Do you believe the devs are so disconnected with ele community to make ANOTHER melee spec?

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

ArenaNet never conceptualised elementalist as a traditional caster?

Based on how the game works, I would say if they did, it's not the case any longer ... even on release. I mean, what separates the use of weapons on Ele apart from any other class to say that Eles are 'casting' when they use weapon skills and other classes are just 'attacking'? I don't see any differentiation in mechanics there. Yes, in terms of the words ... it IS just marketing but in terms of how the game plays, whether it's 'casting spells' or 'using a weapon' ... it's all the same. 

So people are trying to imply Anet is 'breaking' the concept of the spellcaster ... the reality is that this notion is really just a label. In the end, everyone's mechanics to 'use' weapons or skillbar actions is the same.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Xanhawk.3806]

 Here is the Scholar profession which Elementalist, Necromancer, and Mesmer belong to:

Quote

Scholar is a categorization for the three spell-casting professions. Being the most lightly armored, these professions are considered to fill traditional backline roles, but can also use martial weapons and can be built to be extremely efficient in close range combat.

 

"can also use martial weapons and can be built to be extremely efficient in close range combat"

 All three Scholar based professions since inception were designed to also be built to be able to fight in melee. 

Can y'all stop bickering like toddlers now?

[Puck.3697]

12 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

ArenaNet never conceptualised elementalist as a traditional caster?

 

What about the original prerelease skill showcases, which mostly focused on traditional lightning-from-fingertips-and-fireballs-from-the-sky skills like Meteor Shower, Static Field, and Phoenix. Or, heck, what about the entirety of GW1? You don't think people can't have an expectation that the profession will at least resemble the predecessor.

 

Now, options to break out of that mould are good. People aren't complaining about the existence of melee specs - people are complaining about apparently* having three in a row while the classic archetype falls further and further behind (helped along by a few stiff nerfs). Options are good, but it's getting to the point where if you don't want to play melee, you're almost better off playing Warrior than Elementalist. There's a point at which putting so much focus into different melee incarnations while the archetypical form only receives scraps is just putting the cart before the horse. There's already tempest and weaver to cater for meleementalists. Throw a bone to the other side already.

 

*There are indications that the hammer might not be as melee focused as the teaser implies, but if so that's just bad marketing.

making this argument is fine..

however, Guild wars 2 + Ranged weapons = Benched in 90% of of circumstances... ur clinging to ranged hammer.. yet we all know it'd be rendered Useless shortly after launch Just like every other ranged weapon i nthe game almost. its very seeable to why someone would argue against a ranged weapon introduction.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Zeph.5927 said:

Wow. You’re REALLY stretching here. Acting like the fireball an ele casts with their staff is the same thing as a warrior hitting something with their Greatsword

There isn't a stretch ... Anet is defining the class how they see fit. I don't have to act like they are the same because the mechanics of a ele 'casting' from a staff is EXACTLY the same thing as a warrior using a greatsword ... or an ele 'casting' from a hammer for that matter.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

I think Elementalist and Ranger are getting Hammer because Hammer is generally unpopular, and this is an artificial attempt to make it popular.  Both Elementalist and Ranger players seemed to want themed elites using guns or rifles.  Nothing to do now but see how these elites play out when we can actually test them.  I certainly want more lore connections with all the elites than what we seem to be getting.

[fuzzyp.6295]

2 minutes ago, Zeph.5927 said:

Exactly this. People need to realize that this profession has had far too much melee focus for far too long. And that’s not good when the profession itself was originally showcased as your stereotypical mage style caster class (and how it’s origins in GW1 also heavily relied upon this).

There are just some individuals in here that are getting their panties in a wad because other people are asking for something besides melee for a change.

There is nothing wrong with wanting variety and I think you and others who are upset that its not a ranged weapon are completely within your right.

What I think people are taking issue with (at least I am) is that you are trying to define Elemenetalist as only a ranged class that is expected to stand back and shoot fireballs at enemies. That is a part of its identity, but to argue its the only part that matters and should be the primary focus of the class is down right wrong. Who are we to tell Arena-Net how to determine what a 'spell caster' is? 

Again, DAGGER, a melee focused weapon, was released for Elementalist AT LAUNCH. Clearly, Melee-oriented game play was, is and will continue to be a focus of the Elementalists kit. 
 

[Sigmoid.7082]

Just now, Zeph.5927 said:

There are just some individuals in here that are getting their panties in a wad because other people are asking for something besides melee for a change.

Asking for something and being disappointed when you don't get it is fine to do.

 

But the issue is that's not what is happening. You have some people claiming that the class is being designed wrong, by the very people who dictate how the game is designed based on how they want their game to be, because they didn't get a range weapon / weapon they wanted.

 

Personally the two range weapons that people wanted, longbow or rifle, scream mage about as much as hammer does...

 

[SunTzu.4513]

Imo another thing to ask if we are looking at the video is: What do ele need? Where it is lacking? What aspect need to be redifined? And will hammer be able to fill/support this need? In the vid they speak about wells which can be enhanced/augmented. So we have an AoE field on the ground. If they are not range casts and in the ''worst'' case more like guard symbols we need to have access to some defensive tools. Stability/blinds/blocks/evades or we will constantly kicked out of our own well thingys. It will be an interresting reveal stream how they will implement all of this.

[Vissarion.6509]

10 minutes ago, Zeph.5927 said:

Based on this and your other comments, I’d say we can start safely ignoring you now.

We are talking about someone that refuses Catalyst and Hammer is a Melee spec even though there's a video with tons of skills in melee only range 😂😂

[Puck.3697]

11 minutes ago, Zeph.5927 said:

Exactly this. People need to realize that this profession has had far too much melee focus for far too long. And that’s not good when the profession itself was originally showcased as your stereotypical mage style caster class (and how it’s origins in GW1 also heavily relied upon this).

There are just some individuals in here that are getting their panties in a wad because other people are asking for something besides melee for a change.

 

No ones getting panties in a "Wad"

lets strictly throw this down. the issue isnt the fact the Proffession has had too much "melee focus for too long". its the fact that ranged weapons in most circumstances Suck in the game entirely lol. they just do they inferior to melee options..

Staff, Sceptar, Warhorn, Focus are all ranged Weapons.

Sword, Dagger, OH Dagger, Hammer are all melee weapons.

see how we has 4 on each Side of the coin my friend? Thats called Balance. the Reasons the proffessions been continously using Melee Weapons is because The game mechanics themselves go directly against the advantage being a Ranged player is Susposed to give.

Ranged players are susposed to Do less DPS, but with a higher uptime at less Risk, its fundamentally ment to be mechanically easier to play at the sake of a DPS Loss effectively in a sense.

GW2 Raids, Have very few moments where uptime becomes hard.. mechanics arent scarey enough to make melee players have to run away et cetc,

boons are supplied by radius uptoo a Maximum count and not group, which means Stacking becomes the meta choice which nullifies ranged advantage.

how many full ranged Builds in the meta are there currently :P... 1? 2?... like its obvious why players dont want ranged Hammer.. its because we ALL Know its going to be awful and we will all just go back to D/D.

its Insanity to keep trying to do the same thing and expect Different results. Ranged Weapons wont be used, espically not by a proffession with 0 Weapon Swap... in most builds using any ranged weapon they generally have Melee weapons in the Weapon swap Elementalist dont have that function. No full ranged build in the game is remotely close to how good melee are yet everyon seems to beleive ""this time would be different". it wont be different.

[Zeph.5927]

8 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

There is nothing wrong with wanting variety and I think you and others who are upset that its not a ranged weapon are completely within your right.

What I think people are taking issue with (at least I am) is that you are trying to define Elemenetalist as only a ranged class that is expected to stand back and shoot fireballs at enemies. That is a part of its identity, but to argue its the only part that matters and should be the primary focus of the class is down right wrong. Who are we to tell Arena-Net how to determine what a 'spell caster' is? 

Again, DAGGER, a melee focused weapon, was released for Elementalist AT LAUNCH. Clearly, Melee-oriented game play was, is and will continue to be a focus of the Elementalists kit. 
 

It doesn’t have to be just a ranged class. No one is saying that. What is being said is that it would be nice for a change for this class to receive something that isn’t so heavily melee focused considering that’s basically all we’ve gotten since the first expansion came out. It’d be nice for the mage class to actually get something mage-like for a change.

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, Zeph.5927 said:

It doesn’t have to be just a ranged class. No one is saying that. What is being said is that it would be nice for a change for this class to receive something that isn’t so heavily melee focused considering that’s basically all we’ve gotten since the first expansion came out. It’d be nice for the mage class to actually get something mage-like for a change.

yes. but im saying if we want ranged gameplay. the fight is at the Core root of the problems that plague ranged Gameplay and things need to be reworked to create a place for them in the game itself, Introducing the new elite as a Ranged option isnt gonig to fix the issue.

Ranged weapon Reworks need to be the push.

Change to the way boons works need to be the push.

Raid boss mechanics Forcing Melee into Less Uptime need to be the push.

throwing a Ranged weapon on the pile of dead weapons doesnt help realistically. ranged hammer would likely go completely unused.. we both know this... we'd be using the new elite as a Melee proffession regardless of the weapon offered along with it.

DH Features the Bow. yet its ignored. DHs dont use the Longbow except in a Meme 1 shot build for funzy. but in no serious gameplay is DH Bow actually used.. and litterally not at all in PvE.

Deadeye features the Rifle.. yet completely ignored for Daredevil Melee Gameplay with Staff.

Ranged weapons tend to just go unused

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Zeph.5927 said:

It doesn’t have to be just a ranged class. No one is saying that. What is being said is that it would be nice for a change for this class to receive something that isn’t so heavily melee focused considering that’s basically all we’ve gotten since the first expansion came out. It’d be nice for the mage class to actually get something mage-like for a change.

Well, if you insist ele is a 'mage', and ele is getting hammers, then yes, according to how Anet defines ele, it hammers is 'mage-like' and it's getting those. 

I mean, what is your complain here? That ele doesn't have enough good ranged options or that Ele isn't 'mage' enough for you ... because those are TWO COMPLETELY separate complaints. Whether Ele gets a melee or ranged weapons has little to do with whether Anet is conforming closely enough to the 'mage' class design rulebook for your tastes. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 minute ago, Zeph.5927 said:

It doesn’t have to be just a ranged class. No one is saying that. What is being said is that it would be nice for a change for this class to receive something that isn’t so heavily melee focused considering that’s basically all we’ve gotten since the first expansion came out. It’d be nice for the mage class to actually get something mage-like for a change.

But it really does feel like you and others arguing that Mage means Ranged Spell Caster. Catalyst has the "weight of Tyria's fundamental magics" behind it? How is the channeling of the elemental forces not mage like?

Mage can mean Ranged Spellcaster, Spellsword, Magi-Tech Manipulation or anything that uses magic in their combat to enhance their abilities and damage their foes. Catalyst does just that, infusing ancient magics with modern day jade-tech. So Elementalist did get a mage-like elite spec this expansion even though it isn't a ranged spec.

There is nothing wrong with being disappointed that its not a ranged-based spec, but to argue that Elementalist's identity is somehow being lost or replaced because its not a ranged-based spec is wrong.

[EpicName.4523]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not presuming anything ... what Anet thinks the game should be is obvious by how they design the game. Are you actually trying to imply that how Anet designs their classes is not how they think classes should be designed? Care to elaborate on that?

 

They design the game in a certain way because...reasons. You claim to know what these reasons are by seeing Anet designs. The truth is that you don't know why they design the class that way, you presume to know it. 

 

At the same time you imply others are  making presumptions what the class should be. What gives?

Edited September 16, 2021 by EpicName.4523

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

generally confused by this lol.

We talking DH Longbow in PvP?... because at best guard have a build that involves using a Sceptar in PvE 😛 and if we are DH longbow is a Meme... its Funny but it doesnt actually work in competitive SPVP.

https://gw2mists.com/builds/guardian/power-dragonhunter
https://gw2mists.com/builds/guardian/power-guardian

For PVE weaver has a ~38K scepter option but it's condi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whRlwclGrNo

 

[Caid.4932]

I'll be honest. I'm really happy.

D/D ele was my main for the first year or so of the game and i've been playing more or less the same spec for 9 years. Its still one of my favourite specs despite being nerfed to a point of being pretty underwhelming forever ago. Giving me a variation on that with a hammer is frankly great, its all i want really (well i wanted a greatsword actually but hammer is nice too).

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

When you look at the state of core skills on each class and even some of the traits that have been tuned to be on 300second cooldowns, it's obvious they are confused on how a lot of these classes should actually function. Even going to the extremes of nearly erasing those skills from the game by nerfing and giving them very little traits to make them playable in any build aside from faceroll PvE.

 

Engineer turrets, Warrior defense line, Ele Conjurations and glyphs, ranger spirits, etc.

So it's your claim that because of the existence of some skills like 300 second cool downs ... Anet doesn't know how they want to design their especs and players need to step in to tell them what to do? That's absurd and I'm summarily dismissing that claim. 

I can assure you that even with the fraction of existing skills that Anet still need to focus on fixing, this doesn't change the fact that Anet decides how classes are designed (obviously based on how they think they should be designed), whether some players think that design is good or bad. 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[covahlam.6391]

35 minutes ago, Random Wax Orc.7695 said:

I think Elementalist and Ranger are getting Hammer because Hammer is generally unpopular, and this is an artificial attempt to make it popular.

Hammer used to be popular on warrior and guardian, but then those weapons were kitten-canned by nerfs. The problem with Anet's current approach is that they're giving modernized versions of weapons to the new specs while failing to update those weapons on specs that already have them. This causes a lot of unhappiness as Mary the ele player doesn't want to play with hammer while Joe doesn't want to have to play ele in order to use his beloved hammer.

[Gorani.7205]

After a second thought (hammer not my first choice), I still can't cope with Catalyst to giving me a ranged option to break out of the close combat style I am playing for many years now (both in PvE & WvW). When I take a look at the "range brackets" of 0-400 , 400 - 800 and then 800 -1200 (I know that's not the usual GW2 increments), most of the Elementalist combat happens in the close range bracket (Daggers, main and OH; sword exclusively), with only Staff really qualifying for the long range bracket. The middle ground (400 - 800) is only on paper a domain of Warhorn, Scepter and Focus and especially the first two mentioned are the most effective at close range (e.g. Phoenix).

In PvE, where I can survive a lot face to face with enemies, I wanted something for WvW (roaming) that lets me fight Rifle Deadeyes, Scourges  and Longbow Soulbeasts relying on available skills of the Ele profession and not on them making errors for me to have a chance to kill.

In PvE you can stand in Claw of Jormags Icy Grave effect and survive theses days. Another melee profession does not hurt there at all. But the Catalyst (at least the hammer skills) does not give me variety, as Ele is still locked in the no-combat-weapon swap trap.

We still have to see a lot more during the stream, but not giving Eles more choice when it comes to covering range brackets is a missed opportunity in my opinion.

[Puck.3697]

57 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

https://gw2mists.com/builds/guardian/power-dragonhunter
https://gw2mists.com/builds/guardian/power-guardian

For PVE weaver has a ~38K scepter option but it's condi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whRlwclGrNo

 

yes but it is a meme specc, it exists but you wouldnt see it used in a monthly tournament or something realistically..

and yes i didnt say theres Litterally 0 i said theres very few comparitively to melee... and the current BiS Weaver Melee is Also condi so that hardly changes the dynamic. Power weavers pretty dead comparitively.

[Thaia.5146]

I don't come here often. Actually it's my first post on the new forums but I felt the urge to state my opinion this time as an Ele main. 

This needs to be changed imho. There's no words that can describe my dissapointment with another melee spec for Elementalists.

No. Just no. I don't accept the fact that I will probably have to wait another 4 or more years for a decent ranged spec.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Thaia.5146

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 minute ago, Thaia.5146 said:

This needs to be changed imho.

Do you honestly think they are going to redo the entire thing?

[DraconusShade.4590]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup, but 'we' aren't in charge of the design of it. That's not debatable. Anet can't cater to individual desires, so it's disingenuous to claim 'we' want something then fearmonger it's the beginning of the end when 'we' don't get it. 

You do realize the game is on it's 9th year here right? Anet is disconnected from players? Sensational commentary is what that is. 

You do know that the primary thing that GW2 has going for it is the fact that it has pseudo-action-combat, horizontal progression and is B2P right?

 

There are not many MMOs being made that aren't P2W cashgrabs. The major one is WoW and the other one is FF flavoured WoW. 

So GW2 really has had very little competition in this category because no studio wants to touch MMOs with a ten foot pole.

 

So don't come here spouting nonsense about "9th year achievement" and bs like that. ESO came onto the same category with a kitten engine and a thousand performance bugs and it still managed to get a larger playerbase than GW2 despite the horrendous lootbox system *and a subscription incentive*.

It doesn't take much to replicate what GW2 did and ESO proved it. 

GW2 puts out content every 4 years, it better be amazing and exactly what the community wanted.

[Arolandis.8360]

I don't really have a problem with the new spec since it looks like it could be fun. I already love melee Weaver and feeling like the Avatar. I didn't choose Ele to be a mage, personally. But they really do need better ranged options.

What they should do now is buff/speed up Staff and the Ice bow since we really do need better ranged options. (since the new spec isn't going to help with that now)