Will Black Lion Chests be forbidden in the USA?

[ShadowGryphon.6257]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:Really hope this bill doesnt pass. I dont agree with it at all, parents need to watch their kids.

I got into an argument over at PC gamer for expressing this very sentiment.As a grown adult I decide what I want to spend my money on and if I choose to buy 1000 BLC and the accompanying keys, the government has no say over this, And parents should be monitoring what their kids do when it comes to these games not the government.And to be brutally honest, if loot boxes become verboten then lotteries need to be eliminated as well, after all at least with the chests you're getting something.

All that said, I do have a problem with games that drop loot chests/capsules that are required to be opened if you want to get better items and are expensive to open to boot COUGHdcuoCOUGH.

I do find it amusing that it's the left that are getting bent over this. Another indicator of where we stand with the government.

[Astralporing.1957]

@ShadowGryphon.6257 said:As a grown adult I decide what I want to spend my money on and if I choose to buy 1000 BLC and the accompanying keys, the government has no say over thisAnd the government would have no say over this. If, that is, you were a grown adult making a fully informed choice.That's the goal of the regulations - to make sure that you are a grown adult, and that you're making an informed choice. Do you have any problem with this?

And to be brutally honest, if loot boxes become verboten then lotteries need to be eliminated as well, after all at least with the chests you're getting something.But you have no problem with lotteries being regulated, the way they are now, am i wrong?

I do find it amusing that it's the left that are getting bent over this.Well, if the split line on this would be really along left/right divide, it would be amusing. I mean, it's the right that is supposed to stand on side of traditional moral values instead of fighting to the death to ignore them.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

@Trise.2865 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:Then why do you play an rpg? Why do you farm for chances at items good items? Are you saying you dont like gambling lol? If that's the case this game might not be for you.

Tactical and engaging combat, challenging game play, strong stories and experiences, creative self-expression, literally playing a role... the list goes on.Because, by design, that's how you get the "good" items. If I could just find them, taking Legend of Zelda as an example, I would never farm for them. That, by the way, is why SAB is so much fun.Yes. I despise gambling as a mechanic, no matter how

compelling

compulsive it is. I hate having my time wasted on padding.Correct. A game focused solely on tricking me into thinking I'm having fun by telling me that I can't is not a game for me. Thankfully, that's not Guild Wars.

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:Let me introduce to you the concept of the "critical hit" or damage range.

Which would be relevant if landing a critical hit was the

only way to win

. It absolutely is not in any well-designed game. Even games that have builds set up to rely on critical hits introduce mitigation mechanics: higher crit chance, conditional guaranteed crits, etc., etc. Even so, the procs and extra damage are bonuses at best; helping the player who should already be winning win

faster

. If your strategy is poor, landing a crit won't fix it. If your tactics are bad, landing a crit won't save you. At least... not in a well-designed game.

Yah and just like with crits you dont need to hit the jackpot or even roll on a black lion chest so thats nice that you despise gambling, I love it. No risk no reward. Same is true with all of life.

[Erasculio.2914]

@ShadowGryphon.6257 said:I do find it amusing that it's the left that are getting bent over this. Another indicator of where we stand with the government.

The senator proposing the bill on the first post of this topic is Republican, not Democrat...

[anninke.7469]

@melandru.3876 said:

@"anninke.7469" said:Uhm... and what about Dye Kits? Those are (many of them) cash shop RNG stuff either, would they be affected? And should they?

dye kits, black lion keys and mount skins (minus mount selection license, and the 2k mount skin gems) are allready banned in belgium

https://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-2-players-in-belgium-can-no-longer-buy-gems-from-the-gem-store/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9jfw5j/belgium_gem_store_now_has_everything_rng/

so yes, anet does have to tailor in to the laws of the countries they allow their game to be played in

better cutt off profit (rng gambling) then no profit at all (unable to sell expansions/game/whatever)

Thanks for info.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Zaraki.5784 said:Hopefully yes.And hopefully it'll shake other countries as well, these money-milking RNG-kitten have to end, I want to be able to buy stuff, not buy a chance to get stuff!

Then buy it from TP

[Helen.3746]

Anet works with other companies on promotions that people outside the NA are excluded from and we all have to suck it in and move on.NA might be excluded from BLCs and it's the end of the freakin' world.

[ShadowGryphon.6257]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

And the government would have no say over this. If, that is, you were a grown adult making a fully informed choice.That's the goal of the regulations - to make sure that you are a grown adult, and that you're making an informed choice. Do you have any problem with this?

Are you sure of this? You see, I have the right to do this no matter what and it's not the federal governments job to act as nanny.

But you have no problem with lotteries being regulated, the way they are now, am i wrong?

Did I say that? loot boxes and lotteries are both about attempting to "win" something. Yet no one makes too much noise about lotteries or the fact that they are a bigger money pit than loot boxes will ever be. Factor in that with a loot box one stands to get something, unlike a lottery. And if they don't like gambling then why are lotteries even legal?

Well, if the split line on this would be really along left/right divide, it would be amusing. I mean, it's the right that is supposed to stand on side of traditional moral values instead of fighting to the death to ignore them.Are they? Seems to me that the left, historically, does more to try to control/regulate peoples lives than the right ever has.

And you haven't address the main crux of the matter: parents keeping an eye on their kids and not abdicating that responsibility to the state or federal government.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@"ShadowGryphon.6257" said:Are you sure of this? You see, I have the right to do this no matter what and it's not the federal governments job to act as nanny.

What part of informed adult did you miss? Assuming a regulation like that ever passed, you, as an adult, would see literally no difference to what you currently have . There is no practical reason for an adult to object to something like that, unless you are an underage addict or someone profiteering from them. Or allergic to small text disclaimers and ESRB ratings.

Are they? Seems to me that the left, historically, does more to try to control/regulate peoples lives than the right ever has.

This thread is not about the historical differences of the political spectrum. It's about a bill proposal by a U.S senator. One who happens to be a republican (do we consider them "left" these days?).

[Palador.2170]

So, I've been thinking about what they could do to make things like the Black Lion Chests be clearly NOT gambling, but keep them around. I've got an idea, but I would like other's opinions on it.

Two changes: First, show the odds. This REALLY needs to happen. If the odds are so horrible that nobody would buy the keys if they knew, then the odds or rewards need improvement.

Second (and this is the big one), is the addition of a chance to reject the result, at a time cost. I'll explain what I mean using the BLC as an example. Let's say you get five keys from the gemstore. You use the first one, and aside from the standard statue and current bonus item, you get a good weapon skin and 5 extra statues. Under the results is an Accept and a Decline button. You want this, so you hit Accept. The items go into your inventory, key is gone. Second key, you get a currency voucher, something you currently need, so you hit Accept on that one too. Two keys down, three to go.

Third key, you get junk. You don't want this, so you hit Decline. A warning pops up, telling you that if you decline, you'll be locked out of certain items like the BLTC keys for one week. Do you still wish to decline? Yes/No. You hit Yes. The chest and key are returned to your inventory, nothing lost there. However, you now can not use the keys, randomized dye kits, adoption licenses or anything else like that for the one week. Nor can you buy them in the gemstore, they're just not displayed for you any more. When the week is over things go back to normal, and you can try to use that third key again. (Of course, the contents of the BLTC may not be the same by then. That's a risk you'll have to take, unlike with the mount adopts and dyes.)

Yes, this would slow down the purchasing of the keys somewhat, but it would also allow people the chance to "roll again" as often as they want over time. And accepting the results means that ... well, they've accepted the results, be they good or bad. I think this would safely put it outside of the areas of gambling. Right?

[Offair.2563]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_gambling#United_States

[Astralporing.1957]

@ShadowGryphon.6257 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

And the government would have no say over this. If, that is, you were a

grown adult making a fully informed choice

.That's the goal of the regulations - to make sure that you are a grown adult, and that you're making an informed choice. Do you have any problem with this?

Are you sure of this?Yes.

You see, I have the right to do this no matter what and it's not the federal governments job to act as nanny.And? It doesn't conflict in any way with what i said. If you are a fully informed adult, government would not nanny you.

But you have no problem with lotteries being regulated, the way they are now, am i wrong?

Did I say that? loot boxes and lotteries are both about attempting to "win" something. Yet no one makes too much noise about lotteries or the fact that they are a bigger money pit than loot boxes will ever be. Factor in that with a loot box one stands to get

something

, unlike a lottery. And if they don't like gambling then why are lotteries even legal?Because they

are

regulated. Unlike lootboxes.

Well, if the split line on this would be really along left/right divide, it

would

be amusing. I mean, it's the right that is supposed to stand on side of traditional moral values instead of fighting to the death to ignore them.Are they? Seems to me that the left, historically, does more to try to control/regulate peoples lives than the right ever has.Untrue. Both sides try to control and regulate, jsut for different reasons. But let's not have this kind of discussion on a game forum.

And you haven't address the main crux of the matter: parents keeping an eye on their kids and not abdicating that responsibility to the state or federal government.It's not like government is preventing them from keeping their eye on kids, right? It's only when they

do not

fulfill their responsibility that government gets involved.

[Latinkuro.9420]

I sincerely hope so, regardless of what a handful of gambling addicts might believe.loot boxes have been a scurge on the entire gaming industry, it is time something was done about them for good.

I've been a gamer for 30 years, I still remember when playing the game and beating hard content was what gated truly awesome rewards.slowly over the years it has all gone down hill little by little, I call this move the sly of hands magicians use.

Keep the notion of "you can still earn it in-game", but put it behind a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% drop chance.forcing almost any rational person that is NOT an addict gambler to grab their credit card just to avoid that cesspool.

We've only gone down hill from there.Worse is, this generation accepts and sometimes wants that kind of cesspool in their games, gambling addicts in the making, chasing that adrenaline rush of getting that lucky drop !!!

[Hesione.9412]

@trixantea.1230 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@trixantea.1230 said:

@"Zaklex.6308" said:

What is worthless that comes out of the BLTC? Nothing, everything that the chest drops can also be bought separately, so everything in that chest has a value...maybe it has no value to YOU, but it does have a value to someone...so your argument there is false. Whether or not you receive something you wanted or didn't want is besides the point, it all still has a value to it, and that item doesn't have to be equal to the value of a key either, it only needs a value, even if that value is $.10, it's a value.

Also, since you're personally already against gambling for other reasons, that makes your opinion biased(which hopefully people picked up on when you stated that), that doesn't mean it's not valid, it just means it comes with a bias against loot boxes already and no matter what anyone says about them you will have a negative opinion. You would probably still have that opinion even if I told you they don't mean the U.S. legal definition of gambling either.

"Many items within are also available in the Gem Store, though some rare items are exclusive to the chest, and a good portion of the items are Account Bound."Source:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Chest

I can give you exemples about it but anyway.. my 2 early points still stand:

If a player doesn't need an item he got from the lootbox and can not trade, he will either delete it or let gather dust in one of his bank tabs. Either way, his money is wasted on an item he does not want/need with a tricky way from Anet to sell it. This is why I'm saying that all BL Chest loot must be tradable.

Also, If anyone spend 1.56$ on a chest and was unlucky to get a value of 0.10$, there has to be a problem with the transaction: the customer did not get his money's worth and the company has taken money they don't deserve. To remove this kind of situation, the chest must contain in every random roll at the very least the equivalent item/gold/gems of 1.56$.

Hearthstone for example managed to reduce these issues by gaving players at least one garanteed rare item within each box and adding something called "pity timer" which increases your chances to get legendary items the more you open lootboxes. I am not saying that Hearthstone business model is perfect but it's still better that the Black Lion Chest system.

My opinion is not biased as you claim here. I'm just criticising these issues with the Black lion Chest and trying to suggest solutions. It'll only be biased if I say something like : "Remove lootboxes from the game altogethger".

Re the value of the chest contents. If every chest had to contain at least the gold value (at current TP/gemstore rates?) in a BLC, that would likely cause a negative (from Anet's perspective) hit on the gemstone. Why use gems to buy transmutation charges when it becomes highly likely you'll get them from a BLC? T5 and T6 mat TP prices would also take a hit, as those would also have an increased likelihood of being a BLC reward.

Changing the contents of the BLCs to any alternative scenario has effects on the ingame marketplace (gems, gold).

Reducing the gem cost or removing cheap items from BLC can solve the issue and make keys more appealing to buy. There is nothing wrong with the marketplace changing as long as it grants fair deals to everyone.

Which proves my point: Changing the contents of the BLCs to any alternative scenario has effects on the ingame marketplace (gems, gold).

[Zaklex.6308]

@"Latinkuro.9420" said:I sincerely hope so, regardless of what a handful of gambling addicts might believe.loot boxes have been a scourge on the entire gaming industry, it is time something was done about them for good.

I've been a gamer for 30 years, I still remember when playing the game and beating hard content was what gated truly awesome rewards.slowly over the years it has all gone down hill little by little, I call this move the sly of hands magicians use.

Keep the notion of "you can still earn it in-game", but put it behind a 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% drop chance.forcing almost any rational person that is NOT an addict gambler to grab their credit card just to avoid that cesspool.

We've only gone down hill from there.Worse is, this generation accepts and sometimes wants that kind of cesspool in their games, gambling addicts in the making, chasing that adrenaline rush of getting that lucky drop !!!

What about those that don't get the adrenaline rush but still want loot boxes in their games? What is your answer for those type of people...and reducing the drop percentage so that you have to keep trying does not FORCE anyone to their credit card who is not a gambler or addicted gambler, only the lazy or those that just want the items would reach for their credit card(and I'm lazy and I can spend my money on anything I want, I chose to buy gems).

Also, whomever said a BLTC key was worth $1.56 is completely wrong, you don't figure the cost based on the single key price...you have to figure the cost per key based on the bulk purchase price as that is the lowest cost per key possible(that is how marketing and sales works by the way). So actually a BLTC is equivalent to 85 gems, the price per gem for buying keys in groups of 25, and 84 gems does not cost $1.56, the cost currently is actually closer to $1.05 per key, $.51 less than stated earlier.

[Astralporing.1957]

A quick update. Seems like the legislation did get submitted after all. Also, Federal Trade Commision seems to be interested in the issue as well (although they are so far only investigating it, with no sign they intend to do anything about it, it's still the first time a government agency even noticed the issue).

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

GW2 shouldn't be that worse for wear if lootboxes were to be banned. I for one would like to see Black Lion skins sold as separate items (like 100 gems per a weapon skin) instead of RNG.

Though honestly i'd like it best if some of those (the more reasonable looking ones) were simply obtainable ingame via collections and achievements. I can't forget the glory of HoT and tons of cool stuff you unlocked via gameplay (auric weapons and backpack, tenebrous and shimmering weapons sets, guild armors, and so on..)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Over two weeks after promising to deliver a bill soon™, Senator Josh Hawley submitted SB 1629 for consideration. To track its status, visit:https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1629

• No summary is provided, probably because it was delivered right before the Memorial Day break (about a week for the Senate); this usually a sign of "to say I did legislation" (normally, you'd want to get momentum quickly), i.e. it lowers the chances of success.
• SB 1629 has two co-sponsors (usually a good sign). In this case, they are Sens Blumenthal (D) and Markey (D). Bipartisan support this early increases the odds of success.
• The bill has been read and "submitted to committee", a necessary first step. It tells us nothing about the bill's chances.
• The Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation committee membership includes Blumenthal, another 'neutral' item (it would be bad if neither co-sponsor were on the relevant committee).
• It will be some weeks before we see any official progress and anything can happen. (also neutral)

How Bills Become Laws in the US

• Lou Barlow & John Davis explaining the process in the 1990s

Original Text & FAQ

• SB 1629 Original Text (from Hawley's website)
• SB 1629 FAQ (also from the senator's website); this interpretation is necessarily biased, as (a) it's from the proposing party, (b) the bill will be modified as it moves forward, and © the details are ultimately up to the regulating body, who hasn't provided their understanding

[Erasculio.2914]

The Senator was also interviewed at Kotaku.

[DarkForcE.9210]

Japan game industry will definitely die if they have this law lol...Fate Grand Order is top spent mobile game in the world (of course... very heavy loot boxes spam)

[Samnang.1879]

re: https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/05/us-senator-introduces-bill-to-ban-loot-boxes-and-pay-to-win-microtransactions/

thats so not true. ppl who are proned to addiction will become addicted no matter how much you try to protect them from it...otherwise there'll be no jobs for shrinks

[MMAI.5892]

Per the initial question: What do I think will happen (in the U.S.) ?

Short version - Not much at this point. Might see some traction in 1-2 years, but I doubt it will go far.

Slightly longer version - There will be token bills put forth at the federal level. One of such bills might eventually pass but the real test will be in the final regulations determined by the body(s) given that authority. States probably have a better chance at passing these laws. The main driver for both will be money and whether or not any of them think their voters care enough about this issue to get a boost in the polls. On the state side, the regulations stand a good chance of being largely ignorable due to either a lack of teeth in the law itself or a lack of enforcement. (Same could happen at the federal level, but at a slightly lower chance.) Even if they do pass, it won't take long for the industry to find loopholes to skirt around. All the while kids will still lie about their age and check the "Are you 18 years of age?" in games meant for 'adults'.

[Fengzhou.9853]

People see this as an assault on pc games and stuff that use this.. but in reality? It's aimed primarily at all these mobile and facebook style games that machine gun lootbox/their pay to win currency in the face or you get hardcore blocked from progression.

This affects these games we play to some degree but I don't know if the black lion chests count as the same because you can SEE everything that is in it and you are guaranteed SOMETHING from the visible list.

Who knows :/ In a way? I like to see the bill pass because it IS very very predatory. The industry KNOWS it's predatory because they KNOW games appeal to people who just love them and become addicted to them for any range of reasons. If people who gamble lose their homes, people will have similar happen if they haven't already from playing games the same way.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@DarkForcE.9210 said:Japan game industry will definitely die if they have this law lol...Fate Grand Order is top spent mobile game in the world (of course... very heavy loot boxes spam)

Despite intentional fear-mongering in the west, Japan has introduced gacha regulations since 2012. Obviously the sky didn't fall and they are still fine. The regulations were relatively light but still more than the west's inaction (except a couple euro countries).

[SkyShroud.2865]

Many f2p games have this gambling like upgrade chance for gears. It is huge money.I agree that this gambling like mechanism should be restricted though not outright banned. For example, at least make it 100% after certain amount of attempts.