Achievement Point Discussion - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Achievement Point Discussion

124

Comments

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

    Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

    Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

    Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made. You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players. Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue, I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.

    You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.

    As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    So again your issue isn't with the unique rewards but exclusively with that little number associated with your account.
    Funny when I said that you called it a "misunderstanding", but now you make it rather obvious.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Right! What you are saying is that once the amount of ap available (to everyone) exceeds the amount required for all of the unique rewards on the ap track, the problem will be solved. It's my solution exactly.

    First that's not your solution.

    It really is . . .

    Second, there is no problem to solve.

    You just described it as a problem to be solved . . .

    Exceeding the amount required for all the unique rewards is something that is already happening, as new achievements are added to the game.

    See? It's 'happening', as in, hasn't happened yet. You're just hoping. If there wasn't a problem, you wouldn't need the amount available to everyone to exceed any set amount, it could just stop at any time. What you're saying is that there is a problem, but it will solve itself if anet introduces enough ap in the future and they remove unique rewards in the portion of the track not yet revealed . . .

    How do you know the game won't reach 80k achievement points while the current cap for unique rewards is only at 60k?

    You're doing it again here. You're saying "see, imagine this possible time in the future when they problem would no longer exist'. If the problem didn't exist now, you would not need to hypothesize . . .

    I mean do you have evidence that the game will die before it allows its players to get the last unique reward? If so please share.

    Do you have evidence that the missing ap is not blocking players from unique rewards right now? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

    If they never remove unique rewards, the problem will never be solved.

    I'm not sure what you are on about here. The answer is just above. Without removing the unique rewards, the amount of AP that the game provides can exceed the number required to earn the final reward. There is no need to remove the unique rewards as there is no problem.

    This is just a straight misunderstanding of word use then. The track has always included unique rewards, just as it has always included gem rewards, gold rewards, etc. If, in future portions of the track, no unique rewards exist, then unique rewards will have been removed from the track at that point. Your argument actually hinges on this eventual removal, and ofc the continued introducing of more ap thereafter. Note that this is not when I would think it best to remove the rewards, I think it should be done sooner. But it would be removal either way . . .

    So now the question to be asked is when should unique rewards be removed?

    Never is the correct answer.

    Then players will be forever locked out of some of those rewards. This actually wouldn't be a problem if not for the missing ap from lost content . . .

    We've already established that all players have access to all the unique rewards

    except they don't. You're hoping that they will someday, which requires the rewards to be removed and ap to continue to increase to some amount past that point, to compensate for the missing ap . . .

    so there is no reason to remove them. You are forgetting that the question of removing unique rewards requires the DEATH of the game before enough achievements are added for all players to acquire all the rewards. Since you simply don't know if that will be the case, there is no reason to remove the unique rewards in the first place.

    I actually agreed that this future removal and continued introduction of ap would solve the problem, like two pages ago actually :p
    I just don't think it's a good of a solution as removing the rewards earlier . . .

    Again, if you have evidence to suggest that the game is gonna die soon, please share.

    Would that be wise? Wouldn't it be one of those self-fulfilling prophecy things . . ?

    So you're saying your error was in assuming my reference to 'lost ap' had to do with the actual ap rather than the rewards they unlocked. I am still not sure how you made that error given that my solution only deals with the rewards and not the ap, but I am pleased that you gave me this opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

    I made no error. Your reference was about lost AP and since we've established that you can get all the achievement rewards it means your reference is about the LOST AP as a number and that alone. There is no misunderstanding here, only you twisting words, you clearly stated that you care about the missing AP, not about the rewards. I responded to your clear sentence. Missing AP and your "solution" are irrelevant to each other.

    This is just absurd, and that's really saying something at this point. You're actually claiming to know my mind better than I do. Consider for yourself why I would mention missing ap in any context other than how it affects unique rewards, if by your own admission missing ap has nothing to do with my solution to the problem . . .

    They can't tho . . .

    They can, we've already established that. Don't go back to square one now.

    I'm not sure we've ever left square one tbh. What you are trying to say is 'could' as in 'might be possible one day'. I'm talking about a problem that actually exists today, and would continue to exist in the future day you are referring to, unless the unique rewards are removed from the track . . .

    My entire solution deals only with the unique rewards. The lost ap explains the why of so many players being forever behind in unlocking their unique rewards. I had explained this several times prior to this, and have several times since. I was hoping here that a concise explanation might get through where a detailed explanation did not. Apparently that hope was in vain, but again I appreciate your granting me the opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

    Again, there is no misunderstanding on my part. Your solution isn't required, as we've established that all players have access to all rewards. Then you complained about the lost AP as a completely separate issue, don't try to combine them now. Your solution and your complaint about lacking AP are separate. I responded to your desire to have lost AP back alone because you presented that sentence alone.

    No, I presented it in reply to your suggestion that someone being 6k (your example) short of current rewards is irrelevant bc they would eventually reach current rewards as long as enough new ap is introduced. My point was that after another 6k ap was introduced, they would still be 6k short of what would then be current rewards, i.e. they would never recover the ap to catch up to current rewards. I actually specifically pointed out earlier in a reply to another poster why I thought trying to introduce make-up ap was an inferior solution to mine . . .

    And hopefully now it is clear to you how your initial error was compounded by your second. Attributing motivations to someone else is never a good idea. If you want to know, ask, but there's really no advantage in knowing. An idea is sound or not regardless of the motive behind putting it forth . . .

    Again, there was no initial error. Your motivation in the phrase was clear, you want the missing AP, not the unique rewards. If you think your motivation is any different then use different words. You clearly stated that the players will be missing AP, I responded to that.

    I've explained it twice now. But this isn't just something that will benefit you here if you can come around. It would be like a life lesson at this point . . .

    You misunderstood what you yourself typed.

    This should go in someone's sig. Not mine, bc that would be mean, but some impartial third party really deserves to have this . . .

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

    Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

    Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

    Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.

    :(
    Your point:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    My reply:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .

    How is that not responsive . . ?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.

    I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

    Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,

    They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .

    I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.

    Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .

    You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.

    I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

    As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.

    We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    So again your issue isn't with the unique rewards but exclusively with that little number associated with your account.
    Funny when I said that you called it a "misunderstanding", but now you make it rather obvious.

    ?

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game,
    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't tho . . .
    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    They can.
    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't.

    This might be helpful. Where, in your mind, did that exchange stop being about the rewards you mention and start being about ap, which isn't mentioned . . ?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    It really is . . .

    Your solution is to remove unique rewards. I said that all unique rewards are available to all players, how is it the same?

    You just described it as a problem to be solved . . .

    With the rather large condition of the game being dead first. But it's not dead.

    See? It's 'happening', as in, hasn't happened yet.

    That's how an infinite supply of something works.

    You're doing it again here. You're saying "see, imagine this possible time in the future when they problem would no longer exist'. If the problem didn't exist now, you would not need to hypothesize . . .

    It's not a problem that exists now because AP are still being added. When they stop, and considering the state of the game when they do, it might become a problem.

    Do you have evidence that the missing ap is not blocking players from unique rewards right now? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

    That's irrelevant. Do you have evidence that new AP won't be added to the game that will allow those players to get the unique rewards they are missing? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

    This is just a straight misunderstanding of word use then. The track has always included unique rewards, just as it has always included gem rewards, gold rewards, etc. If, in future portions of the track, no unique rewards exist, then unique rewards will have been removed from the track at that point. Your argument actually hinges on this eventual removal, and ofc the continued introducing of more ap thereafter. Note that this is not when I would think it best to remove the rewards, I think it should be done sooner. But it would be removal either way . . .

    That assumes that there is something beyond the 60k. Since we'll reach 60k in about 6.4 years it's premature to discuss that possibility.

    Then players will be forever locked out of some of those rewards. This actually wouldn't be a problem if not for the missing ap from lost content . . .

    No they won't be locked out of the rewards. They will finish the AP added to the game, it's still an active and alive game after all.

    except they don't. You're hoping that they will someday, which requires the rewards to be removed and ap to continue to increase to some amount past that point, to compensate for the missing ap . . .

    It doesn't require for the rewards to be removed and I'm not hoping anything. Again, if you have evidence that the game is gonna die soon, please share. I'm making the assumption that the game's death is far in the future, unless proven otherwise.

    I actually agreed that this future removal and continued introduction of ap would solve the problem, like two pages ago actually :p

    There was no future removal suggestion though so I'm not sure what or who you agreed with. Continued introduction of AP yes, it's something that already happens

    This is just absurd, and that's really saying something at this point. You're actually claiming to know my mind better than I do. Consider for yourself why I would mention missing ap in any context other than how it affects unique rewards, if by your own admission missing ap has nothing to do with my solution to the problem . . .

    I wonder that too. But you did mention it, you clearly stated that "They will still be missing the AP", which has nothing to do with unique rewards.

    I'm not sure we've ever left square one tbh. What you are trying to say is 'could' as in 'might be possible one day'. I'm talking about a problem that actually exists today, and would continue to exist in the future day you are referring to, unless the unique rewards are removed from the track . . .

    I think the problem here is that you fail to accept the fact that players have access to all the rewards. You are talking about a problem that doesn't exist today but will appear in the very far future. It's confusing that you propose a solution to something that might not be a problem in the first place and will appear in 6.4 years from now. Not only it's not a problem now, but it might not even be a problem then, it's a very specific set of parameters that will make this a problem in the very far future and you propose a "solution" for it now. Why?

    No, I presented it in reply to your suggestion that someone being 6k (your example) short of current rewards is irrelevant bc they would eventually reach current rewards as long as enough new ap is introduced. My point was that after another 6k ap was introduced, they would still be 6k short of what would then be current rewards, i.e. they would never recover the ap to catch up to current rewards. I actually specifically pointed out earlier in a reply to another poster why I thought trying to introduce make-up ap was an inferior solution to mine . . .

    I didnt' suggest anything, I spoke what is happening with achievements. Someone with 6k will reach all the rewards as new AP are being introduced. Your point was that they would still be missing the numbers (not the rewards, they will get there as you yourself just said) meaning you only cared about that number and not the rewards. Which is what confuses you and clouds your reasoning ever since.

    This should go in someone's sig. Not mine, bc that would be mean, but some impartial third party really deserves to have this . . .

    Well it's what you are doing. Typing something then putting words in other's posts coming out of nowhere.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

    Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

    Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

    Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.

    :(
    Your point:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    My reply:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .

    How is that not responsive . . ?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.

    I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

    This was already answered in this thread, you just selectively decided to omit the answer. Unique rewards behind AP are loyalty rewards for players who engage in gathering AP. You pretending like players would love to have these unique rewards removed is ignorant. Nor is it even healthy for the game. Feel free to ignore this answer though, just like the one last time.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,

    They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .

    I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.

    Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .

    You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.

    I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

    The AP is not fixed as long as new achievements get added into the game. Feel free to look at this issue from a singular point in time. That's short sighted and never a good idea for balance suggestions. AP are NOT fixed. They are in constant increase currently while the game is in development.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.

    We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

    This is where we both disagree. I don't think a large portion of the player base is affected by this, nor do I think any part of the player base significant enough even cares, as long as new achievements get added into the game.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    So again your issue isn't with the unique rewards but exclusively with that little number associated with your account.
    Funny when I said that you called it a "misunderstanding", but now you make it rather obvious.

    This might be helpful. Where, in your mind, did that exchange stop being about the rewards you mention and start being about ap, which isn't mentioned . . ?

    I quoted a different part when responding though. You are still fixated on the number of AP you, or others that missed S1, currently have. Since every player has access to and will acquire all possible rewards, the only reason to be as fixated about what you "can" and not what "you will" get is because you care about your current points. That requires some hardcore achievement caring right there. I didn't know anyone would be so obsessed with that number.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

    To burst your bubble right there. 10% of the players of this game have above 2878 Achievement Points. 90% are under that. Meaning that missing 5.8k AP from festivals + S1 affects such a tiny minority that is not even worth considering.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭

    I never cared for Achievements in any games, and i'm in no hurry to start now.. If achievements pop good for them but for me they are a waste of time and resources..

    Stupid Console ideas that should never have taken off.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    It really is . . .

    Your solution is to remove unique rewards. I said that all unique rewards are available to all players, how is it the same?

    You said that all unique rewards are available to all players, which isn't true. You've also said that as long as new cheeves are introduced, all players will eventually be able to unlock all unique rewards, so long as the introduction of unique rewards stops before the amount of ap available catches up enough to cover the gap created by the lost ap. This is the same thing as my solution, it just takes a lot longer. You're saying the problem will never exist as long as the rewards end before the ap catches up, I'm saying that since that hasn't happened, the problem exists now . . .

    You just described it as a problem to be solved . . .

    With the rather large condition of the game being dead first. But it's not dead.

    See? It's 'happening', as in, hasn't happened yet.

    That's how an infinite supply of something works.

    Well, first off the supply isn't infinite, but I get your point. My point is that the 'infinite' supply only catches up to the deficit if the unique rewards are removed at some point. At that point the supply would eventually become sufficient to unlock all rewards (even though the deficit would remain, it would be meaningless. See what I mean? It's about the rewards, not the ap) . . .

    You're doing it again here. You're saying "see, imagine this possible time in the future when they problem would no longer exist'. If the problem didn't exist now, you would not need to hypothesize . . .

    It's not a problem that exists now because AP are still being added. When they stop, and considering the state of the game when they do, it might become a problem.

    And what's really amazing is it doesn't even matter that you have no reason to believe ap will continue while unique rewards will not. It's like you're saying that since there is a theoretical future which could solve an existing problem, the problem does not in fact exist. This does not follow . . .

    Do you have evidence that the missing ap is not blocking players from unique rewards right now? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

    That's irrelevant.

    Well, it's pretty much my entire point so if you'd like to dispute it, it can't really be irrelevant ;p

    Do you have evidence that new AP won't be added to the game that will allow those players to get the unique rewards they are missing? I'll give you a hint, you don't :)

    Nor do I have any evidence that the unique rewards will one day stop being introduced. The difference is that I do have evidence that players are being blocked from unique rewards right now, you do not have evidence that players will be granted access to all unique rewards at some time in the future. You're just hoping, again . . .

    This is just a straight misunderstanding of word use then. The track has always included unique rewards, just as it has always included gem rewards, gold rewards, etc. If, in future portions of the track, no unique rewards exist, then unique rewards will have been removed from the track at that point. Your argument actually hinges on this eventual removal, and ofc the continued introducing of more ap thereafter. Note that this is not when I would think it best to remove the rewards, I think it should be done sooner. But it would be removal either way . . .

    That assumes that there is something beyond the 60k. Since we'll reach 60k in about 6.4 years it's premature to discuss that possibility.

    Well, i mean, it was your idea. I'm in favor of an earlier removal . . .

    Then players will be forever locked out of some of those rewards. This actually wouldn't be a problem if not for the missing ap from lost content . . .

    No they won't be locked out of the rewards. They will finish the AP added to the game, it's still an active and alive game after all.

    I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

    except they don't. You're hoping that they will someday, which requires the rewards to be removed and ap to continue to increase to some amount past that point, to compensate for the missing ap . . .

    It doesn't require for the rewards to be removed and I'm not hoping anything. Again, if you have evidence that the game is gonna die soon, please share. I'm making the assumption that the game's death is far in the future, unless proven otherwise.

    And so you're assuming that ap will continue to be introduced, but not rewards. Again I must ask why . . .

    I actually agreed that this future removal and continued introduction of ap would solve the problem, like two pages ago actually :p

    There was no future removal suggestion though so I'm not sure what or who you agreed with. Continued introduction of AP yes, it's something that already happens

    Okay, so what I'm saying is that the ap only helps if the rewards are eventually removed. If both ap and rewards continue to be introduced, we're in the same place we are now, just further along the line . . .

    This is just absurd, and that's really saying something at this point. You're actually claiming to know my mind better than I do. Consider for yourself why I would mention missing ap in any context other than how it affects unique rewards, if by your own admission missing ap has nothing to do with my solution to the problem . . .

    I wonder that too. But you did mention it, you clearly stated that "They will still be missing the AP", which has nothing to do with unique rewards.

    AP is actually how the rewards are unlocked. So if you now have X ap, and Y ap is lost to you, you would have received X+Y's rewards at this point if not for the missing ap. When some Z ap greater than Y is introduced in the future, you would then have unlocked X+Y+Z's rewards, not just X+Z's, if not for the missing ap. The missing ap never goes away, and goes directly to which rewards would be unlocked. Its value is not intrinsic, its value is in unlocking the rewards . . .

    I'm not sure we've ever left square one tbh. What you are trying to say is 'could' as in 'might be possible one day'. I'm talking about a problem that actually exists today, and would continue to exist in the future day you are referring to, unless the unique rewards are removed from the track . . .

    I think the problem here is that you fail to accept the fact that players have access to all the rewards.

    While I think the problem is that you fail to accept that they don't. The difference is that the fact that they don't is provable . . .

    You are talking about a problem that doesn't exist today but will appear in the very far future.

    No, I'm talking about a problem that does exist today but could disappear in the very far future . . .

    It's confusing that you propose a solution to something that might not be a problem in the first place and will appear in 6.4 years from now. Not only it's not a problem now, but it might not even be a problem then, it's a very specific set of parameters that will make this a problem in the very far future and you propose a "solution" for it now. Why?

    Bc it exists now, and the fact that a very specific set of parameters could make it go away at some point in the future doesn't really help in the present moment . . .

    No, I presented it in reply to your suggestion that someone being 6k (your example) short of current rewards is irrelevant bc they would eventually reach current rewards as long as enough new ap is introduced. My point was that after another 6k ap was introduced, they would still be 6k short of what would then be current rewards, i.e. they would never recover the ap to catch up to current rewards. I actually specifically pointed out earlier in a reply to another poster why I thought trying to introduce make-up ap was an inferior solution to mine . . .

    I didnt' suggest anything, I spoke what is happening with achievements. Someone with 6k will reach all the rewards as new AP are being introduced.

    And if 6k ap is lost to them right now, how much of that ap would not still be lost to them at that point . . ?

    Your point was that they would still be missing the numbers (not the rewards, they will get there as you yourself just said)

    Only if the rewards stop. I said that if they are 6k behind rn, then in another 6k of cheeves they would be caught up to the rewards they would have unlocked rn, but another 6k of cheeves would have also been unlocked by that point. I believe you said something about the rewards we currently know about stopping at 60k. Is the current max available plus 6k more or less than 60k . . ?

    meaning you only cared about that number and not the rewards. Which is what confuses you and clouds your reasoning ever since.

    Nope, still don't care, haven't cared at any point. I don't even know the numbers, I'm just using yours bc if I didn't it would be one more thing for you to argue about . . .

    This should go in someone's sig. Not mine, bc that would be mean, but some impartial third party really deserves to have this . . .

    Well it's what you are doing. Typing something then putting words in other's posts coming out of nowhere.

    Actually I'm correcting your misunderstandings while you insist on clinging to them . . .

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    This highest person EVER has hit just over 41,000.

    kitten, thought it was higher than that.
    one of my guildmates is over 40k and a good few of them are around 38-39k as well.
    Im in the 31-32K area myself but I don't hunt them often, more of a spur of the moment thing when im in the mood.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

    Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

    Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

    Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.

    :(
    Your point:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    My reply:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .

    How is that not responsive . . ?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.

    I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

    This was already answered in this thread, you just selectively decided to omit the answer. Unique rewards behind AP are loyalty rewards for players who engage in gathering AP. You pretending like players would love to have these unique rewards removed is ignorant. Nor is it even healthy for the game. Feel free to ignore this answer though, just like the one last time.

    I do remember that, but since I considered it resolved I didn't know it was what you were referring to. AP rewards are not loyalty rewards, but if that is the issue then the solution could dovetail nicely with my solution to the problem with the lost AP. After the unique rewards are removed from the AP track, they could be introduced into birthday gifts, which are loyalty rewards. Problem solved :)

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,

    They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .

    I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.

    Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .

    You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.

    I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

    The AP is not fixed as long as new achievements get added into the game. Feel free to look at this issue from a singular point in time. That's short sighted and never a good idea for balance suggestions. AP are NOT fixed. They are in constant increase currently while the game is in development.

    Yes, you are correct, AP is not fixed, but the lost ap is. If X ap is lost to you rn, it will continue to be lost to you at any point you choose in the future. Unless it is somehow reintroduced in some way, but I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good idea . . ?

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.

    We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

    This is where we both disagree. I don't think a large portion of the player base is affected by this, nor do I think any part of the player base significant enough even cares, as long as new achievements get added into the game.

    I think you're just using 'affected' differently. If a player is missing ap from the lost content, they are affected. So unless you do not believe that a large portion of the player base was not around for LS1, you would have to agree that a large portion of the player base is affected. It doesn't matter how much they care about it. I think we agree that it is not a major concern to many, if any, players, and I'm only considering a solution bc it is low cost . . .

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    So again your issue isn't with the unique rewards but exclusively with that little number associated with your account.
    Funny when I said that you called it a "misunderstanding", but now you make it rather obvious.

    This might be helpful. Where, in your mind, did that exchange stop being about the rewards you mention and start being about ap, which isn't mentioned . . ?

    I quoted a different part when responding though.

    I thought I was pretty careful in tracing that conversation, but if you feel you can find something I missed I can try to find why you became confused there for you instead . . .

    You are still fixated on the number of AP you, or others that missed S1, currently have.

    No, I'm fixated on how that amount blocks their access to unique rewards, and will continue to do so until the amount of ap available exceeds the available unique rewards by enough to eclipse the gap . . .

    Since every player has access to and will acquire all possible rewards,

    Both untrue. "All possible rewards" don't even exist yet, and very few players even bother to acquire the ones they do have access to . . .

    the only reason to be as fixated about what you "can" and not what "you will" get is because you care about your current points.

    Or if I cared about, say, for example -- and this is just total blue sky thinking here so bear with me -- the rewards that I currently have access to, rather than the rewards I might have access to in the future . . .

    That requires some hardcore achievement caring right there. I didn't know anyone would be so obsessed with that number.

    Oh I'm sure they exist. Probably just don't frequent the forums. There was that one guy earlier in the thread who had a bunch I think . . .

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

    To burst your bubble right there. 10% of the players of this game have above 2878 Achievement Points. 90% are under that. Meaning that missing 5.8k AP from festivals + S1 affects such a tiny minority that is not even worth considering.

    Just completely ignoring that your data is totally bogus for a moment, consider that's seven unique rewards locked behind that missing ap for that player at 2878. And when that player gets another 122, one of those unique rewards gets unlocked (yay :) ) but then, another 200 ap after that they are blocked from another reward until they get another 800 ap. And so it goes, unless and until the rewards stop, and they can finally catch up . . .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

    Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

    Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

    Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.

    :(
    Your point:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    My reply:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .

    How is that not responsive . . ?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.

    I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

    This was already answered in this thread, you just selectively decided to omit the answer. Unique rewards behind AP are loyalty rewards for players who engage in gathering AP. You pretending like players would love to have these unique rewards removed is ignorant. Nor is it even healthy for the game. Feel free to ignore this answer though, just like the one last time.

    I do remember that, but since I considered it resolved I didn't know it was what you were referring to. AP rewards are not loyalty rewards, but if that is the issue then the solution could dovetail nicely with my solution to the problem with the lost AP. After the unique rewards are removed from the AP track, they could be introduced into birthday gifts, which are loyalty rewards. Problem solved :)

    Well I see AP rewards as loyalty rewards. You can decide not to. Given they are in part granted for time sensitive events on a regular basis, we can both decide the other is incorrect.

    Again, your "solution" might sound great to you, to me personally it's terrible. I actually enjoy looking forward to what I might get with continued AP gain, even at a vastly reduced speed right now since I am quite capped. I'd assume there will be some other players in the same boat as me. Not to mention that birthday gifts are even worse a mechanic than AP as far as reward exclusivity goes.

    Given you need a very good reason to change the status quo, even if the status quo is not ideal, I still fail to see your argument as meeting this requirement.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,

    They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .

    I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.

    Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .

    You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.

    I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

    The AP is not fixed as long as new achievements get added into the game. Feel free to look at this issue from a singular point in time. That's short sighted and never a good idea for balance suggestions. AP are NOT fixed. They are in constant increase currently while the game is in development.

    Yes, you are correct, AP is not fixed, but the lost ap is. If X ap is lost to you rn, it will continue to be lost to you at any point you choose in the future. Unless it is somehow reintroduced in some way, but I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good idea . . ?

    Which does not matter if AP are not fixed UNTIL no new AP are introduced. Once that happens, you can revisit this issue. Until then, you are looking at this issue from a singular point in time, while most people disagreeing are looking at the bigger picture.

    I said reintroducing the AP was a bad idea from a resource stand point versus simply adding new AP. You have your own definition for why it might be bad or not bad, I really wouldn't know given you've been jumping around wildly in this thread by now.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.

    We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

    This is where we both disagree. I don't think a large portion of the player base is affected by this, nor do I think any part of the player base significant enough even cares, as long as new achievements get added into the game.

    I think you're just using 'affected' differently. If a player is missing ap from the lost content, they are affected.

    That is incorrect. They are affected IF they care about it and/or are at their AP cap. Otherwise they are not affected from a stand point of necessity of change or "fixing" or even caring. I used the word in context of how important this is to change and addressing this issue. Obviously everyone who is missing these AP is affected, but it would be kitten to assume or approach this issue from that perspective.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

    Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

    Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

    Actually no I can't, since you enjoy not addressing what other people said. Literally NOTHING you wrote addressed the points I made.

    :(
    Your point:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    My reply:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .

    How is that not responsive . . ?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You even admit your idea is imperfect but it's the best you came up with. I'm going one further: your idea is imperfect and addresses an issue which is not an issue at all to begin with but has a high chance of negatively impacting a lot of players.

    I'd be interested in hearing more about potential negative impacts . . .

    This was already answered in this thread, you just selectively decided to omit the answer. Unique rewards behind AP are loyalty rewards for players who engage in gathering AP. You pretending like players would love to have these unique rewards removed is ignorant. Nor is it even healthy for the game. Feel free to ignore this answer though, just like the one last time.

    I do remember that, but since I considered it resolved I didn't know it was what you were referring to. AP rewards are not loyalty rewards, but if that is the issue then the solution could dovetail nicely with my solution to the problem with the lost AP. After the unique rewards are removed from the AP track, they could be introduced into birthday gifts, which are loyalty rewards. Problem solved :)

    Well I see AP rewards as loyalty rewards. You can decide not to. Given they are in part granted for time sensitive events on a regular basis, we can both decide the other is incorrect.

    That's fair enough. I see loyalty rewards as rewards granted for being a long term player, such as birthday rewards, or for committing to the game in some way, like pre-purchasing, or purchasing before before part goes f2p, for example. And that's the broadest definition I could consider. Rewards for doing time sensitive events on a regular basis are rewards for doing the events . . .

    Again, your "solution" might sound great to you, to me personally it's terrible. I actually enjoy looking forward to what I might get with continued AP gain, even at a vastly reduced speed right now since I am quite capped. I'd assume there will be some other players in the same boat as me. Not to mention that birthday gifts are even worse a mechanic than AP as far as reward exclusivity goes.

    It wasn't really my solution though, it was a solution to another person's problem, which was that they wanted more loyalty rewards. If that person now decides they don't like the idea of loyalty rewards so much after all, we can just keep trying to find a better solution. Note that exclusivity is not the problem we're trying to solve here, inequity is . . .

    Given you need a very good reason to change the status quo, even if the status quo is not ideal, I still fail to see your argument as meeting this requirement.

    Inequity is more compelling to me. Ppl are different . . .

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Others have gone on explaining why it's not an issue,

    They haven't actually. They best anyone has done is explain why they don't care about it, which isn't the same thing . . .

    I just don't care to continue this circle debate and I doubt the developers will in any way change their approach of the last 8 years on a subject matter as this.

    Yes I don't really expect anything to change either. I would like for someone to try to come up with a better solution than mine instead of just pretending the problem doesn't exist, however . . .

    You keep assuming maximum available AP is fixed or of significant amount of importance to a big enough part of the players base. Simple answer: you are wrong.

    I have not made either of those assumptions. I have said that the amount of lost ap is fixed, which isn't an assumption, and I have very specifically stated that I have no way of knowing how important this is to anyone. I actually specifically said that I didn't think it was a huge deal, and was only worth considering due to the low dev cost . . .

    The AP is not fixed as long as new achievements get added into the game. Feel free to look at this issue from a singular point in time. That's short sighted and never a good idea for balance suggestions. AP are NOT fixed. They are in constant increase currently while the game is in development.

    Yes, you are correct, AP is not fixed, but the lost ap is. If X ap is lost to you rn, it will continue to be lost to you at any point you choose in the future. Unless it is somehow reintroduced in some way, but I thought we both agreed that wasn't a good idea . . ?

    Which does not matter if AP are not fixed UNTIL no new AP are introduced. Once that happens, you can revisit this issue. Until then, you are looking at this issue from a singular point in time, while most people disagreeing are looking at the bigger picture.

    This position just does not make any sense of any kind to me. The problem is affecting players right now. In this moment. Now is when the problem is occurring. The problem will continue to occur at every moment in time from now until the amount of ap available in the game exceeds the amount required to unlock all unique rewards plus enough to cover the gap created by the lost ap. Without any other action, the time when the problem could disappear by itself under a certain set of circumstances is very very distant . . .

    I said reintroducing the AP was a bad idea from a resource stand point versus simply adding new AP. You have your own definition for why it might be bad or not bad, I really wouldn't know given you've been jumping around wildly in this thread by now.

    Well I certainly won't apologize for carefully and individually replying to the concerns of everyone who expressed an interest in my idea, I am sorry if it was too much for you to keep up with. It's certainly understandable . . .

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As mentioned earlier, if you are affected by this lack of access to season 1 AP (as am I), sorry for you, but you don't make up a significant amount of the player base.

    We went over this already, but I'm guessing a large portion of the player base is affected by this. It would actually be very distressing to discover that gw2 hadn't grown enough since LS1 that a vast majority of players weren't. But, as also mentioned earlier, how I or any other individual player is affected isn't important. The problem should only be considered in the aggregate . . .

    This is where we both disagree. I don't think a large portion of the player base is affected by this, nor do I think any part of the player base significant enough even cares, as long as new achievements get added into the game.

    I think you're just using 'affected' differently. If a player is missing ap from the lost content, they are affected.

    That is incorrect. They are affected IF they care about it and/or are at their AP cap. Otherwise they are not affected from a stand point of necessity of change or "fixing" or even caring. I used the word in context of how important this is to change and addressing this issue. Obviously everyone who is missing these AP is affected, but it would be kitten to assume or approach this issue from that perspective.

    In other words what I said was exactly correct, you just don't consider affected players important until they are aware of how they are affected and care enough about it to meet some threshold. I disagree. Fixing problems ppl don't know they have is one of the most satisfying sorts of aid . . .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is incorrect. They are affected IF they care about it and/or are at their AP cap. Otherwise they are not affected from a stand point of necessity of change or "fixing" or even caring. I used the word in context of how important this is to change and addressing this issue. Obviously everyone who is missing these AP is affected, but it would be kitten to assume or approach this issue from that perspective.

    In other words what I said was exactly correct, you just don't consider affected players important until they are aware of how they are affected and care enough about it to meet some threshold. I disagree. Fixing problems ppl don't know they have is one of the most satisfying sorts of aid . . .

    Exactly, and in a world where resources are finite and decision must be made how to spend those, I'll stick with my decision to focus on issues which affect players in a noticeable way. This is not such an issue.

    Once the game is in maintenance mode AND players start caring about not being able to reach the maximum AP and rewards due to lack of new AP sources, then is the time for you to shine. Until then, take a more realistic and reasonable approach to this issue. Or not, your choice.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You said that all unique rewards are available to all players, which isn't true.

    As explained numerous times it is true. I'm not sure how this discussion reached this point and you still contest something like this. Is the game dead? No. Does the game add more achievement points? Yes. How exactly is a player blocked from achievement rewards?

    You've also said that as long as new cheeves are introduced, all players will eventually be able to unlock all unique rewards

    See above. Yes, all players will unlock all rewards, which is why it's confusing that this is till a point of contention.

    so long as the introduction of unique rewards stops before the amount of ap available catches up enough to cover the gap created by the lost ap.

    The introduction of unique rewards tops at 60k although that's a data mined limit and not a set one. It all depends on how long Arenanet wants this game to run for. They don't know how long it run for (nobody does) which is why trying to deal with the unique rewards without an end in sight is pointless.

    Well, first off the supply isn't infinite, but I get your point.

    It is an infinite supply until the game dies. At that point it will become finite, at the moment there is no end in sight.

    And what's really amazing is it doesn't even matter that you have no reason to believe ap will continue while unique rewards will not. It's like you're saying that since there is a theoretical future which could solve an existing problem, the problem does not in fact exist. This does not follow . . .

    The problem doesn't exist because all achievement rewards are still available to all players. I don't believe that unique rewards will stop, as I don't believe the achievement rewards have an actual cap, but there is a currently set cap at 60k, which is almost 6 years from now to reach. I'm quite positive not even the president of Arenanet knows what kind of unique rewards they will add in 6 years, or how many achievements they will introduce to the game by that point. The question is if the problem exists now, and it doesn't because the flow of achievements hasn't stopped.

    Nor do I have any evidence that the unique rewards will one day stop being introduced.

    You mean they will add unique rewards that they know nobody will reach? Or that they will specifically add some rewards designed to be out of reach by the exact amount of AP missing from season 1? That would be really pathetic low blow from the developers, so I'm confident they won't do that.

    I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

    See point above. I'm curious why you believe they will add a reward that is impossible to acquire unless you've played Season 1

    And so you're assuming that ap will continue to be introduced, but not rewards. Again I must ask why . . .

    See point above.

    Okay, so what I'm saying is that the ap only helps if the rewards are eventually removed. If both ap and rewards continue to be introduced, we're in the same place we are now, just further along the line . . .

    And I'll redirect you to the point above.

    While I think the problem is that you fail to accept that they don't. The difference is that the fact that they don't is provable . . .

    This is back to the top at first point.

    No, I'm talking about a problem that does exist today but could disappear in the very far future . . .

    The problem doesn't exist today, there is nothing to solve.

    Bc it exists now, and the fact that a very specific set of parameters could make it go away at some point in the future doesn't really help in the present moment . . .

    It doesn't exist now, it will only exist if a very particular set of parameters is introduced in the game. Namely the addition of a unique reward that can only be obtained by players who played Season 1 and the game is dead and doesn't provide any more AP. Until then it's a fictional problem.

    And if 6k ap is lost to them right now, how much of that ap would not still be lost to them at that point . . ?

    That's irrelevant, as long as the game lives, more AP will appear (see first point above)

    Only if the rewards stop. I said that if they are 6k behind rn, then in another 6k of cheeves they would be caught up to the rewards they would have unlocked rn, but another 6k of cheeves would have also been unlocked by that point. I believe you said something about the rewards we currently know about stopping at 60k. Is the current max available plus 6k more or less than 60k . . ?

    The rewards as we know them stop at 45k to be exact as there is no unique reward there. 60k is the data mined maximum for the titles. The actual cap is anyone's guess as we haven't reached that point in time yet.

    Nope, still don't care, haven't cared at any point. I don't even know the numbers, I'm just using yours bc if I didn't it would be one more thing for you to argue about . . .

    Since you don't care about rewards, because they are all available to you, the reasonable explanation for talking about missing AP is the number. That's the logical conclusion, but if you still dispute point 1 above (top of the post) I guess in your world it's something different.

    Actually I'm correcting your misunderstandings while you insist on clinging to them . . .

    That's what I'm doing.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I thought I was pretty careful in tracing that conversation, but if you feel you can find something I missed I can try to find why you became confused there for you instead

    As explained numerous times achievement rewards are available to everyone. You care about missing AP. It's 1+1

    No, I'm fixated on how that amount blocks their access to unique rewards, and will continue to do so until the amount of ap available exceeds the available unique rewards by enough to eclipse the gap . . .

    It doesn't block access, last I checked the game is still alive and kicking.

    Both untrue. "All possible rewards" don't even exist yet, and very few players even bother to acquire the ones they do have access to . . .

    All possible rewards are available to all players, even those that do not exist. Even if few players bother with them, that doesn't mean they are excluded, they can get them if they try. The key word is available.

    Or if I cared about, say, for example -- and this is just total blue sky thinking here so bear with me -- the rewards that I currently have access to, rather than the rewards I might have access to in the future . . .

    Which is irrelevant given how the game is still alive. If you are talking about a "I want it now" mentality then that's not healthy to be honest.

    Oh I'm sure they exist. Probably just don't frequent the forums. There was that one guy earlier in the thread who had a bunch I think . . .

    Having loads of AP and obsessing over missing some are two different things.

    Just completely ignoring that your data is totally bogus for a moment

    The data is from the official leaderboards, it shows just how much this community cares about achievement points. You assume that if the S1 achievements were even available, those players would have them (they wouldn't), meaning your entire argument about the missing AP is pointless.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    So? No player in the game can get all of those unique rewards. No player ever could. There always have been rewards beyond players' reach - because that's the very idea of this reward track.
    Remember, last reward we know of is at 60k AP, which is way beyond what is currently available. With the emphasis on currently.
    As long as you will work hard, and Anet will keep releasing new AP, you will eventually be able to reach any specific reward that you don't have at the moment. Yes, some will reach those rewards later, but that's because they either didn't work as hard, or started later.

    You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards, simply because you think you should be able to get to them faster than they did, but you can't. Seriously, anyone starting now is 7 years behind, and wanting that to suddenly go away, or, lacking that, to deprive the older players of the advantages of their longer play simply so you could be at the same level is not going to happen.
    You might as well ask Anet to remove from players all the rewards from past dailies/daily logins,, or the precursor drops from the initial Southsun event, just because someone starting now will never be able to get those back.

    Inequity is more compelling to me

    That inequity is a result of players not playing for the same amount of time. The only way to remove that kind of inequity is to do a total player wipe every time the game gets a new player. Although, considering that not everyone's playing time and schedule is the same, even that would not be enough. Perhaps the better idea would be to either prevent everyone from playing, or have all the rewards (of any kind) just accumulate automatically regardless if you're playing or not (and given retroactively to every new player as well).
    Although that does seem to me to be neither fun nor healthy.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    That is incorrect. They are affected IF they care about it and/or are at their AP cap. Otherwise they are not affected from a stand point of necessity of change or "fixing" or even caring. I used the word in context of how important this is to change and addressing this issue. Obviously everyone who is missing these AP is affected, but it would be kitten to assume or approach this issue from that perspective.

    In other words what I said was exactly correct, you just don't consider affected players important until they are aware of how they are affected and care enough about it to meet some threshold. I disagree. Fixing problems ppl don't know they have is one of the most satisfying sorts of aid . . .

    Exactly, and in a world where resources are finite and decision must be made how to spend those, I'll stick with my decision to focus on issues which affect players in a noticeable way. This is not such an issue.

    Which is why I keep pointing to the low dev costs every time you bring this up . . .

    Once the game is in maintenance mode AND players start caring about not being able to reach the maximum AP and rewards due to lack of new AP sources, then is the time for you to shine. Until then, take a more realistic and reasonable approach to this issue. Or not, your choice.

    Well once we're in maintenance mode, that would mean unique rewards will have been removed from the track. Presumably all of those festival cheeves that take 20+ years to repeat before you max out would cover the gap at that point. But my question remains, why wait . . ?

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You said that all unique rewards are available to all players, which isn't true.

    As explained numerous times it is true. I'm not sure how this discussion reached this point and you still contest something like this. Is the game dead? No. Does the game add more achievement points? Yes. How exactly is a player blocked from achievement rewards?

    Bc the present and the future are different things . . .

    You've also said that as long as new cheeves are introduced, all players will eventually be able to unlock all unique rewards

    See above. Yes, all players will unlock all rewards, which is why it's confusing that this is till a point of contention.

    See above. Yes, the future and the present are different . . .

    so long as the introduction of unique rewards stops before the amount of ap available catches up enough to cover the gap created by the lost ap.

    The introduction of unique rewards tops at 60k although that's a data mined limit and not a set one. It all depends on how long Arenanet wants this game to run for. They don't know how long it run for (nobody does) which is why trying to deal with the unique rewards without an end in sight is pointless.

    So shall we get back to the present, immediate problem then? Or will you continue to rely on some indefinite future to solve the problem . . ?

    Well, first off the supply isn't infinite, but I get your point.

    It is an infinite supply until the game dies. At that point it will become finite, at the moment there is no end in sight.

    Infinity doesn't have an 'until'. That's not the way infinity works . . .

    And what's really amazing is it doesn't even matter that you have no reason to believe ap will continue while unique rewards will not. It's like you're saying that since there is a theoretical future which could solve an existing problem, the problem does not in fact exist. This does not follow . . .

    The problem doesn't exist because all achievement rewards are still available to all players.

    Up to a limited, finite amount, which has been reduced by the lost content . . .

    I don't believe that unique rewards will stop, as I don't believe the achievement rewards have an actual cap,

    Then you don't believe the problem will ever be solved. I disagree, I think both unique rewards and ap will stop, and I think the ap at that point will be sufficient to surpass the unique rewards. But I don't see the point in waiting . . .

    but there is a currently set cap at 60k, which is almost 6 years from now to reach.

    So your solution is to wait six years and see if the problem fixes itself. I prefer a more active approach . . .

    So if I'm quite positive not even the president of Arenanet knows what kind of unique rewards they will add in 6 years, or how many achievements they will introduce to the game by that point. The question is if the problem exists now, and it doesn't because the flow of achievements hasn't stopped.

    It has actually, you're just confident it will start again, as am I. But again, that's no reason not to rectify the existing problem . . .

    Nor do I have any evidence that the unique rewards will one day stop being introduced.

    You mean they will add unique rewards that they know nobody will reach?

    I'm pretty sure they already have tbh . . .

    Or that they will specifically add some rewards designed to be out of reach by the exact amount of AP missing from season 1? That would be really pathetic low blow from the developers, so I'm confident they won't do that.

    I'm confident we could fix the problem right now. Let's . . .

    I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

    See point above. I'm curious why you believe they will add a reward that is impossible to acquire unless you've played Season 1

    Again I'm going to use your numbers here to avoid giving you additional facts to dispute. Your position is that anet has a current model for how much ap will be introduced into the game over the next six years? Look back over the last six years and try to figure out if that is reasonable . . .

    And so you're assuming that ap will continue to be introduced, but not rewards. Again I must ask why . . .

    See point above.

    So you're not saying that there will come a point where unique rewards are removed from the track but ap continues, but rather that anet has a planned end date for the game and is anticipating, six years out, how they will balance that ap against the rewards currently announced/datamined, ending the game in such a way that ap will exceed those rewards, but not by enough to extend the track into a stretch with no unique rewards . . ?

    Okay, so what I'm saying is that the ap only helps if the rewards are eventually removed. If both ap and rewards continue to be introduced, we're in the same place we are now, just further along the line . . .

    And I'll redirect you to the point above.

    I might have been helpful, then, to just make one reply instead of breaking it into four parts each referencing the first . . ?

    While I think the problem is that you fail to accept that they don't. The difference is that the fact that they don't is provable . . .

    This is back to the top at first point.

    Right, your failing to distinguish a present problem, existing in the current moment, with a potential future where they problem would have been solved. Try to focus on the present problem . . .

    No, I'm talking about a problem that does exist today but could disappear in the very far future . . .

    The problem doesn't exist today, there is nothing to solve.

    Tell me where to meet up, I want to see that uncontrollabe achiever title . . .

    Bc it exists now, and the fact that a very specific set of parameters could make it go away at some point in the future doesn't really help in the present moment . . .

    It doesn't exist now, it will only exist if a very particular set of parameters is introduced in the game. Namely the addition of a unique reward that can only be obtained by players who played Season 1 and the game is dead and doesn't provide any more AP.

    Which is where we are right now. There are rewards available -- at this present moment, the current time, the time in which we are existing -- in the game that cannot be unlocked unless you have access to the lost ap. We both agree that in the future more ap is likely to be release that will change the current unavailable reward into some other unavailable reward, but that does not solve the problem . . .

    Until then it's a fictional problem.

    I was pleased to disabuse you of this misperception . . .

    And if 6k ap is lost to them right now, how much of that ap would not still be lost to them at that point . . ?

    That's irrelevant, as long as the game lives, more AP will appear (see first point above)

    Again, we are in agreement that if the unique rewards are removed at some point in the future, the problem will be resolved. Try to focus on the problem that currently exists right now please. The one described in the comment you refused to address here . . .

    Only if the rewards stop. I said that if they are 6k behind rn, then in another 6k of cheeves they would be caught up to the rewards they would have unlocked rn, but another 6k of cheeves would have also been unlocked by that point. I believe you said something about the rewards we currently know about stopping at 60k. Is the current max available plus 6k more or less than 60k . . ?

    The rewards as we know them stop at 45k to be exact as there is no unique reward there. 60k is the data mined maximum for the titles. The actual cap is anyone's guess as we haven't reached that point in time yet.

    So you agree that the future is uncertain. Let's address the immediate, current problem then . . ?

    Nope, still don't care, haven't cared at any point. I don't even know the numbers, I'm just using yours bc if I didn't it would be one more thing for you to argue about . . .

    Since you don't care about rewards, because they are all available to you, the reasonable explanation for talking about missing AP is the number.

    So now you're saying I have the uncontrollable achiever title? I don't think that's correct, but I'll check . . .

    That's the logical conclusion, but if you still dispute point 1 above (top of the post) I guess in your world it's something different.

    Yes, very. Let's try a simple yes or no. Are the present and the future the same thing . . ?

    Actually I'm correcting your misunderstandings while you insist on clinging to them . . .

    That's what I'm doing.

    And I appreciate it. Please provide the information requested above about how the present and the future are the same thing and I currently have access to all rewards despite there not existing any way to unlock them at the current moment . . .

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I thought I was pretty careful in tracing that conversation, but if you feel you can find something I missed I can try to find why you became confused there for you instead

    As explained numerous times achievement rewards are available to everyone. You care about missing AP. It's 1+1

    You're now arguing that you do not need ap to unlock rewards? You seem to have tied yourself into a fairly intricate knot here . . .

    No, I'm fixated on how that amount blocks their access to unique rewards, and will continue to do so until the amount of ap available exceeds the available unique rewards by enough to eclipse the gap . . .

    It doesn't block access, last I checked the game is still alive and kicking.

    Alive, kicking, and missing ap due to lost content, barring access to rewards at this current time . . .

    Both untrue. "All possible rewards" don't even exist yet, and very few players even bother to acquire the ones they do have access to . . .

    All possible rewards are available to all players, even those that do not exist. Even if few players bother with them, that doesn't mean they are excluded, they can get them if they try. The key word is available.

    Okay, now I'm way more interested in meeting up to see all the rewards that don't exist. Forget about that uncontrollable achiever thing . . .

    Or if I cared about, say, for example -- and this is just total blue sky thinking here so bear with me -- the rewards that I currently have access to, rather than the rewards I might have access to in the future . . .

    Which is irrelevant given how the game is still alive. If you are talking about a "I want it now" mentality then that's not healthy to be honest.

    If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?

    Oh I'm sure they exist. Probably just don't frequent the forums. There was that one guy earlier in the thread who had a bunch I think . . .

    Having loads of AP and obsessing over missing some are two different things.

    And happily we're discussing neither. Shall we get back to addressing how we can repair the consequences of the lost content in the present . . ?

    Just completely ignoring that your data is totally bogus for a moment

    The data is from the official leaderboards, it shows just how much this community cares about achievement points.

    You said 'players'. The leaderboards only track main accounts?

    You assume that if the S1 achievements were even available, those players would have them (they wouldn't), meaning your entire argument about the missing AP is pointless.

    I think what it may mean is that you know you're wrong but you've dug yourself a hole so deep you declined to address the facts presented. Come into the light. It's nice over here, green grass and good times . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    So? No player in the game can get all of those unique rewards. No player ever could. There always have been rewards beyond players' reach - because that's the very idea of this reward track.
    Remember, last reward we know of is at 60k AP, which is way beyond what is currently available. With the emphasis on currently.

    Oh dear god please explain this to the other dude . . .

    As long as you will work hard, and Anet will keep releasing new AP, you will eventually be able to reach any specific reward that you don't have at the moment. Yes, some will reach those rewards later, but that's because they either didn't work as hard, or started later.

    Or bc there is content lost to the game. That's the part we're trying to fix. Don't lose sight of it . . .

    You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,

    No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .

    simply because you think you should be able to get to them faster than they did, but you can't.

    Except it doesn't really have anything to do with me? As I mentioned earlier, if I had a personal investment in this I wouldn't trust myself to be impartial . . .

    Seriously, anyone starting now is 7 years behind,

    Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .

    and wanting that to suddenly go away, or, lacking that, to deprive the older players of the advantages of their longer play simply so you could be at the same level is not going to happen.

    I think this may be the key to all the resistance. I think there may be players who feel like having been around for longer or played more or done different things means that the game somehow belongs more to them than to other 'lesser' players. And as one of the players who would fall more in the first category, I could see someone developing that perspective. But in order to keep the game alive and vibrant, players in the second category are far more important . . .

    You might as well ask Anet to remove from players all the rewards from past dailies/daily logins,, or the precursor drops from the initial Southsun event, just because someone starting now will never be able to get those back.

    They actually can get daily ap back, have been able to ever since it got capped (sadly). Nothing else you mention has created a gap in ongoing content . . .

    Inequity is more compelling to me

    That inequity is a result of players not playing for the same amount of time.

    No, there are players who have played since beta that are affected by this. It is a result of content being lost . . .

    The only way to remove that kind of inequity is to do a total player wipe every time the game gets a new player. Although, considering that not everyone's playing time and schedule is the same, even that would not be enough. Perhaps the better idea would be to either prevent everyone from playing, or have all the rewards (of any kind) just accumulate automatically regardless if you're playing or not (and given retroactively to every new player as well).
    Although that does seem to me to be neither fun nor healthy.

    So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .

  • How did this become an argument about removing achievement rewards?

    Achievement Points are cool, they allow you to get a point of recognition for doing something beyond what the regular goal is. EG. Killing a boss without getting hit by certain abilities, etc.
    You are rewarded for doing more than the bare minimum.
    Which is why I cannot agree that it should somehow be linked to loyalty. That's what character birthday's are for.

    Achievements are about rewarding you for going out of your way to do something extra.
    Which is why I cannot understand why doing dailies can reward you so many points per day. I get that it has a cap, but first off that cap is still fairly high and at the end of the day you are still getting 10AP for bare minimum really because you log in, you see some activities and there is a good chance that you were going to do most of those things anyway, maybe just on different maps or whatever.
    It doesn't take much extra out of you to do your dailies.

    Achievement Points are that which you generally have to go out of your way to do and it just seems as if you are not rewarded enough for the time you might put into them, especially based on individuals skill levels.

    And so what if the LWS1 AP is only a small amount missing, it is still missing when it never should have been and it is part of a bigger picture that LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.
    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?

    No. I would accept as a matter of course that i would not be able to catch up in all things to all the players that did play the game for all of those 6 years.
    I definitely would not expect the game to ensure those players didn't gain anything until i get back, nor would i expect the game to send me a copy of everything they have gained in the time i was gone, so i wouldn't feel like i am missing something.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    So? No player in the game can get all of those unique rewards. No player ever could. There always have been rewards beyond players' reach - because that's the very idea of this reward track.
    Remember, last reward we know of is at 60k AP, which is way beyond what is currently available. With the emphasis on currently.

    Oh dear god please explain this to the other dude . . .

    Oh, i think he does understand it. It's you that seem to be missing that the whole point of this reward track is that there are always supposed to be rewards in front of you. No matter how much APs you have, and whether you are at the current cap or not.
    As long as the game is still alive and new APs are still introduced, there should never be a moment when you could even theoretically get all AP reward track rewards. That would remove most of the reason behind the very existence of this reward track.

    As long as you will work hard, and Anet will keep releasing new AP, you will eventually be able to reach any specific reward that you don't have at the moment. Yes, some will reach those rewards later, but that's because they either didn't work as hard, or started later.

    Or bc there is content lost to the game. That's the part we're trying to fix. Don't lose sight of it . . .

    Nope. If they were playing then and took effort to do those achievements, those wouldn't be lost to them. If they are lost to them, then they either started later, or didn't put an effort then.
    If you start several years later, you should expect to be several years behind. If you put less effort than others, you should expect to be behind.

    You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,

    No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .

    Okay, answer then: how would the fact that someone starting now would need to wait 7 years to get a reward some people got last summer be different than him needing to wait a year or two of LS chapters to be able to get to the point veteran players are at with AP?
    Or, differently: someone worked hard for the last 7 years to get to certain AP level today. According to your idea, they should get rewarded exactly the same as someone that created a character at day one, went missing for 7 years, and came back yesterday. Just because you think that the second person should not need to work for the next 7 years, but should get rewarded immediately. How exactly do you consider it fair?

    simply because you think you should be able to get to them faster than they did, but you can't.

    Except it doesn't really have anything to do with me? As I mentioned earlier, if I had a personal investment in this I wouldn't trust myself to be impartial . . .

    Okay, so you personally have no problem with it. You are just acting in defence of some anegdotal players you don't really even know exist or care about all of this.
    Or, perhaps, you are not so impartial as you think.
    (by the way, how much of those APs are you personally missing? Since you are impartial, i assume you have all of them, right?)

    Seriously, anyone starting now is 7 years behind,

    Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .

    No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about them - and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A tiny minority.
    I mean, we're talking about less than 6k AP. Getting 6k Ap is trivial if you put just a little bit of effort - and yet a huge majority of players don't even have that much. Players that aren't willing to put an effort into getting even 6k AP out of those currently available should not concern themselves with those missing APs. After all, if those APs weren't missing, they wouldn't have obtained them anyway, because it would require way, way more effort than they've put into all the APs they've got so far.

    Inequity is more compelling to me

    That inequity is a result of players not playing for the same amount of time.

    No, there are players who have played since beta that are affected by this. It is a result of content being lost . . .

    No, if they have actually played since beta, as much as people that did get those achieves, they wouldn't be missing them. If they are missing them, they either weren't actually playing then, or they were playing, but weren't interested.

    The only way to remove that kind of inequity is to do a total player wipe every time the game gets a new player. Although, considering that not everyone's playing time and schedule is the same, even that would not be enough. Perhaps the better idea would be to either prevent everyone from playing, or have all the rewards (of any kind) just accumulate automatically regardless if you're playing or not (and given retroactively to every new player as well).
    Although that does seem to me to be neither fun nor healthy.

    So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .

    It is "the best available" only because any actually working and satisfying solution would require a lot of effort on Anet's part. Your idea may be simple and easy to implement, but it simply isn't good. Just like my idea of a total player wipe.

    Mind you, if you were really interested in fixing the problem of lost content, the only satisfying solution would be reintroducing LS1. Instead you're talking about removing rewards from AP track, which has absolutely nothing to do with that, and still leaves that lost content lost.Which suggests, that LS1 is not what you are truly concerned about. The thing that irks you, and the "problem" you are so eager to correct seemt so only be the situation where players that have played more and/or longer will be able to reach certain rewards faster than those that played shorter/less.
    It's not the lost LS1 that you care about. It's only the rewards.

    Personally, i'd really love for Anet to rework LS1 and bring it back in some form. I'm just realistic enough to realize that it definitely wouldn't be an easy (or cheap) project. I am also missing quite a number of those APs from that time - but i never even though that, because i didn't feel like putting enough effort then, i should now feel entitled to ask Anet to either "give them back" to me, or to halt the progress of those that did put more effort than me then until i'll catch up. Nor do i understand why you think it would be okay, or why are you trying to represent me (and people like me) when i don't remember ever asking that of you.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?

    No. I would accept as a matter of course that i would not be able to catch up in all things to all the players that did play the game for all of those 6 years.
    I definitely would not expect the game to ensure those players didn't gain anything until i get back, nor would i expect the game to send me a copy of everything they have gained in the time i was gone, so i wouldn't feel like i am missing something.

    This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    So? No player in the game can get all of those unique rewards. No player ever could. There always have been rewards beyond players' reach - because that's the very idea of this reward track.
    Remember, last reward we know of is at 60k AP, which is way beyond what is currently available. With the emphasis on currently.

    Oh dear god please explain this to the other dude . . .

    Oh, i think he does understand it.

    I think he does too. But like you above, he refuses to admit it bc in doing so he would be forced to acknowledge the problem that exists in the game today due to this lost content we are discussing . . .

    It's you that seem to be missing that the whole point of this reward track is that there are always supposed to be rewards in front of you. No matter how much APs you have, and whether you are at the current cap or not.

    This is actually intrinsic to the problem we are trying to solve. Your belief that there will always be rewards in front of you means that the gap created by the missing ap due to the lost content will never be closed. Those affected now will ever be effected, making a solution more valuable, not less . . .

    As long as the game is still alive and new APs are still introduced, there should never be a moment when you could even theoretically get all AP reward track rewards. That would remove most of the reason behind the very existence of this reward track.

    But in every moment, there will always be awards you would have access to if this content had not been lost due to a technical limitation. What is your aversion to addressing that problem? Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?

    As long as you will work hard, and Anet will keep releasing new AP, you will eventually be able to reach any specific reward that you don't have at the moment. Yes, some will reach those rewards later, but that's because they either didn't work as hard, or started later.

    Or bc there is content lost to the game. That's the part we're trying to fix. Don't lose sight of it . . .

    Nope. If they were playing then and took effort to do those achievements, those wouldn't be lost to them. If they are lost to them, then they either started later, or didn't put an effort then.
    If you start several years later, you should expect to be several years behind. If you put less effort than others, you should expect to be behind.

    It is your position then that players who started after LS2 do not have access to it? I can prove otherwise, but I'm afraid it wouldn't do any good :/

    You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,

    No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .

    Okay, answer then: how would the fact that someone starting now would need to wait 7 years to get a reward some people got last summer be different than him needing to wait a year or two of LS chapters to be able to get to the point veteran players are at with AP?
    Or, differently: someone worked hard for the last 7 years to get to certain AP level today. According to your idea, they should get rewarded exactly the same as someone that created a character at day one, went missing for 7 years, and came back yesterday. Just because you think that the second person should not need to work for the next 7 years, but should get rewarded immediately. How exactly do you consider it fair?

    The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key. Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .
    Something undesirable happened in the past and it has consequences in the present. Why would you not want to address them . . ?

    simply because you think you should be able to get to them faster than they did, but you can't.

    Except it doesn't really have anything to do with me? As I mentioned earlier, if I had a personal investment in this I wouldn't trust myself to be impartial . . .

    Okay, so you personally have no problem with it. You are just acting in defence of some anegdotal players you don't really even know exist or care about all of this.
    Or, perhaps, you are not so impartial as you think.
    (by the way, how much of those APs are you personally missing? Since you are impartial, i assume you have all of them, right?)

    Nope, I'm missing all of them. But I'm also missing a great deal of easily attainable ap. Bc ap isn't very impt to me. Which is what makes me impartial . . .
    Now, perhaps you can explain how the ap of a particular player affects how ap is missing from the game due to lost content, that loss being unintended and regrettable to the point that developers of the game are still focused on the error six years later. Oh, that's right, it doesn't. Probably why you wanted to talk about me instead of the problem I guess, huh . . ?

    Seriously, anyone starting now is 7 years behind,

    Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .

    No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about them

    Untrue . . .

    • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A tiny minority.

    You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .

    I mean, we're talking about less than 6k AP. Getting 6k Ap is trivial if you put just a little bit of effort - and yet a huge majority of players don't even have that much. Players that aren't willing to put an effort into getting even 6k AP out of those currently available should not concern themselves with those missing APs. After all, if those APs weren't missing, they wouldn't have obtained them anyway, because it would require way, way more effort than they've put into all the APs they've got so far.

    They would be available to them though. They would have had to go out of their way not to gather at least some of them . . .

    Inequity is more compelling to me

    That inequity is a result of players not playing for the same amount of time.

    No, there are players who have played since beta that are affected by this. It is a result of content being lost . . .

    No, if they have actually played since beta, as much as people that did get those achieves, they wouldn't be missing them. If they are missing them, they either weren't actually playing then, or they were playing, but weren't interested.

    And then the content was lost. I'm missing a lot of ap, as I've mentioned. This is bc, as I've also mentioned, I use ap primarily as a guide to new content. When I do not need new content, I pretty much ignore ap. If all the content in the game I haven't done yet disappeared, I would be affected by that. The fact that I hadn't gotten around to it yet doesn't change that reality. I regret that it doesn't fit your narrative :/

    The only way to remove that kind of inequity is to do a total player wipe every time the game gets a new player. Although, considering that not everyone's playing time and schedule is the same, even that would not be enough. Perhaps the better idea would be to either prevent everyone from playing, or have all the rewards (of any kind) just accumulate automatically regardless if you're playing or not (and given retroactively to every new player as well).
    Although that does seem to me to be neither fun nor healthy.

    So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .

    It is "the best available" only because any actually working and satisfying solution would require a lot of effort on Anet's part. Your idea may be simple and easy to implement, but it simply isn't good. Just like my idea of a total player wipe.

    So how could it be improved? It's low cost, addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated. What other steps could we take to improve the situation . . ?

    Mind you, if you were really interested in fixing the problem of lost content, the only satisfying solution would be reintroducing LS1. Instead you're talking about removing rewards from AP track, which has absolutely nothing to do with that, and still leaves that lost content lost.Which suggests, that LS1 is not what you are truly concerned about. The thing that irks you, and the "problem" you are so eager to correct seemt so only be the situation where players that have played more and/or longer will be able to reach certain rewards faster than those that played shorter/less.
    It's not the lost LS1 that you care about. It's only the rewards.

    I would love them to reintroduce LS1. But my understanding is that it is either impossible or difficult/expensive to the point that it is practically impossible. I think what confuses you is that accepting that LS1 is lost doesn't cause me to just throw up my hands, turn away and pretend there weren't problems created by that loss. As mentioned, several times, I like this idea bc it solves some of the problems created by the loss at a low cost. It is a good . . .
    If I, or anyone else, can come up with some ideas about how to brind LS1 back without any substantial cost, that would be great too . . .

    Personally, i'd really love for Anet to rework LS1 and bring it back in some form. I'm just realistic enough to realize that it definitely wouldn't be an easy (or cheap) project. I am also missing quite a number of those APs from that time - but i never even though that, because i didn't feel like putting enough effort then, i should now feel entitled to ask Anet to either "give them back" to me, or to halt the progress of those that did put more effort than me then until i'll catch up. Nor do i understand why you think it would be okay, or why are you trying to represent me (and people like me) when i don't remember ever asking that of you.

    I would imagine the same reason you feel entitled to make judgments about everyone else in the game. It's the only way to make decisions. You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    How did this become an argument about removing achievement rewards?

    Someone obsessed with rewards started derailing the thread with multi-quote posts, that's how.

    Which is why I cannot understand why doing dailies can reward you so many points per day.

    They streamlined the system, that's why. In the old system you could get 1 AP for each daily completed, with a maximum of 12 (or was it 14), PVP and WVW dailies were counted separately. In order to get 10 AP you had to do 10 achievements, comparable to the 3 you must do today. And to get all points you had to go to PVP and WVW as well. Dailies are now too rewarding but they couldn't reduce their AP rewards, those doing dailies would be upset their daily intake of AP was severed (there was already an outrage because the max was 10, less than before) and the new dailies take only 3 steps to complete in order to make dailies faster, and more rewarding for players that have little play time. Understand that it's an updated system and not a new one.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Bc the present and the future are different things . . .

    Not really important when discussing a system that provides future rewards.

    So shall we get back to the present, immediate problem then? Or will you continue to rely on some indefinite future to solve the problem . . ?

    There is no problem in the present. I will continue to rely on the future so as the problem doesn't even appear. I already outlined the set conditions that will make this problem of yours appear in the future.

    Infinity doesn't have an 'until'. That's not the way infinity works . . .

    If it was finite we'd have a cap, since there is no cap it's infinite. Unless you know the limit then do tell.

    Then you don't believe the problem will ever be solved.

    There is no problem to solve.

    So your solution is to wait six years and see if the problem fixes itself. I prefer a more active approach . . .

    I prefer to wait six years to see IF the problem even appears first. I prefer fixing problems when they exist, not take steps to "fix" them before they even appear.

    But again, that's no reason not to rectify the existing problem . . .

    Because there is no existing problem.

    I'm pretty sure they already have tbh . . .

    Really? Did the game stop adding achievements and I don't know about it? There is no reward you cannot get.

    I'm confident we could fix the problem right now. Let's . . .

    There is no problem so nothing to fix.

    I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

    See point above. I'm curious why you believe they will add a reward that is impossible to acquire unless you've played Season 1

    Again I'm going to use your numbers here to avoid giving you additional facts to dispute. Your position is that anet has a current model for how much ap will be introduced into the game over the next six years? Look back over the last six years and try to figure out if that is reasonable . . .

    You didn't provide any facts so far, you are actually the one disputing facts and it's getting tiring.
    Is there a reward that you can acquire only if you've played Season 1? No, because all the rewards are available to all players.

    So you're not saying that there will come a point where unique rewards are removed from the track but ap continues, but rather that anet has a planned end date for the game and is anticipating, six years out, how they will balance that ap against the rewards currently announced/datamined, ending the game in such a way that ap will exceed those rewards, but not by enough to extend the track into a stretch with no unique rewards . . ?

    There is no plan. There is no point to have a plan anticipating the end of a game. It's still going strong.

    Right, your failing to distinguish a present problem, existing in the current moment, with a potential future where they problem would have been solved. Try to focus on the present problem . . .

    There is no problem at present and it doesn't exist at the current moment. It's only an imaginary problem came up only by you alone.

    Tell me where to meet up, I want to see that uncontrollabe achiever title . . .

    Is the game dead? No. You will see it in due time.

    Which is where we are right now. There are rewards available -- at this present moment, the current time, the time in which we are existing -- in the game that cannot be unlocked unless you have access to the lost ap.

    Irrelevant. The game isn't dead so there is no present problem.

    We both agree that in the future more ap is likely to be release that will change the current unavailable reward into some other unavailable reward, but that does not solve the problem . . .

    There is future AP likely to release that will make all rewards available. There is no problem to solve.

    I was pleased to disabuse you of this misperception . . .

    You did nothing of the sort. You haven't provided any evidence of this problem existing. Which is hilarious considering you've been posting so much and you haven't proven that your problem exist yet!

    Again, we are in agreement that if the unique rewards are removed at some point in the future, the problem will be resolved.

    No.

    Try to focus on the problem that currently exists right now please. The one described in the comment you refused to address here . . .

    There is no problem that exists now. You haven't provided any shred of evidence that it does.

    So you agree that the future is uncertain. Let's address the immediate, current problem then . . ?

    There is no immediate, current, problem.

    So now you're saying I have the uncontrollable achiever title? I don't think that's correct, but I'll check . . .

    That's irrelevant.

    Yes, very. Let's try a simple yes or no. Are the present and the future the same thing . . ?

    Irrelevant. Achievement rewards are about the future, not the present. Not all their rewards being available at any given present time is irrelevant.

    And I appreciate it. Please provide the information requested above about how the present and the future are the same thing and I currently have access to all rewards despite there not existing any way to unlock them at the current moment . . .

    Please provide any information that this problem of yours exists.
    You do have access to all the rewards at the given time. You need the AP, that will come in time, to get them.

    You're now arguing that you do not need ap to unlock rewards? You seem to have tied yourself into a fairly intricate knot here . . .

    You don't need specific AP to unlock rewards. Or isn't that obvious?

    Alive, kicking, and missing ap due to lost content, barring access to rewards at this current time . . .

    Which is irrelevant and not a problem.

    Okay, now I'm way more interested in meeting up to see all the rewards that don't exist. Forget about that uncontrollable achiever thing . . .

    You will see them once more achievements are added to the game.

    If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?

    We'll see in six years.

    And happily we're discussing neither. Shall we get back to addressing how we can repair the consequences of the lost content in the present . . ?

    There are no consequences of the lost content regarding achievement rewards, other consequences yes. You are the one that derailed the thread towards something that doesn't exist. And the OP of the thread politely asked to return to the topic at hand. But I doubt you will be able to do that.

    You said 'players'. The leaderboards only track main accounts?

    And? A player having multiple accounts that have low AP totals is irrelevant. The amount of accounts with high enough AP totals is what counts. And it's fairly low.

    You assume that if the S1 achievements were even available, those players would have them (they wouldn't), meaning your entire argument about the missing AP is pointless.

    I think what it may mean is that you know you're wrong but you've dug yourself a hole so deep you declined to address the facts presented. Come into the light. It's nice over here, green grass and good times . . .

    I'm not sure how this answers the question. Since the vast majority of players has less points even than the Season 1 achievements (disregarding festivals) talking about those points is rather meaningless.

    I'm waiting for a good explanation of this problem of yours, the facts show that there is no problem yet you continue talking about it. What is it exactly?

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.
    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

    Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

    Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

    Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

    You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . .

    ...what? I mean, if you didn't play the game for 6 years, then it's a problem on your side, not on game's side. Perhaps you were truly unable, but perhaps you simply weren;t interested. The game really shouldn't care either way - it should primarily concern itself with the people that do play.

    It's you that seem to be missing that the whole point of this reward track is that there are always supposed to be rewards in front of you. No matter how much APs you have, and whether you are at the current cap or not.

    This is actually intrinsic to the problem we are trying to solve. Your belief that there will always be rewards in front of you means that the gap created by the missing ap due to the lost content will never be closed. Those affected now will ever be effected, making a solution more valuable, not less . . .

    Yes, those that started to run later, or run slower will not be able to catch up to those in the lead, unless those people stop on their own. I don't see a problem with that, as it is really not a race, and everyone will get to each checkpoint on the way at their own pace anyway. I certainly do not see a reason why the people in the lead have to be stopped in order for those that started late to catch up.

    As long as the game is still alive and new APs are still introduced, there should never be a moment when you could even theoretically get all AP reward track rewards. That would remove most of the reason behind the very existence of this reward track.

    But in every moment, there will always be awards you would have access to if this content had not been lost due to a technical limitation.

    No, there would be a reward i would have access to if only i started playing earlier, or put more effort in it in the past. That's not the same. And it's not like i won't have access to that reward - i will get to it eventually, if i'll keep putting effort into it.
    Notice, by the way, that's true to people missing ANY AP, not only those frol LS1.
    At this moment there's definitely an award that you would have access to if only you raided more, or played SPvP/WvW more, or...
    ...but you didn't.

    What is your aversion to addressing that problem?

    The fact that i'm still not persuaded that the problem exists, but very certain that your proposed "solution" actually accomplishes nothing positive whatsoever (and causes some problems of its own).

    Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?

    I am not. It's just that you're not addressing the problem, but simply creating a new one.

    It is your position then that players who started after LS2 do not have access to it? I can prove otherwise, but I'm afraid it wouldn't do any good :/

    No, but then your problem is not about people not having access to LS1. That is a very valid problem, and well worth discussion about, but you keep concentrating on something else completely.

    You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,

    No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .

    Okay, answer then: how would the fact that someone starting now would need to wait 7 years to get a reward some people got last summer be different than him needing to wait a year or two of LS chapters to be able to get to the point veteran players are at with AP?
    Or, differently: someone worked hard for the last 7 years to get to certain AP level today. According to your idea, they should get rewarded exactly the same as someone that created a character at day one, went missing for 7 years, and came back yesterday. Just because you think that the second person should not need to work for the next 7 years, but should get rewarded immediately. How exactly do you consider it fair?

    The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key.

    It wasn't lost unintentionally. It was specifically designed that way. It was a mistake, but at that time it was very much intentional.

    Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .

    Again, you are not addressing the problem of missing LS1 at all. You are addressing the "problem" of some of the most hardworking veteran players having access to rewards you don't have access to yet. The content you speak of would still be unavailable.

    Something undesirable happened in the past and it has consequences in the present. Why would you not want to address them . . ?

    I would. You on the other hand seem to be fixated on something else completely.

    Now, perhaps you can explain how the ap of a particular player affects how ap is missing from the game due to lost content, that loss being unintended and regrettable to the point that developers of the game are still focused on the error six years later.

    Again, it wasn't the loss of AP that was regrettable, but the loss of the story. And, like i already said, it wasn't really unintended either - they very much intended for the story to be transient then. They've just changed their minds later on.

    Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .

    No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about them

    Untrue . . .

    If someone doesn't care they don't have more APs accessible, then the loss of those APs doesn't affect them.

    • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A tiny minority.

    You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .

    Yes, you don't. But if you didn't even try to go for easily attainable APs, then you are not affected by not having access to one more source you would have ignored anyway.

    I mean, we're talking about less than 6k AP. Getting 6k Ap is trivial if you put just a little bit of effort - and yet a huge majority of players don't even have that much. Players that aren't willing to put an effort into getting even 6k AP out of those currently available should not concern themselves with those missing APs. After all, if those APs weren't missing, they wouldn't have obtained them anyway, because it would require way, way more effort than they've put into all the APs they've got so far.

    They would be available to them though. They would have had to go out of their way not to gather at least some of them . . .

    But would they care? I mean, if the majority of players cared about APs, the AP distribution among the player population would look completely different from what it is now.
    If LS1 ap was still available, perhaps the average AP would go up by like 50 points at best.

    And then the content was lost.

    Yes. And your "solution" changes absolutely nothing about it - the content (LS1) would still be lost.

    So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .

    And yet that "best" idea still solves nothing., as LS1 would still be lost.
    By the way, i did present an idea. Player wipe. It is as easy and cheap as yours, and it accomplishes about as much as yours. And I don't see what makes your "solution" any better.

    It is "the best available" only because any actually working and satisfying solution would require a lot of effort on Anet's part. Your idea may be simple and easy to implement, but it simply isn't good. Just like my idea of a total player wipe.

    So how could it be improved?

    It would have to be completely scrapped for that.

    It's low cost

    True. Unfortunately that's its only good quality.
    Hint: i don't buy things only because they are cheap. If i did that, i would end up with a ton of trash i would have no need of.

    , addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated.

    On the contrary, it does leave the core issue (missing LS1) completely untouched. It solves nothing, while causing additional problems. You are perfectly willing to dismantle the whole AP rewards system in order to solve an issue that affects maybe a handful of players, while leaving the real problem completely untouched.

    I just don't see how you can "improve" on that without changing absolutely everything about this "solution".

    Mind you, if you were really interested in fixing the problem of lost content, the only satisfying solution would be reintroducing LS1. Instead you're talking about removing rewards from AP track, which has absolutely nothing to do with that, and still leaves that lost content lost.Which suggests, that LS1 is not what you are truly concerned about. The thing that irks you, and the "problem" you are so eager to correct seemt so only be the situation where players that have played more and/or longer will be able to reach certain rewards faster than those that played shorter/less.
    It's not the lost LS1 that you care about. It's only the rewards.

    I would love them to reintroduce LS1. But my understanding is that it is either impossible or difficult/expensive to the point that it is practically impossible. I think what confuses you is that accepting that LS1 is lost doesn't cause me to just throw up my hands, turn away and pretend there weren't problems created by that loss. As mentioned, several times, I like this idea bc it solves some of the problems created by the loss at a low cost. It is a good . . .

    Except the "problem" of missing APs is not a problem at all, because in reality it doesn't deprive anyone of anything. At best it might delay some rewards for a small number of players. And this "low cost" you speak of is a complete destruction of a system that so far was working mostly fine, and is generally positively received by the population.

    You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "

    Oh, i did look at the situation, and that's exactly why i think that your "solution" is just bad for everyone.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Bc the present and the future are different things . . .

    Not really important when discussing a system that provides future rewards.

    But of crucial significance when discussing a present problem . . .

    So shall we get back to the present, immediate problem then? Or will you continue to rely on some indefinite future to solve the problem . . ?

    There is no problem in the present. I will continue to rely on the future so as the problem doesn't even appear. I already outlined the set conditions that will make this problem of yours appear in the future.

    You described how the future will solve the problem that exists in the present if we wait long enough. I would prefer not to wait . . .

    Infinity doesn't have an 'until'. That's not the way infinity works . . .

    If it was finite we'd have a cap, since there is no cap it's infinite. Unless you know the limit then do tell.

    So we've discovered another word you're not using correctly. It makes it difficult to communicate . . .

    Then you don't believe the problem will ever be solved.

    There is no problem to solve.

    Pls read thread . . .

    So your solution is to wait six years and see if the problem fixes itself. I prefer a more active approach . . .

    I prefer to wait six years to see IF the problem even appears first. I prefer fixing problems when they exist, not take steps to "fix" them before they even appear.

    Get back to me then pls, I will continue to suggest solutions to problems in the interim . . .

    But again, that's no reason not to rectify the existing problem . . .

    Because there is no existing problem.

    Pls show me how to select the rewards that would have been unlocked by the ap missing from the lost content at this time. I cannot find them in my UI. An oversight on my part I am certain . . .

    I'm pretty sure they already have tbh . . .

    Really? Did the game stop adding achievements and I don't know about it? There is no reward you cannot get.

    Yes. Should resume up next release though, I would think . . .

    I'm confident we could fix the problem right now. Let's . . .

    There is no problem so nothing to fix.

    Again, I'm sure it's just an oversight on my part. Pls describe how I can select those rewards. I'm at my UI rn, just tabbed over . . .

    I'm curious as to why you have this faith in the continued introduction of ap, but not in the continued introduction of rewards . . ?

    See point above. I'm curious why you believe they will add a reward that is impossible to acquire unless you've played Season 1

    Again I'm going to use your numbers here to avoid giving you additional facts to dispute. Your position is that anet has a current model for how much ap will be introduced into the game over the next six years? Look back over the last six years and try to figure out if that is reasonable . . .

    You didn't provide any facts so far, you are actually the one disputing facts and it's getting tiring.
    Is there a reward that you can acquire only if you've played Season 1? No, because all the rewards are available to all players.

    Yes, lots. Seven in that example you chose to ignore earlier . . .

    So you're not saying that there will come a point where unique rewards are removed from the track but ap continues, but rather that anet has a planned end date for the game and is anticipating, six years out, how they will balance that ap against the rewards currently announced/datamined, ending the game in such a way that ap will exceed those rewards, but not by enough to extend the track into a stretch with no unique rewards . . ?

    There is no plan. There is no point to have a plan anticipating the end of a game. It's still going strong.

    So you acknowledge not only that you have no solution for the existing problem, but that your faith in a future when the problem would resolve itself is unfounded, a mere hope . . .

    Right, your failing to distinguish a present problem, existing in the current moment, with a potential future where they problem would have been solved. Try to focus on the present problem . . .

    There is no problem at present and it doesn't exist at the current moment. It's only an imaginary problem came up only by you alone.

    Pls provide the info requested . . .

    Tell me where to meet up, I want to see that uncontrollabe achiever title . . .

    Is the game dead? No. You will see it in due time.

    Thank you. I thought I'd lost you. Now that you can distinguish the present from the future, pls address the present concern . . .

    Which is where we are right now. There are rewards available -- at this present moment, the current time, the time in which we are existing -- in the game that cannot be unlocked unless you have access to the lost ap.

    Irrelevant. The game isn't dead so there is no present problem.

    Irrelevant to you perhaps, not irrelevant to the topic at hand . . .

    We both agree that in the future more ap is likely to be release that will change the current unavailable reward into some other unavailable reward, but that does not solve the problem . . .

    There is future AP likely to release that will make all rewards available. There is no problem to solve.

    And we've lost you again. The future is not the present. Pls address present concerns with present solutions . . .

    I was pleased to disabuse you of this misperception . . .

    You did nothing of the sort. You haven't provided any evidence of this problem existing. Which is hilarious considering you've been posting so much and you haven't proven that your problem exist yet!

    Your inability to distinguish the present from the future is at fault there, I'm afraid. It's my sincere hope that your understanding of time improves at some point in the future, as it is your predominant problem in the present . . .

    Again, we are in agreement that if the unique rewards are removed at some point in the future, the problem will be resolved.

    No.

    Pls explain how the problem could be resolved without the removal of the unique rewards. Use any specific example you like . . .

    Try to focus on the problem that currently exists right now please. The one described in the comment you refused to address here . . .

    There is no problem that exists now. You haven't provided any shred of evidence that it does.

    It requires only the ability to count. Can you demonstrate this ability . . ?

    So you agree that the future is uncertain. Let's address the immediate, current problem then . . ?

    There is no immediate, current, problem.

    The rewards that would be unlocked at the immediate, current moment are less than they would be for many players due to content lost to a technical limitation. That is a current problem. Your solution to that current problem is that if we wait for more ap to be introduced, those rewards will be unlocked at that future time. What you willfully ignore is that ofc more unavailable rewards will have been unlocked at that point. Ignoring something is not the same thing as it not existing . . .

    So now you're saying I have the uncontrollable achiever title? I don't think that's correct, but I'll check . . .

    That's irrelevant.

    Only if you are uninterested in reality . . .

    Yes, very. Let's try a simple yes or no. Are the present and the future the same thing . . ?

    Irrelevant. Achievement rewards are about the future, not the present. Not all their rewards being available at any given present time is irrelevant.

    So I don't have any achievement rewards in the present. Again, I can prove that is not true, but you do not find reality persuasive, so I'm at a loss . . .

    And I appreciate it. Please provide the information requested above about how the present and the future are the same thing and I currently have access to all rewards despite there not existing any way to unlock them at the current moment . . .

    Please provide any information that this problem of yours exists.

    Done. Pls read thread and reply in a reality-based manner. Ty . . .

    You do have access to all the rewards at the given time. You need the AP, that will come in time, to get them.

    Correct! Now apply this distinction you have learned about the present and the future to the present, rather than the future . . .

    You're now arguing that you do not need ap to unlock rewards? You seem to have tied yourself into a fairly intricate knot here . . .

    You don't need specific AP to unlock rewards. Or isn't that obvious?

    Lost ap cannot be covered by subsequently introduced ap, as each ap is only attainable once . . .

    Alive, kicking, and missing ap due to lost content, barring access to rewards at this current time . . .

    Which is irrelevant and not a problem.

    Actually it's the exact problem. A problem you cannot address without acknowledging your errors, which you have not yet learned to do, thus the knot . . .

    Okay, now I'm way more interested in meeting up to see all the rewards that don't exist. Forget about that uncontrollable achiever thing . . .

    You will see them once more achievements are added to the game.

    Okay, I take it back, you did admit your error. Thank you again. Now address the problem . . .

    If you were unable to log into the game right now, but you could be assured that you would be able to at some point six years hence, would you identify that as a problem or not so much . . ?

    We'll see in six years.

    We'll miss you in the interim . . .

    And happily we're discussing neither. Shall we get back to addressing how we can repair the consequences of the lost content in the present . . ?

    There are no consequences of the lost content regarding achievement rewards, other consequences yes. You are the one that derailed the thread towards something that doesn't exist. And the OP of the thread politely asked to return to the topic at hand. But I doubt you will be able to do that.

    Every player who does not have the lost ap is further behind on the track than they would be at the current moment. There are many ways to address that. I chose to offer a solution. You choose to pretend that isn't true. As poor as my solution may be, it is still preferable to ignoring the reality of the situation . . .

    You said 'players'. The leaderboards only track main accounts?

    And? A player having multiple accounts that have low AP totals is irrelevant. The amount of accounts with high enough AP totals is what counts. And it's fairly low.

    That word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means . . .

    You assume that if the S1 achievements were even available, those players would have them (they wouldn't), meaning your entire argument about the missing AP is pointless.

    I think what it may mean is that you know you're wrong but you've dug yourself a hole so deep you declined to address the facts presented. Come into the light. It's nice over here, green grass and good times . . .

    I'm not sure how this answers the question. Since the vast majority of players has less points even than the Season 1 achievements (disregarding festivals) talking about those points is rather meaningless.

    Assuming X and Y are both positive integers, X+Y is always greater than X. It's math . . .

    I'm waiting for a good explanation of this problem of yours, the facts show that there is no problem yet you continue talking about it. What is it exactly?

    Content was lost. Consequences ensued. Solutions were posed. You put your head in the sand . . .

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.
    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

    Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

    Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

    Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

    You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

    That is very well described, thank you. Now, given that we all agree that the experiment failed, and that repairing the failure is cost-prohibitive, why would you not want to mitigate the damage of the failure . . ?

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . .

    ...what? I mean, if you didn't play the game for 6 years, then it's a problem on your side, not on game's side. Perhaps you were truly unable, but perhaps you simply weren;t interested. The game really shouldn't care either way - it should primarily concern itself with the people that do play.

    I found it difficult to believe that someone so indifferent to the game that they claimed they wouldn't care whether they could log in for the next six years would bother posting on the game's forum . . .

    It's you that seem to be missing that the whole point of this reward track is that there are always supposed to be rewards in front of you. No matter how much APs you have, and whether you are at the current cap or not.

    This is actually intrinsic to the problem we are trying to solve. Your belief that there will always be rewards in front of you means that the gap created by the missing ap due to the lost content will never be closed. Those affected now will ever be effected, making a solution more valuable, not less . . .

    Yes, those that started to run later, or run slower will not be able to catch up to those in the lead, unless those people stop on their own. I don't see a problem with that, as it is really not a race, and everyone will get to each checkpoint on the way at their own pace anyway. I certainly do not see a reason why the people in the lead have to be stopped in order for those that started late to catch up.

    And how would you address the shortcut that was closed after some players ran through, to use your analogy? There are runners that are farther behind than they would be, if the tracks designers had not been forced to close that portion of the track against their will . . .

    As long as the game is still alive and new APs are still introduced, there should never be a moment when you could even theoretically get all AP reward track rewards. That would remove most of the reason behind the very existence of this reward track.

    But in every moment, there will always be awards you would have access to if this content had not been lost due to a technical limitation.

    No, there would be a reward i would have access to if only i started playing earlier, or put more effort in it in the past. That's not the same. And it's not like i won't have access to that reward - i will get to it eventually, if i'll keep putting effort into it.

    You'll have to do more to explain this to me. Are you saying the content is not missing, or that it's missing intentionally, or that you agree it's missing due to a technical limitation, but you just don't care about how that affects other players? Bc I already let you know two pages ago that if that was your attitude, I could accept and disagree with it. You don't need to justify it . . .

    Notice, by the way, that's true to people missing ANY AP, not only those frol LS1.
    At this moment there's definitely an award that you would have access to if only you raided more, or played SPvP/WvW more, or...
    ...but you didn't.

    What you're ignoring here is that the ap you're describing is still available in the game. I can still pursue it. Even if LS1 had been designed as a jump start for early adopters I would agree with your point. Don't confuse missing ap due to lost content with ap that a player has available but has chosen not to pursue or even ap that anet has intentionally removed from the game . . .

    What is your aversion to addressing that problem?

    The fact that i'm still not persuaded that the problem exists, but very certain that your proposed "solution" actually accomplishes nothing positive whatsoever (and causes some problems of its own).

    The existence of the problem rests on three basic tenets. There is ap that was once available, and is no longer. This is due to a limitation that the game's designers recognize as an error. That missing ap cannot, at present, be recovered. Which of those three tenets do you disagree with? To say 'the problem doesn't exist', you must disbelieve one of those three statements, which are all three provably true. What I think you're trying to say is that you just don't care about the effects of the problem, which is not at all the same thing . . .

    Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?

    I am not. It's just that you're not addressing the problem, but simply creating a new one.

    That's flattering, but I was actually not involved with any the facts presented in any of the three statements above . . .

    It is your position then that players who started after LS2 do not have access to it? I can prove otherwise, but I'm afraid it wouldn't do any good :/

    No, but then your problem is not about people not having access to LS1. That is a very valid problem, and well worth discussion about, but you keep concentrating on something else completely.

    That's because as others have explained, we can't do anything about missing LS1. We can only address the consequences . . .

    You however want to deprive the hardest and most veteran players of rewards,

    No, I said we could put them in birthday gifts, as an example. There are probably better ideas out there. See if you can come up with some . . .

    Okay, answer then: how would the fact that someone starting now would need to wait 7 years to get a reward some people got last summer be different than him needing to wait a year or two of LS chapters to be able to get to the point veteran players are at with AP?
    Or, differently: someone worked hard for the last 7 years to get to certain AP level today. According to your idea, they should get rewarded exactly the same as someone that created a character at day one, went missing for 7 years, and came back yesterday. Just because you think that the second person should not need to work for the next 7 years, but should get rewarded immediately. How exactly do you consider it fair?

    The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key.

    It wasn't lost unintentionally. It was specifically designed that way. It was a mistake, but at that time it was very much intentional.

    Okay, great. If your objection is to my word choice, I have no problem shifting to 'mistake'. Let's address the consequences of the mistake then . . .

    Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .

    Again, you are not addressing the problem of missing LS1 at all. You are addressing the "problem" of some of the most hardworking veteran players having access to rewards you don't have access to yet. The content you speak of would still be unavailable.

    I'm addressing the consequences of the problem of missing LS1. Ignoring the fact that LS1 being lost is the cause of the problem would't affect the solution, but it would be sort of odd . . .

    Something undesirable happened in the past and it has consequences in the present. Why would you not want to address them . . ?

    I would. You on the other hand seem to be fixated on something else completely.

    Now, perhaps you can explain how the ap of a particular player affects how ap is missing from the game due to lost content, that loss being unintended and regrettable to the point that developers of the game are still focused on the error six years later.

    Again, it wasn't the loss of AP that was regrettable, but the loss of the story. And, like i already said, it wasn't really unintended either - they very much intended for the story to be transient then. They've just changed their minds later on.

    So what I understand you to be saying at this point is that you see losing the content as a mistake, and that you agree we should try to address the consequences of the mistake, but that the lost rewards are not one of those consequences. To which I again would remind you that I'm okay with your having that attitude towards other players in the game. Please try to understand that I do not share that apathy . . .

    Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .

    No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about them

    Untrue . . .

    If someone doesn't care they don't have more APs accessible, then the loss of those APs doesn't affect them.

    It does affect them, they just don't care. It's semantic at this point . . .

    • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A tiny minority.

    You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .

    Yes, you don't. But if you didn't even try to go for easily attainable APs, then you are not affected by not having access to one more source you would have ignored anyway.

    I don't understand how you can believe this. It is your position that any ap you do not have now is ap you have ignored and therefore you would not be affected if it was removed from the game? That could only be true of someone who obsessively pursues every ap at the moment of release . . .

    I mean, we're talking about less than 6k AP. Getting 6k Ap is trivial if you put just a little bit of effort - and yet a huge majority of players don't even have that much. Players that aren't willing to put an effort into getting even 6k AP out of those currently available should not concern themselves with those missing APs. After all, if those APs weren't missing, they wouldn't have obtained them anyway, because it would require way, way more effort than they've put into all the APs they've got so far.

    They would be available to them though. They would have had to go out of their way not to gather at least some of them . . .

    But would they care? I mean, if the majority of players cared about APs, the AP distribution among the player population would look completely different from what it is now.
    If LS1 ap was still available, perhaps the average AP would go up by like 50 points at best.

    Great! So you agree the problem exists, but you don't think it's worth addressing, even with a low cost solution. As I said two pages ago, I'm fine with your believing that. I just disagree . . .

    And then the content was lost.

    Yes. And your "solution" changes absolutely nothing about it - the content (LS1) would still be lost.

    But I address a consequence of that loss . . .

    So don't do that? Instead, focus on how we might best correct the consequences of the lost content. I asked you to present some ideas, and you have not done so. So, unfortunately, my idea remains the best available . . .

    And yet that "best" idea still solves nothing., as LS1 would still be lost.

    But it would address one of the consequences. Note that the post you quoted did not mention addressing the lost content, but its consequences. I accept that the content is lost . . .

    By the way, i did present an idea. Player wipe. It is as easy and cheap as yours, and it accomplishes about as much as yours. And I don't see what makes your "solution" any better.

    I apologize. I did not realize that was a serious suggestion as you yourself pointed out how much worse your idea was when you introduced it. My solution seems better bc it takes a lot less effort, removes nothing from the game, doesn't discount anyone's existing progress along the ap track and allows for what limited consequences it does have to be mitigated . . .

    It is "the best available" only because any actually working and satisfying solution would require a lot of effort on Anet's part. Your idea may be simple and easy to implement, but it simply isn't good. Just like my idea of a total player wipe.

    So how could it be improved?

    It would have to be completely scrapped for that.

    What would you replace it with . . ?

    It's low cost

    True. Unfortunately that's its only good quality.
    Hint: i don't buy things only because they are cheap. If i did that, i would end up with a ton of trash i would have no need of.

    It solves the problem. That's another good quality. You don't recognize that quality bc even though you have acknowledged the problem, you don't believe it's a problem worth solving. If you'd rather sit in a pile of trash than accept my cheap trash bag, to use your example, I can accept that as your choice, but it doesn't mean I won't keep offering the bag . . .

    , addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated.

    On the contrary, it does leave the core issue (missing LS1) completely untouched. It solves nothing, while causing additional problems. You are perfectly willing to dismantle the whole AP rewards system in order to solve an issue that affects maybe a handful of players, while leaving the real problem completely untouched.

    We can't do anything about LS1 being lost. I accept that. I do not accept that as a reason to ignore the consequences of the loss. Also, I'm assuming it was hyperbole but ofc my solution does not dismantle ap rewards. It only removes the unique rewards and leaves the repeating rewards, like any other track . . .

    I just don't see how you can "improve" on that without changing absolutely everything about this "solution".

    So give it a shot. Change something. If you disagree that it's better than a total player wipe, how is the player wipe better . . ?

    Mind you, if you were really interested in fixing the problem of lost content, the only satisfying solution would be reintroducing LS1. Instead you're talking about removing rewards from AP track, which has absolutely nothing to do with that, and still leaves that lost content lost.Which suggests, that LS1 is not what you are truly concerned about. The thing that irks you, and the "problem" you are so eager to correct seemt so only be the situation where players that have played more and/or longer will be able to reach certain rewards faster than those that played shorter/less.
    It's not the lost LS1 that you care about. It's only the rewards.

    I would love them to reintroduce LS1. But my understanding is that it is either impossible or difficult/expensive to the point that it is practically impossible. I think what confuses you is that accepting that LS1 is lost doesn't cause me to just throw up my hands, turn away and pretend there weren't problems created by that loss. As mentioned, several times, I like this idea bc it solves some of the problems created by the loss at a low cost. It is a good . . .

    Except the "problem" of missing APs is not a problem at all, because in reality it doesn't deprive anyone of anything.

    It does . . .

    At best it might delay some rewards for a small number of players.

    And after that delay, they find themselves in the same position they are now, missing just as many rewards farther along the track, until the rewards are removed . . .

    And this "low cost" you speak of is a complete destruction of a system that so far was working mostly fine, and is generally positively received by the population.

    Again, it destroys nothing . . .

    You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "

    Oh, i did look at the situation, and that's exactly why i think that your "solution" is just bad for everyone.

    But you know it's not bad for everyone . . .

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . .

    ...what? I mean, if you didn't play the game for 6 years, then it's a problem on your side, not on game's side. Perhaps you were truly unable, but perhaps you simply weren;t interested. The game really shouldn't care either way - it should primarily concern itself with the people that do play.

    I found it difficult to believe that someone so indifferent to the game that they claimed they wouldn't care whether they could log in for the next six years would bother posting on the game's forum . . .

    ...you know, i have no idea what you're even talking about here.

    And how would you address the shortcut that was closed after some players ran through, to use your analogy? There are runners that are farther behind than they would be, if the tracks designers had not been forced to close that portion of the track against their will . . .

    As it has been explained to you, designers hadn't been "forced to close that portion of the track against their will". It was a path that was supposed to be open only for a short while. It was designed that way. And so, everyone that used it, did it as they were meant to do. And now you're suggesting to punish them for it. By removing rewards they honestly worked for.

    You'll have to do more to explain this to me. Are you saying the content is not missing, or that it's missing intentionally, or that you agree it's missing due to a technical limitation, but you just don't care about how that affects other players? Bc I already let you know two pages ago that if that was your attitude, I could accept and disagree with it. You don't need to justify it . . .

    I mean, that, for example, someone that has 6k AP, has no access to rewards from reward track from AP 6500 and above. There's absolutely no difference whether he doesn't have more AP because he didn't do LS1, or because he wasn't doing WvW, playing SPvP, raids, or skipped some later LS seasons.
    At any given moment, you don't have access to some rewards not because of some "technical limitations", but because you have not enough AP for them (yet). And, in case of 99.9% of players, that is not due to some "technical limitations", but simply because the player in question simply didn't get the APs that were available for them.

    Notice, by the way, that's true to people missing ANY AP, not only those frol LS
    At this moment there's definitely an award that you would have access to if only you raided more, or played SPvP/WvW more, or...
    ...but you didn't.

    What you're ignoring here is that the ap you're describing is still available in the game. I can still pursue it.

    Yes, you can. But you didn't. Don't blame that on LS1.

    Even if LS1 had been designed as a jump start for early adopters I would agree with your point. Don't confuse missing ap due to lost content with ap that a player has available but has chosen not to pursue or even ap that anet has intentionally removed from the game . . .

    ...but LS1 AP is an AP to which access was intentionally removed from the game.

    What is your aversion to addressing that problem?

    The fact that i'm still not persuaded that the problem exists, but very certain that your proposed "solution" actually accomplishes nothing positive whatsoever (and causes some problems of its own).

    The existence of the problem rests on three basic tenets. There is ap that was once available, and is no longer. This is due to a limitation that the game's designers recognize as an error. That missing ap cannot, at present, be recovered. Which of those three tenets do you disagree with?

    Second and third.
    Game designers indeed recognize as an error their decision to make LS1 transient and non-repeatable, but that is about the story of LS1. I don't believe they said even once anything about the APs from that time - and they definitely did not say anything like that about missing APs from initial holiday events. In fact, their treatment of holidays make me believe that having the original APs available again was never an important point to them (because, unlike with LS1, they could easily have done that when they redesigned current holiday events' achievements, and yet they didn't).
    And the third tenet you base your argument on, while technically true, is still faulty. Yes, those specific APs cannot be "recovered" - but you can replace them with new ones.
    Say, something prevented a player from doing dailies, and thus they didn't earn their 2 gold for today. That gold is lost, and cannot be recovered. They are now 2 gold behind someone that was able to login today. That's not a reason however to demand that everything that costs 2 gold more than this player currently has should be removed from vendors for everyone. Remember, tomorrow there will be another day, another daily, and another option to gain 2 gold from them.

    To say 'the problem doesn't exist', you must disbelieve one of those three statements, which are all three provably true.

    I actually disbelieve one, consider another inconsequential, and consider the whole problem to be blown way out of proportions, only taking attention away from what's really important - the lack of LS1 storyline.

    What I think you're trying to say is that you just don't care about the effects of the problem, which is not at all the same thing . . .

    Yes, i don't think the ones you are concentrating on are important enough to warrant the nuclear option you're proposing.

    Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?

    I am not. It's just that you're not addressing the problem, but simply creating a new one.

    That's flattering, but I was actually not involved with any the facts presented in any of the three statements above . . .

    First, those "facts" are highly debatable, second, they are not the problem. Again, the problem is missing LS 1 story. You are not addressing that one, you are simply creating new problems in order to address something that does not need addressing.

    The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key.

    It wasn't lost unintentionally. It was specifically designed that way. It was a mistake, but at that time it was very much intentional.

    Okay, great. If your objection is to my word choice, I have no problem shifting to 'mistake'. Let's address the consequences of the mistake then . . .

    The important consequences of the mistake are that the LS1 story is missing. The things you speak of are at best a minor nuisance, and only to a limited number of people - they are not a big problem however, and certainly not to a playerbase as a whole.

    Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .

    Again, you are not addressing the problem of missing LS1 at all. You are addressing the "problem" of some of the most hardworking veteran players having access to rewards you don't have access to yet. The content you speak of would still be unavailable.

    I'm addressing the consequences of the problem of missing LS

    no because the consequences (the ones that matter) would still remain unadressed.

    So what I understand you to be saying at this point is that you see losing the content as a mistake, and that you agree we should try to address the consequences of the mistake, but that the lost rewards are not one of those consequences.

    Yes. Especially since, as it has been explained to you time and time again, the rewards are not lost. Merely delayed. And only for a very, very small number of people.

    To which I again would remind you that I'm okay with your having that attitude towards other players in the game. Please try to understand that I do not share that apathy

    It's not apathy. I'm just way more realistic about the scope of the "problem" you bring up than you are. And so i see that it is way, way smaller than you make it to be. Smaller than the problems your "solution" would cause.

    Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .

    No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about them

    Untrue . . .

    If someone doesn't care they don't have more APs accessible, then the loss of those APs doesn't affect them.

    It does affect them, they just don't care. It's semantic at this point . . .

    It may be semantic, but it is an important distinction, because it impacts how big the problem is. If a shop on the other side of town gets suddenly closed, it may be a problem, but it's not something that affects people that weren't going to buy anything in it in the first place.

    • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A tiny minority.

    You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .

    Yes, you don't. But if you didn't even try to go for easily attainable APs, then you are not affected by not having access to one more source you would have ignored anyway.

    I don't understand how you can believe this. It is your position that any ap you do not have now is ap you have ignored and therefore you would not be affected if it was removed from the game? That could only be true of someone who obsessively pursues every ap at the moment of release . . .

    No, I believe that if you are not interested in something, you will not be affected if that something you're not interested in goes missing (see my shop example above). Someone that obsessively pursues every AP available is the exact opposite of that, and the kind of person that would be affected. It's just there's only a handful of such players in this game. And frankly most of those people would probably not be glad if one of the reasons why they are obsessively pursue every AP possible (unique rewards from AP track) would get removed.
    So, basically, your "fix" does not help anyone.

    Great! So you agree the problem exists, but you don't think it's worth addressing, even with a low cost solution. As I said two pages ago, I'm fine with your believing that. I just disagree . . .

    Remember, the "low cost" you speak of is only in developer workload. What you ignore is the other cost of that solution, which would come from consequences of removing rewards from reward track. And that cost would not be low.

    And then the content was lost.

    Yes. And your "solution" changes absolutely nothing about it - the content (LS1) would still be lost.

    But I address a consequence of that loss . . .

    In a way that would not help anyone, but would create a lot of negative consequences of its own.

    So how could it be improved?

    It would have to be completely scrapped for that.

    What would you replace it with . . ?

    Any solution that would actually work. Yours does not.

    , addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated.

    On the contrary, it does leave the core issue (missing LS1) completely untouched. It solves nothing, while causing additional problems. You are perfectly willing to dismantle the whole AP rewards system in order to solve an issue that affects maybe a handful of players, while leaving the real problem completely untouched.

    We can't do anything about LS1 being lost. I accept that. I do not accept that as a reason to ignore the consequences of the loss. Also, I'm assuming it was hyperbole but ofc my solution does not dismantle ap rewards. It only removes the unique rewards and leaves the repeating rewards, like any other track . . .

    Most people do not care for the repeating rewards from that track at all (there have been a lot of threads about how people consider those trash). People grind AP not for those, but specifically for the unique ones. Without them, the whole reward track loses most of its meaning.

    Except the "problem" of missing APs is not a problem at all, because in reality it doesn't deprive anyone of anything.

    It does . . .

    How? Show me a specific reward, and a specific player that is deprived of that reward due to not being able to do LS1 for APs. And i will show you how you are mistaken about your basic assumption.

    At best it might delay some rewards for a small number of players.

    And after that delay, they find themselves in the same position they are now, missing just as many rewards farther along the track

    As every single player in the game, including those that did get most/all of LS1 APs. Remember, that every time the highest AP players get close to getting the last unique reward, Anet introduces new ones just behind their reach.
    When hellfire/radiant leg and chest pieces got introduced to AP track, noone could obtain even one of those sets, much less both. When someone obtained both, backpacks got introduced - and as far as i know noone can get both of those still.
    It is an infinite rewards track, that is its whole idea.
    So, yeah, every single player "misses" some rewards from the track. And every single player can obtain those rewards, if they only continue playing and putting effort into obtaining them.

    And this "low cost" you speak of is a complete destruction of a system that so far was working mostly fine, and is generally positively received by the population.

    Again, it destroys nothing . . .

    See above - you want to destriy the core idea behind the AP track, and the main reason why people are pursuing APs. You are trying to nuke a city to get at a fly you find personally annoying.

    You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "

    Oh, i did look at the situation, and that's exactly why i think that your "solution" is just bad for everyone.

    But you know it's not bad for everyone . . .

    Okay, i'll give you that - it's not bad for everyone, only for some. It is however not good for anyone either.
    (and before you content that, please show me a person this would help, and explain how it would help that person).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.
    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

    Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

    Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

    Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

    You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

    It doesn't matter that LWS1 was "an experiment". After the experiment concluded, they should have been thinking of ways to include it because at the end of the day no players who joined after that period of time know the full story of the game which is unacceptable in a game where story is a pretty key aspect of it.

    You can say experiment all you want, you can say it was live and you had to be there and it was in the moment.
    But that just isn't an acceptable excuse as to why that aspect of story is missing for players today.

    The unique loot for new players to earn. Gone.
    The achieves. Gone.
    The Story. Gone.

    You think some cut scene after you finish the core story is good enough?
    I can tell you it's not. I barely know anything about Scarlett after watching it.
    I know LITERALLY nothing about how I met Dragon's Watch members, their back story.
    I still don't 100% know anything about that period of time.

    It's not fun to finish the story and jump into the next only to discover you don't know the whole plot for a story experience.
    There is no excuse. Moving ahead without coming up with a solution was a bad one.

    Look at the new Kralkatorrik portals on a bunch of the maps right?
    Where do they take you?
    They take you to their own world, not part of the regular map.
    They are proving to us that you can be in instanced separate little realities with live events with a whole server of people, which could surely be used to put the LWS1 live events and fights into.
    They could put the entrances on the maps those things used to be on and even put them on a timer so people could jump into those maps periodically and once they left the area when the experience finished, they get rewarded.

    Like we have the technology to do it.
    Shouldn't a full play experience matter for new players?

    And the story instances, well you can still see old Lion's Arch in core story scenes so the updated map clearly doesn't matter for accessing the cut scenes

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    So we've discovered another word you're not using correctly. It makes it difficult to communicate . . .

    infinite
    adjective
    1.
    limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
    "the infinite mercy of God"

    Care to share with us the extent and the size of the achievement point total? Please measure/calculate it and present us the upper limit of the achievement points.

    Pls read thread . . .

    Take your suggestion and read it yourself. This thread isn't about achievement rewards, you derailed it towards that.

    You can find the OP here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60816/achievement-point-discussion/p1

    and the OP's plea to return to the topic:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1159230/#Comment_1159230

    Pls show me how to select the rewards that would have been unlocked by the ap missing from the lost content at this time. I cannot find them in my UI. An oversight on my part I am certain . . .

    Pls show me evidence that Episode 3 of the Icebrood Saga won't add any new achievement points. Also, have you completed all other achievement points that the game offers?

    Every player who does not have the lost ap is further behind on the track than they would be at the current moment.

    Everyone will get the rewards, unless you provide the evidence requested above, so your problem is with the AP number. Gotcha, I thought you said earlier that it wasn't and you don't care about it.

    Content was lost. Consequences ensued. Solutions were posed. You put your head in the sand . . .

    The only players that will be affected by the loss of AP (as a number, rewards are always available to everyone) are those that already finished all other achievements in the game. According to the leaderboards, no player has every single achievement completed yet (but are very close) so the loss of AP by the loss of content isn't affecting anyone at the present. A player cannot complain that they are missing old AP at the same time as 90% of the game's accounts have less than 2.8k AP. They have approximately 35k achievement points available to them to go get. Complaining about missing AP before first obtaining all others is meaningless.

    I was meaning to ask this sooner, do you like that Raids have unique Legendary Armor tied to them? This is a yes/no question and no need to derail the thread further with that. Because there was someone in the easy mode threads on the Raid forums who loved multiple quotes, derailing threads and proposing problems that do not exist.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    This is a disingenuous reply that demonstrates your insincerity in addressing the issue. No one who plays the game would be indifferent to being locked out of the game for six years. I am disappointed that you chose to reply, but not address the issue . . .

    ...what? I mean, if you didn't play the game for 6 years, then it's a problem on your side, not on game's side. Perhaps you were truly unable, but perhaps you simply weren;t interested. The game really shouldn't care either way - it should primarily concern itself with the people that do play.

    I found it difficult to believe that someone so indifferent to the game that they claimed they wouldn't care whether they could log in for the next six years would bother posting on the game's forum . . .

    ...you know, i have no idea what you're even talking about here.

    I asked if you would be bothered by not being able to log in to the game for six years and you said no. I find that implausible . . .

    And how would you address the shortcut that was closed after some players ran through, to use your analogy? There are runners that are farther behind than they would be, if the tracks designers had not been forced to close that portion of the track against their will . . .

    As it has been explained to you, designers hadn't been "forced to close that portion of the track against their will". It was a path that was supposed to be open only for a short while. It was designed that way. And so, everyone that used it, did it as they were meant to do. And now you're suggesting to punish them for it. By removing rewards they honestly worked for.

    And the track designers now recognize that as a mistake, yes. I'm happy to adjust to your verbage, the problem remains the same. Also no, I'm not suggesting that any unlocked rewards be removed, only rewards that haven't been unlocked yet, to compensate for the mistake . . .

    You'll have to do more to explain this to me. Are you saying the content is not missing, or that it's missing intentionally, or that you agree it's missing due to a technical limitation, but you just don't care about how that affects other players? Bc I already let you know two pages ago that if that was your attitude, I could accept and disagree with it. You don't need to justify it . . .

    I mean, that, for example, someone that has 6k AP, has no access to rewards from reward track from AP 6500 and above. There's absolutely no difference whether he doesn't have more AP because he didn't do LS1, or because he wasn't doing WvW, playing SPvP, raids, or skipped some later LS seasons.
    At any given moment, you don't have access to some rewards not because of some "technical limitations", but because you have not enough AP for them (yet). And, in case of 99.9% of players, that is not due to some "technical limitations", but simply because the player in question simply didn't get the APs that were available for them.

    Then that is where you are confused. I'm speaking of the difference between ap a player hasn't done yet, which is still available to them, and the mistakenly lost ap from LS1, which will never be available to them, that they could choose to do now otherwise. Which affects everyone who hasn't done it . . .

    Notice, by the way, that's true to people missing ANY AP, not only those frol LS
    At this moment there's definitely an award that you would have access to if only you raided more, or played SPvP/WvW more, or...
    ...but you didn't.

    What you're ignoring here is that the ap you're describing is still available in the game. I can still pursue it.

    Yes, you can. But you didn't. Don't blame that on LS1.

    I wasn't? It's "haven't", not "didn't". You were conflating ap that is still in the game (raiding, pvp, wvw) with ap that is lost from LS1. 'Didn't' only applies to the lost ap. It's apples and oranges . . .

    Even if LS1 had been designed as a jump start for early adopters I would agree with your point. Don't confuse missing ap due to lost content with ap that a player has available but has chosen not to pursue or even ap that anet has intentionally removed from the game . . .

    ...but LS1 AP is an AP to which access was intentionally removed from the game.

    I thought we had settled on mistakenly? If you're saying the intent was to give early players a jump start that would change things, as I've already mentioned. But I'd need some evidence of that intent. All the evidence we have points in the other direction . . .

    What is your aversion to addressing that problem?

    The fact that i'm still not persuaded that the problem exists, but very certain that your proposed "solution" actually accomplishes nothing positive whatsoever (and causes some problems of its own).

    The existence of the problem rests on three basic tenets. There is ap that was once available, and is no longer. This is due to a limitation that the game's designers recognize as an error. That missing ap cannot, at present, be recovered. Which of those three tenets do you disagree with?

    Second and third.
    Game designers indeed recognize as an error their decision to make LS1 transient and non-repeatable, but that is about the story of LS1. I don't believe they said even once anything about the APs from that time - and they definitely did not say anything like that about missing APs from initial holiday events. In fact, their treatment of holidays make me believe that having the original APs available again was never an important point to them (because, unlike with LS1, they could easily have done that when they redesigned current holiday events' achievements, and yet they didn't).

    This sounds interesting. Share more about this additional missing ap . . .

    And the third tenet you base your argument on, while technically true, is still faulty. Yes, those specific APs cannot be "recovered" - but you can replace them with new ones.

    'Technically true'. Lol. So what you're saying is it's true, but you don't like it, so you're going to act like it's not true :p

    Say, something prevented a player from doing dailies, and thus they didn't earn their 2 gold for today. That gold is lost, and cannot be recovered. They are now 2 gold behind someone that was able to login today. That's not a reason however to demand that everything that costs 2 gold more than this player currently has should be removed from vendors for everyone. Remember, tomorrow there will be another day, another daily, and another option to gain 2 gold from them.

    Was their inability to log in today the consequence of a design error . . ?

    To say 'the problem doesn't exist', you must disbelieve one of those three statements, which are all three provably true.

    I actually disbelieve one, consider another inconsequential, and consider the whole problem to be blown way out of proportions, only taking attention away from what's really important - the lack of LS1 storyline.

    I'm not sure how it could be blown out of proportion. I've always maintained it was a small problem with an easy solution . . .

    What I think you're trying to say is that you just don't care about the effects of the problem, which is not at all the same thing . . .

    Yes, i don't think the ones you are concentrating on are important enough to warrant the nuclear option you're proposing.

    I really do believe that you're exaggerating the consequences of the solution posed, but if you recognize the problem and feel the cure is worse than the disease I'm fine with your having an opinion I disagree with. I've only argued with you when you insisted the problem didn't exist . . .

    Or perhaps more to the point, what is your aversion to anyone else addressing it either . . ?

    I am not. It's just that you're not addressing the problem, but simply creating a new one.

    That's flattering, but I was actually not involved with any the facts presented in any of the three statements above . . .

    First, those "facts" are highly debatable, second, they are not the problem. Again, the problem is missing LS 1 story. You are not addressing that one, you are simply creating new problems in order to address something that does not need addressing.

    The problem I'm addressing is one of the consequences of losing LS1, since bringing LS1 back is beyond our hopes, as I understand it. Ofc I would prefer to have LS1 treated just like all the other living stories. It's just not possible . . .

    The fact that the lost content was lost unintentionally is the key.

    It wasn't lost unintentionally. It was specifically designed that way. It was a mistake, but at that time it was very much intentional.

    Okay, great. If your objection is to my word choice, I have no problem shifting to 'mistake'. Let's address the consequences of the mistake then . . .

    The important consequences of the mistake are that the LS1 story is missing. The things you speak of are at best a minor nuisance, and only to a limited number of people - they are not a big problem however, and certainly not to a playerbase as a whole.

    We disagree here, but that's fine. At least you've stopped pretending the problem doesn't exist . . .

    Anet would prefer for that content to still be available, as they have mentioned numerous times, most recently in the message from the content design lead of Feb 3, specifically noting that they would like to avoid that same mistake in the future . . .

    Again, you are not addressing the problem of missing LS1 at all. You are addressing the "problem" of some of the most hardworking veteran players having access to rewards you don't have access to yet. The content you speak of would still be unavailable.

    I'm addressing the consequences of the problem of missing LS

    no because the consequences (the ones that matter) would still remain unadressed.

    Only bc we can't do anything about those. It's still worth doing what we can . . .

    So what I understand you to be saying at this point is that you see losing the content as a mistake, and that you agree we should try to address the consequences of the mistake, but that the lost rewards are not one of those consequences.

    Yes. Especially since, as it has been explained to you time and time again, the rewards are not lost. Merely delayed. And only for a very, very small number of people.

    This is not true, as I have also explained time and again. I feel like I need a graph . . .

    To which I again would remind you that I'm okay with your having that attitude towards other players in the game. Please try to understand that I do not share that apathy

    It's not apathy. I'm just way more realistic about the scope of the "problem" you bring up than you are. And so i see that it is way, way smaller than you make it to be. Smaller than the problems your "solution" would cause.

    So you agree the problem exists, and we disagree as to its scope and the consequences of the proposed solution. If you look back, you'll see this is significant progress. If you had been able to adopt this perspective from the start it could have just been left at that. You could have used all this energy to develop a better solution . . .

    Why focus on someone starting now? We've already established that this affects the substantial majority of accounts . . .

    No, we haven't actually established that. Remember, that lack of those APs affect only those that do care about them

    Untrue . . .

    If someone doesn't care they don't have more APs accessible, then the loss of those APs doesn't affect them.

    It does affect them, they just don't care. It's semantic at this point . . .

    It may be semantic, but it is an important distinction, because it impacts how big the problem is. If a shop on the other side of town gets suddenly closed, it may be a problem, but it's not something that affects people that weren't going to buy anything in it in the first place.

    I think it goes more to how important it is than how large it is. It is a very large, but fairly minor problem, with a proposed solution with even smaller consequences . . .

    • and, specifically, those that are willing and capable of putting a lot of effort into obtaining those, to the level where they cannot supplement this lack with APs from other sources anymore. Those players in general are a minority in this game. A tiny minority.

    You do not need to have exhausted all sources of ap to feel the absence of the missing ap. It affects you all along the way, at every moment . . .

    Yes, you don't. But if you didn't even try to go for easily attainable APs, then you are not affected by not having access to one more source you would have ignored anyway.

    I don't understand how you can believe this. It is your position that any ap you do not have now is ap you have ignored and therefore you would not be affected if it was removed from the game? That could only be true of someone who obsessively pursues every ap at the moment of release . . .

    No, I believe that if you are not interested in something, you will not be affected if that something you're not interested in goes missing (see my shop example above). Someone that obsessively pursues every AP available is the exact opposite of that, and the kind of person that would be affected. It's just there's only a handful of such players in this game. And frankly most of those people would probably not be glad if one of the reasons why they are obsessively pursue every AP possible (unique rewards from AP track) would get removed.

    But can you not understand that the vast majority of players in the game have ap that is available, that they have not acquired yet, that they are interested in? You yourself point that out here, that only a very small portion of the player base feels otherwise . . .

    So, basically, your "fix" does not help anyone.

    It would help all those ppl. Pretty close to everyone . . .

    Great! So you agree the problem exists, but you don't think it's worth addressing, even with a low cost solution. As I said two pages ago, I'm fine with your believing that. I just disagree . . .

    Remember, the "low cost" you speak of is only in developer workload. What you ignore is the other cost of that solution, which would come from consequences of removing rewards from reward track. And that cost would not be low.

    It could be low. It depends on how it's implemented . . .

    And then the content was lost.

    Yes. And your "solution" changes absolutely nothing about it - the content (LS1) would still be lost.

    But I address a consequence of that loss . . .

    In a way that would not help anyone, but would create a lot of negative consequences of its own.

    In a way that would help almost everyone, and with consequences that could be easily mitigated . . .

    So how could it be improved?

    It would have to be completely scrapped for that.

    What would you replace it with . . ?

    Any solution that would actually work. Yours does not.

    Pick one . . .

    , addresses an issue affecting a large majority of accounts, at a cost to a small number of players, which can be mitigated.

    On the contrary, it does leave the core issue (missing LS1) completely untouched. It solves nothing, while causing additional problems. You are perfectly willing to dismantle the whole AP rewards system in order to solve an issue that affects maybe a handful of players, while leaving the real problem completely untouched.

    We can't do anything about LS1 being lost. I accept that. I do not accept that as a reason to ignore the consequences of the loss. Also, I'm assuming it was hyperbole but ofc my solution does not dismantle ap rewards. It only removes the unique rewards and leaves the repeating rewards, like any other track . . .

    Most people do not care for the repeating rewards from that track at all (there have been a lot of threads about how people consider those trash). People grind AP not for those, but specifically for the unique ones. Without them, the whole reward track loses most of its meaning.

    If that were true, I would see it as another strong reason to remove the unique rewards . . .

    Except the "problem" of missing APs is not a problem at all, because in reality it doesn't deprive anyone of anything.

    It does . . .

    How? Show me a specific reward, and a specific player that is deprived of that reward due to not being able to do LS1 for APs. And i will show you how you are mistaken about your basic assumption.

    I don't know the specific numbers for all this, but I'll try to give you the same example I gave the other guy. I'll use 6k as the missing ap number bc that's what the other guy is using, I have no idea how accurate it is. But it's just an example, it works with any number really. Let's say someone to whom LS1 is lost is at 30k and just unlocked their first chest piece (I checked these rewards on the wiki, I'm assuming they are correct but I do not know for a fact, it's okay, it's just an example, I'm sure they're close enough). If they had access to LS1, they would have some additional ap, up to another 6k. That's the second chest piece, the second leg piece, four weapon skins and a title, again according to the wiki. The coutnerargument that has been posed is that once another 6k of rewards is released into the game they will get those rewards anyway, which is true. But at that point the same player will be missing both backguards, four more skins and another title. It goes on this way until the rewards are removed . . .

    At best it might delay some rewards for a small number of players.

    And after that delay, they find themselves in the same position they are now, missing just as many rewards farther along the track

    As every single player in the game, including those that did get most/all of LS1 APs. Remember, that every time the highest AP players get close to getting the last unique reward, Anet introduces new ones just behind their reach.
    When hellfire/radiant leg and chest pieces got introduced to AP track, noone could obtain even one of those sets, much less both. When someone obtained both, backpacks got introduced - and as far as i know noone can get both of those still.
    It is an infinite rewards track, that is its whole idea.
    So, yeah, every single player "misses" some rewards from the track. And every single player can obtain those rewards, if they only continue playing and putting effort into obtaining them.

    But most players are missing ap from the mistakenly lost content, which means there are awards they should have access to, but don't . . .

    And this "low cost" you speak of is a complete destruction of a system that so far was working mostly fine, and is generally positively received by the population.

    Again, it destroys nothing . . .

    See above - you want to destriy the core idea behind the AP track, and the main reason why people are pursuing APs. You are trying to nuke a city to get at a fly you find personally annoying.

    That is wild exaggeration. The effects could be very small, if handled properly . . .

    You have to look at a situation and try to figure out what the best solution is overall. You can't just look at your own situation and say "this is best for me, therefore it's the best thing . . "

    Oh, i did look at the situation, and that's exactly why i think that your "solution" is just bad for everyone.

    But you know it's not bad for everyone . . .

    Okay, i'll give you that - it's not bad for everyone, only for some. It is however not good for anyone either.
    (and before you content that, please show me a person this would help, and explain how it would help that person).

    It would help everyone that was missing the ap, like the player in the example above . . .

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    So we've discovered another word you're not using correctly. It makes it difficult to communicate . . .

    infinite
    adjective
    1.
    limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
    "the infinite mercy of God"

    Care to share with us the extent and the size of the achievement point total? Please measure/calculate it and present us the upper limit of the achievement points.

    Oh I am so not going to spend my time doing that. But the data is there if you are so inclined. It's somewhere in the low forties atm, from what I understand . . .

    Pls read thread . . .

    Take your suggestion and read it yourself. This thread isn't about achievement rewards, you derailed it towards that.

    You can find the OP here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60816/achievement-point-discussion/p1

    and the OP's plea to return to the topic:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1159230/#Comment_1159230

    It's okay, I wouldn't want to read it either if I was you :)

    Pls show me how to select the rewards that would have been unlocked by the ap missing from the lost content at this time. I cannot find them in my UI. An oversight on my part I am certain . . .

    Pls show me evidence that Episode 3 of the Icebrood Saga won't add any new achievement points. Also, have you completed all other achievement points that the game offers?

    Has ep3 been released? If not, it is not in the game, it is a planned, future release. See earlier examples to understand how gathering new cheeves does not affect the missing total . . .

    Every player who does not have the lost ap is further behind on the track than they would be at the current moment.

    Everyone will get the rewards, unless you provide the evidence requested above, so your problem is with the AP number. Gotcha, I thought you said earlier that it wasn't and you don't care about it.

    Evidence provided, pleased to correct, look forward to your reply. Okay, I was just being polite on that last bit I admit . . .

    Content was lost. Consequences ensued. Solutions were posed. You put your head in the sand . . .

    The only players that will be affected by the loss of AP (as a number, rewards are always available to everyone) are those that already finished all other achievements in the game. According to the leaderboards, no player has every single achievement completed yet (but are very close) so the loss of AP by the loss of content isn't affecting anyone at the present. A player cannot complain that they are missing old AP at the same time as 90% of the game's accounts have less than 2.8k AP. They have approximately 35k achievement points available to them to go get. Complaining about missing AP before first obtaining all others is meaningless.

    Attempting to distract from the rewards the missing ap is depriving players of atm by talking about the total number of ap is not helpful . . .

    I was meaning to ask this sooner, do you like that Raids have unique Legendary Armor tied to them? This is a yes/no question and no need to derail the thread further with that. Because there was someone in the easy mode threads on the Raid forums who loved multiple quotes, derailing threads and proposing problems that do not exist.

    Was it you . . ?

    If raids were lost to us due to a design mistake and someone proposed a way to reintroduce the unique rewards I would probably be in favor of it. It's not really an apples to apples comparison though, since the armor is a reward for the content, it doesn't affect anything outside of itself. I'd be more concerned about all the players affected by the opportunity to acquire that raid ap, since presumably the unique rewards on the ap track would still be in place at that point . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Oh I am so not going to spend my time doing that. But the data is there if you are so inclined. It's somewhere in the low forties atm, from what I understand . . .

    You mean it will be in the low forties when Episode 3 is released? Or in 6 years from now? Please show us your data to support that theory.

    It's okay, I wouldn't want to read it either if I was you :)

    So you admit you don't care about the thread topic being discussed. Good to know.

    Has ep3 been released? If not, it is not in the game, it is a planned, future release. See earlier examples to understand how gathering new cheeves does not affect the missing total . . .

    You didn't really answer the question. How do you know Episode 3 won't have any achievements? There is loads of AP out there for you to earn those rewards regardless of those missing ones. Once you have all of those achievements you can post back.

    Evidence provided, pleased to correct, look forward to your reply. Okay, I was just being polite on that last bit I admit . . .

    I see no evidence there. Post a link next time that clearly shows the developer intention of not providing achievements in Episode 3, because I don't see any.

    Attempting to distract from the rewards the missing ap is depriving players of atm by talking about the total number of ap is not helpful . . .

    The missing AP isn't depriving any players from rewards. You assume that the AP "missing" will have been finished by the players. That's false, given the low average AP total of the players of this game. Meaning even if those AP were still available, players wouldn't have them unlocked in the first place. Derailing the thread isn't helpful either.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    Just stop feeding the troll.

    Even topic creator has asked this topic return to the original intent:

    • reintroduce AP missed from season 1
    • never intended to argue removal of unique AP rewards, that's a different posters personal goal (or just his personal pet peeve)

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    How did this become an argument about removing achievement rewards?

    Achievement Points are cool, they allow you to get a point of recognition for doing something beyond what the regular goal is. EG. Killing a boss without getting hit by certain abilities, etc.
    You are rewarded for doing more than the bare minimum.
    Which is why I cannot agree that it should somehow be linked to loyalty. That's what character birthday's are for.

    Achievements are about rewarding you for going out of your way to do something extra.

    Some of the misconceptions present were corrected:

    • total AP missed is very low, both back when the topic was created in 2018, even more so now
    • the reason for the huge amount of daily AP gained and where that comes from
    • the fact that rate at which new AP possibilities are introduced is of far greater concern than some missed AP
    • the fact that a vast majority of players are not affected in a way for which they would actively care about this issue (again, new AP possibilities are of far greater concern here)

    The main benefit of making the Season 1 story available is for story continuity, which would be of far more significant impact to many players, especially those who missed season 1.

    There is no need to further derail this topic with assumptions about AP reward removal or talk about reward tracks or change to daily AP rewards or other such nonsense. That was never part of the original discussion, nor part of what topic creator intended (or was argued over the initial pages of this thread).

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.
    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

    Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

    Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

    Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

    You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

    It doesn't matter that LWS1 was "an experiment". After the experiment concluded, they should have been thinking of ways to include it

    Oh, I'm sure they did think about it, and more than once (or twice or a dozend times). What I'm saying is not that they shouldn't care about bringing back season 1. I'm sure they'd love to do that.

    What I'm saying is that there isn't anything to bring back. It no longer exists. I'm sure the developers are just as unhappy about how that turned out as you and I. They are doing their best to salvage as much as they can (see most if not all of the unique season 1 rewards returned to the game by now and available through new ways, or the season 1 dungeons converted to fractals). They just can't conjure up content that doesn't exist (and never existed in any persistant form).

    There may be many people that missed season 1 and would love to play through the story (I missed part of it myself due to busy phases in real life, and would love to go back and replay others), but realistically story, especially old story you've been through (or at least through parts of it) before, is not what keeps most players playing a game like this. Personally I love to replay this game's stories time and time again, but I acknowledge that most people I know are bored after a run or two and just want to get it over with. Digging up resources to recreate such an extensive project as season 1 (and pretty much recreate it from scratch) just isn't feasible from a business point of view.

  • @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.
    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

    Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

    Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

    Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

    You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

    It doesn't matter that LWS1 was "an experiment". After the experiment concluded, they should have been thinking of ways to include it

    Oh, I'm sure they did think about it, and more than once (or twice or a dozend times). What I'm saying is not that they shouldn't care about bringing back season 1. I'm sure they'd love to do that.

    What I'm saying is that there isn't anything to bring back. It no longer exists. I'm sure the developers are just as unhappy about how that turned out as you and I. They are doing their best to salvage as much as they can (see most if not all of the unique season 1 rewards returned to the game by now and available through new ways, or the season 1 dungeons converted to fractals). They just can't conjure up content that doesn't exist (and never existed in any persistant form).

    There may be many people that missed season 1 and would love to play through the story (I missed part of it myself due to busy phases in real life, and would love to go back and replay others), but realistically story, especially old story you've been through (or at least through parts of it) before, is not what keeps most players playing a game like this. Personally I love to replay this game's stories time and time again, but I acknowledge that most people I know are bored after a run or two and just want to get it over with. Digging up resources to recreate such an extensive project as season 1 (and pretty much recreate it from scratch) just isn't feasible from a business point of view.

    Games never just get rid of the old content that they remove.
    How else do we have festivals returning that are up to date, etc?
    How else do we get these old games returning and remastered games?

    They would still have all of the content there.
    You don't just get rid of that sort of stuff as creators.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wow this topic has turned into quote heaven, or hell, depends on how you see it =)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    You don't just get rid of that sort of stuff as creators.

    I agree with your point that Season 1 needs to come back, but I'm gonna address this here. They didn't get rid of their content, they overwrote it. So a team created an event in Wayfarer Foothills, then another team came along and wrote new code on top of the old one, adding new events there. Un-tangling this code to present Season 1 as it was is a very difficult process, especially considering that many mechanics used in that age no longer exist. I'm positive the art assets and the sound files weren't deleted, as we see assets from Season 1 in Fractals for example, it's the code that's the problem.

    And this "overwrite" issue was confirmed by the developers, meaning the code from individual Season 1 episodes doesn't exist anymore.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    They would still have all of the content there.
    You don't just get rid of that sort of stuff as creators.

    There never was that kind of content to begin with. Most of season one consisted of open world events that make NO sense at all when ripped out of their timeline.

    ANet is already reusing as many assest from season 1 as they can (skins, dungeons), but most of what transportet the story back then simply DOES NOT EXIST. There is no story journal, there is no cohesive story. There simply is a collection of events and npc dialogue that MAKE NO SENSE alongside content sitting in the same map space but belonging to a different point in the season timeline.

    In season 1 Tyria really was a living, breathing, and everchanging world, but the price for that was not working in the constraints of persistant storytelling that allows players to experience different parts of the story alongside each other. Those assets you claim they didn't get rid of never existed in the first place. Most of the persistant assets already have been reintroduced into the game, but the storytelling back then was live in a way that is simply impossible to preserve.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.
    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

    Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

    Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

    Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

    You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

    That is very well described, thank you. Now, given that we all agree that the experiment failed, and that repairing the failure is cost-prohibitive, why would you not want to mitigate the damage of the failure . . ?

    I would if I had a good idea how to do so, but I don't agree with your idea of how to do it. That's got too many drawbacks in my view, most if not all already mentioned several times by other posters in this thread.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Oh I am so not going to spend my time doing that. But the data is there if you are so inclined. It's somewhere in the low forties atm, from what I understand . . .

    You mean it will be in the low forties when Episode 3 is released? Or in 6 years from now? Please show us your data to support that theory.

    'atm' was 'at the moment', so again, as I've been doing since the beginning, I'm referring to the current state of the game, which does not include ep 3. Ofc it doesn't matter, but I think it would be easier for you to understand the problem if you focused on that first, then you could better understand how the problem can't be resolved by the introduction of additional cheeves unless the unique rewards are removed . . .

    It's okay, I wouldn't want to read it either if I was you :)

    So you admit you don't care about the thread topic being discussed. Good to know.

    Has ep3 been released? If not, it is not in the game, it is a planned, future release. See earlier examples to understand how gathering new cheeves does not affect the missing total . . .

    You didn't really answer the question. How do you know Episode 3 won't have any achievements? There is loads of AP out there for you to earn those rewards regardless of those missing ones. Once you have all of those achievements you can post back.

    I have every confidence that ep 3 will be release and will have cheeves. I'm equally confident that will do nothing to address the problem . . .

    Evidence provided, pleased to correct, look forward to your reply. Okay, I was just being polite on that last bit I admit . . .

    I see no evidence there. Post a link next time that clearly shows the developer intention of not providing achievements in Episode 3, because I don't see any.

    As I am speaking of the present, I need no proof about the future . . .

    Attempting to distract from the rewards the missing ap is depriving players of atm by talking about the total number of ap is not helpful . . .

    The missing AP isn't depriving any players from rewards. You assume that the AP "missing" will have been finished by the players. That's false, given the low average AP total of the players of this game. Meaning even if those AP were still available, players wouldn't have them unlocked in the first place. Derailing the thread isn't helpful either.

    They would have access to them to do at their leisure, just like all the other cheeves in the game they haven't done yet . . .

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Just stop feeding the troll.

    I can't help myself. He might learn something . . .

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    LWS1 SHOULD NEVER HAVE MISSING.
    It is a missing player experience and the fact that it is gone is truly disgraceful because now there is only a small amount of the current GW2 population who even know and fully understand the story up to date and have the full player experience. That isn't fair.

    Show me another game WITH A GENUINE STORY FOCUS that takes away a huge section of that story that the rest of the stories after it are still following that chain of events. Yet we expect players to be okay and content with a story focus game taking away the story.

    This is the key to your problem: you assume Living Story Season 1 was persistent content that was taken away. You are wrong.

    Living Story Season 1 was an experiment. ArenaNet tried to set up an MMO with a constant stream of time-limited, event-like content. Content that always was created on the premise of being available only for a couple of weeks, before a new chunk of content took its place. None of it was ever created within the constraints of being available indefinitely and being able to function alongside other content released at a different point in time. Some of the content still works as persistent content, but a lot of it simply doesn't work.

    Looking back today we can say that the experiment failed. The personal playtime needed to keep up with the time-limited releases is just too much for most people. Unfortunately there's such a thing as real life that often takes precendence over a mere game ;) . Still, the content back then was never created to live indefinitely, then "taken away" for no good reason. It was created to work for a very specific, very limited reallife time period, often no more than two weeks. There was no story journal, no story instances that you can string one after another. A large part of it were events in open world pve (and sometimes even wvw) that just don't work mixed up with other events from earlier or later releases happening on the same maps.

    Imagine Wayfarer Foothills, with refugees dropping in from the north, nobody knows where they come from or what drove them away. At the same time (really weeks later, when the extend of the refugee situation has started to become clearer) hidden entrances to the molten facility dungeon pop up all across the map. Suddenly (really a year or so after the first refugees came) an aetherblade invasion hits the map, wreaking havoc all over the place. All of those are totally different points in the timeline of season 1. All of these transported parts of the story via open world, time-limited events (in the case of the molten facility even including open world access to a time-limited dungeon that has since been converted to a couple of fractals). All of these are totally unintelligible if you just drop them into today's maps alongside each other.

    You seem to expect ongoing storytelling the way we have known it from season 2 onward via the story journal. That is not what season 1 was. There were a couple of (mostly tiny) story instances, but most of season 1 really was storytelling via timelimited open world events. There's just no way outside of rebuilding the whole thing from scratch to make season 1 available today. You can claim that taking it away is not fair, but there never was a story to take away to begin with. There was an experiment of storytelling via non-persistent, time-limited content. It failed, but that doesn't change the fact that if was non-persistent, and no matter how often you or I or the devs or anybody else wishes the story were available to be played today, there is no content that was ever built in a way that would've made this possible.

    That is very well described, thank you. Now, given that we all agree that the experiment failed, and that repairing the failure is cost-prohibitive, why would you not want to mitigate the damage of the failure . . ?

    I would if I had a good idea how to do so, but I don't agree with your idea of how to do it. That's got too many drawbacks in my view, most if not all already mentioned several times by other posters in this thread.

    The only drawback I've seen mentioned is that it would negatively impact the players who do have the ap that was lost to the design error, which I too see as a problem, but one easily remedied by offering the rewards through other means. I'd love to support another solution but the only other one I've seen posed is that we do nothing, which impacts all of the players who do not have the lost ap. As I see the second group as much larger -- and therefore more significant -- than the first group, I lean towards the solution that addresses the harm to the second group while mitigating the damage to the first as much as possible . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    'atm' was 'at the moment'

    That's not how achievement points work. So I'll ask again, what's the upper limit of achievement points?

    I'll re-post the meaning of infinite:

    limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

    Can you measure/calculate the upper limit of the achievement point total? Is there a limit to the achievement point total? Do share it. Otherwise by the definition of the word, it's infinite.

    I have every confidence that ep 3 will be release and will have cheeves.

    Then there is no problem here. The achievement point influx won't stop, therefore all achievement rewards are -still- available to all players.

    As I am speaking of the present, I need no proof about the future . . .

    You do. so where is it? Present is irrelevant when discussing achievement rewards.

    They would have access to them to do at their leisure, just like all the other cheeves in the game they haven't done yet . . .

    And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point. And since we've established that episode 3 will provide achievements, you said it yourself, there is no problem with achievement rewards, therefore no need to remove the unique rewards from them.

  • Fleabite.7528Fleabite.7528 Member ✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    I began playing in late July 2014 - so 4 months after LW1 had finished - and have been an avid player since. I currently have a reasonable 32,600 AP - with 4,100 still achievable ingame according to GW2Efficiency.

    Assuming that the highest current player (at 41,853) has all or almost all achievements, that puts the actual LS1/ 'other' deficit at around 5,000 AP. It's really not a small amount - and despite my devotion to the game, I have no way of capturing this in my own time. Ever. Despite almost six years of play.

    One option could be for Arenanet to calculate the 'lost' AP of each player - and re-open daily achievements for each until that gap is filled . In my case it would take 71 weeks. Otherwise, that 5,000 AP gap is permanent for me and all other post LS1 players.

    This could also help re-engage many veterans - particularly those who only did parts of LS1 - or joined the game afterwards.

    [Edited to correct the length of time I've played]

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fleabite.7528 said:
    I began playing in late June 2015 - so 15 months after LW1 had finished - and have been an avid player since. I currently have a reasonable 32,600 AP - with 4,100 still achievable ingame according to GW2Efficiency.

    Assuming that the highest current player (at 41,853) has all or almost all achievements, that puts the actual LS1/ 'other' deficit at around 5,000 AP. It's really not a small amount - and despite my devotion to the game, I have no way of capturing this in my own time. Ever. Despite almost five years of play.

    One option could be for Arenanet to calculate the 'lost' AP of each player - and re-open daily achievements for each until that gap is filled . In my case it would take 71 weeks. Otherwise, that 5,000 AP gap is permanent for me and all other post LS1 players.

    This could also help re-engage many veterans - particularly those who only did parts of LS1 - or joined the game afterwards.

    The total missing/unavailable AP is about 5837. Extending the daily/monthly cap up to that amount is a very good idea, I think I made a post about that same idea some years ago. The "issue" with that is acceptance that Season 1 won't be coming back, ever. At the very least they could start by adding achievements that no longer exist but aren't part of Season 1, like the old "hint completion" achievement (yes something silly like that used to exist).

    But this: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97535/anet-please-unhide-nimble-onslaught-achievement is kind of their answer. Not only are they not adding "catch up" AP, but they even increase the number of unavailable ones. There are also the PVP title achievements that are no longer obtainable, and some others, showing clearly that the developers simply don't care. And to be fair given how 90% of the accounts have below 3k AP, the number of players affected, those close to reaching the cap in the first place, is very low. And the company is all about going with the "majority" these last months

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    to be fair given how 90% of the accounts have below 3k AP, the number of players affected, those close to reaching the cap in the first place, is very low. And the company is all about going with the "majority" these last months<

    We do know however that the 15k AP daily cap has a big negative impact on veteran players [see the endless threads here] with a hard dropoff in incentivisation. Keeping long term players engaged should be a big focus for ArenaNet.

    If all 'lost' APs are potentially available to all players via a personal daily cap - even those at the top of the leader board - then AP hunting becomes about completion for the whole playerbase, rather than those in from the beginning and lucky/ committed enough to have logged on for every (now lost) achievement.

    It may still take me years to get my available ingame 4,000 AP. And I wouldn't get the 'missing' 5,000 AP for around 18 months of new dailies if they implemented that fix - so it's still down to me to commit and play.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fleabite.7528 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    to be fair given how 90% of the accounts have below 3k AP, the number of players affected, those close to reaching the cap in the first place, is very low. And the company is all about going with the "majority" these last months<

    We do know however that the 15k AP daily cap has a big negative impact on veteran players [see the endless threads here] with a hard dropoff in incentivisation. Keeping long term players engaged should be a big focus for ArenaNet.

    If all 'lost' APs are potentially available to all players via a personal daily cap - even those at the top of the leader board - then AP hunting becomes about completion for the whole playerbase, rather than those in from the beginning and lucky/ committed enough to have logged on for every (now lost) achievement.

    It may still take me years to get my available ingame 4,000 AP. And I wouldn't get the 'missing' 5,000 AP for around 18 months of new dailies if they implemented that fix - so it's still down to me to commit and play.

    Isn't adding 200+ AP every episode not enough to give veteran players incentive? I'm not sure how the removal of the daily cap (as it's proposed in those same threads) would give more incentive to veteran players than entirely new achievements through the episodes. And they do keep long term players engaged through the use of new AP on all episodes (some of them requiring a great amount of repetition too). That "big negative impact" of the daily cap is a joke if you ask me, and it is just some players that "pretend" to care about the achievements but in reality all they want is access to the achievement rewards without doing the achievements, just spamming the same dailies over and over. Others want the complete removal of the achievement rewards for the same reason, being too lazy, and find all the useless justification they can imagine.

    Went on a rant there, but the idea of "losing incentive" when reaching the daily cap is just non-sense. As I said I'm not against increasing the daily cap, per player, based on the achievements they miss, but that has its own issues. Look how only a few days ago they made an achievement unavailable, what would happen in that case? Increase the daily cap every time some new achievement becomes unavailable? At the very least, the first step would be to stop making unavailable achievements.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    'atm' was 'at the moment'

    That's not how achievement points work. So I'll ask again, what's the upper limit of achievement points?

    It is in fact. As mentioned, I think the upper limit is somewhere in the low forties atm. I believe that's assuming players have access to all ap, including the lost ap. Players without access to that would have a lower total, which is the point. I don't know the exact number bc it is not important to me, nor it is important to my point. But it is discoverable if you are so inclined . . .

    I'll re-post the meaning of infinite:

    limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

    Can you measure/calculate the upper limit of the achievement point total? Is there a limit to the achievement point total? Do share it. Otherwise by the definition of the word, it's infinite.

    I can, yes. And perhaps more to the point, you can also. It is of no interest to me, so I choose not to. It disproves your argument, so you choose not to. So it's probably in your best interest to stop bringing it up, but it costs me nothing if you wish to continue . . .

    I have every confidence that ep 3 will be release and will have cheeves.

    Then there is no problem here. The achievement point influx won't stop, therefore all achievement rewards are -still- available to all players.

    As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

    As I am speaking of the present, I need no proof about the future . . .

    You do. so where is it? Present is irrelevant when discussing achievement rewards.

    I don't. My position holds true in the future until the rewards are removed from the track, but it also holds true in the present, which is the only time it matters really, as tomorrow is promised to no one . . .

    They would have access to them to do at their leisure, just like all the other cheeves in the game they haven't done yet . . .

    And? That doesn't mean they'd finish them so it's besides the point.

    The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

    And since we've established that episode 3 will provide achievements, you said it yourself, there is no problem with achievement rewards, therefore no need to remove the unique rewards from them.

    If only saying it could make it so :(

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I can, yes. And perhaps more to the point, you can also.

    Since you can calculate the achievement point limit, I'm waiting for you to tell us what will the maximum number of AP will be in 2025. Or 2030. Or tell us the specific date and time when the game will die, and the achievement point total it will have at that point.

    As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes.

    As long as AP are added to the game, without removing rewards, all is fine since everyone will earn all the unique rewards.

    I don't.

    You do so don't dodge the question, where is your proof?

    The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

    Only assuming that player would've finished those "missing AP", which is a proven fact that very few players would. So there is no actual point there.

    If only saying it could make it so :(

    Saying that they need to remove the unique rewards doesn't mean they should, or that there is a valid reason to. You haven't provided any valid reason why they should remove the unique rewards yet. Perhaps you should re-think your argumentation and give one.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I can, yes. And perhaps more to the point, you can also.

    Since you can calculate the achievement point limit, I'm waiting for you to tell us what will the maximum number of AP will be in 2025. Or 2030. Or tell us the specific date and time when the game will die, and the achievement point total it will have at that point.

    When 2025 and 2030 are the present, we will know, just as we know the present answer now, in 2020 . . .

    As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes.

    As long as AP are added to the game, without removing rewards, all is fine since everyone will earn all the unique rewards.

    Without removing the unique rewards, the gap will never be covered, unless anet introduces ap that only ppl missing ap can get, which I think is a worse idea since it focuses on the ap rather than the rewards . . .

    I don't.

    You do so don't dodge the question, where is your proof?

    I don't. I'm discussing a present solution to a present problem. The only way the future enters into it is if we'd rather wait to solve the problem, which I wouldn't . . .

    The lost access is the entire point, actually :p

    Only assuming that player would've finished those "missing AP", which is a proven fact that very few players would. So there is no actual point there.

    No, it's the access. A player who has access can finish at their leisure, a player without access can never finish . . .

    If only saying it could make it so :(

    Saying that they need to remove the unique rewards doesn't mean they should, or that there is a valid reason to. You haven't provided any valid reason why they should remove the unique rewards yet. Perhaps you should re-think your argumentation and give one.

    I have. I've also pointed out that though my solution is the best currently available it almost certainly isn't the best one anyone can come up with. Hopefully someone can come up with a better one, but it certainly won't be someone who invests so much of their energy into pretending the problem doesn't exist . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    When 2025 and 2030 are the present, we will know, just as we know the present answer now, in 2020 . . .

    I expect a number since you said you can calculate it. If you need to wait until 2025 or 2030 then it means you don't know the limit of achievement points. As they don't really have one. How do you call that which has no limit?

    Without removing the unique rewards, the gap will never be covered

    The gap won't be covered, but the unique rewards will be acquired. No need to actually close that gap if you only want the rewards. Now they could add different ways, like the one proposed to increase the daily cap equal to the missing AP, to cover that gap, if that number is important.

    I don't.

    You do because it's a future problem and not one that exists today. So stop dodging/trolling and give your proof already.

    No, it's the access. A player who has access can finish at their leisure, a player without access can never finish . . .

    That's still assuming they'd finish it in the first place if they had access, which, as a fact, is not really true. Access is rather irrelevant here.

    I have.

    You haven't so far given a valid reason.

  • As soon as the rewards are removed from the track and enough ap is created to cover the gap, yes. But that is likely years away, if ever. I prefer a more active solution . . .

    I thought 'removing the rewards' was the solution offered. What is this 'more active solution'?