I hope anet plan some nerfs to mesmer in wvw too. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I hope anet plan some nerfs to mesmer in wvw too.

Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 19, 2018 in WvW

Fought today a huge amount of condi mirages casting perma 6 illusions/phantasms while they give you every second 10 torment/confu/burning.
I remember mesmer didnt get any nerfs in Balance patch at december 12th to condi spam like every other class. wonder why? i think there should be still a Point in anets to-do-list for that.

atm i think that is totally unfightable, because that class is VERY tanky because of condi bunker stats+that illusions/phantasm spam give you very high pressure and heavy dmg.
that class has mobility like thief + condi spam like scourge + sustain like warrior.

hope anet dont only patch pvp (like they often do) and let wvw skills like they are. some balancing would be great, cause there is no counterplay to that.

Comments

  • ToPNoP.2493ToPNoP.2493 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:
    Fought today a huge amount of condi mirages casting perma 6 illusions/phantasms while they give you every second 10 torment/confu/burning.
    I remember mesmer didnt get any nerfs in Balance patch at december 12th to condi spam like every other class. wonder why? i think there should be still a Point in anets to-do-list for that.

    atm i think that is totally unfightable, because that class is VERY tanky because of condi bunker stats+that illusions/phantasm spam give you very high pressure and heavy dmg.
    that class has mobility like thief + condi spam like scourge + sustain like warrior.

    hope anet dont only patch pvp (like they often do) and let wvw skills like they are. some balancing would be great, cause there is no counterplay to that.

    One trick is, if you hit a toon and it does a certain amount of damage, then you can fight it and win. If the damage is below a certain thresh hold, then you can not win and should run. This decision should be immediate and non negotiable. Don't talk yourself into fighting someone in cheese because they jumping and beckoning, you the op one for choosing your fights.

    Yes I like comms, but sadly I'm allergic to them.

  • Simonoly.4352Simonoly.4352 Member ✭✭✭

    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

  • intox.6347intox.6347 Member ✭✭✭

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Multiclass WvW player
    Theorycrafted builds tester

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Yeah both DE and mesmers can play very safe, very lame builds which pretty much cannot lose a 1v1 or at least can always disengage and reset.

    Don’t fight a condi mesmer in WvW, 99 times out of 100 they’re running PU, high mobility and all but immune to stuns and conditions through elusive mind and incredibly tanky with trailblazer. It’s one of the lamest builds in WvW and no point to fighting.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Yeah both DE and mesmers can play very safe, very lame builds which pretty much cannot lose a 1v1 or at least can always disengage and reset.

    Don’t fight a condi mesmer in WvW, 99 times out of 100 they’re running PU, high mobility and all but immune to stuns and conditions through elusive mind and incredibly tanky with trailblazer. It’s one of the lamest builds in WvW and no point to fighting.

    Oh I love fighting condi mesmers on my bruiser mirage, because 9 out of 10 dont stand a chance 1v1 since their weak condi is rarely a threat for my cleanse, unless they are simply a much better player.

    Spellbreakers are nearly impossible to kill in comparison and a far, far, faaaaaaaar greater threat when roaming. Its basicly pointless to fight them on the same build I can roflstomp condi mesmers on.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Yeah both DE and mesmers can play very safe, very lame builds which pretty much cannot lose a 1v1 or at least can always disengage and reset.

    Don’t fight a condi mesmer in WvW, 99 times out of 100 they’re running PU, high mobility and all but immune to stuns and conditions through elusive mind and incredibly tanky with trailblazer. It’s one of the lamest builds in WvW and no point to fighting.

    Oh I love fighting condi mesmers on my bruiser mirage, because 9 out of 10 dont stand a chance 1v1 since their weak condi is rarely a threat for my cleanse, unless they are simply a much better player.

    Spellbreakers are nearly impossible to kill in comparison and a far, far, faaaaaaaar greater threat when roaming. Its basicly pointless to fight them on the same build I can roflstomp condi mesmers on.

    Sure but you won’t kill the condi mesmer either unless you’re better than them and they didn’t bother to reset when low. They can however, in the lame builds, keep following you till it’s an uneven fight, especially for a DE that really wants that kill.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Yeah both DE and mesmers can play very safe, very lame builds which pretty much cannot lose a 1v1 or at least can always disengage and reset.

    Don’t fight a condi mesmer in WvW, 99 times out of 100 they’re running PU, high mobility and all but immune to stuns and conditions through elusive mind and incredibly tanky with trailblazer. It’s one of the lamest builds in WvW and no point to fighting.

    Oh I love fighting condi mesmers on my bruiser mirage, because 9 out of 10 dont stand a chance 1v1 since their weak condi is rarely a threat for my cleanse, unless they are simply a much better player.

    Spellbreakers are nearly impossible to kill in comparison and a far, far, faaaaaaaar greater threat when roaming. Its basicly pointless to fight them on the same build I can roflstomp condi mesmers on.

    Sure but you won’t kill the condi mesmer either unless you’re better than them and they didn’t bother to reset when low. They can however, in the lame builds, keep following you till it’s an uneven fight, especially for a DE that really wants that kill.

    Eh the only way they escape is if they run before engaging. Most dont. Remember I said I was running a bruiser mirage, so similar mobility. Most runners die to greatsword autoattacks as you follow. You can get them down to 50% hp before they even start getting their condi on you, the rest is just mopping it up and timing shatters between evades, which is easy when said 9 out of 10 run meta builds using predictable meta tactics (even though they hurt alot more thieves behave similar, making most of them easy kills too).

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • intox.6347intox.6347 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Yeah both DE and mesmers can play very safe, very lame builds which pretty much cannot lose a 1v1 or at least can always disengage and reset.

    Don’t fight a condi mesmer in WvW, 99 times out of 100 they’re running PU, high mobility and all but immune to stuns and conditions through elusive mind and incredibly tanky with trailblazer. It’s one of the lamest builds in WvW and no point to fighting.

    Oh I love fighting condi mesmers on my bruiser mirage, because 9 out of 10 dont stand a chance 1v1 since their weak condi is rarely a threat for my cleanse, unless they are simply a much better player.

    Spellbreakers are nearly impossible to kill in comparison and a far, far, faaaaaaaar greater threat when roaming. Its basicly pointless to fight them on the same build I can roflstomp condi mesmers on.

    We talking about hating fire, and you say you can beat fire easily with napalm :D power mesmer is same abomination as condi variant :D both are way to hard to duel.... i know that ... i have 3 roaming mesmers and iam mostly bored from gameplay

    Multiclass WvW player
    Theorycrafted builds tester

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2018

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Yeah both DE and mesmers can play very safe, very lame builds which pretty much cannot lose a 1v1 or at least can always disengage and reset.

    Don’t fight a condi mesmer in WvW, 99 times out of 100 they’re running PU, high mobility and all but immune to stuns and conditions through elusive mind and incredibly tanky with trailblazer. It’s one of the lamest builds in WvW and no point to fighting.

    Oh I love fighting condi mesmers on my bruiser mirage, because 9 out of 10 dont stand a chance 1v1 since their weak condi is rarely a threat for my cleanse, unless they are simply a much better player.

    Spellbreakers are nearly impossible to kill in comparison and a far, far, faaaaaaaar greater threat when roaming. Its basicly pointless to fight them on the same build I can roflstomp condi mesmers on.

    Sure but you won’t kill the condi mesmer either unless you’re better than them and they didn’t bother to reset when low. They can however, in the lame builds, keep following you till it’s an uneven fight, especially for a DE that really wants that kill.

    Eh the only way they escape is if they run before engaging. Most dont. Remember I said I was running a bruiser mirage, so similar mobility. Most runners die to greatsword autoattacks as you follow. You can get them down to 50% hp before they even start getting their condi on you, the rest is just mopping it up and timing shatters between evades, which is easy when said 9 out of 10 run meta builds using predictable meta tactics (even though they hurt alot more thieves behave similar, making most of them easy kills too).

    Even more proof mirage and mesmer in general needs to be nerfed.

    To add to the discussion id like to list some absolute kitten that happens when fighting mesmers that arent even playing condition builds.
    I cant possibly be the only one who has been basically one-shot in both spvp and wvw by a gs mesmer or mirage. in wvw its the worst cus they can stealth from far away, get to the right distance and BAM youre dead with no time to react cus they can pull off their dps combo in less than 1 second FROM STEALTH.
    I play Soulbeast, and im using the passive healing trait that heals me for 4.6k ( i have about 450 healingpower ) instead of dying. That would mean the mesmer would have to deal about 21.5K hp to kill me in less than one second. with multiple strikes. think about that.

    If i want to deal 20 k dmg and i even had quickness id still need about 4 seconds and NOTHING to interrupt me or no evades. Combo is Maul, Wordly impact, hilt bash, Maul. that would probably hit for about 20 k on someone with a similar amount of armor. But mesmer can pull off their whole combo in stealth and deal all that dmg so quickly theres no way to counterplay it. i mean.. jesus.

    At least DE has counterplay. it hits hard, but its 1 hit. so traits will proc. they have permastealth.. ok. thats aids. BUT.. you can hear when they are using their skills. ALSO.. most of them have to wait around for a while before they can charge up enough of those thingies to 1 shot you.
    Mesmer? instant. As long as they dont have cooldowns they can just go ahead and pull of their 1shotcombo on you.

    "b-b-but they die easy too cus they are full zerk thats why they can 1 hit you!!" so what? thats terrible game design. thats like saying " well i can only get ONE free kill and then ill get nuked myself cus im playing glass" ...... thing is, nobody should get free kills with no counter play. thats just stupid.

    ANy class or spec that can pull off a combo from stealth that kills you in less than 1 second needs to be removed or nerfed heavily. they ruin the balance of the game completely.

    I am not against dps builds. I much prefer this meta to the old 2015 bunker meta. but nothign has been done to 1 shot mesmers ever.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:
    ANy class or spec that can pull off a combo from stealth that kills you in less than 1 second needs to be removed or nerfed heavily. they ruin the balance of the game completely.
    I am not against dps builds. I much prefer this meta to the old 2015 bunker meta.

    how much damage is oke to be pulled off a combo from stealth? you are right that in most cases DE oneshots do not really come by suprise and you get the chance to avoid them, but depending on the target i face for instance many glass mesmer / FA ele and often against thieves now i can even onehit with a backstab without marking them for up to 20k, then they got even less counterplay then to a mesmer. but in most builds against non glass, backstab doesnt really hit hard. onehitting a glass eles 11645 hp is not really hard, but the damage required to burst such an ele hardly will be enough to kill a bunker.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    ANy class or spec that can pull off a combo from stealth that kills you in less than 1 second needs to be removed or nerfed heavily. they ruin the balance of the game completely.
    I am not against dps builds. I much prefer this meta to the old 2015 bunker meta.

    how much damage is oke to be pulled off a combo from stealth? you are right that in most cases DE oneshots do not really come by suprise and you get the chance to avoid them, but depending on the target i face for instance many glass mesmer / FA ele and often against thieves now i can even onehit with a backstab without marking them for up to 20k, then they got even less counterplay then to a mesmer. but in most builds against non glass, backstab doesnt really hit hard. onehitting a glass eles 11645 hp is not really hard, but the damage required to burst such an ele hardly will be enough to kill a bunker.

    thats the never ending problem of gw2. they want things balanced for wvw.... so they add absurd bunker builds and absurd dmg builds as countermeasures.
    the bunker builds in wvw are far too strong to ever die in 1v1. maybe that is fair, maybe it is not. the dps builds that can take down said bunker builds are wayy too strong in small scale or 1v1.

    I dont like bunker meta.. but being able to "not die" in 1v1 or 2v2 isnt as good as being able to 1 shot someone 1v1 from stealth. especially when you arent aware that they are about to burst you ( like mesmers ). DE has decent game design other than SA making them also unkillable which is just aids if they keep following you around after trying 10 times but fail their 1 shot and then they laugh and jump on your corpse when you died after their 11th try.

    Give 1 shot mesmers counterplay and im happy tbh. but anet will never do that ofc cus they hardly ever nerf mesmers.

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If it's broken in 1v1 than fix it for 1v1. If it's broken in large scale, then fix it for large scale. Simple as that!

    Except it isn't simple, because basically to even vaguely balance things across WvW/PvP/PvE and all the different situations within from 1v1 to blobs, you would have to make how you can build characters much, much more restrictive, which would mean a complete redesign of the trait/skill/weapon/rune/stats systems.

  • mulzi.8273mulzi.8273 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    If it's broken in 1v1 than fix it for 1v1. If it's broken in large scale, then fix it for large scale. Simple as that!

    Except it isn't simple, because basically to even vaguely balance things across WvW/PvP/PvE and all the different situations within from 1v1 to blobs, you would have to make how you can build characters much, much more restrictive, which would mean a complete redesign of the trait/skill/weapon/rune/stats systems.

    add in a .25/.50 cast time on each skill in the cheese shot. That would address the 5-6 skills at once one-shot cheese. For condi mesmer or any stealth class, make it so you cannot stealth if you have condi/dmg ticking on a target. At least puts some risk involved with it, without affecting group play much.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:
    If i want to deal 20 k dmg and i even had quickness id still need about 4 seconds and NOTHING to interrupt me or no evades. Combo is Maul, Wordly impact, hilt bash, Maul. that would probably hit for about 20 k on someone with a similar amount of armor. But mesmer can pull off their whole combo in stealth and deal all that dmg so quickly theres no way to counterplay it. i mean.. jesus.

    If my post is proof that mesmer and mirage "in general" is OP and needs to be nerfed, then by proxy a situation me and my guildie was in the other day mean that the soulbeast with lb/gs is super OP and definetly need to be nerfed. He also runs power mirage and met a soulbeast while I was a fair distance away. When I arrived, he was dead. My guildie the power mirage I mean. Not the soulbeast. I engaged him and god kitten. He did so much damage while being tough as nails to deal damage to. I got him down to like 60% a couple of times over the minute or so worth of fighting, but he just healed up everything and wore me down with the greatsword more than the longbow (he knew how to fight mesmers with traited reflect). So that soulbeast killed two mirages in quick succession. Dont ask me what build he used - I havent a clue. Its one of those situations where you go "I wish I could play soulbeast like that cause I instantly die on it".

    Point is, everyone is kitten OP if you look hard enough.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, it is pretty busted in WvW at least for small fights and roaming. I'm usually keen to engage in 1v1s 1v2s, in WvW when I see them, but if I see a chrono or mirage, I don't bother.

    It's not a fun fight, and I have to outplay them by so much more than I should in order to win. Meanwhile, any mistake on my end is instant death.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    • Underwater mesmer clones now wear aquatic headgear that match what their summoner is wearing.
    • Signet of the Ether: This skill now reduces the recharge of phantasm skills by 50% rather than 100% in PvP and WvW.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • As reading through this - the thing that gets me is the complaint isn't so much about the Mesmer or thief, but about stealth.
    Stealth is a broken and cancerous mechanic, and when paired with hard hitting condi combos becomes OP.

    Maybe stealth should be a boon that can be stripped and/or converted. There needs to be more ways to reveal stealthed ppl. Maybe one of the existing conditions should block stealth from working, or a new condition should be implemented such as an anti-stealth/anti-teleport.

    The other cancer that needs to be addressed is invulnerability. This either needs to become a boon to strip/corrupt or a break bar needs to be implemented. Just straight up invuln is a broken mechanic.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rasp Sabreblade.5421 said:
    As reading through this - the thing that gets me is the complaint isn't so much about the Mesmer or thief, but about stealth.
    Stealth is a broken and cancerous mechanic, and when paired with hard hitting condi combos becomes OP.

    Maybe stealth should be a boon that can be stripped and/or converted. There needs to be more ways to reveal stealthed ppl. Maybe one of the existing conditions should block stealth from working, or a new condition should be implemented such as an anti-stealth/anti-teleport.

    The other cancer that needs to be addressed is invulnerability. This either needs to become a boon to strip/corrupt or a break bar needs to be implemented. Just straight up invuln is a broken mechanic.

    the main complaint about stealth is a stealth opener. no condition preventing stealth or reveal skill will help you there.

    mid fight short stealth is rather weak defense in 1vs1, decent target break in group fights.
    long stealth mid fight is prett much resulting in a reset for both, tho in case of SA thief, the thief will reset alot faster. but aside from that it is as any other disengage.

    such a condition or reveal skills will only adress midfight stealth, wich IMO is fine in most cases and wont help with the issue people have with stealth -> oneshot.

    the only good way i can think of to reduce stealth ganks is to add a tell, for example stealth noise: creating sound of footsteps while in stealth, louder when closer or multiple opponents in stealth.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just have to look at world of warcraft to get some hints on how to deal with stealth.
    There's a distinct noise for stealth (no matter the class) when someone is around you in it.
    You can catch an outline glimpse of someone in stealth if they are in front of you and moving.
    When they attack it breaks stealth, their stealth have longer cooldowns, it's used to start or escape combat, not full time use in combat. But they also can't be hit with damage while in stealth if I remember correctly to counter this (been a really long time since I played with stealth there).
    There's no need for kitten like stealth traps and reveal skills only available to certain classes in there.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    If i want to deal 20 k dmg and i even had quickness id still need about 4 seconds and NOTHING to interrupt me or no evades. Combo is Maul, Wordly impact, hilt bash, Maul. that would probably hit for about 20 k on someone with a similar amount of armor. But mesmer can pull off their whole combo in stealth and deal all that dmg so quickly theres no way to counterplay it. i mean.. jesus.

    If my post is proof that mesmer and mirage "in general" is OP and needs to be nerfed, then by proxy a situation me and my guildie was in the other day mean that the soulbeast with lb/gs is super OP and definetly need to be nerfed. He also runs power mirage and met a soulbeast while I was a fair distance away. When I arrived, he was dead. My guildie the power mirage I mean. Not the soulbeast. I engaged him and god kitten. He did so much damage while being tough as nails to deal damage to. I got him down to like 60% a couple of times over the minute or so worth of fighting, but he just healed up everything and wore me down with the greatsword more than the longbow (he knew how to fight mesmers with traited reflect). So that soulbeast killed two mirages in quick succession. Dont ask me what build he used - I havent a clue. Its one of those situations where you go "I wish I could play soulbeast like that cause I instantly die on it".

    Point is, everyone is kitten OP if you look hard enough.

    Soulbeast won't carry someone the way mirage will. A bad soulbeast dies horribly every time. A bad mirage will be carried by the mirage mechanics and can at least run to reset the fight with their multiple teleports if they somehow fail to be any good with the constant target breaking and clone/phantasm spam while getting evade frames with each dodge roll, dodges they can do while cc'ed or immobilized.

  • Optimator.3589Optimator.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Just have to look at world of warcraft to get some hints on how to deal with stealth.
    There's a distinct noise for stealth (no matter the class) when someone is around you in it.
    You can catch an outline glimpse of someone in stealth if they are in front of you and moving.
    When they attack it breaks stealth, their stealth have longer cooldowns, it's used to start or escape combat, not full time use in combat. But they also can't be hit with damage while in stealth if I remember correctly to counter this (been a really long time since I played with stealth there).
    There's no need for kitten like stealth traps and reveal skills only available to certain classes in there.

    Doing damage to a stealthed rogue/druid popped them out of stealth last I played, so players of said classes need to avoid AoEs/cleaves/etc. And the reveal you're thinking of is the Flare ability that hunters get. Which actually functions more or less the same as a stealth distruptor trap, except that enemies can see it.

    You can't actually enter regular stealth while in combat, either. Rogue Vanish is the only way I remember to regain stealth in the middle of a fight. Otherwise, you're limited to the very iffy NE shadowmeld.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Optimator.3589 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Just have to look at world of warcraft to get some hints on how to deal with stealth.
    There's a distinct noise for stealth (no matter the class) when someone is around you in it.
    You can catch an outline glimpse of someone in stealth if they are in front of you and moving.
    When they attack it breaks stealth, their stealth have longer cooldowns, it's used to start or escape combat, not full time use in combat. But they also can't be hit with damage while in stealth if I remember correctly to counter this (been a really long time since I played with stealth there).
    There's no need for kitten like stealth traps and reveal skills only available to certain classes in there.

    Doing damage to a stealthed rogue/druid popped them out of stealth last I played, so players of said classes need to avoid AoEs/cleaves/etc. And the reveal you're thinking of is the Flare ability that hunters get. Which actually functions more or less the same as a stealth distruptor trap, except that enemies can see it.

    You can't actually enter regular stealth while in combat, either. Rogue Vanish is the only way I remember to regain stealth in the middle of a fight. Otherwise, you're limited to the very iffy NE shadowmeld.

    Yup to all of that, forgot about flares too but to me isn't really necessary like a stealth trap is, when there's all those other small hints of detection.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2018

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    If i want to deal 20 k dmg and i even had quickness id still need about 4 seconds and NOTHING to interrupt me or no evades. Combo is Maul, Wordly impact, hilt bash, Maul. that would probably hit for about 20 k on someone with a similar amount of armor. But mesmer can pull off their whole combo in stealth and deal all that dmg so quickly theres no way to counterplay it. i mean.. jesus.

    If my post is proof that mesmer and mirage "in general" is OP and needs to be nerfed, then by proxy a situation me and my guildie was in the other day mean that the soulbeast with lb/gs is super OP and definetly need to be nerfed. He also runs power mirage and met a soulbeast while I was a fair distance away. When I arrived, he was dead. My guildie the power mirage I mean. Not the soulbeast. I engaged him and god kitten. He did so much damage while being tough as nails to deal damage to. I got him down to like 60% a couple of times over the minute or so worth of fighting, but he just healed up everything and wore me down with the greatsword more than the longbow (he knew how to fight mesmers with traited reflect). So that soulbeast killed two mirages in quick succession. Dont ask me what build he used - I havent a clue. Its one of those situations where you go "I wish I could play soulbeast like that cause I instantly die on it".

    Point is, everyone is kitten OP if you look hard enough.

    Soulbeast won't carry someone the way mirage will. A bad soulbeast dies horribly every time. A bad mirage will be carried by the mirage mechanics and can at least run to reset the fight with their multiple teleports if they somehow fail to be any good with the constant target breaking and clone/phantasm spam while getting evade frames with each dodge roll, dodges they can do while cc'ed or immobilized.

    A bad mirage wont get carried much better than a bad soulbeast. Bad mirages and mesmers in general are about as easy to kill. And if you want to talk about being carried then mesmer isnt all that impressive regardless - there is a reason its one of the rarest classes seen in WvW (even in smallscale). The spellbreaker is a far greater offender in that area, just pick adrenal health, healing signet and lean back, congrats you just became near unkillable against anything that doesnt bring a ton of condi, just full counter them to death. Which of course lead to the scourge, that kind of condi overload can make even the worst player a significant threat just by facerolling the keyboard, yes even in 1v1.

    But granted, the only class I consider "not carriable by any of its mechanic" is the elementalist, simply because the more you look into it, the more kitten complicated it gets.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Yeah both DE and mesmers can play very safe, very lame builds which pretty much cannot lose a 1v1 or at least can always disengage and reset.

    Don’t fight a condi mesmer in WvW, 99 times out of 100 they’re running PU, high mobility and all but immune to stuns and conditions through elusive mind and incredibly tanky with trailblazer. It’s one of the lamest builds in WvW and no point to fighting.

    Oh I love fighting condi mesmers on my bruiser mirage, because 9 out of 10 dont stand a chance 1v1 since their weak condi is rarely a threat for my cleanse, unless they are simply a much better player.

    Spellbreakers are nearly impossible to kill in comparison and a far, far, faaaaaaaar greater threat when roaming. Its basicly pointless to fight them on the same build I can roflstomp condi mesmers on.

    Spellbreakers shines better in group fights because full counter is so easy to proc on those fights.

    In solo core warrior is superior because can land a stun and oneshot you with axe burst, unless you play a crazy tanky build.

    Spellbreakers 1v1 are not impossible to defeat and actually i have to much fun fighting a sb, obvious animations to dodge, don't proc full counter, kite etc.

    Fighting a mesmer i have no clue what to do, since there are constantly 10+ clones on the screen spammed, dunno when to dodge (apart from gs skills on power mesmer), but the other variants are just lame, cheesy and unfun to play against.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    there is a reason its one of the rarest classes seen in WvW (even in smallscale)

    My experience of late (in NA T3) has been the exact opposite. Mesmers galore in smallscale/roaming, mirages in particular. Power mirages far more frequently than condi.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    there is a reason its one of the rarest classes seen in WvW (even in smallscale)

    My experience of late (in NA T3) has been the exact opposite. Mesmers galore in smallscale/roaming, mirages in particular. Power mirages far more frequently than condi.

    T1 EU, I see a lot trying the high defence chaos, insp chrono build, I see a lot of them dying too. I see far more power shatter mesmers than that build or phantasm spam mesmers most of them run PU and spend half their time in stealth. Even then I don’t see them representing more of the roaming population than any other class.

    I would say thief, mesmer, ranger, warrior (Sb and core) and holo are all mostly equally represented from the servers I’ve seen because they all have low risk high mobility reward builds.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Fighting a mesmer i have no clue what to do, since there are constantly 10+ clones on the screen spammed, dunno when to dodge (apart from gs skills on power mesmer), but the other variants are just lame, cheesy and unfun to play against.

    Well not contantly...

    Look the real issue here is who do mesmers complain to when they meet lame, cheesy and unfun OP mesmers?
    Answer me that, hummingbird.

    (the Signet Of Ether nerf is probably to blaim. It's a sad day for mesmers)

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:
    Fighting a mesmer i have no clue what to do, since there are constantly 10+ clones on the screen spammed, dunno when to dodge (apart from gs skills on power mesmer), but the other variants are just lame, cheesy and unfun to play against.

    Well not contantly...

    Look the real issue here is who do mesmers complain to when they meet lame, cheesy and unfun OP mesmers?
    Answer me that, hummingbird.

    (the Signet Of Ether nerf is probably to blaim. It's a sad day for mesmers)

    Even pretty new players after a week of playing it just become good and cancerous at the profession.

    A bad player can kill a more skillful player just because of the profession.

    A good rank 3000 guy with years of experience is nearly unkillable unless he mess up somehow.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    If i want to deal 20 k dmg and i even had quickness id still need about 4 seconds and NOTHING to interrupt me or no evades. Combo is Maul, Wordly impact, hilt bash, Maul. that would probably hit for about 20 k on someone with a similar amount of armor. But mesmer can pull off their whole combo in stealth and deal all that dmg so quickly theres no way to counterplay it. i mean.. jesus.

    If my post is proof that mesmer and mirage "in general" is OP and needs to be nerfed, then by proxy a situation me and my guildie was in the other day mean that the soulbeast with lb/gs is super OP and definetly need to be nerfed. He also runs power mirage and met a soulbeast while I was a fair distance away. When I arrived, he was dead. My guildie the power mirage I mean. Not the soulbeast. I engaged him and god kitten. He did so much damage while being tough as nails to deal damage to. I got him down to like 60% a couple of times over the minute or so worth of fighting, but he just healed up everything and wore me down with the greatsword more than the longbow (he knew how to fight mesmers with traited reflect). So that soulbeast killed two mirages in quick succession. Dont ask me what build he used - I havent a clue. Its one of those situations where you go "I wish I could play soulbeast like that cause I instantly die on it".

    Point is, everyone is kitten OP if you look hard enough.

    that could've been me doing that but oh well. in that specific case you're talking about differences in player skill. that's not the same as a build being OP or broken. of course if the skill level gap is too big it will always feel like you're fighting someone who is overpowered cus they know how to deal with everything you put up against them. but dueling mesmers ( except 1 shot mesmers that I already addressed ) on my own skill level I can tell something is just completely wrong. one of my friends plays warrior and mesmer and soulbeast. I am a bit better than him on war and sb but his mirage..? there's just no way. I have no chance. he openly admits it feels wrong to use a build so strong in 1v1.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @bigo.9037 said:
    If i want to deal 20 k dmg and i even had quickness id still need about 4 seconds and NOTHING to interrupt me or no evades. Combo is Maul, Wordly impact, hilt bash, Maul. that would probably hit for about 20 k on someone with a similar amount of armor. But mesmer can pull off their whole combo in stealth and deal all that dmg so quickly theres no way to counterplay it. i mean.. jesus.

    If my post is proof that mesmer and mirage "in general" is OP and needs to be nerfed, then by proxy a situation me and my guildie was in the other day mean that the soulbeast with lb/gs is super OP and definetly need to be nerfed. He also runs power mirage and met a soulbeast while I was a fair distance away. When I arrived, he was dead. My guildie the power mirage I mean. Not the soulbeast. I engaged him and god kitten. He did so much damage while being tough as nails to deal damage to. I got him down to like 60% a couple of times over the minute or so worth of fighting, but he just healed up everything and wore me down with the greatsword more than the longbow (he knew how to fight mesmers with traited reflect). So that soulbeast killed two mirages in quick succession. Dont ask me what build he used - I havent a clue. Its one of those situations where you go "I wish I could play soulbeast like that cause I instantly die on it".

    Point is, everyone is kitten OP if you look hard enough.

    that could've been me doing that but oh well. in that specific case you're talking about differences in player skill. that's not the same as a build being OP or broken. of course if the skill level gap is too big it will always feel like you're fighting someone who is overpowered cus they know how to deal with everything you put up against them. but dueling mesmers ( except 1 shot mesmers that I already addressed ) on my own skill level I can tell something is just completely wrong. one of my friends plays warrior and mesmer and soulbeast. I am a bit better than him on war and sb but his mirage..? there's just no way. I have no chance. he openly admits it feels wrong to use a build so strong in 1v1.

    But how about your mirage compared to your sb vs your friend? If the build is so strong you will beat him. He wont stand a chance. If not... well you said something about skill.

    I'm not saying mesmer isnt strong 1v1, it is. Its always been. But skill matters, yes. I've met warriors that drop in seconds, I've met warriors that are immortal. I've met revenants that are laughably bad and I've met revenants thats roflstomped while I go "kitten was that?!". I've met eles in full glass exploding when you glance at them and I've met eles that was even more immortal than warriors. I've met guardians whose hp goes up and down like a jojo and guardians that die in a single burst. Vanilla, HoT, PoF it doesnt matter. I've been killed by them all. And it shows me nothing except that everyone vary wildly in skill. The only basis for comparison I have... is me. Which was the point.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Mesmer is in no way as strong or relevant in WvW as it is in PvP so the nerfs will or at least should be far less than what is coming to PvP. Actually, Mesmer needs all it can get to deal with the hoards of Scourge that make up 90% of the game mode right now, plus Mesmer has always been limited in the game mode due to illusions not being able to persist long enough (or at all) during larger scale battles. Also, Mesmer condition output was nerfed in three ways - confusion duration was reduced quite a bit AND the passive tick of confusion was pretty much removed AND they removed confusion from all axe skills so you only really have to worry about one large torment stack now in the case of an axe Mirage.

    Mesmer is only a threat in smaller roaming fights which makes up a tiny portion of the WvW experience and it's actually countered very well by S/D Thieves and meta roaming Warrior builds.

    Its like with deadeye... strong against 1v1 ... useless in bigger group play... mesmers are now top duelers.... if i want easy roaming day... i pick one of mine mesmers... but if you join group... you are pretty useless...

    Yes and this is not an excuse to not touch the class in wvw (what Simonoly would like to see).

    If it's broken in 1v1 than fix it for 1v1. If it's broken in large scale, then fix it for large scale. Simple as that!

    But don't say its overpowered state in 1v1 is fine, because it is underpowered in large scale. That's just stupid and completely misses the point.

    Good class design and balancing results in a balanced viability for every spec in every game mode.

    The issue is how do you make a class that is so obviously strong in 1v1, and so poorly performing in zerg combat equally good at both? The roles seem very well defined.

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I got reported last week for winning a 1v3. How dare I? The blasphemy!!!

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arlette.9684 said:
    I got reported last week for winning a 1v3. How dare I? The blasphemy!!!

    Only warriors and thieves are allowed to win 1vX

  • Vivilett.8509Vivilett.8509 Member ✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Rasp Sabreblade.5421 said:
    As reading through this - the thing that gets me is the complaint isn't so much about the Mesmer or thief, but about stealth.
    Stealth is a broken and cancerous mechanic, and when paired with hard hitting condi combos becomes OP.

    Maybe stealth should be a boon that can be stripped and/or converted. There needs to be more ways to reveal stealthed ppl. Maybe one of the existing conditions should block stealth from working, or a new condition should be implemented such as an anti-stealth/anti-teleport.

    The other cancer that needs to be addressed is invulnerability. This either needs to become a boon to strip/corrupt or a break bar needs to be implemented. Just straight up invuln is a broken mechanic.

    the main complaint about stealth is a stealth opener. no condition preventing stealth or reveal skill will help you there.

    mid fight short stealth is rather weak defense in 1vs1, decent target break in group fights.
    long stealth mid fight is prett much resulting in a reset for both, tho in case of SA thief, the thief will reset alot faster. but aside from that it is as any other disengage.

    such a condition or reveal skills will only adress midfight stealth, wich IMO is fine in most cases and wont help with the issue people have with stealth -> oneshot.

    the only good way i can think of to reduce stealth ganks is to add a tell, for example stealth noise: creating sound of footsteps while in stealth, louder when closer or multiple opponents in stealth.

    Curious who here in a zerg , which is the intent of WvW , see stealth as op in particular to a mesmer?

    Does a zerg see a memser as a major threat?

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.