Decreased quality of pugs

So i've been pugging recently quite a lot since we lost few members in our full clear static group. And what i've found in pug scared me. Before last changes to chrono, pugging bosses was possible, finding good group was hard but you could find it after few tries. But these days, even the easiest of all encounters is wipefest with any group i join. Have pugs really became so bad or worse, did people that actually know how to raid left after last patch?

Talking about both raids and fractals.

My brother and I were just discussing this last night. Not sure if it's the new Instabilities, or if everyone is tied up doing the LW Episode.

Snowblind was a nightmare... Nightmare was a really big nightmare. Can't even remember what the last one was. We didn't want to be "those people" and kick them, but 2 members of the party were dead/downed most fights, and one which didn't use any pots or food when I asked if they were going to.

Hopefully this is just a phase. PUGs seem much worse lately.

There are many things coming together:

1. Most competent groups run CMs + T4s + Recs and don't come in contact with other usual T4 or Rec groups.
2. A lot of players are burned out after getting Fractal God and/or were running fractals for years. I'm going in from time to time but not on a regular basis any longer.
3. Patch with instabilties. Even before the latest update T4 pugs had a big decrease in quality over time but now it's even worse. Not that the instabilities are hard but things like Slippery Slope are driving the fun out of the game play. The first time it was funny but afterwards I was annoyed as hell (Fractal God with 500+ Essences, all raid CMs etc.). So, I almost like all of them but Slippery Slope, problem is there are lots of people not liking some more.
4. Changes to chrono
5. For me personally: Entitled scourge/whateverest players with decent to bad dps prolonging runs and causing wipes because they don't do damage and don't know useful skills of their classes.

@"Sweal.4659" said:So i've been pugging recently quite a lot since we lost few members in our full clear static group. And what i've found in pug scared me. Before last changes to chrono, pugging bosses was possible, finding good group was hard but you could find it after few tries. But these days, even the easiest of all encounters is wipefest with any group i join. Have pugs really became so bad or worse, did people that actually know how to raid left after last patch?

Talking about both raids and fractals.

Fractals: my static hasnt had a fixed fifth for months now and I cant really say its decreased. Pugs were always hit and miss, and in fractals its just super obvious.

Raids: you'll see an immediate "skill increase" if you add a healfb or healscourge instead of a second druid. Not because people get better, but better boons and aegis enable dps players to be lazy and treat every boss as a dps golem. Sad truth is that most players that think of themselves as "good dps" were in reality just carried by chaos chronos. Chrono "carry" capabilities are back to old domi-insp chrono from about 1-2 years ago, with considerably less cc. On chaos chrono it was really difficult NOT to block/stabi stuff and give all boons, you had to essentially go afk to fail at chrono. Now you have to again time your stuff properly, be active, place your wells correctly etc.What Im saying: chaos chrono was a build carrying bad players, even the chrono himself. For pugs thats quite a reality check. Best example for this is actually Qadim boss phase ;) No more perma stability means you have to watch your positioning now and dodge/hop the shockwave. Most lfg squads I join for qadim fail at that.

You have new instabilities that people need to get used to, most veterans do CM/static runs and the meta now is in flux as the typical chrono+druid is much more difficult to play and the FB+Ren+slb comp is more difficult to find. Add this the fact that pugs especially in fractals are really slow in adapting. Just too many changes too fast for pugs to adapt on.

Same can be said for raids but since the content needs more skill and more organization is not as pronounced. Not that much that you can do...Its a natural evolution. It always gets better with time. As long as Anet does keeps things generally stable on the support playstyle for the immediate future.

Pugs have not updated their comps yet, and I still see a lot of Chrono + Druid (*2 for Raids), which makes it unsurprising that they are struggling.

@"Sweal.4659" said:did people that actually know how to raid left after last patch?Talking about both raids and fractals.

Patch don't bring something special, that can disturb to complete content. Also any patch in last 2 year don't "break all" for me

@Vinceman.4572 said:There are many things coming together:

1. Most competent groups run CMs + T4s + Recs and don't come in contact with other usual T4 or Rec groups.also for forget mention that they do this on night after reset, some of them do that without heal, only chrono in ministrel. Not everyone ready for that 'trip'

2. A lot of players are burned out after getting Fractal God and/or were running fractals for years. I'm going in from time to time but not on a regular basis any longer.fg stay, but most of fg complete content only with others fg

3. Patch with instabilties. Even before the latest update T4 pugs had a big decrease in quality over time but now it's even worse. Not that the instabilities are hard but things like Slippery Slope are driving the fun out of the game play. The first time it was funny but afterwards I was annoyed as hell (Fractal God with 500+ Essences, all raid CMs etc.). So, I almost like all of them but Slippery Slope, problem is there are lots of people not liking some more.absoliutly agree, sliper slope have negative value in this part

4. Changes to chronoI play as chrno, and don't see any BIG changes. If someone just start play and don't have gear at all - yes, now have wider choose rate, but if not - relax and play. Main thing after soi nerf - have 100% boon duration more focus use well's, if not have focus on minic+soi.

5. For me personally: Entitled scourge/whateverest players with decent to bad dps prolonging runs and causing wipes because they don't do damage and don't know useful skills of their classes.as for me 3 scourge + besr bs + ministrel chrno still valid setup for cms+t4

@lare.5129 said:also for forget mention that they do this on night after reset, some of them do that without heal, only chrono in ministrel. Not everyone ready for that 'trip'

Irrelevant as it has been like this before. In the past you met the same skilled people either if it was at night after reset or throughout the day. The requirement for good or very good runs was and still is the high amount of kp (atm 200+ essences).

fg stay, but most of fg complete content only with others fg

Nope, I didn't stay and so do others. I'm making excellent money with the attunement but the investment often is too much to have fun running fractals.

I play as chrno, and don't see any BIG changes. If someone just start play and don't have gear at all - yes, now have wider choose rate, but if not - relax and play. Main thing after soi nerf - have 100% boon duration more focus use well's, if not have focus on minic+soi.

Doesn't matter + you must have missed lots of threads on reddit (and some here in this forum as well) of very skilled chronomancer that stopped playing after the changes because the class doesn't feel good to play. They don't want their op-build back but a solid and interesting way to play their class properly. If you're okay with the actual chrono that's your cup of tea. I rather trust skilled chronos and their point of view about the class.

as for me 3 scourge + besr bs + ministrel chrno still valid setup for cms+t4

You haven't understood. I'm not talking about competent scourge players. Additionally your comp isn't present in EU lfgs at all. Maybe 1 out of 100 group are running this way.

@lare.5129 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:

5. For me personally: Entitled scourge/whateverest players with decent to bad dps prolonging runs and causing wipes because they don't do damage
   and
   don't know useful skills of their classes.as for me 3 scourge + besr bs + ministrel chrno still valid setup for cms+t4

That composition is on the same level as running double healer on CM100.

Does it work? Yes.Is it efficient or fast? No.Do many PUG groups run it? No.Will it get the job done because double healer simply breaks any content designed for no healer without a time limit? Obviously.

3 scrouge + minstrel chrono+ x is nothing other than the old 4 necro+druid comp. You simply out sustain all content and use epi share for cleave (which remains the highest damage skill in game if it copies maximum condies). It's viable as far as strategy to get content done but not much else. It certainly is not a proper representation of how good or bad chrono is. It's even less a representation of skill, just that people figure out how to break content. Face-tanking all mechanics and surviving is nothing special.

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@lare.5129 said:The requirement for good or very good runs was and still is the high amount of kp (atm 200+ essences).ou, I was think that here we discus from side that have that not big value of 200 kp. and I put word from mysefl, and from my 200 kp party. Btv I otfen write 10x less kp req value than have, and get more wider class/spec in party. And 99% that pt do that content.

But yes, main idea - if you still don't have kp - chance to get in party skilled player decreased each day.

Always pugged, always will. Noticed literally no difference between this patch and last patch. Always cleared all T4s + Recs without a single wipe in pugs, even after patch.

Pugs were a lot worse with old Social Awkwardness, now, with these new instabilities, content feels easier, although sometimes you get one shot for god knows why, and bosses seem a lot tankier. But other than that, no, there hasn't been a decreased quality of pugs, i've noticed an increase actually!

It's a matter of picking the right group.

I have a Druid that I partner up with for T4 dailies, but I've seen no major change in the quality of players that join my LFG. The only difference today is Chrono is harder to find, and as I've changed my LFG desc to include "LF Chrono/Firebrand", I've seen quite a few FBs enter the group, and while I do miss portals and focus pulls, the FB brings the quickness I want, and all is good.

The only issues I've had lately are players afk'ing or leaving after 1 fractal, but I guess people will never stop being people.

@Asum.4960 said:Pugs have not updated their comps yet, and I still see a lot of Chrono + Druid (*2 for Raids), which makes it unsurprising that they are struggling.

I think people often overlook that a chronomancer is a mesmer, and mesmers have a poopton of DPS and crowd management (they have a risk-free taunt! There are only four taunt skills in the game and focus 4 and Gravity Well are off buttons for anything elite or under) and then try to run a raid support build. Chronomancer remains strong but if you try to play fractals like you're in a raid you sacrifice too much damage to make it worthwhile. It's a DPS with a sideline in alacrity if you're in the right place.

I think it's partly that we're getting an influx from The Other Game and fractals=dungeons finder to some people who are still working things out but also people who don't haunt the forums and Reddit working off old metas.

I pretty much stopped playing fractals after fractal god. fractals are too easy and boring

I stop playing fractal for a long time.Now I stop raids too. Only do open world.. relax for busy lifestyle :) both fractal and raids lots of room to get frustrated. I'd rather do other more fun stuff in real life.Bring back HA but 4 teams v 4 teams :P

Back to topic.. I think it being reason a lot of vet fractal players has quit playing it.

PUGs are always hit-and-miss. As someone who almost never runs static I can say that it's gotten worse since the introduction of CMs, but chrono nerf really hasn't changed anything.

I've seen a Dragonhunter maxing out at 600 DPS, a holosmith running three turrets doing less than half damage than a druid, three guardians in the party all of whom told me that there isn't a skill called Wall of Reflection, the list goes on.

Pugs play at the same level as b4, only now there isnt a broken chrono to give all the boons (especially stability) in the game permanently and solo cc every bar. You would be astounded how many attacks and mechanics were simply ignored just because of stability share.

As for chrono in fractals: After the change to soi and mimic and chaos running chrono in pugs is a double edged sword as u either have to play it at a really high level (good uptime, good cc with consumables cause tw, good dps) otherwise it just loses it's value and slows down the group instead of helping.This happens a lot in PUGS atm.And if you're not running consumables on chrono, breaking cc bars fast enough isnt gonna happen.Sad but true.

You also have to know/learn portal skips to further compensate for not running fb+rev which is easier, can bring more overall dps and strong cc (wihout consumables) and most importantly boon application happens instantly by pressing a button instead of wells....

For me what i would really like to try out is a combo of fb + chrono with disenchanter/grav well instead of well of action/tw. The fb can give a crapton of boons (including quickness) which will stay there due to soi while chrono gets a nice dps increase from disenchanter and can focus way more on dps instead of putting wells all the time or running inspiration (optional) for safety blocks.

Each new update is helping fractals to become more and more annoying.There was a time I loved to do fractals every day, now they are too annoying for me.Before I would tell new ppl to do fractals t4 before doing raids, but now raids are much easier than t4 and their stupid instabilities.If the fractal team wants the t4 experience to be harder than raids then they are doing a good job.

yesterday was in a pug t4 team, fb heal, 35k achiv point. on all run NO any second of quickness. sad true.

@zoomborg.9462 said:

For me what i would really like to try out is a combo of fb + chrono with disenchanter/grav well instead of well of action/tw. The fb can give a crapton of boons (including quickness) which will stay there due to soi while chrono gets a nice dps increase from disenchanter and can focus way more on dps instead of putting wells all the time or running inspiration (optional) for safety blocks.

Works very well. It's basically the slight downgrade to Ren+FB but the chrono only has to focus on placing 1 well, all FB provided boons are instant and people are more used to having a chrono. Boonstrip is okay single target but will run short on certain instabilities like No pain, no gain or Vengeance unless your chrono is really into changing utility skills constantly.

The only downsides you need to work around are: Souldbeast for ranger buffs and possibly might. But considering everything else is present, for a PUG group not major issues.

@lare.5129 said:yesterday was in a pug t4 team, fb heal, 35k achiv point. on all run NO any second of quickness. sad true.

Had the same with a Renegade heal and 0 alacrity. I really don't understand were some people get their builds from :o

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"lare.5129" said:yesterday was in a pug t4 team, fb heal, 35k achiv point. on all run NO any second of quickness. sad true.Had the same with a Renegade heal and 0 alacrity. I really don't understand were some people get their builds from :oThe answer is: they're not. Some people just play the game without ever feeling the need to check their build and that's a valid way to play. If it's got them that far, that can't be too bad from their point of view. It's also true that PUGs are semi-random. If you want more control over them, either find a fractal guild or be very specific about what you put in the LFG.

If you're not actively watching your countdowns or animations, it's easy to not really notice the effects of quickness or alacrity. I don't notice when I've got quickness unless I know to look for the boon icon, but I'm chrono-literate enough to know that sometimes I have to chuck alacrity and quickness out like glitter at a hen party or people will get mardy about it. "Sometimes everything gets very intense and I'm on fire and pink for some reason" is all I saw before I really made the connection between the two.

Communication is important as well as people dropping their attitude/ego.

@"Sweal.4659" said:

So i've been pugging recently quite a lot since we lost few members in our full clear static group. And what i've found in pug scared me. Before last changes to chrono, pugging bosses was possible, finding good group was hard but you could find it after few tries. But these days, even the easiest of all encounters is wipefest with any group i join. Have pugs really became so bad or worse, did people that actually know how to raid left after last patch?

Talking about both raids and fractals.

FractalsI can tell you, that you and your static buddies (on a whole as a type of player, not just 5 ppl) are simply reaping what you sow. See i'm a offmeta reaper, that doesn't give crap about "standards". I run crusader gear, I run blood magic, and Signets of Suffering instead of Close to Death and what not, ending up tanky, healy ressy son of a gun that gets his groups through fracs and beats content not by crazy skill, but by tough as nails build that gets my teammates through.

But there's a fair part of community that would lynch you if you're not running metabattle build and comps, if you didn't take potion then you're a "leecher" and should stop playing fracs. Well you prolly know I don't give a rat's ass about none of this nonsense, but most ppl do. And that's how you get your full wipe teams. They are not ready for full dps/no sustain builds, especially in random groups where chronos, druids and what not are not guaranteed. But they run it cause they wanna be "leet" or not be scorned by "pros".

And so here you are with a problem, while i'm in fractals with solution, getting content cleared with potless, foodless and elitismless casual groups:>

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:And so here you are with a problem, while i'm in fractals with solution, getting content cleared with potless, foodless and elitismless casual groups:>Exactly - meta is cool if you want to speed clear, but whatever you enjoy is cool if you want to play, you know, the game.

People complaining about specs not "doing their jobs": what did you put into he LFG?

I mean my chronomancer has 50%BD baseline because I boon all over myself constantly in combat, but I will play it as DPS unless someone specifically requests I switch to support or has "LF support chrono" in the LFG and I feel like punishing myself. If you want 25 seconds of alacrity and quickness I can do it standing on my head but if you just have an open PUG group I will play what I want to play.

Did you write that you needed a firebrand with quickness or did you just open it up?

This is why I write "relaxed dailies for friendly people" in the LFG for my T3's. That's all I go for, and that is why I get people who thank the group and say how much fun it was at the end. Otherwise I just get rage-quitters or rage-kickers.

As Zef said above, you reap what you sow with the LFG. Be clear and specific in your LFG posts if you want clear and specific responses.