Would you want Staff to work like Trident?

Hey everyone,Since the last big Revenant update I've been playing underwater a bit and I have to say - Trident feels great. This is what Revenant needs.And yeah, Trident skills 2 and 5 are pretty much the same but the overall feel of that weapon's effects depend on the legend you are currently invoking is a great concept!I know that Staff on Revenant is a Ventari themed weapon but I think that in most scenarios it's also a must-go tool for everyone.So, what do you think?

I do play PvP a lot (not since the utility bug) and I think that staff could benefit from legend swapping because it's such a versatile weapon. F.e.

PvP scenarios - 2 slowest staff skillsMallyx

• Renewing Wave: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions grant you (or you and your allies) 2 seconds of Resistance //// or: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions Torment/Chill nearby enemies.
• Punishing Sweep: Rip 1 boon upon hitting enemy / or steal one boon upon hitting enemy
• Debilitating Strike: In addition to Daze - Poison nearby enemies.

Jalis

• Renewing Wave: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions grant your allies 1 stack of Stability / or Barrier / or Retaliation

• Punishing Sweep: Weakness applied by this skill has its duration increased and spreads to nearby enemies

• Debilitating Strike: On successfully Dazing your enemy grant yourself Retaliation

Etc. Etc. These are the thoughts that come to my mind when I say: Make the Staff work like Trident. And this is just an example.I don't think that every Staff Skill effect should change on legend, but I look for opportunities and these 2 give them.

all the weapons to be precise

Why are people so obsessed with changing rev staff? It’s a perfectly fine weapon that doesn’t need changing at all.

Honestly what’s severely lacking is another core weapon to fill a gap.

@phokus.8934 said:Why are people so obsessed with changing rev staff? It’s a perfectly fine weapon that doesn’t need changing at all.

Honestly what’s severely lacking is another core weapon to fill a gap.

I don't think you got the point. I'm not talking about changing the staff. I'm talking about making it work like the trident does - depending on currently invoked legend you get various effects on already existing skills. Or the 1-2 Skill. I like the skills and I didn't say anything about touching them.And yeah, I too think that Revs could use one more core weapon - Axe/Focus/Dagger/Mace/Scepter or whatever they find interesting.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:Hey everyone,Since the last big Revenant update I've been playing underwater a bit and I have to say - Trident feels great. This is what Revenant needs.And yeah, Trident skills 2 and 5 are pretty much the same but the overall feel of that weapon's effects depend on the legend you are currently invoking is a great concept!I know that Staff on Revenant is a Ventari themed weapon but I think that in most scenarios it's also a must-go tool for everyone.So, what do you think?

The trident? That weapon with 0 mobility skills which adds to the tradition of Rev weapons with no defensive capabilities? Which also keeps fading distinctive Rev features (remember when the class had weapon skills which teleported you inside and out of the mist? Ha! No longer!)?

No, I have 0 interest in seing other weapons to take the same way... That could work in PvE (which I don't play) but have 0 uses in PvP/WvW (not like I would touch the Revenant for any content, anyway, but that's a different story).

@Buran.3796 said:

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:Hey everyone,Since the last big Revenant update I've been playing underwater a bit and I have to say - Trident feels great. This is what Revenant needs.And yeah, Trident skills 2 and 5 are pretty much the same but the overall feel of that weapon's effects depend on the legend you are currently invoking is a great concept!I know that Staff on Revenant is a Ventari themed weapon but I think that in most scenarios it's also a must-go tool for everyone.So, what do you think?

You got my point wrong. What I mean by "the change" is the effects based on legend you are currently invoking. I didn't say anything about changing skills. Just that it's a Ventari's weapon like other specs'. Mace for Mallyx, Swords for Shiro, Hammer for Jalis etc.

I want all weapons to work like Trident.

Yes but basically all weapons.

Why staff?I really like staff as it is..

I would like to see something akin to this on a new weapon..Maybe next expansion?

@"DonArkanio.6419"

What would you suggest change about the staff? Right now it has two conditions: weakness and blindness. These you could argue already "belong" to two different legends: weakness for Jalis and blindness for Ventari.

My problem with having conditions/effects for weapons change depending on the legend is that it further pigeonholes legends into their "main" theme/role. Legends should be versatile and allow for more than one role and style of gameplay. When I take Mallyx I take it for the boon-rip and the group resistance; torment added onto staff would serve me no good because I have no use for it. I take the staff strictly for the utility that it already offers, and to know that it will still provide the same effects regardless of the current legend I'm in. I like that the weapons function independently from the legends.

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:@"DonArkanio.6419"

What would you suggest change about the staff? Right now it has two conditions: weakness and blindness. These you could argue already "belong" to two different legends: weakness for Jalis and blindness for Ventari.

Those are not conditions, but used as utillity..

@lordbachus.6091 said:

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:@"DonArkanio.6419"

What would you suggest change about the staff? Right now it has two conditions: weakness and blindness. These you could argue already "belong" to two different legends: weakness for Jalis and blindness for Ventari.

But they are conditions, they are just not damaging conditions. Also, look at trident: only Mallyx and Glint have damaging conditions, Shiro and Jalis do not. My point was that if the kit already has two separate legend's conditions (I am saying blindness for Ventari because of Salvation), how would the kit be changed to accommodate it being legend-specific only? Would both Staff 2 and Staff 3 apply the same conditions? If not, why would it be okay to pick and choose which skills have their conditions change? Would this go beyond just conditions to have different effects too?

Absolutely not. It’s a complicated balance mess that ends up favoring certain legends even more than we already do. For example out of the 4 legends we currently have for trident Glint is the strongest, even for a power build, simply because it applies burning. This is followed by Mallyx with torment. Shiro and Jalis apply vulnerability and weakness, both of which are pretty negligible overall and don’t really give them a reason to be picked when just looking at the raw damage of their trident skills

I could see them changing what the little healing orbs do, based on legend, for the staff's auto attack.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rejuvenating_Assault

Ventari- Same but with improved healingMallyx- Little mines that enemies step on and get tormentJalis- Stability orbsShiro- Vulnerability minesGlint- Protection orbsKalla- Bleed mines

I think the way trident's applied condition changes based on legend is a good idea as well, but I think staff definitely is fine as is. If they were to do this with a core weapon, I think hammer would be the way to go? Mace, axe, sword, and staff are all so heavily tied to their own builds that hammer being a bit more flexible might be worth looking into.

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:

You got my point wrong. What I mean by "the change" is the effects based on legend you are currently invoking. I didn't say anything about changing skills. Just that it's a Ventari's weapon like other specs'. Mace for Mallyx, Swords for Shiro, Hammer for Jalis etc.

I understand you, but those changes never come "for free". A clear example: they revamped Glint/Herald to mirror what they did with the trident. But trident had a cost: underwater Rev last January was stronger with a single weapon than is now with two, and despite having two new underwater legends the submarine fighting capabilities are now even worse after the lastest two balance patches. An doesn't end here, in water: bugs aside, power Herald on ground is currently worse in PvP than before the patch: boon duration buffs are now so weak that using runes have more impact in your boon duration than being a Herald, and Facet of Nature/True Nature is so trashy that I no longer use F2 (I no longer use the class, but mostly due the bugs made it umplayeble). So, why I would to want some change in the staff to give generic crap to random legends which in exchange will be traded for nerfs? The staff is already very bad at doing damage and as a healing tool, and the only reason is used in PvP is because gives the defensive and cc tools that the shield lacks, that the off hand sword lacks (lost)... And buffing other legends will provide nothing to PvP players because anything outside Shiro/Glint is useless. So you're asking for a nerf to pvp tools to buff the PvE usage of the staff with Ventari, Jalis and Kalla (for a class which anyway isn't too hot in PvE... any Mesmer can fill the place of a Rev... or two.

@phokus.8934 said:Why are people so obsessed with changing rev staff? It’s a perfectly fine weapon that doesn’t need changing at all.

Honestly what’s severely lacking is another core weapon to fill a gap.

Yeah, I don't get why Staff is the weapon that needs to be changed. It works. We should leave well enough alone.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@phokus.8934 said:Why are people so obsessed with changing rev staff? It’s a perfectly fine weapon that doesn’t need changing at all.

Honestly what’s severely lacking is another core weapon to fill a gap.

Yes, yes you are. Would the weapon be the same after your proposal? If the answer to that question is no, then you've made a change. Making the Staff work like the Trident is 100% a change. How much of a change is a matter up for debate but it is a change nonetheless.

@Buran.3796 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

You got my point wrong. What I mean by "the change" is the effects based on legend you are currently invoking. I didn't say anything about changing skills. Just that it's a Ventari's weapon like other specs'. Mace for Mallyx, Swords for Shiro, Hammer for Jalis etc.

I have made this point several times and each time I make it folks are convinced that there would be no nerfs to the Staff and that adding something to it would be free. I'm glad someone else is also making this argument.

Weapon buffs do come for free for some weapons, even Meta ones. Look at Berserkers Longbow changes last go around. Straight up buffs, no nerfs. Look at Guardian's staff... meta in wvw for support and still buffed with no nerfs.

The questions is does staff need this? I dont think it necessarily does. I posted a thread about "changing staff?" several weeks ago so that there could be a second weapon that could support condi. In reality, I think hammer could be a better option for being a hybrid weapon, but staff could work. The problem is that people are looking for more flexibility in weapon sets.

The reality is, staff has next to zero offense on it, so adding something to it offense wise is extremely unlikely to result in nerfing other skills on it. Extremely unlikely. The reality is that they would not buff it so a skill on it would be a necessary part of a dps rotation. That just aint going to happen; staff already has an identity and they are not going to massively overhaul the thing.

@"Justine.6351" said:I could see them changing what the little healing orbs do, based on legend, for the staff's auto attack.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rejuvenating_Assault

Ventari- Same but with improved healingMallyx- Little mines that enemies step on and get tormentJalis- Stability orbsShiro- Vulnerability minesGlint- Protection orbsKalla- Bleed mines

I like this idea!

@Buran.3796 said:

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:

You got my point wrong. What I mean by "the change" is the effects based on legend you are currently invoking. I didn't say anything about changing skills. Just that it's a Ventari's weapon like other specs'. Mace for Mallyx, Swords for Shiro, Hammer for Jalis etc.

Well, these changes can actually come for free. Just look at the warrior's weapons. True, they wanted underused weapons to feel good again.I don't think we are getting any new core weapon for Revenant. I'd love it, but we know it's not happening.Staff is a utility weapon which already provides some cool effects but this could be further improved by adding some buffs/conditions based on the currently invoked legends. If you don't want staff to be touched at all, I won't change your mind. I personally like the fact that using certain legend ties you to the certain gameplay.I do play PvP a lot (not since the utility bug) and I think that staff could benefit from legend swapping because it's such a versatile weapon. F.e.

• PvP scenarios - 2 slowest staff skills

Mallyx

• Renewing Wave: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions grant you (or you and your allies) 2 seconds of Resistance //// or: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions Torment/Chill nearby enemies.
• Punishing Sweep: Rip 1 boon upon hitting enemy / or steal one boon upon hitting enemy
• Debilitating Strike: In addition to Daze - Poison nearby enemies.Jalis
• Renewing Wave: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions grant your allies 1 stack of Stability / or Barrier / or Retaliation
• Punishing Sweep: Weakness applied by this skill has its duration increased and spreads to nearby enemies
• Debilitating Strike: On successfully Dazing your enemy grant yourself Retaliation

Etc. Etc. These are the thoughts that come to my mind when I say: Make the Staff work like Trident. And this is just an example.I don't think that every Staff Skill effect should change on legend, but I look for opportunities and these 2 give them.

@"Justine.6351" said:I could see them changing what the little healing orbs do, based on legend, for the staff's auto attack.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rejuvenating_Assault

Ventari- Same but with improved healingMallyx- Little mines that enemies step on and get tormentJalis- Stability orbsShiro- Vulnerability minesGlint- Protection orbsKalla- Bleed mines

That is a great idea! In my last comment I also gave some suggestions to what Staff could do depending on legend.I think this is something that can be implemented without causing imbalance - in fact, Rev could use a bit of love.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:Absolutely not. It’s a complicated balance mess that ends up favoring certain legends even more than we already do. For example out of the 4 legends we currently have for trident Glint is the strongest, even for a power build, simply because it applies burning. This is followed by Mallyx with torment. Shiro and Jalis apply vulnerability and weakness, both of which are pretty negligible overall and don’t really give them a reason to be picked when just looking at the raw damage of their trident skills

I agree that underwater Glint and Mallyx might be the strongest. But I don't think that this would be the problem with staff. I don't want to give it flat Torment, Burning, Bleed etc. on every skill of staff. Take a look at the post I made some time ago mentioning the below effects that Staff could grant.

Mallyx

• Renewing Wave: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions grant you (or you and your allies) 2 seconds of Resistance //// or: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions Torment/Chill nearby enemies.
• Punishing Sweep: Rip 1 boon upon hitting enemy / or steal one boon upon hitting enemy
• Debilitating Strike: In addition to Daze - Poison nearby enemies.Jalis
• Renewing Wave: After successfully cleansing 2 conditions grant your allies 1 stack of Stability / or Barrier / or Retaliation
• Punishing Sweep: Weakness applied by this skill has its duration increased and spreads to nearby enemies
• Debilitating Strike: On successfully Dazing your enemy grant yourself Retaliation

Etc. Etc. These are the thoughts that come to my mind when I say: Make the Staff work like Trident. And this is just an example.I don't think that every Staff Skill effect should change on legend, but I look for opportunities and these 2 give them.

@DonArkanio.6419, i would not mind if Anet made it that way but if they bring the trident for land.

@"Opopanax.1803" said:Weapon buffs do come for free for some weapons, even Meta ones. Look at Berserkers Longbow changes last go around. Straight up buffs, no nerfs. Look at Guardian's staff... meta in wvw for support and still buffed with no nerfs.

The questions is does staff need this? I dont think it necessarily does. I posted a thread about "changing staff?" several weeks ago so that there could be a second weapon that could support condi. In reality, I think hammer could be a better option for being a hybrid weapon, but staff could work. The problem is that people are looking for more flexibility in weapon sets.

The reality is, staff has next to zero offense on it, so adding something to it offense wise is extremely unlikely to result in nerfing other skills on it. Extremely unlikely. The reality is that they would not buff it so a skill on it would be a necessary part of a dps rotation. That just aint going to happen; staff already has an identity and they are not going to massively overhaul the thing.

Weapon buffs that happen sans nerf occur when the weapon is underpowered or not performing in a fashion or at a level they want it too. The goal is to maintain balance and you don't maintain balance by buffing something that doesn't need buffing. If something gets a buff but it didn't need it then it will get a nerf to maintain game balance. If all they did was add buffs there would be less complaining on the forums. Staff is already a well-balanced weapon. The staff doesn't need any offensiveness. Revenant has plenty of offensive weapons. The staff is a utility/support weapon and because of this, it doesn't need to be offensive.

So far, everyone who has wanted to change staff has failed to demonstrate that staff is either A. underpowered or B. not performing in a fashion or at a level they want it too. Instead everyone who has suggested changes to staff have attempted to make it into some kind of ultra weapon. They want staff to be more offensive while at the same time tacking on conditions and now changing abilities based on the legend. Somehow folks believe this can be achieved and staff would otherwise remain unchanged. Given previous mechanical changes to already balanced and working weapons, it is clear what would happen to staff if people got what they wanted, and it would not be for the better.

The overwhelming majority of the problems that people try to load onto staff could be fixed if people pushed for fixes to Revenant and it's other weapons. It makes no sense why the staff, of all weapons, is the one that people keep trying to change when there are other weapons that could do EXACTLY what people want and with less overall change. Why do players want to rely on a single weapon? Personally, I want more weapon options, not having to rely on a single weapon to make up for the shortcomings of other aspects.

@"DonArkanio.6419" said:Well, these changes can actually come for free. Just look at the warrior's weapons. True, they wanted underused weapons to feel good again.I don't think we are getting any new core weapon for Revenant. I'd love it, but we know it's not happening.Staff is a utility weapon which already provides some cool effects but this could be further improved by adding some buffs/conditions based on the currently invoked legends. If you don't want staff to be touched at all, I won't change your mind. I personally like the fact that using certain legend ties you to the certain gameplay.I do play PvP a lot (not since the utility bug) and I think that staff could benefit from legend swapping because it's such a versatile weapon. F.e.

No, changes do not come for free. You admitted that they change underused weapons to feel good again. That's why it got buffs with no nerfs to get more people to use it. The problem here is staff is overused. Staff is a major component of a lot of builds and if you improve it further you will have to remove things to balance it out. Yes, the staff does provide cool effects but why do you want to rely on just the staff? That increases the problems Revenant already has. I will never understand why people want to make Revenant's weapon choices worse. I also do not get why folks keep pushing to hinder Revenant play by having the profession rely even more on a single weapon. Revenant doesn't need staff changes. It needs changes to other aspects in order to increase their viability in other builds. Relying on one weapon is poor game design. Asking for changes to staff so that it is more useful is asking to have Revenant players depend on poor game design. People should be demanding overall changes to other weapons and mechanics so that overall diversity for Revenant increases, not decrease.

Everyone who pushes this narrative of "changes come for free"seems to conveniently ignore all the times that weapons were nerfed. It needs restating, if all they did was add buffs for free then there would be a lot less complaining on the forums.

@Dace.8173 said:

@"Opopanax.1803" said:Weapon buffs do come for free for some weapons, even Meta ones. Look at Berserkers Longbow changes last go around. Straight up buffs, no nerfs. Look at Guardian's staff... meta in wvw for support and still buffed with no nerfs.

The questions is does staff need this? I dont think it necessarily does. I posted a thread about "changing staff?" several weeks ago so that there could be a second weapon that could support condi. In reality, I think hammer could be a better option for being a hybrid weapon, but staff could work. The problem is that people are looking for more flexibility in weapon sets.

The reality is, staff has next to zero offense on it, so adding something to it offense wise is extremely unlikely to result in nerfing other skills on it. Extremely unlikely. The reality is that they would not buff it so a skill on it would be a necessary part of a dps rotation. That just aint going to happen; staff already has an identity and they are not going to massively overhaul the thing.

This quote really demonstrates that you are so contolled by your fear of a compensatory nerf that you havent even heard what the other side has said. Which is suprising considering how much you type back in "response"!

1. No one is suggesting an ultra weapon
2. Almost any of the people that are suggesting changes would prefer an added weapon over changes, but we are also realistic enough to know that it wont happen.

You are the only one that has decided on your own "conditions" that must be met. Even given examples, actual examples of meta weapons and you refuse to acknowledge that buffs can happen without nerfs.

I now know you've mostly been talking with yourself here, but it would have been good if you could at least read what the other side is saying. At this point I really cant take you seriously with realizing that you havent even understood some basic points that the other side has. When I would read your posts, you sounded pretty logical; its too bad that you dont have listening to the other side tied to your logic, because I think you'd actually do even better if you could. If you can get your fear of compensatory nerfing under control, I think you might be able to make some good, logical points that actually address the issues instead of going after red herrings.