Nerf Necromancer

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 10/4/2021 at 2:23 AM, mortrialus.3062 said:

If someone flings themselves into the middle of a team fight with zero regard for positioning, defensive cooldowns, their enemies' offensive cooldowns, and are too dumb to press anything other than F1, don't even have their dodge keys bound, they deserve to die and fast. 

Necro is like thief in that no amount of nerfs could possibly make them truly useless. Its nearly impossible to image what it would actually take to genuinely kill necro. 

Also not a fan of this "Don't nerf necro.  Just buff warrior so that warrior can be the only class that deals with necros and that'll fix everything" thing going around.  Necros that get completely outskilled need to be more easily handled by more classes than just warriors.

Necromancer can already facetank other classes' "burst" skills without an issue, no dodges or blinks. Add in protection, shroud damage mitigation and weakness on demand, and you're left wondering how the effin' hell did this class make it through the 2020 balance update as is. Then there's the Vampiric Aura + minion lifesteal slapping you in the face with sustain that puts dedicated supports to shame.

OP is right. This has gone on far too long.

Edited October 22, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Morwath.9817]

19 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Necromancer can already facetank other classes' "burst" skills without an issue, no dodges or blinks. Add in protection, shroud damage mitigation and weakness on demand, and you're left wondering how the effin' hell did this class make it through the 2020 balance update as is. Then there's the Vampiric Aura + minion lifesteal slapping you in the face with sustain that puts dedicated supports to shame.

OP is right. This has gone on far too long.

 

Don't you think that simply nerfing necromancer doesn't fix issues that after some past nerfs other builds just suck? Wouldn't it be better to buff said builds so they can fight minionmancer as equal? Personaly I'd rather buff Scrapper/Druid/Mallyx/Spellbreaker/Core Ele rather than simply nerf another thing again.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 minute ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Don't you think that simply nerfing necromancer doesn't fix issues that after some past nerfs other builds just suck? Wouldn't it be better to buff said builds so they can fight minionmancer as equal? Personaly I'd rather buff Scrapper/Druid/Mallyx/Spellbreaker/Core Ele rather than simply nerf another thing again.

If it were up to me, I'd revert all the changes at least half-way.

[Leonidrex.5649]

Devs dont give a kitten, I have played fractals for 2 years and after all this time I have seen a SINGLE elementalist.
You would think that developers would have looked and thought, hey, elementalist gets played less then kittening 0,01% in fractals, maybe something needs changing? Same kitten here, 40-50% necros all, games every ranking, necros of every kind are broken.
broken in pve, broken in pvp, broken in wvw, the most braindead AND effective at the same time, MAYBE its time to do something?
naaah, everything is fine

[Morwath.9817]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Devs dont give a kitten, I have played fractals for 2 years and after all this time I have seen a SINGLE elementalist.
You would think that developers would have looked and thought, hey, elementalist gets played less then kittening 0,01% in fractals, maybe something needs changing? Same kitten here, 40-50% necros all, games every ranking, necros of every kind are broken.
broken in pve, broken in pvp, broken in wvw, the most braindead AND effective at the same time, MAYBE its time to do something?
naaah, everything is fine

 

It's not "fine", but there are better ways to balance than constantly kitten or remove things.

[Burial.1958]

5 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Devs dont give a kitten, I have played fractals for 2 years and after all this time I have seen a SINGLE elementalist.
You would think that developers would have looked and thought, hey, elementalist gets played less then kittening 0,01% in fractals, maybe something needs changing? Same kitten here, 40-50% necros all, games every ranking, necros of every kind are broken.
broken in pve, broken in pvp, broken in wvw, the most braindead AND effective at the same time, MAYBE its time to do something?
naaah, everything is fine

 In WvWvW i feel sometimes that there are 60% necros. In PVP in every Matchup there are 2-4 or more Necros. It begins really to be boring to see those Necros everywhere. 

The Problem i see is not only the balance. The Skill Cap between the classes is very high. As Necro u can simply faceroll your head on the Keyboard and you get kills. As Thief you have to watch out so many things. As Ele you have to rotate greatly and so on. That means that new player will choose the most effective class and which is easy to play too. The Bandwagooner now they choose everytime the most Broken kitten in the game.  

They should rise the skill cap of some classes. Im not a fan of nerfs. But when u play all classes u see very fast that some classes are much more difficult to play than others.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[KrHome.1920]

11 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

some classes are much more difficult to play than others.

Are you new to the game or just silver division?

[BlackTruth.6813]

Like I said, Necro always has been Warrior but with instant cast + boon convert + z-axis teleport and good condi clears. It also has a brain damage AI spec that people are apparently still complaining about today.

 

It was always a braindamage class since the beginning of the game. Warrior had builds back in the day that could chain CC 100-0 people, and sure Warrior had more burst at one point. The main difference? Necro was tankier if people knew how to kite/bait out stances, Necro has had points in time where it NEVER cared about your stability because they could simply brute force through it while Warrior had to wait it out. Necro tells are very annoying too it's an instant cast class as well, also Necro was a tank that had z-axis teleport.

 

Warrior, at it's prime as a DPS, could hold point but so could Necro and Necro had better range options.

 

Assuming that Ranger/Guard/Mes didn't exist, Necro would be the most brain damage class because this class is just landing instant cast fears + positioning + being tanky isn't really hard, it's always been this way.

[Vancho.8750]

17 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Devs dont give a kitten, I have played fractals for 2 years and after all this time I have seen a SINGLE elementalist.
You would think that developers would have looked and thought, hey, elementalist gets played less then kittening 0,01% in fractals, maybe something needs changing? Same kitten here, 40-50% necros all, games every ranking, necros of every kind are broken.
broken in pve, broken in pvp, broken in wvw, the most braindead AND effective at the same time, MAYBE its time to do something?
naaah, everything is fine

Ele does not get much play cause Firebrand/Rev comp exists, and tempest is probably the most OP healer in the game, but it doesn't bring quickness, alacrity or stability. Firebrand/Rev is the meta cause it brings everything needed for the group in 5 man, you don't have much leeway of what you can pick and you get the best most condensed builds in there as meta, ele just doesn't lock in with any other build to form another comp.
Necro builds tend to do one thing really good and you can switch between them on encounter, since all the specs play differently, it is not about easy or hard it is about build variation that performs better at certain tasks, and necro can fill different tasks with different build. 

I'm more inclined to believe that necro just works and the rest of the profession are just well, bad and do not perform anything different from their core design. So instead of screaming nerf that nerf this, which got stuff like Tempest deleted from the pvp meta by the way, and ask yourself is necro that good or you profession doesn't do much.

Personally I played warrior allot in all modes, but it was just sidenoder in pvp no other niche to fill, I was kinda happy that you can play Support at one point but the screeching harpies overnerfed it, in PVE I bring banners and dps and WvW you have bubble, the kitten thing is just to rigid in the build department since it is useful for one thing only. You can't be a good support in PVE, you do not have gank build for PVP and you do not have damage dealer build for zerg WvW at least it does one thing good and people need you in PVE and WvW, but with some small changes it can get deleted from the modes since it doesn't have variation to fall back to if something happens like it happened in SPVP. 
You ask how many ele's i see in fractals, I'll ask how many berserkers do you see in PVP, and I'm quite sure it is not necro's fault that berserker is not played.         

[Burial.1958]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:28 AM, KrHome.1920 said:

Are you new to the game or just silver division?

 I'm Gold 3 on the way to Plat. And new sure, im very new to this game.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:28 AM, KrHome.1920 said:

Are you new to the game or just silver division?

are you old to the game and still think classes are equally difficult ?

[Ghos.1326]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:49 AM, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Don't you think that simply nerfing necromancer doesn't fix issues that after some past nerfs other builds just suck? Wouldn't it be better to buff said builds so they can fight minionmancer as equal? Personaly I'd rather buff Scrapper/Druid/Mallyx/Spellbreaker/Core Ele rather than simply nerf another thing again.

Nope because if we buff the things you suggested, we start to slowly move back into powercreep, which will destroy the game again.

[Morwath.9817]

11 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Nope because if we buff the things you suggested, we start to slowly move back into powercreep, which will destroy the game again.

 

If you nerf Necro, it won't make <insert not viable spec currently> suddenly viable, you will just see double Revenants each game, or double Holos just without Necros. Thus you will only reduce pool of viable classes and builds, thats definietly not way to go.

 

Personaly I think Necro is in perfect spot. If you look at Necro, based on your group composition you can choose between: a) reaper if you got support and you need scary team fighter, b) terrormancer if you have no support, c) minionmancer if you need side noder, d) scrouge if you want to bring some support for your team and damage at same time.

 

This how it should look for any other class. They should have viable options.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

31 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

If you nerf Necro, it won't make <insert not viable spec currently> suddenly viable, you will just see double Revenants each game, or double Holos just without Necros. Thus you will only reduce pool of viable classes and builds, thats definietly not way to go.

 

Personaly I think Necro is in perfect spot. If you look at Necro, based on your group composition you can choose between: a) reaper if you got support and you need scary team fighter, b) terrormancer if you have no support, c) minionmancer if you need side noder, d) scrouge if you want to bring some support for your team and damage at same time.

 

This how it should look for any other class. They should have viable options.

Core Necro need nerfs in departament of Shroud sustain, Scourge need complete rework with how shades work. The only "acceptable" one is Reaper(without Lich Form ofc).
Reality is that the moment you'll buff X to the level of Y, you'll still decrease the pool of viability because some encounters that had some chances of fighting back will be removed completely, which you somehow missed.
You also forgot that the moment that you buff that X and thus reduce possible counters, people will also bandwaggon to that class immediately.
In other words, you're confused and have no idea what you're talking about.

[Lucentfir.7430]

 

11 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Nope because if we buff the things you suggested, we start to slowly move back into powercreep, which will destroy the game again.

Obviously because the effort to try and reach a middle ground of not too overbearing and not just plain bad is just too much effort to actually achieve, especially with this ROBUST balance team we have currently.  You're right so Anet should utterly just either stop production on new E-specs or flat out intentionally make them bad before launch, like Willbender bad, then we wouldn't have to worry about power creep anymore 🙃

[Morwath.9817]

26 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Core Necro need nerfs in departament of Shroud sustain, Scourge need complete rework with how shades work. The only "acceptable" one is Reaper(without Lich Form ofc).
Reality is that the moment you'll buff X to the level of Y, you'll still decrease the pool of viability because some encounters that had some chances of fighting back will be removed completely, which you somehow missed.
You also forgot that the moment that you buff that X and thus reduce possible counters, people will also bandwaggon to that class immediately.
In other words, you're confused and have no idea what you're talking about.

The only "nerfs" Necro needs is Lich Form, because its just awful design and small changes to minionmancer, where minions would do less (passive part), but their deaths upon activation would do more (active part). Won't even comment on Scrouge shades, because they are shades of themselves from the past and are completly more than fine right now compared to their release day.

 

Can you please explain me, how you reduce pool of viability by buffing Spellbreaker, Berserker, Tempest, Scrapper, Ventari Support and Druid a little? Do you think either buffing their damage and/or survivability by 5-10% (I'm huge fan of small steps rather than huge hammer swings) or doing utility buffs (e.g. group stability on overload for Tempest or group stunbreak + stability on swapping to Ventari in case of Revenant) would make current meta choices totaly not viable? I doubt both power Shiro Revenant variants would be anyhow less viable, nor would be Holosmith rendered useless by such changes.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

9 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

The only "nerfs" Necro needs is Lich Form, because its just awful design and small changes to minionmancer, where minions would do less (passive part), but their deaths upon activation would do more (active part). Won't even comment on Scrouge shades, because they are shades of themselves from the past and are completly more than fine right now compared to their release day.

 

Can you please explain me, how you reduce pool of viability by buffing Spellbreaker, Berserker, Tempest, Scrapper, Ventari Support and Druid a little? Do you think either buffing their damage and/or survivability by 5-10% (I'm huge fan of small steps rather than huge hammer swings) or doing utility buffs (e.g. group stability on overload for Tempest or group stunbreak + stability on swapping to Ventari in case of Revenant) would make current meta choices totaly not viable? I doubt both power Shiro Revenant variants would be anyhow less viable, nor would be Holosmith rendered useless by such changes.

Scourge is a failed design, like Firebrand, Mirage and many others, it needs a full rework, because it's simply gamebreaking how they behave and the moment they'll be buffed it'll clown fiesta once again.
The moment you add more stuff you create more powercreep and the distance between classes will be even wider, by adding that simple Stability on Overloads for party you kitten at any CC in the area with certain build, that's unhealthy because it denies vability of specific builds that focuses on boonrips or ccs. Unless you want to have circus on level of Bunker Chronomancer once again. Then you'll have to buff other stuff to counter it again and after that you have to buff Tempest again because it became useless once again and the circle repeats.
You also didn't mention the most important factor here, which are Core classes themselves, you pretty much just spit on them here by wanting to buff e-speces only. I can already see you writing stuff "let's just buff core" then I put my downed Core Elementalist on the table and tell you "buff it without buffing it's e-speces to the level of said e-speces". Here lays a big problem, you can't, the moment you buff core, you'll buff e-speces meaning "e-speces > core" and if you buff only e-speces you also end in "e-speces > core" and that goes to a lot of classes.
 

[Morwath.9817]

17 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Scourge is a failed design, like Firebrand, Mirage and many others, it needs a full rework, because it's simply gamebreaking how they behave and the moment they'll be buffed it'll clown fiesta once again.
The moment you add more stuff you create more powercreep and the distance between classes will be even wider, by adding that simple Stability on Overloads for party you kitten at any CC in the area with certain build, that's unhealthy because it denies vability of specific builds that focuses on boonrips or ccs. Unless you want to have circus on level of Bunker Chronomancer once again. Then you'll have to buff other stuff to counter it again and after that you have to buff Tempest again because it became useless once again and the circle repeats.
You also didn't mention the most important factor here, which are Core classes themselves, you pretty much just spit on them here by wanting to buff e-speces only. I can already see you writing stuff "let's just buff core" then I put my downed Core Elementalist on the table and tell you "buff it without buffing it's e-speces to the level of said e-speces". Here lays a big problem, you can't, the moment you buff core, you'll buff e-speces meaning "e-speces > core" and if you buff only e-speces you also end in "e-speces > core" and that goes to a lot of classes.
 

 

Oh dear. I think you miss the point, so I will try to explain.

 

You say, if we give stability for others as well on Overload, build lacking stability will become oppresive. I would agree with you, if Guardian wouldn't exist. You see, that build already gets stability from Guardian with many other things. It means you never ever should bring Tempest as support because Guardian not only does it, but is better in every possible way, if you can play Guardian you should play Guardian.

 

I also don't think you understand, that balancing e-specs doesn't have to be done by buffing e-specs trait lines directly, I just used e-specs as examples, mentioned Ventari belongs to core. Just while buffing certain e-specs you need to ask yourself what traitlines synergize with them, while don't synergize well with other e-specs and buff there if possible, this way you buff both e-spec and core at same time. It will only work, if you won't overload core trait lines with good things, so having access to three at times gives enough benefit (thus going e-spec means trading one benefit for another, losing viability in one departament to gain in another).

 

I think Necromancer himself is prefect example, of e-specs being as viable as Core. Thats why I said other classes needs to be buffed to Necromancer level. Let me put it this way:

 

Necromancer has viable few roles (side noder, team fighter, semi support).

Proper buffing should lead to allowing other classes to have as many viable builds for multiples roles as well.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Spellhunter.9675]

14 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

are you old to the game and still think classes are equally difficult ?

They are. If you think opposite you are either biased or don't understand the game.

[Ghos.1326]

7 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

If you nerf Necro, it won't make <insert not viable spec currently> suddenly viable, you will just see double Revenants each game, or double Holos just without Necros. Thus you will only reduce pool of viable classes and builds, thats definietly not way to go.

 

Personaly I think Necro is in perfect spot. If you look at Necro, based on your group composition you can choose between: a) reaper if you got support and you need scary team fighter, b) terrormancer if you have no support, c) minionmancer if you need side noder, d) scrouge if you want to bring some support for your team and damage at same time.

 

This how it should look for any other class. They should have viable options.

If you nerf the things that are overperforming it does indeed make other things viable because those things that were pushed out as a result of the thing that was overperforming would no longer be the case, hence opening up avenues for other things to shine.

[Morwath.9817]

10 minutes ago, Ghos.1326 said:

If you nerf the things that are overperforming it does indeed make other things viable because those things that were pushed out as a result of the thing that was overperforming would no longer be the case, hence opening up avenues for other things to shine.

 

Yes, but not really. It leads to constant spiral of nerfs, because ask yourself one simple question.

If you nerf Necromancer today, then what you nerf tomorrow? Revenant? 

Edit: I think way more healthy design/balance philosophy for long term balance is to pick role model class, that is viable in multiple situations and buff trait lines and weapons and utlity skills of other classes to more or less match its level.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Ghos.1326]

1 minute ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Yes, but not really. It leads to constant spiral of nerfs, because ask yourself one simple question.

If you nerf Necromancer today, then what you nerf tomorrow? Revenant? 

That answer is easy: whatever else is way overperforming.

Things that are not overperforming, you simply leave alone. Common sense concept.

Lets go further.

50% INNATE damage reduction while in shroud.

naturally high HP (which is fine)

shroud generation being extremely high, to the point where even when barely hitting anything, they have more than half of their shroud (which acts as their second health bar and takes 50% reduced damage without touching their actual health).

SEVERAL amounts of condition mitigation/clearing on very low cooldowns

access to high amounts of condition bursts, as well as a trait that causes fear to do some very significant damage (900+ PER SECOND on top of their other condition sources)

many skills that can transfer conditions onto another player, which can go along with the condition clears

access to a few "ports" (i say that with quotation marks because there are a few things needed to be done beforehand in order to get those ports)

protection sources that work in tandem with shroud (probably not anymore though after the general notes for stacking damage reduction things, so this one can probably be crossed off)

a lot of boon corruption (which is fine i guess, fits the necro theme so this one can probably be crossed off too)

 

All of this (besides what can be crossed off that I listed) is not an issue? that's very strange.

fun fact about this whole post: I probably missed a lot of other benefits that came as a result of overbuffing a single profession after several people cried that it "just wasn't strong enough". i won't even get into the reaper things, that's a whole extra post i don't feel like making today.

 

I had something I was going to say at the end here but I got disturbed here at work and I lost my train of thought. If I remember I'll just edit this post.

[Morwath.9817]

58 minutes ago, Ghos.1326 said:

That answer is easy: whatever else is way overperforming.

Things that are not overperforming, you simply leave alone. Common sense concept.

 

I don't think it's common sense. Not at all. Let me give you two examples.

 

Would you nerf Thief as it's "overperforming" in his role? 

As "Thief is the only class not having in team could be considered throwing" - I believe Teapot said so, and I believe its more than true, if you look at competitive scene (now & in the past). Obviously, it doesn't mean Thief mobility needs any nerfs.

 

Maybe you would go after nerfing core Guardian? As its "overperforming" compared to Druid, Firebrand, Tempest or Ventari Revenant? I mean, you need to realize some things are "overperforming" compared to other things in certain role, not because they are super powerful, but more because other things are highly underperforming in given enviroment. That requires adjusting their  capabilities so they can stand as equal on their own.

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Ghos.1326]

35 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

I don't think it's common sense. Not at all. Let me give you two examples.

 

Would you nerf Thief as it's "overperforming" in his role? 

As "Thief is the only class not having in team could be considered throwing" - I believe Teapot said so, and I believe its more than true, if you look at competitive scene (now & in the past). Obviously, it doesn't mean Thief mobility needs any nerfs.

 

Maybe you would go after nerfing core Guardian? As its "overperforming" compared to Druid, Firebrand, Tempest or Ventari Revenant? I mean, you need to realize some things are "overperforming" compared to other things in certain role, not because they are super powerful, but more because other things are highly underperforming in given enviroment. That requires adjusting their  capabilities so they can stand as equal on their own.

 

You've already made it clear you'd rather have powercreep than actual balance. I disagree. Everything you're saying is an argument to have powercreep. Considering how stupid the game was when we had the powercreep (couldn't even make one mistake or you were dead), i'd prefer we didn't have the powercreep and had the same kind of power levels that core had before elite specs. The right things did the right damage, and the right things had the right amount of defenses.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Ghos.1326 said:

You've already made it clear you'd rather have powercreep than actual balance. I disagree. 

 

You might disagree, but he's right.

In fact you are also right...

the reason is because all things in the game, are relative to all other things to the game. Thus, both (numerical) buffs and nerfs give you the same kind of qualitative result. Better balance and more diversity is not one of those results. Both operations simply shift the meta evolution from one meta to another meta. 

I've explained this maybe...a hundred times now on the forum... so I'm just gonna link a the last few comments on a thread that you should read. Balance/diversity is far from being a common sense problem...its probably one of the most difficult problems (today in the world) and that's why "common sense" doesn't work because if it did then it would have worked by now.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684