The reasons Berserker fails - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The reasons Berserker fails

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  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Why not make Berserk Mode a 5s cooldown like all the Primal Bursts? Why not allow entry at each bar of adrenaline with a 5s, 10s, 15s duration depending and bar of adrenaline spent? Would that make things better? It would certainly remove the angst over the traits offering nothing out of berserk mode.

    EDIT: There would have to a be a 5s ICD on things like Savage Instinct so that if someone slots Burst Mastery they can't have super high uptime of invulnerability.

    I was in love with making berserker duration linked to adrenaline spent in Berserker V1 ... it seemed like the obvious thing and it made sense ... lots of adrenaline, lots of berserker rage, gives players options to control mode duration.

    I think the idea now would be a step back from how Anet wants us to manage berserker uptime with Rage skills. I still love the idea. I think if the concept of version 2 is to be maintained, the answer is to fill in some non-berserker mode love in the minors (I think you mentioned that before as well). It would be my personal preference that non-berserker mode received more support options (dealing with condi's/CC) because I think more DPS doesn't make sense and more damage mitigation could change the flavour of the berserker too much if it's done wrong.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Here are the problems I see with the current Berserker espec. It's concept is clear; a DPS heavy, long duration burst mode for warrior.

    1. You are losing traits in a practical sense when you are not in berserker mode. Every minor trait is only of benefit to berserker mode. In my opinion, this is an unacceptable situation because for the trait system to work properly (i.e., give players meaningful choices), all the lines need to have some equivalence. Berserker falls WAY short of that (to be clear, it always did, but it's worse now).
    2. The risk/reward profile of this espec is out to lunch. In core warrior and to some extent SB, I have 3 fully effective traitlines and a burst at 3 levels at my disposal while maximizing at 30 adrenaline. In berserker, I'm effectively missing all minor traits while non-berserker and can't burst until at maximum adrenaline FOR THE SAME maximum 30 adrenaline cost as non-berserker specs. Even worse, if you miss or are interrupted while bursting, you continue to miss out berserker mode, your minor traits and you lose your 30 adrenaline. I believe this leads to a severe inbalance in the berserker spec with respect to the other warrior specs
    3. The flavour of the mode is reduced to a single attack. Conceptually I can see why it makes more sense that an attack initiates berserker but in practice, if I'm going to spend 30 adrenaline on a high risk attack, there should always be some kind of meaningful result to the player. "SORRY, TRY AGAIN" is underwhelming. no value gameplay and considering the cost and inbalance in risk/reward for the espec, unacceptable.

    TLDR: Berserker traitline only partially effective, Berserker mechanics lack equivalence to warrior/SB, All-or-Nothing Berserker mode trigger.

    I definitely see your point as valid. With how the game is now, it kind of does fall behind a bit, even in its intended role of getting in, bursting, and getting out.
    However, I also see the other side of the coin; IF they actually nerf damage and sustain across the board, then I think the way it is now is actually perfect for an assassin style role. If you miss your burst opportunity, you're punished for it.

    But yes, with how often bursting is available on other professions currently, and how much consistently harder they hit, Berserker is currently a bit behind. For now, I would increase adrenaline gained per hit so they can reach their berserk mode faster, granting them quicker and more consistent opportunities to get into their berserk mode, until the nerfs to damage and sustain across the board actually happen. Because of this though, for now I would also further nerf things like Arc Divider, otherwise it's just pooping on players more often than it is now.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019

    ^^ Your post makes sense and points there I agree with, especially about Arc Divider ... It's disappointing to me that Anet went with the 'big DPS skill' route to fill in the spec with a broad stroke and make the spec 'sellable'. I know the game is targeted at casual players but we still have some brains in the audience ... hitting the big DPS button and seeing big numbers is not engaging in any way. That was fun when I was 12 years old.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Why not make Berserk Mode a 5s cooldown like all the Primal Bursts? Why not allow entry at each bar of adrenaline with a 5s, 10s, 15s duration depending and bar of adrenaline spent? Would that make things better? It would certainly remove the angst over the traits offering nothing out of berserk mode.

    EDIT: There would have to a be a 5s ICD on things like Savage Instinct so that if someone slots Burst Mastery they can't have super high uptime of invulnerability.

    I was in love with making berserker duration linked to adrenaline spent in Berserker V1 ... it seemed like the obvious thing and it made sense ... lots of adrenaline, lots of berserker rage, gives players options to control mode duration.

    I think the idea now would be a step back from how Anet wants us to manage berserker uptime with Rage skills. I still love the idea. I think if the concept of version 2 is to be maintained, the answer is to fill in some non-berserker mode love in the minors (I think you mentioned that before as well). It would be my personal preference that non-berserker mode received more support options (dealing with condi's/CC) because I think more DPS doesn't make sense and more damage mitigation could change the flavour of the berserker too much if it's done wrong.

    I have mentioned giving minor benefits while out of BMode, you are correct. This current proposal just struck me as probably the quickest and easiest fix that Anet could do that would appease people the most. I still think the minor benefits while out of BMode should be in there. You could still focus on extending BMode with rage skills, after all dropping out would still be a DPS loss. Vice Versa with things that proc upon entering BMode, like Savage Instinct, would benefit from doing short cycles, so you end up with two distinct ways of playing a Berserker (not unlike rage cycling vs sustained rage with D&D Barbarians).

    Berserkers still have access to "Shake it Off!" and Cleansing Ire. Heck if you run Axe and Cleansing Ire, then Condi should never stick to you. So the core warrior package still offers you a great deal of condi management. As for CC, Savage Instinct and Eternal Champion offer great utility there. Even more so if Anet makes Berserk Mode a 5s cd.

    This brings up another QOL thing that warriors have asked about for a long time. Make F1, F2, and F3 use up the corresponding amounts adrenaline bars while preserving the unspent adrenaline.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019

    Truly ... I use Shake it off in almost every Warrior build I have but Cleansing Ire is really limited with that single adrenaline bar.

    I don't want to derail the thread but I have a massive problem with how Savage Instinct has always and continues to work. No one in their right mind is going to sit on a full adrenaline bar, especially in V2, just to break a stun and no one in their right mind is going to give up 5 seconds of extra berserker mode to take a stun breaker ability. Am I missing something? Does the 1 second of damage immunity make up for that? I doubt it.

    I'm pretty sure that based on the history of how Anet changes the game, we will see another Berserker revisit; they tends to implement and make changes as they get game data. It's happened for almost every revisit they have done on the specs they changed in the last year. My hope is that I've touched on some relevant design paradigms that cause them to pause and have a second look.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019

    @Obtena.7952
    It boils down to PvE vs WvW vs PvP with Savage Instinct. Its 2s of immunity in PvE (if you did not know). In WvW I, rather successfully contrary to what Hitman claims, use Savage Instinct to break the self-stun of Headbutt. That 1s of immunity at least ensures I also get a hit or two in if I was being focus fired.

    Its a great combo, and yes I do hit with Headbutt. It is a great setup for any of the Primal Bursts. Honestly there is so much clutter from the Berserk Mode strike and Arc Divider on the screen that I don't think some people notice that are stunned. In WvW the base duration of Berserk Mode is usually enough to finish a fight, and you want it to go on cooldown sooner so that it is available for the next fight, at least while roaming. If you are zerging then Smash Brawler is better.

    In PvE, for a raid, yes Smash Brawler is what you want. For FotM or open world it is a tossup, though the immunity is a short breather. If BMode becomes a 5s CD and we can use one bar of adrenaline for entry for 5s that immunity gets a 20% uptime during fights, which is a fair amount frankly.

    EDIT for after thought: Even at the current state, with Rousing Resilience + Savage Instinct you can Headbutt->BMode and guarantee 8s (4s in PvP) of +1000 toughness plus at least one small heal on top of that, more if you bait a stun from the enemy and use Headbutt to break the stun.

    Food for thought on why onw would use SI over SB.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2019

    OH look at this balance patch ... Anet has heard the players and recognizes that 'trade off' between non-berserker and berserker sucks ... so they are extending berserker up time options. I guess everyone that was complaining wasn't so crazy after all.

    This is what you call 'giving good feedback'. Thanks to everyone who supported the cause.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    OH look, they still say that there's no problem with the design and just moved the numbers a bit, lets pretend you didn't disagree with me when I was saying that, while also claiming I'm talking about performance all the time. :lol: There's also still no perma-berk and no free going-out-of-it for cooldown refund. Traits also unchanged. I guess everyone that disagreed with you on these points wasn't so crazy after all either. :sleeping:
    The changes seem reasonable to me.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    Ah, that's just sour grapes. It was all worth it; the people present their cases with good feedback were heard and Anet has made changes inline with the direction they want the class to go. No one could hardly ask for a better solution than this.

    Tell you what though ... anytime we need changes again, come on by. I honestly believe you helped us out.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Ah, that's just sour grapes. It was all worth it; the people present their cases with good feedback were heard and Anet has made changes inline with the direction they want the class to go. No one could hardly ask for a better solution than this.

    Tell you what though ... anytime we need changes again, come on by. I honestly believe you helped us out.

    Yup, I said the design is fine and the numbers need some tuning and that's what happened. I'm not sure why you're trying to tell me I didn't help myself too (as in you think I don't play warrrior for some reason?) just because I disagreed with some of the broken ideas thrown in this subreddit (including yours), but ok. I'm glad you apparently somehow see this as "your win" -short memory, I guess :lol: :+1:
    As I said, these changes seem to be reasonable, literally in-line with what I said and not even close to what some of the people threw around here. Glad anet made good choices here.


    If you need a reminder of what I wrote on the previous page of this thread:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't really know how to through to you, so again, I will just stop. My complaint is about the design, not the performance. If you can't make that distinction, it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

    But the dedign is ok, it needs some numbers tweeked so the performance is fine. The design itself is fine, which is the point here, keep repeating people that disagree with you are talking about performance, good job. The thing here is that I can make that distinction and you are wrong.

    Somehow you'll still try to play it off like you were correct the whole time and I didn't get pretty much what I asked for? :D
    "This is what you call 'giving good feedback'."

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