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HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

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  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    go to any mmo and find a super easy mission with a good reward. its gonna cramped with players there.
    now go to the endgame zones with all the HARDCORE content, and see if you can find even a handful of players.
    fast and easy sells, slow and hard not so much.

    Interesting that Hot is consistently populated with players for years now, at least one map for meta at any gives time of day and packed on busy hours. That you can get a fractal group of any difficulty in 1 minute anytime and even dungeons are not an issue after all this time.
    Core Tyria, kinda empty.

    Add amalgamated gemstones to core tyria world bosses, and it would be the same. Nothing special about that. Rewards are the only thing that motivate people, for some reason.

    Why are Pof metas then less populated than Hot? They all give amalgamated gemstones. And Pof metas are easier, faster and require less people and less coordination than Hot. They are not much different than most off the longer event chains, many can be done by like 5 people. The only that is really populated is Casino Blitz.
    Besides amalgamated have dropped to 70 s lately.

    Except not really. You can say they require more coordination, and it may have seemed like it when they were new and the HoT metas were old, but they are all the same now. You just need a miracle to get people to actually do the events, instead of just standing there, waiting for someone else to do it for you as you watch netflix and wait to get rewarded.

    Effort is the bane of MMO players. They aren't faster, they are the same, but since the players can't stand in one place spamming auto-attack throughout most of the meta, they just continue to do the same old ones instead. Simple as that.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

    You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

    There are multiple ways to count players (or to be more accurate, accounts), one such hint is the fact that 50% of the total game's accounts have less than 268 Achievement Points. Which means these player accounts stopped a very long time before reaching HOT (or even the end game of Core for that matter) And that of course doesn't include all those players that quit the game much later after accumulating a lot of achievement points, by playing the game more actively. And still quit long before the expansion even hit.

    You have this actual data of 50% of the game's accounts? Or are you using GW2Efficiency to make this claim?

    I use the official leaderboards, it's not a "claim" but actual data. I don't have the data from every player in the game, only from those on my friendlist and guilds. If you want to be precise, the top player at 50% on my list has 268 AP, and the bottom player at 60% has 323 AP, so the turn point between 50% and 60% is between 268 and 323 AP. Doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

    By the way, going from 80% to 90% is between 2754 and 2889, which is also much less than the amount anyone that played the game for years would have, reinforcing the idea of most players quitting the game early (core) and not thanks to HOT.

    But it's also easy to verify using Anet's financial data and the rather sizable drop in their revenue between 2013 and 2015. The game sold 2 million copies (actual copies, not accounts) between January 2013 and August 2015 (confirmed by Arenanet), meaning a lot of their revenue in that period was from in-game purchases, which was in a steep decline. This tells us that either players indeed quit (again: long before HOT) or simply stopped paying, which for Arenanet is almost the same.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Players quitting or players not paying is definitely not the same thing. While I appreciate the argument that you're making, the claims are unsubstantiated.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Players quitting or players not paying is definitely not the same thing. While I appreciate the argument that you're making, the claims are unsubstantiated.

    What do you mean? A player with 268 achievement points reached HOT and quit after finding too difficult? A player with 268 AP hasn't even reached Orr for crying out loud.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Players quitting or players not paying is definitely not the same thing. While I appreciate the argument that you're making, the claims are unsubstantiated.

    What do you mean? A player with 268 achievement points reached HOT and quit after finding too difficult? A player with 268 AP hasn't even reached Orr for crying out loud.

    I mean that your evidence to support your point/claim is anecdotal at best, or hyperbolic at worst. You make it seem that half the player population up and quit because of HoT when you can't back that up with credible statistics. It unnecessarily fuels panic about the state of the game.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Aomine.5012Aomine.5012 Member ✭✭✭

    HoT is designed for group play when it's first launch.
    The emphasis is on replayability on every maps since HoT don't have many new maps.
    Now people moved away , HoT balance is a bit skewed.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Players quitting or players not paying is definitely not the same thing. While I appreciate the argument that you're making, the claims are unsubstantiated.

    What do you mean? A player with 268 achievement points reached HOT and quit after finding too difficult? A player with 268 AP hasn't even reached Orr for crying out loud.

    I mean that your evidence to support your point/claim is anecdotal at best, or hyperbolic at worst. You make it seem that half the player population up and quit because of HoT when you can't back that up with credible statistics. It unnecessarily fuels panic about the state of the game.

    How did you come to the conclusion that half the player population quit because of HOT? The statistics I provided indicate (with credibility) that more than half the population quit before HOT was even announced. I don't see how is that a secret or even something that fuels panic.

    The game sold 5 million copies before the launch of HOT. If those 5 million sales were still playing the game when HOT was released, then HOT revenue would've been much hotter (pun intended)

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok, I disagree. Your statistics are not credible in that they do not account for all accounts. Only Anet has this information. At any rate, I'm not going to argue this further with you since we cannot agree on a common ground from which to even begin to debate.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Ok, I disagree. Your statistics are not credible in that they do not account for all accounts. Only Anet has this information. At any rate, I'm not going to argue this further with you since we cannot agree on a common ground from which to even begin to debate.

    What do you mean they do not account for all accounts? They are the official leaderboards and they contain data from every account in the game.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Ok, I disagree. Your statistics are not credible in that they do not account for all accounts. Only Anet has this information. At any rate, I'm not going to argue this further with you since we cannot agree on a common ground from which to even begin to debate.

    What do you mean they do not account for all accounts? They are the official leaderboards and they contain data from every account in the game.

    I think @kharmin.7683 is just misunderstanding your point, doc. You're clearly arguing that the available data strongly suggests that a big chunk of people quit the game well before HoT was a thing, but khar seems to be thinking that you're one of the people blaming HoT itself for the quitting.

    I've also taken a look at the leaderboards, and noticed the same things you did, @maddoctor.2738, and came to the same conclusions. An absolutely staggering number of people seem to quit playing before experiencing even a small proportion of what the overall game has to offer. Just on the path to my first level 80 character (no xpacs purchased at the time), I think I ended up with 4K AP just from going to different places and trying different things. I certainly don't believe HoT drove away as many players as the complainers claim it did.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @kharmin.7683 a bit of "explaining":
    Go here: https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/en/eu/achievements and login, in the filter dropdown you can select Friends, to show players on your friend list, or Guild which will allow you to select one of your guilds if you are in multiple ones.
    The first column on the list shows your position if you are in the top 1000 in the game. So if it shows 521, you are in 521st place of all the accounts in your region (NA or EU)
    If the first column is a percentage, which will usually be, it shows how much of the playerbase is under you in AP. So if it shows 90%, you are in the top 10% of the playerbase, if it shows 50%, you are at the middle point. Note: this is the total of every single account in your region, it's not 90% of your friends or 90% of your guild. It's 90% of the entire playerbase, so it's official and accurate.

    The second column is the account's name, the third column is amount of AP they have and the fourth the home server they play from.

    As I said in my earlier post:

    If you want to be precise, the top player at 50% on my list has 268 AP, and the bottom player at 60% has 323 AP, so the turn point between 50% and 60% is between 268 and 323 AP.

    If you want to do the same thought process, open your friend list or a guild list on that website and figure out where a percentage changes, in my example above I found the player in my list(s) with the highest number of AP at 50% and compared it to the lowest number of AP someone at 60% has, this way I can get a pretty accurate number of where the percentages change, in the example above the change from above 50% to above 60% of the playerbase is between 268 and 323.

    It's statistics available to everyone and it gets more accurate, the more friends and the more guilds you have. I can tell the change point is between 268 and 323, but to find a more accurate number I need to find players, and add them in my friend list, that have between those two numbers to get a more accurate result. But still it's both official data AND for the entire playerbase, if official statistics about every account in the game isn't "credible" enough for you, then I don't know what is.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    Why are Pof metas then less populated than Hot? They all give amalgamated gemstones. And Pof metas are easier, faster and require less people and less coordination than Hot. They are not much different than most off the longer event chains, many can be done by like 5 people. The only that is really populated is Casino Blitz.
    Besides amalgamated have dropped to 70 s lately.

    Except not really. You can say they require more coordination, and it may have seemed like it when they were new and the HoT metas were old, but they are all the same now. You just need a miracle to get people to actually do the events, instead of just standing there, waiting for someone else to do it for you as you watch netflix and wait to get rewarded.

    Effort is the bane of MMO players. They aren't faster, they are the same, but since the players can't stand in one place spamming auto-attack throughout most of the meta, they just continue to do the same old ones instead. Simple as that.

    Junundu, Maw, Augury you can do with ~ 5 people. Maybe I'm exaggerating with Maw but the other 2 I have done with 5 maybe even less. The events are basically just straight lines. Maw and Junundu give an impression of more than one lane but in reality, you can just do them one after another.
    Casino blitz and Treasure hunt don't even require any cooperation at all. You are basically solo. You need like 8 people to get enough coins in blitz.
    The only real meta is Vabbi.

    Dragon Stand you need around 45 people for the merry go around phase. You need 3 groups (commanders are really welcome, won't say necessary) that later split into 6 groups for the merry go around and boss on all 3 lanes. Now to be sure of success I would say 60 people is much better than 45.

    Gerrent I would say you need 40 people. A few less would maybe do but more won't hurt also to be sure of success. There is not much cooperation beyond splitting into lanes and not letting chak getting to cannon but it is not even comparable to Pof simplicity.
    Could go on but the point is no, they are not even closely the same. Only Verdant Brink is easy comparable if you only come for the Matriarch kill.

    You can probably do most of the Pof metas in the time you do DS. And still Hot metas are full all the time. Also there certainly is effort required. Yes you can be part of the cannon fodder and just 1111 through DS or Gerrent. But for you to do it you need at least a few people that put in the effort of putting up tags and communicating the lanes in order.

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    New/returning players didn't play/have season 2, so those who simply followed the story went from Orr to HoT. When Steam floods in, it's going to be a repeat.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Ok, I disagree. Your statistics are not credible in that they do not account for all accounts. Only Anet has this information. At any rate, I'm not going to argue this further with you since we cannot agree on a common ground from which to even begin to debate.

    What do you mean they do not account for all accounts? They are the official leaderboards and they contain data from every account in the game.

    I'd be surpised if i'm even on that leaderboard, i've not done PvP, WvW in like 6 to 8 years, and raids i've never done and fractals again 3 years or so.

    I just checked my account is not even on those leaderboards even after logging in..

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's why I stopped debating. The threshold of evidence isn't supported.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I just checked my account is not even on those leaderboards even after logging in..

    You're looking at the wrong section. Everyone is on the achievement leaderboards, which is how I can tell you're on Sea or Sorrows.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

    You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

    There are multiple ways to count players (or to be more accurate, accounts), one such hint is the fact that 50% of the total game's accounts have less than 268 Achievement Points. Which means these player accounts stopped a very long time before reaching HOT (or even the end game of Core for that matter) And that of course doesn't include all those players that quit the game much later after accumulating a lot of achievement points, by playing the game more actively. And still quit long before the expansion even hit.

    You have this actual data of 50% of the game's accounts? Or are you using GW2Efficiency to make this claim?

    I use the official leaderboards, it's not a "claim" but actual data. I don't have the data from every player in the game, only from those on my friendlist and guilds. If you want to be precise, the top player at 50% on my list has 268 AP, and the bottom player at 60% has 323 AP, so the turn point between 50% and 60% is between 268 and 323 AP. Doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

    By the way, going from 80% to 90% is between 2754 and 2889, which is also much less than the amount anyone that played the game for years would have, reinforcing the idea of most players quitting the game early (core) and not thanks to HOT.

    But it's also easy to verify using Anet's financial data and the rather sizable drop in their revenue between 2013 and 2015. The game sold 2 million copies (actual copies, not accounts) between January 2013 and August 2015 (confirmed by Arenanet), meaning a lot of their revenue in that period was from in-game purchases, which was in a steep decline. This tells us that either players indeed quit (again: long before HOT) or simply stopped paying, which for Arenanet is almost the same.

    which is the same period, that they had a long content drought , right?

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Ok, I disagree. Your statistics are not credible in that they do not account for all accounts. Only Anet has this information. At any rate, I'm not going to argue this further with you since we cannot agree on a common ground from which to even begin to debate.

    What do you mean they do not account for all accounts? They are the official leaderboards and they contain data from every account in the game.

    I think @kharmin.7683 is just misunderstanding your point, doc. You're clearly arguing that the available data strongly suggests that a big chunk of people quit the game well before HoT was a thing, but khar seems to be thinking that you're one of the people blaming HoT itself for the quitting.

    I've also taken a look at the leaderboards, and noticed the same things you did, @maddoctor.2738, and came to the same conclusions. An absolutely staggering number of people seem to quit playing before experiencing even a small proportion of what the overall game has to offer. Just on the path to my first level 80 character (no xpacs purchased at the time), I think I ended up with 4K AP just from going to different places and trying different things. I certainly don't believe HoT drove away as many players as the complainers claim it did.

    even the BEST MMO IN HISTORY loses 80 % of the players before lvl 20
    how many mmos have you tried? how many of them did you uninstall in the first hour?
    they still had over a mio that was ready to pay for the expansion, that means, that core is roughly on par with wow in that regard
    this means, that core performed well indeed (even with the horrible ending), and hot didnt

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    Ok, I disagree. Your statistics are not credible in that they do not account for all accounts. Only Anet has this information. At any rate, I'm not going to argue this further with you since we cannot agree on a common ground from which to even begin to debate.

    What do you mean they do not account for all accounts? They are the official leaderboards and they contain data from every account in the game.

    I think @kharmin.7683 is just misunderstanding your point, doc. You're clearly arguing that the available data strongly suggests that a big chunk of people quit the game well before HoT was a thing, but khar seems to be thinking that you're one of the people blaming HoT itself for the quitting.

    I've also taken a look at the leaderboards, and noticed the same things you did, @maddoctor.2738, and came to the same conclusions. An absolutely staggering number of people seem to quit playing before experiencing even a small proportion of what the overall game has to offer. Just on the path to my first level 80 character (no xpacs purchased at the time), I think I ended up with 4K AP just from going to different places and trying different things. I certainly don't believe HoT drove away as many players as the complainers claim it did.

    "many " is subjective, im guessing about ½ of the remaining players left over hot, somewhere between 500k-1 mio
    in any other business, heads would had rolled for that.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I just checked my account is not even on those leaderboards even after logging in..

    You're looking at the wrong section. Everyone is on the achievement leaderboards, which is how I can tell you're on Sea or Sorrows.

    just out of curiousoty, can see you where my account is at?

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

    nope. it would be a miracle, if i have done them, but i seriously doubt it
    maybe someone can see it on my AP. it took years before i even had a lvl 80

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    even the BEST MMO IN HISTORY loses 80 % of the players before lvl 20

    Source?

    they still had over a mio that was ready to pay for the expansion, that means, that core is roughly on par with wow in that regard

    Source?

    this means, that core performed well indeed (even with the horrible ending), and hot didnt

    That's stressing it a lot.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    "many " is subjective, im guessing about ½ of the remaining players left over hot, somewhere between 500k-1 mio

    Source?

    in any other business, heads would had rolled for that.

    So head would roll if half the players left, what would happen when 4/5th of the players left thanks to Core?
    In any other business.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

    You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

    There are multiple ways to count players (or to be more accurate, accounts), one such hint is the fact that 50% of the total game's accounts have less than 268 Achievement Points. Which means these player accounts stopped a very long time before reaching HOT (or even the end game of Core for that matter) And that of course doesn't include all those players that quit the game much later after accumulating a lot of achievement points, by playing the game more actively. And still quit long before the expansion even hit.

    You have this actual data of 50% of the game's accounts? Or are you using GW2Efficiency to make this claim?

    I use the official leaderboards, it's not a "claim" but actual data. I don't have the data from every player in the game, only from those on my friendlist and guilds. If you want to be precise, the top player at 50% on my list has 268 AP, and the bottom player at 60% has 323 AP, so the turn point between 50% and 60% is between 268 and 323 AP. Doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

    By the way, going from 80% to 90% is between 2754 and 2889, which is also much less than the amount anyone that played the game for years would have, reinforcing the idea of most players quitting the game early (core) and not thanks to HOT.

    But it's also easy to verify using Anet's financial data and the rather sizable drop in their revenue between 2013 and 2015. The game sold 2 million copies (actual copies, not accounts) between January 2013 and August 2015 (confirmed by Arenanet), meaning a lot of their revenue in that period was from in-game purchases, which was in a steep decline. This tells us that either players indeed quit (again: long before HOT) or simply stopped paying, which for Arenanet is almost the same.

    which is the same period, that they had a long content drought , right?

    The content drought lasted from January 2013 to August 2015? That's... a gigantic content drought. No, in that period we got the Full Season 1 (started in January 2013) plus the full Season 2 plus the "content drought" after Season 2 ended. That ENTIRE era earned the game 2 million confirmed sales.

  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    just out of curiousoty, can see you where my account is at?

    Ruins of Surmia (EU), 4098 points, last changed May 25, 2020, rank 90%

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    I don't know about this leaderboard thing. "90%" seems to be a range band that covers everything from 3k to 30k AP.

    It's quite possible that there's just a ton of junk accounts on that list, including people who just tried the game for an hour or two, or secondary accounts that don't represent a unique player at all.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:
    I don't know about this leaderboard thing. "90%" seems to be a range band that covers everything from 3k to 30k AP.

    Yes the top 10% (above 90% of the playerbase) is anyone above ~3800 AP and up to 45k AP

    It's quite possible that there's just a ton of junk accounts created as alts and mules and whatever.

    A player with 49 AP has more AP than 20% of the accounts in this game, so it's safe to say that junk/mule/gold seller accounts are the bottom 20%

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    just out of curiousoty, can see you where my account is at?

    Ruins of Surmia (EU), 4098 points, last changed May 25, 2020, rank 90%

    thank you, dont even know, what it means
    PS top 10? holy kitten I WON....

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    even the BEST MMO IN HISTORY loses 80 % of the players before lvl 20

    Source?

    they still had over a mio that was ready to pay for the expansion, that means, that core is roughly on par with wow in that regard

    Source?

    this means, that core performed well indeed (even with the horrible ending), and hot didnt

    That's stressing it a lot.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    "many " is subjective, im guessing about ½ of the remaining players left over hot, somewhere between 500k-1 mio

    Source?

    in any other business, heads would had rolled for that.

    So head would roll if half the players left, what would happen when 4/5th of the players left thanks to Core?
    In any other business.

    it was as blizzard interview many years ago, AFAIR it was around cataclysm.
    they still had 6 mio subs back then, and had just broken the 50 mio account mark
    and even those numbers are prolly skewed, since the cataclysm exodus had already started

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Given how the game, at its best, had 400k concurrent players, when it sold 3 million copies in just 4 months, it's safe to assume that the number of populated instances required for a "Successful hot" would only be a tiny fraction of that, since the majority of players stopped playing the game thanks to the core.

    You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

    There are multiple ways to count players (or to be more accurate, accounts), one such hint is the fact that 50% of the total game's accounts have less than 268 Achievement Points. Which means these player accounts stopped a very long time before reaching HOT (or even the end game of Core for that matter) And that of course doesn't include all those players that quit the game much later after accumulating a lot of achievement points, by playing the game more actively. And still quit long before the expansion even hit.

    You have this actual data of 50% of the game's accounts? Or are you using GW2Efficiency to make this claim?

    I use the official leaderboards, it's not a "claim" but actual data. I don't have the data from every player in the game, only from those on my friendlist and guilds. If you want to be precise, the top player at 50% on my list has 268 AP, and the bottom player at 60% has 323 AP, so the turn point between 50% and 60% is between 268 and 323 AP. Doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

    By the way, going from 80% to 90% is between 2754 and 2889, which is also much less than the amount anyone that played the game for years would have, reinforcing the idea of most players quitting the game early (core) and not thanks to HOT.

    But it's also easy to verify using Anet's financial data and the rather sizable drop in their revenue between 2013 and 2015. The game sold 2 million copies (actual copies, not accounts) between January 2013 and August 2015 (confirmed by Arenanet), meaning a lot of their revenue in that period was from in-game purchases, which was in a steep decline. This tells us that either players indeed quit (again: long before HOT) or simply stopped paying, which for Arenanet is almost the same.

    which is the same period, that they had a long content drought , right?

    The content drought lasted from January 2013 to August 2015? That's... a gigantic content drought. No, in that period we got the Full Season 1 (started in January 2013) plus the full Season 2 plus the "content drought" after Season 2 ended. That ENTIRE era earned the game 2 million confirmed sales.

    a little less than 100k sales every month for an older game? sounds good to me, in what world is this not good business?
    do you know any games, that have done better? at all?

  • @Healix.5819 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    just out of curiousoty, can see you where my account is at?

    Ruins of Surmia (EU), 4098 points, last changed May 25, 2020, rank 90%

    LOL this explains a lot, both about @battledrone.8315 and the level of engagement most players (don't) have with the game.

    I still don't see any actual refutation of what @maddoctor.2738 inferred from the data (which, again, I happen to agree with). An utterly enormous proportion of registered accounts stopped playing with an utterly miniscule amount of AP. It stands to reason that this huge swath of the playerbase stopped playing before even reaching the middle of the core game.

    I know, I know - @battledrone.8315 your point is that about half the people remaining (after all those core-game-quitters) are the people you say were driven away from the game by HoT. It would be nice if you had some basis (other than you just loudly saying it is the case) for that 500K-1m figure. As it stands, you're just making things up based on your fanatically held view that HoT is too hard for everyone except elitists.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2020

    This'll be a controversial take, I know, but maybe it's absolutely useless to speculate about the desires of people who spent like half an hour in a game before deciding they didn't care for it without, like, detailed interviews and minute-by-minute metrics?

    This thread would be a lot more productive if everyone just said what you liked or hated about GW2 without pulling up old sales reports to go "ah but the lurkers agree with me in e-mail."

    ~

    For my money (that's just an expression, but also I do actually spend money on it from time to time), a variety of zones with different structure, themes, and mechanics is much better than trying to enforce the same easy-mode tutorial-land dynamic on the entire world. Does that mean I ignore some zones after doing map completion? Yup, sure does. But they're not the zones other people in this thread profess to hate. It's a big game, and most of it doesn't require endless repetition of specific content. We can both be happy, together!

    And tbh, if you want to talk about why HoT is off-putting, I think the lackluster story missions are much of a problem than a few tough baddies in open world.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:
    This'll be a controversial take, I know, but maybe it's absolutely useless to speculate about the desires of people who spent like half an hour in a game before deciding they didn't care for it without, like, detailed interviews and minute-by-minute metrics?

    The question I was answering by bringing up the achievement points was:

    You know that the majority of players that quit was due to core... how?

    Seeing how their numbers are so low it's an impossibility that they ever reached level 80, let alone played in HOT areas and disliked it. Talking about when the "majority" quit will obviously take into account those that spent half an hour in the game and then quit, because players in that category did quit because of core, which was the whole point of the answer. In order to answer the question presented.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I just checked my account is not even on those leaderboards even after logging in..

    You're looking at the wrong section. Everyone is on the achievement leaderboards, which is how I can tell you're on Sea or Sorrows.

    I wasn't i checked my sever the achievement points don't go as low as mine..

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

    Nope i'm the same didn't know those existed and don't really care that they do..

  • @Dante.1508 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I just checked my account is not even on those leaderboards even after logging in..

    You're looking at the wrong section. Everyone is on the achievement leaderboards, which is how I can tell you're on Sea or Sorrows.

    I wasn't i checked my sever the achievement points don't go as low as mine..

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

    Nope i'm the same didn't know those existed and don't really care that they do..

    You are definitely there. I added you as a friend and had a look. Your own name shows at the top regardless of filter to show your percentile. This is what I see at the top: https://imgur.com/a/FtRusqa

    If I've set the filter to friends and I scroll down, I can see you on there, as shown here:
    https://imgur.com/a/GxqqeTP

    I'm not sure what you're looking at, but you are definitely included in these leaderboards, just not high enough to get a rank that isn't given as a percentile.

  • Tekoneiric.6817Tekoneiric.6817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HoT combat HPs are designed for groups of players. There are commanders that lead groups around the maps doing HPs. Lone players trying to complete HPs just have to catch up with them. If there is tough one just send a map wide msg for help and camp it for a bit. If I'm leveling a new character I just hit the commune and easy HPs first then if I can't find a group I'll use the WvW Proofs of Heroics to complete the rest.

    HoT is visually intimidating at first but the only real difficult one is Tangled Depths. That map is basically one giant puzzle/maze. I always recommend getting basic gliding and bouncing mushrooms then jumping to PoF to get mounts before going back to work on the HoT story.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tekoneiric.6817 said:
    I always recommend getting basic gliding and bouncing mushrooms then jumping to PoF to get mounts before going back to work on the HoT story.

    Yeah, you can also get some easy HPs from the early PoF maps too.

  • Tekoneiric.6817Tekoneiric.6817 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Atomos.7593 said:

    @Tekoneiric.6817 said:
    I always recommend getting basic gliding and bouncing mushrooms then jumping to PoF to get mounts before going back to work on the HoT story.

    Yeah, you can also get some easy HPs from the early PoF maps too.

    I do that as well. Getting HPs are fairly easy since you get 10 per HoT and PoF areas. At least easy enough to complete one elite specialization finished for a character.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

    Nope i'm the same didn't know those existed and don't really care that they do..

    Toxic Alliance events spawn in starter-adjacent zones like Kessex Hills and Gendarran Fields. It's the big scary flower that gives you hallucinations, defended by Krait, Hulks, and Nightmare Court Knights that you have to stomp to death. These are actually baddies from Season 1 story but they're just part of the normal maps now.

    If you play the Season 2 story or even just the maps (Dry Top and Silverwastes), you will run into Mordrem like Terragriffs (the griffon-looking things that hit really hard) and Trashers (the spinny boys). The new enemies for HoT are the Mordrem Guard, the Chakk, and the various dinos. Other types of Mordrem are introduced slowly before you get there.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2020

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    just out of curiousoty, can see you where my account is at?

    Ruins of Surmia (EU), 4098 points, last changed May 25, 2020, rank 90%

    LOL this explains a lot, both about @battledrone.8315 and the level of engagement most players (don't) have with the game.

    I still don't see any actual refutation of what @maddoctor.2738 inferred from the data (which, again, I happen to agree with). An utterly enormous proportion of registered accounts stopped playing with an utterly miniscule amount of AP. It stands to reason that this huge swath of the playerbase stopped playing before even reaching the middle of the core game.

    I know, I know - @battledrone.8315 your point is that about half the people remaining (after all those core-game-quitters) are the people you say were driven away from the game by HoT. It would be nice if you had some basis (other than you just loudly saying it is the case) for that 500K-1m figure. As it stands, you're just making things up based on your fanatically held view that HoT is too hard for everyone except elitists.

    i am still in top 10 APs, but i have only finished one or two LWs and the core game. this spells disaster for pretty much everything other than core
    if MANY MORE players had finished MORE than me, that wouldnt be the case.
    it is actually worse than even i thought
    PS to be fair, i did spend a couple of weeks hunting APs for core masteries

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

    Nope i'm the same didn't know those existed and don't really care that they do..

    Toxic Alliance events spawn in starter-adjacent zones like Kessex Hills and Gendarran Fields. It's the big scary flower that gives you hallucinations, defended by Krait, Hulks, and Nightmare Court Knights that you have to stomp to death. These are actually baddies from Season 1 story but they're just part of the normal maps now.

    If you play the Season 2 story or even just the maps (Dry Top and Silverwastes), you will run into Mordrem like Terragriffs (the griffon-looking things that hit really hard) and Trashers (the spinny boys). The new enemies for HoT are the Mordrem Guard, the Chakk, and the various dinos. Other types of Mordrem are introduced slowly before you get there.

    doesnt ring any bells, is it the one with the weird seed pods? i did lw2, but dont like it at all
    and if i see some invasion approaching, i usually switch toons. maybe thats why.. been caught too many times alone by that

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tekoneiric.6817 said:
    HoT combat HPs are designed for groups of players. There are commanders that lead groups around the maps doing HPs. Lone players trying to complete HPs just have to catch up with them. If there is tough one just send a map wide msg for help and camp it for a bit. If I'm leveling a new character I just hit the commune and easy HPs first then if I can't find a group I'll use the WvW Proofs of Heroics to complete the rest.

    HoT is visually intimidating at first but the only real difficult one is Tangled Depths. That map is basically one giant puzzle/maze. I always recommend getting basic gliding and bouncing mushrooms then jumping to PoF to get mounts before going back to work on the HoT story.

    i wont even try to finish it. i have seen enough of it, to know that it isnt for me.
    let them find someone else to save maguma, if they can

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Cuks.8241 said:

    Why are Pof metas then less populated than Hot? They all give amalgamated gemstones. And Pof metas are easier, faster and require less people and less coordination than Hot. They are not much different than most off the longer event chains, many can be done by like 5 people. The only that is really populated is Casino Blitz.
    Besides amalgamated have dropped to 70 s lately.

    Except not really. You can say they require more coordination, and it may have seemed like it when they were new and the HoT metas were old, but they are all the same now. You just need a miracle to get people to actually do the events, instead of just standing there, waiting for someone else to do it for you as you watch netflix and wait to get rewarded.

    Effort is the bane of MMO players. They aren't faster, they are the same, but since the players can't stand in one place spamming auto-attack throughout most of the meta, they just continue to do the same old ones instead. Simple as that.

    Junundu, Maw, Augury you can do with ~ 5 people. Maybe I'm exaggerating with Maw but the other 2 I have done with 5 maybe even less. The events are basically just straight lines. Maw and Junundu give an impression of more than one lane but in reality, you can just do them one after another.
    Casino blitz and Treasure hunt don't even require any cooperation at all. You are basically solo. You need like 8 people to get enough coins in blitz.
    The only real meta is Vabbi.

    Dragon Stand you need around 45 people for the merry go around phase. You need 3 groups (commanders are really welcome, won't say necessary) that later split into 6 groups for the merry go around and boss on all 3 lanes. Now to be sure of success I would say 60 people is much better than 45.

    Gerrent I would say you need 40 people. A few less would maybe do but more won't hurt also to be sure of success. There is not much cooperation beyond splitting into lanes and not letting chak getting to cannon but it is not even comparable to Pof simplicity.
    Could go on but the point is no, they are not even closely the same. Only Verdant Brink is easy comparable if you only come for the Matriarch kill.

    You can probably do most of the Pof metas in the time you do DS. And still Hot metas are full all the time. Also there certainly is effort required. Yes you can be part of the cannon fodder and just 1111 through DS or Gerrent. But for you to do it you need at least a few people that put in the effort of putting up tags and communicating the lanes in order.

    You can do jundun with 2 people, I did 2 days ago, we only got 1 wurm tho but it was enough to get the forts

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 19, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

    Nope i'm the same didn't know those existed and don't really care that they do..

    Toxic Alliance events spawn in starter-adjacent zones like Kessex Hills and Gendarran Fields. It's the big scary flower that gives you hallucinations, defended by Krait, Hulks, and Nightmare Court Knights that you have to stomp to death. These are actually baddies from Season 1 story but they're just part of the normal maps now.

    If you play the Season 2 story or even just the maps (Dry Top and Silverwastes), you will run into Mordrem like Terragriffs (the griffon-looking things that hit really hard) and Trashers (the spinny boys). The new enemies for HoT are the Mordrem Guard, the Chakk, and the various dinos. Other types of Mordrem are introduced slowly before you get there.

    Oh those yeah i tried those and got wiped never went back i thought they were some team event gone wrong.

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Healix.5819 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    I just checked my account is not even on those leaderboards even after logging in..

    You're looking at the wrong section. Everyone is on the achievement leaderboards, which is how I can tell you're on Sea or Sorrows.

    I wasn't i checked my sever the achievement points don't go as low as mine..

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

    Nope i'm the same didn't know those existed and don't really care that they do..

    You are definitely there. I added you as a friend and had a look. Your own name shows at the top regardless of filter to show your percentile. This is what I see at the top: https://imgur.com/a/FtRusqa

    If I've set the filter to friends and I scroll down, I can see you on there, as shown here:
    https://imgur.com/a/GxqqeTP

    I'm not sure what you're looking at, but you are definitely included in these leaderboards, just not high enough to get a rank that isn't given as a percentile.

    Weird i wonder how i missed the top part, maybe they need to highlight it a different color or something.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What I find so confusing about this "HoT dropped difficulty out of nowhere" narrative is that stuff like Toxic Alliance or Season 2 Mordrem did kinda prepare you for HoT monsters pretty well, imo.

    never touched those, and i doubt the average player even know of their existance. neither did i BTW
    the names alone are enough to put them at the bottom of my to do list, sound like hardcore stuff IMO

    You're joking, right? This is a bit?

    Nope i'm the same didn't know those existed and don't really care that they do..

    Toxic Alliance events spawn in starter-adjacent zones like Kessex Hills and Gendarran Fields. It's the big scary flower that gives you hallucinations, defended by Krait, Hulks, and Nightmare Court Knights that you have to stomp to death. These are actually baddies from Season 1 story but they're just part of the normal maps now.

    If you play the Season 2 story or even just the maps (Dry Top and Silverwastes), you will run into Mordrem like Terragriffs (the griffon-looking things that hit really hard) and Trashers (the spinny boys). The new enemies for HoT are the Mordrem Guard, the Chakk, and the various dinos. Other types of Mordrem are introduced slowly before you get there.

    Oh those yeah i tried those and got wiped never went back i thought they were some team event gone wrong.

    so, they are nerfing content with one hand, but they are using the other to do THIS?
    thats like revving the engine to full power and still having the BREAKS ON
    killing players in core with this kitten doesnt make them "better", it just makes them want to quit the game
    i cant believe the bad leadership in this company

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    so, they are nerfing content with one hand, but they are using the other to do THIS?
    thats like revving the engine to full power and still having the BREAKS ON
    killing players in core with this kitten doesnt make them "better", it just makes them want to quit the game
    i cant believe the bad leadership in this company

    We're talking about stuff added in 2013, before HoT was even released. If you haven't been playing since release, you probably don't even remember that Kessex Hills got a big change for the "Tower of Nightmares" story.

    Next y'all will be saying the Dredge are too hard so Anet needs to delete the Dredge.

  • @ASP.8093 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    so, they are nerfing content with one hand, but they are using the other to do THIS?
    thats like revving the engine to full power and still having the BREAKS ON
    killing players in core with this kitten doesnt make them "better", it just makes them want to quit the game
    i cant believe the bad leadership in this company

    We're talking about stuff added in 2013, before HoT was even released. If you haven't been playing since release, you probably don't even remember that Kessex Hills got a big change for the "Tower of Nightmares" story.

    Next y'all will be saying the Dredge are too hard so Anet needs to delete the Dredge.

    All my defensive skills are blinds and I should not be required to use a different build to kill dredge.