because the people that I play PVE with are not exactly the "best losers" when it comes to a PVE kind of mob. The only reason I'd set foot in a Raid at this point would be with a Training mode so I could try to get my less than active family members to come play.

    If there were 10 man Fractals or other 10 man content that wasn't raid specific, I'd do that instead. For context: I have a niece and nephew. 2 brothers and sisters in law, my own 3 kiddos and my husband who play on occasion and don't want to do the "map stuff" but want to do instanced stuff. If we're all on at the same time obviously we can pretty much only do raids, I'd love other options but if there was a training option maybe I could herd them into doing it. I would do other instanced content instead because I'm not convinced that they'd actually raid but at this point Raids are the only instanced content that would allow for the numbers. For further context my 2 brothers and sisters in law played EQ and were in top level guilds (both brothers ran a Guild on EQ and were high level raiders there). There was more instanced content (higher numbers allowed) in EQ.

    So, when they're on they ALL want to team up and they want to do instanced stuff (because open world can be laggy depending). As I can't get them to log in without ALL of them logging in and the instanced stuff that would support ALL of us is Raid content... Well you can see the issue right?

    They don't need the rewards per se (though having an incentive to continue the training thing would be more likely to get them to keep going) but they would definitely benefit from having larger group instanced content. I'm not convinced that content should be raids though (my niece and nephew can sometimes work as a team and sometimes can't) but with a training mode/beginner mode it would at least give us an option.

    We attempted the Raid content previously (as mentioned earlier in the thread) it was a waste of 4 hours and everyone who was there hated it. If there'd been a training mode I think the encounter would have gone better and perhaps that would have led to us doing something together more often, and added more cohesion to the group (knowing where to be and what to do. Being able to give precise instructions etc). If we'd had success I know for a fact that this instanced content would have become a daily thing as we gradually learned the encounter and prepared for the real thing.

    As it is they only log in when LW's drop or Expacs drop. They finish the basic content and leave because it's laggy in open world and they can't be in an instance with Family. I'd love a different option or something that would help us learn the Encounter and work our way up to regular mode because I would absolutely LOVE to be able to have all of us play together.

    Edited: because typos and adding context.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Oh please... not that "scripted encounter pile of dolyak kitten again. Like it or not, pretty much everything you said about guilds is applicable to raiding. There are more hardcore guilds and there are more casual guilds. And then there are the pugs, a term also used for non-guild zerging in WvW.

    Except for the fact that you're playing a scripted encounter that can (by your own words) be taught to you by watching vid's and practicing it until you know everything you're supposed to do by heart.

    Except I play both type of organized content and I never saw any basis for the haughtily attitude pvp-ers have toward pve content.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Oh please... not that "scripted encounter pile of dolyak kitten again. Like it or not, pretty much everything you said about guilds is applicable to raiding. There are more hardcore guilds and there are more casual guilds. And then there are the pugs, a term also used for non-guild zerging in WvW.

    Except for the fact that you're playing a scripted encounter that can (by your own words) be taught to you by watching vid's and practicing it until you know everything you're supposed to do by heart.

    Except I play both type of organized content and I never saw any basis for the haughtily attitude pvp-ers have toward pve content.

    You encounter the pvp attitude in response to the PVE superiority attitude (both are wrong). Each requires a different skill-set and is a different specialty. Neither is better than the other per se, just different. sPvP and WvW get annoyed when PVE insists that they're "better" than everyone else because they take on Bosses with scripted flows that can be memorized. I'm not denying that it's hard, nor that learning the pattern requires skill. I'm just saying that just because you can do that doesn't make you "superior" or "better" than I am. I think both sides are reacting to a perceived "superiority" complex. I can acknowledge it takes skill to figure out the timings and rotations to do a scripted encounter. I admit, I get annoyed when someone compares that scripted encounter to the unscripted free-flowing reactionary type of play that I am skilled at and pretends they are the same thing. I also get annoyed when the person who spends time on scripted encounters tries to imply that my ability to know where to be and flank the enemy/supportive pull a downed tank/save a commander or know which of the team to try to save/which to leave behind etc requires "less skill" or is "not as good" as their ability to survive their scripted encounter. I would like the same courtesy that I extend returned. Both require skill but they're not the same skill and neither of them is really comparable when you get down to it. They're different not better/worse.

    Again, they have similarities sure and you might be able to cross-over and use some of those skills in both contexts but to compare them and pretend that it makes either side "superior", it's not a good comparison and it's not a fair one either. I can say till I'm blue in the face that I'm better because I can do that, but it doesn't make that statement true anymore than you can claim that because you do Boss encounters all the time you are better than me, that's also not true. Both are different specialties and can't really be compared side by side because while (similar abilities) they require different skill-sets.

    The problem comes about when one side starts to act as if their skills are superior to the other because of (insert random reasons here) and then the other side gets offended and retaliates (Both groups of players do this whether or not it's an intentional attack doesn't matter. It's the perception that gets the whole thing started).

    When I said PVE builds were binary you took that as an attack on PVE. I was just pointing out that the way PVE plays (the way it's coded) makes those builds make more sense. I got irritated when you tried to claim WvW builds were just as binary (they're not as pointed out). I probably took offense, because I have no idea if you actually meant it as a slight or not and I felt you were misrepresenting WvW as a whole from an outsiders perspective. (You might have felt the same way).

    The loaded words used to describe other players of the game also contributes to it "casuals" is a big one. Grouping an entire group of people together and then using terms to insult them is rude and it sets off the situation as well. When someone starts insulting other's as "casuals" it creates that "us vs them" mentality that then sets up the "PVE vs WvW/sPvP". When a member of a Raid calls a player in WvW a casual, it insinuates that you are better than they are. It doesn't matter what mode they're addressing. That attitude is what sets some of off and then it starts the silly "contest" as to who is actually better. Neither side can win that argument because they require different skills.

    I used PVE to describe the entire PVE population, not specifically Raiders. When speaking of Raiders I was specific. At the same time, I couldn't help but notice the attitude thrown at anyone who played different modes or even open world (which is why I reacted in a way that was defensive). It makes it super easy to be elitist when someone else comes off as if they are superior. Perhaps I was reading into it and if that's the case I'm sorry and if you thought I was trying to be superior I'm sorry for not being more clear. I was trying to point out the differences in the modes and why some of Anet's decisions bothered me. Not claim that my preferred mode was "better than" PVE or Raiding.

    Bringing it back to the whole reason I started in this thread to begin with (I wrote to Mad-doctor). I have family who bought the game and wanted to play together. We played together on EQ, it had more instanced content that we could all join together and play in. Unfortunately the only instanced content that supports the entire group is Raids. I don't want to exclude any members of my family from playing and they experience lag when playing in Open World. If there were a training mode with less pressure that would let the younger members of the family "level up" (learn the moves and have fun with it. Not get frustrated and start raging) I'd be all for it. If they added a different type of instanced content that could accommodate that many I'd join that instead. I was trying to see if perhaps there would be something like that for those of us who have family who need to be "gently" taught how to do things and are willing to learn but aren't the best when it comes to repeated failures (4 hours of wasted time that involved raging teens was NOT fun for anyone involved). Right now they log in for LW's and expacs. Once they get the basic stuff (not even all the skins) they quit. Since we'd have to split into 2 groups to do Fractals etc and when everyone is on everyone wants to play together... Well can you see where I'm coming from?

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    If you're not on voice you are restricted from joining.

    Well, you can still -follow- them around even if you are not on their voice chat, it's not like they can kick you from WvW. Unlike instanced content.

    You could follow them around but you're more likely to die. You can manage it if you're really fast and can keep track of where the commander is. If you see the commander backing up, you back up etc.. But the fighting relies on excellent communication and reflexes of the squad. While some players are really good at following visually, there's information being passed in the coms that are missing if you're not there. Map calls and or calls that are only given in coms. If the call came via com you miss it so you won't know that commander just told everyone to wp to garri for instance. All of a sudden you're alone in enemy territory possibly facing an oncoming squad. Not a fun place to be in. Some commanders do not tag up if they're running a guild squad with coms to prevent people from following them and "messing up" the plan. Especially if they're running guild missions.

    Yeah, I'm active on a few of those threads

    I wonder how high of a priority is the skin of the WvW Legendary Armor for the higher end WvW community/players. Because judging by the complaining on this RAID FORUM about it, it would have you believe that the highest priority of WvW players is how their Legendary Armor looks compared to the Envoy Armor. Although, I seriously doubt, outside PVE players that got their armor in WVW, any actual WVW player cares about it.

    It comes up but not as much as the current problems with WvW. Mainly we're focused on world/server balance issues and class balance issues (AOE spam, Boon Spam and Condi spam plus the need for more options to deal with said spam). Not to mention other QoL problems (sieges, walls, etc) After you get through those issues the topics of QoL come up. Mainly rewards for tiers (lack of them), lack of shinies etc. If you check out the "lack of rewards" part for tiers, you'll see the comments about lack of shinies and the complaints that PVE gets the nicest/best shinies.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

    Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

    I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

    I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

    If you really think that the minmaxing of pve raiding against an AI from snowcrows can be compared to the blatantly laughable "metabattle" wvw builds against human opponents, then you are probably ignorant about what wvw is about, zerging or no zerging.

    And if you think WvW zerging compares to the actual skill and even playing field provided by SPvP it's blatantly laughable.

    sPvP has some really good skill. I can tell someone in WvW who is highly ranked in sPvP the skill difference is immediate (and they're my favorite players to keep alive in a blob/zerg because they're the most effective at what they do). I'm working on getting better at it but my twitch skills are way past their prime. I'm better as a supportive style player still. As long as I'm alive the most effective members of the group aren't going down and if it's a choice between getting them up and possibly going down, I'll take the risk. I'm more likely to survive if I bring up a skilled player than if I try to save someone who is constantly getting downed (downed penalty was fun, but it made me have to completely change my playstyle for a week).

    I would argue that there are different skillsets required in WvW other than just fighting but if you're roaming, you have to be able to fight and if you meet someone stronger you better know how to escape.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:
    That is basically the reason you're NOT hearing the issues about shinies from WvW. We have bigger problems to deal with and when those are fixed we will begin addressing the other QoL issues. Right now though, this is a major flaw in the Mode and needs to be Addressed first, we'll talk Shinies after.

    Well then I'll wait until the shinnies become the bigger problem of WvW and we can see multiple posts of 93 pages about that subject to make it look important, and obviously outside the Raid/dungeon/fractal subforum because it simply doesn't belong here and of course it doesn't belong on this thread. Can we close this "parenthesis" about WvW now and return the thread to the actual topic? At least I will, this is not only off topic, but pointless too.

    To be perfectly honest, this thread has seen nothing original after maybe the 15th Page. Everything else is just repeating same stuff over and over again.

    Yeah, pretty much.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

    Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

    I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

    I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

    If you really think that the minmaxing of pve raiding against an AI from snowcrows can be compared to the blatantly laughable "metabattle" wvw builds against human opponents, then you are probably ignorant about what wvw is about, zerging or no zerging.

    And if you think WvW zerging compares to the actual skill and even playing field provided by SPvP it's blatantly laughable.

    WvW, especially roaming wvw, comes waaaay closer to spvp than pve comes to wvw zerging, but I would supoose you know that already. Spvp stats are more limited, so in a way, builds should tend to get More predictable. Spvp has its own beauty, it is of course harder to play because of human enemies who can change their playstyle according to the environment, positioning, everything. But then, again, I would supoose you already know that. So, I cant really see the point of that strawman argument you just pulled off, there.

  • Ferelwing.8463Ferelwing.8463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Ferelwing.8463 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Literally every raider I know plays multi class and if they're heavy, for example will swap between power,condi, and hand kiter from fight to fight in a single night of raiding across three classes.

    I know a number of raiders like that (condi berserker, power dh, handkiting/healing rev, for example. Or weaver, chronotank, condi mirage, condi scourge, for an light armor example). None of them transfer armor sets between characters, even if they have a legendary (and most of them do have it). They all have separate characters for that, all with full gear.
    The only case of actual use of legendary armor i saw was on chronotank that was switching back and forth between commander and minstrel setup.

    Basically, changing stats is one thing. Transferring gear between characters and changing stats on top of it is way too much of a hassle for most people to actually do that. Eeven people with legendary gear usually just get an additional (ascended) set for that.

    I was trying to point out that the stat choices in PVE are binary. Before I set foot into WvW I thought the majority of the stat combinations were obsolete and useless. It surprised me that Anet even offered them because I couldn't figure out who would need them. It was either Condi or Zerkers. After stepping into WvW it was an eye-opener and I find myself experimenting with different stat combinations, the problem being that I'm still working on the Legendary set in WvW so having 3 toons that I play exclusively in WvW with several different ascended gear sets (based on what I will need based on server population and what kind of build is needed at the time..) has made a mess of my inventory and bank space. Legendary Armor will be a space saver!

    WvW and raids are completely different. Raids are instanced content played by a maximum of 10 people, so the stat choices are very limited; you need to compress as much as possible everything the squad needs (DPS, support, etc). A celestial DPS would not deal enough damage, and if DPS started using hybrid gear (gear half supportive half damage), things like dedicated healers like druid would become a waste. But druids not only give heals, you know. Druids are necessary because of the insane amount of utility and damage buffs they give, and that will never be covered by any hybrid or self-sufficient build. Same with chronos. I agree that it's sad that the build diversity in raids is so little, I really really do.

    Aw, come on. Raid meta is twice as diverse as the WvW one. 95% of everything you'll find in a WvW squad is Scourge, Firebrand and Spellbreaker.

    But WvW is not just zerging, you know. Roaming builds are much more diverse. And raid builds aren't diverse, you can't just come up with something completely unique and get it to be usefull. It's either a heal build, a boon build, a condi build or a condi build.

    Yeah well, you can "roam" in the open world PvE on literally anything. Raids are organized cooperative play for a larger number of players, it only make sense to compare it to WvW squad play. GvG or zerging, in either case the meta is very restrictive.

    Umm... Roaming in WvW means something completely different than it does in PVE. Roaming means going out and running into other enemies whose builds you won't know till the encounter starts. Skill, build etc can determine whether you make it out (knowing your escapes etc). Open World? You don't need defensive stats and you're actually punished for taking them.

    I'd say Zerging is the only time it gets restrictive and it completely depends on the guilds/servers etc but even then, PUG's don't care as much and some guilds encourage their members to try different builds out so we can optimize towards what we're trying to do. I have lots of builds as a result.

    I'm well aware what does "roaming" stand for in WvW, even I don't actively do it. The point is, it makes no sense to compare highly organized to (almost) unorganized play in terms of meta variance. Obviously the unorganized one will be much more diverse. But a much more sensible comparison would be organized vs organized, as both game modes feature this. And then you see the same type of restrictive meta in both.

    If you really think that the minmaxing of pve raiding against an AI from snowcrows can be compared to the blatantly laughable "metabattle" wvw builds against human opponents, then you are probably ignorant about what wvw is about, zerging or no zerging.

    And if you think WvW zerging compares to the actual skill and even playing field provided by SPvP it's blatantly laughable.

    WvW, especially roaming wvw, comes waaaay closer to spvp than pve comes to wvw zerging, but I would supoose you know that already. Spvp stats are more limited, so in a way, builds should tend to get More predictable. Spvp has its own beauty, it is of course harder to play because of human enemies who can change their playstyle according to the environment, positioning, everything. But then, again, I would supoose you already know that. So, I cant really see the point of that strawman argument you just pulled off, there.

    I'm going to have to disagree a little, roaming may be more like sPvP but I'd argue that quite a lot of fight guilds are made up of sPvP ranked players and they're more likely to be the front line/midline of any well composed zerg. sPvP players have an advantage over those coming to WvW from PVE in that they already know which classes to focus immediately and how to avoid some of the incoming damage. Most highly skilled sPvP players only get downed when they get hit with the cc chains that are more common in WvW and not able to be pulled off in sPvP due to numbers. We've all experienced that chain Firebrand pull after pull after pull that lands you right under the bubble and on top of all the scourge circles. If you've got any invulns left you might get out of it but generally speaking you're low enough that Ranger/Holo is more likely to just finish you off. It's more common when defending a base though then in a full on zerg. I'd argue that they're ok in a blob/zerg on the whole but they sometimes get overconfident and get downed/killed (to be fair though anyone can get to that point especially if you've managed not to die in the previous encounters).

    Now, I would say that just because sPvP teaches you what to expect from enemy classes it does not overall mean that you're "better than" any of the other types of players. Your skills are specialized to fighting, other people specialize in supporting that. I can pull up to 5 players to me in a fight, I will prioritize those with the highest skill level (or the Commander/Lieutenants) when I'm in a zerg. I don't do it to be mean but I have limited resources/time/choices so I have to prioritize who I can save and who I can't. This kind of play style isn't easy and it's completely different from "fight" oriented play-styles. Positioning is key because if I try this tactic and I'm too close to the enemy everyone I just tried to save will die and so will I. If I'm too far away then I won't be saving anyone. That style of play is hard to pull off but I enjoy it because of the difficulty. I like to play a lot of mid-line support classes because my twitch skills are never going to be peak again so while I know what to do and where to be, if it requires a twitch reaction time I just have to accept my fate. I know how to corrupt boons, where to place shades etc.. If I'm running an ele then I'm running condi cleanses and am that boon support. At the same time I'm also part of the AOE damage that's used for zone control (both my scourge and ele are both supportive and zone control). It doesn't mean I can't fight, just means that I know I can be beaten by someone who is younger and faster than me. If I come across someone like that, I will wisely not take that fight (if I'm not already dead). Strategically retreating and alerting someone with faster reflexes that someone worthy of their skill is around is my general response. I'm not above teaming up with someone else though to take them down (It is about protecting territory after all, but I'm aware of my own limitations).

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Current poll numbers:

    • Easy and Hard = 49% - 406
    • Only Easy = 7% - 64
    • Only Hard = 7% - 62
    • Raids are fine = 27% - 229
    • Other solution = 7% - 61

    Combined:

    • Easy = 56% - 470
    • Hard = 56% - 478
    • Easy or Hard = 63% - 532
    • Unhappy current state of raids = 70% - 593
    • Against difficulty modes = 34% - 290

    Anyway, during the last AMA, we were informed that the raid team has merged with the fractal team. You know what this means, I already called it in page 1 of this very thread.

    If we want raids to survive as a game mode, they need more people playing them, and difficulty modes are the only clear solution.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    It means nothing of the sort.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    Can we just let this topic die. Over 6 month old, has an dev responce saying that it would remove too many resources from raid/fractal devolopement. At this point we are beating a dead horse.

    Honestly, Raids are having a hard enough time to make just a normal mode, let alone different modes. There will only be one raid release for this year and hard to say how many next year, maybe 2. With that cadence it’s not looking good, however what do you expect from just side content.

  • Nick.6972Nick.6972 Member ✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    What arguments can be made against the idea of enabling content to wider playerbase while keeping the original and providing increased difficulty?
    I don't think there are any. The idea is perfectly reasonable.

    Just like with Fractals, people don't go straight to 99/100CM. They first get familiar with normal modes.
    If by default level 99 and 100 had only CMs, far fewer people would play them.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Nick.6972 said:
    What arguments can be made against the idea of enabling content to wider playerbase while keeping the original and providing increased difficulty?
    I don't think there are any. The idea is perfectly reasonable.

    Just like with Fractals, people don't go straight to 99/100CM. They first get familiar with normal modes.
    If by default level 99 and 100 had only CMs, far fewer people would play them.

    Gee it's kinda like we already have Normal modes and CM's for raids too.....

    So what you mean is you want lower than normal because ???

  • Nick.6972Nick.6972 Member ✭✭
    edited July 3, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    So the more casual player can test the raids out, see the mechanics, get familiar with them and maybe make a transition to normal mode.

    Literally nothing would change for the crowd already doing normal modes. They wouldn't lose anything. Their loot wouldn't be taken away. Their "prestige" would remain.

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.
    Other than that, there are absolutely no downsides in enabling content to much wider audience.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Nick.6972 said:
    So the more casual player can test the raids out, see the mechanics, get familiar with them and maybe make a transition to normal mode.

    Literally nothing would change for the crowd already doing normal modes. They wouldn't lose anything. Their loot wouldn't be taken away. Their "prestige" would remain.

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.
    Other than that, there are absolutely no downsides in enabling content to much wider audience.

    There's no validity to uniformly keeping hard content hard ? I respectfully disagree.

    There's plenty of valid reasons for maintaining the status quo. Meanwhile the easy mode arguments pretty much all boil down to the same thing, rewards.
    Why can i say this with extreme certainty ? How many of the easy mode people have done the Sloth Event in Ember bay and found it easy enough and fun enough to repeat ? Same can be said of the Anomaly in Bloodstone fen.

    Your easy mode already exist and i don't see you guys praising it, let alone playing it.

    But it's okay there will be some response about how it's not raids despite using the same assets and same attack patterns because those bosses aren't in their respective raid zones. To which there's only one thing to say...Go raid then.

  • InkTide.1908InkTide.1908 Member ✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    Can we just let this topic die.

    When raid population continues to decline past the point of sustainability, and those who play them move on to newer and better things because raids aren't being released fast enough (there's already not enough people playing them for ANet to justify dedicating a whole team to it), then it will.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @InkTide.1908 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    Can we just let this topic die.

    When raid population continues to decline past the point of sustainability, and those who play them move on to newer and better things because raids aren't being released fast enough (there's already not enough people playing them for ANet to justify dedicating a whole team to it), then it will.

    Once upon time, I agreed with an easy mode, however seeing how incredibly low resources there are for Raids, we should all just be happy that there are any raids at all, because like others have said, they are certainly heading to the realm that dungeons are in.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @InkTide.1908 said:
    there's already not enough people playing them for ANet to justify dedicating a whole team to it

    How do you know? Internal insights or just wild guesses?

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • InkTide.1908InkTide.1908 Member ✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @InkTide.1908 said:
    there's already not enough people playing them for ANet to justify dedicating a whole team to it

    How do you know? Internal insights or just wild guesses?

    The fractal and raid teams used to be separate, and have now merged into a singular team that is most likely skewed towards fractals, as fractal releases reach more players according to GW2efficiency statistics (which themselves are almost always assumed to be skewed more towards the 'hardcore' portion of the playerbase, given the effort involved in setting up GW2efficiency and the lack of any official news or ingame resources mentioning it). It's also likely the merged team is smaller than the original total number of devs for the discrete fractal and raid teams - generally some positions become redundant and people get moved around when team mergers like that happen.

    According to everyone I've seen speak about the issue, the raid population is hemorrhaging players at a rate it can't replace them. Content that's being played by fewer and fewer people is not the kind of content you put more resources into, if other content reaches more players.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @InkTide.1908 said:
    According to everyone I've seen speak about the issue, the raid population is hemorrhaging players at a rate it can't replace them. Content that's being played by fewer and fewer people is not the kind of content you put more resources into, if other content reaches more players.

    See, I don't have any data on the raid population except my own experience pugging. Which I've been doing again lately, for one reason or another. And here's the thing - I don't see that decline you speak of. There are always plenty of players looking to raid and groups fill up quickly. And that's despite the existence of "raid LFG" discord communities used by many people to more conveniently find groups or desired roles for their group. Which would naturally pull some players away from the more limited in-game LFG. But groups on it fill quickly regardless.

    Like it or not, this kind of content has been a success. We've been told as much by devs directly. The merger of the teams isn't really surprising - they're doing the same type of content anyway. It's all team-based instances, the difference in size is irrelevant. It also makes sense to prioritize fractals over raids, however for entirely different reason - raids take much longer to get their content exhausted because they're generally much harder. Like I said in another thread, my guild team only recently scored their first Dhuum kill. Compare this to Deepstone, which gets exhausted after a couple of playthroughs. You know all the mechanics, there's zero chance to fail anything, it's just farm. Most raid bosses never even reach this stage of routine for the majority of groups. Plus, there's the issue with raid releases progressively increasing the time a team needs to do their full weekly clear. An issue which does not exist with fractals, due to their daily rotation system. So yeah. It's only normal raids are released less frequently.

  • Xantaria.8726Xantaria.8726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Rednik.3809 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @InkTide.1908 said:
    According to everyone I've seen speak about the issue, the raid population is hemorrhaging players at a rate it can't replace them. Content that's being played by fewer and fewer people is not the kind of content you put more resources into, if other content reaches more players.

    See, I don't have any data on the raid population except my own experience pugging. Which I've been doing again lately, for one reason or another. And here's the thing - I don't see that decline you speak of. There are always plenty of players looking to raid and groups fill up quickly. And that's despite the existence of "raid LFG" discord communities used by many people to more conveniently find groups or desired roles for their group. Which would naturally pull some players away from the more limited in-game LFG. But groups on it fill quickly regardless.

    Like it or not, this kind of content has been a success. We've been told as much by devs directly. The merger of the teams isn't really surprising - they're doing the same type of content anyway. It's all team-based instances, the difference in size is irrelevant. It also makes sense to prioritize fractals over raids, however for entirely different reason - raids take much longer to get their content exhausted because they're generally much harder. Like I said in another thread, my guild team only recently scored their first Dhuum kill. Compare this to Deepstone, which gets exhausted after a couple of playthroughs. You know all the mechanics, there's zero chance to fail anything, it's just farm. Most raid bosses never even reach this stage of routine for the majority of groups. Plus, there's the issue with raid releases progressively increasing the time a team needs to do their full weekly clear. An issue which does not exist with fractals, due to their daily rotation system. So yeah. It's only normal raids are released less frequently.

    Anet have all the statistics, and if moving raid development team to the fractal duty and one raid wing release per year is not clear enough sign for you, then idk what else is needed.

    A statement which can be turned around easily. You can also say they merged both teams together sicne they helped out each others often already, so to improve workprogress they merged both team for better coordination so both get their content faster. Instead of wild guessing maybe stay to facts:
    Anet is the only one who has actual numbers and knows if a mode is succesful or not.

    So let this thread die already. They have stated there wont be a change, and just cause some players in the forum cant let it die they will not start to change that. Like others said, you can see more groups in the lfg on a daily basis then in most other lfg parts unless there is a metaevent, then they get up to the same scale. Does this mean raids are more played then open world? Dont know, ask anet. But dont sell what you believe as facts.

    I would love if they bring a fractallikesystem to raids, making a easy mode as t1, the actual mode as t2 and cms (though bosses who didnt have a cm yet would need them) as t3, making the loot automaticly earned from lower tiers if you do t3 directly. JKust like fracs. But they wont.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rednik.3809 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @InkTide.1908 said:
    According to everyone I've seen speak about the issue, the raid population is hemorrhaging players at a rate it can't replace them. Content that's being played by fewer and fewer people is not the kind of content you put more resources into, if other content reaches more players.

    See, I don't have any data on the raid population except my own experience pugging. Which I've been doing again lately, for one reason or another. And here's the thing - I don't see that decline you speak of. There are always plenty of players looking to raid and groups fill up quickly. And that's despite the existence of "raid LFG" discord communities used by many people to more conveniently find groups or desired roles for their group. Which would naturally pull some players away from the more limited in-game LFG. But groups on it fill quickly regardless.

    Like it or not, this kind of content has been a success. We've been told as much by devs directly. The merger of the teams isn't really surprising - they're doing the same type of content anyway. It's all team-based instances, the difference in size is irrelevant. It also makes sense to prioritize fractals over raids, however for entirely different reason - raids take much longer to get their content exhausted because they're generally much harder. Like I said in another thread, my guild team only recently scored their first Dhuum kill. Compare this to Deepstone, which gets exhausted after a couple of playthroughs. You know all the mechanics, there's zero chance to fail anything, it's just farm. Most raid bosses never even reach this stage of routine for the majority of groups. Plus, there's the issue with raid releases progressively increasing the time a team needs to do their full weekly clear. An issue which does not exist with fractals, due to their daily rotation system. So yeah. It's only normal raids are released less frequently.

    Anet have all the statistics, and if moving raid development team to the fractal duty and one raid wing release per year is not clear enough sign for you, then idk what else is needed.

    Except they didn't move anything. They stated the teams have been merged for "well over an year". Let's assume this happened right after W4 was released in Feb '17. It means we'll be seeing 2 raid wings in 1.5 years from the merged team, as they clearly stated the next raid will be launching with the next episode. This is pretty much the same pace we had from the raid-only team after W3 (Jun '16 - Feb '17). I really fail to see all the doom and gloom preached here.

    Even if they wanted to do more easy mode for Raids judging by the last 3 years of content, they just don’t have the time or the resources to do it, when there is only one raid release for 2018, and possibly two for 2019 giving there pacing and with that expectation, they will probably only be able to ship a single raid wing for 2020.

    Edit: Roughly 4 Raids in the next two years, which depending on where you stand can be a good or bad thing.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @InkTide.1908 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @InkTide.1908 said:
    there's already not enough people playing them for ANet to justify dedicating a whole team to it

    How do you know? Internal insights or just wild guesses?

    The fractal and raid teams used to be separate, and have now merged into a singular team that is most likely skewed towards fractals, as fractal releases reach more players according to GW2efficiency statistics (which themselves are almost always assumed to be skewed more towards the 'hardcore' portion of the playerbase, given the effort involved in setting up GW2efficiency and the lack of any official news or ingame resources mentioning it). It's also likely the merged team is smaller than the original total number of devs for the discrete fractal and raid teams - generally some positions become redundant and people get moved around when team mergers like that happen.

    According to everyone I've seen speak about the issue, the raid population is hemorrhaging players at a rate it can't replace them. Content that's being played by fewer and fewer people is not the kind of content you put more resources into, if other content reaches more players.

    It's probably so they can Coordinate new mechanics between content easily. There have been tons of new mechanics like Fixate, and Special Action skills that were developed by the raid teams that the fractal team only gogot their hands on after the raids introducing them were released. The two teams probably want to be able to coordinate creating and implementing new mechanics with some degree of awareness for what they're both doing.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    Suddenly, these issues don’t seem as important to me any more...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Suddenly, these issues don’t seem as important to me any more...

    Unfortunately, the moment they will become less and less important to me will likely be also the moment when i'll start having any interest in this game.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

    We're at the point where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

    We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

    I have been one of the most vocal advocates of easy mode, and I agree with what you are saying here.

    Raids are in a classic Catch-22 situation. Right now, the niche nature of raids means they have to take a back seat to the rest of the game. It doesn't make sense to dedicate new resources to a mode that is, by their own admission, designed for a smaller percentage of players. At the same time, raiders are not happy with the release cadence. But, to justify adding the resources needed to improve that cadence, they would need to make raids appealing to more players - which would mean a lower barrier to entry for more casual players.

    I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

    Meanwhile, the living world is suffering from all of this. We are getting incomplete maps and metas that were obviously rushed out the door and (again) by their own admission, later than planned. If anything, they need to move current resources from raids to living story. That part of the game is too deeply tied to the identity and success of the game.

    I want raids to succeed and be a part of the game, but I don't see how that can happen long term given the resources they currently have available to them.

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

    We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

    I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

    I agree with pretty much everything you said as well, but i think this statement is putting the "problem" on the hardcore community. IMO, the opposition that you have received in your easy mode suggestions by the raiding community over the past 2.5 years is WAY less than the outbreak that would be fewer living world release for more raid resources.

    IMO it isn't a "hard core players complaining won't let easy mode happen" problem...its a "there's no way the community, the $$$, and ANET's vision align with taking resources away from living world world and put them on raids" problem.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

    We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

    I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

    I agree with pretty much everything you said as well, but i think this statement is putting the "problem" on the hardcore community. IMO, the opposition that you have received in your easy mode suggestions by the raiding community over the past 2.5 years is WAY less than the outbreak that would be fewer living world release for more raid resources.

    IMO it isn't a "hard core players complaining won't let easy mode happen" problem...its a "there's no way the community, the $$$, and ANET's vision align with taking resources away from living world world and put them on raids" problem.

    The problem isn't on any specific group. The problem is simple mathematics.

    Basically, the only way to change anything about the current model for raids (which, again, I think is unsustainable long term) would be for them to hire new resources. They can't take them from the already shorthanded LS team. To bring in new resources for raids, they would have to up the appeal of raids in some way. Shortening the release time from 7 to even as low as 5 months wouldn't accomplish that (hardcore raiders churn through the content in, at most, 2 months). Tweaking old raids to add lower difficulties would bring in more players by lowering the difficulty barrier to entry. With that in mind, should they ever add new resources, it makes sense - from a fiduciary perspective - that the first step would be to use them to expand the target playerbase for raids. Once that is done, they could look at shortening the development cycle.

    Im not saying that will happen. As we both point out, it unlikely that they will add new resources either way - and, if they do, the logical place to do so is on LS, not raids.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    Meanwhile, the living world is suffering from all of this. We are getting incomplete maps and metas that were obviously rushed out the door and (again) by their own admission, later than planned. If anything, they need to move current resources from raids to living story. That part of the game is too deeply tied to the identity and success of the game.

    You can't argue that raids are getting to little attention and at the same time make a statement that the limited resources and developers devoted to raids and fractals would make a meaningful change to the Living World development. This is just you wanting to blame raids for something which they are in almost no connection to. There certainly is things one could blame raids for, lack of Living Story at the current size of the team is most likely not among them. On the contrary, so far the raid development team was always praised how they managed to bring such quality content with such a small team.

    That said, yes the rest is accurate. Instanced content is suffering when viewed from a hardcore raiders perspective. I don't think GW2 will ever be the game which will keep hardcore raiders entertained. For me personally I see raids as an extension and content for people who enjoy the base game and just want an occasional fix of difficult and fun content. Same goes for fractals. I'm not even sure a highly increased release window would benefit the mode that much. People would just burn through the content at an even faster pace (let's face it, a new fractal stays entertaining for maybe 1 day. A new raid for maybe 2 weeks at most for the hardcore crowd).

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

    We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

    I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

    I agree with pretty much everything you said as well, but i think this statement is putting the "problem" on the hardcore community. IMO, the opposition that you have received in your easy mode suggestions by the raiding community over the past 2.5 years is WAY less than the outbreak that would be fewer living world release for more raid resources.

    IMO it isn't a "hard core players complaining won't let easy mode happen" problem...its a "there's no way the community, the $$$, and ANET's vision align with taking resources away from living world world and put them on raids" problem.

    The problem isn't on any specific group. The problem is simple mathematics.

    Basically, the only way to change anything about the current model for raids (which, again, I think is unsustainable long term) would be for them to hire new resources. They can't take them from the already shorthanded LS team. To bring in new resources for raids, they would have to up the appeal of raids in some way. Shortening the release time from 7 to even as low as 5 months wouldn't accomplish that (hardcore raiders churn through the content in, at most, 2 months). Tweaking old raids to add lower difficulties would bring in more players by lowering the difficulty barrier to entry. With that in mind, should they ever add new resources, it makes sense - from a fiduciary perspective - that the first step would be to use them to expand the target playerbase for raids. Once that is done, they could look at shortening the development cycle.

    Im not saying that will happen. As we both point out, it unlikely that they will add new resources either way - and, if they do, the logical place to do so is on LS, not raids.

    You said it better than me. That is effectively what I meant, just worded a bit incorrectly.

    I'm genuinely happy that after all of the discussion after the past few years that we've come to the same ideology/solution/insert other words here.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 7, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

    We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

    I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

    I agree with pretty much everything you said as well, but i think this statement is putting the "problem" on the hardcore community. IMO, the opposition that you have received in your easy mode suggestions by the raiding community over the past 2.5 years is WAY less than the outbreak that would be fewer living world release for more raid resources.

    IMO it isn't a "hard core players complaining won't let easy mode happen" problem...its a "there's no way the community, the $$$, and ANET's vision align with taking resources away from living world world and put them on raids" problem.

    The problem isn't on any specific group. The problem is simple mathematics.

    Basically, the only way to change anything about the current model for raids (which, again, I think is unsustainable long term) would be for them to hire new resources. They can't take them from the already shorthanded LS team. To bring in new resources for raids, they would have to up the appeal of raids in some way. Shortening the release time from 7 to even as low as 5 months wouldn't accomplish that (hardcore raiders churn through the content in, at most, 2 months). Tweaking old raids to add lower difficulties would bring in more players by lowering the difficulty barrier to entry. With that in mind, should they ever add new resources, it makes sense - from a fiduciary perspective - that the first step would be to use them to expand the target playerbase for raids. Once that is done, they could look at shortening the development cycle.

    Im not saying that will happen. As we both point out, it unlikely that they will add new resources either way - and, if they do, the logical place to do so is on LS, not raids.

    You said it better than me. That is effectively what I meant, just worded a bit incorrectly.

    I'm genuinely happy that after all of the discussion after the past few years that we've come to the same ideology/solution/insert other words here.

    We more or less do at this point, but for the record, I still believe that raids as they stand now are not sustainable - and will probably not stand the test of time in the game. I would like to see raids as part of the game, but I simply do not see how they can keep hardcore raiders engaged long term. It isn't really a change of heart on my part - just a realization that they simply do not have the resources at ANet to do them in a way that will keep enough players in them long term.

    And, with that in mind, I do strongly believe that any new developmental resources dedicated to raids (which again, should come after any additions to the LS teams who obviously need it right now) would need to first and foremost be used to add easy modes to existing raids - to widen the pool of raiders and justify any future work.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Nick.6972 said:

    The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from other game modes.

    Current state of affairs:

    • Instanced content (raids/fractals) players unhappy with release cadence
    • Open world players unhappy with release cadence
    • WvW players unhappy with mode neglect
    • sPvP players unhappy with mode neglect

    Yeah, you're right. The only valid argument to be made here is that designing an easy mode would take resources away from one or more aspects of ongoing development, and there are plenty of players in all of those areas already unhappy with how infrequent they see anything new. That's a pretty large downside.

    Correct. IMO the only valid opinion for not doing something like this is that it would require resources from other areas (i.e. Living World) to be moved to raids. It's been 2.5 years of discussion about the validity of easy mode content.

    We're at the people where the folks who want easy mode the request needs to change from "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons" to "I want easy mode because of XYZ reasons and I want it at the expense of living world content". If that isn't something folks are willing to sacrifice, then there will be no change.

    I've said it before. Raids in their current form are unsustainable long term in the game. Without compromises that hardcore raiders are dead set against, they cannot justify the resources needed for a release schedule short enough to keep the attention of hardcore raiders the way that raid focused MMOs can - meaning the raiding community in the game will get smaller and smaller over time (which will, in turn, mean fewer resources and longer wait times).

    I agree with pretty much everything you said as well, but i think this statement is putting the "problem" on the hardcore community. IMO, the opposition that you have received in your easy mode suggestions by the raiding community over the past 2.5 years is WAY less than the outbreak that would be fewer living world release for more raid resources.

    IMO it isn't a "hard core players complaining won't let easy mode happen" problem...its a "there's no way the community, the $$$, and ANET's vision align with taking resources away from living world world and put them on raids" problem.

    The problem isn't on any specific group. The problem is simple mathematics.

    Basically, the only way to change anything about the current model for raids (which, again, I think is unsustainable long term) would be for them to hire new resources. They can't take them from the already shorthanded LS team. To bring in new resources for raids, they would have to up the appeal of raids in some way. Shortening the release time from 7 to even as low as 5 months wouldn't accomplish that (hardcore raiders churn through the content in, at most, 2 months). Tweaking old raids to add lower difficulties would bring in more players by lowering the difficulty barrier to entry. With that in mind, should they ever add new resources, it makes sense - from a fiduciary perspective - that the first step would be to use them to expand the target playerbase for raids. Once that is done, they could look at shortening the development cycle.

    Im not saying that will happen. As we both point out, it unlikely that they will add new resources either way - and, if they do, the logical place to do so is on LS, not raids.

    You said it better than me. That is effectively what I meant, just worded a bit incorrectly.

    I'm genuinely happy that after all of the discussion after the past few years that we've come to the same ideology/solution/insert other words here.

    We more or less do at this point, but for the record, I still believe that raids as they stand now are not sustainable - and will probably not stand the test of time in the game. I would like to see raids as part of the game, but I simply do not see how they can keep hardcore raiders engaged long term. It isn't really a change of heart on my part - just a realization that they simply do not have the resources at ANet to do them in a way that will keep enough players in them long term.

    And, with that in mind, I do strongly believe that any new developmental resources dedicated to raids (which again, should come after any additions to the LS teams who obviously need it right now) would need to first and foremost be used to add easy modes to existing raids - to widen the pool of raiders and justify any future work.

    I too have faced the music, the resources are just not there. So for all the complaining about raids coming out faster, just isn’t going to happen, unless you are happy with a fundamental shift in the current format of raids.