Living World Access To New Players

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

I think the issue here is that the LW seasons bridge the story between expansions. If they were unrelated to the main story, I could see them being thought of as optional. But if you do not get them, you're missing parts of the main story. So new and returning players feel like they're being subjected to "hidden fees". To get the whole story, they have to pay more on top of what they've just spent.(And yeah, whether in game gold, or IRL money, they're having to pay more/again.) And "they didn't log in during the time it was available" is not really good justification. If you're new to the game, of course you haven't been logging in at least once every couple of months since LW Season 2 started releasing. If real life took you away from the game, of course you haven't been logging in at least once every couple of months while you were away. If ANet had just made LW a separate story or stories from the main story, this would really be a non-issue. Each expansion should pick up where that last one left off. And any DLC should be totally unrelated story-wise. ANet makes so many of their problems themselves.

Of course, ANet can't fix it this way now. The best thing at this point (IMO) would be for them to clearly show that LW is part of main story, and offer package deals as if the Seasons of LW are small expansions. But really, LW S2 should be considered a prolog to Heart of Thorns, and LW S3 should be considered a prolog to Path of Fire. Because that's what they actually are. Being clear with the customer about what they are and aren't getting as a part of their purchase is just good business. If I buy a series of books, shouldn't the publisher tell me that there are short story collections which include part of main plot, and that I can purchase those (necessary) stories as part of various package deals or separately? Because that is literally the case here. Original game & expansions = books, short story collections = LW Seasons. Once again, this is all because the LW seasons are part of the main story, instead of being separate and unrelated.

[Teratus.2859]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:And this is exactly what i've been warning about for years.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this, I have pointed out this major flaw in living world for many years as well as the reality that it gets worse and worse the more living world chaptors are introduced to the game.

Bringing new players to the game is all well and good but if they cannot complete the main game story despite buying both expansions then there is a serious problem there.Granted Anet have been pretty generous with expansions overall, atm you buy PoF and get full game access and HoT for free which is awesome.But you need that living world to fill in a lot of story gaps and frankly there is so much of it now that price tag is pretty bloated.Yes you can farm in game gold and buy them that way but that's a long and tedious process..

I've said for years that if you buy the special editions of expansions then they should come with the previous season of living world as a bonus.Likewise we need more living world season bundle discounts and more so.. a reasonable heads up on when that is due to happen so people have time to put money aside to buy them.It is infuriating when something you really want goes on sale in the store and you can't afford it.. specially when if you had known it was coming you could have put some money aside for it.. I recently went through this with character slots myself and missed the sale only to buy one shortly after for full price.

Living world is a big part of this game so it needs to be made easier to obtian for newer players who missed it, otherwise I see it as more of a reason for new players not to bother with this game and that's just unfortunate and I don't want anyone to feel that way about one of my favourite games.

I am a Gw2 Collectors owner as well as an owner of both HoT and PoF ultimate editions and will be adding Expansion 3's ultimate edition to this collection as well.I've played the game since Beta and been present for all the free living world over the last 8 years and i've put god knows how much into the gemstore over the years on account upgrades, keys, cosmetics, toys etc.. and that's just Gw2, I played Gw1 too for many years and invested a bit in that game as well.I think i've payed my fair share is all im saying there, so I think i've earned the status of longtime paying customer of this franchise.. so any weight that has to support my above statements please add it.

Except that you can complete the main game's story w/out spending a dime now, since it's F2P. The main game story ends at Zhaitan, after all, and you're not required to buy anything. But, let's look at this from my perspective: I am relatively new. I missed LS 1, 2 and 3. I got LS 4 for free, as I was actively playing when it released. Guess what? I harbor no resentment, or ill will. Just like I don't expect I should be able to get any rewards that were offered for special promotions for the time I wasn't here. I wasn't here, and I shouldn't get it any differently than anyone else did. If someone that was playing somehow missed a window, and had to buy content, then it shouldn't be any different for me, and it shouldn't be any different for someone that starts tomorrow.

It's not so much about the principle of it, more the negative effects of it.

Sure you can buy the core game and the expansions in one go for pretty cheap now but if you know that you are going to have to spend a significant amount of money to fill in story gaps that are not included with the paid expansions you bough then that is a big turn off for a lot of people.When you buy something you expect it to be a complete product.. not something that is essentially cut up into parts.

I'd argue including HoT with PoF is actually a worse deal than including Season 2 with HoT and Season 3 with PoF.If I were a new player I would much rather buy 2 expansions seperately with their previous living worlds included rather than buy 1 expansion and get the other for free.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Teratus.2859 said:

I'd argue including HoT with PoF is actually a worse deal than including Season 2 with HoT and Season 3 with PoF.If I were a new player I would much rather buy 2 expansions seperately with their previous living worlds included rather than buy 1 expansion and get the other for free.

Which would probably end up being the total cost of buying the LS season unlocks and the bundled expansions.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:I don't see anywhere on the purchase page where it says buying Path of Fire will give you all content in the game.It specifically states you will get Path of Fire, Heart of Thorns (free) and Living World: The Icebrood Saga.And that's what you get. No mention of Living World: Seasons 1 - 4, or even Living World: Seasons 2 - 4.

Now, that may be confusing, but, again, no statement that all available content (full game) is included. (They don't even mention Core/Vanilla Guild Wars 2.)

Not only the above is true, but even when HoT and PoF were released they didn't include the Prior LW episodes, but, and this is critical to understand; buy owning the appropriate expansion at the time any player could acquire access to LW episodes as they were released during a limited time frame for free, if you did not log in during that time frame you would still have to buy the episode at a later date as they are not technically included in the expansion(s).

[robertthebard.8150]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:And this is exactly what i've been warning about for years.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this, I have pointed out this major flaw in living world for many years as well as the reality that it gets worse and worse the more living world chaptors are introduced to the game.

Bringing new players to the game is all well and good but if they cannot complete the main game story despite buying both expansions then there is a serious problem there.Granted Anet have been pretty generous with expansions overall, atm you buy PoF and get full game access and HoT for free which is awesome.But you need that living world to fill in a lot of story gaps and frankly there is so much of it now that price tag is pretty bloated.Yes you can farm in game gold and buy them that way but that's a long and tedious process..

I've said for years that if you buy the special editions of expansions then they should come with the previous season of living world as a bonus.Likewise we need more living world season bundle discounts and more so.. a reasonable heads up on when that is due to happen so people have time to put money aside to buy them.It is infuriating when something you really want goes on sale in the store and you can't afford it.. specially when if you had known it was coming you could have put some money aside for it.. I recently went through this with character slots myself and missed the sale only to buy one shortly after for full price.

Living world is a big part of this game so it needs to be made easier to obtian for newer players who missed it, otherwise I see it as more of a reason for new players not to bother with this game and that's just unfortunate and I don't want anyone to feel that way about one of my favourite games.

I am a Gw2 Collectors owner as well as an owner of both HoT and PoF ultimate editions and will be adding Expansion 3's ultimate edition to this collection as well.I've played the game since Beta and been present for all the free living world over the last 8 years and i've put god knows how much into the gemstore over the years on account upgrades, keys, cosmetics, toys etc.. and that's just Gw2, I played Gw1 too for many years and invested a bit in that game as well.I think i've payed my fair share is all im saying there, so I think i've earned the status of longtime paying customer of this franchise.. so any weight that has to support my above statements please add it.

Except that you can complete the main game's story w/out spending a dime now, since it's F2P. The main game story ends at Zhaitan, after all, and you're not required to buy anything. But, let's look at this from my perspective: I am relatively new. I missed LS 1, 2 and 3. I got LS 4 for free, as I was actively playing when it released. Guess what? I harbor no resentment, or ill will. Just like I don't expect I should be able to get any rewards that were offered for special promotions for the time I wasn't here. I wasn't here, and I shouldn't get it any differently than anyone else did. If someone that was playing somehow missed a window, and had to buy content, then it shouldn't be any different for me, and it shouldn't be any different for someone that starts tomorrow.

It's not so much about the principle of it, more the negative effects of it.

Sure you can buy the core game and the expansions in one go for pretty cheap now but if you know that you are going to have to spend a significant amount of money to fill in story gaps that are not included with the paid expansions you bough then that is a big turn off for a lot of people.When you buy something you expect it to be a complete product.. not something that is essentially cut up into parts.

I'd argue including HoT with PoF is actually a worse deal than including Season 2 with HoT and Season 3 with PoF.If I were a new player I would much rather buy 2 expansions seperately with their previous living worlds included rather than buy 1 expansion and get the other for free.

Ok, and? I purchased HoT and PoF, and then purchased the LSs that I could that I was missing, so 2 and 3, and still spent less than I did over 6 months of DDO VIP. I get why people want to play the "new player card" in these threads, but what is it that anyone doing so is expecting? Is it that they're expecting devs to think "Hey, they're right, those new players don't understand the concept of "this was introduced for free for a limited time" so we need to change our practices"? That's what it looks like from where I'm sitting, all as a justification for things like "I'd get another account, but I don't want to have to buy all that stuff again, so they need to make concessions". I mean, it's not like I didn't offer my perspective on it, as a new player, and not as someone that got them all for free. I'd pay a sub, if I had to, in order to play. The options we have now are far cheaper than maintaining a sub all year, or for however long over a month or two.

[Teratus.2859]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:And this is exactly what i've been warning about for years.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this, I have pointed out this major flaw in living world for many years as well as the reality that it gets worse and worse the more living world chaptors are introduced to the game.

Bringing new players to the game is all well and good but if they cannot complete the main game story despite buying both expansions then there is a serious problem there.Granted Anet have been pretty generous with expansions overall, atm you buy PoF and get full game access and HoT for free which is awesome.But you need that living world to fill in a lot of story gaps and frankly there is so much of it now that price tag is pretty bloated.Yes you can farm in game gold and buy them that way but that's a long and tedious process..

I've said for years that if you buy the special editions of expansions then they should come with the previous season of living world as a bonus.Likewise we need more living world season bundle discounts and more so.. a reasonable heads up on when that is due to happen so people have time to put money aside to buy them.It is infuriating when something you really want goes on sale in the store and you can't afford it.. specially when if you had known it was coming you could have put some money aside for it.. I recently went through this with character slots myself and missed the sale only to buy one shortly after for full price.

Living world is a big part of this game so it needs to be made easier to obtian for newer players who missed it, otherwise I see it as more of a reason for new players not to bother with this game and that's just unfortunate and I don't want anyone to feel that way about one of my favourite games.

I am a Gw2 Collectors owner as well as an owner of both HoT and PoF ultimate editions and will be adding Expansion 3's ultimate edition to this collection as well.I've played the game since Beta and been present for all the free living world over the last 8 years and i've put god knows how much into the gemstore over the years on account upgrades, keys, cosmetics, toys etc.. and that's just Gw2, I played Gw1 too for many years and invested a bit in that game as well.I think i've payed my fair share is all im saying there, so I think i've earned the status of longtime paying customer of this franchise.. so any weight that has to support my above statements please add it.

Except that you can complete the main game's story w/out spending a dime now, since it's F2P. The main game story ends at Zhaitan, after all, and you're not required to buy anything. But, let's look at this from my perspective: I am relatively new. I missed LS 1, 2 and 3. I got LS 4 for free, as I was actively playing when it released. Guess what? I harbor no resentment, or ill will. Just like I don't expect I should be able to get any rewards that were offered for special promotions for the time I wasn't here. I wasn't here, and I shouldn't get it any differently than anyone else did. If someone that was playing somehow missed a window, and had to buy content, then it shouldn't be any different for me, and it shouldn't be any different for someone that starts tomorrow.

It's not so much about the principle of it, more the negative effects of it.

Sure you can buy the core game and the expansions in one go for pretty cheap now but if you know that you are going to have to spend a significant amount of money to fill in story gaps that are not included with the paid expansions you bough then that is a big turn off for a lot of people.When you buy something you expect it to be a complete product.. not something that is essentially cut up into parts.

I'd argue including HoT with PoF is actually a worse deal than including Season 2 with HoT and Season 3 with PoF.If I were a new player I would much rather buy 2 expansions seperately with their previous living worlds included rather than buy 1 expansion and get the other for free.

Ok, and? I purchased HoT and PoF, and then purchased the LSs that I could that I was missing, so 2 and 3, and still spent less than I did over 6 months of DDO VIP. I get why people want to play the "new player card" in these threads, but what is it that anyone doing so is expecting? Is it that they're expecting devs to think "Hey, they're right, those new players don't understand the concept of "this was introduced for free for a limited time" so we need to change our practices"? That's what it looks like from where I'm sitting, all as a justification for things like "I'd get another account, but I don't want to have to buy all that stuff again, so they need to make concessions". I mean, it's not like I didn't offer my perspective on it, as a new player, and not as someone that got them all for free. I'd pay a sub, if I had to, in order to play. The options we have now are far cheaper than maintaining a sub all year, or for however long over a month or two.

I would say you're in a minority on that front.From personal experience I've tried to get many of my friends into Gw2, several of them back into Gw2 as they used to play back in the day before expansions.The one thing that makes all of them decide not to is becuase of how much living world they would have to buy to catch up.It's not so much the price that bothers them although it is a contributing factor, it's their placement in the game's story that bothers them most of all.Simply put they do not want to buy 2 expansions that are seperated by 2 seasons of content they have to buy seperately to understand the story and they are not ok with skipping ahead to play the content they have bought and then going back at a later time.

Considering they want to play it together they also don't want to have everyone buy the expansions and then wait around for everyones financial situation to allow for filling in the living world stuff.It's just too messy and ultimately puts them off coming back to the game.

[Seera.5916]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:And this is exactly what i've been warning about for years.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this, I have pointed out this major flaw in living world for many years as well as the reality that it gets worse and worse the more living world chaptors are introduced to the game.

Bringing new players to the game is all well and good but if they cannot complete the main game story despite buying both expansions then there is a serious problem there.Granted Anet have been pretty generous with expansions overall, atm you buy PoF and get full game access and HoT for free which is awesome.But you need that living world to fill in a lot of story gaps and frankly there is so much of it now that price tag is pretty bloated.Yes you can farm in game gold and buy them that way but that's a long and tedious process..

I've said for years that if you buy the special editions of expansions then they should come with the previous season of living world as a bonus.Likewise we need more living world season bundle discounts and more so.. a reasonable heads up on when that is due to happen so people have time to put money aside to buy them.It is infuriating when something you really want goes on sale in the store and you can't afford it.. specially when if you had known it was coming you could have put some money aside for it.. I recently went through this with character slots myself and missed the sale only to buy one shortly after for full price.

Living world is a big part of this game so it needs to be made easier to obtian for newer players who missed it, otherwise I see it as more of a reason for new players not to bother with this game and that's just unfortunate and I don't want anyone to feel that way about one of my favourite games.

I am a Gw2 Collectors owner as well as an owner of both HoT and PoF ultimate editions and will be adding Expansion 3's ultimate edition to this collection as well.I've played the game since Beta and been present for all the free living world over the last 8 years and i've put god knows how much into the gemstore over the years on account upgrades, keys, cosmetics, toys etc.. and that's just Gw2, I played Gw1 too for many years and invested a bit in that game as well.I think i've payed my fair share is all im saying there, so I think i've earned the status of longtime paying customer of this franchise.. so any weight that has to support my above statements please add it.

Except that you can complete the main game's story w/out spending a dime now, since it's F2P. The main game story ends at Zhaitan, after all, and you're not required to buy anything. But, let's look at this from my perspective: I am relatively new. I missed LS 1, 2 and 3. I got LS 4 for free, as I was actively playing when it released. Guess what? I harbor no resentment, or ill will. Just like I don't expect I should be able to get any rewards that were offered for special promotions for the time I wasn't here. I wasn't here, and I shouldn't get it any differently than anyone else did. If someone that was playing somehow missed a window, and had to buy content, then it shouldn't be any different for me, and it shouldn't be any different for someone that starts tomorrow.

It's not so much about the principle of it, more the negative effects of it.

Sure you can buy the core game and the expansions in one go for pretty cheap now but if you know that you are going to have to spend a significant amount of money to fill in story gaps that are not included with the paid expansions you bough then that is a big turn off for a lot of people.When you buy something you expect it to be a complete product.. not something that is essentially cut up into parts.

I'd argue including HoT with PoF is actually a worse deal than including Season 2 with HoT and Season 3 with PoF.If I were a new player I would much rather buy 2 expansions seperately with their previous living worlds included rather than buy 1 expansion and get the other for free.

Ok, and? I purchased HoT and PoF, and then purchased the LSs that I could that I was missing, so 2 and 3, and still spent less than I did over 6 months of DDO VIP. I get why people want to play the "new player card" in these threads, but what is it that anyone doing so is expecting? Is it that they're expecting devs to think "Hey, they're right, those new players don't understand the concept of "this was introduced for free for a limited time" so we need to change our practices"? That's what it looks like from where I'm sitting, all as a justification for things like "I'd get another account, but I don't want to have to buy all that stuff again, so they need to make concessions". I mean, it's not like I didn't offer my perspective on it, as a new player, and not as someone that got them all for free. I'd pay a sub, if I had to, in order to play. The options we have now are far cheaper than maintaining a sub all year, or for however long over a month or two.

I would say you're in a minority on that front.From personal experience I've tried to get many of my friends into Gw2, several of them back into Gw2 as they used to play back in the day before expansions.The one thing that makes all of them decide not to is becuase of how much living world they would have to buy to catch up.It's not so much the price that bothers them although it is a contributing factor, it's their placement in the game's story that bothers them most of all.Simply put they do not want to buy 2 expansions that are seperated by 2 seasons of content they have to buy seperately to understand the story and they are not ok with skipping ahead to play the content they have bought and then going back at a later time.

Considering they want to play it together they also don't want to have everyone buy the expansions and then wait around for everyones financial situation to allow for filling in the living world stuff.It's just too messy and ultimately puts them off coming back to the game.

I wouldn't claim either side was a majority or a minority. There's also the minority that doesn't care for the story and only tolerates it long enough for things locked behind the story.

Really only Living Story 3 and on needs to be purchased to get the bulk of the story. Since Living Story 2 does not have maps that are locked to players with the Living Story unlocked, friends can tag along for the ride and enter the instances with players. The only thing would miss is anything that would only show up to a player during the portions that are open world in dialogue menus with NPC's. And nothing there is super critical to the story I don't recall.

I would liken it to the way Sims 4 does its additional packs. HoT and PoF are expansion packs. Living Story are game packs. They add a little extra game play for a smaller cost than an expansion pack. ANet however encourages players to at least log into the game by offering those game packs for free if you log in during the time that they are the most recently released story.

By the time your friends finished the HoT story, they would know if they wanted to spend more money for Living Story 3 or not. Or have earned enough gold to convert to gems to do so.

And speaking as someone who barely did any of Living Story 3 and has completed PoF's story, I wasn't that confused by things. I could still follow the story and anything crucial was referenced. I might not know the exact how certain things happened, but that they happened.

Could they offer a bundle with the EP or EP's that includes the Living Story chapters at a discount? Yes, and they do offer a discounted Living World Season 2 at check out when purchasing the game - they should add Living Story Season 3 and 4.

Could they do a better job of communicating the fact that there are "game packs" with additional story that bridge the gap between the expansion packs that have to be purchased unless you log in while they are being released? Yes.

But it's not unreasonable for them to ask for players to buy the content that they've spent time working on. We active players should actually be glad that they give them out for free if we're logged in. What other game gives content away regularly for free to active players that doesn't have a more aggressive cash shop (aka pay to win) or a subscription model?

[robertthebard.8150]

@holodoc.5748 said:

@"robertthebard.8150" said:

Ok, and? I purchased HoT and PoF, and then purchased the LSs that I could that I was missing, so 2 and 3, and still spent less than I did over 6 months of DDO VIP. I get why people want to play the "new player card" in these threads, but what is it that anyone doing so is expecting? Is it that they're expecting devs to think "Hey, they're right, those new players don't understand the concept of "this was introduced for free for a limited time" so we need to change our practices"?

No, what they are expecting is that when they buy the Ultimate package for 80€ they don't end up missing almost half the content which, excluding the sales, would require them to pay additional 40€ to unlock.

This is a hidden cost that ANet has continuously refused to clearly disclose to the potential buyers and a limitation that particularly affects new players as a group of people which is bound to not be aware of this issue.

They're not missing any of the content they bought, it's all there. That's like going to see The Lord of the Rings movies, and expecting the theater to show the Hobbit series first, so you don't miss how Bilbo got the ring...

[Teratus.2859]

@Seera.5916 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:And this is exactly what i've been warning about for years.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this, I have pointed out this major flaw in living world for many years as well as the reality that it gets worse and worse the more living world chaptors are introduced to the game.

Bringing new players to the game is all well and good but if they cannot complete the main game story despite buying both expansions then there is a serious problem there.Granted Anet have been pretty generous with expansions overall, atm you buy PoF and get full game access and HoT for free which is awesome.But you need that living world to fill in a lot of story gaps and frankly there is so much of it now that price tag is pretty bloated.Yes you can farm in game gold and buy them that way but that's a long and tedious process..

I've said for years that if you buy the special editions of expansions then they should come with the previous season of living world as a bonus.Likewise we need more living world season bundle discounts and more so.. a reasonable heads up on when that is due to happen so people have time to put money aside to buy them.It is infuriating when something you really want goes on sale in the store and you can't afford it.. specially when if you had known it was coming you could have put some money aside for it.. I recently went through this with character slots myself and missed the sale only to buy one shortly after for full price.

Living world is a big part of this game so it needs to be made easier to obtian for newer players who missed it, otherwise I see it as more of a reason for new players not to bother with this game and that's just unfortunate and I don't want anyone to feel that way about one of my favourite games.

I am a Gw2 Collectors owner as well as an owner of both HoT and PoF ultimate editions and will be adding Expansion 3's ultimate edition to this collection as well.I've played the game since Beta and been present for all the free living world over the last 8 years and i've put god knows how much into the gemstore over the years on account upgrades, keys, cosmetics, toys etc.. and that's just Gw2, I played Gw1 too for many years and invested a bit in that game as well.I think i've payed my fair share is all im saying there, so I think i've earned the status of longtime paying customer of this franchise.. so any weight that has to support my above statements please add it.

Except that you can complete the main game's story w/out spending a dime now, since it's F2P. The main game story ends at Zhaitan, after all, and you're not required to buy anything. But, let's look at this from my perspective: I am relatively new. I missed LS 1, 2 and 3. I got LS 4 for free, as I was actively playing when it released. Guess what? I harbor no resentment, or ill will. Just like I don't expect I should be able to get any rewards that were offered for special promotions for the time I wasn't here. I wasn't here, and I shouldn't get it any differently than anyone else did. If someone that was playing somehow missed a window, and had to buy content, then it shouldn't be any different for me, and it shouldn't be any different for someone that starts tomorrow.

It's not so much about the principle of it, more the negative effects of it.

Sure you can buy the core game and the expansions in one go for pretty cheap now but if you know that you are going to have to spend a significant amount of money to fill in story gaps that are not included with the paid expansions you bough then that is a big turn off for a lot of people.When you buy something you expect it to be a complete product.. not something that is essentially cut up into parts.

I'd argue including HoT with PoF is actually a worse deal than including Season 2 with HoT and Season 3 with PoF.If I were a new player I would much rather buy 2 expansions seperately with their previous living worlds included rather than buy 1 expansion and get the other for free.

Ok, and? I purchased HoT and PoF, and then purchased the LSs that I could that I was missing, so 2 and 3, and still spent less than I did over 6 months of DDO VIP. I get why people want to play the "new player card" in these threads, but what is it that anyone doing so is expecting? Is it that they're expecting devs to think "Hey, they're right, those new players don't understand the concept of "this was introduced for free for a limited time" so we need to change our practices"? That's what it looks like from where I'm sitting, all as a justification for things like "I'd get another account, but I don't want to have to buy all that stuff again, so they need to make concessions". I mean, it's not like I didn't offer my perspective on it, as a new player, and not as someone that got them all for free. I'd pay a sub, if I had to, in order to play. The options we have now are far cheaper than maintaining a sub all year, or for however long over a month or two.

I would say you're in a minority on that front.From personal experience I've tried to get many of my friends into Gw2, several of them back into Gw2 as they used to play back in the day before expansions.The one thing that makes all of them decide not to is becuase of how much living world they would have to buy to catch up.It's not so much the price that bothers them although it is a contributing factor, it's their placement in the game's story that bothers them most of all.Simply put they do not want to buy 2 expansions that are seperated by 2 seasons of content they have to buy seperately to understand the story and they are not ok with skipping ahead to play the content they have bought and then going back at a later time.

Considering they want to play it together they also don't want to have everyone buy the expansions and then wait around for everyones financial situation to allow for filling in the living world stuff.It's just too messy and ultimately puts them off coming back to the game.

I wouldn't claim either side was a majority or a minority. There's also the minority that doesn't care for the story and only tolerates it long enough for things locked behind the story.

I meant minority in regard to a new player defending the way it works currently that's all, I could be wrong but from my experiences with friends and new players etc the more common opinion of the catch up requirements is often negative rather than positive.

Really only Living Story 3 and on needs to be purchased to get the bulk of the story. Since Living Story 2 does not have maps that are locked to players with the Living Story unlocked, friends can tag along for the ride and enter the instances with players. The only thing would miss is anything that would only show up to a player during the portions that are open world in dialogue menus with NPC's. And nothing there is super critical to the story I don't recall.

Between expansions sure season 3 is important but Season 1 and 2 do fill in a lot between Personal Story and HoT too which if you are invested in the story you will want to fill those blanks in.Unfortunately that remains impossible with season 1 but hopefully not for too much longer.I think the biggest thing in season 2 that might confuse players in HoT is the Egg and Caithe going from friend to suspected enemy.That might throw a few people off if they skip season 2.

I would liken it to the way Sims 4 does its additional packs. HoT and PoF are expansion packs. Living Story are game packs. They add a little extra game play for a smaller cost than an expansion pack. ANet however encourages players to at least log into the game by offering those game packs for free if you log in during the time that they are the most recently released story.

By the time your friends finished the HoT story, they would know if they wanted to spend more money for Living Story 3 or not. Or have earned enough gold to convert to gems to do so.

It's not that they didn't know if they wanted to spend money on the game or not, more that they wanted to buy an expansion and get everything they needed upto that expansion in a single payment which is usually how DLC/expansions work.They didn't want to buy 2 expansions and have to buy the filler inbetween them seperately.. it just made it akward due to everyones different financial situations controlling who could buy what and when, they were basically left with a choice of leave people behind or spend money on content you wont play for potentially months until all your friends can afford it.. it was just messy and everyone just felt like it wasn't worth it.

And speaking as someone who barely did any of Living Story 3 and has completed PoF's story, I wasn't that confused by things. I could still follow the story and anything crucial was referenced. I might not know the exact how certain things happened, but that they happened.

For some people that's fine but for others it's something they can't do.Personally can relate there, skipping story bugs me immensely.. it's why I have no characters half way through PoF without having done literally every story episode prior to it.. I just can't do it.It's also why the absense of living world 1 really bothers me too XD

But it's not unreasonable for them to ask for players to buy the content that they've spent time working on. We active players should actually be glad that they give them out for free if we're logged in. What other game gives content away regularly for free to active players that doesn't have a more aggressive cash shop (aka pay to win) or a subscription model?

I'm not asking for them to be made free, just more sensible.Rather than Buy PoF and get HoT free It would be better if they did, Buy HoT, get season 2 free and likewise the same for PoF and season 3.They'd make the same amount of money if not more and it would just be a cleaner method of distribution that doesn't totally botch the story continuity like the current one does.They can still have their big HoT/PoF bundle too it would just be a tad more expensive and contain 2 seasons of living world with it.. hell they could even keep the current deal too for those who just want the expansions and don't give a toss about the story.Guess what i'm asking for is simply options that appeal to a larger audience to entice more people to come play this awesome game.

[gravekeeper.8352]

@Teratus.2859 said:I'm not asking for them to be made free, just more sensible.Rather than Buy PoF and get HoT free It would be better if they did, Buy HoT, get season 2 free and likewise the same for PoF and season 3.They'd make the same amount of money if not more and it would just be a cleaner method of distribution that doesn't totally botch the story continuity like the current one does.

I agree. The current situation is a mess and your suggestion is fair. Selling two expansions would be best, each containing the connecting LW season.

If ANet won't change the current offers, at the very least they should be very clear on the sales page that when you buy expansion you are still not getting the full game, as a TON of content is locked. Not independent story lines, but rather parts of the main story arc in addition to features and mechanics get paywalled (mounts, maps, farms, masteries, etc). This is not clear at all and quite disappointing really.

The game does offer huge incentive to spend on the cash shop and people do spend a fair amount, as one could easily conclude just by looking around populated zones and chatting. However I am still against both; i) main story lines being sold separately from their respective expansion packs. ii) unclear marketing for new customers not stating the need to buy such additional packages to bond the story plots.

[aspirine.6852]

If you buy the game + expansions the LS stories should be unlocked and free to play.

[Linken.6345]

@aspirine.6852 said:If you buy the game + expansions the LS stories should be unlocked and free to play.

Sure fork out full price when base game hot and pof released and Im sure anet would be happy to include living story seasons.EditThey also have to reinburst gems to the accounts that qualify and bought missing episodes before tho.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

One of the reasons the Devs bundled (Core +) Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire is so they could use past Masteries and maps when releasing new content going forward. That way very few players would be excluded.Thus, it probably would not be best to separate the expansions. Better to add the Living World Bundles to the 'additional purchases' page on the game purchase site.

[AgentMoore.9453]

It's been a long time since I was a new player, but just for funsies, I pretended to be one.

I googled Guild Wars 2, clicked the homepage for the game and was immediately met with a graphic for the newest living story. It actually takes some inspection before you find the button that says 'Play For Free' and clicking that button prompts you to make an ArenaNet account. That page also has a 'Learn More About Guild Wars 2 Play For Free', but the learn more is just the CGI marketing video of people fighting a Wyvern and a rundown of classes, fashion, and brief mentions of the guild system and PvX.

In essence, you're shown the LS right away in a graphic, but not told much about it or where it factors into the cost of the game you're being sold unless you dig. The landing page also has a 'Get Heart of Thorns FREE When You Purchase Path of Fire' link, but this gives you a rundown of the expansions only, again making no mention of living story.

You're led to think you're getting everything, but you actually aren't. That's where the problem is.

What you ought to have is a landing page advertising the latest and greatest thing in Tyria, but also a huge PLAY NOW and/or BUY NOW button front and center (not off to the side or placed in a slideshow) that concisely shows you any expansions on offer, any deals, and also every LS bundle that's been released, allowing people to see exactly what's available and get it all in one go.

Make it easier for people to give you money.

[Seera.5916]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:And this is exactly what i've been warning about for years.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this, I have pointed out this major flaw in living world for many years as well as the reality that it gets worse and worse the more living world chaptors are introduced to the game.

Bringing new players to the game is all well and good but if they cannot complete the main game story despite buying both expansions then there is a serious problem there.Granted Anet have been pretty generous with expansions overall, atm you buy PoF and get full game access and HoT for free which is awesome.But you need that living world to fill in a lot of story gaps and frankly there is so much of it now that price tag is pretty bloated.Yes you can farm in game gold and buy them that way but that's a long and tedious process..

I've said for years that if you buy the special editions of expansions then they should come with the previous season of living world as a bonus.Likewise we need more living world season bundle discounts and more so.. a reasonable heads up on when that is due to happen so people have time to put money aside to buy them.It is infuriating when something you really want goes on sale in the store and you can't afford it.. specially when if you had known it was coming you could have put some money aside for it.. I recently went through this with character slots myself and missed the sale only to buy one shortly after for full price.

Living world is a big part of this game so it needs to be made easier to obtian for newer players who missed it, otherwise I see it as more of a reason for new players not to bother with this game and that's just unfortunate and I don't want anyone to feel that way about one of my favourite games.

I am a Gw2 Collectors owner as well as an owner of both HoT and PoF ultimate editions and will be adding Expansion 3's ultimate edition to this collection as well.I've played the game since Beta and been present for all the free living world over the last 8 years and i've put god knows how much into the gemstore over the years on account upgrades, keys, cosmetics, toys etc.. and that's just Gw2, I played Gw1 too for many years and invested a bit in that game as well.I think i've payed my fair share is all im saying there, so I think i've earned the status of longtime paying customer of this franchise.. so any weight that has to support my above statements please add it.

Except that you can complete the main game's story w/out spending a dime now, since it's F2P. The main game story ends at Zhaitan, after all, and you're not required to buy anything. But, let's look at this from my perspective: I am relatively new. I missed LS 1, 2 and 3. I got LS 4 for free, as I was actively playing when it released. Guess what? I harbor no resentment, or ill will. Just like I don't expect I should be able to get any rewards that were offered for special promotions for the time I wasn't here. I wasn't here, and I shouldn't get it any differently than anyone else did. If someone that was playing somehow missed a window, and had to buy content, then it shouldn't be any different for me, and it shouldn't be any different for someone that starts tomorrow.

It's not so much about the principle of it, more the negative effects of it.

Sure you can buy the core game and the expansions in one go for pretty cheap now but if you know that you are going to have to spend a significant amount of money to fill in story gaps that are not included with the paid expansions you bough then that is a big turn off for a lot of people.When you buy something you expect it to be a complete product.. not something that is essentially cut up into parts.

I'd argue including HoT with PoF is actually a worse deal than including Season 2 with HoT and Season 3 with PoF.If I were a new player I would much rather buy 2 expansions seperately with their previous living worlds included rather than buy 1 expansion and get the other for free.

Ok, and? I purchased HoT and PoF, and then purchased the LSs that I could that I was missing, so 2 and 3, and still spent less than I did over 6 months of DDO VIP. I get why people want to play the "new player card" in these threads, but what is it that anyone doing so is expecting? Is it that they're expecting devs to think "Hey, they're right, those new players don't understand the concept of "this was introduced for free for a limited time" so we need to change our practices"? That's what it looks like from where I'm sitting, all as a justification for things like "I'd get another account, but I don't want to have to buy all that stuff again, so they need to make concessions". I mean, it's not like I didn't offer my perspective on it, as a new player, and not as someone that got them all for free. I'd pay a sub, if I had to, in order to play. The options we have now are far cheaper than maintaining a sub all year, or for however long over a month or two.

I would say you're in a minority on that front.From personal experience I've tried to get many of my friends into Gw2, several of them back into Gw2 as they used to play back in the day before expansions.The one thing that makes all of them decide not to is becuase of how much living world they would have to buy to catch up.It's not so much the price that bothers them although it is a contributing factor, it's their placement in the game's story that bothers them most of all.Simply put they do not want to buy 2 expansions that are seperated by 2 seasons of content they have to buy seperately to understand the story and they are not ok with skipping ahead to play the content they have bought and then going back at a later time.

Considering they want to play it together they also don't want to have everyone buy the expansions and then wait around for everyones financial situation to allow for filling in the living world stuff.It's just too messy and ultimately puts them off coming back to the game.

I wouldn't claim either side was a majority or a minority. There's also the minority that doesn't care for the story and only tolerates it long enough for things locked behind the story.

I meant minority in regard to a new player defending the way it works currently that's all, I could be wrong but from my experiences with friends and new players etc the more common opinion of the catch up requirements is often negative rather than positive.

Really only Living Story 3 and on needs to be purchased to get the bulk of the story. Since Living Story 2 does not have maps that are locked to players with the Living Story unlocked, friends can tag along for the ride and enter the instances with players. The only thing would miss is anything that would only show up to a player during the portions that are open world in dialogue menus with NPC's. And nothing there is super critical to the story I don't recall.

Between expansions sure season 3 is important but Season 1 and 2 do fill in a lot between Personal Story and HoT too which if you are invested in the story you will want to fill those blanks in.Unfortunately that remains impossible with season 1 but hopefully not for too much longer.I think the biggest thing in season 2 that might confuse players in HoT is the Egg and Caithe going from friend to suspected enemy.That might throw a few people off if they skip season 2.

I would liken it to the way Sims 4 does its additional packs. HoT and PoF are expansion packs. Living Story are game packs. They add a little extra game play for a smaller cost than an expansion pack. ANet however encourages players to at least log into the game by offering those game packs for free if you log in during the time that they are the most recently released story.

By the time your friends finished the HoT story, they would know if they wanted to spend more money for Living Story 3 or not. Or have earned enough gold to convert to gems to do so.

It's not that they didn't know if they wanted to spend money on the game or not, more that they wanted to buy an expansion and get everything they needed upto that expansion in a single payment which is usually how DLC/expansions work.They didn't want to buy 2 expansions and have to buy the filler inbetween them seperately.. it just made it akward due to everyones different financial situations controlling who could buy what and when, they were basically left with a choice of leave people behind or spend money on content you wont play for potentially months until all your friends can afford it.. it was just messy and everyone just felt like it wasn't worth it.

And speaking as someone who barely did any of Living Story 3 and has completed PoF's story, I wasn't that confused by things. I could still follow the story and anything crucial was referenced. I might not know the exact how certain things happened, but that they happened.

For some people that's fine but for others it's something they can't do.Personally can relate there, skipping story bugs me immensely.. it's why I have no characters half way through PoF without having done literally every story episode prior to it.. I just can't do it.It's also why the absense of living world 1 really bothers me too XD

But it's not unreasonable for them to ask for players to buy the content that they've spent time working on. We active players should actually be glad that they give them out for free if we're logged in. What other game gives content away regularly for free to active players that doesn't have a more aggressive cash shop (aka pay to win) or a subscription model?

I'm not asking for them to be made free, just more sensible.Rather than Buy PoF and get HoT free It would be better if they did, Buy HoT, get season 2 free and likewise the same for PoF and season 3.They'd make the same amount of money if not more and it would just be a cleaner method of distribution that doesn't totally botch the story continuity like the current one does.They can still have their big HoT/PoF bundle too it would just be a tad more expensive and contain 2 seasons of living world with it.. hell they could even keep the current deal too for those who just want the expansions and don't give a toss about the story.Guess what i'm asking for is simply options that appeal to a larger audience to entice more people to come play this awesome game.

And I gave the solution for the Season 2 story. Have someone who can afford it to buy it and they can run up to 4 players who can't afford it through the story at a time. None of the maps Season 2 brought to the game are locked to players who unlocked/purchased the living story.

That still doesn't address the fact that by the time they got through the core story, had played Season 2 alongside someone who had the ability to purchase Season 2 (which is offered as a bundle on the sale page), and then played HoT, a new player would likely have the gold to buy season 3. Or enjoy content that would help them earn the gold to buy season 3.

Also remember the Living Story episodes can be purchased by using gems and you can convert gold to gems. Which means that players strapped for cash in real life can use time in game to earn gold to turn into gems to buy the Living Story. Or you and your friends that could buy the story outright can also give gold to your friends who can't to help them convert the required gold to gems.

There's a lot of content in this game to spend time on if you wanted to do the story together but had to wait for friends to earn money/gold to buy the episodes. Dungeons, Fractals (and their masteries), WvW, PvP, Core Tyria and HoT map exploration, World bosses, jumping puzzles, Core Tyria and HoT achievement hunting, Core map masteries (auto loot, precursor crafting, etc), HoT map masteries (gliding being the big one), creating additional characters to level up, crafting, among other things.

It's unreasonable to ask ANet to give content away for free. It's fine to ask for a discount on Living Story if bundling with an expansion pack. But asking for it for free is unreasonable. ANet needs to make money. They're nice by giving the story away for free to players who are currently at least logging into the game while that chapter is active.

They do have a discounted Season 2 bundle (60% of the total cost, the gem store sales are usually 80% of the total cost) when buying the expansion packs. They really do need to put at least Season 3 on there with at least the same level of discount. And then do the same with LS4 and the Icebrood Saga and future LS and Sagas released when EP3 comes out.

But my other points still stand for ways around it for your friends.

[gravekeeper.8352]

@Seera.5916 said:It's unreasonable to ask ANet to give content away for free. It's fine to ask for a discount on Living Story if bundling with an expansion pack. But asking for it for free is unreasonable. ANet needs to make money. They're nice by giving the story away for free to players who are currently at least logging into the game while that chapter is active.

The original Guild Wars had paid DLC episodes that were totally parallel to the main story arc. That was awesome and I bought all of them!The problem with Guild Wars 2 is that customers buy the full product offered by ANet's website, which is advertised as being complete (including past expansion), as mentioned in the post above yours, thinking they'd get the full story. A few days afterwards they find out they have to pay for multiple packages in order to get the main story. That's not OK.

[Seera.5916]

@gravekeeper.8352 said:

@Seera.5916 said:It's unreasonable to ask ANet to give content away for free. It's fine to ask for a discount on Living Story if bundling with an expansion pack. But asking for it for free is unreasonable. ANet needs to make money. They're nice by giving the story away for free to players who are currently at least logging into the game while that chapter is active.

The original Guild Wars had paid DLC episodes that were totally parallel to the main story arc. That was awesome and I bought all of them!The problem with Guild Wars 2 is that customers buy the full product offered by ANet's website, which is advertised as being complete (including past expansion), as mentioned in the post above yours, thinking they'd get the full story. A few days afterwards they find out they have to pay for multiple packages in order to get the main story. That's not OK.

And if you read my posts you would have seen that I agree that ANet could do a better job at making that known.

[ShadowGryphon.6257]

@Cisaro.3169 said:I couldn't play season 1

You needn't stress over it. even the people who did play Season 1 (like myself) are unable to replay it.the closest you'll get is being able to access 3 parts of season 1 via the scrying pool (yes -that- scrying pool) in Eye of the North.

[gravekeeper.8352]

@Seera.5916 said:

@gravekeeper.8352 said:

@Seera.5916 said:It's unreasonable to ask ANet to give content away for free. It's fine to ask for a discount on Living Story if bundling with an expansion pack. But asking for it for free is unreasonable. ANet needs to make money. They're nice by giving the story away for free to players who are currently at least logging into the game while that chapter is active.

The original Guild Wars had paid DLC episodes that were totally parallel to the main story arc. That was awesome and I bought all of them!The problem with Guild Wars 2 is that customers buy the full product offered by ANet's website, which is advertised as being complete (including past expansion), as mentioned in the post above yours, thinking they'd get the full story. A few days afterwards they find out they have to pay for multiple packages in order to get the main story. That's not OK.

And if you read my posts you would have seen that I agree that ANet could do a better job at making that known.

Aye, I didn't disagree with you on that statement and in general agree with your posts. The point of the quote was just to bring another information to the discussion, not to disagree.

[tetsuo.7318]

As a returning player that quit shortly after release this is a huge problem for me and might make me drop the game again. I just got the 2 xpacks and i can't even play them cause the story wouldn't make any sense whatsoever without shelling out more money and i only found this out after i bought POF. I have no problems paying for additional content but this feels a bit shady since this content is actually required if you just want to follow the story.

[Linken.6345]

@tetsuo.7318 said:As a returning player that quit shortly after release this is a huge problem for me and might make me drop the game again. I just got the 2 xpacks and i can't even play them cause the story wouldn't make any sense whatsoever without shelling out more money and i only found this out after i bought POF. I have no problems paying for additional content but this feels a bit shady since this content is actually required if you just want to follow the story.

Your paying 30 bucks for something most payed 60+30 hot and pof.And your complaning about the living story addons?Watch youtube or read the wiki if you dont want to buy the episodes mate.

[tetsuo.7318]

@Linken.6345 said:

@tetsuo.7318 said:As a returning player that quit shortly after release this is a huge problem for me and might make me drop the game again. I just got the 2 xpacks and i can't even play them cause the story wouldn't make any sense whatsoever without shelling out more money and i only found this out after i bought POF. I have no problems paying for additional content but this feels a bit shady since this content is actually required if you just want to follow the story.

Your paying 30 bucks for something most payed 60+30 hot and pof.And your complaning about the living story addons?Watch youtube or read the wiki if you dont want to buy the episodes mate.

Again i don't have a problem paying for content but it's not very clear this is not included in the xpacks and the story is incomplete without it.

I'm not youtubing it i will just simply leave the game and play something else and i don't think i'm the only new/returning player doing so looking a this thread.Every other MMO on the market makes it easier for new players to catch up and not harder this doesn't make any sense.I just thought the devs might be interested in some feedback before that considering the game doesn't seem to do so well atm i don't think it's a great idea to scare away more potential new costumers.

[kharmin.7683]

@tetsuo.7318 said:Every other MMO on the market makes it easier for new players to catch up and not harder this doesn't make any sense.Wouldn't one have to purchase all of the DLC in other MMOs to catch up in them, too? I don't see the difference here.I just thought the devs might be interested in some feedback before that considering the game doesn't seem to do so well atm i don't think it's a great idea to scare away more potential new costumers.Jaded perspective. Game is doing just fine, thank you.

[tetsuo.7318]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@tetsuo.7318 said:Every other MMO on the market makes it easier for new players to catch up and not harder this doesn't make any sense.Wouldn't one have to purchase all of the DLC in other MMOs to catch up in them, too? I don't see the difference here.I just thought the devs might be interested in some feedback before that considering the game doesn't seem to do so well atm i don't think it's a great idea to scare away more potential new costumers.Jaded perspective. Game is doing just fine, thank you.

The only other b2p MMO or even f2p MMO i know doing something even remotely similiar is ESO and you can unlock everything with a sub there (which has a lot of other perks on top of that including shop currency to unlock them forever) also DLCs are self contained and don't impact the main story in any way, no other MMO on the market is selling crucial parts of the main story like this.

[Super Hayes.6890]

Anet does their own thing. I like that they are different from other MMO's. I have to agree, however, that it is not clear that you aren't getting some of the story with your purchase on the two expansions right now. The Living Story episodes should continue to cost money but that shouldn't be found out after purchase of the expansions. Their prices should be advertised and listed on the same media that promotes the expansions. The debate being caused here by this issue shouldn't exist. I'm sure they have their reasons.