WvW from day one was always marketed as a form of PvPvE, so why do you all hate having better NPC? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

WvW from day one was always marketed as a form of PvPvE, so why do you all hate having better NPC?

Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

WvW was always, since day one, marketed as a PvPvE gameplay mode which featured NPCs to fight against along side enemy players. So why is the WvW community been so against the improvement of the NPC part of the gameplay in this game mode?

I seen some WvW Community members say they want No NPCs. but isnt that what SPvP is for if you just want PvP?

People been against having Metas in WvW, and Big Powerful Faction Boss Units in WvW, and even against the improvement of the AI of NPC guards in WvW. But why? WvW is PvPvE. Always been.

Comments

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @X T D.6458 said:
    Yea they did that in desert bl and those keep lords are nothing more than cc spam bots. Incredibly annoying to fight, not challenging, just frustrating and not fun whatsoever. I dont go to WvW to fight NPCS, I go for the large scale fights which you cant get in PvP.

    you can get that from 20man SPvP maps. Ask Anet to create a queue for it or make it larger if thats all you want.

    WvW has always been about PvPvE. And NPC were always sold to be a major factor in this game mode.

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:
    Yea they did that in desert bl and those keep lords are nothing more than cc spam bots. Incredibly annoying to fight, not challenging, just frustrating and not fun whatsoever. I dont go to WvW to fight NPCS, I go for the large scale fights which you cant get in PvP.

    you can get that from 20man SPvP maps. Ask Anet to create a queue for it or make it larger if thats all you want.

    WvW has always been about PvPvE. And NPC were always sold to be a major factor in this game mode.

    PvP is not WvW. They are completely separate game modes in functionality and mechanics. The only thing they have in common is people fighting each other, everything else is pretty much done differently. WvW incorporates PvE but that doesnt mean thats the reason people go into it. Do any PvPers go into PvP to fight base lords? They go to fight other players. I like to do it on a much larger scale, and WvW allows me to have much greater flexibility in what I choose to do. The PvE factor serves a purpose, because there has to be some kind of token resistance in objectives, the rest serves as scenery. The mercenary camps in EB should be replaced IMO.

    BG

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    WvW was always, since day one, marketed as a PvPvE gameplay mode which featured NPCs to fight against along side enemy players. So why is the WvW community been so against the improvement of the NPC part of the gameplay in this game mode?

    I seen some WvW Community members say they want No NPCs. but isnt that what SPvP is for if you just want PvP?

    People been against having Metas in WvW, and Big Powerful Faction Boss Units in WvW, and even against the improvement of the AI of NPC guards in WvW. But why? WvW is PvPvE. Always been.

    nothing against it. some players just want easy bags. :/

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    It's probably cognitive dissonance. Desert Borderland seems very popular with players when it's not their home. They must really enjoy fighting the champion npcs there if they keep attacking buildings that are usually empty.

  • WvW from day one was always marketed as a form of PvPvE, so why do you all hate having better NPC?

    As phrased, that's not correct. It's always been marketed as realm vs realm with NPCs. It's never been played nor thought of as NPCs being on equal footing. And over time, ANet has reduced the importance of NPCs altogether.

    It's also not true that everyone hates the NPCs. GvGs, Fight Guilds, and plenty of roamers can't stand NPCs, sure. And yet there are plenty of people who actually preferred realm-vs-environment, as it made for easy karma trains (case in point: the history of EotM).

    Put another way, WvW "purists" prefer no NPCs, traditionalists are okay with some being involved (Keep Lords, if nothing else), and some people would love to see more. Like everything in WvW, there's a mix of views.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • WvW is not a PvPvE mode, it's a large scale (3 servers) PvPvP siege game mode. The NPC lords are just a time gate to allow defense, this is why a keep lord can be soloed, they are not meant to be strong, but waste time for people to try and defend/respond.

    SPvP was meant to be a commercial competitive, highly balanced PvP game mode, they pushed pretty hard to go esports with it and streaming, but it failed pretty bad, and has fallen apart in the last few years due to many poor choices including lack of proper balance.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yea they did that in desert bl and those keep lords are nothing more than cc spam bots.

    Man that sounds like most of the game.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's an entire game mode dedicated to pve to cater to everything you could want in pve, raids, fractals, daily bosses, ktrains, meta trains, exploration, story, dungeons, festivals. What more do you need to add for wvw? more roaming guard groups that get owned by zergs in 2s? harder bosses that just become endurance fights like smc or air lord? grub turned into a raid boss? more cc junk that's an annoyance not "fun" mechanics to fight?

    At the end of the day, most players are in wvw to kill other players, if your only purpose is to avoid players, fight npcs and collect loot, you might as well be doing it in pve, it's way better and more efficient and more rewarding for that. The biggest challenge for pvp players comes from fighting other players.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:

    Yea they did that in desert bl and those keep lords are nothing more than cc spam bots.

    Man that sounds like most of the game.

    That is sadly 100% true...

    BG

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:
    Yea they did that in desert bl and those keep lords are nothing more than cc spam bots. Incredibly annoying to fight, not challenging, just frustrating and not fun whatsoever. I dont go to WvW to fight NPCS, I go for the large scale fights which you cant get in PvP.

    you can get that from 20man SPvP maps. Ask Anet to create a queue for it or make it larger if thats all you want.

    WvW has always been about PvPvE. And NPC were always sold to be a major factor in this game mode.

    I believe it was PvPvE because back then it was a sandbox mode... players had to manually upgrade the map and look after the environment.
    Tower upgrades, NPC upgrades, camp upgrades, protecting yaks because upgrades came out of location supply instead of x amount of deliveries and so on..

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Because npc AI is bad, and because the wvw maps are small. Making boss and npc fights "better" just means adding one or more of: More health, more damage, more cc, more movement. This artificial difficulty does nothing to add to the experience of wvw, which is large scale dynamic fights, not memorizing npc attack patterns.

    Also since wvw maps are so small, defeating a group defending a keep doesnt guarantee enough time to deal with complex npc mechanics and encounters, since respawns are at most a couple minutes away.

    Adding other types of "better" npcs would mean having features like buffing/healing defenders and making attacking/sieges more difficult, which would just encourage attackers to ppt undefended objectives, or hold their fights outside them. There is no incentive to capture a defended keep over an undefended one, so increasing the difficulty would just discourage people from fighting each other.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Death is the great teacher which many never learn from

  • @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

    if the new player played a little bit of pvp, it would work. else, could you imagine a new bie running mace mace hammer roaming around?

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

    if the new player played a little bit of pvp, it would work. else, could you imagine a new bie running mace mace hammer roaming around?

    I mean its more easy tools to make the newbie survive and Discover the class and how to counter a bit
    Just getting wrecked all the time with 5s fights wont learn you to play. And soon learn why mace/mace+Hammer would or wouldnt work

    On the pvp: yeah they need to be willing to learn, playing pvp shows mechanics on a different perspective

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

    if the new player played a little bit of pvp, it would work. else, could you imagine a new bie running mace mace hammer roaming around?

    I mean its more easy tools to make the newbie survive and Discover the class and how to counter a bit
    Just getting wrecked all the time with 5s fights wont learn you to play. And soon learn why mace/mace+Hammer would or wouldnt work

    On the pvp: yeah they need to be willing to learn, playing pvp shows mechanics on a different perspective

    i suppose i can speak only for my experience. i remember a long time ago when i was with int guild in vabbi, 3 of us went to wvw, and we took a tower; after which we were zerged down by 15 players. we laughed it off and returned to wvw after 3 months. :pensive:

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

    if the new player played a little bit of pvp, it would work. else, could you imagine a new bie running mace mace hammer roaming around?

    I mean its more easy tools to make the newbie survive and Discover the class and how to counter a bit
    Just getting wrecked all the time with 5s fights wont learn you to play. And soon learn why mace/mace+Hammer would or wouldnt work

    On the pvp: yeah they need to be willing to learn, playing pvp shows mechanics on a different perspective

    i suppose i can speak only for my experience. i remember a long time ago when i was with int guild in vabbi, 3 of us went to wvw, and we took a tower; after which we were zerged down by 15 players. we laughed it off and returned to wvw after 3 months. :pensive:

    Im sorry for that experience, it happens in the gamemode since its open world. Some people choose to gank rather then fight squarly, rather Just ignore 3:1 is Both 15v5 as 15v45 and yeah IT happens i guess

  • Assassin X.8573Assassin X.8573 Member ✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    NPCs were never like a faction. They are nothing like the npc faction from AION. That was actually kind of fun and different. These NPCs in wvw are utterly useless. If they randomly raided and took camps towers or keeps then it would add a little bit more degree of difficulty to wvw and strategy, but it would also require defense and increasing the pop cap

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

    if the new player played a little bit of pvp, it would work. else, could you imagine a new bie running mace mace hammer roaming around?

    I mean its more easy tools to make the newbie survive and Discover the class and how to counter a bit
    Just getting wrecked all the time with 5s fights wont learn you to play. And soon learn why mace/mace+Hammer would or wouldnt work

    On the pvp: yeah they need to be willing to learn, playing pvp shows mechanics on a different perspective

    i suppose i can speak only for my experience. i remember a long time ago when i was with int guild in vabbi, 3 of us went to wvw, and we took a tower; after which we were zerged down by 15 players. we laughed it off and returned to wvw after 3 months. :pensive:

    Im sorry for that experience, it happens in the gamemode since its open world. Some people choose to gank rather then fight squarly, rather Just ignore 3:1 is Both 15v5 as 15v45 and yeah IT happens i guess

    I always thought that if I cause enough trouble by myself or in a small group that the other server is forced to send in the zerg, that's a victory no matter whether I survive or not. I like playing outnumbered tho, so there's that.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Gorani.7205Gorani.7205 Member ✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    WvW was always, since day one, marketed as a PvPvE gameplay mode which featured NPCs to fight against along side enemy players. So why is the WvW community been so against the improvement of the NPC part of the gameplay in this game mode?

    I seen some WvW Community members say they want No NPCs. but isnt that what SPvP is for if you just want PvP?

    People been against having Metas in WvW, and Big Powerful Faction Boss Units in WvW, and even against the improvement of the AI of NPC guards in WvW. But why? WvW is PvPvE. Always been.

    All answers, IMHO:

    • The VERY vocal minority on the forums of "fight guilds" is the one to blame for that impression (against NPCs part of gameplay). Due to ANet's lack of a global WvW concept and their tendency to listen to the voices that howl the loudest, this faction the of player base has gotten their will in the very few past changes in WvW (wall/gate nerfs and siege nerfs)
    • "Fight guild" players (those that really want to GvG or do open field fights, excluding the k-train/zerg players that only have fun when they can steam roll something) lack a mechanic in WvW that allows them to fight each other on semi-equal terms (not one side hiding behind walls of ACs or crippled by "NPCs"). The fight guilds are not against NPC driven events, they just fear that their niche will get even smaller than it is now.
    • "people against metas" are those, that have been burned by the early days of Desert BL, when the Laser-Meta pretty much enforced terrible lag on everyone on the map. Those people do not trust metas to be not killers of playability too. Anet has not earned a good reputation with the Laser-Event and has not proven to use tech advancements learned in PVE to transfer those to WvW.
    • "big powerful faction bosses" are feared in WvW for several reasons. Players don't want to have zergs of players just auto attacking things like in PvE world bosses and they also don't want to face over-complicated mechanics from Raids. There will never be a resolution to the problem, because whatever balance you chose for an NPC boss fight, the majority of players will find some criticism.
    • "AI of NPC guards" can only be improved with resources the game type does not have.

    Do NPCs and PvE action/reaction chains have a place in WvW in general? Yes, I think so, but only, when coupled with direct player involvement.
    A bad example: Daily Veteran achievement. This one usually is keeping casual WvW tied to a spot on the map, not caring about a camp nearby, waiting for a thing to re-spawn every 10 minutes.
    A good example: Upgrade workers in towers and keeps, before the introduction of spontaneous auto upgrading. The old works actually walked from a depot to a wall and "used supply" to upgrade the structure. As they spent their "research time" (the time passing from starting the upgrade to finishing upgrade, e.g. better walls) walking between those two spots, you could decrease the time by speeding up the workers with the swiftness boon. The same applied to dollies. This is a "dumb" NPC activity, that can be augmented by player agency. These days everything happens automatically and even better if you have map superiority and a active improvement in the camp (like speedy dollies). This would give WvW players more option to how to play the game catering to both the map tacticians and planners as well as the PvE players who do not want to fight other players (PvP) too often. Small NPC actions (involving Skritt & Centaurs in the BLS, a revised introduction to barriers in DBL - now that every warclaw can tear them down) could be made.

    New NPC locations and actions only come with resources and a global vision for the mode. So far, Anet has not proven to me (personally) they currently have both for WvW .

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

    if the new player played a little bit of pvp, it would work. else, could you imagine a new bie running mace mace hammer roaming around?

    I mean its more easy tools to make the newbie survive and Discover the class and how to counter a bit
    Just getting wrecked all the time with 5s fights wont learn you to play. And soon learn why mace/mace+Hammer would or wouldnt work

    On the pvp: yeah they need to be willing to learn, playing pvp shows mechanics on a different perspective

    i suppose i can speak only for my experience. i remember a long time ago when i was with int guild in vabbi, 3 of us went to wvw, and we took a tower; after which we were zerged down by 15 players. we laughed it off and returned to wvw after 3 months. :pensive:

    Im sorry for that experience, it happens in the gamemode since its open world. Some people choose to gank rather then fight squarly, rather Just ignore 3:1 is Both 15v5 as 15v45 and yeah IT happens i guess

    I always thought that if I cause enough trouble by myself or in a small group that the other server is forced to send in the zerg, that's a victory no matter whether I survive or not. I like playing outnumbered tho, so there's that.

    you had strategy, for us, back then; we were simply curious. :P we didn't know how wvw worked. had a lot of trial and error to get where i am now and a lot of good mentors from guildmates to other guilds.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Garrus.7403Garrus.7403 Member ✭✭✭

    More or stronger NPCs is the best way to drive another nail in the coffin that is wvw.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    Grub Rising

    The Overgrown Grub in EB has enough of your kitten. It has decided that the abuse of the Eternal Battlegrounds by K-trainers must stop and has taken action. Now, the Grub will rise with its army of smaller grubs to periodically assault Stonemist Castle and also all 3 keeps if SMC reaches t3. The Grub also gains that vomit toxin attack from fractals where you vomit in an orange cone in front of you and if you hit an ally in front of you, it spreads to them and so forth, thus punishing players for stacking too closely together. In addition, it will also destroy all siege in one hit. Finally, the Grub does not attack outnumbered players directly.

    Skirtt Mercenaries

    The Skritt have gotten so bored that they will take upon services for you should you get them shinies. At a small cost, you can get skirtt to man your siege because honestly, don't you have something better to do with your life?

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

    if the new player played a little bit of pvp, it would work. else, could you imagine a new bie running mace mace hammer roaming around?

    I mean its more easy tools to make the newbie survive and Discover the class and how to counter a bit
    Just getting wrecked all the time with 5s fights wont learn you to play. And soon learn why mace/mace+Hammer would or wouldnt work

    On the pvp: yeah they need to be willing to learn, playing pvp shows mechanics on a different perspective

    i suppose i can speak only for my experience. i remember a long time ago when i was with int guild in vabbi, 3 of us went to wvw, and we took a tower; after which we were zerged down by 15 players. we laughed it off and returned to wvw after 3 months. :pensive:

    Im sorry for that experience, it happens in the gamemode since its open world. Some people choose to gank rather then fight squarly, rather Just ignore 3:1 is Both 15v5 as 15v45 and yeah IT happens i guess

    I always thought that if I cause enough trouble by myself or in a small group that the other server is forced to send in the zerg, that's a victory no matter whether I survive or not. I like playing outnumbered tho, so there's that.

    you had strategy, for us, back then; we were simply curious. :P we didn't know how wvw worked. had a lot of trial and error to get where i am now and a lot of good mentors from guildmates to other guilds.

    I don't know if it's strategy per se, I just figure if I throw myself at a wall long enough then sooner or later I'll find myself on the other side xD

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    player side.

    as i observe, not many took time to learn the game mechanics, thus, the whining.

    maybe, check out unofficial sources manual? or from dev side, tutorials? i.e. starcraft has basics and achievements if you comply with certain strategies tutorials. maybe in pvp or some tutorial mode, the same can be done in wvw?

    i know not many go forth and read things made by players. except those who are invested and some who are invested in this game, simply want to try and err. but if easily bored or not patient, so much whining.

    I dont understand what you are getting at. WvW was always marketed as large scale PvPvE gameplay. It's not whining to want improvements. From the other side of the token all I have seen is people complain about Balance, Lag, A Lack of updates, and Population of course.

    Many of these are issues that are nearly impossible to fix completely. The game will never be balanced as long as classes are radically different.
    Lag will always be a problem when dealing with a MMO over the Internet across large distances.
    Population always changes with this game mode since that's kind of the point of Open World Pvp which WvW is a confined simulation of. It always going to have unbalanced populations, hence the rise of the popular Instanced PvP in MMOs over the last 15 years. Anet did try here with the server linking but again its never going to be balanced unless they force where players go, similar to a Queue in Starwars Battlefront 2 Capitol Supremacy. But that won't happen for a while because of the outcry of it.

    Then we get to the last one which is Content Updates. But seem like WvW people here are against all forms of content updates. I listed a few examples in the original post. Let's go through some of them in detail.

    ⭕AI Improvements:
    AI improvements will change how NPC react to fighting against Zergs. If they on a Wall and a siege is right there they should mount the siege and attack nearby Zergs. Guards if outnumbered need to run inside and attack with sieges. Third party NPC factions need to use their own unique fighting styles to attack enemy players. Keep lords would change of their combat tactics based on what is being thrown at them from enemy players. Defense in this game tend to not be as big outside the zerg. This gives players additional assistance defending structure until ally zerg can get there for the big defensive battles which I want more of.

    ⭕WvW Meta Events and Powerful Faction Bosses:
    I always been a verbal fan of Old AV from WoW, because it did many things right that never been done since the end of vanilla WoW. I believe large objects and Large powerful Faction Bosses would be a huge improvement to shake up the gameplay and especially with splitting up the zerg. Part of the zerg need to be ready to challenge these Bosses while other part of the zerg continue to push forward on offense. And roamers or individuals will have an objective that they can contribute to the overall meta progress when they eliminate a player and run back a new mat currency to contribute to the objective goal to build an outpost minibase or something. So many ways to do this in a fun exciting manner.

    yes, i dont disagree. what i meant was people who dont like what you ask dont want to bother learning the mechanics

    I would argue that people feel learning the mechanics is boring and mind numbing, which is why it’s not Raids.

    AI is a waste of time. It’s boring and repetitive. That has always been the draw about roaming and PvP: you can always be surprised.

    It’s also why most PvE players won’t have anything to do with WvW. They don’t want to fail. They want to memorize a predictable sequence in order to succeed.

    wvw isnt newbie friendly. ita not like we let newbs live if we see them. :<

    The mechanics of certain classes (warior, ranger and mesmer) are really newbe friendly on roamer class...since the passive traits those classes have and can Carry people to face a more experienced foe

    if the new player played a little bit of pvp, it would work. else, could you imagine a new bie running mace mace hammer roaming around?

    I mean its more easy tools to make the newbie survive and Discover the class and how to counter a bit
    Just getting wrecked all the time with 5s fights wont learn you to play. And soon learn why mace/mace+Hammer would or wouldnt work

    On the pvp: yeah they need to be willing to learn, playing pvp shows mechanics on a different perspective

    i suppose i can speak only for my experience. i remember a long time ago when i was with int guild in vabbi, 3 of us went to wvw, and we took a tower; after which we were zerged down by 15 players. we laughed it off and returned to wvw after 3 months. :pensive:

    Im sorry for that experience, it happens in the gamemode since its open world. Some people choose to gank rather then fight squarly, rather Just ignore 3:1 is Both 15v5 as 15v45 and yeah IT happens i guess

    I always thought that if I cause enough trouble by myself or in a small group that the other server is forced to send in the zerg, that's a victory no matter whether I survive or not. I like playing outnumbered tho, so there's that.

    you had strategy, for us, back then; we were simply curious. :P we didn't know how wvw worked. had a lot of trial and error to get where i am now and a lot of good mentors from guildmates to other guilds.

    I don't know if it's strategy per se, I just figure if I throw myself at a wall long enough then sooner or later I'll find myself on the other side xD

    that is enough. =) for us, we didnt know anything.

    point is. its a different mechanism. unlike now, if i am online, i entertain new players at nsp/ link of nsp.

    all my builds if they join discord, they can copy. and i dont mind if they use it against me.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Grub Rising

    The Overgrown Grub in EB has enough of your kitten. It has decided that the abuse of the Eternal Battlegrounds by K-trainers must stop and has taken action. Now, the Grub will rise with its army of smaller grubs to periodically assault Stonemist Castle and also all 3 keeps if SMC reaches t3. The Grub also gains that vomit toxin attack from fractals where you vomit in an orange cone in front of you and if you hit an ally in front of you, it spreads to them and so forth, thus punishing players for stacking too closely together. In addition, it will also destroy all siege in one hit. Finally, the Grub does not attack outnumbered players directly.

    All hail the mighty grub
    /0/
    \0\
    \0/

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @ArchonWing.9480 said:
    Grub Rising

    The Overgrown Grub in EB has enough of your kitten. It has decided that the abuse of the Eternal Battlegrounds by K-trainers must stop and has taken action. Now, the Grub will rise with its army of smaller grubs to periodically assault Stonemist Castle and also all 3 keeps if SMC reaches t3. The Grub also gains that vomit toxin attack from fractals where you vomit in an orange cone in front of you and if you hit an ally in front of you, it spreads to them and so forth, thus punishing players for stacking too closely together. In addition, it will also destroy all siege in one hit. Finally, the Grub does not attack outnumbered players directly.

    All hail the mighty grub
    /0/
    \0\
    \0/

    anet should make grub x tree tonic. and siege razer tonic or crusher. the ultimate small chars.

    grub / tree skin/dune bike/ dolyak for mounts.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    WvW is not a PvPvE mode, it's a large scale (3 servers) PvPvP siege game mode. The NPC lords are just a time gate to allow defense, this is why a keep lord can be soloed, they are not meant to be strong, but waste time for people to try and defend/respond.

    "World versus World (also known as WvW) is a combination Player versus Player/Player versus Environment game mode where players from three different worlds (which can involve 6+ servers), battle in the Mists." - GW2 Wiki

    While it's not obviously the main focus of WvW, it absolutely IS PvPvE

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Player vs player was listed in front of player vs environment, obviously means wvw is pvp first!
    Case closed!

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Player vs player was listed in front of player vs environment, obviously means wvw is pvp first!
    Case closed!

    PvPvE

    PvP is listed in front of PvPvE as well. your point?

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    scratches head
    says in hushed tone "pvp is listed first."
    scratches head
    hushed tone _"did I say that it wasnt?.."
    _scratches chin
    "wait no I dont think I said that.."
    cough
    "So what was the point of that statement?"

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭

    Problem with npc‘s is they don't have real AI, but just scripts. Due to that they are boring repetitive very fast. And people are in wvw to escape that repetition in pve.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:
    scratches head
    says in hushed tone "pvp is listed first."
    scratches head
    hushed tone _"did I say that it wasnt?.."
    _scratches chin
    "wait no I dont think I said that.."
    cough
    "So what was the point of that statement?"

    Which statement?

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Which statement?

    He didn’t actually quote you. Look for your post to be removed. It most likely means he reported it for being off topic.

    On topic: PvPvE would by definition be player vs player. Thing is, the description of WvW on the website completely disproves the OP statement to begin with. The premise of the OP is completely flawed by definition.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Which statement?

    He didn’t actually quote you. Look for your post to be removed. It most likely means he reported it for being off topic.

    On topic: PvPvE would by definition be player vs player. Thing is, the description of WvW on the website completely disproves the OP statement to begin with. The premise of the OP is completely flawed by definition.

    how? :3

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I know he didn't directly quote me.
    Man I thought it was an obvious and simple joke.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It was.... but a sense of humor is needed

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    Problem with npc‘s is they don't have real AI, but just scripts. Due to that they are boring repetitive very fast. And people are in wvw to escape that repetition in pve.

    you comparing the AI of the NPC now vs what I suggested which is an improvement of the AI.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    After the laser event disaster and PvE players artificially inflating activity levels waiting for the wurm/warg... I don't think adding NPCs or spending dev hours on such things is a good idea.

    Honestly there should be less emphasis on NPCs and more on interesting ways to engage players whether it is capture/hold points , siege and counter siege. Right now it is golems+rams/catas/treb+dune roller , shield gen/ballista against arrowcarts.
    Defenders have mortar, oil, cannon and arrowcart / ballista /treb , the airship bombardment in SMC as well as banners.
    Arenanet briefly tested mobile cannons.

    Camelot Unchained is aiming for "epic siege battles" , BDO has siege and node wars but gearing is inherently unbalanced.

    There's no collision detection and quite a bit of AoE (albeit mostly capped at 5 players) so formations aren't really a part of WvW. NPCs hold things once flipped as well and the use of "marked" makes player scouting a bit obsolete. I always found it odd that once you flip a structure the gates/walls come up along with guards. If that was removed as a weekend event I'd be curious as to the result. I'd also be interested on any change that would penalize lumping 50 people together spamming AoEs , as the ruins and shrines don't do enough to accomplish that.

    The concept of openfield fighting is more akin to deathmatch (which you can do in EoTM: there's an arena there), while sieging is more akin to "capture the flag" (the resource is supply from camps) / Conquest from sPvP or "tower defense" (stronghold in the sPvP format). There's been no outright support for GvG outside of the EoTM arena.

    The moment you start focusing on AI for NPCs and such , you're making a second Silverwastes map.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Player vs Player vs NPC Guards

    The guards do enough already, they are cc spam bots. If you buff them to Zerg levels then you box out small-scale players.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

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