Few small scale builds that need a nerf hammer

My opinions based on thousands of hours of roaming. Again these are opinions for discussion and I am not saying these are all equal in their nastiness.

Condi Mirage - Why it is broken: Way too many condition types on one build with heavy condition spike wrapped in one of the most defensively minded offenses in the game. Tons of armor, solid hp, reflect, blocks, invisibility, teleports, invulnerability, etc. How to fix: Reduce the available condi types, outright limit the number of defensive options in one build and straight up remove reflect on dodge.

Power Rifle Deadeye - Why it is broken: It hits like a truck out of stealth and vanishes a second later. Condi doesn't stick to it and there aren't nearly enough reveals. The reveals that do exist are clunky or short range. How to fix: Stealth needs an exhaustion mechanic and Death's Retreat should not power up Lead Attacks.

Malicious Backstab Deadeye - Why it is broken: It hits like two trucks out of stealth and vanishes a second later. How to fix: Same as Power Rifle Deadeye.

Bonus! Underwater Ranger: Why it is broken: Virtually impossible to take down underwater which gives it a massive terrain advantage particularly around EBG Red Keep where packs often tie up the WP there and simply jump off into the water when challenged. How to fix: Downed while underwater needs to be removed, damage needs to be taken from falling when hitting water from high up and that pet heal needs a massive reduction.

Oh OH! now do engineer and warrior!

A few more "gripes":

• The downed Ele mist form should be on a longer cooldown similar to the warriors stand up downed skill.
• Revs hammer is hitting a bit too hard.
• Rangers pew-pew needs to be toned down and other longbow attacks improved to balance it out.
• Rangers Whirling Defense got over tuned.
• Blow up Guardian builds are tuned a bit high but don't need anything drastic just a couple minor tweaks

@"XenesisII.1540" said:Oh OH! now do engineer and warrior!

Warriors double invuln is a pain but their relative lack of range makes them fairly balanced. Holosmiths prior to the last patch were out of control but since the patch they are in a "good place". Both can drop a significant amount of knockdown/stun but all of it can be counter played.

@Straegen.2938 said:My opinions based on thousands of hours of roaming. Again these are opinions for discussion and I am not saying these are all equal in their nastiness.

Condi Mirage - Why it is broken: Way too many condition types on one build with heavy condition spike wrapped in one of the most defensively minded offenses in the game. Tons of armor, solid hp, reflect, blocks, invisibility, teleports, invulnerability, etc. How to fix: Reduce the available condi types, outright limit the number of defensive options in one build and straight up remove reflect on dodge.

Power Rifle Deadeye - Why it is broken: It hits like a truck out of stealth and vanishes a second later. Condi doesn't stick to it and there aren't nearly enough reveals. The reveals that do exist are clunky or short range. How to fix: Stealth needs an exhaustion mechanic and Death's Retreat should not power up Lead Attacks.

Malicious Backstab Deadeye - Why it is broken: It hits like two trucks out of stealth and vanishes a second later. How to fix: Same as Power Rifle Deadeye.

Bonus! Underwater Ranger: Why it is broken: Virtually impossible to take down underwater which gives it a massive terrain advantage particularly around EBG Red Keep where packs often tie up the WP there and simply jump off into the water when challenged. How to fix: Downed while underwater needs to be removed, damage needs to be taken from falling when hitting water from high up and that pet heal needs a massive reduction.

Holosmith - Why it's broken: Holo leap hits for 7k+, can stack and maintain 25 might easily with corona burst and elixirs, all it's skills have crazy power scaling and low cool down. How to fix: Transfer over the PvP nerfs to WvW.

Soulbeast - Why it's broken: Sick'em gives the ranger a 40% damage buff which is far higher than any other buff in the game. Dolyak stance with permanent protection and second skin makes them take 54% less damage from everything for 33% of the fight while having very high mobility from the bird pet and exceptional boon duration from moa stance which is still only 25s CD. Longbow will easily hit for 4-5k+ on auto attacks without buffing, I've seen it hit for 17k+ and rapid fire likewise 40k+ while being unblockable. How to fix: Translate all PvP nerfs over to WvW. Reduce damage bonus of sick em. Reduce stacking damage buffs of ranger across the board then see how bad longbow is.

Revenant - Why it's broken: Easy 25 might from incensed response. Surge of the mists can still knock off 50-90% of your health. How to fix: Translate over all PvP nerfs to WvW.

TLDR: Transfer over all PvP balance to WvW

@apharma.3741 said:TLDR: Transfer over all PvP balance to WvW

That is a good place to start.

So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.

Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

@apharma.3741 said:Soulbeast - Dolyak stance with permanent protection and second skin makes them take 54% less damage from everything for 33% of the fight

It's worse than that. The damage reduction from dolyak stance stacks additively with that of protection traited w/ second skin for 66% damage reduction (condi and direct). I tested it in WvW right after that patch hit.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@apharma.3741 said:Soulbeast - Dolyak stance with permanent protection and second skin makes them take 54% less damage from everything for 33% of the fight

Yeah I was aware of it but hadn't checked if it was still bugged. Thanks for the update.

@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.

Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

No, CA having 10s CD so giving 30% stealth and superspeed uptime with Celestial Shadow was a problem in PvP and is still a problem in WvW. Ancient seeds likewise is still an issue in WvW and was an issue in PvP till they nerfed it. Nearly everything listed in the thread is an issue in PvP and an issue in small scale WvW because they are simply too strong.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

Also scourges, the most popular roamer according to polls!

@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.

This is meant as a discussion about what I and others find overly strong in certain builds and how we would fix it. This is mainly a meta discussion. Balance is related but a different discussion as is how ANet chooses to address changes in various game modes.

My opinion on the balance subject is balance never exists in a game unless everyone plays exactly the same class/build with the same ping and rig.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Also scourges, the most popular roamer according to polls!

Pretty sure all these "Necro Roamers" are actually Reapers pressing F1, then 4 and hoping people die.

@apharma.3741 said:

@"Sylosi.6503" said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.

Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

You could change all of those and roaming in WvW will still be laughably imbalanced, because the game was designed around conquest and that is what provides the real balance to a lot of things that have always been completely imbalanced in WvW.

For example take any class / build that can disengage very easily, in WvW that is completely broken. If I am on one of those classes/builds and I engage on someone then if I screw up or get outplayed, then unless I get blown up I can usually disengage (if I want). So basically the other player is not rewarded for outplaying me and I am not punished for playing poorly, that breaks one of the most fundamental principles in games - risk vs reward. (And to really add to the broken in some situations once I have disengaged I can then come back and try again, and if he makes a mistake he is screwed, one of the main reasons roaming died in this game long ago)

Now the same classes / builds can still disengage easily in PvP, the difference is you get punished for it and your opponent gets rewarded for it, because they win / keep the capture point, you have been inefficient for the last X seconds and their team's score ticks along.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

No one is capable of balancing for 3 different game modes in a game like GW2, it is not possible without completely redesigning how the trait/skill/weapon systems work.

But face it they don't try, anyone awake who for example watched the Twitch streams they did for the first year or so after balance patches or who watched Sacrx's video about alpha, knows pre-HoT the the game was virtually entirely balanced around their "e-sport". Then only when they decided to add raids to PvE with HoT did they also start balancing / designing for that, there has never been any serious attempt to balance WvW just the odd crumb and some lip service. Which to be fair is all that should be expected as mentioned previously it is not possible to balance 3 very different game modes (then different things within them like large scale vs roaming). Frankly you can't even balance for 2 modes, which is part of the reason why PvP in themepark MMORPGs has the reputation does.

Lastly your changes listed above are an example of the problems they have, take CA for instance is the cooldown too short for roaming, possibly, however for guild raids / blobs no it isn't too short, something like Druid is already only mediocre at best in those situations.

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Also scourges, the most popular roamer according to polls!

Damn, got exposed.

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Also scourges, the most popular roamer according to polls!

lies and slander

Too many people wanting to treat t-ball like major league baseball.

If you're in WvW looking for balance and competition, you're doing it wrong. If you "know it's not balanced but want to see it less imbalanced", you don't know what you want and will be never be satisfied until they remove the expansions. Sometimes you have to make the best of what you have. When changes come that you disagree with, it'll be a lot less frustrating.

Also in regards to the amulet system; I literally guarantee this would only make things worse. Do you think the amulet system will remove the ability to disengage at will? Do you think you'll stand a better chance 1vX? Do you think zergs won't be able to death ball everything? All it will do is drive players away and make everyone more squishy. Which isn't something you want in a place where a 1v1 or a 5v5 can very quickly turn in to a XvBlob.

@"Straegen.2938" said:A few more "gripes":

• The downed Ele mist form should be on a longer cooldown similar to the warriors stand up downed skill.it's not that bad

• Revs hammer is hitting a bit too hard.the drawback is the hammers are very predictable due to the slow cast time

• Rangers pew-pew needs to be toned down and other longbow attacks improved to balance it out.yeah, but other than pewpew longbow is pretty mediocre

• Rangers Whirling Defense got over tuned.just stand back and wait for it to finish or the ranger break the channeling on his own? once you done enough 1v1 with them you get used to itdont expect you can just run in and beat the ranger to pulp just because you are in a group

Scourage sandshade is worse than Whirling Defense, it's mobile, cannot be interrupted, grant barrier, fear, torment

Small Scale Builds + Hammer Rev= does...not...compute...error...Maybe try just focusing the rev like they do in pvp, idk just a thought...

!

Haha “small” nerf hammer? Big changes need to happen to tone back the ridiculous powercreep. The games to far gone to be somewhat competitive but atleast it would switch up the stagnant meta

The problem isn't they can't balance 3 modes, the issue is WvW is a cross-over of PvP and PvE, so if they nerfed WvW with the PvP nerfs then WvW would collapse due to people not being able to 'zerg' effectively due to changes and they only ever really implement the PvE balances in WvW to tone down some of the damage classes can output. (Spellbreaker's Full Counter is a prime example of this).

Long story short, as much as you'd like balance to come to WvW, it'll never happen. There's too many variable in WvW for it to be truly balanced. Zerging/blobbing, roaming solo, group roaming etc...

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:So you've played thousands of hours yet still don't understand they barely balance for WvW and what little changes they do make are for large scale, not roaming.

Then beyond that the actual real difference between PvP and roaming when it comes to balance is not a few skill splits, it is that the game mode itself - conquest is the thing that balances most of the stuff that is broken in WvW roaming like excessive mobility, stealth, etc. Which of course you can't bring over to WvW, so just accept that WvW is always going to be trash tier for PvP / balance, because guess what it hasn't changed in 6 years so is not going to magically change now.

The fact is the devs have demonstrated that they're not capable of maintaining 3 different balance states. This isn't me taking a dump on them, they work hard to do what they do but they simply don't have the capacity to balance 3 different game modes and maintain the expansion cadence they have. The best thing they can do is unify competitive game mode balance, yes it will create problems in WvW but it will fix more than it will break given WvW allows food, stat combos, runes and sigils.

Roaming will be imbalanced even if you bring over PvP changes but at least a lot of the worst offenders will be toned down. High stealth DE is also being complained about in PvP so it's not like these things are exclusive to WvW.

While Firebrand exists in it's current form giving so much simply for taking the line many other supports will find it extremely difficult to be included in a blob. Besides so long as druid is capable in a smaller scale fight there's no issue, not every spec has to be good in every situation so long as you can change what you run to be useful. Soulbeast brings exceptionally high focused unblockable ranged damage and can shut down any flanking ranged damage easily with stance share being gravy.

The only reasonable change I see for this is to apply the pvp templates and armor/sigil/food restrictions on wvw.You can't balance a soulbeast in the current state of the game for wvw without removing things like "Diviner Armor". Soulbeast is so strong in many aspects of its existence, boon application, boon access, mobility, damage, damage modifiers, stealth access and all of those are connected to armor stats, sigils, runes and food.This problem applies to most builds that are considered too strong at the moment.You sure could rework that by rework all the classes with all the different builds. But we all know that won't happen. So let's go the smart way and use the pvp system on wvw. Limited to some armor stats, only some runes, no food.

this is a pve game, so your suggestions will not be pushed through friend.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Also scourges, the most popular roamer according to polls!

I wont lie. There is a certain degree of satisfaction you get as a scourge roamer when you manage to kill a holo or a spellbreaker, even a soulbeast (On a rare occasion)... And the opponent just stays dead, surprised

The concept that every class should be able to beat every other class is not the issue. The concept that every class should be efficient in every style of WvW play (zergs, guilds, small scale, roaming, etc) is not the issue. What is the issue is that some builds are simply too efficient which makes countering them exceedingly difficult particularly in skilled hands.

It is fine that builds should be able to escape, but that should come at the cost of offense. It is fine that some builds can rotate defensive skills so heavily they are extremely difficult to defeat, but their DPS should be abysmal. It is fine that some builds hit really hard, but they should have to give up defense and that also means limited stealth. What is not fine is when a build reaches an apex of offense and defense without having to sacrifice survival or damage.