Increase swipe to 900 range (and you're awesome). — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Increase swipe to 900 range (and you're awesome).

The game is a blast and you just keep making it better. Anyway. 600 range is shorter range than all of a daredevils ranged attacks like pistol and short bow. To have swipe be shorter range than a short bow is not intuitive. Having swipe match the range of other skills will be a balanced improvement . While we are on the topic. With all the changes making builds less spammy, I think we should increase the cool down of smokescreen to 40-45 seconds versus the even slighter purposed increase in the upcoming patch.

I really love what you're doing and where things are going with this next balance patch!

<13

Comments

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    a better idea would be reduce it to 150 range and useable with stealth only, since how can someone steal something from far away? they should sneak and steal

  • 600 range class unplayable
    boo hoo

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    immagine asking for thief buffs XD

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nah.

    The channeled blocker buster is worth the range.

    Nothing can stop your swipe.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't mind if they made it cost 6 extra init.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    a better idea would be reduce it to 150 range and useable with stealth only, since how can someone steal something from far away? they should sneak and steal

    Identity theft

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    a better idea would be reduce it to 150 range and useable with stealth only, since how can someone steal something from far away? they should sneak and steal

    And make its so that if you die as a thief, your character gets permanently deleted. Tradeoff for mobility+realism!

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.
  • People when the 600 range nerf hit "kitten why nerf something that isnt broken"
    People when someone asks for the nerf to be reversed "nah thief doesnt deserve buffs, nerf thief more"
    ...

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @WillPaharu.4837 said:
    The game is a blast and you just keep making it better. Anyway. 600 range is shorter range than all of a daredevils ranged attacks like pistol and short bow. To have swipe be shorter range than a short bow is not intuitive. Having swipe match the range of other skills will be a balanced improvement . While we are on the topic. With all the changes making builds less spammy, I think we should increase the cool down of smokescreen to 40-45 seconds versus the even slighter purposed increase in the upcoming patch.

    I really love what you're doing and where things are going with this next balance patch!

    Are you new to the game?

    Swipe replaced steal on daredevil just 9 months ago as a drawback which every elite spec is meant to have to not become a flat upgrade to the core class mechanic. Even though it isn't really a drawback because it has a lower range but is also stronger (unblockable) than steal.

    It won't be reverted.

    Btw.: Dash (the most used and most viable daredevil dodge in the competitive modes) has a travel distance of 450 units. And you have 3 of them and a lot of endurance regeneration utility on daredevil. Now think a little further... how could you compensate the lower range?!

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nah.

    Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
    Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nah.

    Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
    Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.

    It doesnt. Brawlers want to be able to get in as soon as possible, which is what the old Steal was for, while Swipe would be better for cheesy oneshot builds that usually get close enough even without steal. Also interrupting channeled block is meh since you should never waste it on channeled block (instead of literally any good skill that you cant wait for).

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    You're really underestimating the ability to interrupt a defensive rotation or things like Shelter or Aegis that can ruin important opportunities.

    Shelter is not being run currently by any guardian build. It would be the one good target if it were (and if Guardian builds running it were common enough for it to be relevant enough), but its not, so yeah. As for Aegis, Swipe being unblockable actually does literally nothing for that. Because every thief runs Trickery, and in Trickery every thief runs Bountiful Theft, which makes your steal, well, steal 3 boons, which it does before applying damage or any other effects. And the boons stolen are not chosen at random, but rather using a priority list, with 3 boons having the highest priority, meaning that if the target has any of these 3 boons (or all of them), they are guaranteed to be stolen. Aegis is one of those 3 boons. Its always stolen, so unblockable does nothing.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nah.

    Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
    Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nah.

    Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
    Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.

    It doesnt. Brawlers want to be able to get in as soon as possible, which is what the old Steal was for, while Swipe would be better for cheesy oneshot builds that usually get close enough even without steal. Also interrupting channeled block is meh since you should never waste it on channeled block (instead of literally any good skill that you cant wait for).

    Since the Daredevil rework we've seen one degenerate build after another clog up ranked first Condition SD to Staff+Staff to Pistol Whip. Now we're only seeing core thieves again because the Shadow Arts rework and the poison life steal trait allowed for a more degenerate build to exist; perma stealth one shot DP.

    The 5 second cooldown on swipe was not make or break. Thieves just kneejerk rebelled despite the Daredevil rework making the trait line significantly more powerful by compressing traits so you can get everything good in the specialization with out the previous hard choices, and of course unblockable swipe.

    Interesting that you think Condition builds came to be because of the Daredevil rework, rather than Deadly Ambition. And uh, yeah, it came from Deadly Ambition, which was 2 months later, and in those 2 months, Daredevil didnt exist. For that matter, even afterwards, typically the best thief build was core, usually Core S/D. As it was for the years prior, ever since Pulmonary Impact was (apparently literally) overnerfed. Daredevil became even worse after the Swipe change, since steal drastically reduced its power, Daredevil D/P, once the staple thief build, ceased to exist alltogether (though it was also bad due to the previously mentioned overnerf of Pulmonary Impact).

    The 5 second cooldown absolutely was make or break. Why do you think every build you mentioned either came from a buff to a different traitline (condi S/D), or after the Swipe cooldown reduction? Also, there really werent any "previous hard choices" that got freed up. There wouldve been if Pulmonary Impact was still worth building around, but as mentioned before, its not. And again, Swipe being unblockable is completely irrelevant.

    Also, just as a final note, The current D/P build is neither Permastealth, nor is it "oneshot". Unless you want to call 8k damage in an ideal situation on the squishiest enemy a "oneshot". Its a burst build, but thats kinda what thief was once supposed to do.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    That's a great exception to the rule that Thief shouldn't be able to do, but I can already hear the complains about suggesting a fix anyway.

    I use Shelter often as a Guardian because Litany of Wrath is quite overrated compared the other things you can do with 2 seconds block and also with:

    • Litany of Wrath: Increased cooldown from 25 seconds to 30 seconds

    I see even more reasons to use it now, glad I was already getting good at it beforehand.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nah.

    Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
    Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nah.

    Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
    Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.

    It doesnt. Brawlers want to be able to get in as soon as possible, which is what the old Steal was for, while Swipe would be better for cheesy oneshot builds that usually get close enough even without steal. Also interrupting channeled block is meh since you should never waste it on channeled block (instead of literally any good skill that you cant wait for).

    Since the Daredevil rework we've seen one degenerate build after another clog up ranked first Condition SD to Staff+Staff to Pistol Whip. Now we're only seeing core thieves again because the Shadow Arts rework and the poison life steal trait allowed for a more degenerate build to exist; perma stealth one shot DP.

    The 5 second cooldown on swipe was not make or break. Thieves just kneejerk rebelled despite the Daredevil rework making the trait line significantly more powerful by compressing traits so you can get everything good in the specialization with out the previous hard choices, and of course unblockable swipe.

    ^ This, mostly. I agree that some degenerate builds existed, and that people continuing to be upset about swipe range might be mistaken (although out of the gate that range cut was a lot to adjust to.), I disagree about the "everything good is selectable now" bit. There's still some variation in the line and keep in mind the grandmaster is basically giving you your elite mechanic, so some compression was warranted there. Also the condition S/D prevalence was due to Deadly arts fixes that underestimated how quickly thieves could stack poison, not Daredevil.

    Swipe def. isn't a problem though. Especially if you are crazy enough to not run bountiful theft.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Shelter is not being run currently by any guardian build. It would be the one good target if it were (and if Guardian builds running it were common enough for it to be relevant enough), but its not, so yeah. As for Aegis, Swipe being unblockable actually does literally nothing for that. Because every thief runs Trickery, and in Trickery every thief runs Bountiful Theft, which makes your steal, well, steal 3 boons, which it does before applying damage or any other effects. And the boons stolen are not chosen at random, but rather using a priority list, with 3 boons having the highest priority, meaning that if the target has any of these 3 boons (or all of them), they are guaranteed to be stolen. Aegis is one of those 3 boons. Its always stolen, so unblockable does nothing.

    Speaking of.
    I run trickster instead of bountiful theft.
    The above is right. Bountiful theft is better in most situations, but for classes that want to block you to wait for cds. It's really effective. Mes Scepter, Engie shield block, Ranger GS block, Staff herald, and shield stance warrior show up pretty often in the meta.
    Especially if it's warrior/spellbreaker. you slot absorption and, if they don't have retal or swiftness blocking basically means they forfeit all their might.

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    People when the 600 range nerf hit "kitten why nerf something that isnt broken"
    People when someone asks for the nerf to be reversed "nah thief doesnt deserve buffs, nerf thief more"
    ...

    This is of note though. The swipe change is alright. 600 range reduction is reasonable for the unblockable, and the range keeps you from making builds that can blow people up from 1200 units. It doesn't need to be nerfed or buffed.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    It doesnt. Brawlers want to be able to get in as soon as possible, which is what the old Steal was for, while Swipe would be better for cheesy oneshot builds that usually get close enough even without steal. Also interrupting channeled block is meh since you should never waste it on channeled block (instead of literally any good skill that you cant wait for).

    It absolutely does though. And Swipe enhances that.

    You can afford to spend it on channeled block to force a decision under pressure. The cooldown gets partially reset on evade if you run acrobatics(and carry a sword) and I carry pistol offhand, so I can interrupt heals as long as you're not backed by stab or aegis (because still gonna be playing sword pistol after this nerf. Call me a degenerate build player if you wannt~)

    Your opponent having to choose what to do now that their block is reset usually results in them wasting another utility to get you off them.
    you -can- use swipe for oneshot/glass builds, but its better suited for immediately turning off blocks people expect to cover them, especially because with swipe you cant just show up out of nowhere by using terrain to hide yourself, you will almost always need to burn stealth resources to drop on someone.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nah.

    Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
    Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nah.

    Daredevil gains a good portion of evasiveness that doesnt depend on stealth, so the 600 range swipe is tolerable. It pushes them more toward that brawler role thief players have been pining for.
    Especially because it interrupts channeled blocks.

    It doesnt. Brawlers want to be able to get in as soon as possible, which is what the old Steal was for, while Swipe would be better for cheesy oneshot builds that usually get close enough even without steal. Also interrupting channeled block is meh since you should never waste it on channeled block (instead of literally any good skill that you cant wait for).

    Since the Daredevil rework we've seen one degenerate build after another clog up ranked first Condition SD to Staff+Staff to Pistol Whip. Now we're only seeing core thieves again because the Shadow Arts rework and the poison life steal trait allowed for a more degenerate build to exist; perma stealth one shot DP.

    The 5 second cooldown on swipe was not make or break. Thieves just kneejerk rebelled despite the Daredevil rework making the trait line significantly more powerful by compressing traits so you can get everything good in the specialization with out the previous hard choices, and of course unblockable swipe.

    ^ This, mostly. I agree that some degenerate builds existed, and that people continuing to be upset about swipe range might be mistaken (although out of the gate that range cut was a lot to adjust to.), I disagree about the "everything good is selectable now" bit. There's still some variation in the line and keep in mind the grandmaster is basically giving you your elite mechanic, so some compression was warranted there.

    Swipe def. isn't a problem though. Especially if you are crazy enough to not run bountiful theft.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Shelter is not being run currently by any guardian build. It would be the one good target if it were (and if Guardian builds running it were common enough for it to be relevant enough), but its not, so yeah. As for Aegis, Swipe being unblockable actually does literally nothing for that. Because every thief runs Trickery, and in Trickery every thief runs Bountiful Theft, which makes your steal, well, steal 3 boons, which it does before applying damage or any other effects. And the boons stolen are not chosen at random, but rather using a priority list, with 3 boons having the highest priority, meaning that if the target has any of these 3 boons (or all of them), they are guaranteed to be stolen. Aegis is one of those 3 boons. Its always stolen, so unblockable does nothing.

    Speaking of.
    I run trickster instead of bountiful theft.
    The above is right. Bountiful theft is better in most situations, but for classes that want to block you to wait for cds. It's really effective. Mes Scepter, Engie shield block, Ranger GS block, Staff herald, and shield stance warrior show up pretty often in the meta.
    Especially if it's warrior/spellbreaker. you slot absorption and, if they don't have retal or swiftness blocking basically means they forfeit all their might.

    Actually, in those cases is exactly where its a trap. If theyre waiting for cooldowns, that means that those cooldowns are pretty important. So, interrupting their block means that while you reduced the invul time they have to wait for cooldowns by, lets say, 2 seconds, you wasted your only tool of dealing with those upcoming cooldowns. And youre usually not going to be able to kill them in those 2 seconds. They will get their cooldowns, and you will curse yourself for the foolishness of not holding back your swipe for them.

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    People when the 600 range nerf hit "kitten why nerf something that isnt broken"
    People when someone asks for the nerf to be reversed "nah thief doesnt deserve buffs, nerf thief more"
    ...

    This is of note though. The swipe change is alright. 600 range reduction is reasonable for the unblockable, and the range keeps you from making builds that can blow people up from 1200 units. It doesn't need to be nerfed or buffed.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    It doesnt. Brawlers want to be able to get in as soon as possible, which is what the old Steal was for, while Swipe would be better for cheesy oneshot builds that usually get close enough even without steal. Also interrupting channeled block is meh since you should never waste it on channeled block (instead of literally any good skill that you cant wait for).

    It absolutely does though.

    You can afford to spend it on channeled block to force a decision under pressure.. the cooldown gets partially reset on evade if you run acrobatics(and carry a sword) and I carry pistol offhand, so I can interrupt heals as long as you're not backed by stab or aegis (because still gonna be playing sword pistol after this nerf.)

    Your opponent having to choose what to do now that their block is reset usually results in them wasting another utility to get you off them.
    you can use swipe for oneshot builds, but its better suited for immediately turning off blocks people expect to cover them.

    You really cant. Ignoring for a second that there is only one Daredevil build that can even use the trait youre referring to (which came to be half a year later after Swipe was created), it only reduces the cooldown by 25%. Youre still not going to have it ready. And the problem with using headshot for interrupts is that it means a major damage loss, especially if you dont run Pulmonary Impact. And even if you do, since Pulmonary Impact was overnerfed, its still a major damage loss. In fact, you lose more damage from that than you gain from the 2 seconds of block you remove, especially since you have to keep up initiative to even have the option.

    No, it really doesnt. A smart opponent will realise that you just wasted your most powerful tool in the arsenal, and that youre basically shields down. They will go on the counter-offensive, abusing the fact that you wont be able to stop their most powerful cooldowns without putting yourself at a further disadvantage. Swipe is extremely poorly suited for turning off blocks, because its got too long of a cooldown to be able to use it for that and have it up in time for the cooldowns you need to stop. Optimally, steal is used for engaging, or interrupting important cooldowns. Swipe is incapable of doing the former, so its use cases is relegated to the latter. Its a worse steal. Or was, then its cooldown got reduced.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    That's a great exception to the rule that Thief shouldn't be able to do, but I can already hear the complains about suggesting a fix anyway.

    I use Shelter often as a Guardian because Litany of Wrath is quite overrated compared the other things you can do with 2 seconds block and also with:

    • Litany of Wrath: Increased cooldown from 25 seconds to 30 seconds

    I see even more reasons to use it now, glad I was already getting good at it beforehand.

    You mean, Ripping Aegis as priority? No thats not an exception, thats actually the rule. Typically damage dealing abilities with additional effects that rip boons will rip Aegis at high priority. Phantasmal Disenchanter, Dune Cloak and a bunch of others. The only ones that dont rip Aegis as a priority, are the ones that dont rip Aegis at all, which are the ones that are unblockable, like Breaching Strike, Larcenous Strike, Banish Enchantment and Throw Mine.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 It still goes against the purpose of what it's meant to be, it's extremely bad design as the skill already being instant cast is a big but necessary feature, it doesn't need to be that strong.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    You really cant. Ignoring for a second that there is only one Daredevil build that can even use the trait youre referring to (which came to be half a year later after Swipe was created)-

    Don't assume I play meta builds. I don't.

    -it only reduces the cooldown by 25%. You're still not going to have it ready. And the problem with using headshot for interrupts is that it means a major damage loss, especially if you dont run Pulmonary Impact-

    75% of 25 is 18.75. That's faster than most blocks recharge. it also gets another reduction in 10 seconds. I'll have it ready.

    And even if you do, since Pulmonary Impact was overnerfed, its still a major damage loss. In fact, you lose more damage from that than you gain from the 2 seconds of block you remove, especially since you have to keep up initiative to even have the option.

    Pulm. impact was overnerfed, yes. Headshot Thieves were a problem before, so I understand why. Interrupts are for setups, not for doing damage on their own.
    It's also not "two seconds of block" that I'm removing. Not only is that skill going on full recharge, it's also forcing them to pick another option since I'm in their face that isn't "wait for cooldowns or wait to use the skill I get for blocking". Panic selections are really good to force.

    No, it really doesnt. A smart opponent will realise that you just wasted your most powerful tool in the arsenal, and that youre basically shields down. They will go on the counter-offensive, abusing the fact that you wont be able to stop their most powerful cooldowns without putting yourself at a further disadvantage. Swipe is extremely poorly suited for turning off blocks, because its got too long of a cooldown to be able to use it for that and have it up in time for the cooldowns you need to stop. Optimally, steal is used for engaging, or interrupting important cooldowns. Swipe is incapable of doing the former, so its use cases is relegated to the latter. Its a worse steal. Or was, then its cooldown got reduced.

    Like I said, I run sword/pistol. I'm hardly shields down after Swipe.
    I'm not going to ramble too much about builds though. You saw what Sindrener did. You're free to make your own conclusion about that.
    You'd be surprised how much you can lean into brawler.

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 It still goes against the purpose of what it's meant to be, it's extremely bad design as the skill already being instant cast is a big but necessary feature, it doesn't need to be that strong.

    Elaborate. Because:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    That's a great exception to the rule that Thief shouldn't be able to do, but I can already hear the complains about suggesting a fix anyway.

    I use Shelter often as a Guardian because Litany of Wrath is quite overrated compared the other things you can do with 2 seconds block and also with:

    • Litany of Wrath: Increased cooldown from 25 seconds to 30 seconds

    I see even more reasons to use it now, glad I was already getting good at it beforehand.

    Did you see what they're doing to Test of Faith?
    Core Guardians might have a problem running shelter vs Daredevils, but Dragonhunters still hard counter them.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 It still goes against the purpose of what it's meant to be, it's extremely bad design as the skill already being instant cast is a big but necessary feature, it doesn't need to be that strong.

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 It still goes against the purpose of what it's meant to be, it's extremely bad design as the skill already being instant cast is a big but necessary feature, it doesn't need to be that strong.

    Im not sure I understand what you mean. The purpose of what its meant to be is a drawback to the traitline (which is honestly misguided as the traitline itself, and its dodges were the drawback already, but I digress). And it is a drawback. Its a worse steal in pretty much all situations. The unblockable at most makes it a bit less brutal of a drawback (though honestly fails that either way). Steal is always instant cast as well.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132

    No, what I'm saying is that Boontiful Theft shouldn't go through Aegis, Steal is an attack and being an attack, it should be blocked. No where does it say it's unblockable and it's only by finding the anomaly in real time that it makes sense, or the wiki. Be the latter is that people wrote it on the wiki after finding it out. In fact this makes Steal extremely overpowered and should be addressed to force people dealing an attack before stealing because it breaks the rules of the boon description. No wonder why people think Swipe is useless, they were granted too much from the start. That's what oversights do, meanwhile I was the one breaking Aegis before stealing, people had it way easier than I thought, it's disgusting.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132

    No, what I'm saying is that Boontiful Theft shouldn't go through Aegis, Steal is an attack and being an attack, it should be blocked. No where does it say it's unblockable and it's only by finding the anomaly in real time that it makes sense, or the wiki. Be the latter is that people wrote it on the wiki after finding it out. In fact this makes Steal extremely overpowered and should be addressed to force people dealing an attack before stealing because it breaks the rules of the boon description. No wonder why people think Swipe is useless, they were granted too much from the start. That's what oversights do, meanwhile I was the one breaking Aegis before stealing, people had it way easier than I thought, it's disgusting.

    Steal was corrected to do that because Aegis used to block thieves from getting stolen skills/reliable ripping of defensive boons was needed for counterplay to bunkers.

    and should be addressed to force people dealing an attack before stealing because it breaks the rules of the boon description.

    No. Aegis can come up randomly without telegraph. Not every situation allows you to see an aegis before stealing.
    All boon removal(and probably also boon corruption) should ideally prioritize Aegis and protective boons first. We just haven't gotten around to whining about all the other boonrip yet.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    You really cant. Ignoring for a second that there is only one Daredevil build that can even use the trait youre referring to (which came to be half a year later after Swipe was created)-

    Don't assume I play meta builds. I don't.

    Right, I was talking more generally. Since yknow, balance is usually aimed at meta builds, rather than weaker builds.

    -it only reduces the cooldown by 25%. You're still not going to have it ready. And the problem with using headshot for interrupts is that it means a major damage loss, especially if you dont run Pulmonary Impact-

    75% of 25 is 18.75. That's faster than most blocks recharge. it also gets another reduction in 10 seconds. I'll have it ready.

    I said important cooldowns. Not ready for the next block. You shouldnt be using it on blocks anyway. Lets say youre facing a Warrior. You waste your Swipe on their Shield Stance. Or Full Counter (although if Im not mistaken, without Mug you can just steal on their Full Counter either way, so it doesnt really matter). The Warrior is attentive, and realises that now, there is a big window of opportunity where you are shields down, and goes for, lets say, an Arcing Slice. Normally, this is where you would hit the steal button, and interrupt it. Instead, you have to use valuable defenses to avoid it, if you even have them available. It gets worse if they also notice youre low on initiative, and can even safely go for Rampage, in which case you are really screwed.

    And even if you do, since Pulmonary Impact was overnerfed, its still a major damage loss. In fact, you lose more damage from that than you gain from the 2 seconds of block you remove, especially since you have to keep up initiative to even have the option.

    Pulm. impact was overnerfed, yes. Headshot Thieves were a problem before, so I understand why. Interrupts are for setups, not for doing damage on their own.

    Headshot Thieves really werent an issue, they were merely viable, and the only way headshot itself is worth the initiative it costs (if they didnt want interrupts to also be damage, then headshots initiative cost shouldve been reduced drastically alongside the pulm nerf. Lets say, 2 initiative). Besides, Mesmer is still allowed to do major damage while interrupting, so the logic really doesnt hold.

    It's also not "two seconds of block" that I'm removing. Not only is that skill going on full recharge, it's also forcing them to pick another option since I'm in their face that isn't "wait for cooldowns or wait to use the skill I get for blocking". Panic selections are really good to force.

    No, youre really not forcing them to pick another option at all. The only builds that use channeled blocks (builds? I guess I should just say, Warrior, though there is Engineer who Ill get to in a bit) are builds that want to be in your face. And Warriors dont use channeled blocks as an "oh kitten" option, but simply as a way to wait for important cooldowns. So you waste your Swipe to stop their block, and put yourself in Warriors "kill range". Now the Warrior doesnt use another option, but simply turns on you and starts attacking you, and shortly hits you with one of the big skills he was waiting for. While, once again, you curse your error. Now I said Id go over Engineers, so lets do that real quick. There is an Engineer build that does use Shield, which has a channeled block, Static Shield. But you dont use Swipe against that one even more, because you get stunned on the interrupt, and then the Engineer just kills you, or you waste a stunbreak.

    No, it really doesnt. A smart opponent will realise that you just wasted your most powerful tool in the arsenal, and that youre basically shields down. They will go on the counter-offensive, abusing the fact that you wont be able to stop their most powerful cooldowns without putting yourself at a further disadvantage. Swipe is extremely poorly suited for turning off blocks, because its got too long of a cooldown to be able to use it for that and have it up in time for the cooldowns you need to stop. Optimally, steal is used for engaging, or interrupting important cooldowns. Swipe is incapable of doing the former, so its use cases is relegated to the latter. Its a worse steal. Or was, then its cooldown got reduced.

    Like I said, I run sword/pistol. I'm hardly shields down after Swipe.
    I'm not going to ramble too much about builds though. You saw what Sindrener did. You're free to make your own conclusion about that.
    You'd be surprised how much you can lean into brawler.

    Against Warrior? You absolutely are. Granted I guess you wouldnt want to face a Warrior as PW thief anyway, but still.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132

    No, what I'm saying is that Boontiful Theft shouldn't go through Aegis, Steal is an attack and being an attack, it should be blocked. No where does it say it's unblockable and it's only by finding the anomaly in real time that it makes sense, or the wiki. Be the latter is that people wrote it on the wiki after finding it out. In fact this makes Steal extremely overpowered and should be addressed to force people dealing an attack before stealing because it breaks the rules of the boon description. No wonder why people think Swipe is useless, they were granted too much from the start. That's what oversights do, meanwhile I was the one breaking Aegis before stealing, people had it way easier than I thought, it's disgusting.

    Actually steal isnt an attack unless combined with Mug. But, even without that, no, it shouldnt be, because thats the point of boonrips. Boonrips remove the biggest problem boons first, and for each attack, thats different. Steal, like all other power attacks that remove boons that arent unblockable, removes Aegis first. Condi-based attacks that remove boons remove Resistance first. CC ones remove Stability first. And so on. Its an implicit aspect of how boonripping works. And again, unless you suggest nerfing every single boon rip skill, then your idea is a nonstarter. All skills should work the same way with the same text, after all.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132

    No, what I'm saying is that Boontiful Theft shouldn't go through Aegis, Steal is an attack and being an attack, it should be blocked. No where does it say it's unblockable and it's only by finding the anomaly in real time that it makes sense, or the wiki. Be the latter is that people wrote it on the wiki after finding it out. In fact this makes Steal extremely overpowered and should be addressed to force people dealing an attack before stealing because it breaks the rules of the boon description. No wonder why people think Swipe is useless, they were granted too much from the start. That's what oversights do, meanwhile I was the one breaking Aegis before stealing, people had it way easier than I thought, it's disgusting.

    Steal was corrected to do that because Aegis used to block thieves from getting stolen skills/reliable ripping of defensive boons was needed for counterplay to bunkers.

    and should be addressed to force people dealing an attack before stealing because it breaks the rules of the boon description.

    No. Aegis can come up randomly without telegraph. Not every situation allows you to see an aegis before stealing.
    All boon removal(and probably also boon corruption) should ideally prioritize Aegis and protective boons first. We just haven't gotten around to whining about all the other boonrip yet.

    All boon removal actually do already do that. Theyve done that for a long time. The only power-based ones that dont get rid of Aegis are the ones that are unblockable anyway. Condi ones remove Resistance.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I said important cooldowns. Not ready for the next block. You shouldnt be using it on blocks anyway. Lets say youre facing a Warrior. You waste your Swipe on their Shield Stance. Or Full Counter (although if Im not mistaken, without Mug you can just steal on their Full Counter either way, so it doesnt really matter). The Warrior is attentive, and realises that now, there is a big window of opportunity where you are shields down, and goes for, lets say, an Arcing Slice. Normally, this is where you would hit the steal button, and interrupt it. Instead, you have to use valuable defenses to avoid it, if you even have them available. It gets worse if they also notice youre low on initiative, and can even safely go for Rampage, in which case you are really screwed.

    There's other ways to counter rampage.

    Headshot Thieves really werent an issue, they were merely viable, and the only way headshot itself is worth the initiative it costs (if they didnt want interrupts to also be damage, then headshots initiative cost shouldve been reduced drastically alongside the pulm nerf. Lets say, 2 initiative). Besides, Mesmer is still allowed to do major damage while interrupting, so the logic really doesnt hold.

    Mesmers have marginally less interrupt on demand.

    No, youre really not forcing them to pick another option at all. The only builds that use channeled blocks (builds? I guess I should just say, Warrior, though there is Engineer who Ill get to in a bit) are builds that want to be in your face. And Warriors dont use channeled blocks as an "oh kitten" option, but simply as a way to wait for important cooldowns. So you waste your Swipe to stop their block, and put yourself in Warriors "kill range". Now the Warrior doesnt use another option, but simply turns on you and starts attacking you, and shortly hits you with one of the big skills he was waiting for. While, once again, you curse your error. Now I said Id go over Engineers, so lets do that real quick. There is an Engineer build that does use Shield, which has a channeled block, Static Shield. But you dont use Swipe against that one even more, because you get stunned on the interrupt, and then the Engineer just kills you, or you waste a stunbreak.

    I also want to be in the warriors face. A warrior with no block is looking for arcing slice, evisc, and full counter (and bulls charge). I'm constantly putting weakness on the warrior by remaining within striking distance as long as I dodge his major skills.

    No, it really doesnt. A smart opponent will realise that you just wasted your most powerful tool in the arsenal, and that youre basically shields down. They will go on the counter-offensive, abusing the fact that you wont be able to stop their most powerful cooldowns without putting yourself at a further disadvantage. Swipe is extremely poorly suited for turning off blocks, because its got too long of a cooldown to be able to use it for that and have it up in time for the cooldowns you need to stop. Optimally, steal is used for engaging, or interrupting important cooldowns. Swipe is incapable of doing the former, so its use cases is relegated to the latter. Its a worse steal. Or was, then its cooldown got reduced.

    I mean... you're free to think that. Steal is good for engaging and interrupting important cooldowns. We will have to agree to disagree that swipe can't be used aggressively.

    Like I said, I run sword/pistol. I'm hardly shields down after Swipe.
    I'm not going to ramble too much about builds though. You saw what Sindrener did. You're free to make your own conclusion about that.
    You'd be surprised how much you can lean into brawler.

    Against Warrior? You absolutely are. Granted I guess you wouldnt want to face a Warrior as PW thief anyway, but still.

    I'll fight any warrior on PW thief.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    All boon removal actually do already do that. Theyve done that for a long time. The only power-based ones that dont get rid of Aegis are the ones that are unblockable anyway. Condi ones remove Resistance.

    Are...you sure?

    I stand corrected apparently? I'll check on that.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 That's because they all do and they all say "unblockable", simple as that. Steal doesn't and if Swipe has that factor now, it shouldn't be losing it's value because of hidden exceptions like this. Again, terrible design.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 I think that people are too lazy to deal with it and that it's one of the biggest problems with the game regardless, it's not hard to initiate an attack then proceed to the steal, I've done it all this time and have yet to feel like it's underpowered to do so, especially with S/D. In fact it's up to wonder why it's even a thing now with S/D existence, it didn't take long for it to become what it is either. Considering that knowing this, it means any skills that sustain with Aegis just took the middle finger to it all these years, brilliant waste of effort for Guardian F3 which is supposed to mean anything but not for this one skill with hidden exceptions.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    All boon removal actually do already do that. Theyve done that for a long time. The only power-based ones that dont get rid of Aegis are the ones that are unblockable anyway. Condi ones remove Resistance.

    Are...you sure?

    I stand corrected apparently? I'll check on that.

    I have serious doubts about that.
    It is true the ones that dont prioritize aegis are usually unblockable but only because early on there was likely some inconsistency with them ripping aegis or the effect just blocking a skill entirely which warranted the need for the skills to be unblockable. For other on hit effects (which might remove boons) its unclear if the boon removal is applied before the hit which would remove the aegis or if the hit is applied first which would result in you seeing the text "Blocked" text appear instead of a damage number.

    Boon removal priority is a very touchy subject because most sources of info based the different applications of it are usually inconsistent.
    You might say one thing, another player says other wise, a third player disagrees with both of the first two. Until devs make it clear cut how the interactions work its not safe to say that every type of boon removal works the same way I'm a firm believer in the idea that they dont. Especially boon removal that running on core game code vs boon removal that was added after HoT / PoF

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 I think that people are too lazy to deal with it and that it's one of the biggest problems with the game regardless, it's not hard to initiate an attack then proceed to the steal, I've done it all this time and have yet to feel like it's underpowered to do so, especially with S/D. In fact it's up to wonder why it's even a thing now with S/D existence, it didn't take long for it to become what it is either.

    This is like this for good reason.

      1. Guardian doesnt have aegis
      1. You steal to grab (X).
      1. The guardian got aegis when you stole because he has skills that proc aegis instantly.
      1. Your steal is punished

      1. Guardian doesnt have aegis
      1. You steal-backstab
      1. The guardian got aegis when you stole-backstabbed because he has skills that proc aegis instantly
      1. Blocked.

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Considering that knowing this, it means any skills that sustain with Aegis just took the middle finger to it all these years, brilliant waste of effort for Guardian F3 which is supposed to mean anything but not for this one skill with hidden exceptions.

    Even you didn't think about this being overpowered until just now.
    The skill only has those exceptions when bountiful theft is taken.
    It inconveniences one skill on your hotbar.
    Dragonhunters still hard counter thieves .

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @UNOwen.7132 That's because they all do and they all say "unblockable", simple as that. Steal doesn't and if Swipe has that factor now, it shouldn't be losing it's value because of hidden exceptions like this. Again, terrible design.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 I think that people are too lazy to deal with it and that it's one of the biggest problems with the game regardless, it's not hard to initiate an attack then proceed to the steal, I've done it all this time and have yet to feel like it's underpowered to do so, especially with S/D. In fact it's up to wonder why it's even a thing now with S/D existence, it didn't take long for it to become what it is either. Considering that knowing this, it means any skills that sustain with Aegis just took the middle finger to it all these years, brilliant waste of effort for Guardian F3 which is supposed to mean anything but not for this one skill with hidden exceptions.

    No, they dont. Dune cloak rips Aegis as top priority. Its not unblockable. Phantasmal Disenchanter does it, and while it is unblockable now (for some reason), it had already been prioritising Aegis as a boon rip while it hadnt gotten that buff yet. And so on. Likewise, CC ones rip Stab first, condi ones rip Resistance first. Its not a "hidden exception. Its literally the rule.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    I said important cooldowns. Not ready for the next block. You shouldnt be using it on blocks anyway. Lets say youre facing a Warrior. You waste your Swipe on their Shield Stance. Or Full Counter (although if Im not mistaken, without Mug you can just steal on their Full Counter either way, so it doesnt really matter). The Warrior is attentive, and realises that now, there is a big window of opportunity where you are shields down, and goes for, lets say, an Arcing Slice. Normally, this is where you would hit the steal button, and interrupt it. Instead, you have to use valuable defenses to avoid it, if you even have them available. It gets worse if they also notice youre low on initiative, and can even safely go for Rampage, in which case you are really screwed.

    There's other ways to counter rampage.

    Not without gimping yourself by holding back enough initiative to always use a headshot (which still lowers your damage by a lot). Given how little you gained from it, you just lose more than you gain.

    Headshot Thieves really werent an issue, they were merely viable, and the only way headshot itself is worth the initiative it costs (if they didnt want interrupts to also be damage, then headshots initiative cost shouldve been reduced drastically alongside the pulm nerf. Lets say, 2 initiative). Besides, Mesmer is still allowed to do major damage while interrupting, so the logic really doesnt hold.

    Mesmers have marginally less interrupt on demand.

    Surprisingly (or not, depending on how much youve played both classes), they actually have more. Thief has one interrupt on steal on a 30 second cooldown, and then headshot, which costs 4 initiative. And thats it. So, they have 1 every 30 seconds, and after an initial unload of 4, one every 7 seconds. Mesmers have 1 as a shatter on a 38 second cooldown, 2 on Mantra of Distraction (which also reduces cooldown of the shatter) on a 12 second cooldown, and then 1 on Chaos Storm (35 cd), 1 on magic bullet (25 second cd), 1 on Signet of Domination (45 second cd), and I think thats it. Not sure about power, probably has to have a lot.

    No, youre really not forcing them to pick another option at all. The only builds that use channeled blocks (builds? I guess I should just say, Warrior, though there is Engineer who Ill get to in a bit) are builds that want to be in your face. And Warriors dont use channeled blocks as an "oh kitten" option, but simply as a way to wait for important cooldowns. So you waste your Swipe to stop their block, and put yourself in Warriors "kill range". Now the Warrior doesnt use another option, but simply turns on you and starts attacking you, and shortly hits you with one of the big skills he was waiting for. While, once again, you curse your error. Now I said Id go over Engineers, so lets do that real quick. There is an Engineer build that does use Shield, which has a channeled block, Static Shield. But you dont use Swipe against that one even more, because you get stunned on the interrupt, and then the Engineer just kills you, or you waste a stunbreak.

    I also want to be in the warriors face. A warrior with no block is looking for arcing slice, evisc, and full counter (and bulls charge). I'm constantly putting weakness on the warrior by remaining within striking distance as long as I dodge his major skills.

    I dont think they use Eviscerate, its Dagger/GS most of the time. And a Warrior with no block is looking to hit those, yes, as is a Warrior with block. You throwing away one of the big ways to stop that favourable plays into their hands.

    No, it really doesnt. A smart opponent will realise that you just wasted your most powerful tool in the arsenal, and that youre basically shields down. They will go on the counter-offensive, abusing the fact that you wont be able to stop their most powerful cooldowns without putting yourself at a further disadvantage. Swipe is extremely poorly suited for turning off blocks, because its got too long of a cooldown to be able to use it for that and have it up in time for the cooldowns you need to stop. Optimally, steal is used for engaging, or interrupting important cooldowns. Swipe is incapable of doing the former, so its use cases is relegated to the latter. Its a worse steal. Or was, then its cooldown got reduced.

    I mean... you're free to think that. Steal is good for engaging and interrupting important cooldowns. We will have to agree to disagree that swipe can't be used aggressively.

    Using it to engage, or using it to interrupt important cooldowns to allow you to use your resources for damage is using it aggressively. I simply disagree that using it inefficiently to interrupt an unimportant cooldown so that you kitten yourself when dealing with important cooldowns is ever correct.

    Like I said, I run sword/pistol. I'm hardly shields down after Swipe.
    I'm not going to ramble too much about builds though. You saw what Sindrener did. You're free to make your own conclusion about that.
    You'd be surprised how much you can lean into brawler.

    Against Warrior? You absolutely are. Granted I guess you wouldnt want to face a Warrior as PW thief anyway, but still.

    I'll fight any warrior on PW thief.

    Hey Ill welcome that when Im playing Warrior (though I kinda wish they would make Full Counter Daze less and hit more, it was more fun when it did damage).

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:
    Hey Ill welcome that when Im playing Warrior (though I kinda wish they would make Full Counter Daze less and hit more, it was more fun when it did damage).

    Fight me and we will come to an understanding one way or another. If you come across a charr in orange in the arena named Cheshire Mistcloak, feel free to start swinging.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    ah, yes. the meta signet of domination + mantra of distraction mesmer we see everywhere.
    even if you ran all of these, pistol thief would be able to interrupt more often.
    Oh and btw, steal doesnt have 30s cd.
    there is ALOT of traits that reduce its cooldown
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sleight_of_Hand

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    I'm shocked you don't understand how good being able to consistently, instantly, with no wind up or animation, interrupt block stances is.

    For starters a lot of builds do not run traditional heals. Take Spellbreaker. Healing Signet unless you're a condition build is not a make or break skill to interrupt. Now let's say you're a thief you're plussing your spellbreaker (Or a mirage, or a weaver) fighting an enemy spellbreaker spellbreaker. Normally if you engaged the attack he'd run through a few skills, maybe a full counter, some dodges, and then try to enter the Block stance as soon as it was up. With Daredevil and Slight of Hand, the second he enters that block stance you and your warrior throttle his entire defensive rotation and he just dies.

    Similar with Glint Shiro. One of the things that makes Glint Shiro so strong is that it currently has team fight carry damage while being able to delay being focused far greater than something like a Holosmith, or a Core Guardian, due to Glint Shiro's amazing defensive rotation that prevents it from taking damage for potentially up to 20 seconds straight if they're good on cooldown and energy when they start the evasion. You and your teamfight try to focus the Rev, he goes into his defensive rotation. He'll pop a few riposting shadows, and then swap to staff and go into Warding Rift. The second you see warding rift you can interrupt it, throttle his entire defensive rotation and gets focused down by you and your team and he dies.

    And the thing is Jade Daggers isn't really worth interrupting for the low amount of healing it provides and the Glint Heal is also with average latency functionally impossible to interrupt. Like even with instant cast interrupts if you can consistently interrupt the Facet of Light precast for the glint heal at 0.25 second cast speed with the average latency of 50-75 ms on really good internet connections you're a reaction time god, even with an instant cast. Like I can barely cancel cast my own Facet of Light with my own stow weapon and I'm the one casting it.

    The Mirage heal is also largely uninterruptible due to being able to be 100% covered by mirage cloak. So again, the scepter block is the clear choice as that's literally scepter's only real source of damage and defense and if they're blocking they aren't going to evade so it basically guarantees plasma. Before as a Mirage if you see a daredevil charging your way while you're in a fight a lot of times the only way to stop a steal is the scepter block while you jump onto a no port.

    So with all these meta builds, the block stance is the clear choice on where to steal to maximize you and your teammate's capacity to kill these targets.

    Not to mention, Daredevils right now are running Pistol Offhand. If I can consistently catch healing skills with Magic Bullet at 0.5 second cast time and travel distance, you can certainly interrupt any heal skill with the far more spammable Head Shot which only has travel time (And maybe an unlisted 0.25 second cast time? It definitely comes out faster than Magic Bullet does, but even inside a target's hit box is definitely slower than the literally instant Mantra of Distraction). Headshot's travel speed is also significantly faster than Magic Bullet as well.

    Like who both has a lot of stability and a traditional interruptable healing skill they might try to cover with stability? Fire weaver doesn't have a traditional healing skill but they don't have a block stance so it's a moot point. Firebrand have the healing mantra which you can interrupt the channel but not the mantras so that like half counts. Like maybe just rangers at this point, maybe Core Necro and Reaper. Holosmith (Who don't have anywhere near as much stab as they used to). So right now it really is largely just rangers who you might have a choice on whether to interrupt the block stance or the healing skill depending on whether you've seen them recently use the healing skill or not.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:
    So with all these meta builds, the block stance is the clear choice on where to steal to maximize you and your teammate's capacity to kill these targets.

    I understand @UNOwen.7132 's thinking but...ye. If you're waiting for cds to come back up and you want to block something and absolutely can't while I'm nearby you're about to eat a lot of damage you aren't ready for. you might even burn some utilities in desperation.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @UNOwen.7132
    ah, yes. the meta signet of domination + mantra of distraction mesmer we see everywhere.
    even if you ran all of these, pistol thief would be able to interrupt more often.
    Oh and btw, steal doesnt have 30s cd.
    there is ALOT of traits that reduce its cooldown
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sleight_of_Hand

    Huh, I did forget about Lead Attacks doing that. Not sure how I did, so that was an error. I did however mention Sleight of Hand.

    Im not saying there is a build for that, there isnt, both of the on-interrupt traits Mesmer has arent nearly good enough. But thats the funny thing. Impacting Distraction, which is already pathetic, isnt getting nerfed, while Power Block which is better for the most part (has an interval that Impacting Distraction doesnt, but you shouldnt be spamming headshot), doesnt. And thats while Mesmer has more interrupts. Its not about which is better, because both builds have sucked for years.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Calling Swipe underpowered is like ignoring the fact that all Daredevils can:

    • Steal 3 Boons
    • Interrupt
    • Unblockable
    • Instant cast
      Which easily makes it one of bigger and most advantageous skill to win any fights because the moment you see someone use a heal skill, you can deny it right away.

    That Swipe is supposed to be a drawback for getting a third dodge roll, but they also gave swipe unblockable so it's massively and consistently more useful than steal in 90% of situations due to being an instant cast way to cancel block stances just goes to show just how faulty this idea of Drawbacks for elite specializations has been handled.

    Nah, Steal was better than Swipe in 90% situations because 1200 range matters a lot more than the ability to interrupt channeled blocks (mainly due to the fact that wasting your interrupt on channeled blocks means you dont have interrupts for heal skills, or literally any powerful skill you really want to interrupt, which meant you ideally almost never interrupted channeled blocks). In fact, thats why Swipe was so bad and Daredevil straight up vanished from viability until they had to buff its Cooldown just to make people pick DD again (which is the only reason Swipe is on par with steal now).

    I'm shocked you don't understand how good being able to consistently, instantly, with no wind up or animation, interrupt block stances is.

    For starters a lot of builds do not run traditional heals. Take Spellbreaker. Healing Signet unless you're a condition build is not a make or break skill to interrupt. Now let's say you're a thief you're plussing your spellbreaker (Or a mirage, or a weaver) fighting an enemy spellbreaker spellbreaker. Normally if you engaged the attack he'd run through a few skills, maybe a full counter, some dodges, and then try to enter the Block stance as soon as it was up. With Daredevil and Slight of Hand, the second he enters that block stance you and your warrior throttle his entire defensive rotation and he just dies.

    Similar with Glint Shiro. One of the things that makes Glint Shiro so strong is that it currently has team fight carry damage while being able to delay being focused far greater than something like a Holosmith, or a Core Guardian, due to Glint Shiro's amazing defensive rotation that prevents it from taking damage for potentially up to 20 seconds straight if they're good on cooldown and energy when they start the evasion. You and your teamfight try to focus the Rev, he goes into his defensive rotation. He'll pop a few riposting shadows, and then swap to staff and go into Warding Rift. The second you see warding rift you can interrupt it, throttle his entire defensive rotation and gets focused down by you and your team and he dies.

    And the thing is Jade Daggers isn't really worth interrupting for the low amount of healing it provides and the Glint Heal is also with average latency functionally impossible to interrupt. Like even with instant cast interrupts if you can consistently interrupt the Facet of Light precast for the glint heal at 0.25 second cast speed with the average latency of 50-75 ms on really good internet connections you're a reaction time god, even with an instant cast. Like I can barely cancel cast my own Facet of Light with my own stow weapon and I'm the one casting it.

    The Mirage heal is also largely uninterruptible due to being able to be 100% covered by mirage cloak. So again, the scepter block is the clear choice as that's literally scepter's only real source of damage and defense and if they're blocking they aren't going to evade so it basically guarantees plasma. Before as a Mirage if you see a daredevil charging your way while you're in a fight a lot of times the only way to stop a steal is the scepter block while you jump onto a no port.

    So with all these meta builds, the block stance is the clear choice on where to steal to maximize you and your teammate's capacity to kill these targets.

    Not to mention, Daredevils right now are running Pistol Offhand. If I can consistently catch healing skills with Magic Bullet at 0.5 second cast time and travel distance, you can certainly interrupt any heal skill with the far more spammable Head Shot which only has travel time (And maybe an unlisted 0.25 second cast time? It definitely comes out faster than Magic Bullet does, but even inside a target's hit box is definitely slower than the literally instant Mantra of Distraction). Headshot's travel speed is also significantly faster than Magic Bullet as well.

    Like who both has a lot of stability and a traditional interruptable healing skill they might try to cover with stability? Fire weaver doesn't have a traditional healing skill but they don't have a block stance so it's a moot point. Firebrand have the healing mantra which you can interrupt the channel but not the mantras so that like half counts. Like maybe just rangers at this point, maybe Core Necro and Reaper. Holosmith (Who don't have anywhere near as much stab as they used to). So right now it really is largely just rangers who you might have a choice on whether to interrupt the block stance or the healing skill depending on whether you've seen them recently use the healing skill or not.

    Balance is done around the meta. What people traditionally run, i.e. the meta, is what balance should be focused on. And its also what gameplay suggestions should be focused on. So sure, if you happen to run into the Unicorn Guardian running Shelter, then its a buff. Its however a nerf in the 99% of other situations.

    Normally if you try to plus on a spellbreaker, he is going to run away. After all, on flat ground even the thief cannot catch up to a Spellbreaker. But now, lets assume your situation happens. You get to the block stance. In your version, you cancel his block, and kill him. Alternative: You wait out his block .... and still kill him. While leaving your valuable cooldown so you can rotate and +1 someone else, or burst someone down in a teamfight. In this version, you lost 2 or so seconds, but gained a lot of power. Now of course, in the situation that cancelling the block does lead to a kill and you have nowhere to rotate to where the steal would be useful afterwards, then yes, Swipe is a buff. But even then, its a very minor buff, and the situation is too narrow.

    Actually, no, Shiro Glint is good for its ability to burst targets down, its considerably less effective in teamfights due to the fact that it currently really cant survive well enough. Warding Rift is a last resort, and by that point you shouldve used your Steal to interrupt Unrelenting Assault, Shackling Wave (in a 1v1 or 2v1 situation) or most importantly, Chaotic Release. If you have it available for Warding Rift, something went very wrong somewhere. Youre right that in the case of Rev you dont cancel the heals, but I never said interrupt the heals, but the important cooldowns.

    Nope, with all meta builds the block stance is the clear choice on where not to steal, as it typically minimises the effectiveness of your steal and your teammates capacity to kill these targets. The clear choice is important, powerful cooldowns capable of turning the tide, like Rampage or Chaotic Release, evasive skills in the weapon set they want to stay on for damage (to force them into the suboptimal weaponset faster, rather than letting them have free reign with it, waiting for them to swap to the suboptimal one, and then using it on a skill that likely only delays their death by seconds anyway) like Unrelenting Assault and simply slow cast high damaging abilities like Arc Slicer, Shackling Wave or even Precision Strike. Especially because that also means you use your steal sooner and have it up again sooner, rather than holding it back for often more than its cooldown just to waste it on its worst target. Oh and as for Mirage, Confusing Images is the target. Youll be sorry if you dont have it up by then.

    It has a cast time, yes. Mostly so you cant interrupt while using another skill (only Mesmer can do that). But sure, you can. Here is the issue though. Doing that requires you to waste 4 initiative for an interrupt, and maybe pathetic amounts of damage (if you run Pulmonary Impact). Which means that in order to make up for the mistake of wasting your steal on a channeled block, you have to seriously kitten your damage output and potentially hit your survivability as well (if youre PW thief) just interrupt the cooldown you shouldve used steal on in the first place. Idk about you, but that seems bad. Not to mention you have to keep 4 initiative permanently available just in case you need to fix the mistake of wasting the Swipe.

    Alternatively, what you can do is realise that channeled blocks are the worst targets for Swipe, not waste it on those, and instead use Swipe on valuable cooldowns, drastically improving your effectiveness.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    The moment someone uses a channelled block they aren't just deterring advances.

    They are stalling cooldowns.

    If yu interrupt this block yu have a high chance to ruin the target's set up for future actions because their calculated 3seconds or so of stalling is being forcefully skipped plus allowing the DD an attack which can't be retaliated to due to Daze.

    If anything Steal/Swipe has gotten so overloaded it can be considered "broken" due to how much just one button press can achieve.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thread hijacked by mesmer and rev mains.

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    The moment someone uses a channelled block they aren't just deterring advances.

    They are stalling cooldowns.

    If yu interrupt this block yu have a high chance to ruin the target's set up for future actions because their calculated 3seconds or so of stalling is being forcefully skipped plus allowing the DD an attack which can't be retaliated to due to Daze.

    If anything Steal/Swipe has gotten so overloaded it can be considered "broken" due to how much just one button press can achieve.

    Explain how steal is overloaded

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    Explain how steal is overloaded

    Steal can be traited to :

    Give a bunch of boons
    Steal boons
    Inflict either Daze or Confusion
    Give Initiative

    ^First three are meta pick traits for Trickery alone btw.

    Inflict Poison (JUST BY SLOTTING DEADLY ARTS!)
    Steal Health
    Recharge 1 utility

    ^also meta picks which want to run Deadly Arts

    Restore Endurance (AUTOMATICALLY GRANTED BY SLOTTING DD!)

    So, if someone is running a Meta DD build for example their Swipe will :

    Restore Endurance
    Restore Ini
    Inflict Poison
    Inflict Daze
    Steal 3 Boons
    Steal Health
    Give Boons
    Recharge 1 Utility
    Unblockable

    Plus it's all on 17sec CD.

    If yu think this isn't overloaded, yu should join Anet's balance team and ruin the game faster.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    Explain how steal is overloaded

    Steal can be traited to :

    Give a bunch of boons
    Steal boons
    Inflict either Daze or Confusion
    Give Initiative

    ^First three are meta pick traits for Trickery alone btw.

    Inflict Poison (JUST BY SLOTTING DEADLY ARTS!)
    Steal Health
    Recharge 1 utility

    ^also meta picks which want to run Deadly Arts

    Restore Endurance (AUTOMATICALLY GRANTED BY SLOTTING DD!)

    So, if someone is running a Meta DD build for example their Swipe will :

    Restore Endurance
    Restore Ini
    Inflict Poison
    Inflict Daze
    Steal 3 Boons
    Steal Health
    Give Boons
    Recharge 1 Utility
    Unblockable

    Plus it's all on 17sec CD.

    If yu think this isn't overloaded, yu should join Anet's balance team and ruin the game faster.

    what is meta dd build?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    If anything Steal/Swipe has gotten so overloaded it can be considered "broken" due to how much just one button press can achieve.

    "swipe is bad"
    explain swipe
    "steal/swipe is op"

    kek. #nerfsteal2020

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132
    Trashing the unblockable factor like it would never ruin anyone's survival, it's hilarious because 99% of the time someone is able to reset because of blocks regardless. The argument is flawed from the start.

    Balance is not done around the meta, it's designed around having as many options as available for the players, the players are the one for having the decision to pick something that is cheesy and requires the least effort, even in that scenario because GW2 by nature is not just an MMO like everyone tends to look at it, someone with enough of a brain can make anything work around the meta, it's just not something anyone cares about because "winning" at all cost, doesn't matter how bad they are at the game in the following.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132
    realistically PI needs to be nerfed.
    Power block deals LESS damage.
    has cooldown ( bugged one but untill its fixed it has cooldown )
    and is Grandmaster trait.
    grandmaster trait should be MUCHMUCHMUCH better then Major trait.
    And here is a thing for you. PB is power trait.
    so its used by POWER builds.
    POWER mesmer doesnt use staff for chaos storm
    power mesmer doesnt use pistol for p5
    power build doesnt use signet of dom.
    power mes can interrupt with F3 (38s cd)
    GS 5 ( will be 25s cd, 1/2s cast time so you have to predict casts with it )

    • offhand ( curtain/torch phantasm ) -> curtain can work, torch doesnt ever work.
      and potential mantra ( its overnerfed and gets nerfed again, its miserable to use and has low impact )
      power thief has more interrupts then power mesmer.
      and they are easy to land compared to mes.
      for example f3 is insta swipe is insta, but swipe has 500 extra range and half the cooldown AND is unblockable.
      headshot has half the casttime and twice the range off illusionary wave... etc etc