You can do raids with 0 experience, here s how I did it. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

You can do raids with 0 experience, here s how I did it.

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2019

    @xenon.3264 said:
    It is a game.
    Ever been in a real life meeting? You do what is enjoyable by most of the people if you want most if not everyone to have fun

    If most ppl care about playing easy mode maybe this is the reason why the chose gw2.

    This is not mhw nor darksoul and this is a game I chose for the absence of vertical progression and raids (7 years ago was one of the main point of the game : we do not raid like in wow)

    So the small hardcore community can complain but if most players want something different the only doable thing is a different tier raids like fractals

    True, I agree.

    But here is where I disagree:

    • this means more developer resources on instanced content (I'm fine with that, but do you think a vast majority of the pve playerbase is willing to sacrifice these developer resources in other areas?). If these resources are taken from raids, fine, that is a priority decision from the developers
    • easier raids makes raids not be raids any longer. Essentially this is what is happening now, and we are calling them strikes
    • rewards will be adapted to the easier difficulty, so for all the people who simply want the raid rewards, those will not be available via easier content

    So yes, if it makes sense to introduce easier "raid like" content so more players are willing to participate in it from a developer resource and content perspective: absolutely do. I have my doubts since wht I believe is:

    • many of the players who do not care about raids, are not raiding, which is perfectly fine. These players might be interested in easier instanced content, or not given how we have dungeons and fractals already
    • there is a small subset of players who are not raiding but want the raid rewards, these players will no fit at any point in time since rewards will be scaled to content difficulty
    • there is players actively raiding who enjoy the challenge of raids. These again will probably participate in Strikes as long as they find enjoyment in this easier content.
  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    Raid as content for skilled group can be a solution.

    Anyway about

    Easier raids are not raid anymore

    I agree . Let's accept that raid do not have space in this game like the did not at start as a precise choice and move on.

    No raid was what moved me from wow any single resource spent for raid is against what this game was presented as

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @xenon.3264 said:
    Let's accept that raid do not have space in this game like the did not at start as a precise choice and move on.

    The game started with content advertised and aimed at raiders from other mmorpgs. Content that failed to deliver.

    No raid was what moved me from wow any single resource spent for raid is against what this game was presented as

    It's the opposite. The way the game turned out, a farm fiesta for skill-less players is what goes against what this game was presented as.

  • First, excuse my way of speaking, I'm not a native speaker.

    Eyah, just putting my own experience after reading (almost) the whole thread.
    I've mostly started raid around april 2019, and even if, yes, it's near impossible to join a random party in the LFG, it's completely normal.

    Yes, the requirement for raid is stupid. I often see 300,400 kp... I've seen once 1k kp needed. Uff. (even for the joke, it's maybe a little too much.)
    I personnally hate faking the LI, the same goes for fractal. So what did I do to actually learn ? I've puts some request at the Lion Arch to joins Guild doing training as a DPS.
    Joined 3 guilds like that, 1 doing full clear frequently, another doing mostly "try" (the lead was almost learning them) and the third was forgettable.

    During those 5/6 months i've gone from 10-ish LI to 110. I dont do lot of raids, I even "forgot" to do them for a month at a time but I never had a difficulty finding a party after being on some communities. I dont even talks with them outside of raid, they're just nice enough to play with me when they put a raid recruitement on discord. Yes, you cant raid when YOU want but when the time is fixed but that's the point when you have to put 10 differents peoples in the same party.
    The only "trick" is to DO YOUR WORK. you want to join a raid ? WORK FOR IT. joining a guild is really easy... Really, my only good point is that I'm a correct dps (around 80/90% of the dps of a weaver).
    I cant switch to a support role, I dont have any infusion, I often have the wrong food and I got teleported almost once every try at VG.

    People complaining about the difficulty to join a raid are the kind who just open the LFG, join a party and see themself being kick after 5 minutes because they didn't respond of the message sent by the commander.

    Wont throw rose to all the com', but I found it mentally tiring to lead raids. If you're not with your guildies, you have to babysit 9 peoples, none wanting to play with you and some leaving after 1 fail, just because you failed to throw a bomb at sabetha.

    The whole "you're terrible to kick new player" can be resumed with this point :

    ** If someone refuse to respond to your question : Kick him.**

    And, sadly yes, new players often ignore you or play mute to dodge your suspicion. Sorry to break it to you but we're not child, it dont work. :anguished:

    I rarely see new player being nice and when it happen, a LOT of people try to help them. Specially in gw2 and it's astonishing.
    When I do dungeons (I love ascalon/caudecus) new player often dont talk, dont try to help, dont want to interact with you and I wont complain about it, that's normal they're starting the game (rarely go beyond 3k ap) and doesnt have the full experience of gw2 (both in the community and the gameplay).

    When you do a raid, you should already be able to do T4 fractal "easily". (if you want to at least kill 1 boss) and from what I often see in training and even some raid. some doesnt know what's the gameplay of the class they play. :bleep_bloop:

    ...
    Well, that was a long rent who've gone everywhere but you got the point I think. Maybe.
    _Sorry. :confounded: _

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:
    Let's accept that raid do not have space in this game like the did not at start as a precise choice and move on.

    The game started with content advertised and aimed at raiders from other mmorpgs. Content that failed to deliver.

    No. The game aimed to player from other mobs who were bored to hell of raids and vertical progression.

    No raid was what moved me from wow any single resource spent for raid is against what this game was presented as

    It's the opposite. The way the game turned out, a farm fiesta for skill-less players is what goes against what this game was presented as.

    Farm fiesta? U do not have to farm anything but shiny skin and .... Oh right train for raids. So if we could please remove that stupid gate ppl could enjoy the game again

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lucyller.4658 said:
    When you do a raid, you should already be able to do T4 fractal "easily". (if you want to at least kill 1 boss) and from what I often see in training and even some raid. some doesnt know what's the gameplay of the class they play. :bleep_bloop:

    I can do easily all T4 to 100 but this is stupid.

    Not everyone ca. Do T4 . I'd say most cannot even do T3

    So why cut out those players?

    Let raids wcale on difficult like fractals. Why are you against this? Just your elitist feeling?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @xenon.3264 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:
    Let's accept that raid do not have space in this game like the did not at start as a precise choice and move on.

    The game started with content advertised and aimed at raiders from other mmorpgs. Content that failed to deliver.

    No. The game aimed to player from other mobs who were bored to hell of raids and vertical progression.

    No raid was what moved me from wow any single resource spent for raid is against what this game was presented as

    It's the opposite. The way the game turned out, a farm fiesta for skill-less players is what goes against what this game was presented as.

    Farm fiesta? U do not have to farm anything but shiny skin and .... Oh right train for raids. So if we could please remove that stupid gate ppl could enjoy the game again

    Dungeons where advertised as raid like. So you are slightly off base here.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @xenon.3264 said:

    @Lucyller.4658 said:
    When you do a raid, you should already be able to do T4 fractal "easily". (if you want to at least kill 1 boss) and from what I often see in training and even some raid. some doesnt know what's the gameplay of the class they play. :bleep_bloop:

    I can do easily all T4 to 100 but this is stupid.

    Not everyone ca. Do T4 . I'd say most cannot even do T3

    So why cut out those players?

    Let raids wcale on difficult like fractals. Why are you against this? Just your elitist feeling?

    First off T4 fractals are not hard. In fact, if you took a group of 5 scourges, you could F2 through pretty much all of them. There are cheese builds which negate T4 fractals. Meta comps if played half way well destroy the content. People keep talking about T4 as though being able to press buttons and actually knowing what a classes skills do is an accomplishment. It is not.

    Second, raids were added as most challenging pve content. Here, let me link to a past developer response on this matter:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    Raids were always conceived as content for a niche group of players and that is where they remain currently (and even that failed given how raids are supposed to be organized group content, yet by now even PUG raids do full clears weekly).

    Now the central question at this point in time is: has the niche group of players grown to small? With the followup question of: if yes, what is the correct approach to deal with this problem?

    From a standpoint of all content should be for the masses, raids are not designed nor where they ever designed that way. It's simple: if you are not able and/or willing to raid currently, you are not the target group. Period.

    I've addressed the rewards issue in other threads and in this one too. Players who want the raid rewards but don't want to improve far enough to be able to acquire those rewards are and should not be a major deciding factor for the developers to make changes. The only proper changes from a developer standpoint are:

    • does this content warrant the attention and resoucres it is getting?
    • how can we improve participation in this content without compromising the content?
    • if the content is unsustainable, which changes need to be made in terms of difficulty, access and rewards to get back to a level we are comfortable with?

    At no point should access for all players factor in with niche content.

  • @yann.1946 said:
    Dungeons where advertised as raid like. So you are slightly off base here.

    No, they were advertised as this game's equivalent to raids. Like the gw2 trinity (damage, control, support) was supposed to be this game's equivalent to holy trinity of dps, tank, heal. Notice, how "Equivalent" here doesn't mean "similar". It doesn't even mean being targeted at the same player demographics - dungeons were meant to be hard, but they always kept adding that they were for everyone, not just a small subset of players. Yes, that's a bit contradictory, but that's marketing for you. When the game started, they obviously went with "for everyone", not with "hard", which shows their real intentions for that content.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @xenon.3264 said:
    No. The game aimed to player from other mobs who were bored to hell of raids and vertical progression.

    Let's not twist facts here. Explorable modes for dungeons and the Orr temple events were aimed directly at players that like Raids in other mmorpgs.

    Farm fiesta?

    Farming the easiest content is what the majority of this playerbase is doing while the rest of the game "aimed" at them rots without players,

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:
    No. The game aimed to player from other mobs who were bored to hell of raids and vertical progression.

    Let's not twist facts here. Explorable modes for dungeons and the Orr temple events were aimed directly at players that like Raids in other mmorpgs.

    Is there a source? I’m not saying you’re wrong (or right) but I’m curious

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Dungeons where advertised as raid like. So you are slightly off base here.

    No, they were advertised as this game's equivalent to raids. Like the gw2 trinity (damage, control, support) was supposed to be this game's equivalent to holy trinity of dps, tank, heal. Notice, how "Equivalent" here doesn't mean "similar". It doesn't even mean being targeted at the same player demographics - dungeons were meant to be hard, but they always kept adding that they were for everyone, not just a small subset of players. Yes, that's a bit contradictory, but that's marketing for you. When the game started, they obviously went with "for everyone", not with "hard", which shows their real intentions for that content.

    Sure, If you want to play the semantic game. But it remains that their was supposed to be variant of raidcontent in this game.

    And the combat in this game is designed to reward skillful play.

  • My 2 problems are my laptop and support
    The fps lag make thing more difficult than it should be
    I prefer support but it seem there should only be 2 supports in squad and does it require more skill than dps?

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:
    Let's accept that raid do not have space in this game like the did not at start as a precise choice and move on.

    The game started with content advertised and aimed at raiders from other mmorpgs. Content that failed to deliver.

    No. The game aimed to player from other mobs who were bored to hell of raids and vertical progression.

    No raid was what moved me from wow any single resource spent for raid is against what this game was presented as

    It's the opposite. The way the game turned out, a farm fiesta for skill-less players is what goes against what this game was presented as.

    Farm fiesta? U do not have to farm anything but shiny skin and .... Oh right train for raids. So if we could please remove that stupid gate ppl could enjoy the game again

    Dungeons where advertised as raid like. So you are slightly off base here.

    5 man content is not raid.

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:

    @Lucyller.4658 said:
    When you do a raid, you should already be able to do T4 fractal "easily". (if you want to at least kill 1 boss) and from what I often see in training and even some raid. some doesnt know what's the gameplay of the class they play. :bleep_bloop:

    I can do easily all T4 to 100 but this is stupid.

    Not everyone ca. Do T4 . I'd say most cannot even do T3

    So why cut out those players?

    Let raids wcale on difficult like fractals. Why are you against this? Just your elitist feeling?

    First off T4 fractals are not hard. In fact, if you took a group of 5 scourges, you could F2 through pretty much all of them. There are cheese builds which negate T4 fractals. Meta comps if played half way well destroy the content. People keep talking about T4 as though being able to press buttons and actually knowing what a classes skills do is an accomplishment. It is not.

    Second, raids were added as most challenging pve content. Here, let me link to a past developer response on this matter:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    Raids were always conceived as content for a niche group of players and that is where they remain currently (and even that failed given how raids are supposed to be organized group content, yet by now even PUG raids do full clears weekly).

    Now the central question at this point in time is: has the niche group of players grown to small? With the followup question of: if yes, what is the correct approach to deal with this problem?

    From a standpoint of all content should be for the masses, raids are not designed nor where they ever designed that way. It's simple: if you are not able and/or willing to raid currently, you are not the target group. Period.

    I've addressed the rewards issue in other threads and in this one too. Players who want the raid rewards but don't want to improve far enough to be able to acquire those rewards are and should not be a major deciding factor for the developers to make changes. The only proper changes from a developer standpoint are:

    • does this content warrant the attention and resoucres it is getting?
    • how can we improve participation in this content without compromising the content?
    • if the content is unsustainable, which changes need to be made in terms of difficulty, access and rewards to get back to a level we are comfortable with?

    At no point should access for all players factor in with niche content.

    Ok not the target but since it seems not enough people do it they had to reduce the number of developers dedicated to them and now the change to strikes

    I think they should reduce to 5 men content so that it will be easier to find group and reduce difficulty in tier to let everyone experience the content

    Arah explorable was the endgame ages ago but u can still create a group and try

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is what Mike Z said in a recent interview regarding raid difficulty.

    Is there room for a ‘story’ difficulty in raids and other high-end content?

    MZ: There is. There’s a constant, constant tug. Do we go build new raids for the raid group, or do we pull somebody to go make the old raids easier? The Bastion of the Penitent is one that we get a lot of comments on, because it’s the Saul D’Alessio story and the mursaat. It’s a very powerful, moving story, and it was very self-contained to that raid. So unless you’re a raider, you never see it.

    I would not rule it out. The thing that we need to be careful about is how we manage that expectation. Because if we go back and release ‘story mode’ for an individual raid, that is taking time away from other things like being able to build additional raid content for the raiders. We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.

  • @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Dungeons where advertised as raid like. So you are slightly off base here.

    No, they were advertised as this game's equivalent to raids. Like the gw2 trinity (damage, control, support) was supposed to be this game's equivalent to holy trinity of dps, tank, heal. Notice, how "Equivalent" here doesn't mean "similar". It doesn't even mean being targeted at the same player demographics - dungeons were meant to be hard, but they always kept adding that they were for everyone, not just a small subset of players. Yes, that's a bit contradictory, but that's marketing for you. When the game started, they obviously went with "for everyone", not with "hard", which shows their real intentions for that content.

    Sure, If you want to play the semantic game. But it remains that their was supposed to be variant of raidcontent in this game.

    Was it? Or perhaps you were reading way too much from one single statement, without bothering to remember the whole context?

    Besides, "raidcontent" is a very wide bag. It can contain WoW's Mythic difficulty tier, but it also contains things like LFR, or FF XIV's story mode. It was very clear from the beginning, that if GW2's Dungeons were to be an equivalent of raids, it would be an equivalent of the latter modes, not the former ones. The dev reassurances that they meant for them to be something that could be done by everyone should have been a big hint here.

    And the combat in this game is designed to reward skillful play.

    Dungeons definitely rewarded skillful play - by completion times. A skillful team could do AC path in less than 10 minutes, while an average pug would take half an hour. Notice though, that both groups were still supposed to complete it (and they did). Again, this should tell you something about what type of "raids" dungeons might have been a reflection of.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @xenon.3264 said:
    5 man content is not raid.

    The definition of a raid or raiding as an activity has nothing to with a set number of players. It can be 1 but also infinite.

    Ok not the target but since it seems not enough people do it they had to reduce the number of developers dedicated to them and now the change to strikes

    There's not such a statement that they reduced the number of developers of raids & fractals. And as well none of the fact that they change their direction from raids to strike missions. From what is known strike missions are a plus, an addition. Namely for the more casual player to have some interesting & replayable content because let's face it: In the long run living story is keeping players in the game just for 1-2 weeks and then you're done with the new map and the game heavily lacks content. Almost since years it's the same thing, a ls episode is being released, there is a new map, players are playing story, explore the map, playing the meta several times and then they're done. Achievement hunters - not a big majority - will stay longer and if the map has a good potential for easy gold per hour it'll turn out a farming map for the "insane" crowd which will result in another, previous farming map being less grinded.
    Average Joe isn't pleased with that. He is getting some free content every 3-4 months, yeah and he will consume it especially due to the reason that it is free of cost. But if this content doesn't keep him in the game he won't spend money at all and in the long run Anet cannot maintain this game. It's just not profitable that way, that's business and what cost a lot of employees their job at the beginning of this year.

    Arah explorable was the endgame ages ago but u can still create a group and try

    Lots of players still can't get through Arah P1-P4 although we have a huge amount of power creep. I'm regularly helping groups through otherwise they would be lost and as in the past not being able to kill Lupicus. Not to mention other bosses/mechanics on the way.

  • @maddoctor.2738
    They later explained on the beta forums (because people asked - i have asked as well), that they didn't really mean the dungeons will be only for a small subset of the community, only that they will be harder than the open world events and the story mode, and they will require some preparation.

    I don't remember the exact wording and i can't give you the quote, unfortunately. I have tried to look for it for the last few years, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like the stuff got archived in any way. It is possible my memory is faulty, but i don't think so - i was quite concerned about this matter then, and i kept asking until i saw few answers that satisfied me. And I am 100% certain that the answers that you would have liked would not have satisfied me at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    @maddoctor.2738
    They later explained on the beta forums (because people asked - i have asked as well), that they didn't really mean the dungeons will be only for a small subset of the community, only that they will be harder than the open world events and the story mode, and they will require some preparation.

    Does it matter? The game was sold and marketed to include content for specific demographic of Raiders and Ascalonian Catacombs back in the beta was considered harder than a lot of Raids in WoW. Yes you could death-rush it, but that wasn't in any way fun or enjoyable.

    I was there and remember the outrage towards the extreme difficulty of AC, and I was there on release to see the comments about the difficulty of explorable dungeons. Guild Wars 2 reviews of the time also confirm that dungeons were really really hard. I was there when a guild broke up because they couldn't kill Giganticus Lupicus and I'm sure the vast majority of casual players still struggle with that fight even after all the power creep. That and Simin were the best fights in the vanilla game.

    Also, I was there reading a vast amount of posts, asking for an EASIER MODE for dungeons, something that never actually happened.
    In the end that "preparation" and "coordination" that dungeons required boiled down to "stack and use full damage gear", and a few well placed reflect skills.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    You forget that the initial posts were due to people doing dungeons at their advertised level, in a mix of blue and green random gear. As soon as people started doing them with exotic-geared level 80's, complains practically stopped.

    AC done by level 35 characters in greens are still quite hard for an average player.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You forget that the initial posts were due to people doing dungeons at their advertised level, in a mix of blue and green random gear. As soon as people started doing them with exotic-geared level 80's, complains practically stopped.

    AC done by level 35 characters in greens are still quite hard for an average player.

    No the complaints did not stop once they got fully geared with exotics and at level 80. There are posts asking for easy modes for dungeons way after the release of the game. And besides, Arah, Honor of the Waves and Crucible of Eternity were always level 80 content, still got complaints for those. It wasn't gear that allowed players to beat dungeons, it was tactics, the bland and boring, stack in a corner, stack might, damage fast, kill, rinse repeat. It was horrible that the most efficient tactic in the game, was also the dumbest.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You forget that the initial posts were due to people doing dungeons at their advertised level, in a mix of blue and green random gear. As soon as people started doing them with exotic-geared level 80's, complains practically stopped.

    AC done by level 35 characters in greens are still quite hard for an average player.

    No the complaints did not stop once they got fully geared with exotics and at level 80. There are posts asking for easy modes for dungeons way after the release of the game. And besides, Arah, Honor of the Waves and Crucible of Eternity were always level 80 content, still got complaints for those. It wasn't gear that allowed players to beat dungeons, it was tactics, the bland and boring, stack in a corner, stack might, damage fast, kill, rinse repeat. It was horrible that the most efficient tactic in the game, was also the dumbest.

    They were also made significantly easier to compensate for the "no ressing in combat" changes. I remember doing Subject Alpha before and after that patch, and it was a completely different experience.

    (also, the best noob strategy for Lupicus, one that was very safe with high success rate? Just range him from safe distance, ressing when necessary. Stacking was a guaranteed wipe for 90% of the pug groups. Most Arah horror stories i saw was from grups that read a guide and didn't realize the guides assumed certain skill and organization level. Pugs that didn't read those guides had it actually better. Even if some paths could take up to 3 hours)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You forget that the initial posts were due to people doing dungeons at their advertised level, in a mix of blue and green random gear. As soon as people started doing them with exotic-geared level 80's, complains practically stopped.

    AC done by level 35 characters in greens are still quite hard for an average player.

    No the complaints did not stop once they got fully geared with exotics and at level 80. There are posts asking for easy modes for dungeons way after the release of the game. And besides, Arah, Honor of the Waves and Crucible of Eternity were always level 80 content, still got complaints for those. It wasn't gear that allowed players to beat dungeons, it was tactics, the bland and boring, stack in a corner, stack might, damage fast, kill, rinse repeat. It was horrible that the most efficient tactic in the game, was also the dumbest.

    They were also made significantly easier to compensate for the "no ressing in combat" changes. I remember doing Subject Alpha before and after that patch, and it was a completely different experience.

    Revive in combat is still possible, what was removed was the ability to use a waypoint when dead, without the requirement for the entire team to be also be dead. The changes to the boss mechanics were mostly minor tweaks, and focused on the story part of the dungeons. While Subject Alpha's health had minor reduction, so maybe you simply got better at the game instead of that minor health reduction to be responsible for the massive difficulty reduction. Also, the update happened about 5 months after release (the update in question was on January 29th, 2013) which questions the entire idea of the intended audience of the dungeons.

    Edit: I wouldn't call some minor tweaks "significantly easier".

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    (also, the best noob strategy for Lupicus, one that was very safe with high success rate? Just range him from safe distance, ressing when necessary. Stacking was a guaranteed wipe for 90% of the pug groups. Most Arah horror stories i saw was from grups that read a guide and didn't realize the guides assumed certain skill and organization level. Pugs that didn't read those guides had it actually better. Even if some paths could take up to 3 hours)

    Filter bubble.
    I was there. From the start. Every single day. Ranging was the "safe" option but even that people couldn't handle before HoT. Arah had an average of 2-3 lfgs and was rarely run by non-zerker groups. Most of the time I ended up soloing or duoing him with a friend. In addition in lots of those groups broke apart even before the first boss because players were dying left and right due to trash mobs. They were unable to skip but also unable to beat them or even survive more than 2 attacks while I/we was/were still standing in zerker gear.
    And I also remember (post dungeon path!) the "every-day-catastrophes" in AC path 2 outside of zerker groups because casual players were not familiar with the ghost buster mechanic at all. P1 was also a gamble because lots of players were unable to kill the burrows at a decent pace without zerker exotics and knowledge of their classes. P3 was the only safe bet because there was literally no threat. Even Colossus Rumblus, who is a bigger danger today due to stability changes and some shenanigans they did with Warmaster Grast, was no problem at all because back in the days you could stack for hours in the famous corner on the right.
    A big thing as well was SE p1 if you had guards geared in heavy defensive stuff but actually no use of reflects. That was a highlight and a total mirror image of the majority of the GW2 community (as well as bearbow ranger shooting enemies into oblivion of course).

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:
    No. The game aimed to player from other mobs who were bored to hell of raids and vertical progression.

    Let's not twist facts here. Explorable modes for dungeons and the Orr temple events were aimed directly at players that like Raids in other mmorpgs.

    Is there a source? I’m not saying you’re wrong (or right) but I’m curious

    Here you go:
    http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1223876p1.html

    "The 'explorable' dungeon modes are definitely for the more hardcore crowd,"
    These explorable dungeons are meant to attract the crowd that would normally be raiding in other MMOs.

    It's a bit clear that explorable modes of dungeons were aimed at the demographic/crowd of Raiders, no double meanings there or that they were for everyone or anything like that. They were for the Hardcore crowd and for those that are normally raiding in other MMOs. Meaning the game was attracting RAIDERS

    The part

    also noting that the world bosses outside the dungeons serve the same purpose

    Is also interesting

    Also, for some months after release the dungeons of Guild Wars 2 were compared to WoW raids in difficulty. Even major reviews were reporting that the dungeons were really hard. Of course the players (and the developers) were using a brand new combat system and we were all newbies. Once we got experienced and found the "stack in a corner" meta they all became easy, but for a time explorable dungeons were for the hardcore crowd and that's the exact demographic they were aimed at.

    Thank you for finding that link.

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:
    5 man content is not raid.

    The definition of a raid or raiding as an activity has nothing to with a set number of players. It can be 1 but also infinite.

    definition of raid is "number is greater than normal party". dot

    that is the only difference. if they would reduce to 5 men content it wold be ok for me

    Ok not the target but since it seems not enough people do it they had to reduce the number of developers dedicated to them and now the change to strikes

    There's not such a statement that they reduced the number of developers of raids & fractals. And as well none of the fact that they change their direction from raids to strike missions. From what is known strike missions are a plus, an addition. Namely for the more casual player to have some interesting & replayable content because let's face it: In the long run living story is keeping players in the game just for 1-2 weeks and then you're done with the new map and the game heavily lacks content. Almost since years it's the same thing, a ls episode is being released, there is a new map, players are playing story, explore the map, playing the meta several times and then they're done. Achievement hunters - not a big majority - will stay longer and if the map has a good potential for easy gold per hour it'll turn out a farming map for the "insane" crowd which will result in another, previous farming map being less grinded.

    Average Joe isn't pleased with that. He is getting some free content every 3-4 months, yeah and he will consume it especially due to the reason that it is free of cost. But if this content doesn't keep him in the game he won't spend money at all and in the long run Anet cannot maintain this game. It's just not profitable that way, that's business and what cost a lot of employees their job at the beginning of this year.

    you have a strange idea of casual and even more on who really spend money. a casual would be more probably the one who spend real money cause he has no time to farm

    Arah explorable was the endgame ages ago but u can still create a group and try

    Lots of players still can't get through Arah P1-P4 although we have a huge amount of power creep. I'm regularly helping groups through otherwise they would be lost and as in the past not being able to kill Lupicus. Not to mention other bosses/mechanics on the way.

    but it is still doable with avarage joe with any build explaining the mechanics. ops this is not possibile with raids.

    that's the whole point. avarage joe is , MUST be the target

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @xenon.3264 said:
    definition of raid is "number is greater than normal party". dot

    that is the only difference. if they would reduce to 5 men content it wold be ok for me

    No, that's just plain wrong. The definition has nothing to do with player size.

    you have a strange idea of casual and even more on who really spend money. a casual would be more probably the one who spend real money cause he has no time to farm

    Let's make it easy for you: I raised the question: "What is the actual content for a gamer in GW2 at the moment?"
    There would be a broad scope. From content for people who log in a day every week (or less) but "casual" could also mean playing more regularly however not on from an optimized point of view in terms of meta, fractal & raids.
    We don't need content for players that belong to the first group because they still have tons of content to play. It's possible that they'll never ever touch strike missions because they're still far behind their horizon. So, the rest of the folks remain - in my opinion the majority of "casual" players. And here I addressed my previos question: Where is the content for this target group?
    Living Story? Yeah, of course but as I said: 1-2 weeks and they're done with it at best including some hours at the new map and their meta. What's left is achievement hunting and farming gold on maps (a.k.a. grinding) but it's highly debatable if that is a common goal between casual players. I think you would agree here that it's not.
    And here we are, unless you are not a very slow player with very limited time GW2 offers nothing more than that (except you think it's fun to do your 27th 100% map completion which again is more than just "casual") after playing the actual living story episode. Fractal players have their fracs, raiders their raids, PvPers their PvP and WvWers their WvW. I'm not saying these crowds are satisfied - they're all not but there is side- or more content for them.
    In the end this game is lacking more casually PvE content and Anet tries to integrate strike missions against that problem. That's the main reason for this new invention - to keep the more casual crowd playing a.k.a. online in their game. And they made it crystal clear: strike missions are easier to give players a "non-stressful" (source: living world announcement - I just rewatched it to hear the words: "no stress") boss fight with rewards so they would spend their time there. Just think about it. They wouldn't hand out such fights if everything would be fine and enthusiastically replayable for months with the usual ls episodes.

    but it is still doable with avarage joe with any build explaining the mechanics. ops this is not possibile with raids.

    that's the whole point. avarage joe is , MUST be the target

    Raids are doable with explaining the mechanics if you have a proper build and that's the only difference. And that is fine because raids are niche content - they were niche and they'll stay niche. Most of the dungeons were niche content before as well even in the days they were farmed because Average Joe only went into AC & CoF & TA + SE 1. Arah was highly avoided and even explaining mechanics didn't lead to success in every group. As I wrote I was there. On a daily basis. Every day.
    But that's not the key point here. The key point is: strike missions are for Average Joe and that's fine for me. Raids & fractals are not and that is working because lots of players don't even like to play them. Just have a look at the T1 lfg. It's empty and most often used for legendary weapon achievement things. What is not working is the release cadence. Even 2 of my best casual buddies aren't playing any more as well as almost all of my raiding guild. Overall there's too less content for everyone.

    The only thing I hoped was that Anet wakes up and releases more content for everyone. Seems like they are trying but the terrible decisionmaking (beginning with LS1 + firing the dungeon team shortly after game release) in the past and this "we are one big gaming family. let's cuddle."-philosophy was harming the game more than helping and lead us to a downward spiral with the recent layoffs in spring. We haven't seen the end of GW2 that's for sure but I don't think the game or better said: the company can recover and be competitive & economic stable in the near future.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @xenon.3264 said:
    you have a strange idea of casual and even more on who really spend money. a casual would be more probably the one who spend real money cause he has no time to farm

    I think the problem here is that there are two ways to split players using the word casual.
    Casual in the context of what content they want to play
    Casual in the context of not playing enough hours every week or day
    Those can be used at the same time, but have completely different meaning, someone might like easy content and play 20 hours a day. Someone might like easy content and play 1 hour per month. Someone might not like easy content and prefer harder content, but play only a couple hours every week.

    If the players farming the easy farms were the Raiders then the whole argument of "raiders are a minority" would evaporate, because the vast majority of the population is there, farming the easy farms, while the rest of the game suffers greatly by the lack of players. If all those dozens of LFG full squads were the raiders, then there would be zero reason to make easier modes for raids, or offer content outside raiding for the game. This means that those farming, making gold, and never spending any money to buy from the gem store, are actually casuals from the context of what kind of content they play.

  • @Hex.8714 said:
    So quick recap on how to get into raids with 0 experience:
    step 1: get rid of your open world pve build and find a meta raid build that you like on snowcrows website
    step 2: practice the dps rotation on the golem
    step 3: watch videos or guides of raid bosses then join semi exp/ training / non kp groups
    step 4: learn from your failures, as I said it will only take you 2-3 pulls to learn all boss mechanics

    As someone who would like to get into raiding but hasn't I feel like giving my opinion here.
    1. Already a turn-off for me. That already feels incredibly oppressive to get into a part of the community that values potential dps higher than experience/fun. I'm running fresh air s/wh tempest which isn't the top dps build for my class but its not worthless either. However those few potential dps points difference are enough for groups to turn me down disregarding the fact that I've played that build since forever and have been playing ele since the first beta weekend thus beeing very comfortable with my class and likely to not make mistakes. If I were to just copy 'n paste some meta build which may or may not have a few % more potential damage I'll be more likely to make mistakes since I'm not as experienced with that build and will probably not do more damage than with my current build and there are many many many tier 2/3 builds or variants of tier 1/2/3 builds that drop just a few potential dps% but get rejected by the raid community anyway. I really hate that part of the raid community. What is wrong with sacrificing 5-10% dps for some fun and comfort while playing the game? I don't play gw2 to play the way someone else wants me to play the game, I have to carter to other peoples needs at work enough, I don't play games to turn them into chores. Sure, the raid will take 5-10 Minutes longer, so what? I'm not trying to get into a speedrun community, I'm trying to get into a different part of the game with a story that has been locked away from me, a part of tyria which I didn't get to explore yet, with mechanics I have yet to see.
    2. I've practiced the dps rotation of the build I enjoy for years, it may not be the perfect build but its the build I enjoy playing and as far as I can tell its not far off the top tier build's dps, I don't run a dps-meter so I unfortunatly can't drop any numbers here.
    3. I don't intend to become some sort of professional raider, I want to play raids for fun - I want to join a group, experience new content, fail, learn from our fails and progress step by step. who tf enjoys playing games after watching a walkthrough, thats like admitting failure before even having tried. Maybe that attitude comes from having grown up at a time where walkthroughs were sold as seperate booklets and only the most desperate would go out of their way to buy a walkthrough but I really hate having to look up solutions to an obstacle in games - as the Player Character I WANT to fail and overcome problems myself, thats what makes games fun. Looking up solutions isn't fun. Which is why the raid community seems like an incredibly unfun place to be in since everyone seems to be an incredible tryhard with no tolerance whatsoever (if you're part of the raiding community and still agree with me then I'm sorry for generalizing here).
    4. I wish I could but the failure tolerance in the raiding community (from my experience) seems to be 0. I've tried vale guardian 3 times, the first time I started the raid and just picked up a bunch of randoms that wanted to try it among those randoms were a couple raiders that kept telling us what we were doing wrong (unfortunatly in a not-very-nice-way) and kept insulting us every time something didn't go as planned and sure enough they left after just a couple minutes while some of us were still reading the conversation of the npc's. The second run, I joined a group that said newbees welcome but spoiler: newbees weren't welcome there. They asked me about my gear, I told them my gear and they kicked me because I ran superior rune of strength instead of scholar. And the third time I tried it I started it myself again but didn't even get to start - that was shortly after the tempest nerfs and the first guy that joined was nice enough to point that out, and kept pointing it out as well as telling everyone else what was wrong with their builds, needless to say no one was in the mood for raids anymore after that.

    So really my biggest issue with raids isn't the raids which are, from what I can tell, barely harder than fractals which are pretty easy, but rather the community which has no tolerance but will seep into even casual groups and spread toxicity. So the only way for me to get into raiding is probably to find more and more friends in gw2 that aren't raiders already until I can fill a group with them.
    Or find a casual raiding guild, which apparently do exist but haven't found any yet.

    I find it cute how many raiders consider themselves to be better at the game than non-raiders. But really what they're good at is speedrunning a specific part of the game (a very small part of the game). All they did was copy and paste a build that was optimized for that specific purpose and practice a rotation to get through some content as fast as possible. Resulting in a community that has apparently forgotten that raids can actually be played casually as well - there is no need to speedrun raids but that seems to have become the raiding meta.

    tldr: Meta builds are a made-up requirement for raids - every raid is beatable with an organized group of players that know what they are doing as long as you have a well balanced team with a good composition of healers, dps and support/tank that you're comfortable with. But the raiding community turned raids into hardcore speedrunning content.

    /rant over

    As the old worlds fall behind
    Our spirit reaches wide
    With no fear breathing new life
    Awaken from the dark dark slumber

    Wintersun - Awaken from the dark slumber (Spring) - Part II The Awakening

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You keep claiming you had no success with training runs or raids. I'm starting to doubt you've even ever participated in any, and if so, you might have been to set in your ways or resistant to advice. Training guilds don't let people fall through the cracks, most raid guilds accept players with open arms. They do might let people go who are a bad fit though if say the behavior of that person creates issues.

    Here is an easy 1-step varification you can apply to grouping, just ask yourself: why should the other player(group of players) group with me?
    If any of the answers is along the line of: because we will have more fun together, we will overcome a challenge, he knows me, I've helped him in the past, he was looking for someone with my experience (or any attribute which was looked for which you met), etc. Then you are good and the group will likely result in everyone having fun.

    If you answer though is: because I want to and I don't care what they want. Then your group is likely to fail and result in no productive gameplay.

    I honestly have no idea why you think i'm some kind of frothing monster that it absolutely must be my behavior.... based only on your own experiences.

    How am I supposed to "have success with training runs and raids" when no one will let me in? Like... that's literally the problem I'm having, and you're acting like I have a chance to behave badly? I join the discord or whatever, follow their rules and requests, and half the time it's stuff i'd never agree to. I don't make them change their rules for me but I'm not going to go fill out a job application or a personality quiz to play a game. Those days have passed.

    Why should another player group with me? I dunno. I'd hope theyd be open to allowing other people to have fun and play the game, but that's literally why we're here, isn't it? People do fall through the cracks. I did. I refuse to lie to get in a group, I'm not going to fake proofs, I'm not trying to get carried, and you absolutely REFUSE to believe that someone could just have this much bad luck that they keep getting passed or get ignored or get looked over for another player. It must be nice to not have this happen to you.

    I should probably point out that not one of you 'benevolent souls' even thought to offer help, obviously i must be some kind of troll or ill behaved child to have the gall to disagree with the ever philanthropic raiding community. You just want control over who sees content. Period.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @bravoart.5308 said:
    You just want control over who sees content. Period.

    Yeah, of course and that's why there's a "Hey folks, this is how I got into raiding"-Thread on reddit every week.
    Come on dude, there are so many people that used community discords and training guilds and got into raiding. So, why can't you? Are you evaluating correcty and maybe don't try to get into already established groups? Look out for training guilds & groups!

    This is one of those examples I found with a single 1s google search: https://rti.enjin.com/
    I also know some of their players from the past and they definitely do NOT lock you out in such communities.
    Or this one: https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

    So, either you are doing something wrong or your effort is just aweful together with an attitude that isn't helpful for mastering team content.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @bravoart.5308 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You keep claiming you had no success with training runs or raids. I'm starting to doubt you've even ever participated in any, and if so, you might have been to set in your ways or resistant to advice. Training guilds don't let people fall through the cracks, most raid guilds accept players with open arms. They do might let people go who are a bad fit though if say the behavior of that person creates issues.

    Here is an easy 1-step varification you can apply to grouping, just ask yourself: why should the other player(group of players) group with me?
    If any of the answers is along the line of: because we will have more fun together, we will overcome a challenge, he knows me, I've helped him in the past, he was looking for someone with my experience (or any attribute which was looked for which you met), etc. Then you are good and the group will likely result in everyone having fun.

    If you answer though is: because I want to and I don't care what they want. Then your group is likely to fail and result in no productive gameplay.

    I honestly have no idea why you think i'm some kind of frothing monster that it absolutely must be my behavior.... based only on your own experiences.

    How am I supposed to "have success with training runs and raids" when no one will let me in? Like... that's literally the problem I'm having, and you're acting like I have a chance to behave badly? I join the discord or whatever, follow their rules and requests, and half the time it's stuff i'd never agree to. I don't make them change their rules for me but I'm not going to go fill out a job application or a personality quiz to play a game. Those days have passed.

    I don't know you. I don't know what issues you face. I know how you address this topic and how you behave in this thread, that is it. The latter does not paint a picture of someone who is reflective or interested in actually acquiring knowledge.

    I know how raid trainings work and how semi casual up to hardcore guilds work (since I am part of both groups and have been inbetween pretty much every step of the raid process). I know that any person with no social disability or over the top character flaws should have no issues getting into casual raid guilds or groups.

    My semi casual guild regularly posts in map chat and we have walk ins and new players join constantly. Maybe we are the only guild who does this, maybe you are simply joining the wrong discords or guilds, because most of those I am in have absolute minimum requirements, if at all. Maybe you joined a more advanced guild and they have certain setups and registration requirements, I don't know and I don't care (my WvW guild discord certainly this as to ensure people who join are actually on the correct server).

    @bravoart.5308 said:
    Why should another player group with me? I dunno. I'd hope theyd be open to allowing other people to have fun and play the game, but that's literally why we're here, isn't it? People do fall through the cracks. I did. I refuse to lie to get in a group, I'm not going to fake proofs, I'm not trying to get carried, and you absolutely REFUSE to believe that someone could just have this much bad luck that they keep getting passed or get ignored or get looked over for another player. It must be nice to not have this happen to you.

    Yes, I too refuse to believe someone does have this amount of bad luck (though statistically it obviously can and will happen).

    Maybe think more about what you can bring to someone else group, instead of what they bring to you. That is until you are making a group and people want to join you, which in turn means they should consider how they can benefit your group. That's the core of the issue actually, way to many people thinking about what they want without taking into account what other people in the group might want. Raids are a group effort, you either find 9 people who can work with you, or you do not raid.

    @bravoart.5308 said:
    I should probably point out that not one of you 'benevolent souls' even thought to offer help, obviously i must be some kind of troll or ill behaved child to have the gall to disagree with the ever philanthropic raiding community. You just want control over who sees content. Period.

    Honestly, after your tirade against raiders and your very constant blaming of others for your own failures, I wouldn't want you in any of my training runs, and I have offered people on the forums in the past to come practice (which was politely declined by the way the moment it was about what time they could do).

    But it kind of paints a picture. What exactly is ANY ones motivation in this thread to ever invite you to their raid training? This topic is literally filled with:

    • people who have no or near no experience with raiding giving their 2 cents
    • very experienced raiders giving their 2 cents (not all of which are running raid trainings, and those who do certainly won't jump at someone with your attitude)
    • maybe 1 or 2 less experienced raiders who have shared their subjective experience

    You are once again in the wrong place looking for people to group with.

    I mentioned this in another thread, and it still applies. There is 2 types of players who want to raid and are currently not raiding:

    • those who are inexperienced and incompetent
    • those who are inexperienced and competent

    For me personally, if someone fails at finding the correct guild or social circle with all the resources available to them (google, reddit, other people's experience on this issue, guides, etc.), I place them in group 1 and don't bother with them any longer. It is as many people as possible from group 2 that need to get supported and trained for raiding.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Honestly, after your tirade against raiders and your very constant blaming of others for your own failures, I wouldn't want you in any of my training runs, and I have offered people on the forums in the past to come practice (which was politely declined by the way the moment it was about what time they could do).

    How dare I point out that you're doing... exactly what you're doing. Truly so uncouth of me.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    But it kind of paints a picture. What exactly is ANY ones motivation in this thread to ever invite you to their raid training? This topic is literally filled with:

    • people who have no or near no experience with raiding giving their 2 cents
    • very experienced raiders giving their 2 cents (not all of which are running raid trainings, and those who do certainly won't jump at someone with your attitude)
    • maybe 1 or 2 less experienced raiders who have shared their subjective experience

    You are once again in the wrong place looking for people to group with.

    I would like to change that second bullet to read -very experienced raiders who only seem to be capable of blaming people not currently in raiding for not being in raiding.

    My "attitude"? Oh, you mean the fact that I'm unwilling to just let you make vapid excuses as to why it must be my fault, despite -oh- what is it you say here in your post "I don't know you" HMM. I'm not going to let someone just dismiss an actual problem that even the developers have recognized is an issue that is hurting the game, just so you can continue blindly enjoying whatever it is you do.

    I'm not even here to find a group, you're just grasping at straws to find yet another reason as to why I should be excluded while feigning some moral high ground.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I mentioned this in another thread, and it still applies. There is 2 types of players who want to raid and are currently not raiding:

    • those who are inexperienced and incompetent
    • those who are inexperienced and competent

    For me personally, if someone fails at finding the correct guild or social circle with all the resources available to them (google, reddit, other people's experience on this issue, guides, etc.), I place them in group 1 and don't bother with them any longer. It is as many people as possible from group 2 that need to get supported and trained for raiding.

    If you're judging everyone that can't find a group as incompetent, you shouldn't be in charge in the first place. You are part of the problem.

  • @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Yeah, of course and that's why there's a "Hey folks, this is how I got into raiding"-Thread on reddit every week.

    Wow, one confirmed person gets into raiding a week, so impressive. I've tried all those methods, none of them worked. I feel like I've been blacklisted by the old TTT guilds from back when I disagreed that they shouldn't use a personality test to bar entry from people joining their Worm runs.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Come on dude, there are so many people that used community discords and training guilds and got into raiding. So, why can't you? Are you evaluating correcty and maybe don't try to get into already established groups? Look out for training guilds & groups!

    I've followed all directions to the best of my ability, multiple times. I don't know what to say.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    This is one of those examples I found with a single 1s google search: https://rti.enjin.com/
    I also know some of their players from the past and they definitely do NOT lock you out in such communities.
    Or this one: https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

    So, either you are doing something wrong or your effort is just aweful together with an attitude that isn't helpful for mastering team content.

    Well for starters, I'm not EU, so I don't think joining an EU guild is the best start. So let's see that chops off... 75% of all the options I've already seen before that you've suggested again. (Usually at this point people find out I'm NA and then go "Oh, yeah. the raiding scene is poop on NA, I'm sorry.")

    Also can you please stop trying to blame my attitude as if it has anything to do with capability to play a game? I'm perfectly polite and helpful in game, I've been in guilds competing for world first in harder games than this. You simply think I have an attitude problem because I'm disagreeing with the raiding community that seems to have no self-reflection on their actions.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @bravoart.5308 said:
    Wow, one confirmed person gets into raiding a week, so impressive. I've tried all those methods, none of them worked. I feel like I've been blacklisted by the old TTT guilds from back when I disagreed that they shouldn't use a personality test to bar entry from people joining their Worm runs.

    We are talking about the ones who make the effort to open a reddit thread lots of wouldn't do due to various reasons. The fact those threads are there and welcomed by "gratz", "hi there fellow raider", "well done" and more shows that there are more than a couple of people caring and helping each other out a.k.a. a bigger part than elitism and toxicity which is present in all game modes as well and even more if we think about PvP or failing stuff in open world.

    I've followed all directions to the best of my ability, multiple times. I don't know what to say.

    Then maybe you're not made to raid (in GW2).

    Well for starters, I'm not EU, so I don't think joining an EU guild is the best start. So let's see that chops off... 75% of all the options I've already seen before that you've suggested again. (Usually at this point people find out I'm NA and then go "Oh, yeah. the raiding scene is poop on NA, I'm sorry.")

    There were currently (my google search) almost 2k active people online on the single NA discord server at a time where NA is usually sleeping. I doubt that NA is dead. Maybe it's worse there than in EU but far from dead.

    Also can you please stop trying to blame my attitude as if it has anything to do with capability to play a game? I'm perfectly polite and helpful in game, I've been in guilds competing for world first in harder games than this. You simply think I have an attitude problem because I'm disagreeing with the raiding community that seems to have no self-reflection on their actions.

    Yeah dude, but nothing is left but your attitude if you cannot make it into a couple of training runs (2-5, assumed you have enough play time) per week.

    Funnily, we have read this several times now over years now:

    "I've been in guilds competing for world first in harder games."

    If you are really that competent and skilled you'll have the easiest entry barrier than everyone else in this game who hasn't raided (hardcore) before. We can expect that you have 0 issues to learn (easy dps rotations), play the bannerslave or know how to handle a druid or an equivalent heal/support so all you need to find is a group willing to take you. According to your skills even groups with full wing clears of the easier ones would integrate you into their roster asap because I've trained complete raid beginners myself and trained them to constant raiders with at least decent skill. It wouldn't be a big deal for them and actually a very welcomed thing.
    As a veteran raider you should be packed with everything you need to be a successful raider in GW2: Willingness to adapt, skilled enough, social competent to hold schedules and to be nice and helpful to others and frustration tolerance.
    Time to look or make an own post here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/categories/looking-for-guild
    It's very up-to-date and even in the forum of my native language the activity is so high for not having a problem to find a raiding guild within 2 weeks.

    Seriously, if you can't make it into GW2 raiding this part of the game isn't made for you. Period.

  • Lucyller.4658Lucyller.4658 Member
    edited September 16, 2019

    @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

    @Hex.8714 said:

    tldr: Meta builds are a made-up requirement for raids - every raid is beatable with an organized group of players that know what they are doing as long as you have a well balanced team with a good composition of healers, dps and support/tank that you're comfortable with. But the raiding community turned raids into hardcore speedrunning content.

    Sure, but are you saying that if people weren't this selective, each party would found a proper balance, good player knowing both strat AND having a proper build (not meta) and the dps to stick to the actual timer ?

    From what I have seen, without a party dealing at least 15k dps from the 5/7 dps, we cant make any raid-boss fall. In fractal you have all the time you want and no real difficulty exept some rare boss having "special" mechanic. In raid, each boss have a special move-set, animation, some demand special role to make it easier etc...
    I doubt your ranger classic with longbow and soldier stat will make it throught. I doubt your necromant minion master in grieving stats will do much.
    Yes, overplaying the "meta" card isn't effective either, but the meta isn't there for no reason.

    If players werent a minimum "elistist" no raid would be accomplished. (at least from my thought.)

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is that MMO developers refuse to move on from the conservative view that Raids HAVE TO BE HIGHER DIFFICULTY.... Instead of making Raids of both casual like Dungeons and Hardcore like traditional Old School Hardcore WoW Raids.

    Strike Missions is a prime example of this in action. I want 10 man casual dungeons with good mechanics but not Raid difficulty because I don't want to have to rely on dedicated Raid Guilds and the drama that comes with that. I had fun in the recent strike mission just would like better boss fights in general and some dungeon mobs and it's good for me.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem isn't only difficulty; it's the path you have to take to get there. It's simply not a path that casual players in this game are sold on, no matter HOW enticing the end result is.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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