Rant toward pug players on VG. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Rant toward pug players on VG.

Dear pugs. On VG. You CAN'T do no-greens strategy even on 250+ li groups, only statics can do that. Stop wasting my time. I'm not here to do practice runs, I actually want to kill VG.
Solution: do good old 4-men greens, it's slower but we can actually kill VG with it.

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Comments

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Susy.7529 said:
    Dear pugs. On VG. You CAN'T do no-greens strategy even on 250+ li groups, only statics can do that. Stop wasting my time. I'm not here to do practice runs, I actually want to kill VG.
    Solution: do good old 4-men greens, it's slower but we can actually kill VG with it.

    Today I did 50li pug overheal on first try without anyone getting ported/downed. It can be done (and actualy is less chaotic then green strategy since players sometimes miss greens which i unexpected and not that easy to outheal)

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2018

    Not really, i've done overheal on greens with 30-50% pugs on my group.
    Why don't you ask at the beginning? "Hey you going to do greens, or try to overheal?" If you don't like the answer just excuse yourself and leave the party.

  • Susy.7529Susy.7529 Member ✭✭✭

    Good for you, today I had 4 VG runs (2x 150+, 1x 200+ and 1x 250+) and every single one of them failed for that mechanic, it can't simply be bad luck...previous weeks, with old 4-men greens strat we always won 1st or 2nd try.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't know. The last VGs without any requirements went fairly well and outhealing worked. It's luck and LI/KPs aren't realiable skill-indicators anyway.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dont know why it would be a pug problem. This basically can be carried by a single harrier druid. no need for static

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.
    killproof.me/proof/kEyr

  • i have more failure than success with no green. sometime, it goes super smooth but most of the time its wipe. I agree, VG no green is not PUG friendly.

  • Eponet.4829Eponet.4829 Member ✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    @Susy.7529 said:
    Dear pugs. On VG. You CAN'T do no-greens strategy even on 250+ li groups, only statics can do that. Stop wasting my time. I'm not here to do practice runs, I actually want to kill VG.
    Solution: do good old 4-men greens, it's slower but we can actually kill VG with it.

    I've been playing WoW instead of GW2 for the last few months, but how do you even do no-greens now that you can't share distortion? Do you just run like 6 mesmers, defensive statted druid, and warriors/necromancers for their high hp pool?

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eponet.4829 said:

    @Susy.7529 said:
    Dear pugs. On VG. You CAN'T do no-greens strategy even on 250+ li groups, only statics can do that. Stop wasting my time. I'm not here to do practice runs, I actually want to kill VG.
    Solution: do good old 4-men greens, it's slower but we can actually kill VG with it.

    I've been playing WoW instead of GW2 for the last few months, but how do you even do no-greens now that you can't share distortion? Do you just run like 6 mesmers, defensive statted druid, and warriors/necromancers for their high hp pool?

    A lot of people are going to claim it's pretty easy like some already have in this thread, but it's not because team does need some synergy. It's a matter of timing your heals and getting as much aegis as possible so that you can heal through it as soon as it hits. Another thing would be overhealing constantly. I suspect the people claiming this is easy are only barely passing by a "pug" criteria (i.e they are likely raiding with people they are used to play with, by raiding in the same time frame as usual, etc.), or did not attempt this properly after the changes to Druid healing, or are just saving face saying it's easy. Your DPS players might have to pop their own heals in pugs which is already a loss from optimal, and if anyone doesn't do it, fails CC, fails to get Seekers away, or get a blue circle teleport, the whole thing goes boom since the next green is gonna be in as soon as you recover from the resulting mess. Doing greens is easier for people learning because if a single person misses the circle there is still time to recover (and ideally you'd have backups ready), and is harder for the experienced because for some reason they apparently would rather have most bosses be a damage golem.

    To be honest, this whole counting on Heals/Chronos thing is stale as kitten and was an unplanned mess Anet is taking too long to fix. They are taking so long in fact, that people now actively defend that we should remain able to skip mechanics by overhealing or overdamaging (e.g Gorseval updrafts). These mechanics are challenging when enforced, and present what players actually asked for (a challenge!), whereas I think most people do not truly want challenge since they celebrate and defend the fact that they are able to entirely ignore said mechanics. In the (rare) good raid fights such as Matthias and Dhuum, players are held individually accountable for their mistakes and the team also has to pay for it, with no chance for most of the squad to ignore everything in favor of being top benchmarks, even if you want to bring like 3 healers to the fight. The result? People won't even run training pugs for these encounters, and everyone is stuck doing "the easiest path" in VG, Gorse or w4 bosses.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭

    Imo it depends, if the pugs in squad have experience with doing VG with no players standing on greens. It's a different enviroment for players new to the strategy although it's the same encounter. Priority for green circles shifted to seekers, CC breakbar and blue circles that need to be handled accordingly as said. Practice.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is why we're fighting for an easy mode, where more casually-minded players can pug and complete the content successfully without such conflict.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    Seems safer to me to simply outheal (or even better properly time heals) at VG than to expect people to run greens without mistakes. Get two healers if you need to.
    I'd expect anyone at 250+ LI to be able to excute a strategy that has been so commonplace for a long time, what most of us might expect even of pugs. Well, I'd also expect them to run greens properly but that is a different story. And don't get me wrong, I run greens if people want to run greens. Seems silly to me to spend more time on arguing with random pugs than it would take to get the kill.

    What it comes down to is communication. Say what you want and what you are looking - group up with like-minded people. Don't try to convert everyone to your personal beliefs.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    A lot of people are going to claim it's pretty easy like some already have in this thread, but it's not because team does need some synergy. It's a matter of timing your heals and getting as much aegis as possible so that you can heal through it as soon as it hits.
    Another thing would be overhealing constantly. I suspect the people claiming this is easy are only barely passing by a "pug" criteria (i.e they are likely raiding with people they are used to play with, by raiding in the same time frame as usual, etc.), or did not attempt this properly after the changes to Druid healing, or are just saving face saying it's easy.

    It is very easy and you don't need any single aegis because it won't help you against the damage impact from the green explosion. All you need is one or two competent healers that know when to burst heal, a competent tank (you need him with the other tactic as well) and players not getting ported by blues which shouldn't happen if they are in max melee range, watch out and have the ingame sound running if it's not manageable for them otherwise (you can hear the blue ports "building up").
    The nerf to druid didn't change anything for this tactic unless your druids weren't already really skilled before.

    fails CC,

    Should never happen in experienced groups

    fails to get Seekers away

    Druid job (glyph of tides, entangle) and chrono (focus 4) as well. Chronos not being able or not willing to swap weapons are like those 4k dps players, especially the off-chronos.

    or get a blue circle teleport

    As written above: Must - Not - Hapen!

    Doing greens is easier for people learning because if a single person misses the circle there is still time to recover (and ideally you'd have backups ready), and is harder for the experienced because for some reason they apparently would rather have most bosses be a damage golem.

    The discussion is not about people learning it's about experienced players. And if you are not able to execute both tactics you cannot call yourself an experienced raider. Nothing but the truth...
    Also, your logic is failing here. If a single person misses the circle the whole group is receiving the full damage. So there is nothing different from nobody running greens. If you can recover from one player failing to go greens you're automatically able to recover from nobody running them because in this tactic everybody is stacked and far better in range to ress than in the other tactic where it is 4 (3 + 1 anywhere around or worse) vs. hopefully 6 at the boss.


    Imho the overheal tactic is the better one. I've been in so many VG pug groups and even with markers over their head (you can often see that in low LI pugs) people forget going to greens and run tunnel vision mode leading to many fail attempts. Man, I've experienced groups with 5 ppl on greens and they still couldn't manage this.

  • @Vinceman.4572 said:
    It is very easy and you don't need any single aegis because it won't help you against the damage impact from the green explosion. All you need is one or two competent healers that know when to burst heal, a competent tank (you need him with the other tactic as well) and players not getting ported by blues which shouldn't happen if they are in max melee range, watch out and have the ingame sound running if it's not manageable for them otherwise (you can hear the blue ports "building up").
    The nerf to druid didn't change anything for this tactic unless your druids weren't already really skilled before.

    You say it is very easy but then you say that you need competent this and that with tank, druid and players staying on max melee range and whatever else. So easy i guess.
    Its so easy to save the world from North Korea too. Even Trump did it. :)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    @Susy.7529 said:
    Good for you, today I had 4 VG runs (2x 150+, 1x 200+ and 1x 250+) and every single one of them failed for that mechanic, it can't simply be bad luck...previous weeks, with old 4-men greens strat we always won 1st or 2nd try.

    They are probably still running the old 2x GotL druid setup. Which means group heal just went down a lot.

    Although i agree that the overheal strategy is far more risky for new players, because new raid players just can't stack. On the other hand, most pugs aren't that new at all.

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

    Of course they are. The downed players are usually those that got teleported/didn't stack. Which means that with weaker group you start shedding players left and right as soon as you hit 3rd phase and you start running after the boss instead of standing still.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Zaraki.5784Zaraki.5784 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

    With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

    "Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
    The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zaraki.5784 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

    With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

    +1

    Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It depends. Overheal put preasure on tank and healers. Greens put preasure on players responsible for greens. If you play dps its more safe to do greens since you dont know your healers/tank skill but you know your own. On the other hand if you play tank and can distort every/most of the greens, time your well of eternity to heal after explosion and not get ported then overheal is better since you dont need to count on 4 green players.

  • Imperadordf.2687Imperadordf.2687 Member ✭✭✭✭

    PuGs still do greens? What year is this?

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Imperadordf.2687 said:
    PuGs still do greens? What year is this?

    ¿???

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    @Imperadordf.2687 said:
    PuGs still do greens? What year is this?

    Well pugs sometimes wants kiter for cairn. Also met a dps firebrand with toughness > 2390 on vg....

    To your sexond question: 2018

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    It depends. Overheal put preasure on tank and healers. Greens put preasure on players responsible for greens. If you play dps its more safe to do greens since you dont know your healers/tank skill but you know your own. On the other hand if you play tank and can distort every/most of the greens, time your well of eternity to heal after explosion and not get ported then overheal is better since you dont need to count on 4 green players.

    In overheal you need to depend on your players more, not less. You have to trust your tank, your healers, but you also have to trust your dps players - to not get teleported for example. Or to not stay behind the stack once the tank starts leading VG around.

    Yes, overhealing is easier and more efficient in more experienced and better organized groups. If you have any reason to doubt quality of your team however, greens are safer.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    It is very easy and you don't need any single aegis because it won't help you against the damage impact from the green explosion. All you need is one or two competent healers that know when to burst heal, a competent tank (you need him with the other tactic as well) and players not getting ported by blues which shouldn't happen if they are in max melee range, watch out and have the ingame sound running if it's not manageable for them otherwise (you can hear the blue ports "building up").
    The nerf to druid didn't change anything for this tactic unless your druids weren't already really skilled before.

    You say it is very easy but then you say that you need competent this and that with tank, druid and players staying on max melee range and whatever else. So easy i guess.
    Its so easy to save the world from North Korea too. Even Trump did it. :)

    What you are aiming for are braindead encounters. Raids are the endgame in GW2 PvE and the most challenging content in this game. So yeah, there is no contradiction in my post since we are talking about people that should be experienced and not beginners. If you have killed VG more than 10-20 times you should know what's going on otherwise you find yourself in a sad state in terms of skill!
    In addition, a competent healer means that this player isn't just using staff 1 for pew pew and maybe using CA4 because he heard that it can heal. Mentioning the tank is negligible because it doesn't matter what tactic you are using he has to do his job otherwise both tactics fail. Last but not least the max melee thing is a help. I know most people don't know how to handle that or what it even means but then I expect them to pay more attention to walk out of the blue circles or dodging.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    Heh.

    Our group which is a mix of starting raiders (3-6 of us) and random pugs with no LI or KP requirements usually do greens in first 2 phases and ignore them entirely on the last phase.

    Doable.

  • @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    It is very easy and you don't need any single aegis because it won't help you against the damage impact from the green explosion. All you need is one or two competent healers that know when to burst heal, a competent tank (you need him with the other tactic as well) and players not getting ported by blues which shouldn't happen if they are in max melee range, watch out and have the ingame sound running if it's not manageable for them otherwise (you can hear the blue ports "building up").
    The nerf to druid didn't change anything for this tactic unless your druids weren't already really skilled before.

    You say it is very easy but then you say that you need competent this and that with tank, druid and players staying on max melee range and whatever else. So easy i guess.
    Its so easy to save the world from North Korea too. Even Trump did it. :)

    What you are aiming for are braindead encounters. Raids are the endgame in GW2 PvE and the most challenging content in this game. So yeah, there is no contradiction in my post since we are talking about people that should be experienced and not beginners. If you have killed VG more than 10-20 times you should know what's going on otherwise you find yourself in a sad state in terms of skill!
    In addition, a competent healer means that this player isn't just using staff 1 for pew pew and maybe using CA4 because he heard that it can heal. Mentioning the tank is negligible because it doesn't matter what tactic you are using he has to do his job otherwise both tactics fail. Last but not least the max melee thing is a help. I know most people don't know how to handle that or what it even means but then I expect them to pay more attention to walk out of the blue circles or dodging.

    I know what you are saying but it's not that easy as group when you play with 9 other strangers.
    I know this because I pug all my raids. Never been in statics.
    Sometime, I join lfg and find myself surrounded by 6 or 7 static group, and it's usually breeze.

  • @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Heh.

    Our group which is a mix of starting raiders (3-6 of us) and random pugs with no LI or KP requirements usually do greens in first 2 phases and ignore them entirely on the last phase.

    Doable.

    You ignore them on last phase coz if anyone port and die, you can leave them and still get the kill. It's whole a lot different with 9 other stranger.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    LOL it's hard to outheal greens?
    I don't know about it now after druid nerfs (haven't raided in a few weeks).
    But i've had an instance where the second druid died (didn't spot a blue just before green triggered), and my brother outhealed greens alone with a magi/minstrels druid for a bunch of the penultimate and all the final phase.
    It helps that i was doing the tanking with minstrel's gear and some healy traits (all's well when ends well), restorative mantras (using healing mantra) all that backed by healing Prism, puts out some decent off-heals.

    Honestly, the only real difficulty of VG is from Arena Net artificially making it harder by making blues harder to read than they should be.
    Blues visuals get drowned out by just about any AoE, but especially chrono wells. And their sound is also drowned out by a lot of skills (again chrono wells being amongst them).
    If all that clutter stopped overriding blues' tells, VG would be considerably easier.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The nerfs are irrelevant because the "pug meta" was and is 2 heal druids which is much more than needed in a "decent" group. If those groups fail it's because you have very bad players in it - either druids that are incompetent or too many slackers getting ported by blues. I've been in a 250 LI pug yesterday and it wasn't understandable for me that the first try failed but I guess this group was full with 100 LIs from Escort and the other ones from several Wing 4 bosses and maybe one boss here and there. And of course maybe some LI fakers.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    Heh.

    Our group which is a mix of starting raiders (3-6 of us) and random pugs with no LI or KP requirements usually do greens in first 2 phases and ignore them entirely on the last phase.

    Doable.

    You ignore them on last phase coz if anyone port and die, you can leave them and still get the kill. It's whole a lot different with 9 other stranger.

    None of us die though :)

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2018

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    or did not attempt this properly after the changes to Druid healing

    https://gw2raidar.com/encounter/EyesBenchPiesSlamsVisions
    it is easy, we did it 2nd try and the 1st try failed because of something not connected to outhealing greens

    Anet could nerf druid heal another 30% and it would still be doable

    First person to reach 35,000 and 36,000 AP.
    killproof.me/proof/kEyr

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can be done only by static group?
    That's a lot of nonsense.

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Zaraki.5784 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

    With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

    +1

    Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

    I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Zaraki.5784 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

    With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

    +1

    Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

    I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

    Outheal is not just a decent tank and decent healers. Outheal means stacking, and stacking means that everyone has to be on point. They can't get teleported, or they'll probably die far away from the stack. They have to stack properly behind the vale guardian, but with so much visual clutter it isn't as easy to see something that basic. Yesterday, I did outheal VG. I was the tank. First 2 phases at the center, then rotating. I didn't do it perfectly (I got teleported once), but the main problem was that we had 2-4 players getting teleported at almost all blues. So how a tank and a druid could have saved the raid? Nah they couldn't do that, since everyone else was not doing things properly. We killed VG when less people got tped.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • But i've had an instance where the second druid died (didn't spot a blue just before green triggered), and my brother outhealed greens alone with a magi/minstrels druid for a bunch of the penultimate and all the final phase.

    I have also killed Dhuum with 1 druid and scourge kiter. In fact, that was one my smoothest run ever. only 1 Healer in entire group. But, i am not sit here and say dhuum is easy with only 1 druid. Because while it can be easy with all decent player, you only need 1 to completely mess it up.

  • @Talindra.4958 said:
    Can be done only by static group?
    That's a lot of nonsense.

    That's not what OP means. He was simply saying that its usually messy with pug trying to outheal green. People really have no idea how pug works. I should know. Because all 1000+li that i earned, i have only done with pug (except, i joined static 1 time and left after a week). It is very unpredictable and that is the best part :).
    So, outhealing green can be smooth and effective but most of the time, it's cluster mess.

  • I havent done greens for months now on VG and i havent had a static since like the beginning of the year. Greens are outdated, you just need to know how to stack properly.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    Can be done only by static group?
    That's a lot of nonsense.

    Nah, it can be done with pugs as well (and in fact pugs do seem to prefer that strategy, as it is faster when performed correctly). It's just depending on the players you get it can be far less reliable than doing greens. And in pugs it's simply much harder to control the quality of players.

    TL/DR; it should be done with experienced groups only, because the chances of messing it up with a poor quality group are bigger than with greens strategy.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

<1
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