Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong?

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  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

    Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Even back in Pre-Hot Heal Turret has always been very clearly head and shoulders above all other fast popping, requirement free healing skills.

    Not in my experience, but maybe we had different experiences. It was the best choice for engineer at the time, because Elixir H was pretty low on healing, didn't remove any condis, and H was on a longer cooldown. Med kit wasn't worth it, and AED was always too situational (when it was added later).

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    It really is like 20-40% stronger than most other similar heal skills. The average heal skill that doesn't have any kind of prerequirement for getting the most out of it's potential tend to have around 200-280 healing per second. Heal turret ends up being 370 hps.

    Ok, so now you ARE complaining about the water field. Gotcha. Because based on the turret alone, it's weaker than mending, we heal as one, and a few others. It also technically has the longest casting time for comparable heals -> 0.75s + 0.75s (placement + overcharge).

    Now if you want to include the water field in your complaints, please say so! Because then ele is definitely the better healer. :)

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Even if you only take Detonate Heal Turret into account in regards to the field, which you always get and doesn't take skill to use,

    Whoa whoa whoa. Let's unpack this statement as you quickly gloss over it for no apparent reason.

    1. You don't always get the full heal from healing turret, or the detonate. If you are under enough pressure (IE Reaper spin2win, enemy team focusing you, etc), your healing turret will be destroyed before you even get the overcharge, let alone the detonation.
    2. The detonate does take timing, and 2 button presses compared to most people's 1. :tongue: If you spam the heal turret detonate/place button, you will miss out on the overcharge and blast. It's not idiot proof as you would believe. And if you forget to detonate within the water field timeframe, you miss that blast. But you're assuming that engi always gets all those heals.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    when you actually crunch the numbers the healing per second potential of heal turret is on better than heals like Troll Unguent (339 hps), False Oasis (324 hps) and Healing Signet (344 hps) which are balanced around higher healing per second than instantaneous heals at the expense of happening gradually over a longer period of time. It's a burst healing skill tuned to beyond heal over time levels.

    Using your logic, Mending has 434.67 hps. Yet I don't see warriors running it all that often, or you complaining about it. Why is that? Could it be that the game boils down to more than sheer numbers?

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -- snip --

    also holo main since it got released

    Wait... you're complaining they slapped HT onto holo?

    :confused:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -snip

    look at this ..
    1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2
    notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

    and u guys tell me its not broken..

    You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

    @Razor.6392 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

    You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

    I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

    Talk about me in the third person, it feeds my souuuuuul. /s

    Joking aside, you said there were no downsides to holo. I pointed out the downsides.

    I even said the downsides aren't painful for most people, but they are there.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

    Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

    Are you the guy screaming about how mesmer skills are packed so densely? Because a picture of a skill's tooltip without context is a great way to continue the meme.

    Nothing to do with densely packed, it has to do with providing better access to area stealth than both thief and mesmer utilities/elites (taking the cooldown into account).

    // Yanim

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Here is the thing to both of you; balance discussions in a complex game such as guild wars 2 are always and neccessarily subjective. You cannot objectively prove how something should be balanced and making complex analsyses of sustain capabilities based on healing per second, evave, block and all these other infinite variables, then comparing these to other professions in an equally infinite number of possible realistic scenarios is largely going to be a waste of time.

    It might sound stupid to say it like this, but the truth is that we must base our suggestions on feelings and opinions. Nobody proved objectively that Mirage was overpowered, yet there seemed to be consensus on it.

    Exactly. Claiming you've taken into account all situations is a blatant lie. I'm arguing that completely ignoring the complexity and giving only ideal situations is bad for balance.

    If we require objevtive standards for balance changed then what happens is that nothing changes. Some players are also very quick to desire analysis and proof when there is talk of nerfing their own class yet don't care for it particularly when another is on the chopping block.

    I wouldn't say striving for objectivity leads to no changes. And people defending their class against misinformation is expected. Asking for basic evidence of thoughtful analysis is fair in my opinion. Requiring comprehensive analysis isn't.

    @toxic.3648 said:
    an ideal situation that presents it self quite frequently in duels i might add. all u need is 1 more finisher off cd mid duel to pull this off. and u got 2 of them 18s/15s cd's . and holo leap is always availible for a combo finisher due to the low 2s cd. if u play right,kite or use one of the utilities to sustain urself (kinda like stealth up when u see rampage or use elixir s) its no problem getting a 2nd finisher off cd to use with heal. ofc u wont do this if both are 10+s and u need to heal now. then u pop ht with holo 2 leap for 1500 less heal.

    i can draw comparison to core guard since i play that alot too atm.
    it got alot of heal and block + blind. kitten of dmg and ports + invul. yet all u need to do as holo is to kite their burst since they lack reliable hard cc and mobility to follow up. after RF is used and u are just managing on ur cd's u will see the holo healing back up to 80% since all their healing is on 1 healing skill instead of all ur healing which is on utilities + healing skill. sure u can try and reengage but i promise u that if the holo as sustained this far into the match it can most likely keep going unless u can get lucky with a dps spike.

    same with rev. survive the burst and wait for them to switch from shiro. then relax while they get kitten healing and u got 100% in the meantime (ive literally done this)
    and im terrible at fighting revs too.

    or the new beserkers. dodge,block(if possible),invul,kite the arc devider and u will have np with them since they lack sustain to keep up. spellbreakers tho are another story, tough fight for holo. hard to compete with such a duelist build when we are kinda good at everything but not truly great at something.

    just to be clear i want all specs brought down in line. we still have some that are out of line in terms of dmg and sustainability other than holo.

    You misinterpreted my request for ability comparisons as a request for duel advice. These two are very different.

    well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 12k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

    no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

    I honestly feel a bit bad for you that you put in way more effort than most/all others in this discussion, if I were you I might just leave it, you can argue with them ad infinitum yet most will never be satisfied, the best-case scenario is "agree to disagree". Essentially, nothing will have been accomplished.

    // Yanim

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    engi core sustain being a problem lol. what a joke.

    Core can be a problem without being meta. For instance, many think that the high protection uptime from chaos on mesmer is an issue, yet core mesmer is obviously trash. Same with evasive mirror and old confounding suggestions. And blurred inscriptions to some extent.

    // Yanim

  • FyzE.3472FyzE.3472 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

    Ahhhh Razor 1 year later still demands stuff he does not like instead of improving himself or even listening to a friendly advice lol. Some things never change!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    engi core sustain being a problem lol. what a joke.

    Core can be a problem without being meta. For instance, many think that the high protection uptime from chaos on mesmer is an issue, yet core mesmer is obviously trash. Same with evasive mirror and old confounding suggestions. And blurred inscriptions to some extent.

    yeah... you're right. the instances are few and far in between and are usually only a problem when paired with especs tho. so why nerf core to nerf especs? doesn't make any sense. all that does is further force people to play especs. sure there is some stuff that is obviously op, but...

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -snip

    look at this ..
    1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2
    notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

    and u guys tell me its not broken..

    You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

    i feel like a broken record since all i do is repeating myself. this combo is easy to do. i pull it off alot of times when im dueling. also, as far as offensive capabilities ive used 1 hard cc to pull this off on a 15 sec cd. i still have the rest of rifle and photon skills at my disposal to keep pressure up so about 90% of my offensive capabilities are still up. thats far from all offensive capabilities.

    @bethekey.8314 no im not gonna do that for u. instead id like to hear why u think the heal on holo is fine when u couple it with all the utilities it got at its disposal.

    @Quadox.7834 ty dud. was feeling like my point was falling on deaf ears :)

    Toxicity Pengu to the rescue /o/

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    scrapper is too busted

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 15k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

    no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

    Well, you gave up before doing it even once, which makes me doubt you ever took anything but your feelings into account. You aren't obliged to do analysis of course, but I think it might help support any arguments you make.

    He did more than 99% of players. Did you do much else than say "not realistic and doesn't take all situations into account" while requesting further invedtment on his part through further analysis, comparisions between each class, posting duel videos, and so on? Also, as we seemed to agree on before, feelings/opinions are always necessary when discussing balance. Toxic is now telling you his opinion, based on X reason. Maybe you should refer him to your analysis as to why holo isn't overpowered so he has something to work with.

    Also, I may be wrong but from what I've seen Toxic seems to discuss with a pleasant and respectful tone while you seem to often seem to do the opposite, not sure why.

    And as I said before, healing for 15k every 20 seconds requires timing all your blast finishers with your heal. This is unrealistic, bad, and predictable.

    It's on the people making a claim to back it up. I'm content with the status quo right now (for healing turret), which requires no effort to maintain. If he truly believed there was an issue, that healing turret was overperforming in realistic scenarios, then it should be easy to show. I'm surprised how many times I have to say this on these forums.

    I did refer him to my opinion, multiple times. He has not countered it with anything other than vague "nah it's easy dud" responses.

    I actually put effort into proving things I believe to be broken in this game and post gameplay videos from time to time on my youtube channel. Feel free to check them out.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Even back in Pre-Hot Heal Turret has always been very clearly head and shoulders above all other fast popping, requirement free healing skills.

    Not in my experience, but maybe we had different experiences. It was the best choice for engineer at the time, because Elixir H was pretty low on healing, didn't remove any condis, and H was on a longer cooldown. Med kit wasn't worth it, and AED was always too situational (when it was added later).

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    It really is like 20-40% stronger than most other similar heal skills. The average heal skill that doesn't have any kind of prerequirement for getting the most out of it's potential tend to have around 200-280 healing per second. Heal turret ends up being 370 hps.

    Ok, so now you ARE complaining about the water field. Gotcha. Because based on the turret alone, it's weaker than mending, we heal as one, and a few others. It also technically has the longest casting time for comparable heals -> 0.75s + 0.75s (placement + overcharge).

    Now if you want to include the water field in your complaints, please say so! Because then ele is definitely the better healer. :)

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Even if you only take Detonate Heal Turret into account in regards to the field, which you always get and doesn't take skill to use,

    Whoa whoa whoa. Let's unpack this statement as you quickly gloss over it for no apparent reason.

    1. You don't always get the full heal from healing turret, or the detonate. If you are under enough pressure (IE Reaper spin2win, enemy team focusing you, etc), your healing turret will be destroyed before you even get the overcharge, let alone the detonation.
    2. The detonate does take timing, and 2 button presses compared to most people's 1. :tongue: If you spam the heal turret detonate/place button, you will miss out on the overcharge and blast. It's not idiot proof as you would believe. And if you forget to detonate within the water field timeframe, you miss that blast. But you're assuming that engi always gets all those heals.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    when you actually crunch the numbers the healing per second potential of heal turret is on better than heals like Troll Unguent (339 hps), False Oasis (324 hps) and Healing Signet (344 hps) which are balanced around higher healing per second than instantaneous heals at the expense of happening gradually over a longer period of time. It's a burst healing skill tuned to beyond heal over time levels.

    Using your logic, Mending has 434.67 hps. Yet I don't see warriors running it all that often, or you complaining about it. Why is that? Could it be that the game boils down to more than sheer numbers?

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -- snip --

    also holo main since it got released

    Wait... you're complaining they slapped HT onto holo?

    :confused:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -snip

    look at this ..
    1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2
    notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

    and u guys tell me its not broken..

    You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

    @Razor.6392 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

    You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

    I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

    Talk about me in the third person, it feeds my souuuuuul. /s

    Joking aside, you said there were no downsides to holo. I pointed out the downsides.

    I even said the downsides aren't painful for most people, but they are there.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

    Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

    Are you the guy screaming about how mesmer skills are packed so densely? Because a picture of a skill's tooltip without context is a great way to continue the meme.

    Nothing to do with densely packed, it has to do with providing better access to area stealth than both thief and mesmer utilities/elites (taking the cooldown into account).

    It is also the only core engi skill that provides stealth, in the picture it has been grandmaster traited for buffs (Alch line -> HGH), and requires a ground target of a fairly small radius (180) + the elixir itself is a projectile and can be blocked, reflected, or destroyed (I'm not even kidding, this is a real problem for engis). It's not the be-all-end-all of stealth utilities.

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -snip

    look at this ..
    1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2
    notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

    and u guys tell me its not broken..

    You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

    i feel like a broken record since all i do is repeating myself. this combo is easy to do. i pull it off alot of times when im dueling. also, as far as offensive capabilities ive used 1 hard cc to pull this off on a 15 sec cd. i still have the rest of rifle and photon skills at my disposal to keep pressure up so about 90% of my offensive capabilities are still up. thats far from all offensive capabilities.

    In my experience, it's only easy to do if your opponents are not paying the slightest attention, otherwise you have to burn your offensive cooldowns. I end up with >75% heat to make sure I pull off the complete combo, and it's by no means a guarantee.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 15k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

    no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

    Well, you gave up before doing it even once, which makes me doubt you ever took anything but your feelings into account. You aren't obliged to do analysis of course, but I think it might help support any arguments you make.

    He did more than 99% of players. Did you do much else than say "not realistic and doesn't take all situations into account" while requesting further invedtment on his part through further analysis, comparisions between each class, posting duel videos, and so on? Also, as we seemed to agree on before, feelings/opinions are always necessary when discussing balance. Toxic is now telling you his opinion, based on X reason. Maybe you should refer him to your analysis as to why holo isn't overpowered so he has something to work with.

    Also, I may be wrong but from what I've seen Toxic seems to discuss with a pleasant and respectful tone while you seem to often seem to do the opposite, not sure why.

    And as I said before, healing for 15k every 20 seconds requires timing all your blast finishers with your heal. This is unrealistic, bad, and predictable.

    It's on the people making a claim to back it up. I'm content with the status quo right now (for healing turret), which requires no effort to maintain. If he truly believed there was an issue, that healing turret was overperforming in realistic scenarios, then it should be easy to show. I'm surprised how many times I have to say this on these forums.

    He did back it up, with his opinion and experiences, with some reasoning. I thought we already agreed that balance suggestions involve subjective opinions at this point?

    I did refer him to my opinion, multiple times. He has not countered it with anything other than vague "nah it's easy dud" responses.

    I actually put effort into proving things I believe to be broken in this game and post gameplay videos from time to time on my youtube channel. Feel free to check them out.

    Nothing to do with what we are discussing. You should post any bugs you find as bug reports if you haven't already.

    // Yanim

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Even back in Pre-Hot Heal Turret has always been very clearly head and shoulders above all other fast popping, requirement free healing skills.

    Not in my experience, but maybe we had different experiences. It was the best choice for engineer at the time, because Elixir H was pretty low on healing, didn't remove any condis, and H was on a longer cooldown. Med kit wasn't worth it, and AED was always too situational (when it was added later).

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    It really is like 20-40% stronger than most other similar heal skills. The average heal skill that doesn't have any kind of prerequirement for getting the most out of it's potential tend to have around 200-280 healing per second. Heal turret ends up being 370 hps.

    Ok, so now you ARE complaining about the water field. Gotcha. Because based on the turret alone, it's weaker than mending, we heal as one, and a few others. It also technically has the longest casting time for comparable heals -> 0.75s + 0.75s (placement + overcharge).

    Now if you want to include the water field in your complaints, please say so! Because then ele is definitely the better healer. :)

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Even if you only take Detonate Heal Turret into account in regards to the field, which you always get and doesn't take skill to use,

    Whoa whoa whoa. Let's unpack this statement as you quickly gloss over it for no apparent reason.

    1. You don't always get the full heal from healing turret, or the detonate. If you are under enough pressure (IE Reaper spin2win, enemy team focusing you, etc), your healing turret will be destroyed before you even get the overcharge, let alone the detonation.
    2. The detonate does take timing, and 2 button presses compared to most people's 1. :tongue: If you spam the heal turret detonate/place button, you will miss out on the overcharge and blast. It's not idiot proof as you would believe. And if you forget to detonate within the water field timeframe, you miss that blast. But you're assuming that engi always gets all those heals.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    when you actually crunch the numbers the healing per second potential of heal turret is on better than heals like Troll Unguent (339 hps), False Oasis (324 hps) and Healing Signet (344 hps) which are balanced around higher healing per second than instantaneous heals at the expense of happening gradually over a longer period of time. It's a burst healing skill tuned to beyond heal over time levels.

    Using your logic, Mending has 434.67 hps. Yet I don't see warriors running it all that often, or you complaining about it. Why is that? Could it be that the game boils down to more than sheer numbers?

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -- snip --

    also holo main since it got released

    Wait... you're complaining they slapped HT onto holo?

    :confused:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -snip

    look at this ..
    1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2
    notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

    and u guys tell me its not broken..

    You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

    @Razor.6392 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

    You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

    I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

    Talk about me in the third person, it feeds my souuuuuul. /s

    Joking aside, you said there were no downsides to holo. I pointed out the downsides.

    I even said the downsides aren't painful for most people, but they are there.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

    Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

    Are you the guy screaming about how mesmer skills are packed so densely? Because a picture of a skill's tooltip without context is a great way to continue the meme.

    Nothing to do with densely packed, it has to do with providing better access to area stealth than both thief and mesmer utilities/elites (taking the cooldown into account).

    It is also the only core engi skill that provides stealth, in the picture it has been grandmaster traited for buffs (Alch line -> HGH), and requires a ground target of a fairly small radius (180) + the elixir itself is a projectile and can be blocked, reflected, or destroyed (I'm not even kidding, this is a real problem for engis). It's not the be-all-end-all of stealth utilities.

    I know that.

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    -snip

    look at this ..
    1 healing turret. blast turret+ holo 5 + holo 2 then toolbelt+holo 2
    notice i havent even disengaged forge for heat therapy. all i did was wait the regen out and sure i got some off healing from compounding chemicals (37hp per boon) lets say i stacked 10 boons just for kitten and giggles. 370 hp... rest is all healing turret. im on demolisher amu sanctuary runes

    and u guys tell me its not broken..

    You spent about 5-6 seconds and all your offensive capability to heal that much. In fights, that's generally not realistic.

    i feel like a broken record since all i do is repeating myself. this combo is easy to do. i pull it off alot of times when im dueling. also, as far as offensive capabilities ive used 1 hard cc to pull this off on a 15 sec cd. i still have the rest of rifle and photon skills at my disposal to keep pressure up so about 90% of my offensive capabilities are still up. thats far from all offensive capabilities.

    In my experience, it's only easy to do if your opponents are not paying the slightest attention, otherwise you have to burn your offensive cooldowns. I end up with >75% heat to make sure I pull off the complete combo, and it's by no means a guarantee.

    // Yanim

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    So, some thoughts.

    Goal: to reduce Holo's near-zero counterplay sustain that it gets in the form of Heat Therapy and shift that sustain, IN PART, to other areas - either with barrier, healing, or utility (such as stab or chill) that allows damage mitigation. Give slight damage bumps because who needs sustain if the enemy is DEAD. Buff underused skills.

    • Heat Therapy has to go. Replace it with a trait that pulses burns while venting heat, strong enough that maybe condi holo could be more of a thing, but weak enough that it's only a debatably minor/inconsequential damage bump for power holo. Maybe throw in a blind, cripple or short chill every 3rd or 4th pulse (rewards venting heat for longer).

    • Coolant Blast needs love. Increase the Chill (okay maybe not the Chill >.>), Frost Aura and HoT to 6 sec durations. Scale the HoT based on heat - 50% is 1500, 3000 at 100% and 0 at 0%. Something along those lines. Bonus: Why does the toolbelt skill of Coolant Blast self inflict burns? That's dumb. Make it 2/4 condis and no burns.

    • Light Stike needs a damage bump. It's honestly pathetic (Gw2skills listing it at 490 tooltip w/Demo amulet). Would like a tooltip of 600-650.

    • Holographic Shockwave. Why does this have 100% crit chance? Remove that, reduce heat cost by 5%.

    • Elixir H needs several times the Protection uptime it currently offers, plus maybe a mite of Resistance? Kthx.

    • Crystal Config: Eclipse: 1 stack of stab but for longer duration(4-6 sec). Up the amount of barrier per target struck (600?). Oooor remove the barrier and shift it to Zephyr before bumping it up a bit and buff the Stab trait a bit more, so they have the option of stab, sustain via barrier, or damage via Storm. Not too bothered by the barrier though.

    • Minor damage, distance and maybe (extremely small) CD bump to Forge #2.

    Hard Light Arena : -5 sec CD.

    Ofc, this is assuming other meta setups get some adjustments at the same time, lest we jump right from adjusting holo to punting it out of the meta and into the muck.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I guess you could say they're just..

    'Puts on shades'

    Engineered that way!!

    YEEEEEAAAAAA!!!!!

    Why is the theme song for CSI Miami playing as I read this 😂😂

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Some synthesis. Emphases in bold.
    My two cents: No matter how you slice it, Holo has a kitten ton of sustain relative to damage output, especially compared to specs that aren't Soulbeast or Spellbreaker. All three specs are remaining vestiges of POF power creep and are due for real "trade offs" and toning down.

    I think you missed my point, I agree Holo, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast has asymmetrically high healing & damage features baked in.

    Another observation, Thief & Mes have asymmetrically high avoidance & in combat mobility.

    Thief and Mes (excluding chronobunk which isn't really a thing post scepter-nerf) are squishy. All they really have for sustain are avoidance and mobility. Meanwhile they do jack-all for damage outside meme builds.

    Holo, Spellbreaker, and Soulbeast "have it all": sustain, mobility, and damage. They may not be the best at any one of these but they're certainly well above average in each. Combine above average sustain + mobility + damage in one package and you get overperformers like these.

    You have to look at the PvP tier lists, pick priority, these things primarily to determine what to tune down.

    Tuning down holo, Spellbreaker & Soulbeast sustain, adding tradeoffs, that's cool, but if we're smart and looking at the tier lists, that makes Scourge, FB, and Revenant even more dominant unless they get equally nerfed too.

    Balancing for overall performance & desirability >>> balancing to normalize all the classes damage, sustain, etc.

    Scourge was one of the first POF specs to receive major nerfs. Deadeye and Mirage have now too--so much so that some would say they've been nerfed out of meta. Not unviable, but not meta. The same cannot be said of Holo, Spellbreaker, and Soulbeast. No one reasonable wants them nerfed to the ground. But paring them down to levels other specs have been would be good for "overall performance and desirability." If that leaves Firebrand, Revenant, and Scourge (again) overperforming, they can be shaved too.

    The goal, however challenging, should be relative performance balance across all specs. That does not mean normalizing their individual strengths and weaknesses, but striving for "full package" balance. Right now, the "full package" that is Holo, Spellbreaker, or Soulbeast is above and beyond that of any other spec.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    He did back it up, with his opinion and experiences, with some reasoning. I thought we already agreed that balance suggestions involve subjective opinions at this point?

    He cited a laundry list of skills and what they can do in unrealistic situations. That isn't backing it up, at least to me, because changes would affect realistic situations. He also could make no comparisons to other classes meta builds.

    You take his word for a lot it seems. I have no clue what caliber of player he is. Do you? A lot of things seem too good at different skill levels.

    If you're confused about where I stand on balance suggestions from our previous discussion, here was my response:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Here is the thing to both of you; balance discussions in a complex game such as guild wars 2 are always and neccessarily subjective. You cannot objectively prove how something should be balanced and making complex analsyses of sustain capabilities based on healing per second, evave, block and all these other infinite variables, then comparing these to other professions in an equally infinite number of possible realistic scenarios is largely going to be a waste of time.

    It might sound stupid to say it like this, but the truth is that we must base our suggestions on feelings and opinions. Nobody proved objectively that Mirage was overpowered, yet there seemed to be consensus on it.

    Exactly. Claiming you've taken into account all situations is a blatant lie. I'm arguing that completely ignoring the complexity and giving only ideal situations is bad for balance.

    If we require objevtive standards for balance changed then what happens is that nothing changes. Some players are also very quick to desire analysis and proof when there is talk of nerfing their own class yet don't care for it particularly when another is on the chopping block.

    I wouldn't say striving for objectivity leads to no changes. And people defending their class against misinformation is expected. Asking for basic evidence of thoughtful analysis is fair in my opinion. Requiring comprehensive analysis isn't.

    Toxic claimed that he did take into account the other variables, which is a lie. And balance being subjective isn't an excuse to be stupid about it.

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Nothing to do with what we are discussing.

    Actually, you brought up effort in proving points and made the comparison between myself and toxic, praising him for his lackluster effort while incorrectly placing burden of proof on me. See below. I think we have very different standards for what qualifies as convincing evidence and good effort.

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    He did more than 99% of players. Did you do much else than say "not realistic and doesn't take all situations into account" while requesting further invedtment on his part through further analysis, comparisions between each class, posting duel videos, and so on? Also, as we seemed to agree on before, feelings/opinions are always necessary when discussing balance. Toxic is now telling you his opinion, based on X reason. Maybe you should refer him to your analysis as to why holo isn't overpowered so he has something to work with.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    The goal, however challenging, should be relative performance balance across all specs. That does not mean normalizing their individual strengths and weaknesses, but striving for "full package" balance. Right now, the "full package" that is Holo, Spellbreaker, or Soulbeast is above and beyond that of any other spec.

    I can't necessarily say I agree that these are the only specs that need nerfing. I see a Firebrand/Scourge combo on the enemy team, and my team has neither in ranked... unless our damage is out of this world, we're going to lose the match. Certain classes and combinations are generally overpowered (IE Rev+Thief or Scourge + Condi mirage), and the interaction between these classes needs to be addressed as well. While holo, soulbeast, and spellbreaker are strong, they usually have fewer of these synergies with other classes.

    As far as duelists go, you're right -- holo, spellbreaker, and soulbeast are overperforming as duelists, because they're really good at more than just dueling. Holo performs well in teamfights, soulbeast is great at sniping/ganking, and spellbreaker can tank and CC stupidly well when played right.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To respond to OP's. Engies is strong & has been for a while cuz of it's immense sustain while still able to dish out loads of damage. Especially under the hands of a good player.

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    Holo is already risky, but it also has Excess that reduce the risk, and there's also core skills that reduce the risk. Anyone not bringing those is dancing on the edge, but remove those and holosmith that are not build to be risky would stop working.
    Maybe they could get a bit of a Berserker treatment. Deal more damage the higher their heat, but also receive more damage the higher their heat. Defensive Exceed skills would then focus more on damage and less on defense the more heat the Holomancer has, instead just having bonuses on higher heat.
    Holomancers also rely a lots in stacking disables, keeping enemies down during their bursts and spamming so much CC enemies can't get away even with stun breaks, but thats not a holomancer problem, it's a stun break problem.
    Stun breaks should provide 0.75 of guaranteed stun immunity upon a successful stun break (not simply when using the skill) allowing players to get away if they were not immobilized beforehand, so stacked disable spam become a waste of skills, and it's wiser to pace them to ensure they'll work.
    This would also give players facing CC-spamming builds a heads up when they get immobilized as it'll signal the enemy may try to stun them and keep them from running away with a stun break.
    It'd be even better if there was a cummulative stun resistance mechanic that prevents CC spamming from working for too long on one character.

    As for scrapper, it's mostly barrier spam. It's nice that they got all those sources of barrier, but they can get it a tad too often and with large amounts. Scourges need to build up life force to do keep spamming barrier, and weavers got only very small numbers and longer cooldowns.
    Longer cooldown on adaptative armor, less barrier or longer cooldown on Bulkwark gyro, giving Shock shield an internal cooldown so they don't get too much barrier, or a barrier cap...

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    // Yanim

  • @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    The goal, however challenging, should be relative performance balance across all specs. That does not mean normalizing their individual strengths and weaknesses, but striving for "full package" balance. Right now, the "full package" that is Holo, Spellbreaker, or Soulbeast is above and beyond that of any other spec.

    I can't necessarily say I agree that these are the only specs that need nerfing. I see a Firebrand/Scourge combo on the enemy team, and my team has neither in ranked... unless our damage is out of this world, we're going to lose the match. Certain classes and combinations are generally overpowered (IE Rev+Thief or Scourge + Condi mirage), and the interaction between these classes needs to be addressed as well. While holo, soulbeast, and spellbreaker are strong, they usually have fewer of these synergies with other classes.

    As far as duelists go, you're right -- holo, spellbreaker, and soulbeast are overperforming as duelists, because they're really good at more than just dueling. Holo performs well in teamfights, soulbeast is great at sniping/ganking, and spellbreaker can tank and CC stupidly well when played right.

    Yeah I was talking about Holosmith, Spellbreaker, and Soulbeast individually. There are certainly class synergies like the ones you mentioned but their advantages can be hit or miss because of the coordination required, especially in solo queue, even more so in lower ranks.

    It is admittedly difficult to balance across roles. How does one compare roamers versus bunkers versus bruisers versus supports? Again I think one has to look at the overall package. Scourge, for example, is only at its full potential with Firebrand support. Rev hits hard but sacrifices sustain. It also moved up in the hierarchy in part because its counter, condi-mirage, was nerfed into near non-existence. Thief has been nerfed repeatedly down to more or less one viable build whose sole role is decap and +1. It has best-in-game mobility but sacrifices durability and damage.

    What these all have in common is sacrifices and trade-offs. Sacrifices and trade-offs that Holosmith, Spellbreaker, and Soulbeast largely lack. They're each easily second-tier in the departments of sustain, mobility, and damage. Having all those in one build is partly what makes them so versatile and meta defining.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Welcome to most classes in PvP.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • James.1065James.1065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    Am I the only one not experiencing any major issues when fighting an engi? I would rather see warrior or ranger get all this nerf attention.

    Call me a troll for being non-conformist, but on my reaper (which I main) I do come across 1 or 2 good engi's every now and then that take a ton of time to kill, but I can honestly say i reck the majority of them and don't see such a big issue with them

    Mesmer gives me higher blood pressure than an engi!

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    @James.1065 said:
    Am I the only one not experiencing any major issues when fighting an engi? I would rather see warrior or ranger get all this nerf attention.

    Call me a troll for being non-conformist, but on my reaper (which I main) I do come across 1 or 2 good engi's every now and then that take a ton of time to kill, but I can honestly say i reck the majority of them and don't see such a big issue with them

    Mesmer gives me higher blood pressure than an engi!

    well generally necro's wont have a hard time due to boon corrupt stab to fear and chill, if holo cant move and kite its dead meat unless u are facing a prot holo that can facetank some of ur dmg

    Toxicity Pengu to the rescue /o/

  • James.1065James.1065 Member ✭✭✭

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @James.1065 said:
    Am I the only one not experiencing any major issues when fighting an engi? I would rather see warrior or ranger get all this nerf attention.

    Call me a troll for being non-conformist, but on my reaper (which I main) I do come across 1 or 2 good engi's every now and then that take a ton of time to kill, but I can honestly say i reck the majority of them and don't see such a big issue with them

    Mesmer gives me higher blood pressure than an engi!

    well generally necro's wont have a hard time due to boon corrupt stab to fear and chill, if holo cant move and kite its dead meat unless u are facing a prot holo that can facetank some of ur dmg

    In that case leave the engi to the reaper on your team and focus on other targets and nodes!

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    He did back it up, with his opinion and experiences, with some reasoning. I thought we already agreed that balance suggestions involve subjective opinions at this point?

    He cited a laundry list of skills and what they can do in unrealistic situations. That isn't backing it up, at least to me, because changes would affect realistic situations. He also could make no comparisons to other classes meta builds.

    You take his word for a lot it seems. I have no clue what caliber of player he is. Do you? A lot of things seem too good at different skill levels.

    im P2+ when i usually do ranked. havent done it lately due to being in the middle of moving so cant show u screenshot of it. but have played pvp for 3.5 years now and exclusively played holo since pof released. if ure wondering why pvp lvl is so low its due to me having 3 acc's ive played on.

    i would gladly duel u to show u what i mean if u are up for it . im on EU

    Toxicity Pengu to the rescue /o/

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Just because of of core is trash does not mean that the rest is off-limits. We can pretty much see that
    Holo = Scrapper = Alchemy > Inventions > Tools > Explosives > Firearms (Very roughly, if we go by meta build viability).

    To differenciate between holo, scrap and alch, (and where to target a nerf) further reasoning is required. I.E. saying "core is unviable so don't nerf it" is not quite enough.

    // Yanim

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Here is the thing to both of you; balance discussions in a complex game such as guild wars 2 are always and neccessarily subjective. You cannot objectively prove how something should be balanced and making complex analsyses of sustain capabilities based on healing per second, evave, block and all these other infinite variables, then comparing these to other professions in an equally infinite number of possible realistic scenarios is largely going to be a waste of time.

    It might sound stupid to say it like this, but the truth is that we must base our suggestions on feelings and opinions. Nobody proved objectively that Mirage was overpowered, yet there seemed to be consensus on it.

    Exactly. Claiming you've taken into account all situations is a blatant lie. I'm arguing that completely ignoring the complexity and giving only ideal situations is bad for balance.

    If we require objevtive standards for balance changed then what happens is that nothing changes. Some players are also very quick to desire analysis and proof when there is talk of nerfing their own class yet don't care for it particularly when another is on the chopping block.

    I wouldn't say striving for objectivity leads to no changes. And people defending their class against misinformation is expected. Asking for basic evidence of thoughtful analysis is fair in my opinion. Requiring comprehensive analysis isn't.

    @toxic.3648 said:
    an ideal situation that presents it self quite frequently in duels i might add. all u need is 1 more finisher off cd mid duel to pull this off. and u got 2 of them 18s/15s cd's . and holo leap is always availible for a combo finisher due to the low 2s cd. if u play right,kite or use one of the utilities to sustain urself (kinda like stealth up when u see rampage or use elixir s) its no problem getting a 2nd finisher off cd to use with heal. ofc u wont do this if both are 10+s and u need to heal now. then u pop ht with holo 2 leap for 1500 less heal.

    i can draw comparison to core guard since i play that alot too atm.
    it got alot of heal and block + blind. kitten of dmg and ports + invul. yet all u need to do as holo is to kite their burst since they lack reliable hard cc and mobility to follow up. after RF is used and u are just managing on ur cd's u will see the holo healing back up to 80% since all their healing is on 1 healing skill instead of all ur healing which is on utilities + healing skill. sure u can try and reengage but i promise u that if the holo as sustained this far into the match it can most likely keep going unless u can get lucky with a dps spike.

    same with rev. survive the burst and wait for them to switch from shiro. then relax while they get kitten healing and u got 100% in the meantime (ive literally done this)
    and im terrible at fighting revs too.

    or the new beserkers. dodge,block(if possible),invul,kite the arc devider and u will have np with them since they lack sustain to keep up. spellbreakers tho are another story, tough fight for holo. hard to compete with such a duelist build when we are kinda good at everything but not truly great at something.

    just to be clear i want all specs brought down in line. we still have some that are out of line in terms of dmg and sustainability other than holo.

    You misinterpreted my request for ability comparisons as a request for duel advice. These two are very different.

    well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 12k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

    no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

    I honestly feel a bit bad for you that you put in way more effort than most/all others in this discussion, if I were you I might just leave it, you can argue with them ad infinitum yet most will never be satisfied, the best-case scenario is "agree to disagree". Essentially, nothing will have been accomplished.

    Not to mention that even half of the time you pull this combo off you're still applying pressure with shockwave and even leap at the guy.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    If we Nerf Alchemy and Inventions then i can promise you Engi in general going to be a none playable spec.

    Every other trait line at the moment is completely kitten and useless. What Anet needs to do is rework fire arms and explosives if they want to make engi look more "balance". Nerfing the only 2 viable traits they have would be completely stupid.

    Nerf Holo Leap 2 by giving it a 8sec cd, Increase heat on Auto AA in PF for Holo and we should be perfectly fine for a while. To those crying about Elixir S stealth needs to stop memeing on the forums cause that's a none issue for any good player.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Welcome to most classes in PvP.

    So your solution is to nerf everything that isn't garbage in core? Rather than nerfing the thing that you think is the problem?

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Just because of of core is trash does not mean that the rest is off-limits. We can pretty much see that
    Holo = Scrapper = Alchemy > Inventions > Tools > Explosives > Firearms (Very roughly, if we go by meta build viability).

    To differenciate between holo, scrap and alch, (and where to target a nerf) further reasoning is required. I.E. saying "core is unviable so don't nerf it" is not quite enough.

    But this whole argument is predicated on treating alchemy like it's an elite spec, which it is not. It doesn't fundamentally alter the way you play the game like the elite specs do. As a whole, it's a defensive traitline taken usually to complement more offensively focused builds, or enhance defensive builds.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • zionophir.6845zionophir.6845 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    i played earlier and my team mate engi baby-sitted far with his health pulsing from 50% to 75% constantly and facing 2-3 enemies.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Welcome to most classes in PvP.

    So your solution is to nerf everything that isn't garbage in core? Rather than nerfing the thing that you think is the problem?

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Just because of of core is trash does not mean that the rest is off-limits. We can pretty much see that
    Holo = Scrapper = Alchemy > Inventions > Tools > Explosives > Firearms (Very roughly, if we go by meta build viability).

    To differenciate between holo, scrap and alch, (and where to target a nerf) further reasoning is required. I.E. saying "core is unviable so don't nerf it" is not quite enough.

    But this whole argument is predicated on treating alchemy like it's an elite spec, which it is not. It doesn't fundamentally alter the way you play the game like the elite specs do. As a whole, it's a defensive traitline taken usually to complement more offensively focused builds, or enhance defensive builds.

    That's what we ought to do, we should not treat core and elite specs as equal, because when you are a "holosmith" (for example) you always have the "holosmith" traitline whereas when you are "core engi" you just have any 3 out of 5 possible lines. Core engi (or core any other class) being unviable doesn't mean that all 5 lines are unviable, it is very possible that 1-2 lines are equally strong as the elite spec. Engi/scrap/holo needs alchemy, war/spb/berserker needs discipline, ele/tempest/weaver needs arcana, ranger/druid/sb needs wilderness survival, and so on.

    // Yanim

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Welcome to most classes in PvP.

    So your solution is to nerf everything that isn't garbage in core? Rather than nerfing the thing that you think is the problem?

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Just because of of core is trash does not mean that the rest is off-limits. We can pretty much see that
    Holo = Scrapper = Alchemy > Inventions > Tools > Explosives > Firearms (Very roughly, if we go by meta build viability).

    To differenciate between holo, scrap and alch, (and where to target a nerf) further reasoning is required. I.E. saying "core is unviable so don't nerf it" is not quite enough.

    But this whole argument is predicated on treating alchemy like it's an elite spec, which it is not. It doesn't fundamentally alter the way you play the game like the elite specs do. As a whole, it's a defensive traitline taken usually to complement more offensively focused builds, or enhance defensive builds.

    That's what we ought to do, we should not treat core and elite specs as equal, because when you are a "holosmith" (for example) you always have the "holosmith" traitline whereas when you are "core engi" you just have any 3 out of 5 possible lines. Core engi (or core any other class) being unviable doesn't mean that all 5 lines are unviable, it is very possible that 1-2 lines are equally strong as the elite spec. Engi/scrap/holo needs alchemy, war/spb/berserker needs discipline, ele/tempest/weaver needs arcana, ranger/druid/sb needs wilderness survival, and so on.

    It is possible that the two core lines are equally strong, but also by no means a certainty. The core lines you pick have to be ones that make the most sense for your build, to maximize the bang for your buck. The fact is that alchemy synergizes with the most engineer builds in PvP because it's one of our strongest defensive picks, and firearms and explosives don't have anything in the way of defense. The last choice is between inventions and tools which feature a healthy mix of offensive and defensive traits.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Welcome to most classes in PvP.

    So your solution is to nerf everything that isn't garbage in core? Rather than nerfing the thing that you think is the problem?

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Just because of of core is trash does not mean that the rest is off-limits. We can pretty much see that
    Holo = Scrapper = Alchemy > Inventions > Tools > Explosives > Firearms (Very roughly, if we go by meta build viability).

    To differenciate between holo, scrap and alch, (and where to target a nerf) further reasoning is required. I.E. saying "core is unviable so don't nerf it" is not quite enough.

    But this whole argument is predicated on treating alchemy like it's an elite spec, which it is not. It doesn't fundamentally alter the way you play the game like the elite specs do. As a whole, it's a defensive traitline taken usually to complement more offensively focused builds, or enhance defensive builds.

    That's what we ought to do, we should not treat core and elite specs as equal, because when you are a "holosmith" (for example) you always have the "holosmith" traitline whereas when you are "core engi" you just have any 3 out of 5 possible lines. Core engi (or core any other class) being unviable doesn't mean that all 5 lines are unviable, it is very possible that 1-2 lines are equally strong as the elite spec. Engi/scrap/holo needs alchemy, war/spb/berserker needs discipline, ele/tempest/weaver needs arcana, ranger/druid/sb needs wilderness survival, and so on.

    It is possible that the two core lines are equally strong, but also by no means a certainty. The core lines you pick have to be ones that make the most sense for your build, to maximize the bang for your buck. The fact is that alchemy synergizes with the most engineer builds in PvP because it's one of our strongest defensive picks, and firearms and explosives don't have anything in the way of defense. The last choice is between inventions and tools which feature a healthy mix of offensive and defensive traits.

    Exactly right. People run Alchemy/Inventions not because they're so much better than the other trait lines, but because they are defensive traitlines and Explosives/Firearms are offensive ones. (Tools is more utility).

    Meta Scrapper runs 2 defensive traitlines because it is trying to be as much of a bunker as possible. It doesn't take Firearms or Explosives because neither help it in its goal of tanking on a point as long as possible.

    Meta Holo runs 2 defensive traitlines because it already gets all the damage it needs from Photon Forge. It doesn't need to invest any traits or skills into more, so it can afford to spend the rest of its build on survivability.

    • Minor damage, distance and maybe (extremely small) CD bump to Forge #2.

    You want to nerf easy to counter gold strats and buff the single strongest engi skill in the game which provides high, constant mobility? SEEMS VALID

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Welcome to most classes in PvP.

    So your solution is to nerf everything that isn't garbage in core? Rather than nerfing the thing that you think is the problem?

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Just because of of core is trash does not mean that the rest is off-limits. We can pretty much see that
    Holo = Scrapper = Alchemy > Inventions > Tools > Explosives > Firearms (Very roughly, if we go by meta build viability).

    To differenciate between holo, scrap and alch, (and where to target a nerf) further reasoning is required. I.E. saying "core is unviable so don't nerf it" is not quite enough.

    But this whole argument is predicated on treating alchemy like it's an elite spec, which it is not. It doesn't fundamentally alter the way you play the game like the elite specs do. As a whole, it's a defensive traitline taken usually to complement more offensively focused builds, or enhance defensive builds.

    That's what we ought to do, we should not treat core and elite specs as equal, because when you are a "holosmith" (for example) you always have the "holosmith" traitline whereas when you are "core engi" you just have any 3 out of 5 possible lines. Core engi (or core any other class) being unviable doesn't mean that all 5 lines are unviable, it is very possible that 1-2 lines are equally strong as the elite spec. Engi/scrap/holo needs alchemy, war/spb/berserker needs discipline, ele/tempest/weaver needs arcana, ranger/druid/sb needs wilderness survival, and so on.

    It is possible that the two core lines are equally strong, but also by no means a certainty. The core lines you pick have to be ones that make the most sense for your build, to maximize the bang for your buck. The fact is that alchemy synergizes with the most engineer builds in PvP because it's one of our strongest defensive picks, and firearms and explosives don't have anything in the way of defense. The last choice is between inventions and tools which feature a healthy mix of offensive and defensive traits.

    Exactly right. People run Alchemy/Inventions not because they're so much better than the other trait lines, but because they are defensive traitlines and Explosives/Firearms are offensive ones. (Tools is more utility).

    For scrapper, I get it. It plays to its strengths.

    But for the specs built for damage, the offensive traitlines should see more use than they do. The trouble is that they don't really offer that much more of an edge to elite specs.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Welcome to most classes in PvP.

    So your solution is to nerf everything that isn't garbage in core? Rather than nerfing the thing that you think is the problem?

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    They can do too many things at the same time. But also too few.

    It's to hard to balance something with such a huge range and variety. If you make the most powerful builds balanced, you utterly destroy anything that isn't nowhere near as powerful.

    The only way to address that would be a rework from the ground up that would not be very welcomed by players who favor engineer.

    Why is a rework necessary? We have a simple problem: The elite specs are too strong. There is a simple solution: nerf the elite specs.

    Holo deals TONS of aoe damage and CC but is not at all risky to play. Solution: Make Holo risky to play:

    • possibly reduce access to protection on Holo skills
    • possibly cut healing on Photon Forge from Heat Therapy
    • possibly reduce PF damage so the Holo is forced to take offensive rather than defensive utility skills

    Scrapper is very tanky and can bunker a point too well against 1-2 players. Solution: Tweak Scrapper's numbers

    • This whole situation came about when Bulwark Gyro was reworked so that it couldn't be killed and provided a huge barrier to the scrapper instead of reducing % damage
    • possibly tweak the bulwark gyro numbers so that they scale based on the number of nearby enemies. More opponents = more barrier. 1v1 = much less barrier

    idunno. just my thoughts.

    It's frustrating seeing people calling for nerfs to core when core engi isn't even remotely viable. I dare you. Try taking core into a ranked pvp game. Let me know how that goes for you.

    I agree that nerfing the offending elite spec should generally take precedence over the core spec. But I also think we (as in "the community") should be more careful when looking at core as a monolith. That is to say, many of "us" seem to treat the idea of core equal to that of an elite spec. I think we should rather look at each core traitline in a more separate fashion, akin to how elite specs function.

    For instance, it is true as you say that all meta engi builds use an elite spec, either scrapper or holo. However, it is also true that all meta eng specs usr alchemy. The conclusion is that the strongest (or perhaps most versatile) traitlines on engi are holosmith, scrapper, and alchemy. Which one of these to nerf (hypothetically) is less obvious. And so, whether or not the profession can be played core-only is of less imortance.

    I was trying to point this out, but a lot of the other traitlines in core engi are hot garbage for competitive modes. There's no reason why you'd pick firearms or explosives over tools, inventions, or alchemy.

    Yeah, that's what I said. Just because of of core is trash does not mean that the rest is off-limits. We can pretty much see that
    Holo = Scrapper = Alchemy > Inventions > Tools > Explosives > Firearms (Very roughly, if we go by meta build viability).

    To differenciate between holo, scrap and alch, (and where to target a nerf) further reasoning is required. I.E. saying "core is unviable so don't nerf it" is not quite enough.

    But this whole argument is predicated on treating alchemy like it's an elite spec, which it is not. It doesn't fundamentally alter the way you play the game like the elite specs do. As a whole, it's a defensive traitline taken usually to complement more offensively focused builds, or enhance defensive builds.

    That's what we ought to do, we should not treat core and elite specs as equal, because when you are a "holosmith" (for example) you always have the "holosmith" traitline whereas when you are "core engi" you just have any 3 out of 5 possible lines. Core engi (or core any other class) being unviable doesn't mean that all 5 lines are unviable, it is very possible that 1-2 lines are equally strong as the elite spec. Engi/scrap/holo needs alchemy, war/spb/berserker needs discipline, ele/tempest/weaver needs arcana, ranger/druid/sb needs wilderness survival, and so on.

    It is possible that the two core lines are equally strong, but also by no means a certainty. The core lines you pick have to be ones that make the most sense for your build, to maximize the bang for your buck. The fact is that alchemy synergizes with the most engineer builds in PvP because it's one of our strongest defensive picks, and firearms and explosives don't have anything in the way of defense. The last choice is between inventions and tools which feature a healthy mix of offensive and defensive traits.

    For sure, all I am saying from the start is that the often-used argument of "core engi isn't viable so you should only nerf elite specs" isn't enough (same for every class). It's better to say "firearms isn't used in any viable build so should not be a priority for nerfs", aka view each line separately (although affected by one another).

    Sidenote, it doesn't have to be two, it could be one traitline that's equal to the elite spec and the last slot is "filled" by the least bad of the remaining core lines.

    // Yanim

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Some synthesis. Emphases in bold.
    My two cents: No matter how you slice it, Holo has a kitten ton of sustain relative to damage output, especially compared to specs that aren't Soulbeast or Spellbreaker. All three specs are remaining vestiges of POF power creep and are due for real "trade offs" and toning down.

    I think you missed my point, I agree Holo, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast has asymmetrically high healing & damage features baked in.

    Another observation, Thief & Mes have asymmetrically high avoidance & in combat mobility.

    You have to look at the PvP tier lists, pick priority, these things primarily to determine what to tune down.

    Tuning down holo, Spellbreaker & Soulbeast sustain, adding tradeoffs, that's cool, but if we're smart and looking at the tier lists, that makes Scourge, FB, and Revenant even more dominant unless they get equally nerfed too.

    Balancing for overall performance & desirability >>> balancing to normalize all the classes damage, sustain, etc.

    I don't really know how you can say Mesmer has asymmetrically high mobility. Trama Spellbreaker and even Dagger Spellbreaker have higher in combat and out of combat mobility than any mesmer build. Mesmer has access to shadowsteps that let them traverse up certain ledges instantly that not ever class can do, but warriors are much faster overall. If a mesmer is keeping up with a Trama Spellbreaker it's going to have to run Sword for ambush, mimic for double blink, illusionary ambush and this assumes it has a target, and jaunt and at that point you're veering way off meta.

    So Spellbreaker has asymmetrically high healing and damage and mobility. Holo has asymmetrically high healing and damage and stealth up time and B tier mobility though rocket boots builds which puts them up to A tier aren't bad at all.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Silinsar.6298Silinsar.6298 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Some synthesis. Emphases in bold.
    My two cents: No matter how you slice it, Holo has a kitten ton of sustain relative to damage output, especially compared to specs that aren't Soulbeast or Spellbreaker. All three specs are remaining vestiges of POF power creep and are due for real "trade offs" and toning down.

    I think you missed my point, I agree Holo, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast has asymmetrically high healing & damage features baked in.

    Another observation, Thief & Mes have asymmetrically high avoidance & in combat mobility.

    You have to look at the PvP tier lists, pick priority, these things primarily to determine what to tune down.

    Tuning down holo, Spellbreaker & Soulbeast sustain, adding tradeoffs, that's cool, but if we're smart and looking at the tier lists, that makes Scourge, FB, and Revenant even more dominant unless they get equally nerfed too.

    Balancing for overall performance & desirability >>> balancing to normalize all the classes damage, sustain, etc.

    I don't really know how you can say Mesmer has asymmetrically high mobility. Trama Spellbreaker and even Dagger Spellbreaker have higher in combat and out of combat mobility than any mesmer build. Mesmer has access to shadowsteps that let them traverse up certain ledges instantly that not ever class can do, but warriors are much faster overall. If a mesmer is keeping up with a Trama Spellbreaker it's going to have to run Sword for ambush, mimic for double blink, illusionary ambush and this assumes it has a target, and jaunt and at that point you're veering way off meta.

    So Spellbreaker has asymmetrically high healing and damage and mobility. Holo has asymmetrically high healing and damage and stealth up time and B tier mobility though rocket boots builds which puts them up to A tier aren't bad at all.

    I'd argue there's a case for differentiating ports and leaps (and even super speed up time) when discussing mobility. Ports not only allow better jukes, they can provide a free disengage or at least a couple of seconds free of pressure (against classes that can't follow up ledges with a port) and save you from melee attacks, wind ups and channels. Instant ports also enable openings / attacks that are harder to react to (enemy out of sight totally, animation harder to spot, or just not knowing to which ally the teleport will go) and don't lock you in a punishable leap animation that prevents dodging. This point also ties into the stealth uptime: a mesmer or thief can stealth and cover ground while stealthed in better bursts of speed, most of the time an engi needs to stealth from further away and walk/leap to the point of engagement which requires the stealth to be longer for this particular usage. If an engi stealthes to disengage you can bet you'll hit him if you lay down AoE where he stealthed, while a mesmer or thief can instantly port to any spot far enough from their last known position to prevent this.
    Ports might not always perform the best in "run from A to B" but they provide much more utility with less counterplay overall. Leaps are much more obvious and easier to deal with in fights.

    I agree holo has some ridiculous numbers, both in damage and in healing, but other classes have a ridiculous number of ports, evades, damage negation, resistance, range damage, support, boon removal, stealth, ...

    And mind that some strengths and drawbacks in all these areas just don't show due to the meta. E.g. I feel much more vulnerable as holo when there's heavy ranged damage around or just any 1-2 offensive builds that focus you while preventing counterpressure. Due to only having Elixir S and dodge as iframes it relies on having the time to perform heal combos or the possibility to force enemies into playing more defensively with it's own attacks. The maps and the game mode also enforce and favor certain playstyles and builds especially when it comes to mobility and range/melee.

    I'm in favor of cutting the extremes (for all professions) a bit and maybe giving something back in the areas they're lacking in. Rough examples: cut holo damage and healing, give it better ways do deal with focus fire (alternatives to slotting Elixir S, like a little better emergency elixir proc or more reliable inventions proc), give mesmer and thief more options to recover health (outside of bunker builds), but reduce the frequency of clones / ports / evades etc. etc.
    Taking the "more than enough" edge off some combat mechanics that came with all the power creep would do the game good in my opinion.

    Bottom line is balance is complicated but despite my subjectivity (which I can't help but have): I think holo has some very high numbers numbers but never was a profession that felt unable to counterplay. It's telegraphed, has limited instant shenanigans, it's melee mode is susceptible to CC (hard & soft), ranged options are there but not overwhelming and can be negated with any kind of projectile hate (no unblockables). (Re-)sustain is strong if you give it time but avoidance is low. Mobility is good but punishable (compared to ports and leaps with iframes attached). It can be devastating in group fights but groups will also quickly drive off or kill a holo in the process. It has ranged and melee capabilities (assuming rifle) but you'll neither want to stay at range vs a dedicated ranged build nor at melee with a dedicated melee build.
    I'd understand some number shaving but I hope they don't gut it. Because it's a fun profession to fight with and against.

    SD Engi / Holo roaming videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/algeyr

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I'd argue there's a case for differentiating ports and leaps (and even super speed up time) when discussing mobility.

    Completely. In-combat mobility quality is all about the fast movement skills with no travel time, and allow you to chain damage uninterrupted as you travel, jaunt, blink, steal.

    In-combat mobility.

    @mortrialus.3062 You'll see right before your post equate in-combat mobility to overall mobility, including no z-axis 2s cast time dashes like Rush, rocket boots, savage leap in the discussion to say Thief and Mesmer don't have disproportionate in-combat mobility. They do have more disproportionate in-combat mobility, it's not even overly problematic, no need to be in denial. It's asymmetrical design.

    Not quite. Also comparing the standard blink and jaunt standard meta to Holos and Spellbreakers running full mobility Rocket Boots and Sword off-meta for his comparison purposes. :joy:

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I'd argue there's a case for differentiating ports and leaps (and even super speed up time) when discussing mobility.

    Completely. In-combat mobility quality is all about the fast movement skills with no travel time, and allow you to chain damage uninterrupted as you travel, jaunt, blink, steal.

    In-combat mobility.

    @mortrialus.3062 You'll see right before your post equate in-combat mobility to overall mobility, including no z-axis 2s cast time dashes like Rush, rocket boots, savage leap in the discussion to say Thief and Mesmer don't have disproportionate in-combat mobility. They do have more disproportionate in-combat mobility, it's not even overly problematic, no need to be in denial. It's asymmetrical design.

    Not quite. Also comparing the standard blink and jaunt standard meta to Holos and Spellbreakers running full mobility Rocket Boots and Sword off-meta for his comparison purposes. :joy:

    Tramadex Spellbreaker is barely off meta. And if that's off meta, the level of twisting to get a mesmer to compete with it, a common variant of spellbreaker you will see is, far more ridiculous and comparatively unviable.

    I actually did take cast times and evades into account when comparing the two.

    For example Mirage thrust takes 1s to complete when you include the .25s window it takes to be able to activate the skill once you activate mirage cloak and has 1 second cooldown between uses that begins when the first leap finishes. This means it takes 4s to do three mirage thrusts and 2.5 seconds will be covered by mirage cloak and distortion.

    Jaunt moves instantly but there is a 1s internal cooldown between uses so it takes 1s to travel 900 units.

    Blink is an instant 1200 units.

    3,900 units over 5 seconds. 2.5 are covered in evade or invulnerable. 1s cooldown between jaunts. And blink is an instant 1200 units. This means about 2.5 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    And if we're only talking meta, Mirage ends there (Zeromis's build). And if we're talking condition mesmer the mobility is significantly less than that as they won't be running sword. For condition mirage it'll be 2700 in somewhere under 2 seconds. That's a fast unstoppable amount of movement in 2 seconds but once they do that their only movement for a while is phase retreat every 8 seconds. They'll have spent everything.

    Flipping into rampage has a 1s activation time. Dash has a 0.75s activation time, Seismic Leap has a 0.75 activation time. Which means it takes a warrior 2.5s to travel 1600 units with Rampage if they use it for mobility, like disengaging from a fight. They are covered by pulsing stab while in rampage so evade frames and getting interrupted are less important.

    Bull's Charge has a 1s activation time to travel 900 units and is covered by evade.

    Whirwind Blade is 450 units over 1 second and is covered by evade.

    Rush is 1200 units over 2 seconds and this is the only part not covered by evade or stability.

    4150 units over 6.5 seconds. 3 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    Thats only counting Greatsword and nothing else. So yeah, Power GS Mirage and Spellbreaker are similar in speed. Spellbreaker is significantly faster than condition mirage and other commonly used variants of mesmer that aren't using the mirage sword ambush.

    A mesmer can get out of a few situations more easily than warrior can with Z Axis teleporting. There's no doubt about that. But nothing than is going to 1v1 a meta Spellbreaker is going to be able to prevent the spellbreaker from disengaging and resetting the fight before the kill can be secured unless the spellbreaker misplays and grossly over commit to the fight and no amount of Z axis teleporting will change that.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I'd argue there's a case for differentiating ports and leaps (and even super speed up time) when discussing mobility.

    Completely. In-combat mobility quality is all about the fast movement skills with no travel time, and allow you to chain damage uninterrupted as you travel, jaunt, blink, steal.

    In-combat mobility.

    @mortrialus.3062 You'll see right before your post equate in-combat mobility to overall mobility, including no z-axis 2s cast time dashes like Rush, rocket boots, savage leap in the discussion to say Thief and Mesmer don't have disproportionate in-combat mobility. They do have more disproportionate in-combat mobility, it's not even overly problematic, no need to be in denial. It's asymmetrical design.

    Not quite. Also comparing the standard blink and jaunt standard meta to Holos and Spellbreakers running full mobility Rocket Boots and Sword off-meta for his comparison purposes. :joy:

    Tramadex Spellbreaker is barely off meta. And if that's off meta, the level of twisting to get a mesmer to compete with it, a common variant of spellbreaker you will see is, far more ridiculous and comparatively unviable.

    I actually did take cast times and evades into account when comparing the two.

    For example Mirage thrust takes 1s to complete when you include the .25s window it takes to be able to activate the skill once you activate mirage cloak and has 1 second cooldown between uses that begins when the first leap finishes. This means it takes 4s to do three mirage thrusts and 2.5 seconds will be covered by mirage cloak and distortion.

    Jaunt moves instantly but there is a 1s internal cooldown between uses so it takes 1s to travel 900 units.

    Blink is an instant 1200 units.

    3,900 units over 5 seconds. 2.5 are covered in evade or invulnerable. 1s cooldown between jaunts. And blink is an instant 1200 units. This means about 2.5 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    And if we're only talking meta, Mirage ends there (Zeromis's build). And if we're talking condition mesmer the mobility is significantly less than that as they won't be running sword. For condition mirage it'll be 2700 in somewhere under 2 seconds. That's a fast unstoppable amount of movement in 2 seconds but once they do that their only movement for a while is phase retreat every 8 seconds. They'll have spent everything.

    Flipping into rampage has a 1s activation time. Dash has a 0.75s activation time, Seismic Leap has a 0.75 activation time. Which means it takes a warrior 2.5s to travel 1600 units with Rampage if they use it for mobility, like disengaging from a fight. They are covered by pulsing stab while in rampage so evade frames and getting interrupted are less important.

    Bull's Charge has a 1s activation time to travel 900 units and is covered by evade.

    Whirwind Blade is 450 units over 1 second and is covered by evade.

    Rush is 1200 units over 2 seconds and this is the only part not covered by evade or stability.

    4150 units over 6.5 seconds. 3 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    Thats only counting Greatsword and nothing else. So yeah, Power GS Mirage and Spellbreaker are similar in speed. Spellbreaker is significantly faster than condition mirage and other commonly used variants of mesmer that aren't using the mirage sword ambush.

    A mesmer can get out of a few situations more easily than warrior can with Z Axis teleporting. There's no doubt about that. But nothing than is going to 1v1 a meta Spellbreaker is going to be able to prevent the spellbreaker from disengaging and resetting the fight before the kill can be secured unless the spellbreaker misplays and grossly over commit to the fight and no amount of Z axis teleporting will change that.

    This still just ignores so much about the game, gameplay and combat. I've gotten into this argument with you before about why your comparisons aren't correct, and I see you've backed off on some of that.

    But here are some additions and corrections:

    • Whirlwind is interruptable, and if you run into any interrupting field without stability, it is stopped and you are interrupted.
    • Depending on Warrior build/opponent, rush can be completely countered by condis.
    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility completely ignores the fact that the warrior needs to be IN YOUR FACE to deal any damage (outside of berserker). Mesmer is ranged a ton of the time.
    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility needs to factor in stealth to the equation, which warrior has zero access to. Mesmer can run in one direction, stealth up, blink in the opposite direction, or just play with your brain. This trumps any warrior movement.
    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility HAS to factor in porting to places that make it impossible for a warrior to follow or access easily.

    As you can see, they're literally not worth comparing. You've built up this comparison for reasons akin to "people saw Mes was powerful and it got nerfed a bit. Now everything else should suffer." But it's not a fair or accurate comparison.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @Mbelch.9028 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I'd argue there's a case for differentiating ports and leaps (and even super speed up time) when discussing mobility.

    Completely. In-combat mobility quality is all about the fast movement skills with no travel time, and allow you to chain damage uninterrupted as you travel, jaunt, blink, steal.

    In-combat mobility.

    @mortrialus.3062 You'll see right before your post equate in-combat mobility to overall mobility, including no z-axis 2s cast time dashes like Rush, rocket boots, savage leap in the discussion to say Thief and Mesmer don't have disproportionate in-combat mobility. They do have more disproportionate in-combat mobility, it's not even overly problematic, no need to be in denial. It's asymmetrical design.

    Not quite. Also comparing the standard blink and jaunt standard meta to Holos and Spellbreakers running full mobility Rocket Boots and Sword off-meta for his comparison purposes. :joy:

    Tramadex Spellbreaker is barely off meta. And if that's off meta, the level of twisting to get a mesmer to compete with it, a common variant of spellbreaker you will see is, far more ridiculous and comparatively unviable.

    I actually did take cast times and evades into account when comparing the two.

    For example Mirage thrust takes 1s to complete when you include the .25s window it takes to be able to activate the skill once you activate mirage cloak and has 1 second cooldown between uses that begins when the first leap finishes. This means it takes 4s to do three mirage thrusts and 2.5 seconds will be covered by mirage cloak and distortion.

    Jaunt moves instantly but there is a 1s internal cooldown between uses so it takes 1s to travel 900 units.

    Blink is an instant 1200 units.

    3,900 units over 5 seconds. 2.5 are covered in evade or invulnerable. 1s cooldown between jaunts. And blink is an instant 1200 units. This means about 2.5 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    And if we're only talking meta, Mirage ends there (Zeromis's build). And if we're talking condition mesmer the mobility is significantly less than that as they won't be running sword. For condition mirage it'll be 2700 in somewhere under 2 seconds. That's a fast unstoppable amount of movement in 2 seconds but once they do that their only movement for a while is phase retreat every 8 seconds. They'll have spent everything.

    Flipping into rampage has a 1s activation time. Dash has a 0.75s activation time, Seismic Leap has a 0.75 activation time. Which means it takes a warrior 2.5s to travel 1600 units with Rampage if they use it for mobility, like disengaging from a fight. They are covered by pulsing stab while in rampage so evade frames and getting interrupted are less important.

    Bull's Charge has a 1s activation time to travel 900 units and is covered by evade.

    Whirwind Blade is 450 units over 1 second and is covered by evade.

    Rush is 1200 units over 2 seconds and this is the only part not covered by evade or stability.

    4150 units over 6.5 seconds. 3 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    Thats only counting Greatsword and nothing else. So yeah, Power GS Mirage and Spellbreaker are similar in speed. Spellbreaker is significantly faster than condition mirage and other commonly used variants of mesmer that aren't using the mirage sword ambush.

    A mesmer can get out of a few situations more easily than warrior can with Z Axis teleporting. There's no doubt about that. But nothing than is going to 1v1 a meta Spellbreaker is going to be able to prevent the spellbreaker from disengaging and resetting the fight before the kill can be secured unless the spellbreaker misplays and grossly over commit to the fight and no amount of Z axis teleporting will change that.

    This still just ignores so much about the game, gameplay and combat. I've gotten into this argument with you before about why your comparisons aren't correct, and I see you've backed off on some of that.
    But here are some additions and corrections:

    • Whirlwind is interruptable, and if you run into any interrupting field without stability, it is stopped and you are interrupted.

    Okay fair. Mirage Cloak and blur are also interruptable by things like an interrupting field and static aura. This is irrelevant in this comparison except for distortion.

    • Depending on Warrior build/opponent, rush can be completely countered by condis.

    I don't see how rush in particular is countered by conditions. Chilled, and crippled do not counter the movement bonus. Movement skills always travel the same distance regardless of swiftness or movement impairing conditions.

    Rampage prevents you from accessing your condition cleanses, but that's a minor concern when you're speeding away from your opponent unless you literally rush into a fight against a condition class and are unwilling to leave rampage to access your utilities like Shake it Off or Signet of Stamina.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility completely ignores the fact that the warrior needs to be IN YOUR FACE to deal any damage (outside of berserker). Mesmer is ranged a ton of the time.

    This ignores the fact that mesmer literally can't melee any build for more than a few seconds and survive. It's a give and take. Yes warrior needs to be on the upper end of mobility to do damage and stick to targets. But there is also the omnipresent pressure of node ownership that forces most 1v1 specs to play a dangerous game of trying to mostly kite a warrior around a usually 260 unit radius circle.

    And here is the thing, back before the physical update and rampage giving warriors access to 10k crits, most warriors used to run Discipline+Defense+Spellbreaker. And for utilities it would be Endure Pain+Featherfoot Grace or Berserker Stance+Balance Stance. Even with only those traitlines and utilities Spellbreakers were one of the only builds that could consistently threaten a condition mirage off a node and result in a perpetual stallout without just being practically immune to condition damage the way scrapper is.

    Now a lot of other stuff has happened. Notably Full Counter's damage getting gutted (Which I personally very much disagree with and advocate a massive unnerfing situation), but good spellbreakers were very much still able to stick to targets and perpetually stall out nodes against condition mirages and this is condition mirage at it's absolute height and the tools that let spellbreaker stall out that match up haven't been even slightly nerfed but have since been buffed since then.

    And despite not running rampage, despite not running bull's charge, despite always running dagger over sword, they were still not only viable with only that level of movement speed, but absolutely top tier. What changed was Peak Performance granting a 10% damage modifier.

    It wasn't defense warrior getting nerfed because the nerfs towards Defy Pain and Rousing Resilience were milquetoast, but the introduction of peak performance, which made Bull's Charge a no brainer in addition to halving the cooldown of rampage that made strength spellbreaker a master of damage, offense, and mobility.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility needs to factor in stealth to the equation, which warrior has zero access to. Mesmer can run in one direction, stealth up, blink in the opposite direction, or just play with your brain. This trumps any warrior movement.

    2 seconds of stealth from Signet of Midnight or 2+3 seconds of stealth from Signet of Midnight plus The Prestige do not counter the escape potential of 2000+ more units of movement for warrior.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility HAS to factor in porting to places that make it impossible for a warrior to follow or access easily.

    Agreed. But how much is the 2 second jumping puzzle on keep worth that the mesmer blinked up? Two seconds. How much is the wall that lets you jump up to the second layer of henge really worth especially since the jumping puzzle itself gives you cover?

    In absolutely pure open terrain where contesting nodes is never an omnipresent factor a lot of things will beat warrior.

    Freaking Fresh Air Weaver will beat warrior practically every time.

    But that's not the game mode we're in and not what the win condition is based around.

    As you can see, they're literally not worth comparing.

    I a 1v1 build's ability to disengage, resustain, and then reengage before the enemy can cap the node is ALWAYS worth comparing.

    You've built up this comparison for reasons akin to "people saw Mes was powerful and it got nerfed a bit. Now everything else should suffer." But it's not a fair or accurate comparison.

    I think of myself as more of a Dr. Doom type of figure than a Tetsuo type.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

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