How should chrono be nerfed?

support chronomancer has been an unshakeable pillar of the pve meta trio. no raid comp even dares start a single encounter without a chrono or two, since they are the tank in the pseudo-trinity created in the HoT aftermath. while this in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, the sheer tenacity and resilience of the chrono's role as a tank has been astonishing and very long-lived, to say the least, not even remotely leaving room for another support-orientated spec to take its place. for example the Snowcrows site itself quotes

Support Chronomancer is a ridiculously strong and broken build. You provide Quickness and Alacrity "permanently" to your subgroup throughout fights and also supplying Aegis on demand to block attacks. You provide an insane amount of CC on demand and can supply roughly 9 - 10 boons to your subgroup when playing Chaos.and etc, the rest can be found on their chronomancer support build page.however, we've seen over a few recent patches that devs might be starting to target this (recent nerfs to druid come to mind), so i'm inclined to believe adjustments to chronomancer and warrior banners are no longer out of the question. so, whether the fateful patch be the upcoming one in august 2018 or november or however long it takes, what would be the best way to do this without the dreaded OVERnerf? or a massive blow to the core mesmer profession itself? (press F for elementalist) for one, chrono should keep its identity with alacrity, it makes zero sense for the spec to be nerfed in a way that makes alacrity generation unviable, since this is essentially the chronomancer identity. it should probably keep its strong CC, another invaluable asset, although perhaps the extent of it should be tuned somewhat? (someone correct me with specifics, but i've heard somewhere around 2k breakbar damage, depending on whether grav well or moa was used, so on). lastly, and this is tricky because it involves tampering with the foundation, the core profession, should and by how much should the chaos traitline and the inspiration signet be modified so that a SINGLE character is not able to have that extremely powerful 9-10 boon uptime so easily? the closest behavior analogous to this might be wvw support firebrand and MAYBE some nice Fire for Effect builds. not even herald, the literal "Boon Spec", can compete with that amount of accessibility. how can all this be done without body-slamming chronomancer to garbage tier so that the pve balance can be opened to other tank-supports?

I don't think Chrono is the issue. They have tried to bring other classes up to competitive level but keep failing in that regard. So other classes should have been better buffed to compete with chrono. And mostly, the biggest issue is with boons. I think the system of boons we have now is outdated and only limits future content design. They need to revise the way boons work altogether.

In some other games, I won't name any, but support generally have niches. Like some support are just amazing at buffing, others at healing tanks, others at group healing, others with direct healing, heals over time, etc. that seems cooler to me than having niches based on boons. Once that is done, maybe we can have tanks based on niches. Maybe some bosses will be better with an evasive tank, or a tank that uses lots aegis, or able to apply a lot of barrier during big attacks. Maybe we'll see something like this in the next xpac.

I think the biggest issue is that chrono is giving nearly all the boons in the game and certainly can maintain them at really high amounts without really thinking anymore.

If chrono literally only gave quickness, alacrity and some aegis it would be much more balanced compared to other comps.

However in the efforts to open up other comps we should be wary of either making 1 combination mandatory as well as it's effects on other builds and classes. For example chrono and druid (for might) currently enables a plethora of healing options for a safe raid while running a firebrand/rev comp completely shuts them out because you will have at least 2 healers, maybe even 4.

That's only looking at support, the way chrono currently is also allows you to run 2 chrono, 1 druid (might), 1 warrior (buffs), a dedicated healer, 5 DPS. The 5 DPS means you can bring a much wider variety of DPS options to the raid where you might have 2 that truly excel at single target (thief, mesmer great examples) and then 3 others that have decent cleave (necro, ele, guard etc) to take care of annoying adds. Yes there will always be a "best pick" but as long as other options are competitive it allows you to run whatever you want for weekly clears, especially if another comp is much safer and so allows for a far more reliable run.

Remember the quickest clear is the one where you only do each boss once. Take those extra safety nets for weekly clears, you're not setting a world record.

We can't have anything nice. Been here since beta, but this stuff is still old.

The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

Even if we ignore the amount of different boons Chaos chrono provides, chrono in general provides too much role compression. For just 1 raid spot, it tanks, heals, and provides CC, boon removal, reflect, quickness and alacrity. There's no other class with both those boons in their kit, and that's the core of the problem. FB and Rene were created to work together, and that's why the alt comp couldn't compete, since chrono and druid don't have the same problem; they complement each other, but can still function independently, especially chrono.

Then, there's the other issue that you need 4 spots for FB/Rene, while chrono and druid take 3, and some squads don't even take druid.

So I don't think the problem is chrono. It's the pressure for role compression created by the mirror comp design, as well as the badly designed FB and Renegade.

Nerfing chrono won't solve the problem, unless they redesigned the spec to force it to choose between providing quickness or alacrity. That would create the roles of quickness stacker and alacrity stacker, and FB and Rene could compete for each.

Personally, I would like to see a overhaul of the 5-target system, and banners and spirits. Make the latter codified buffs that could be shared with other classes and future elite specs, and design support specs to work for 10 people. That would free space for different playstyles, specifically healers who don't get a spot unless they provide something more than healing, and reduce the need for the extreme role compression chrono provides, allowing FB and Rene to better compete with the DPS edge they provide.

Can I ask why we want to nerf the supports of the current meta?Don't we remember the times where it was actually a joke if you had anything but berserker gear, where you were kicked out of pugs for running anything else?With the latest patch we got so many new builds that may actually be viable.No matter what class you pick and genuinely enjoy, you're going to have multiple choices of viable builds to use in every game mode.

@Cuddly.5340 said:Can I ask why we want to nerf the supports of the current meta?Don't we remember the times where it was actually a joke if you had anything but berserker gear, where you were kicked out of pugs for running anything else?With the latest patch we got so many new builds that may actually be viable.No matter what class you pick and genuinely enjoy, you're going to have multiple choices of viable builds to use in every game mode.

Nobody here said that they want the old Berserker meta. They are saying that they want an alternative for chrono. It's been 3 years already.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Cuddly.5340 said:Can I ask why we want to nerf the supports of the current meta?Don't we remember the times where it was actually a joke if you had anything but berserker gear, where you were kicked out of pugs for running anything else?With the latest patch we got so many new builds that may actually be viable.No matter what class you pick and genuinely enjoy, you're going to have multiple choices of viable builds to use in every game mode.

The thing is I'm not sure if that would be healthier for the game. You would likely need 2 classes to do what a single chrono does unless they gave quickness, alacrity, fury and vigor generation to another class in a singular build. Even then it would fall short in utility but that can be made up through diversity of of other options.

If you need 2 classes to do what chrono does and we still have to mirror comp your other 6 spots have to include any other support and DPS options you want, including warrior and healer if the 2 classes replacing chrono don't heal. If the 2 classes replacing chrono heal then we have reduced healing options to those two classes only now which is worse for diversity.

Additionally the less DPS slots you have the less options you have for what can be played. Some classes excel at single target with almost no cleave while others have exceptional cleave but are vulnerable to moving, others are good all round but aren't top. This matters because unless you're one of the top players when you have only 4 options you'll need to fill 3 of these spots with classes optimal for the encounter to ensure a better performance and lower your chances of failing.

Like it or not chrono enables us to have 6 slots in a raid group where you can play whatever you want (chrono x2, ranger and warrior) where you can play any mix of 6 dps classes as they will likely cover all aspects of a fight or drop a DPS for a dedicated healer and still have more versatility on DPS options.

Edit: We also have an alternative for chrono, it's rev/FB combo.

@apharma.3741 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@Cuddly.5340 said:Can I ask why we want to nerf the supports of the current meta?Don't we remember the times where it was actually a joke if you had anything but berserker gear, where you were kicked out of pugs for running anything else?With the latest patch we got so many new builds that may actually be viable.No matter what class you pick and genuinely enjoy, you're going to have multiple choices of viable builds to use in every game mode.

Yes you're right. I thought about that for a while, and I think giving all the supports 10 man cap instead of 5 (it would be split, as i dont know how much it would affect WvW) would do some good work and might get rid of mirror comps we currently have. But, getting rid of 2nd chrono or 2nd revfb would free 1 or 2 slots for additional DPS, which would result in incredibly easier raids. So Anet would have to nerf all the DPS classes to 25-29K benchmark range.

Edit: We also have an alternative for chrono, it's rev/FB combo.That combo is just not worth.

Well, first of all get rid of Aegis on Mesmer. Alltogether, other than boon conversion. They get access to every other boon in the books, why should they have Aegis as well?For the record, I don't necessarily want Guardian to have a monopoly on Aegis either. I just think it makes zero sense on Mesmer. Give it to Ele or Necro or Warrior. Or Engi if that makes sense. For ele it could make the most sense, especially when attuning to Earth.

@Yannir.4132 said:Well, first of all get rid of Aegis on Mesmer. Alltogether, other than boon conversion. They get access to every other boon in the books, why should they have Aegis as well?For the record, I don't necessarily want Guardian to have a monopoly on Aegis either. I just think it makes zero sense on Mesmer. Give it to Ele or Necro or Warrior. Or Engi if that makes sense. For ele it could make the most sense, especially when attuning to Earth.

I don't see how it makes sense on those classes either. Aegis was used as the excuse as to why guardian can't get barrier, so giving aegis to necro, engi or ele who already have barrier makes no sense.

As for warrior, guardian's defensive utility is why their health is 11k, so how does it make sense for warrior to have the same party utility on a much sturdier class with more health and selfish utility, on top of unique offensive support?

Ranger is a similar case, with a focus on offensive support. The only class on which barrier would make sense other than mesmer is maybe a future support thief spec that focuses on damage prevention rather than healing. And revenant, because the class is designed to have no identity or limitations, but revenant is already stepping too much on guardian's toes, we don't need to make it worse.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:Well, first of all get rid of Aegis on Mesmer. Alltogether, other than boon conversion. They get access to every other boon in the books, why should they have Aegis as well?For the record, I don't necessarily want Guardian to have a monopoly on Aegis either. I just think it makes zero sense on Mesmer. Give it to Ele or Necro or Warrior. Or Engi if that makes sense. For ele it could make the most sense, especially when attuning to Earth.

You are indeed correct. Now I'm thinking more in the lines of a future Elite Spec, which eliminates Barrier from both engi and necro. Most of ele too, although ele would still have Earth Shield Barrier. If we are thinking future Especs, mesmer is back on the table again as well if Aegis is removed from core mesmer.

Necromancers getting Aegis is a wet dream in the necro sub-forum. :lol:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:The problem is deeper than just chrono. Making a 10-man game mode when support skills are limited to 5 players creates the problem of mirror comp. It reached a point where 6 classes were supporting 4 dps.

that does raise the questino, why do five-man only buffs exist if making them 10-person would seem to illuminate the mirror chrono in one change? do 10-mans create an imbalance for fractals or zergs? maybe they were unintentionally an artifact of the pre-Hot pve where dungeons and fractals were five only?

In my opinion, key problem areas include signet of inspiration, the combination of the chaos specialization with chronomancer and insane cc in tides of time and moa/gravity well. The design challenge here is how do you nerf this build without completely gutting the specializations when not used in conjunction and also leave mirage unaffected.

Signet of Inspiration - in my opinion the worst offender in the build as this skill along with lesser keeps the train rolling once you get a single application of any boon. My suggested nerf here is to put the boons on a hierarchy and only share the top X number (lets say 4) boons in the hierarchy. You can then balance alacrity and quickness on this tree by shifting their positions. For example, a conservative nerf would be to have quickness alacrity protection and vigor as the top 4 shared boons everytime you hit soi. This gives the druid more pressure to upkeep might and fury. A harsher nerf could be to put undesired spammable boons at the top ie. Might, fury, retaliation, protection then quickness and alacrity. This way team comps have to be designed around choosing do we want party wide protection or do we want dps buffs. If you apply prot to the chrono, you suddenly dont get quickness cuz it gets bumped off the list. This might be disastrous in pugs though and would make classes like dragonhunter even less desired with the constant application of retal.

ChaosThis is where we need to a bit more delicate since the specialization still needs to be usuable outside of chrono. Bountiful disillusionment needs to not share boons with allies on shatter or not give stability to the chrono. Both would probably be too much. The idea behind this is, again to slow the boon engine train. Another idea would be in order to activate the trait, you must shatter at least 1 clone.

CC - my suggestion here would be to add in functionality to for tides of time to multihit in another trait to compete with alls well that ends well or seize the moment. Make baseline tides hit once per pass.

So after all of these nerfs, why even play chrono? Because chrono is still extremely team slot efficient especially in the tank slot. Since my suggestions dont touch boon duration for q/a these nerfs might not even be enough to dissuade using 2 chronos since chronos existed when the primary build was domination.

I think Hot boy hit it on the head, every class needs to have a niche, it just can't be a "requirement" that you have every class. making it so one chrono can supply 10 people with alacrity/quickness and then creating more/different boons to create other niches for the less used classes would do wonders for the class variety.

I have an opinion that will not be popular. I think access to quickness should be removed from chrono. It still offers much without it.

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:

@"Cuddly.5340" said:Can I ask why we want to nerf the supports of the current meta?Don't we remember the times where it was actually a joke if you had anything but berserker gear, where you were kicked out of pugs for running anything else?With the latest patch we got so many new builds that may actually be viable.No matter what class you pick and genuinely enjoy, you're going to have multiple choices of viable builds to use in every game mode.

Edit: We also have an alternative for chrono, it's rev/FB combo.That combo is just not worth.

If we're talking WvW, theres always been an inherent problem of scaling. The 5 Target cap started because of WvW, as each target allowed directly multiplies the total output of the skill. To address that issue, they'd have to spread a given total across all the targets.... cap the output, and divide its individual impact. But doing that creates another problem- lower reliability and asymmetric scaling of groups. Since most support skills are also ranged limited, this complicates the issue further. Most other games don't have that issue, because those tend to base shared effects through the party system and/or targeted skills.

But if you look at how zerg comps work, they have a more overall flexibility, since ideal conditions are effectively impossible (and not worth trying to strategize around). The Target cap enables much of this. But ironically, WvW scaling operates on what Raids "think" they have..... and metrics based on distributed total. Raid encounters are fundamentally Asymmetric with one side having their defense focal and offense distributed (boss), compared to the players having distributed support but focal damage. More targets multiplies the damage output of each skill, as does each target affected by a support/healing skill. But with many vs many situations, you have a performance gradient based on how many units are active in the group comp. Shut one or more of those elements down, and the group's performance reduces in turn.

So if you think about it..... zergs can get away with flexible comps, because they scale as a group in everything. They also aren't fighting an enemy that is all or nothing. Enemy teams can be whittle downed, split up, shut down, or otherwise diminished through attrition. The one remaining problem is population imbalance, as the larger team will always have an advantage in total output.

The type of comp created by the current raid meta is largely additive on DPS, with Supports creating DPS indirectly..... and thats all they need.... as much DPS as they can cram into a 10 man team. One target that maintains its performance, or even increases over time, until its dead.

How i would "nerf" chronl is easier said than done. I would change the traits so you cant provide perma alacrity AND quickness only one if them each as effective as it is now.Maybe tune down the boonshare of core mesmer a bit or providing more boonshare with other specs.Similsr layout like holo would be nice.3 traits affecting wells, 3 traits affectibg continuum split and 3 GMs that emohasize eithwr on control, support or dmg.

Nerf SoI and Chaos. Chrono shouldn't be able to cover every boon in the game. At most they should be able to permanently apply two time based boons (Quickness and Alacrity).

I believe that the insane boon sharing is a problematic issue in the game in general. Remove all boon sharing, let boons be boosters for oneself. This change should loosen up the rigid team compositions and allow more classes to enjoy endgame content. At the moment, the endgame content with raids and fractals is more than terrible.

@Refia Montes.3205 said:time based boons (Quickness and Alacrity).

this is closest to what i was thinking, maybe not so harsh a nerf that those are the ONLY two boons, strictly speaking, but yes a far cry from the near-instant 9-10 boons now

Flipside oppinion: Rather than nerfing Chronomancer, buff Firebrand and Renegade slightly.

Firebrand

• Weighty Terms - Moved to Grandmaster. Rather than Mantra causing Immobilize on the final Charge, this trait now increases the Radius to 360 and causes Mantra to hit 10 Allies instead of 5. Cooldown reduction of Charges remain.
• Stoic Demeanor - Moved to Master.
• "Feel My Wrath!" - Now affects 10 Allies, up from 5.

Renegade

• Heroic Command and Orders from Above now affect 10 allies, up from 5.
• Serene Rejuvenation now grants Alacrity to 10 Allies within range, but still only Heals 5.

Now Players can choose to run 1 Firebrand + 1 Renegade to handle Aegis, Quickness, Alacrity and Might as well as Healing; or 2 Chronomancers + 1 Druid as is the current meta. The former will have more DPS as you can slot in 1 additional DPS in the line-up, however the Latter will have greater Versatility and CC. Some other changes might be necessary as well, but comparatively minor. In a Firebrand/Renegade setup, other professions would probably need to help with Boons such as Fury, resulting in a slightly more difficult set-up that pays off with higher overall team DPS.

Two main ideas: rework sigil of concentrationRework signet of inspiration in PvE+WvW to only share quickness up to 5s , apply alacrity at a max duration of say 3 seconds

• aegis shouldn't be shared as there's already application of aegis when you give yourself distortion (Inspiring distortion)
• stability isn't carried in PvE in most cases , having mesmers spread stability without slotting Power break is problematic
• fury should be left for revenant / heralds
• resistance / condi clear should be left for other classes
• retal isn't a huge issue
• vigor maybe could be kept with 2-3s
• might boon should be left for other classes
• protection shouldn't be shared
• swiftness isn't a large problem

See Toss Elixir U , "Feel My Wrath!" (elite skill).

Auxiliary ideas

• Cut Restorative mantras scaling with heal power
• Increase cooldown on Healing Prism to say 15 or 20 instead of 10
• rework rune of durability for WvW , reduce boon duration , increase cooldown of boons , or take regen out
• cut Bountiful Disillusionment boon duration for regen , increase the duration per illusion
• remove protection from Deja Vu (shield chained skill)

Any rework should only lower effectiveness , it shouldn't nuke it to the ground. Alacrity + quickness should be kept.

I used to use well of precog but after nerfs it's horrible.

Not at all, rather, we need a second and ideally a third "full boon support"-class. Make raids not be as dependent on a specific setup.

Take away quickness or alacrity from the mesmer repertoire. Should open the doors for some other classes.