developers said they will focus on Alliances. Does this mean no new WvW Content?

[Knighthonor.4061]

The developers said that they will be focusing on the new Alliance server match making system.  No telling how long that will take. But then afterwards they said they will work on the rewards.     

 

So does this mean that there are no plans for New WvW gameplay content? How long will we have to wait for new WvW gameplay content to get added? Another whole expansion later? (3-4 years later?) I truly hope that one of the two mystery features of EoD is WvW related.  Siege Turtles 🐢 could have been a missed opportunity, since they won't be in WvW according to the developers.  

Alliances dont really add anything new to do. 

[ASP.8093]

New specs are new content.

[Strider Pj.2193]

Content in WvW isn’t driven by new maps, new bosses, new events.

 

Content in WvW is driven by players.

 

now…. When the developers create systems that make matchups poor, and encourage a lack of engagements, then content dries up.

 

Encouraging engagements allows the players to create content.  It’s one of the few modes that allows the players that ability.

Developer controlled content is in PvE.  

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

The developers said that they will be focusing on the new Alliance server match making system.  No telling how long that will take. But then afterwards they said they will work on the rewards.     

 

So does this mean that there are no plans for New WvW gameplay content? How long will we have to wait for new WvW gameplay content to get added? Another whole expansion later? (3-4 years later?) I truly hope that one of the two mystery features of EoD is WvW related.  Siege Turtles 🐢 could have been a missed opportunity, since they won't be in WvW according to the developers.  

Alliances dont really add anything new to do. 

 

Well they said they're not changing the game play, so basically no. Half meta shakeup with new specs is what we're getting, I think you can figure out which half isn't getting touched.. Then later reward improvements.

[subversiontwo.7501]

2 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

So does this mean that there are no plans for New WvW gameplay content?

This thread stems from either a fundamental misunderstanding of what WvW is or a fundamental misunderstanding of where WvW is.

When people ask for Alliances they ask for Anet to fix the cracked sides of the sandbox so the sand does not run out. They ask for fixes to the spades, buckets and rakes so we can do something with the sand. If you ask for new ways to play the game mode with siege turtles and grand new map strategies you are essentially asking for new toy cars to drive around some track in the sandbox. Things like siege turtles or grand new ways to play sits on a level so far up the wish list that you either can not see what is needed inbetween or can not measure just how far up the distance is.

Mark my words well, I'm not saying siege turtles are a bad idea, I'm saying that there is a very wide gap to get to where they can be implemented in a good way. Not impossible, but distant.

The roadmap we have right now basically amounts to:

1. Get World restructuring done
2. Improve the rewards on the reward tracks (and weekly chests?)
3.  Look for new ways to dish out rewards or a holistic overhaul of rewards systems
4. Possibly look into extended/related issues like scoring and nightcapping
5. Possibly look into vanity rewards like leaderboards through API

Yes, that stuff will likely take them 3-4 years, if we are lucky. So far they've been unable to finish point 1 in 3-6 years. Once we get past it there are so many other things in extension that would be far more valuable than a new mount or new map out of their context; like actually having a vision and develop a system for maps so they more easily can implement them or doing something worthwhile with multi-instancing and existing maps/modes-in-map like OS or EotM. There is tons more stuff to do there than just "please give pips for EotM karma trains, other players scare me".

The vision we have right now basically amounts to:

1. 1. We're trying not to destroy the eco-system of roaming, raiding, pickups, focus, havoc and defense (or we're trying to restore it into something that isn't completely pulled apart). Which btw is 100% correct but also incredibly cautious and unambitious while time is ticking. Everything we've heard lately are the right priorities. The only critique I'd consider is that between programmers and GD's, it is fair that the programmers have nothing new to add, they have a goal and should be focused on it. On the GD side I would have hoped that they would have come a bit further with ideas and how-to's given that months are going by and I am quite skeptical of the whole "you'll get a team after EoD" when EoD itself still shows resources pulled from the competetive team to other teams. It is still the same old of giving without getting so I'm not holding my breath for some post-EoD resource abundance when they still take resources today. Which has been their M.O. since forever and one of the main concrete reasons for why WvW in particular has been left so in the dust. Nothing so far spells any different than 2014, 15, 16, 17 or 18.

Edited September 19, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[Burial.1958]

The thing is what for new Content? A new Map for a third Borderland after the desert debacle?

 

The Only Thing what is needed is a GvG Mode with official Leaderboards.

[Talindra.4958]

2 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

The developers said that they will be focusing on the new Alliance server match making system.  No telling how long that will take. But then afterwards they said they will work on the rewards.     

 

So does this mean that there are no plans for New WvW gameplay content? How long will we have to wait for new WvW gameplay content to get added? Another whole expansion later? (3-4 years later?) I truly hope that one of the two mystery features of EoD is WvW related.  Siege Turtles 🐢 could have been a missed opportunity, since they won't be in WvW according to the developers.  

Alliances dont really add anything new to do. 

I think what they are doing is new content already.. and it isn't a simple project..

there is a lot to fix for wvw players for now.. so they are doing it bit by bit.. 

as content wise.. what kind of content do you expect?

Edited September 19, 2021 by Talindra.4958

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

The thing is what for new Content? A new Map for a third Borderland after the desert debacle?

 

The Only Thing what is needed is a GvG Mode with official Leaderboards.

 

That's like bringing raids to pve, a small percentage are going to care, then the in betweens will try it, get rekt'd and then move on. It would also have nothing to do with wvw, might as well ask them to make instanced battlegrounds instead.

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Content in WvW isn’t driven by new maps, new bosses, new events.

 

Content in WvW is driven by players.

 

now…. When the developers create systems that make matchups poor, and encourage a lack of engagements, then content dries up.

 

Encouraging engagements allows the players to create content.  It’s one of the few modes that allows the players that ability.

Developer controlled content is in PvE.  

Thanks for saying what must be said.  I was about to ask what "New WvW Gameplay content" means to the OP.  We can make guesses, but I'd rather try to understand the OP.

[Strider Pj.2193]

34 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Thanks for saying what must be said.  I was about to ask what "New WvW Gameplay content" means to the OP.  We can make guesses, but I'd rather try to understand the OP.

Yeah, I kind of jumped the gun a little..  

[Knighthonor.4061]

51 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Thanks for saying what must be said.  I was about to ask what "New WvW Gameplay content" means to the OP.  We can make guesses, but I'd rather try to understand the OP.

New Maps, New Events, New Siege or New Siege mechanics, New Objectives/Missions, New WvW Mastery traits, New Features. Just to name a few things. 

Alliance are just a new server link method. Nothing changes about the gameplay,  especially when you not even in a Guild or a top leader in a WvW Guild. Nothing will change for these players. So thats another 4 years potentially that we will be running around waiting for new gameplay Features. 

Fighting players isn't New content, since its going to be the same recycled fights.        

The limited gameplay was one of the major factors for why WvW originally fell off in popularity and population by proxy.  Why continue another 3 to 4 years with no gameplay updates to WvW yet again? Do the WvW developers have a vision?  Alliances will be another community breaking game design decision by Anet. Thats all we get. The people thats been complacent with this will keep on cheering on this descent

[Talindra.4958]

those are not going to solve the basic problem of wvw.. they are going back to basic before adding new event new map new siege new mechanic. 

[Pacificterror.7805]

8 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Siege Turtles 🐢 could have been a missed opportunity, since they won't be in WvW according to the developers.

They said the Siege Tortoise will not be in WvW upon release, but they didn't rule them out from being added later on. I can understand that approach - especially if they're worried about unintended consequences. It makes sense to take it one gamemode at a time.

I get what you're saying as a whole. I just don't know how much I 'need' anything new...I love WvW. I haven't spent thousands of hours in the gamemode like some of you, though, so I can understand how it's stale after years.

[ASP.8093]

4 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Fighting players isn't New content, since its going to be the same recycled fights.

New specs, new meta, new zerging and roaming environment. (Hopefully a "catch-up" balance pass on some of the old stuff as well, to go with it.)

This has far more longevity than adding any kind of events or "new siege mechanics."

Edited September 20, 2021 by ASP.8093

[Knighthonor.4061]

7 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

New specs, new meta, new zerging and roaming environment. (Hopefully a "catch-up" balance pass on some of the old stuff as well, to go with it.)

This has far more longevity than adding any kind of events or "new siege mechanics."

WvW has had all of that over the last 9 years and the population only went down. Those things don't hold or improve the popularity and population of WvW.

[ASP.8093]

• 9-year-old game.

• "The population went down."

Yes.

[Knighthonor.4061]

9 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

• 9-year-old game.

• "The population went down."

Yes.

Mode*

 

You forgot a part

Edited September 20, 2021 by Knighthonor.4061

[Chaba.5410]

13 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

New Maps, New Events, New Siege or New Siege mechanics, New Objectives/Missions, New WvW Mastery traits, New Features. Just to name a few things. 

Alliance are just a new server link method. Nothing changes about the gameplay,  especially when you not even in a Guild or a top leader in a WvW Guild. Nothing will change for these players. So thats another 4 years potentially that we will be running around waiting for new gameplay Features. 

Fighting players isn't New content, since its going to be the same recycled fights.        

The limited gameplay was one of the major factors for why WvW originally fell off in popularity and population by proxy.  Why continue another 3 to 4 years with no gameplay updates to WvW yet again? Do the WvW developers have a vision?  Alliances will be another community breaking game design decision by Anet. Thats all we get. The people thats been complacent with this will keep on cheering on this descent

Thanks for clarifying.

Generally "content" refers to other players because they're the ones who generate content in sandbox PvP style games (as opposed to "curated content" in themeparks).  So you'll get a bunch of answers here based on that concept.  New maps are just empty, lonely places without other players.  New siege needs players to operate.  New structures can't be taken unless other players already own them, etc.

Maybe "gameplay" or "gameplay mechanics" is a better term to use, like you switched to using in your post.  A lot of those things you list alter the gameplay in the sandbox, alter the way players engage the content to gain competitive advantages.  Think about how tactivators altered fights or how watchtower and auto-upgrades altered how people moved around the map.  The shield generator altered how sieges got played.

From the last interview of Anet devs that Mighty Teapot did, it sounded like a lot of these current gameplay features or mechanics were also being looked at.  I don't recall if they said anything about new maps or new features though.  The WvW population is a little funny because maybe half of them want new gameplay altering features because changes can draw interest and the other half are apprehensive of changes because they have the potential to make gameplay worse.  We all saw what happened, for example, with desert borderland.  A lot of those changes were not actually good for WvW and made people quit too.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

WvW has had all of that over the last 9 years and the population only went down. Those things don't hold or improve the popularity and population of WvW.

We also got some new content (map, gliding, mount, guild upgrades, shield gen, events, rewards) and that might have actually contributed to the decline in population when considering most those things got slapped onto the game mode without much (if any at all) consideration of the largely negative consequences to the game mode and especially the PvP aspect (which is ultimatively what sets WvW apart).

So i'd rather have them revisit and and rework (or just straight remove) some of their old "new" content before adding more annoying gimmicks that end up doing more harm than good.

[Blocki.4931]

The content is the replayability of the gameplay, which is killing players, taking objectives, sieging, skirmishing etc.

The devs need to make sure this works.

At the same time the rewards also play a role here, since they are the main reason many people start playing something, which then gets them hopefully hooked in the fundamentals. Pretty nice they plan on updating that, especially the reward tracks.

[kash.9213]

19 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

This thread stems from either a fundamental misunderstanding of what WvW is or a fundamental misunderstanding of where WvW is.

When people ask for Alliances they ask for Anet to fix the cracked sides of the sandbox so the sand does not run out. They ask for fixes to the spades, buckets and rakes so we can do something with the sand. If you ask for new ways to play the game mode with siege turtles and grand new map strategies you are essentially asking for new toy cars to drive around some track in the sandbox. Things like siege turtles or grand new ways to play sits on a level so far up the wish list that you either can not see what is needed inbetween or can not measure just how far up the distance is.

Mark my words well, I'm not saying siege turtles are a bad idea, I'm saying that there is a very wide gap to get to where they can be implemented in a good way. Not impossible, but distant.

The roadmap we have right now basically amounts to:

1. Get World restructuring done
2. Improve the rewards on the reward tracks (and weekly chests?)
3.  Look for new ways to dish out rewards or a holistic overhaul of rewards systems
4. Possibly look into extended/related issues like scoring and nightcapping
5. Possibly look into vanity rewards like leaderboards through API

Yes, that stuff will likely take them 3-4 years, if we are lucky. So far they've been unable to finish point 1 in 3-6 years. Once we get past it there are so many other things in extension that would be far more valuable than a new mount or new map out of their context; like actually having a vision and develop a system for maps so they more easily can implement them or doing something worthwhile with multi-instancing and existing maps/modes-in-map like OS or EotM. There is tons more stuff to do there than just "please give pips for EotM karma trains, other players scare me".

The vision we have right now basically amounts to:

1. 1. We're trying not to destroy the eco-system of roaming, raiding, pickups, focus, havoc and defense (or we're trying to restore it into something that isn't completely pulled apart). Which btw is 100% correct but also incredibly cautious and unambitious while time is ticking. Everything we've heard lately are the right priorities. The only critique I'd consider is that between programmers and GD's, it is fair that the programmers have nothing new to add, they have a goal and should be focused on it. On the GD side I would have hoped that they would have come a bit further with ideas and how-to's given that months are going by and I am quite skeptical of the whole "you'll get a team after EoD" when EoD itself still shows resources pulled from the competetive team to other teams. It is still the same old of giving without getting so I'm not holding my breath for some post-EoD resource abundance when they still take resources today. Which has been their M.O. since forever and one of the main concrete reasons for why WvW in particular has been left so in the dust. Nothing so far spells any different than 2014, 15, 16, 17 or 18.

Some good points, except WvW is just a large scale match, not a sandbox. Open world is more sandbox but even limited in that aspect in GW2. In an open world game the players would be the content because the world would be lived in and influenced by the players, but in this game mode it has to be the players, the structure, and the gimmicks. WvW will need new and or updated content, especially content or features that connect WvW to the rest of the game. 

That's unless post alliance changes will keep the momentum of fights and map hot spots perpetually driven by player activity. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by kash.9213

[Chaba.5410]

33 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Some good points, except WvW is just a large scale match, not a sandbox. Open world is more sandbox but even limited in that aspect in GW2. In an open world game the players would be the content because the world would be lived in and influenced by the players, but in this game mode it has to be the players, the structure, and the gimmicks. WvW will need new and or updated content, especially content or features that connect WvW to the rest of the game. 

That's unless post alliance changes will keep the momentum of fights and map hot spots perpetually driven by player activity. 

Arguably it's a partial sandbox.  Or at least players treat it as such when they engage in activity that is not "as intended".  It's certainly not curated content.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[Woop S.7851]

All interesting points above 👍

After viewing the World restructuring video (really appreciate the communication from @Josh Davis.7865 & devs by the way), it maybe best to remain cautiously optimistic at this point as any system updates will likely happen after EOD depending upon the direction/finance/resource allocation on the business side (not solely from code/design)

• PvP matchmaking algorithm (5v5 with timecap'd short matches) already tries its best to balance both teams by using rank & professions as mathinputs (where players 'wait' in a lobby to start a 'fair' match - GW1 did this too)

After the betas, there'll be a crossroad (unavoidable):

• Short route: Multiple instanced matches similar to the 4-hour matchups in EOTM - GW1 Factions Devs for sure ran into this same issue when making the original AB. (PvE gear/skins: Monetization possible)
• Medium route: 50v50 PvP? with standardized gear on a map similar in size to EB while leaving the current WvW untouched (PvP gear/skins: less Monetization)
• Hard/long route: Invest in more Hardware/Ram, create/run conditional algorithms 24/7 based on 'mathinputs' from players/alliances (huge math operations/calculations) in order to output as closely as possible 'balanced' matches. (PvE gear/skins: Monetization possible) However, even then it won't be perfect if say 1 Alliance loves to run 50-Ranger Squads while camping Stonemist when others are asleep (nightcap)...How can the algorithm (very logical/pragmatic in nature) deal with match-making around this scenario & alter player behavior so it's fair? Breaking the 50-ranger Alliance apart might cause social uproar? (blood on the forums streets) 😆

Once a decision is made, the next steps will likely involve UI/UX/Tag/LFG...if resources permits...*fingers crossed 🤞, it's going to be a long road ahead...some resources/references below, hope these will help! Thanks!
 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Woop S.7851

[Svarty.8019]

On 9/19/2021 at 8:22 PM, Knighthonor.4061 said:

The developers said that they will be focusing on the new Alliance server match making system.  No telling how long that will take. But then afterwards they said they will work on the rewards.     

 

So does this mean that there are no plans for New WvW gameplay content? How long will we have to wait for new WvW gameplay content to get added? Another whole expansion later? (3-4 years later?) I truly hope that one of the two mystery features of EoD is WvW related.  Siege Turtles 🐢 could have been a missed opportunity, since they won't be in WvW according to the developers.  

Alliances dont really add anything new to do. 

You know, I always had a thought that they might change garrison so it was unique to WvW and not just a copy-paste of the one in Queensdale.

[ASP.8093]

7 hours ago, Woop S.7851 said:

Invest in more Hardware/Ram, create/run conditional algorithms 24/7 based on 'mathinputs' from players/alliances (huge math operations/calculations) in order to output as closely as possible 'balanced' matches.

There's absolutely no computational bottleneck here. Crunching player stats once a week or once a month costs next to nothing on the scale that GW2 operates on (I work for a much smaller company than Anet, and I push a button that processes 1GB+ of data through BigQuery like 100 times a day without even thinking about it). The Intro to Computer Science type stuff you've posted is important for students who need to learn not to write O(n^2) type algorithms everywhere, but your data isn't stored in a flat array that needs to be MergeSorted in place or whatever.

Collecting the stats in the first place isn't very difficult, either. The only challenge is figuring out what stats you actually care about in the first place.

Edited September 21, 2021 by ASP.8093