no one plays raids

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

It's funny, I remember conversations with those who wanted raiding that saw highest tier gear as a way to keep people raiding. I can't say all raiders feel this way, but at least some do, that the carrot needs to be  there so that the game area they love doesn't die off.

The funny part is that I've seen so many WvW say the exact opposite. They dread the idea of WvW becoming the easiest way to get the high tier gear, because it means a flood of people just doing it for the carrot, not because they actually like the area.

Like others, I don't have the schedule that allows me to set aside guaranteed blocks of hours to commit to raiding. I can, however, jump into WvW and follow a squad or flip camps. I've gotten back into WvW recently, am enjoying it immensely, and actually feel like my skill has grown in just the last two weeks as I'm learning.

At the rate I play, it looks like it might take close to six months before I'll be able to get just one piece of legendary armor, but that's faster than the never I'd get legendary through raiding.

If the game area needs a carrot to not die off, why does it deserve to live. Or why does that carrot have to be unique to it. The carrot would have to be the skins. PvP is faster to get legendary armor than WvW but....if you like WvW whether you're a great player or not, you can do whatever you want in WvW, the same things you usually do and still...eventually...get legendary armor. Why does a WvW player not have to jump through hoops, they just have to wait, where as I have to jump through hoops because that's not my primary area of interest?

[Gibson.4036]

37 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

If the game area needs a carrot to not die off, why does it deserve to live. Or why does that carrot have to be unique to it. The carrot would have to be the skins. PvP is faster to get legendary armor than WvW but....if you like WvW whether you're a great player or not, you can do whatever you want in WvW, the same things you usually do and still...eventually...get legendary armor. Why does a WvW player not have to jump through hoops, they just have to wait, where as I have to jump through hoops because that's not my primary area of interest?

Preach it, brother!

[Touchme.1097]

I am one of those who stopped playing Raids investing more game time in WvW which makes sense because WvW is the end game of GW2.

I don't like the elitism that is spreading in the Raiding community populated by hardcore players because it's not an inclusive and welcoming environment.

Strike missions are going to replace Raids, so I welcome the OP's suggestion. Nobody will care about raids once EoD is released, might as well allow casual players to explore every bits of that tiny content.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

12 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

This all has me remembering back nine years ago.

GW2 was envisioned as a different kind of MMO. An MMO for people who hate MMOs, if you will. It launched with exotics as BIS gear, and that was easily achieved shortly after hitting 80. There were no raids.

From my point of view, it seemed that this niche game, the game for people who don't like run of the mill MMOs, was too successful at launch. It not only got those of us looking for something different than the standard MMO model, it got a ton of the regular MMO crowd eager to try the new thing and take a break from their standard MMO homes.

Suddenly the forums were full of requests for raids and more "progression".

A lot of the people who were hoping GW2 would live up to its vision of being an oasis away from gear progression and elite content focused at a small portion of the player base argued that maybe this game just wasn't the game for those who desperately needed raiding and new gear to chase.

I remember the conversation going something like:

"But we love raids, we do it for the challenge!"

"Then you'll want better rewards."

"Well, if it's the hardest content shouldn't it get the best rewards? And people won't do it if they can get the same gear elsewhere!"

"But, I thought you did it for the challenge?"

Four months after launch, we got the first fractals, which were intended to satisfy the desire for endgame challenging PvE. We also got the first ascended gear. At the time, hey, you only really needed ascended for fractals, so no big deal, and it's just a few trinkets so you can do the whole agony hamsterwheel.

A year later, ascended weapons and armor. Two years after that, the first raids with HoT. Not to mention, open world content that really feels better with some ascended trinkets and a weapon or two. You can see in HoT the peak of ArenaNet deciding they needed to design for the skilled players who want challenge.

In response to raiders feeling that the development cycle is too protracted because of the split between fractals and raids, that's because both of those areas are supposed to be an answer to the same group of people. The "we need challenging endgame content" crowd. Put a team esclusively on raids, and one on fractals, and where do you take those extra creators? From WvW? PvP? Open world?

From launch, this game has had a tension between those who specifically came here because of the original vision of an MMO that was different, more casual, more community friendly and those who remember how much they enjoyed things like raiding in other games and want to find it here.

Both populations have legitimate ways they like to enjoy an MMO. The tragedy, IMO, is that GW2 has spent an awful lot of time trying to straddle many different types of play. ArenaNet had a clear vision in the beginning. Launch response seemed to honestly surprise them. More people came on than expected, and it seems they have spent a lot of time lurching between visions in order to retain as much as possible of that wide group. This has made for a less than satisfying experience for many communities, from casual to elite, because the shoe doesn't quite fit since it keeps getting measured to try and fit everyone.

I wouldn't try and demonize those spooky "others" with rose tinted lenses.  The reason why Anet moved away from their initial design philosophy was because it failed.  Making the entire game end-game just meant that everything was same-y and built for the lowest common denominator.  Players picked up the game, played it for a bit, then got bored and left in mass with more confidence than ever in the default MMO formula.  Fact is that people are aspirational: they want to work hard and get rewarded for their hard work.  There's nothing wrong with these people who want a carrot to chase.  Having a low bar and nothing to chase just meant that everything was worthless.  Not much point to gold, or crafting, or loot, or anything when the entire economic goal of the game can be acquired in an afternoon.

 

In order to really flex the chops of the combat system and aspire players to be greater, you need difficult content.  On the other side, the game was plenty toxic (far moreso than now) at launch as well.  The dungeon groups were the stuff of nightmares back then.  Turns out, you don't need super-elite content for super-toxic elites to come and fester in a game.

[yann.1946]

23 hours ago, Neosayayin.3498 said:

you are making raids for the 5% of the player bases thats bad,

This is not nessecarily true, and for some reason people keep using it as an argument.

23 hours ago, Neosayayin.3498 said:

 

don't care if is solo playing or group but the content is bad implemented, the people that want to play raids don't have a option and they discard this mode because there no way they can play with gear or with out it, is bad an the white knithe are making the game worst 

Maybe you dont know but if you get kicked after having killed vg for example, the next time you enter you can go to spiritwood. 

Their are problems with raids absolutely, but the things you are giving as examples are not those.

[Mik.3401]

10 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

A not so good PvPer that plays PvP will eventually get legendary armor period. Why is that not broken.  I'm a mediocre PvPer and I'm getting legendary armor, it's just taking me a while. So why shouldn't the same be true for open world PvE?  

PvP only shows commitment or you like that, but you're doing the same thing EVERY PvPer does. Are you tell me you couldn't make an open world PvE version that shows the same time/commitment?  Because  I think you can.

The difference between raid armor and PvP armor is the unique skin. So take the skin off the table and make it a non-unique skin. one that's easy to get. Make it take a long time doing what people want to do. It keeps people in the game, because they're not playing something they don't want.  Or have you never heard of people grinding through something they don't like and then walking away from the game because it's killed their love for the game.  Even even heard that said about the skyscale. 

There's no good reason to have two "pillars" of Guild Wars 2, PvP and WvW players get a legendary doing what they normally do and have PvE players jump through hoops. You're not talking about skill you're talking about time and they're not equal.

Again, you just got an ascended piece and you say you’re getting the legendary armor xD at some point you will realise it takes a muscle.

Yes! Skyscale is a perfect example - casual OW/story players just don’t have the patience and dedication for working hard for high end stuff. Most of them hate skyscale it seems.

Anyways how the OW legendary could be earned? Through gathering materials? Killing mobs? Doing events which rarely spawn? All of these is boring and frustrating so I can already picture people moaning about it.

Besides no shade but what casual players need legendary armor for? To theory craft whether either burst or tank OW mobs? 😂 

 

[yann.1946]

18 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

This all has me remembering back nine years ago.

GW2 was envisioned as a different kind of MMO. An MMO for people who hate MMOs, if you will. It launched with exotics as BIS gear, and that was easily achieved shortly after hitting 80. There were no raids.

From my point of view, it seemed that this niche game, the game for people who don't like run of the mill MMOs, was too successful at launch. It not only got those of us looking for something different than the standard MMO model, it got a ton of the regular MMO crowd eager to try the new thing and take a break from their standard MMO homes.

Suddenly the forums were full of requests for raids and more "progression".

A lot of the people who were hoping GW2 would live up to its vision of being an oasis away from gear progression and elite content focused at a small portion of the player base argued that maybe this game just wasn't the game for those who desperately needed raiding and new gear to chase.

You can have difficult content without gear progression, and they specificly advertised the game as such.

Dungeons where meant for these people and the tequatl rework and TT wurm where meant as difficult content.

18 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I remember the conversation going something like:

"But we love raids, we do it for the challenge!"

"Then you'll want better rewards."

"Well, if it's the hardest content shouldn't it get the best rewards? And people won't do it if they can get the same gear elsewhere!"

"But, I thought you did it for the challenge?"

This is such a ridiculous strawmen, either you are completely misguided or arguing in bad faith here.

Any gamemode needs rewards to survive, why would you think raids would be any different?

 

18 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Four months after launch, we got the first fractals, which were intended to satisfy the desire for endgame challenging PvE. We also got the first ascended gear. At the time, hey, you only really needed ascended for fractals, so no big deal, and it's just a few trinkets so you can do the whole agony hamsterwheel.

This was already a problem, they never should have added ascended in the first place. But it was not done exclusivly for the hardcore players though.

18 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

A year later, ascended weapons and armor. Two years after that, the first raids with HoT. Not to mention, open world content that really feels better with some ascended trinkets and a weapon or two. You can see in HoT the peak of ArenaNet deciding they needed to design for the skilled players who want challenge.

Or you know, games should improve the difficulty over time to keep people engaged.

18 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

In response to raiders feeling that the development cycle is too protracted because of the split between fractals and raids, that's because both of those areas are supposed to be an answer to the same group of people. The "we need challenging endgame content" crowd. Put a team esclusively on raids, and one on fractals, and where do you take those extra creators? From WvW? PvP? Open world?

You mean pvp and wvw which where pretty abandont? or OW which always gets a disproportional amount of resources.

18 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

From launch, this game has had a tension between those who specifically came here because of the original vision of an MMO that was different, more casual, more community friendly and those who remember how much they enjoyed things like raiding in other games and want to find it here.

These groups are not exclusive to eachother. And its a really unhealthy lens through which to view this tension.

18 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Both populations have legitimate ways they like to enjoy an MMO. The tragedy, IMO, is that GW2 has spent an awful lot of time trying to straddle many different types of play. ArenaNet had a clear vision in the beginning. Launch response seemed to honestly surprise them. More people came on than expected, and it seems they have spent a lot of time lurching between visions in order to retain as much as possible of that wide group. This has made for a less than satisfying experience for many communities, from casual to elite, because the shoe doesn't quite fit since it keeps getting measured to try and fit everyone.

That is just an mmo problem, an mmo needs a healthy population to keep alive, so they are by definition extremely broad games.

[yann.1946]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I wouldn't try and demonize those spooky "others" with rose tinted lenses.  The reason why Anet moved away from their initial design philosophy was because it failed.  Making the entire game end-game just meant that everything was same-y and built for the lowest common denominator.  Players picked up the game, played it for a bit, then got bored and left in mass with more confidence than ever in the default MMO formula.  Fact is that people are aspirational: they want to work hard and get rewarded for their hard work.  There's nothing wrong with these people who want a carrot to chase.  Having a low bar and nothing to chase just meant that everything was worthless.  Not much point to gold, or crafting, or loot, or anything when the entire economic goal of the game can be acquired in an afternoon.

 

In order to really flex the chops of the combat system and aspire players to be greater, you need difficult content.  On the other side, the game was plenty toxic (far moreso than now) at launch as well.  The dungeon groups were the stuff of nightmares back then.  Turns out, you don't need super-elite content for super-toxic elites to come and fester in a game.

To add to the toxicity part, plenty of non instanced groups are toxic. Champtrains being an easy example, and to a lesser degree the placing of toys in chests making them more annoying to loot. 

[Vayne.8563]

19 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

Again, you just got an ascended piece and you say you’re getting the legendary armor xD at some point you will realise it takes a muscle.

Yes! Skyscale is a perfect example - casual OW/story players just don’t have the patience and dedication for working hard for high end stuff. Most of them hate skyscale it seems.

Anyways how the OW legendary could be earned? Through gathering materials? Killing mobs? Doing events which rarely spawn? All of these is boring and frustrating so I can already picture people moaning about it.

Besides no shade but what casual players need legendary armor for? To theory craft whether either burst or tank OW mobs? 😂 

 

I got a LEGENDARY piece, not an ascended piece.  I don't know why you keep thinking I got an ascended (well I did before I got the legendary obviously). The same is true in WvW.  I have one LEGENDARY piece of WvW armor and 1 LEGENDARY piece of PVP armor. 

 

It doesn't matter how long it takes to get legendary armor if I can play a tiny bit at a time and eventually over years even get it all. I can still get it. The thing is, and I keep repeating it and you keep ignoring it, a PvP player who LIKES to PVP, is going to get that armor relatively fast, BY DOING THE SAME THING HE DOES ANYWAY.   Same with WvW.

So you're saying WvW and PvP players can play the way they always play and grind out legendary armor, but PvE players have to jump through specific hoops and do something different.

I keep saying it, you keep ignoring it (as well as insisting for some reason my piece of legendary armor is ascended).

 

So, once again, why can a die hard PvP player play the game he's always played and get legendary armor but I can't.

[Vilin.8056]

The more I see this community the more I see a polarized trait in the humanity.

 

Good players gets it done.

Bad players whine in the forum.

 

When seeing familiar people whining on the forum over the years on something that is supposed to be video game entertainment, I wonder if it is all worth it.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

A not so good PvPer that plays PvP will eventually get legendary armor period. Why is that not broken.  I'm a mediocre PvPer and I'm getting legendary armor, it's just taking me a while. So why shouldn't the same be true for open world PvE?  

PvP only shows commitment or you like that, but you're doing the same thing EVERY PvPer does. Are you tell me you couldn't make an open world PvE version that shows the same time/commitment?  Because  I think you can.

The difference between raid armor and PvP armor is the unique skin. So take the skin off the table and make it a non-unique skin. one that's easy to get. Make it take a long time doing what people want to do. It keeps people in the game, because they're not playing something they don't want.  Or have you never heard of people grinding through something they don't like and then walking away from the game because it's killed their love for the game.  Even even heard that said about the skyscale. 

There's no good reason to have two "pillars" of Guild Wars 2, PvP and WvW players get a legendary doing what they normally do and have PvE players jump through hoops. You're not talking about skill you're talking about time and they're not equal.

Pve is a coop mode, pvp/wvw is a "vs" mode, which means if those competitive modes required actual wins or some insane performance, you would either be forced to intentionally demote to farm worse players (or wins) or count on getting favorable matchmaking. In co-op pve mode, you just have to learn the content while cooperating with other players.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Vayne.8563]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Pve is a coop mode, pvp/wvw is a "vs" mode, which means if those competitive modes required actual wins or some insane performance, you would either be forced to intentionally demote to farm worse players (or wins) or count on getting favorable matchmaking. In co-op pve mode, you just have to learn the content while cooperating with other players.

Irrelevant to what I'm saying.  According to Mike OBrien back in the day anyway, 60% of the playerbase were predominantly PvE, 30% were predominantly WvW and 10% were predominantly PvP.  PvP aren;'t the guys to cater too.  My guess is the largest single demographic of this game is the casual PvEer.  That's more people that you can disenfranchise by percentage. If you pissed off the PvP population it would be a small percentage of the game. But they can do and have fun doing what they do and get legendary armor.

But guys like me, we can't slowly bang away against legendary armor, unless we PvP or WvW (which we don't necessarily enjoy) or raid, which it's been shown most people in the game don't do.

So what you're saying is it's okay to let people PvP as well or as badly as they want and they can over time, eventually get legendary armor, but the bulk of the population shouldn't have that advantage. Instead, like me, they'll be driven into game formats they don't necessarily prefer, which will make them like the game less. It makes me like the game less.  I could get PvP armor much faster if I didn't resent having to do it.  So I'm slowly chipping away at it. Because I'm not going to raid to get it.

End result, I'm enjoying the game less to get something that I'm eventually going to get. I can't see how anyone in good conscience thinks that's good for the game. 

[Gibson.4036]

9 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I wouldn't try and demonize those spooky "others" with rose tinted lenses.  The reason why Anet moved away from their initial design philosophy was because it failed.  Making the entire game end-game just meant that everything was same-y and built for the lowest common denominator.  Players picked up the game, played it for a bit, then got bored and left in mass with more confidence than ever in the default MMO formula.  Fact is that people are aspirational: they want to work hard and get rewarded for their hard work.  There's nothing wrong with these people who want a carrot to chase.  Having a low bar and nothing to chase just meant that everything was worthless.  Not much point to gold, or crafting, or loot, or anything when the entire economic goal of the game can be acquired in an afternoon.

 

In order to really flex the chops of the combat system and aspire players to be greater, you need difficult content.  On the other side, the game was plenty toxic (far moreso than now) at launch as well.  The dungeon groups were the stuff of nightmares back then.  Turns out, you don't need super-elite content for super-toxic elites to come and fester in a game.

My apologies if I came off as demonizing. There are many ways of enjoying games. Some people play for story, some for figuring out the systems in great detail, some for a sense of growth, some for a sense of becoming someone different.

My intent was not to criticize those who play primarily for that sense of growth or to analyze the systems and figure out how to overcome them. The real problem, IMO, is ANet trying to be all things to all people.

I question whether the game really failed. Yes, at first it failed those who wanted very challenging endgame content and vertical progression. But was that failure as a whole? GW2 appeared to get way more players than they anticipated at first, and quickly lost a bunch. But what if the game persisted along its original vision, content to lose that portion of the players and continue with the group it originally targeted?

Of course, none of us have numbers to really know if it could have survived after that initial bubble burst. But I wonder if they got more response than expected, could they have fallen back to expected and continued on.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Gibson.4036]

3 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

 

That is just an mmo problem, an mmo needs a healthy population to keep alive, so they are by definition extremely broad games.

Sure, but even among them, they have flavors and areas they target. GW1 is pretty niche and still operating today. Though you can argue it’s not a true MMO with its lobby based nature.

As to my straw man, that’s how I remember the conversation going. I’m aware memory is a tricky thing, and biased.

[Fuchslein.8639]

14 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

We’ll, it’s not like it doesn’t impact. PVE casuals do get to a point in the game where they either ignore progression or the next step leads them into choosing raids, WvW, or pvp. 
There’s kind of a weird cyclical argument, that raids should have the best gear because is the hardest, but that people should be content without the best gear. There’s a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too to saying gear matters enough because people need progression and matters enough that it should be tied exclusively to challenging content while also saying it’s unnecessary and the PVe casuals should just ignore it.

Then don't be toxic and join a raid-guild. There are a ton of training-raid-guilds out there, not just the big ones where you can easily get lost as an introvert. 

There are always training raids in the lfg if you don't want to join a fixed group. How do I know that? Because I do it that way myself. I just left a really good static group because I realized that I don't have time for fixed dates in the long run. That does not prevent me from raiding.

Up to 50li I have raided even without a fixed group, through training raids and non LI requirements, because there are plenty of videos that explain the bosses, especially Mukluk I can recommend.

Not raids are the problem, not the reward is the problem, not the raiders are the problem, you yourself are the problem and you project your problems, your selfishness on others ...

You can see it as it is, but that's the point. YOU make your own problems.
There have always been toxic players in the game, they also exist in PVE and especially in WVW. There has always been loot hidden behind special content, ect.

And believe me, most raiders wouldn't care if Legy armor was available in pve, the gemshop or just as "suprise, legy armor for everyone". Most, me included would even be happy about it. Then these constant, unnecessary discussions about it would stop which lead to nothing anyway except that both sides put each other down ... 

 

I mean, the only reason for these disscusions are the loot.
What should raiders say? I know people who play gw2 just for raiding and hate the PVE content. So why doesn't the raid get more of the PVE content?
How would that be?
Legy armor and raid skins for pve and pve stuff for raids? Would you guys approve of that? Or would you be mad because for a short time raids would have to get more attention from Anet?

Edited September 25, 2021 by Fuchslein.8639

[Fuchslein.8639]

10 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

The vast majority of "pve-casuals" already don't play raids and leave them alone, after all the constructive suggestions to make the niche gamemode more inviting got shot down by non-constructive shouting from the same usual suspects. The low population is why raids don't really get developed anymore. So i guess the problem did solve itself  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Exactly. So why all this fuss?

Strikes are the easy version of raids, and even this is to hard for the forum-community ...

[yann.1946]

49 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Sure, but even among them, they have flavors and areas they target. GW1 is pretty niche and still operating today. Though you can argue it’s not a true MMO with its lobby based nature.

Yes, in gw2 that is partily the lack of gearprogression.

This is also ironicly the part which makes it really atractive to skilled players as player skill becomes way more profound if you never overlevel content.

Quote

As to my straw man, that’s how I remember the conversation going. I’m aware memory is a tricky thing, and biased.

The strawman is the last part of the sentence. Wanting difficulty and wanting rewards are not exclusive.

So saying " but i thought you wanted difficulty" is a strawmen.

 

If one actually cares about the health of the gamemode they should be for unique rewards in those gamemodes.

 

Now we can debate about what the appropriate rewards should be, but that is a way more nuanced conversation.

Edited September 25, 2021 by yann.1946

[Raknar.4735]

1 minute ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Exactly. So why all this fuss?

Strikes are the easy version of raids, and even this is to hard for the forum-community ...

The problem here is that the average player doesn't play raids (and it wouldn't even be a surprise if this extents to strikes to me). It isn't just the forum-community or whomever you want to use as your scapegoat.

Raids will continue to exist in their sorry state, because parts of its own community don't want changes but complain about the lack of new raids at the same time. Well, they reap what they sow.

[Fuchslein.8639]

6 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

The problem here is that the average player doesn't play raids (and it wouldn't even be a surprise if this extents to strikes to me). It isn't just the forum-community or whomever you want to use as your scapegoat.

Raids will continue to exist in their sorry state, because parts of its own community don't want changes but complain about the lack of new raids at the same time. Well, they reap what they sow.

Thats the thing with the Forum-community.

You read your stuff here and think everyone thinks that way. I personally don't know any raider who would have something against an easy-mode far away from the strikes, against an outsource of the legy-armor ect.

I mean, what do you think if everyone starting GW2 would think if he read the forum or reddit would be meaningful to the whole game community? No one would touch the game after reading stuff here.

But think what you want, you do anyway ^^.

 

And for report. I'M an average player. I play mostly only PVE. In raids I am average and often mess up mechanics and am maybe 3-5 place depending on the group in the DPS. But I was raised that sometimes you have to jump over your own shadow to have shiny things and maybe along the way you even realize that it makes fun. And if not, you just stop and do something else, it's that simple.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Fuchslein.8639

[Raknar.4735]

19 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Thats the thing with the Forum-community.

You read your stuff here and think everyone thinks that way. I personally don't know any raider who would have something against an easy-mode far away from the strikes, against an outsource of the legy-armor ect.

I mean, what do you think if everyone starting GW2 would think if he read the forum or reddit would be meaningful to the whole game community? No one would touch the game after reading stuff here.

But think what you want, you do anyway ^^.

Yeah, that is the thing with the Forum-community. Both this forum as well as reddit have a very vocal minority of usual suspects that are against any suggestion to make raids more available to the average player.

Too bad Anet apparently listened to those, and instead of doing something about raids themselves, they just put them on the back burner in favour of strikes. Kind of like raids aren't salvagable anymore, after Andrew Gray made his post talking about the small audience raids attract.

I mean, you can also continue believing in raids being fine the way they are. Thing is, I don't see any new raid wings in the future.

Edit: Saw your edit about you being an average player. If you raid, you aren't one, since the average player doesn't even touch raids. The average player also does 10x less dmg than some of the actual hardcore players (not the ones here that count themselves to be in the same group but aren't). Anet stated so themselves about the dmg discrepancy.

"And if not, you just stop and do something else, it's that simple." That's what the average player already does with raids. That's why raids are in their current situation of not being developed. If you want more raids, raids have to change (basically what Anet is trying with Strikes). If you're fine with never getting another raid, then be my guest.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Raknar.4735

[Cuks.8241]

You came here and started to complain and now are trying to turn it around on people who raid, when none of them complained and probably even cared about your qq. 

You got strikes, mini raid encounters which are more accesible. Looks like in eod anet is trying to expand them and add various difficulty. So something for everyone. And now I dont even know where the problem is anymore. 

[Fuchslein.8639]

10 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

Yeah, that is the thing with the Forum-community. Both this forum as well as reddit have a very vocal minority of usual suspects that are against any suggestion to make raids more available to the average player.

Too bad Anet apparently listened to those, and instead of doing something about raids themselves, they just put them on the back burner in favour of strikes. Kind of like raids aren't salvagable anymore, after Andrew Gray made his post talking about the small audience raids attract.

I mean, you can also continue believing in raids being fine the way they are. Thing is, I don't see any new raid wings in the future.

Edit: Saw your edit about you being an average player. If you raid, you aren't one, since the average player doesn't even touch raids. The average player also does 10x less dmg than some of the actual hardcore players (not the ones here that count themselves to be in the same group but aren't). Anet stated so themselves about the dmg discrepancy.

"And if not, you just stop and do something else, it's that simple." That's what the average player already does with raids. That's why raids are in their current situation of not being developed. If you want more raids, raids have to change (basically what Anet is trying with Strikes). If you're fine with never getting another raid, then be my guest.

For me, the problem is rather that Anet does not manage to continue content in general. I mean, even the story is so wishy-washy and has so many plot holes.
Anet is not good at creating content and taking it further. With EOD, they will continue to reinvent OW and instanced content 100% sure and then leave those inventions to the side. 

Anet would simply have to start to develop something continuously and not just neglect when a bit backlash comes, which will always come no matter what you do uu.

 

I mean, sure, I'd like to see more raids. I wish for a lot. Including, for example, that they find back to their old style and raids, fractals and OW are again bearable playable and not that everything must be an explosion of effects.

But I don't believe that there will be anything, just like I gave up believing that dungeons will be touched again. Or that Anet will stop making clothing sets instead of armor sets.

But that's why I understand the raiders here who don't want their content to be changed in any way. Because we know what Anet sees as a "change" and what you want as easy-mode, can backfire with Anet's idea very quickly if you look at past projects of Anet that they have "reworked".

The content for this "5%" of players could be ruined, which would then drive these people out of the game completely. While for PVE'ler nothing changes.
And that's just it. You have 97% of the game to yourselves. Why compete with 1% of the game, with the raids, only because you feel excluded from one thing, the legy armor? How old is GW2 now? 9 years? You got along 9 years without Legy armor and its advantages. So why this selfishness over one thing?

[George.9745]

Like... I don't know. If I say anything about casuals I will get banned again. All I can say is that you are wrong. If you are casual play casual items. I grinded a lot for all legendary sets and went through a ton of effort and learning new classes to be as flexible as possible. Making them easier now would really upset me. Would make allmy grind useless. If any casual Timmy can get his legendary armor what's the point in grinding an MMO? Why would I even play this game anymore if someone playing 1hour/week can have the same stuff as me who plays 10h/ day. 

[Raknar.4735]

3 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

For me, the problem is rather that Anet does not manage to continue content in general. I mean, even the story is so wishy-washy and has so many plot holes.
Anet is not good at creating content and taking it further. With EOD, they will continue to reinvent OW and instanced content 100% sure and then leave those inventions to the side. 

Anet would simply have to start to develop something continuously and not just neglect when a bit backlash comes, which will always come no matter what you do uu.

 

I mean, sure, I'd like to see more raids. I wish for a lot. Including, for example, that they find back to their old style and raids, fractals and OW are again bearable playable and not that everything must be an explosion of effects.

But I don't believe that there will be anything, just like I gave up believing that dungeons will be touched again. Or that Anet will stop making clothing sets instead of armor sets.

But that's why I understand the raiders here who don't want their content to be changed in any way. Because we know what Anet sees as a "change" and what you want as easy-mode, can backfire with Anet's idea very quickly if you look at past projects of Anet that they have "reworked".

The content for this "5%" of players could be ruined, which would then drive these people out of the game completely. While for PVE'ler nothing changes.
And that's just it. You have 97% of the game to yourselves. Why compete with 1% of the game, with the raids, only because you feel excluded from one thing, the legy armor? How old is GW2 now? 9 years? You got along 9 years without Legy armor and its advantages. So why this selfishness over one thing?

Not sure how some kind of "easy-mode" would remove/ruin the current raids. It wouldn't change the current raids but it would give Anet an opportunity to create content for a higher % of players, which would then make it feasible to also reuse content that gets played by more and is then sustainable. Anet didn't stop developing raids due to backlash. They simply weren't sustainable with their small population.

That's why they're reinventing raids with strikes. Similiar to how all the other MMORPGs that focus on raiding have their raids in various difficulties, they're now trying the same with strikes in EoD.

Not sure how 97% of the game is for the "yourselves" (who are you including in this "yourselves"? Every non-raider? So PvP, WvW, OW etc. players?). Your percentages don't make any sense, unless you see it as "raiding and everything else". And even then it's sketchy. (I'm not even sure why you incorporated some of your subjective feelings about story in your first paragraph, when this has been about the sustainability of raids).

This isn't about selfishness at all. Anet obviously can't afford to develop more raids in their current state. You're trying to make every non-raider the scapegoat, just like in your first post on the topic, but they aren't at fault for why raids are the way they are and not being developed anymore. You can point your finger in the direction of every non-raider all you want, but that won't bring the unsustainable raids back. How selfish is it to want more content that can't even pay for itself?

 

Scapegoating others, that don't even touch raids, for the decline of raids isn't constructive at all for raids. I'd even say it is one of the reasons why raids are practically discontinued and replaced by strikes. Anet has noticed raids are unapproachable by the average player, that's why they've started with strikes. Strikes are to raids what Fractals are to dungeons. I'm just wondering why it took them this long. Another question is if it would be viable to revive the current raid format with changes (easy mode or something else), or if it is just not worth it at all, just like dungeons. 

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

Yes, in gw2 that is partily the lack of gearprogression.

This is also ironicly the part which makes it really atractive to skilled players as player skill becomes way more profound if you never overlevel content.

The strawman is the last part of the sentence. Wanting difficulty and wanting rewards are not exclusive.

So saying " but i thought you wanted difficulty" is a strawmen.

 

If one actually cares about the health of the gamemode they should be for unique rewards in those gamemodes.

 

Now we can debate about what the appropriate rewards should be, but that is a way more nuanced conversation.

No problem with wanting rewards and difficult content.

It’s wanting the best rewards tied exclusively to the content one enjoys I was commenting on.

Of course raids would get good rewards. But I did, repeatedly, see it argued no one would do the raids if those rewards weren’t exclusively the best in the game.

It’s only a straw man if no one actually made the argument.

I’d go back and find some examples, but I’ve found the the forum archive is really time consuming to search.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Gibson.4036