The Elephant in the balance room: How Cheese has evolved to hurt GW2 PvP more than balance. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Elephant in the balance room: How Cheese has evolved to hurt GW2 PvP more than balance.

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Comments

  • I disagree with barrier being "godmode", it's a form of sustain, and more often than not, a bad one.

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭

    It's funny how topics tend to get so many replies irrelevant with the OP. Let me help. This post is about cheese builds and how they annoy/ discourage players.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2019

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:

    To enter Stealth, a Thief must build for it through traits, utilities, and combos.

    Nothing about this is difficult.

    Yes it is.. at least if you want any substantial amount of stealth time. Most of it only barely lasts long enough to try 1 backstab or something.. And if you want to go invis for just a bit longer (often not even long enough to outrun someone - since invis != invul and everyone's just spaming AoE and stuff which ofc still hits - you have to trait into Shadow Arts or something and therefore have to giveup something else extremely critical. As thief your traitlines are pretty much fixed, there are no real alternatives. You basically can't run any thief build without trickery and ditching deadly arts would also be very substantial. The third traitline then is either an elite spec or in case of s/d acrobatics and swapping it out would greatly reduce your utility (besides shadow arts being pretty much useless with s/d since you virtually never stealth)
    It's funny.. thief is one the least stealthy classes nowadays. S/D basically provides no stealth other than a veeeeery occasional Dagger5 (which costs a fuckton of initiative and doesn't do a lot of dmg - its primary use was for D/D into backstab I guess)

    Right, but again, all I've said was that nothing about getting access to stealth or entering stealth is difficult. For Thief, there is absolutely nothing difficult about getting stealth on your bar or going into stealth. Whether or not going into stealth at any given point is "meta" is up for debate (particularly considering how almost no meta Thief build really utilizes it in huge amounts--outside of maybe the Deadeye gimmick--typically opting instead for extra evades and teleports), but what you're basically trying to argue is how just because stealth doesn't operate as a win-button or let you get away from every threat possible, it's "difficult" to use. Seriously, just spare me. That's really just how damaged a lot of this game's playerbase is.

    I wanted to completely agree with you (because apparently I indeed didn't exactly address your issues with stealth with my commentary) - until you got condescending and insulted me (and the playerbase) unnecessarily. I guess I just quote you back on this: That's really just how damaged a lot of this game's playerbase is.
    And your insults continue: v

    @DoomNexus.5324 said:
    Being able to outrun as thief has become magnitudes more difficult. Almost every class has either pretty good in-combat mobility (through teleports, blinks, leaps, charges, what not) or a huge range. Unless you have ez and instant access to LoS you realistically can't outrun ranger or mesmer for example.

    You're basically failing at a map-knowledge level: a "skill" so fundamental and superficial that anyone should have it after playing GW2 for more than a few weeks (or even just after watching a video on some of the gimmick teleport spots among the PvP levels). Know your gimmick teleport spots and terrain through which you can teleport.

    Stop belittling me lol.. "Seriously, just spare me".

    You also can just juke people repeatedly by doing things like getting chased up to that bridge area which borders Temple mid, dropping down from the bridge, and then just Shortbow 5'ing back up to the top of the bridge again from underneath. How is this even difficult?? You have evades to cover yourself while you buy time and reposition for this stuff too.

    Did you just describe how to kite? Because when I'm talking about "outrunning" I mean "catch up with me when I try to disengage because I'm about to die" not kiting.. because I call kiting kiting, you know? And I don't want to reposition when I try to outrun, I want to get away as far and as quickly as I can.
    Don't get me wrong, of course thief has superior possibilities for resetting the fight and disengaging over a lot of other classes but my statement of "outrunning became magnitudes harder" still stands.

    Evading hitscan by teleporting through LoS blocks is far more powerful than trying to outrun hitscan by doing nothing but covering raw distance units; that's not even up for debate. "Get away as far as I can," is not the thought process of something who is actively planning on how to escape an already deteriorated situation; that sort of panicked thinking is most likely just going to get you into an exposed position. There are so many ways to completely shake opponents without really moving much distance at all when you have teleports galore like Thief. All you need is super-basic map knowledge of teleport spots. And how you feel about my choice of words doesn't add any wrinkles to your brain.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @Swagg.9236 said:
    Except the Thief is constantly pressuring un-guarded nodes, and can easily inflict troublesome damage to lone players without putting himself at too much risk.

    NOTICE THIS!!!

    We have gone from the Thief being cheese because Stealth is OP to the Thief being OP because it can pressure empty points and cause "troublesome damage" to isolated targets, and at one point near launch, it could actually kill things!

    This is why Thief players don't take complaints seriously. Honestly, listen to yourselves!

    Yup, Thieves are so special! I'm sure other professions are extremely envious of the abilities to pressure empty points and cause troublesome damage to lone targets!

    I guess I should just give up my slot as a Thief so someone else can have the privilege of playing this ultimate and effortless class! I mean, I must be taking up an exclusive slot, right? Why else wouldn't everybody be playing it? After all, it seems that I've been playing it wrong the whole time!

    Mobility is the most important thing in a conquest format, especially in a game with baseline movement that is as sluggish as what is featured in GW2. A character able to more or less freely cover massive distances is going to put pressure on even things like teamfights happening on the other side of the map just because any team is going to know that if an enemy Thief isn't on screen, then they are going to be losing conquest nodes. I don't get why you're so triggered about this lol.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dreddo.9865 said:
    It's funny how topics tend to get so many replies irrelevant with the OP. Let me help. This post is about cheese builds and how they annoy/ discourage players.

    It really feels like the Thief class just has no function or identity that would fit into a game designed around risk/reward and well-timed combat. The moment that people start talking about what GW2 would look like if PvP had a higher skill ceiling, we get problems with players who have devoted a lot of time to the specs which break most of the rules.

  • @Swagg.9236 said:
    Mobility is the most important thing in a conquest format, especially in a game with baseline movement that is as sluggish as what is featured in GW2.

    Except Conquest isn't a race. It's all about capturing and defending points through combat. A Thief may be able to consistently get to a certain place faster than others, but unless that place is actually undefended, then mobility is moot. The smaller the map, the less important it is.

    Yes, baseline movement is sluggish for everyone... INCLUDING the Thief. The Thief has access to high mobility that others may not have, but it's not THAT extreme... certainly not enough to consistently flip points if the opposing team builds and operates in a manner to counter it.

    The Thief's mobility advantage just isn't enough to make up for its lack of combat disadvantage. Combat capability is much superior in Conquest the vast majority of time. Combat capability allows you to impose your will on the battlefield. Mobility does not. Mobility requires that the other team makes mistakes, and only allows you opportunities to punish them for it IF the mistakes are bad enough. But again, the Thief is not THAT much faster simply getting from Point A to Point B than several other professions... especially when you factor in the readiness to fight once they arrive at Point B. A Thief using Shortbow 5 is going to be out of gas.

    I keep saying this over and over: the Thief in Conquest is like the Seeker in Quidditch. Except there is no Golden Snitch.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I should pop back into my thread to re-mention that "OP" and "Cheese" are two different concepts. Especially in Conquest.

    Take Rifle+Sword/Pistol Deadeye. Anyone who understands this build knows that played properly, it cannot die 1v1 to anything. BUT it also can't 1v1 on point. It's also a pure cheese build that relies on infinitely resetting the fight via stealth until it gets a favored outcome.

    Problem is, if this build goes up against a good spellbreaker at far node it will take the DE over a minute to kill him. All the while the SB has full control of the point, and can instantly take the point back as soon as he respawns. So while the DE is "Technically" winning the 1v1, in terms of points the spellbreaker is actually generating more for his team. This is one of the many reasons why SB is meta and Rifle DE is just considered "Playable".

  • Best pvp topic so far. Agree on everything.

    Jokaurene

  • aelska.4609aelska.4609 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, congratulations on this very objective analysis. I hope Anet will read this :)

  • @Master Ketsu.4569 good effort, thank you.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    GW2 was destined to go this route. It wasn't hard to see at the beginning though I believe people were in denial.

    The foundational problems with combat are as follows:

    • Evade on skills
    • Immunity
    • Hard CCs: stun and fear
    • Thief initiative design
    • GW2 Mesmer design
    • Lack of cast bars
    • Excessive spam with graphical effects cluttering the screen

    We are 7 years into gw2 life span, nothing has gotten better. Its slowly gotten worse. Its because the game can't get better if the foundation remains the same. The only way we would see real improvement is if Anet nuked GW2 pvp entirely, recycled the assets remake it from the beginning using GW1 as a blue print. Other wise what will continue to happen is the same thing that has been happening from the beginning. More spam, more power, more cheese, less animations it won't stop ever.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    OP missed the CC conditions , the so called cover conditions ha, most of them are the real killer, you manage to clear the burns, confusion and torment but that 1 minute 30 cripple somehow is still on you and guess what you get steamrolled by something or the damage conditions are back on you. The fun part is that they stack on top of each other, hard cc doesn't stack if you are stunned for 3 seconds but someone knocks you down for 1 you are out of the stun, but you can still layer hard cc with "soft" cc the nightmare combo immobilize into stun.

  • "Skills like Elixer U and Dolyak Stance should see a nerf". Dolyak stance has been nerfed to a 40 second cd. That means in a fight it can be used only once. How do you propose to nerf it even more?

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