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Finally reached T4 fractals, but am confused about the people

So finally got my Personal Fractal level to 75 and can now use the T4 lfg..
But i'm confused as to the sudden obsession with builds and metas and kill points etc that im seeing.
(I have no intention on doing CM, so lets not discuss those so called "kill points" at all, "you do you boo" when it comes to that.).

Have been doing T3 for months, and you could clear anything with any pug teambuild there.

So i went and did T4 Molten Boss daily.
I see people joining my team and immediately declaring if theyre dps or heal etc, while going into detail about their builds and how they play..
And in my head im just like "guys...It's just Molten Boss...".
You literally mop up some groups of mobs and fight those 2 guys at the end who are total pushovers... Why so serious...

Followed this frac up with Mai Trin a bit later, with a different team. Joined a team who was worried about their dps and heals, yet again... So I walked in there, tried once, won. Piece of cake, nothing special compared to earlier tiers except a few more mobs... (2 teammates died during 25% health phase, yet still i had time to revive both by just dodging bombs..so cant Possibly be that hard)

Aaanyway...
Moving from T3, why is T4 suddenly so...robotic and tense? Where does the sudden obsession about efficiency come from, when the content itself isnt scaled up that much, particularly considering the "we NEED class x with build y for this" type arguments?

Almost tempted to just go back to T3 where its so chill. The T4 daily chests probably dont have anything more valuable in them anyway.

<1

Comments

  • T4 Fractals are significant harder. Foes gain increased Health and deal more damage, as you already have experienced. There is also a 3rd Instability added, which can make things really anoying (like 300 % more damage from foes in combination with Vindicators and bleeding fire).

    I would never run a T4 Fractal (except Solid Ocean) without a healer. You CAN do it without a healer, but having support makes things way more easier. As for the other things like Alacrene Renegade, Banner Warrior, Chrono, they also make T4 Fractals much more fun and smooth (you can run your T4 in far below 30 minutes), but not always will you find the "perfect" setup for your team. people are willing to spend minutes for searching, so they have a smooth run. You will also recognize that many people not only are Looking for T4 Fractals but also for CM (99 + 100). I would even say, there are more groups out there for CM + T4 as for just T4.

    As for me: I am specifically looking for groups just for T4 or T4 + recs. I don't mind if we do not have a Chrono or Alacrene, but if a healer is missing, I will take that spot. I also don't care, if we have some "no meta classes" like Scrapper or Core Elementalist. However, this setup of classes may mean, that you have a harder and longer trip (which, and I repeat myself, I don't mind). However, most partys for the three T4 Fractals are so experienced that they know what to do (with some exceptions).

    I recommend for you: Make your way up to 150 Agony Resistance and start looking for complete T4 partys. You will do fine for the most time, if everyone has enough AR and if there is a healer in the group. Watch out for Siren's Reef Fractal (Endboss encounter) and for Thaumanova (Subject 6). Both are huge group Killers at T4.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Andovar Edoras.2143 said:
    So i went and did T4 Molten Boss daily.
    I see people joining my team and immediately declaring if theyre dps or heal etc, while going into detail about their builds and how they play..
    And in my head im just like "guys...It's just Molten Boss...".
    You literally mop up some groups of mobs and fight those 2 guys at the end who are total pushovers... Why so serious...

    Followed this frac up with Mai Trin a bit later, with a different team. Joined a team who was worried about their dps and heals, yet again... So I walked in there, tried once, won. Piece of cake, nothing special compared to earlier tiers except a few more mobs... (2 teammates died during 25% health phase, yet still i had time to revive both by just dodging bombs..so cant Possibly be that hard)

    It depends on instabilities. Both had very easy ones today but pugkiller combinations do exist. also no pain no gain requires boon removal or you are dealing with perma protection.

    Aaanyway...
    Moving from T3, why is T4 suddenly so...robotic and tense? Where does the sudden obsession about efficiency come from, when the content itself isnt scaled up that much, particularly considering the "we NEED class x with build y for this" type arguments?

    I only see cm groups with such requirements. the dfference between a 300kp group and a regular t4 only is massive. the frst one can be up to three times as fast so everything can be done in 30min. maybe you just ran into the wrong group. normal t4 groups usually only want a healer.

    Almost tempted to just go back to T3 where its so chill. The T4 daily chests probably dont have anything more valuable in them anyway.

    They have a much higher chance on ascended weapons and armour and can drop an infusion worth a few hundred gold.

  • A few reasons, from personal experience:

    • People want to skip mechanics
    • People want to be time-efficient.
    • People play ONE build, and are good at it.

    Now, if certain mechanics weren't 'skippable' via healers; then it'd get interesting.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    Because T4 are harder : foes with more hp, more fmg, some new or stronger mechanics, a third instability;
    And because for a big majority Fractals are now "Money" and not gameplay anymore, players just hope for a quick and safe run like they could have the last years; it means a composition with good dps, buffs, but also a possible package of utilities/bonus to avoid most of mechanics (stab, portals, anti-proj, resistance, unblockable skills etc). Healer, no healer, who cares. Different visions, safety or race.
    Some classes make a real difference compared with others : Burst/dps, support, boons, dmg buff, CC (if players play well (and it's not always the case sadly) but sometimes, I agree, it's more like "robotic and tense"/ Ignorance/copy-paste than will to learn and perform better in situation or save real time.

    So sure, you can run fractals, even CM, with 5 good reapers if you want, or even alone; but after years and thousands of runs you might want to optimize your group and do not waste time.

  • I do think we need more light-hearted banter in our groups, raid and otherwise. It is a social game, after all.

  • Tiilimon.6094Tiilimon.6094 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm also quite sure you were cleansed and healed so quickly that you simply didnt notice either of these happening, its very common and makes many people think the content is easier than it really is.

    Depending on comp, the same instab that feels punishing can even be rewarding, like mobs stacking random condis but support runs condi to boon conversion.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    ???

    I regularly do t4 dailies and have not heard anyone talk about "meta", except for this one warrior that really seemed really proud about his two maces and got upset that nobody cared. It was worth the laugh tho.

    People saying they are dps or heal has nothing to do with "meta" either.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Simple. With proper boons ur dps will go significantly higher so u can clear much faster and smoother. Also with healer, chance of wiping and losing Time May decrease as well. But as cyninja said, many PPL just hope, healer Will cover all their mistakes, so they dont care for whats actually happening around, and they usually do rly random stuff, so playing without healer May be beneficial for u

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Andovar Edoras.2143Andovar Edoras.2143 Member ✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    To add, I kept Myself alive, and didnt have someone do that for me. Noticed some here mentioning that maybe i just didnt notice being supported. In that sense i pay attention who is doing what.

    I play renegade and actively change legends, a lot of the time focusing on survivability for myself and team. Dwarf for quick cc chain, 50% damage reduction ult, stability if needed and ofc the cleanse heal. Charr legend for that excellent lifesteal ult and aoe heal with condi damage reduction (This legend pair helps team survivability a lot imo; More survivability = more time being alive to fight). Demon if its one of those "more condis/outgoing resistance" instabilities. Ventari if its a heavy-projectile situation (rip molten facility rework..), particularly love using this for uncategorized/chaos vs knockbacks, or the laser stairs puzzle. Assassin legend for swamp or solid ocean running (dont like using this one in combat).

    Oh And ofc sharing might and alacrity with the renegade spells.

    Such versatility is what makes revenant fun for me and fractals completely doable.

    And yes, i do my own LFGs almost always anyway. Its just weird to see someone join my party and take it so seriously, or being anxious about it (Hi im dps is that okay :(". And im Definitely not gonna start kicking someone just because theyre not 100% perfect.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, for whatever reason end game people are very obsessed with speedrunning even when lots of ppl don't have the skill, dedication, or even a small amount of the knowledge required to demand a speedrun group (especially from PUGs lol).

    Some boons is nice and makes things fast ofc....that said...with a proper dps build u can still do a VERY significant amount of damage with only self gen boons - it goes faster with boons, but not brain killingly slow. Though, expecting proper builds from PUGs lol. I do consider a "healer" mandatory for t4, but as long as the instabilites aren't too bad i (personally) don't think a group needs that much of a healer. There's a few fractals where i definitely want a dedicated healer though, no matter what healer they are - sirens reef, twilight oasis. And a few fractals that don't quite need a healer per se, but go much easier with specific utility in the group - often times any old CFB who knows what types of CC, boons and other defensive effects are across their utilities (syg, mi, reflects) + tome 3 can carry harder than dedicated healers with much less available to them (like heal ren) on this front, ofc u don't need a firebrand - just knowledge of ones utilities.

    That said, to anyone who does dalies everyday - people whom I personally consider to be insane - taking +10 mins on each fractal is a significant increase in time, taking +20 mins on each fractal is even worse, so I can understand the desire for strict meta and exact same 2 supports. Doesn't match what I think & want to play like, but then I just don't join those groups - the deeply ingrained speedrunning mindsets and the average PUGs are why i don't even do t4s unless it's a group of friends.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Andovar Edoras.2143 said:
    To add, I kept Myself alive, and didnt have someone do that for me. Noticed some here mentioning that maybe i just didnt notice being supported. In that sense i pay attention who is doing what.

    I play renegade and actively change legends, a lot of the time focusing on survivability for myself and team. Dwarf for quick cc chain, 50% damage reduction ult, stability if needed and ofc the cleanse heal. Charr legend for that excellent lifesteal ult and aoe heal with condi damage reduction (This legend pair helps team survivability a lot imo; More survivability = more time being alive to fight). Demon if its one of those "more condis/outgoing resistance" instabilities. Ventari if its a heavy-projectile situation (rip molten facility rework..), particularly love using this for uncategorized/chaos vs knockbacks, or the laser stairs puzzle. Assassin legend for swamp or solid ocean running (dont like using this one in combat).

    Oh And ofc sharing might and alacrity with the renegade spells.

    I'm sorry, nothing which you mention here is in any way special, or shows an extended knowledge of your class. Literally everything you mentioned is basic knowledge for intermediate renegades.

    I mentioned this already, install arc and keep an eye on where your performance actually is (not only damage but also alacrity and might uptime). If you are performing that well, this should be a non issue for you.

    Also as mentioned, most regular T4 groups are rather lax in their requirements. Don't lump those groups together with the CM groups. Most T4 groups don't even bother with getting a renegade for alacrity and only care about a basic healer.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    Thats cause T4s are a farm that people dont want to be stuck on for a prolonged amount of time.
    Myself included tbh. If T4s take longer than 30minutes (basically the time my food lasts), I start to become a tad annoyed.
    Meta-gaming is just a way people make sure to run in a optimal setup to make the run as smooth and fast as possible.

    Altho, you are very right. Some people take it to the extreme.
    People certainly overvalue super-optimized setups. Like HFB, Alac-Renegade, BS + 2DPS.

    Alacrity Renegade and to a similar (but more minor) extend, Banner-Warriors are imo NOT needed for a good T4 group.
    While it is true that Alacrity smooths out certain DPS-rotations for some classes/specs, I think it is vastly overrated for T4s.
    From personal experience (and I run T4s almost daily, for years now) Alacrity Renegade pulls so little personal DPS, that the group dps-boost from 5 man Alacrity actually doesnt compensate it. Substituting the Renegade for an ACTUAL DPS usually is the more efficient way, I found.
    Obviously renegade has other utility qualities that make it a nice addition to the grp (like Kalla elite, very good CC or boonstrip and stab depending on second legend), but for 5 man settings its not very mandatory.

    Same goes for BannerSlave warriors. Sure, Banners are nice and all....but not really that high-value in a 5man setting.
    (Banner of Discipline is a great example, since the bonus crit% doesnt really matter a whole lot in fractals since most DPS specs critcap from potions alone anyway).
    But since a Banner Warrior also brings nutty personal DPS, this is certainly not something I mind having in my grps.

    Ultimately, at least for me, a good T4 grp has to bring these things:
    -Perma Quickness
    -Perma Fury
    -Perma 25 Might
    -1 Healer (since it trivializes most encounters)

    Thats it. No need for Banners or Alacrity or Spirits....Which basically means 1 HFB and 4 DPS.
    Id rather spend less time in the lfg and finish the Fractals in ~30 minute, than w8 15 minutes for the perfect grp comp and clearing the Fractals in ~25minutes.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    T4 groups are usually one of two kinds: A) groups where people can't do the mechanics at all and need supports to soft carry them. These are also obsessed with DPS and are probably at least mediocre at dealing damage, for if they don't skip the mechanics this way they will need to keep resetting the fights (as they can't adapt to dodging the mechanics once the mayhem starts). and B ) groups where people are more than good enough to adapt to any situation at all and do mechanics, but are low key tired of the game, or want to farm as fast as possible, or actually enjoy min-maxing and speedrunning. All of these will still want to play meta builds and get done with it all as fast as possible.

    You can create your own groups asking for nothing in particular and probably get them filled up fast because aside from the aforementioned organized groups, there is a reasonable amount of singled out players who have no particular intention when approaching their fractal dailies.

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭

    Until you run with both organized and unorganized groups you will never understand. I do agree that many take T4 (not CM) a little too seriously but I would rather they take kitten seriously and not waste my time.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Andovar Edoras.2143 said:
    To add, I kept Myself alive, and didnt have someone do that for me. Noticed some here mentioning that maybe i just didnt notice being supported. In that sense i pay attention who is doing what.

    I play renegade and actively change legends, a lot of the time focusing on survivability for myself and team. Dwarf for quick cc chain, 50% damage reduction ult, stability if needed and ofc the cleanse heal. Charr legend for that excellent lifesteal ult and aoe heal with condi damage reduction (This legend pair helps team survivability a lot imo; More survivability = more time being alive to fight). Demon if its one of those "more condis/outgoing resistance" instabilities. Ventari if its a heavy-projectile situation (rip molten facility rework..), particularly love using this for uncategorized/chaos vs knockbacks, or the laser stairs puzzle. Assassin legend for swamp or solid ocean running (dont like using this one in combat).

    Oh And ofc sharing might and alacrity with the renegade spells.

    I'm sorry, nothing which you mention here is in any way special, or shows an extended knowledge of your class. Literally everything you mentioned is basic knowledge for intermediate renegades.

    I mentioned this already, install arc and keep an eye on where your performance actually is (not only damage but also alacrity and might uptime). If you are performing that well, this should be a non issue for you.

    Also as mentioned, most regular T4 groups are rather lax in their requirements. Don't lump those groups together with the CM groups. Most T4 groups don't even bother with getting a renegade for alacrity and only care about a basic healer.

    Exactly, theres nothing special to it because that has always been sufficient. Adaptability imo is the whole idea behind the revenant. Just like other classes have their own self-sufficient playstyles. I can keep myself alive, others alive, and deal plenty of damage.
    I will not be downloading any meters, since i really dont care about the detailed numbers and am not looking to optimize myself into some sort of a machine. As long as the team survives and enemy dies, it is a-okay for me.

    And overall to this topic: Personally i take it chill and cba with that hardcore perfection nonsense (staying away from those lfg groups), but it makes me sad to see Others feel so pressured to present themselves as ideal teammates.. It's a fractal, not a career job interview...

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While it is true that Alacrity smooths out certain DPS-rotations for some classes/specs, I think it is vastly overrated for T4s.
    From personal experience (and I run T4s almost daily, for years now) Alacrity Renegade pulls so little personal DPS, that the group dps-boost from 5 man Alacrity actually doesnt compensate it. Substituting the Renegade for an ACTUAL DPS usually is the more efficient way, I found.

    Thats because most rens don't know how to play and just keep kalla up and auto attack. A good ren can outdamage bad dps players and alacrity is a significant dps boost and ren also brings 10might + 150 ferocity.

    Same goes for BannerSlave warriors. Sure, Banners are nice and all....but not really that high-value in a 5man setting.
    (Banner of Discipline is a great example, since the bonus crit% doesnt really matter a whole lot in fractals since most DPS specs critcap from potions alone anyway).
    But since a Banner Warrior also brings nutty personal DPS, this is certainly not something I mind having in my grps.

    Only very few builds critcap with potions. reapers and holos for example. but this is stuff i would only care about in a cm group since damage shortens them quite a lot.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Andovar Edoras.2143 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Andovar Edoras.2143 said:
    To add, I kept Myself alive, and didnt have someone do that for me. Noticed some here mentioning that maybe i just didnt notice being supported. In that sense i pay attention who is doing what.

    I play renegade and actively change legends, a lot of the time focusing on survivability for myself and team. Dwarf for quick cc chain, 50% damage reduction ult, stability if needed and ofc the cleanse heal. Charr legend for that excellent lifesteal ult and aoe heal with condi damage reduction (This legend pair helps team survivability a lot imo; More survivability = more time being alive to fight). Demon if its one of those "more condis/outgoing resistance" instabilities. Ventari if its a heavy-projectile situation (rip molten facility rework..), particularly love using this for uncategorized/chaos vs knockbacks, or the laser stairs puzzle. Assassin legend for swamp or solid ocean running (dont like using this one in combat).

    Oh And ofc sharing might and alacrity with the renegade spells.

    I'm sorry, nothing which you mention here is in any way special, or shows an extended knowledge of your class. Literally everything you mentioned is basic knowledge for intermediate renegades.

    I mentioned this already, install arc and keep an eye on where your performance actually is (not only damage but also alacrity and might uptime). If you are performing that well, this should be a non issue for you.

    Also as mentioned, most regular T4 groups are rather lax in their requirements. Don't lump those groups together with the CM groups. Most T4 groups don't even bother with getting a renegade for alacrity and only care about a basic healer.

    Exactly, theres nothing special to it because that has always been sufficient. Adaptability imo is the whole idea behind the revenant. Just like other classes have their own self-sufficient playstyles. I can keep myself alive, others alive, and deal plenty of damage.
    I will not be downloading any meters, since i really dont care about the detailed numbers and am not looking to optimize myself into some sort of a machine. As long as the team survives and enemy dies, it is a-okay for me.

    Which is fine, but you are coming here complaining others are interested in a smooth experience, while you yourself are unwilling to even check if and how much you contributed to such a smooth run. Suffice to say, not every T4 run is smooth and that's when the blame game starts.

    Different players have different expectations. The next person might come and argue: well why should I be playing a meta class, which happens often enough.

    The simple reality is: if content is challenging for some players, gating will happen. The more challenging the content, the more harsher the gating.

    @Andovar Edoras.2143 said:
    And overall to this topic: Personally i take it chill and cba with that hardcore perfection nonsense (staying away from those lfg groups), but it makes me sad to see Others feel so pressured to present themselves as ideal teammates.. It's a fractal, not a career job interview...

    Which again is perfectly fine, and I applaud the fact that you are making your own groups. Base T4 fractals are not that hard to begin with, and even CMs are easy once you know them by heart, yet some players are challenged by this content. This is reflected in the way more lax requirements for T4 fractals versus CM groups for example.

    Different players approach this content in different ways:
    I've for example experienced a player "gg" over 10 times, forcing the group to restart the fight, only because he messed up his opening rotation in a 300+KP CM group. Not necessarily something I would do, and it was getting a bit annoying from a pure time lost perspective, but the group respected his decision and we had saved tons of time earlier in the run.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    Same goes for BannerSlave warriors. Sure, Banners are nice and all....but not really that high-value in a 5man setting.
    (Banner of Discipline is a great example, since the bonus crit% doesnt really matter a whole lot in fractals since most DPS specs critcap from potions alone anyway).
    But since a Banner Warrior also brings nutty personal DPS, this is certainly not something I mind having in my grps.

    I don't agree. On the last monts, particulary after the nerf of precast traps (You can't cast 5 traps, go FB, then go back DH) I've seen a lot of berserker "banner slave" perform better than any other DPS.
    That why I don't understand why people don't want berserker as "DPS" besides an other BS.
    Take the short fight build (a physical skill rather than a rage skill + may be the +5sec trait over the burning) : good job you have brainless insane DPS and Burst for CMs and most encounters.
    zeal FB + ren can assure >20 Vulnerability, others will help with the last ones; so DH is not that necessary. And in my experience most of them don't know their rotation or the lack of alacrity mess it up.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    As someone who used to do T4 fractals without healers 3 years ago, Kitty's felt like lots of people have got ascended geared through raids and then went into T4 fractals with their friends and since healers and certain boons are considered a must due to those being required in raids and raiding dpsers have usually had healers covering up for their mistakes (read: carrying them), the influx of raiders to T4 fractals combined with increased difficulty of ShattObs, Twilight Oasis and Siren's Reef compared to older fractals has led to people requiring typical raid comps to, like so usual for raids, kill stuffs before they do anything 'cause "taking longer to kill the boss means more chances for mechanics to kill the squad". (Just learn them mechs kitten.)

    Though, to make matters worse, people have at some point discovered how broken strong healbrand is at carrying mechs-eating glass cannons in fractals and now essentially 80% of squads (at least on NA) require a healbrand to carry them through. And that's led to one of Kitty's new catchphrases "Healbrand is the healscourge of fractals." as people tend to yell "we need a healscourge!" whenever they start wiping to failing mechs in raids (and they don't actually even know how broken strong healscourge truly is as only those who've seen Kitty's vids know its true potential).

    Apologies for such a toxic-sounding post but Kitty's kinda already got frustrated at people failing mechs and requiring that same boring comp time and time again due to getting too used to having every mechs blocked. And she's only become active fractaler again 1,5 weeks ago. Essentially, boons are nice, healer is even nicer but if peoples actually know their stuff, neither are truly needed to clear the dailies in reasonable time.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks. Not active anymore.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    Thats cause T4s are a farm that people dont want to be stuck on for a prolonged amount of time.
    Myself included tbh. If T4s take longer than 30minutes (basically the time my food lasts), I start to become a tad annoyed.
    Meta-gaming is just a way people make sure to run in a optimal setup to make the run as smooth and fast as possible.

    Altho, you are very right. Some people take it to the extreme.
    People certainly overvalue super-optimized setups. Like HFB, Alac-Renegade, BS + 2DPS.

    Alacrity Renegade and to a similar (but more minor) extend, Banner-Warriors are imo NOT needed for a good T4 group.
    While it is true that Alacrity smooths out certain DPS-rotations for some classes/specs, I think it is vastly overrated for T4s.
    From personal experience (and I run T4s almost daily, for years now) Alacrity Renegade pulls so little personal DPS, that the group dps-boost from 5 man Alacrity actually doesnt compensate it. Substituting the Renegade for an ACTUAL DPS usually is the more efficient way, I found.
    Obviously renegade has other utility qualities that make it a nice addition to the grp (like Kalla elite, very good CC or boonstrip and stab depending on second legend), but for 5 man settings its not very mandatory.

    Same goes for BannerSlave warriors. Sure, Banners are nice and all....but not really that high-value in a 5man setting.
    (Banner of Discipline is a great example, since the bonus crit% doesnt really matter a whole lot in fractals since most DPS specs critcap from potions alone anyway).
    But since a Banner Warrior also brings nutty personal DPS, this is certainly not something I mind having in my grps.

    Ultimately, at least for me, a good T4 grp has to bring these things:
    -Perma Quickness
    -Perma Fury
    -Perma 25 Might
    -1 Healer (since it trivializes most encounters)

    Thats it. No need for Banners or Alacrity or Spirits....Which basically means 1 HFB and 4 DPS.
    Id rather spend less time in the lfg and finish the Fractals in ~30 minute, than w8 15 minutes for the perfect grp comp and clearing the Fractals in ~25minutes.

    My brain hurts

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    Same goes for BannerSlave warriors. Sure, Banners are nice and all....but not really that high-value in a 5man setting.
    (Banner of Discipline is a great example, since the bonus crit% doesnt really matter a whole lot in fractals since most DPS specs critcap from potions alone anyway).
    But since a Banner Warrior also brings nutty personal DPS, this is certainly not something I mind having in my grps.

    I don't agree. On the last monts, particulary after the nerf of precast traps (You can't cast 5 traps, go FB, then go back DH) I've seen a lot of berserker "banner slave" perform better than any other DPS.
    That why I don't understand why people don't want berserker as "DPS" besides an other BS.
    Take the short fight build (a physical skill rather than a rage skill + may be the +5sec trait over the burning) : good job you have brainless insane DPS and Burst for CMs and most encounters.
    zeal FB + ren can assure >20 Vulnerability, others will help with the last ones; so DH is not that necessary. And in my experience most of them don't know their rotation or the lack of alacrity mess it up.

    Yes, Berserker is definitely worth it, I completely agree.
    But not necessarily mandatory, imo.

    As for the whole renegade argument.
    I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

    Some napkin-math:

    First off, lets assume the other Ele has the same dps as me.
    Then, the grp dps (without the healer) would be around: 21.4 +21.4 + 13.4+ 6.7 = 62.9K DPS

    If we are very generous and assume an Alacrigade boosts each grp members dps by about ~15% (from alacrity and Kalla Elite), everybody would effectively have lower dps.
    So the two ele's 21.4ks go down to ~18.6k and the Warrior deals only ~11.7k.
    We replace the Renegade with another high DPS class that also deals (for arguments sake) 18.6k Dps.

    Then we get a grp dps of: 18.6 + 18.6 + 18.6 + 11.7 = 67.5k DPS
    So HIGHER than with the alacrigade.

    Even if we factor in the additional vuln and what else have you (which a lot of classes can provide) and maybe even say we have slightly better boon uptime cause the Alacrity helps our support with that ....I genuinely dont think it matters much for a 5 man setting. Especially in fractals, where encounters last maybe ~2 minutes.

    Edit:
    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bs should be making bit less/the same dmg as dps classes. Rene as well even on malyx and full diviner is Able to deal ~ 14k (at least 10k). Also actually Ele suffers more dps loss from no alacrity than other dps specs.
    SS is 5 % dps boost for Ele and bit less for bs. So i guess ferocity and alacrity should do a bit more than 10%.especially if phase are long

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    And then No Pain No Gain comes along and your dps drops 33%!

    Also Renegade provides protection and soulcleavers, making it much easier for other people to dps. If you didn't have a renegade, there's a good chance some of your pug friends will lose far more than 15% of their damage just by going down more. They also do a lot of breakbar damage, meaning the rest of the group can mostly ignore CC.

  • BRNBRITO.9624BRNBRITO.9624 Member ✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

    It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

    No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

    Also, decent/good is subjective to people and the expectations you have when you join X ess groups, i used to run only 200-250 ess groups but from my experience there's close to no difference in player skill to 50ess groups, and on those 200-250 ones, they're pretty easy to quick/flame others even though they're doing close to nothing and just hiding behind their ess and/or titles, if i join a 250ess group asking for specific classes etc i'll expect them to be at least half-decent and not have 50% boon uptime and DPS as hard as a diviner renegade, else i don't really know what's the point on the ess-gating.

    That was a 200ess group, i'd say that's pretty bad considering i had to nonstop CC every boss with bundles and people were playing the blame-game instead of actually trying to work together and help each other as a group, people literally stand there auto-attacking waiting for others to do something for some reason, yet act all elitist and toxic if something doesn't go as they expect.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

    It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

    No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

    No, you are certainly correct here.
    As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.
    But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    As for the whole renegade argument.
    I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

    I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.
    Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.
    Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.
    On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    As for the whole renegade argument.
    I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

    I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.
    Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.
    Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.
    On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

    Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.
    But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.
    9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

    For some reference:

    Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.
    Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

    And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

    Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

    It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

    No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

    No, you are certainly correct here.
    As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.
    But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

    The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

    Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

    That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

    By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

    EDIT:
    and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    I'm more confused about the behavior of players. It's unacceptable that some players just join to do fractals (T4/T3 dailies / or dailies + recs or recs) and then just leave for no reasons during the fractal or because a boss is failed 1 time. Or even more simply just trolling and doing nothing to progress the fractal. (Ex: staying at middle during swampland waiting for other to succeed it if not, they leave). A report option should be added with a system of dishonor.

    @Anet A fractal takes what it takes, even with a good formed group of several roles, sometimes it's slow, sometimes fast it's the game. Peoples rage-quitting or just impatient and leaving before the end of fractal for infuriating should be punished with a buff preventing them to join fractals during 1-3 days. (I speak of those leaving without saying anything, not the ones kicked, and of course you can have an emergency, but then you explain and ask for a kick).
    If you join a group it's because you want to do the fractals, if not you should be punished. Staying with others and being comprehensible and patient it's called RESPECT. I really think tags should be added to group in LFG: [All accepted] [Rush] [Meta build] [Chilling] it's no fun for a group of players that just want to do their dailies/recs without pressure to have 3 nervous persons joining. They always have the same behavior, they don't say hi/hey/hello, never ty, never take singularities, leave if they are downed. Punishment will increase if repeated during the day: 1st time = No rewards buff for the next fractal, 2nd: No reward buff 24h, 3rd : 1 day fractal ban. After 4 time: fractal Ban for 3 day. It's a plague and can't continue like this. At least add tools to prevent different types of players from meeting each others.
    Of course I can agree with expecting certain roles from joiners or waiting certain builds, but you don't join a squad just saying "dailies" if you are a speedrunner...

    This is an issue that can't be ignored anymore. The other day did T4 recs+ dailies with the nicest person of the earth, 3 joined after and rot the ambiance, not caring of fractals, all were staying next to a swampland orbs without taking them or not attacking bosses, left also in shattered obs because of one fail at last boss (btw some joined after, no issues). Really should have an option to automatically refuse our blocked players to join our group at least if nothing will be done. It's pure toxicity, and it's sad it's appearing everywhere, strikes, fractals, raids, what's next, pve squads?

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    ->Project: ASURAN/PRIMORDIUS EXPANSION available on WIKI.
    ->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
    ->NEW Asurapedia

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    It was released shortly after diviner got released. Lots of stuff you would do differently on a ren now also the current meta uses a dh instead of a fb and their slb wasnt running stance share because qT reasons.
    Here a more relevant one:

    Ren has 18k because he didnt spend half the fight on staff like in your video.
    Or here 22k:

  • @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    As for the whole renegade argument.
    I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

    I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.
    Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.
    Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.
    On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

    Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.
    But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.
    9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

    For some reference:

    Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.
    Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

    And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

    Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

    If you want to see a video of a relatively okayish group with npng where renegade scuffed most of his dps by canceling / other reasons, here you go:

    Renegade is a necessary support for the group. You bring ferocity, might and alacrity to a group that would otherwise lack all of those. In addition, you make the kills easier and faster by healing and dealing with mechanics (healing gives scholar rune uptime → increased dps from dps players). On top of that, a good renegade can be a decent part of your damage and very important to your bursts (on non-npng days, you can burst Enso/MAMA for 50k DPS in first phase). AND IN ADDITION TO ALL PREVIOUSLY SAID THINGS: Renegade can solo breakbars and on CMs it does like half of the defiance bar damage.

    minecrafter

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    That's all the point : good renegades.
    We had the AFK warriors long ago before the berserker rework, no one really knew the expected DPS so they just spammed banners and waited. Now we know, they can't hide anymore. :#
    Renegade seems to be the new pilar but often somewhat expected the new burden too. Bad alacrity/might uptime ; no staff ; bad management of energy and CD, mallyx/jalis + soulcleave on burst phases ; etc. The border between Mandatory and Crippling is easy to cross.
    May be they don't all know what we expect from them, may be it's the lack of cooperation or knowledge(skill) of the group too. Example, blue bar is 90% broken and Ren is like "Guys ? We break it now or I wasted my energy/legend for nothing ? "

    I think his point is, you better want a medium DPS than a medium renegade. That is a important question in PUG, where you can't have too much faith in other members.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Janitsu.6284 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    As for the whole renegade argument.
    I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

    I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.
    Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.
    Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.
    On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

    Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.
    But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.
    9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

    For some reference:

    Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.
    Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

    And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

    Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

    If you want to see a video of a relatively okayish group with npng where renegade scuffed most of his dps by canceling / other reasons, here you go:

    Renegade is a necessary support for the group. You bring ferocity, might and alacrity to a group that would otherwise lack all of those. In addition, you make the kills easier and faster by healing and dealing with mechanics (healing gives scholar rune uptime → increased dps from dps players). On top of that, a good renegade can be a decent part of your damage and very important to your bursts (on non-npng days, you can burst Enso/MAMA for 50k DPS in first phase). AND IN ADDITION TO ALL PREVIOUSLY SAID THINGS: Renegade can solo breakbars and on CMs it does like half of the defiance bar damage.

    Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?
    Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

    This and @Nephalem.8921 s comment from earlier actually make me second guessing my experiences so far.
    Like whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they usually end up doing between ~25% and ~33% of my dps.
    If Diviner (!) Renegade actually can reach about ~60% the DPS of a full DPS class.....I have developed an actual biased towards the class, since I cant remember to have EVER seen that before.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Janitsu.6284 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    As for the whole renegade argument.
    I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

    I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.
    Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.
    Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.
    On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

    Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.
    But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.
    9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

    For some reference:

    Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.
    Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

    And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

    Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

    If you want to see a video of a relatively okayish group with npng where renegade scuffed most of his dps by canceling / other reasons, here you go:

    Renegade is a necessary support for the group. You bring ferocity, might and alacrity to a group that would otherwise lack all of those. In addition, you make the kills easier and faster by healing and dealing with mechanics (healing gives scholar rune uptime → increased dps from dps players). On top of that, a good renegade can be a decent part of your damage and very important to your bursts (on non-npng days, you can burst Enso/MAMA for 50k DPS in first phase). AND IN ADDITION TO ALL PREVIOUSLY SAID THINGS: Renegade can solo breakbars and on CMs it does like half of the defiance bar damage.

    Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?
    Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

    This and @Nephalem.8921 s comment from earlier actually make me second guessing my experiences so far.
    Like whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they usually end up doing between ~25% and ~33% of my dps.
    If Diviner (!) Renegade actually can reach about ~60% the DPS of a full DPS class.....I have developed an actual biased towards the class, since I cant remember to have EVER seen that before.

    Edit: Okay. After rewatching the video. You can clearly see that his renegade is not running full Diviner. At 01:15 he presses his F3 (without Moa stance from the SlB) and alacrity drops before the skill is up again.

  • BRNBRITO.9624BRNBRITO.9624 Member ✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?
    Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

    Didn't check all vids but IMO for pugs you're better off full diviner (at least 90% BD) + pack runes since you can never trust others to upkeep boons, those vids have proper groups and not the usual experience you'll have when pugging, but gives an idea of good gameplay and how big the difference can be.

    I wouldn't say i'm a great player and barely play rev but here's an example of rev dps/skill breakdown for 99CM MAMA, Siax and Ensolyss, reminder that they're full pug runs on NA, not speedrun/static/resetting boss, running full diviner, force+impact and pack runes.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?
    Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

    Didn't check all vids but IMO for pugs you're better off full diviner (at least 90% BD) + pack runes since you can never trust others to upkeep boons, those vids have proper groups and not the usual experience you'll have when pugging, but gives an idea of good gameplay and how big the difference can be.

    I wouldn't say i'm a great player and barely play rev but here's an example of rev dps/skill breakdown for 99CM MAMA, Siax and Ensolyss, reminder that they're full pug runs on NA, not speedrun/static/resetting boss, running full diviner, force+impact and pack runes.

    Okay, thanks alot for sharing that.
    If that is the dps potential of a full diviner renegade, I stand corrected after all.
    This is so odd tho. As said before, whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they are barely above the healer in the meter.
    Guess I had a totally wrong impression then.
    Cause a 7k renegade is really not worth having then.

  • @Zenix.6198 said:
    Okay, thanks alot for sharing that.
    If that is the dps potential of a full diviner renegade, I stand corrected after all.
    This is so odd tho. As said before, whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they are barely above the healer in the meter.
    Guess I had a totally wrong impression then.
    Cause a 7k renegade is really not worth having then.

    That's about the average i get on most pugs, MAMA was pretty good, Ensolyss not so much, probably the hardest part of fractals is that you need to adapt on the fly with breakbars/mechanics and react according to your group damage/CC, probably the reason a lot of people underperform sometimes, you can fully memorize a rotation video but if your party instabreaks the bar you can't/shouldn't do a full opener, gotta capitalize as much as possible on the exposed debuff while it lasts.

    I tweaked my heal build a bit as well since Healbrand already overheals so so much, just swapped trinkets from Harrier to Seraph and Honorable Staff to Empowering Might and spend more time on Axe since rarely there's a might problem (swap and start stacking with Staff during splits etc), with mistlock (F1#5 precast) can get around 15-20k "burst" and sustain around 6-7k dps on Healbrand (bit less on Arkk/Skorrvald), might not be much but i feel it's more useful having some DPS than unnecessary extra healing.

  • @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Janitsu.6284 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    As for the whole renegade argument.
    I had a pretty decent grp today (pugging) for my CMs + T4s and took a screenshot after Ensyloss (99 Frac).

    I stop you right there. Thats not a decent group. Thats a bad group. Decent would be dps player having 24k+ and berserker 22k+ while ren at 15k. 10-12k with npng.
    Alacrity is really hard to calculate. It is needed to get one wolf pack / lightning storm in each phase a lot of the times which is often needed to skip phases which will reduce kill times greatly.
    Burst suffers a lot without those skills into breakbar. Also this really isnt a good ren. dropping the ren today would've cost you way more than 15% since it was npng day.
    On ensyl the ren should really achieve 15k+ dps with normal instabs. Also fb needs higher boon duration without alacrity which could force some diviner pieces if he isn't playing leechbrand.

    Ye, sure....Obviously the grp wasnt super hardcore. Npng definitely added more value to the rengade today.
    But saying 12k or 15k on ensyl is a number to be aimed for is absolutely ludicrous.
    9k renegades are the highest of highest end I have seen in frac pugs so far.

    For some reference:

    Sure, that video is a year old now.....but this is as optimized a comp as you can essentiall get even today.
    Fractal Gog on everyone, MUCH higher than needed AR (for extra stats), Class-specific boon stacking beyond the scope of any PuG grp ...etc.etc.

    And that renegade had sub 15k on ensyl....and thats with all the mentioned things above. 189 AR, Fractal God, Frost Spirit, Bane Signet, Frostbow precast, even tactics banner.

    Not a very realistic pug experience at all.

    If you want to see a video of a relatively okayish group with npng where renegade scuffed most of his dps by canceling / other reasons, here you go:

    Renegade is a necessary support for the group. You bring ferocity, might and alacrity to a group that would otherwise lack all of those. In addition, you make the kills easier and faster by healing and dealing with mechanics (healing gives scholar rune uptime → increased dps from dps players). On top of that, a good renegade can be a decent part of your damage and very important to your bursts (on non-npng days, you can burst Enso/MAMA for 50k DPS in first phase). AND IN ADDITION TO ALL PREVIOUSLY SAID THINGS: Renegade can solo breakbars and on CMs it does like half of the defiance bar damage.

    Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?
    Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

    This and @Nephalem.8921 s comment from earlier actually make me second guessing my experiences so far.
    Like whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they usually end up doing between ~25% and ~33% of my dps.
    If Diviner (!) Renegade actually can reach about ~60% the DPS of a full DPS class.....I have developed an actual biased towards the class, since I cant remember to have EVER seen that before.

    Renegade in said video (me) is running 40 % BD in it, which is a bit safer than none. The DPS is quite lowish due to obvious mistakes and NPNG however. In pugs I run 80 % BD and still deal 14k-15k on non-NPNG days due to knowing when to burst and how to burst.

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    Can you tell me, if the renegade in that video is running full diviner or full zerker?
    Cause the quantify video I posted earlier, states that it actually is full zerker.

    Didn't check all vids but IMO for pugs you're better off full diviner (at least 90% BD) + pack runes since you can never trust others to upkeep boons, those vids have proper groups and not the usual experience you'll have when pugging, but gives an idea of good gameplay and how big the difference can be.

    I wouldn't say i'm a great player and barely play rev but here's an example of rev dps/skill breakdown for 99CM MAMA, Siax and Ensolyss, reminder that they're full pug runs on NA, not speedrun/static/resetting boss, running full diviner, force+impact and pack runes.

    Okay, thanks alot for sharing that.
    If that is the dps potential of a full diviner renegade, I stand corrected after all.
    This is so odd tho. As said before, whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they are barely above the healer in the meter.
    Guess I had a totally wrong impression then.
    Cause a 7k renegade is really not worth having then.

    This is mostly caused by the fact that people don't know how to properly utilise renegade and don't know what do on the class. The other reason for low DPS renegades is simply the fact that they are hold to no standards at all due to pugs not knowing capabilities of the three support classes (BS, rene, qFB/hFB) and therefore not expecting more, so they can just basically AFK through an encounter.

    Most of the people doing solely CMs and T4s for the farming rather than improving will always have worse numbers than people who post videos on YouTube. It's up to the rest of the group to actually hold them to a certain standard.

    minecrafter

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    Okay, thanks alot for sharing that.
    If that is the dps potential of a full diviner renegade, I stand corrected after all.
    This is so odd tho. As said before, whenever I have a renegade in my grps, they are barely above the healer in the meter.
    Guess I had a totally wrong impression then.
    Cause a 7k renegade is really not worth having then.

    I tweaked my heal build a bit as well since Healbrand already overheals so so much, just swapped trinkets from Harrier to Seraph and Honorable Staff to Empowering Might and spend more time on Axe since rarely there's a might problem (swap and start stacking with Staff during splits etc), with mistlock (F1#5 precast) can get around 15-20k "burst" and sustain around 6-7k dps on Healbrand (bit less on Arkk/Skorrvald), might not be much but i feel it's more useful having some DPS than unnecessary extra healing.

    Ye, I started running Empowering might on my healbrand ages ago as well.
    With the bonus critchance in fractals (~10.5 % from pots at 150AR, and Fury and maybe 4.5% from banner) you essential proc this trait off ICD.
    Its AT least 10 extra might, and you an reach 100 Boonduration in fractals without Honorable staff as well.
    Im always surprised when I see HFBs struggling with might uptime, since this makes it really, really easy.

  • You are wrong in many levels and i know why, because i was once just like you.
    After mastering T3 i felt i was good enough for T4.
    So i started 75+ back in the day with a condi zerker and was destroying everything. I thought myself: "baah, thats so easy, i wont bother".

    Then on a nice shinny day, the daily was 100.
    Man i got DESTROYED. After 30 minutes attempting to kill the first boss i left, tried another group, same thing.

    After that i stopped underestimating T4.
    And then months later i had limited time and just wanted to be done with all of them asap and that requires a structured team. Not the point of playing X or Y class, but ROLE. Like, we need 1 heal, 1 support and 3 DPS. It doesnt matter if you are a Soulbeat condi, or a Power DH, or a power REV, as long as you can DPS we're fine. It doesnt matter if youre Rev, Druid, FB or Ele, as long as you can heal we are good.

    There are some easy fractals:
    Chaos, Cliffside, Molten Boss, Underground facility, Molten furnace, Uncategorized

    There are some mid-ones
    Swampland, Volcanic, Lab, Urban Battleground and Amala

    And some HARD ones that NEEDS a structured team to beat
    Nightmare, Siren's Reef, Shattered Obs, Snowblind (last boss), etc.

    Just an example. So keep cool and join in, you'll be just like the rest in a few months. I never had issue with ppl making playing X or Y class, only be good with the role i choose

  • The very reason why people have to state their roles in T4s is for group performance, 4 people run full dps and 1 support to pulse out heal and quickness would be super decent, second is for time efficiency, nobody wants to have a 3 hour run with people dont know what they are doing, would be a horrible horrible nightmare, most just want to swing by and complete the Dailies-Recs in like 30mins. The fact that you didnt die in the boss encouter didnt mean you are a good player, it just that you are running a heavy condi tanking build with high health and sustain for yourself while doing next to no damage to the boss, other people if they run full dps to clear the boss as fast as possible, to save their time and do something else and dont have a proper support for survivability they gonna die.

    Its just simple as that, you are running a build that is self sufficient, high survivabily, others running to maximize the damage, they are squishy and easy to die, if you expect everyone to be like you, noone wants to have a specific role in the group, its gonna be a clown fiesta, you could clear T4s like one time now maybe because it was a good day with instabilities not so obnoxious to deal with and very likely you was dps-carried by the people that died and you just wiping up the rest, wait until you do Siren's Reef and get in party with people with same mindset like you, you gonna wipe dozen times over.

    So sweet... So cold... if only the others could taste it...
    So...so good... The crunch of bones...makes it go away, only for a little while...

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    (edit; ooooooooooops wrong thead)

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

    It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

    No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

    No, you are certainly correct here.
    As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.
    But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

    The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

    Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

    That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

    By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

    EDIT:
    and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

    Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

    It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

    No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

    No, you are certainly correct here.
    As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.
    But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

    The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

    Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

    That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

    By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

    EDIT:
    and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

    Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

    If I remember it works with Daze too, so may be with Darkrazor's Thing (1/4sec *6 daze) (I don't know how the game will calculate it, it doesn't round for stun, but hey), but not with pull, knockback, float etc.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

    It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

    No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

    No, you are certainly correct here.
    As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.
    But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

    The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

    Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

    That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

    By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

    EDIT:
    and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

    Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

    Yes it does.

    EDIT:
    I was incorrect. Correctly pointed out by Safandula.8723 and RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 furhter down.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

    It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

    No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

    No, you are certainly correct here.
    As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.
    But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

    The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

    Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

    That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

    By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

    EDIT:
    and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

    Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

    Yes it does.

    no it doesnt. only works on darkrazor and consumables

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BRNBRITO.9624 said:

    After playing around with those numbers some more:
    Bringing an Alacrigade would have to increase the DPS of each party member by about ~24% to break even with just bringing another DPS instead.
    (Again, For a 5 man setting). Which imo just isnt realistic.

    It can be if the renegade is the one doing most of the CC so you can actually get the 50% extra dps from breakbar without interrupting rotation or having to bundle non-stop, renegade could be around 12k for Ensolyss, good one around 15k, hard to compare when there's varying personal skill involved and without seeing the actual run/skill breakdown.

    No class is mandatory at all, you can solo most if not all fractals, but for more casual groups HB/Ren + 3 dps or 2dps + 1bs is usually the safest bet regarding boons and actually clearing without struggling too much or wiping, it's not only alacrity but also might (which most HB's don't sustain properly), CC, protection, scholar uptime, vuln, personal dps, fury/swift if pack runes (yes i've seen HB's with 0% swiftness and 0% fury uptime), etc.

    No, you are certainly correct here.
    As said, I had to make a lot of assumptions for this little number-crunch and it's 1 sample with lots of variables, so it probably doesnt mean much.
    But: For this particular encounter with this particular group: Everything the rev had to bring to the table (might, vuln, scholar uptime and whatnot) would have had to increase grp dps by 24% in order to warrant the pick over a 3rd DPS. And 24% is a quite a lot....especially considering this is one of the better grps (par the ele maybe) I have pugged CMs with.

    The rev in your group made up just about 70%-80% of the entire groups defiance bar break. Honest question, how much cc did you contribute in that group today?

    Renegade on staff 5 with sigil of paralyzation and Kalla Darkrazor's Daring is the backbone of any meta composition defiance break. Unless you want all damage dealers to use consumables multiple times, which literally causes dps loss. The renegade alone can put out the around 2k defiance bar break required, so the rest of the group does not have to, but usually just puts out the main part while dps players use 1 consumable.

    That is without accounting for NPNG, alacrity or anything else the renegade is providing.

    By the way, that arc log suggests everyone but you was doing cc, or they were terrible at their rotations.

    EDIT:
    and just because everyone takes everything personal on the forums. No, this is not me berating you for potentially not doing cc. This is simply me asking, have you considered this aspect? It could have very well been the case that your team was weaker, especially the other weaver. It happens all the time that there is difference in skill. The overall performance was good enough to complete the CM and players adapted.

    Does Sigil of paralyzation boost staff 5 as staff 5 is not a stun?

    Yes it does.

    no it doesnt. only works on darkrazor and consumables

    ah that actually could be, it's been a while since I've updated my ren. I'll run a test a bit later today before doing fractals.