Possibly the new Rev Silhouette

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

On that I agree with you, but to me the problem of lacking utilities is on the other support legend, Ventari, since Revenant is highly dependant of two legends but Ventari sucks (compared to other healer's jobs) outside HK and bubble job. I don't think Herald facets are bad despite not having any unique boon, again is most likely useless to have a class with permanent might uptime when you can have a healer that also puts 25 might on a full squad, but that isn't Herald's fault, is Druid being overpowered.

 

 

Yeah, Ventari has issues, but if you're thinking in terms of a healer role Herald is competing with Renegade which just does it better for most content, and brings alacrity to boot. I've heard of heal herald working in WvW but that's about all.

 

Outside of heal herald, you're looking at some sort of hybrid between damage and support. 30kish is generally what you see for hybrids that bring something really valuable like quickness or alacrity. Herald finds it difficult to compete in this range. Obviously, 40k is inappropriate since that's the range of builds that almost exclusively bring damage. But I think there is a middle point where herald support would be enough to make up for the DPS drop, especially if you account for the extra damage Shiro's Facet of Nature provides.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

A thought just occurred to me actually. Considering ANet has been saying they're breaking the usual rules with their E-Spec, there's a possibility this E-Spec doesn't have one but TWO Legends, however the catch is that they're the only Legends you can use and you can't equip others.

Legendary Luxon Archemorus
Legendary Kurzick Saint Viktor

Those are essentially your Legends but since you get two, the others get locked out in the process. Just a thought since I realised they use dark red and blue to potentially represent the Luxon and Kurzick alliances in the silhouette.

If this is the case, then each Legend could have a focus, one Power (Archemorus), the other Support (Viktor) and the elite skills for each legend corresponds with the effects of their relic item's effects from GW1 without the need for charging it.

Spear of Archemorus
Urn of Saint Viktor

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by ChronoPinoyX.7923

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

A thought just occurred to me actually. Considering ANet has been saying they're breaking the usual rules with their E-Spec, there's a possibility this E-Spec doesn't have one but TWO Legends, however the catch is that they're the only Legends you can use and you can't equip others.

Legendary Luxon Archemorus
Legendary Kurzick Saint Viktor

Those are essentially your Legends but since you get two, the others get locked out in the process. Just a thought since I realised they use dark red and blue to potentially represent the Luxon and Kurzick alliances in the silhouette.

If this is the case, then each Legend could have a focus, one Power (Archemorus), the other Support (Viktor) and the elite skills for each legend corresponds with the effects of their relic item's effects from GW1 without the need for charging it.

Spear of Archemorus
Urn of Saint Viktor

 

Both of their legends are deeply tied to Shiro. Since we already have Shiro, I doubt that'll happen.

But, if Arenanet was to give those two to one elite specialization, they would also have to include Vizu,

who was as essential to the killing of Shiro as the other two were.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Both of their legends are deeply tied to Shiro. Since we already have Shiro, I doubt that'll happen.

But, if Arenanet was to give those two to one elite specialization, they would also have to include Vizu,

who was as essential to the killing of Shiro as the other two were.

Shiro's presence with the Core Legends shouldn't be a detriment to it if we consider the conventional rules being broken. That said, if the Luxon and Kurzick characters aren't what ANet go for, they can swap them out for the Elite Mission bosses, in that case it would be Kanaxai and Urgoz.

If they do stick with the Luxon and Kurzick champions however, adding Vizu would actually make sense if we consider the three general playstyles in the game: Archemorus covers Power, Viktor covers Support and Vizu can be Condi. That would actually make sense to some extent although balancing that sounds a bit whack given what ANet does with balancing in general lel

[draxynnic.3719]

It's less of a mechanical problem and more of a fluff problem. The main reason we know about Archemorus and Viktor was because they were involved in Shiro's (first) death - unless they did something REALLY impressive themselves that we've somehow never heard about before, they're part of Shiro's legend rather than having their own.

[Thon.3780]

For E -Rev , if ANET want to change mechanics base on past activities 

1. use ammunition system 

2. shroud system or Druid System , F5 change all skill set, or only weapon set

3. break weapon rule , like hammer that become long range weapon 

4. Charge or adrenaline system as second bar , I think it not fit to rev.  I am not sure it will help or make rev attack combination stuck.

 

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's less of a mechanical problem and more of a fluff problem. The main reason we know about Archemorus and Viktor was because they were involved in Shiro's (first) death - unless they did something REALLY impressive themselves that we've somehow never heard about before, they're part of Shiro's legend rather than having their own.

That's an easy solution for ANet to solve by simply expanding their history from before Shiro's attack. I mean that's exactly how they did Kalla Sorchrazor. Her most defining feature before ANet decided to get inspired by the Amazonian theme was that she was Pyre Fierceshot's grandcub, that was it. They've obviously done more before Shiro, it's not their only defining feature otherwise they wouldn't be the champions of the Luxon and Kurzick before the Jade Wind. 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Tbh id like to lose wep/legend swap and have it replaced with some special mechanic. So far neither espec changed core mechanic of legend swap. News should roll soon anyway

Edited September 7, 2021 by Scoobaniec.9561

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

That's an easy solution for ANet to solve by simply expanding their history from before Shiro's attack. I mean that's exactly how they did Kalla Sorchrazor. Her most defining feature before ANet decided to get inspired by the Amazonian theme was that she was Pyre Fierceshot's grandcub, that was it. They've obviously done more before Shiro, it's not their only defining feature otherwise they wouldn't be the champions of the Luxon and Kurzick before the Jade Wind. 

Not really. We knew well before PoF that Kalla was the one who ultimately succeeded at overthrowing the Flame Legion hegemony and established the foundations for modern charr society. We had most of that story before GW2 even released, in fact.

 

And that seems to be the requirement - being at the level of having transformed the culture and history of at least one race. Kalla did so for the charr. Ventari did so for the sylvari. Jalis did so for the dwarfs. Mallyx we don't know the full history of, but given that he outranked Lord Jadoth, he probably had a big role in Margonite history. Turai Ossa did not - he temporarily defeated a villain, sought Ascension, and failed, his only legacy being to found a Kournan dynasty that Joko would later pretty much wipe out.

 

With Archemorus and Viktor - sure, they're heroes for their respective cultures, but there's no evidence that they've been transformative. Luxon and Kurzick cultures were well established before their time, and while they did undergo transformations after the Jade Wind, that was due to them having to adapt to what Shiro did - Archemorus and Viktor played no part in that apart from fighting Shiro.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

51 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Not really. We knew well before PoF that Kalla was the one who ultimately succeeded at overthrowing the Flame Legion hegemony and established the foundations for modern charr society. We had most of that story before GW2 even released, in fact.

 

And that seems to be the requirement - being at the level of having transformed the culture and history of at least one race. Kalla did so for the charr. Ventari did so for the sylvari. Jalis did so for the dwarfs. Mallyx we don't know the full history of, but given that he outranked Lord Jadoth, he probably had a big role in Margonite history. Turai Ossa did not - he temporarily defeated a villain, sought Ascension, and failed, his only legacy being to found a Kournan dynasty that Joko would later pretty much wipe out.

 

With Archemorus and Viktor - sure, they're heroes for their respective cultures, but there's no evidence that they've been transformative. Luxon and Kurzick cultures were well established before their time, and while they did undergo transformations after the Jade Wind, that was due to them having to adapt to what Shiro did - Archemorus and Viktor played no part in that apart from fighting Shiro.

Kalla's story was extremely obscure pre-POF that they had a continuity error when they released the E-Spec since Kalla was a known GS user yet the E-Spec weapon was a Shortbow and Kalla wasn't known to use a short bow until after the E-Spec was released. The fact that they went as far as to rectify that major error in Kalla's history (to the point that they even changed the statue in the Black Citadel) because the E-Spec didn't match the actual Legend it was channelling means the lore behind the characters can be subject to change, relative to what the E-Spec is meant to represent for the Revenant. If we stuck with Kalla's original story, then Revenant would've had a GS E-Spec a long time ago.

Archemorus and Viktor are easily considered as clean slates lore wise if we don't consider the fact that they were merely linked to Shiro's death. They've been a part of Canthan history long before Shiro would even consider betraying Angsiyan and kept the Luxon and Kurzick factions as vassal states under the Dragon Empire. Since they've held their positions as champions as well as representatives of the Luxon and Kurzick respectively before the Jade Wind, they've obviously done something just as major as slaying Shiro in order to have such a massive influence in the history of Cantha. This is something ANet can cover in EOD the same way they covered major pieces of lore in GW2 that they couldn't cover in GW1 (like the Charr Legions, Six Gods and Orr, the Norn Spirits, Asuran Architectures and so on). Them killing Shiro is about as major as Jalis Ironhammer fulfilling part of Glint's Flameseeker Prophecies, so I don't really see it as a detriment to the idea. 

[GrayHawk.7560]

Despite the two above views on Archemorus and Viktor being opposed I actually agree with both for different reasons and think both are compelling arguments.

 

I had also brought up either or both of them on the old leak thread that got deleted.

 

I think they have the potential to be retconned to a degree but I actually think the two biggest factors acting against them are-

 

1.  That including them without Vizu would be strange unless the focus is more on them as champions rather than the deed of killing Shiro

 

2. More importantly, they're humans.  This alone goes against the trend Anet seems to go with for legends.  Anet seem to try link each legend to a different race/creature.  As a result I doubt we will get any of the humans, Archemorus, Viktor, Vizu, Togo etc.  Its more likely we will get a Tengu, Oni, Norn, Asura, Forgotten etc. The closest we would get to a human IMO is a ghost like Adelburn but a) it's unlikely that Rytlock would ever channel Adelburn and b) the foefire had 0 to do with Cantha.  The most left field could be something like Razah since he's referenced in the Exordium lore and could add some interesting mechanics.  Still unlikely since it didn't really do much legendary and I doubt we will get a GW1 Hero as a legend.

Edited September 8, 2021 by GrayHawk.7560

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

5 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Kalla's story was extremely obscure pre-POF that they had a continuity error when they released the E-Spec since Kalla was a known GS user yet the E-Spec weapon was a Shortbow and Kalla wasn't known to use a short bow until after the E-Spec was released. The fact that they went as far as to rectify that major error in Kalla's history (to the point that they even changed the statue in the Black Citadel) because the E-Spec didn't match the actual Legend it was channelling means the lore behind the characters can be subject to change, relative to what the E-Spec is meant to represent for the Revenant. If we stuck with Kalla's original story, then Revenant would've had a GS E-Spec a long time ago.

Archemorus and Viktor are easily considered as clean slates lore wise if we don't consider the fact that they were merely linked to Shiro's death. They've been a part of Canthan history long before Shiro would even consider betraying Angsiyan and kept the Luxon and Kurzick factions as vassal states under the Dragon Empire. Since they've held their positions as champions as well as representatives of the Luxon and Kurzick respectively before the Jade Wind, they've obviously done something just as major as slaying Shiro in order to have such a massive influence in the history of Cantha. This is something ANet can cover in EOD the same way they covered major pieces of lore in GW2 that they couldn't cover in GW1 (like the Charr Legions, Six Gods and Orr, the Norn Spirits, Asuran Architectures and so on). Them killing Shiro is about as major as Jalis Ironhammer fulfilling part of Glint's Flameseeker Prophecies, so I don't really see it as a detriment to the idea. 

 

 

To be honest (and IMO), Renegades legend is not "Kalla", but the "Spirit of Revolution", which gets represented by Kalla AND other important members of the rise against the flame legion.

Which is why we got a whole warband.

 

Same for the weapon: You are not Kalla, hence you don't use a GS.

You are a guerillia fighter, which is why you use an ambush weapon (crafted from scraps) => short bow.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Brunnsteinangel.2568

[Ulysses.2058]

10 minutes ago, Brunnsteinangel.2568 said:

 

 

To be honest (and IMO), Renegades legend is not "Kalla", but the "Spirit of Revolution", which gets represented by Kalla AND other important members of the rise against the flame legion.

Which is why we got a whole warband.

 

Same for the weapon: You are not Kalla, hence you don't use a GS.

You are a guerillia fighter, which is why you use an ambush weapon (crafted from scraps) => short bow.

 

 

Not true. You literally channel Kalla, just as you channel Shiro, Mallyx, etc. The charr holding a bow that appears over your head when you channel the renegade legend, is her.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Kalla's story was extremely obscure pre-POF that they had a continuity error when they released the E-Spec since Kalla was a known GS user yet the E-Spec weapon was a Shortbow and Kalla wasn't known to use a short bow until after the E-Spec was released. The fact that they went as far as to rectify that major error in Kalla's history (to the point that they even changed the statue in the Black Citadel) because the E-Spec didn't match the actual Legend it was channelling means the lore behind the characters can be subject to change, relative to what the E-Spec is meant to represent for the Revenant. If we stuck with Kalla's original story, then Revenant would've had a GS E-Spec a long time ago.

Archemorus and Viktor are easily considered as clean slates lore wise if we don't consider the fact that they were merely linked to Shiro's death. They've been a part of Canthan history long before Shiro would even consider betraying Angsiyan and kept the Luxon and Kurzick factions as vassal states under the Dragon Empire. Since they've held their positions as champions as well as representatives of the Luxon and Kurzick respectively before the Jade Wind, they've obviously done something just as major as slaying Shiro in order to have such a massive influence in the history of Cantha. This is something ANet can cover in EOD the same way they covered major pieces of lore in GW2 that they couldn't cover in GW1 (like the Charr Legions, Six Gods and Orr, the Norn Spirits, Asuran Architectures and so on). Them killing Shiro is about as major as Jalis Ironhammer fulfilling part of Glint's Flameseeker Prophecies, so I don't really see it as a detriment to the idea. 

Kalla's story was told back in the Ecology of the Charr, and I think some more information came in Ghosts of Ascalon... both released a long time before GW2 released.

 

Furthermore, there's no retcon that I can see. The original version of her statue had a greatsword... so? This doesn't establish that greatsword was her only weapon or even her primary weapon. If she was a ranger (like Pyre), then greatsword and shortbow matches with that fairly well. We didn't get greatsword with the Kalla legend, but the legends have always been more about channeling the impact that the legend had on history rather than directly copying the skills and abilities they had in life. At the bottom line, we knew Kalla's story long before she was introduced as a legend, with the additional renegade lore just fleshing it out a bit more.

 

In Jalis's case... Jalis isn't a legend because of the minor role he played in the Flameseeker Prophecies. He's a legend because of the Rite of the Great Dwarf. Similar to how Kalla is essentially a medium to her warband and the spirit of the charr revolution as a whole, too, Jalis is essentially a medium to the Great Dwarf. Both left a lasting transformation of their respective races.

 

In the case of Archemorus and Viktor... the only thing we know them for is fighting Shiro, and there's no evidence that they instituted any lasting changes. Instead, they were the last champions of their respective cultures before their ways of life were overturned by the Jade Wind... but it's Shiro that caused that transformation. If Turai doesn't make the cut, I don't think Archemorus and Viktor do.

[RabbitUp.8294]

1 hour ago, Ulysses.2058 said:

Not true. You literally channel Kalla, just as you channel Shiro, Mallyx, etc. The charr holding a bow that appears over your head when you channel the renegade legend, is her.

Kalla couldn't summon ghosts, so the spirits are rev's own doing. So, while you do indeed channel Kalla, you also summon the ghosts of her warband, whereas all other legends were solo deals.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Another thing to consider 

On 9/7/2021 at 12:51 PM, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

Shiro's presence with the Core Legends shouldn't be a detriment to it if we consider the conventional rules being broken. That said, if the Luxon and Kurzick characters aren't what ANet go for, they can swap them out for the Elite Mission bosses, in that case it would be Kanaxai and Urgoz.

If they do stick with the Luxon and Kurzick champions however, adding Vizu would actually make sense if we consider the three general playstyles in the game: Archemorus covers Power, Viktor covers Support and Vizu can be Condi. That would actually make sense to some extent although balancing that sounds a bit whack given what ANet does with balancing in general lel

Doesn't the fact that you need to channel 3 people at once for it to make sense tell you enough about whether they can be a viable legend or not? As draxynnic said, they are part of Shiro's legend. It took three great heroes to take him down, they died in the process and Shiro still came back. 

 

Then, you have to look it from another perspective. The devs already covered Shiro's arc and picked the best possible choice. What's the point of going back to the same story and scrapping the bottom of the barrel? Yes, they can retcon them, but there's still so much other lore they can use instead.

[Ulysses.2058]

13 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Kalla couldn't summon ghosts, so the spirits are rev's own doing. So, while you do indeed channel Kalla, you also summon the ghosts of her warband, whereas all other legends were solo deals.

You literally said in your previous comment that Renegade's legend is not Kalla, while she is indeed. You channel Kalla, and through her (using Revenant's power) you summon members of her warband.

So yes, the legend Renegade's channel is Kalla.

[Gazrul.3086]

Yes please! Give us Greatsword! 😄

 

[RabbitUp.8294]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses.2058 said:

You literally said in your previous comment that Renegade's legend is not Kalla, while she is indeed. You channel Kalla, and through her (using Revenant's power) you summon members of her warband.

So yes, the legend Renegade's channel is Kalla.

It wasn't me, I just joined the discussion. 

 

Yes, the legend is Kalla, but she doesn't share her powers with you. It's not like her warband were her pets, you shouldn't need Kalla to access her warband. So, in practice, you summon her warband, and channel their leader Kalla to coordinate them.

[Ulysses.2058]

14 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

It wasn't me, I just joined the discussion. 

 

Yes, the legend is Kalla, but she doesn't share her powers with you. It's not like her warband were her pets, you shouldn't need Kalla to access her warband. So, in practice, you summon her warband, and channel their leader Kalla to coordinate them.

True, that wasn't you. My bad. 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Another human legend wont happen bc theres Shiro (thats why im kitten about Kalla being a legend about summoning dancing charrs). It will be either a norn, asura or something else

Edited September 8, 2021 by Scoobaniec.9561

[RabbitUp.8294]

I don't think the devs are that worried about racial diversity.

 

Gw1 was a human-centric story, it is unavoidable that there's more human lore. Then there's the issue of gameplay. It's hard to make an asura legend that's not a golemancer engineer because all prominent asura are inventors first and foremost. Really the only choice I can think of is Dessa and have the kit revolve around fractals weirdness. Plus, asura as a race are more likely to treat rev channelling as a means to an end and pick the strongest options rather than practice hero worship.

 

As for Norn, unless they go the villainous route with Svanir, all legendary norn were warriors of some kind. They could draw inspiration from the spirits of the wild, but there's no good legend options to go that.

 

[GrayHawk.7560]

8 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

I don't think the devs are that worried about racial diversity.

 

Gw1 was a human-centric story, it is unavoidable that there's more human lore. Then there's the issue of gameplay. It's hard to make an asura legend that's not a golemancer engineer because all prominent asura are inventors first and foremost. Really the only choice I can think of is Dessa and have the kit revolve around fractals weirdness. Plus, asura as a race are more likely to treat rev channelling as a means to an end and pick the strongest options rather than practice hero worship.

 

As for Norn, unless they go the villainous route with Svanir, all legendary norn were warriors of some kind. They could draw inspiration from the spirits of the wild, but there's no good legend options to go that.

 

Norn have a couple of non villain options one of which is Jora though that's doubtable.

 

A contender however could be Asgeir Dragonrender (retconned to use a GS instead of sword and shield).  

Edited September 8, 2021 by GrayHawk.7560

[Scoobaniec.9561]

11 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

p.

 

As for Norn, unless they go the villainous route with Svanir, all legendary norn were warriors of some kind. They could draw inspiration from the spirits of the wild, but there's no good legend options to go that.

 

Kalla was a warrior and.. i see nothing warrior about her kit. Legend is just a face at this point and does not have to mimic the skills in any form or shape. And like GrayHawk posted above they can retcon Asgeir and put a greatsword same way they retconned Kalla to use shortbow instead of greatsword

[RabbitUp.8294]

1 hour ago, GrayHawk.7560 said:

Norn have a couple of non villain options one of which is Jora though that's doubtable.

 

A contender however could be Asgeir Dragonrender (retconned to use a GS instead of sword and shield).  

And that what I meant when I said they were warriors of some kind. What would the gameplay of Jora/Asgeir look like?

 

1 hour ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Kalla was a warrior and.. i see nothing warrior about her kit. Legend is just a face at this point and does not have to mimic the skills in any form or shape. 

Because with Kalla they gave us the whole warband. The point is there needs to be some gameplay hook. Ventari never fought, but his tablet and his pacifist nature dictated his kit.