no one plays raids

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Well the CMs in DRMs are nothing. I can solo a lot of them and I'm not particularly good at the game. Sure it was easy. No new mechancis, just a time limit, slight harder bosses or slight harder mobs to get to the bosses. Most of the DRMs are not really challenging to say raiders, or even casuals like me with a group of casual guildies. Hardly indicating they're supporting hard core content. They did the easiest thing they  could possibly do to supply a CM mode.
 

And yeah, no one complains it's too long between fractals. Tell me when was the last raid, or strike mission. Been a while, huh?

Honestly if you don't see the hard core community complaining that there's not enough hard core content,, you're just not paying attention.

 

Anet throws the hard core community scraps. The fact that you take this as evidence that they're actively supporting hard core play say more about your hopefulness than any sort of objective reality. 

 

Dude, they throw you, at most, two hours of not-worth-repeating outside of achievements story content every 3-4 months.  ANet had this game on the backburner for ages, or do you have a selective memory and blank out why there were a ton of layoffs a while back?  ANet was trying to expand their horizons with new games (which I think is perfectly fine), but it didn't work out and it was at the cost of GW2 content.  Do you  understand that content was cut repeatedly and Living World chapters were knocked back regularly because of ANet's focus on other games, or are you that obtuse?

Also ANet's currently working on an expansion.  When was the last living world release, my dude?  Repeats & reruns don't count.
 

 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

And why exactly cant you raid for 15 mins, stop and come back later?

The raid states are saved for a week so if you do progress you can come back later and finish it before mondays reset.

You not wanting to do it is all that stops you and that is fine.

I wont get the spvp gizmos or titles and I dont cry/moan that they should be put into a format I like more.

Because it takes more than 15 minutes to learn to raid in the first place.  It's a more complex process.  Hell most of the time it takes 15 minutes before we even start.

[Vayne.8563]

17 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Dude, they throw you, at most, two hours of not-worth-repeating outside of achievements story content every 3-4 months.  ANet had this game on the backburner for ages, or do you have a selective memory and blank out why there were a ton of layoffs a while back?  ANet was trying to expand their horizons with new games (which I think is perfectly fine), but it didn't work out and it was at the cost of GW2 content.  Do you  understand that content was cut repeatedly and Living World chapters were knocked back regularly because of ANet's focus on other games, or are you that obtuse?

Also ANet's currently working on an expansion.  When was the last living world release, my dude?  Repeats & reruns don't count.
 

 

Yep, you have a selective memory. They had other projects and most of those layoffs were people who were working on those projects. 

Look, you have one point of view and your information is colored by it. I have another point of view and my information is colored by that. At the end of the day,. everyone is going to decide what to believe.

 

But we know for a fact there aren't enough raiders in the game to keep making more raids. Might that change? Sure...it might.  But there are enough people doing living stories, playing the zones, doing the return to achievements.   You can think that's not what this game is focused on.  

I think we should let each person reading this make up their own minds.

Edit: Everyone that I play with, and it's quite a few people, spend days if not weeks in new zones.  I'm not sure why you think it's 2 hours of content.  And a raid with it's 3 bosses probably takes considerably less work than a zone and story anyway.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Loules.8601]

20 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But we know for a fact there aren't enough raiders in the game to keep making more raids. Might that change? Sure...it might.

I think that main meaning in EoD strikes, and strikes at all - introduce “raids” to masses. 
Like a middle ground - only 1 boss, but with raid mechanics. And if I remember correctly, EoD strikes - not just open-world mechanics, but more like proper bosses.

 

[Linken.6345]

45 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Because it takes more than 15 minutes to learn to raid in the first place.  It's a more complex process.  Hell most of the time it takes 15 minutes before we even start.

 Well then rest while your squad is forming train for 15min and quit rinse and repeat untill you nailed it.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

 Well then rest while your squad is forming train for 15min and quit rinse and repeat untill you nailed it.

Must be good to be young.  I don't learn that fast anymore. It'll take me a fairly long time to get through raids. Source: I've done some raiding.  It'll take me ages.  Longer than just doing PvP and less fun for me, so I'll PVP. Doesn't change any of the rest of what I've said.

It's not a crime to not like raids. If it was, most of the playerbase would have been incarcerated by now. lol

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Loules.8601 said:

I think that main meaning in EoD strikes, and strikes at all - introduce “raids” to masses. 
Like a middle ground - only 1 boss, but with raid mechanics. And if I remember correctly, EoD strikes - not just open-world mechanics, but more like proper bosses.

 

The jury is still out. We'll have to wait and see.

[yann.1946]

9 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Guys like you will never get it. You'd get it if you were the one who didn't like those formats, which btw is probably a healthy percentage of the game. I want to PvE because I find PvE most fun. I bought a game without raids. Now, if I want to do what I did for the first 3.5 years (and I participated in ALL PVE content for the first 3.5 years..dungons, fractals, open world, meta events world bosses), I can't get a reward, when originally I could get all the rewards.

 

Im only going to respond to to this part because i think it is the most important one.

While you are right, it is no way to run a succesful mmo with this mindset, things like the griffon, skyscale shouldnt exist with this mindset.

 

9 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Every time something is locked away from you in a game behind something you dont' enjoy the game becomes less your game. It's a very very simple concept that you seem to be ignoring. It's not just me. So many casuals walked away from this game when HoT launched not because they couldn't do HoT or chose not to do HoT, but because they felt the game was no longer their game. It's an emotional response and like it or not, people play things and watch things for emotional responses, at least an overwhelming majority do.

The reality is that for most things their will be people who dislike that thing. Its always about a balancing act, and that does not mean all content/rewards should be made for the majority. 

9 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 

The more annoyance you have at  a game the more strings that bind you to that game are broken. Every change that makes the game less yours is another reason to play another game full time or make another game your main game. HoT gave that reason to casuals and casuals responded. Anet must have noticed because they not only nerfed HOT but made their next expansions a sort of anti-HoT.  Fewer important metas on timers, with worse rewards. More stuff like bounties which are content on demand. More exploration without the verticality.  Virtually every decision made in PoF was a way to show the casuals that we're still a game you can play, because casuals, at least a large number of them were hurt by HoT. It's not cause HoT was bad. It was because this content wasn't something that casuals could play.

Now legendary weapons have been in the game since launch and most casuals can still get them, without doing something that's harder core content than raiding. They even changed dungeon tokens so you no longer have to do dungeons. There are aways to avoid it and still get a legendary weapon.  But legendary armor, nope, we need to lock that behind less played, less accessible areas of the game for reasons.

 

But I've yet to hear one single reason that justifies locking them away from the biggest portion of the playerbase. Let's protect the few raiders that play this game because that makes some kind of sense, no matter who you disenfranchise. Like it or not, casuals want things they don't need and sometimes can't have and the more of that stuff you put out of their reach the less they feel this game is for them and whether you personally care or not...that's an issue for the game.

 

[yann.1946]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Well the CMs in DRMs are nothing. I can solo a lot of them and I'm not particularly good at the game. Sure it was easy. No new mechancis, just a time limit, slight harder bosses or slight harder mobs to get to the bosses. Most of the DRMs are not really challenging to say raiders, or even casuals like me with a group of casual guildies. Hardly indicating they're supporting hard core content. They did the easiest thing they  could possibly do to supply a CM mode.

And yeah, no one complains it's too long between fractals. Tell me when was the last raid, or strike mission. Been a while, huh?

Honestly if you don't see the hard core community complaining that there's not enough hard core content,, you're just not paying attention.

 

Anet throws the hard core community scraps. The fact that you take this as evidence that they're actively supporting hard core play say more about your hopefulness than any sort of objective reality. 

You really should try to stop your personal bias cloud your judgement.

The last strike got released on may 26,2020 after that on september 15,2020 a fractal with cm got released. slighlty before the  first champions patch from the icebrood sage. And tbh i think most people would agree that that champions was the moment everyone started getting scraps. 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Because it takes more than 15 minutes to learn to raid in the first place.  It's a more complex process.  Hell most of the time it takes 15 minutes before we even start.

Things that take more than 15 minute to learn in this game (this is by no means an exhaustive list):

1. Your profession traitlines and skills
2. A rotation that does okay damage per second (10k-15k dps) or a build that gives decent support (Boons, buffs, and/or healing/damage mitigation)
3. Understanding what does damage to the blue bars.
4. Figuring out combo fields and what they do between each finisher.
5. The layout of the world (Map completion)
6. Meta trains and when they happen
7. Using Alt+click+drag to split a stack
8. Using CTRL or Shift to put items into chat directly or as part o f a message respectively
9. Learning how to use the /wiki command and how the above ties into it
10. Learning basic boss and enemy attack patterns in the open world.
11. Doing any dungeon path for the first time with a group of first timers
12. Learning fractals of the mists and ascending through the tiers
13. Figuring out crafting disciplines and how to level them

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

You really should try to stop your personal bias cloud your judgement.

The last strike got released on may 26,2020 after that on september 15,2020 a fractal with cm got released. slighlty before the  first champions patch from the icebrood sage. And tbh i think most people would agree that that champions was the moment everyone started getting scraps. 

A better question then. What's the average length of time between fractals.  What's the average length of time between Raids. What's the average length of time between living story chapters.  Let's forget about when Champions came out and they were working on an expansion but prior to that all along.

Let's go further than.  How long do you think it takes to make a single fractal compared to an entire zone, with story.

Don't let your bias prejudice you.  Anet puts more programming time and budget into programming the living world (zones, stories, achievements) than it does anything else by a country mile.

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Things that take more than 15 minute to learn in this game (this is by no means an exhaustive list):

1. Your profession traitlines and skills
2. A rotation that does okay damage per second (10k-15k dps) or a build that gives decent support (Boons, buffs, and/or healing/damage mitigation)
3. Understanding what does damage to the blue bars.
4. Figuring out combo fields and what they do between each finisher.
5. The layout of the world (Map completion)
6. Meta trains and when they happen
7. Using Alt+click+drag to split a stack
8. Using CTRL or Shift to put items into chat directly or as part o f a message respectively
9. Learning how to use the /wiki command and how the above ties into it
10. Learning basic boss and enemy attack patterns in the open world.
11. Doing any dungeon path for the first time with a group of first timers
12. Learning fractals of the mists and ascending through the tiers
13. Figuring out crafting disciplines and how to level them

But I can do map completion incidentally and mostly I do. I do a few events here and there, counts to some hearts. I get points of interest as I'm passing. You don't have to actively work on world complete to get world complete.  But you can't say that about a raid.  

I never run a meta train, ever. I do a meta when I feel like doing a meta. I don't plan it and turn up. I don't wait for 9 people that have the right builds. I show up and play at the appropriate time. 

 

I can do a dungeon path without looking for specific builds, without a healer or tank. They were designed with that in mind. The fact that it takes longer is irrelevant to me, because the pre-work I have to do was a lot less.  The point again, is that to get any legendary weapon I originally, in the old days, had to do  9 dungeon runs.  Today I only have to do 5.  How many raids do I have to do to get legendary armor, even just one piece?

[Fuchslein.8639]

Just say it, you don't want to put much effort in anything.

And the good thing is, you don't have to put any effort into it. Just don't do it. So simple :D.

I mean, what does someone like you want with the Legendary from the raids? According to what you write you are not the type who has the time to try out new builds (because testing builds costs more than 15min, if you already don't understand raids in 15min, no offense, just facts you stated yourself). And raids are just no fun for you. That's okay. So what's the problem?

 

The time to lead page-long discussions only to say that you have no time ....  :D.

[yann.1946]

50 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

A better question then. What's the average length of time between fractals.  What's the average length of time between Raids. What's the average length of time between living story chapters.  Let's forget about when Champions came out and they were working on an expansion but prior to that all along.

Let's go further than.  How long do you think it takes to make a single fractal compared to an entire zone, with story.

Don't let your bias prejudice you.  Anet puts more programming time and budget into programming the living world (zones, stories, achievements) than it does anything else by a country mile.

Vayne , are you really forgetting what the conversation is about? Or do you think I'm an idiot? 

 

Obviously they spend more time developing maps, nobody is claiming otherwise or suggesting that they shouldn't. I have now clue why you thought anyone gmhas

 

The point was about giving scraps and both the actions and intentions in regard to the instanced pve gamemodes. 

You made the claim that they where basically abondend and only got the bare minimum of attention. 

 

My point is that while their was an obvious decrease in content for the more hardcore pve players they have purposely increased attention to these modes (strikes being an attempt to bridge a gap between raids and story and a new fractal with a cm) and the lack of anything difficult in the last year is a consequence of the shoving parts of the active game part to the expac part. 

 

The last year everyone had to do with scraps so it's a really bad metric for what the studio cared about. (otherwise I could claim they only cared about repeatable content :p)

 

Plus we know that in eod they are including content specificly for players interested in that part of the game. Strike cms for example. 

[Crono.4197]

Well, raids were a mistake from the beginning. Adding hardcore content in a game made for casual players, what could go wrong?

I remember how frustrated I was when they announced they were adding raids in HoT, because I thought this game might go in the same direction as the other MMOs, where raids will basically lock players out of content and gear because of elitism. Did it happen? Yes, not but as bad as in other MMOs.

In Guild Wars 2 you can do 95% of the content with Exotics and with Ascended having the same stats as Legendaries, you are not locked out of anything if you don't do them. This is the good part, thank God for horizontal progression.

Now the bad part is that the typical raid MMO-ing behaviour is still there. "Have X amount of whatever points", "Do X amount of DPS", "Be an expert in the raid" "Super fast steroids run, if you die once or the DPS is low you get kicked".

I always hated this type of behaviour and because of this, even when I had the best gear in vertical progression MMOs, I never did raids or dungeons with such people.

That's why it would be nice if there would at least be an easy mode for people to try it out, not for the rewards themselves. It could grant some basic achievements and maybe a few basic rewards like Unidentified Gear, and that's it. Because pretty sure the raiding community won't do a 180 degree change and will suddenly welcome everyone to raids, so at least we should have something like this, for those that are not welcome in raids.

[Fuchslein.8639]

16 minutes ago, Crono.4197 said:

Well, raids were a mistake from the beginning. Adding hardcore content in a game made for casual players, what could go wrong?

I remember how frustrated I was when they announced they were adding raids in HoT, because I thought this game might go in the same direction as the other MMOs, where raids will basically lock players out of content and gear because of elitism. Did it happen? Yes, not but as bad as in other MMOs.

In Guild Wars 2 you can do 95% of the content with Exotics and with Ascended having the same stats as Legendaries, you are not locked out of anything if you don't do them. This is the good part, thank God for horizontal progression.

Now the bad part is that the typical raid MMO-ing behaviour is still there. "Have X amount of whatever points", "Do X amount of DPS", "Be an expert in the raid" "Super fast steroids run, if you die once or the DPS is low you get kicked".

I always hated this type of behaviour and because of this, even when I had the best gear in vertical progression MMOs, I never did raids or dungeons with such people.

That's why it would be nice if there would at least be an easy mode for people to try it out, not for the rewards themselves. It could grant some basic achievements and maybe a few basic rewards like Unidentified Gear, and that's it. Because pretty sure the raiding community won't do a 180 degree change and will suddenly welcome everyone to raids, so at least we should have something like this, for those that are not welcome in raids.

 

This behavior was there bevor raids, in dungeons and even pve and would be in GW2 even whitout Raids or any "hardcore-content". And strikes are the easy mode of Raids with rather good rewards.

By the way, I've experienced more toxisity in PVE than in raids in my whole Gw2 time. In the last few months alone, one person became super toxic in raids, but in PVE in meta-events or just map-chat I've seen super often how people or whole groups were put down when something didn't go the way a sad soul wanted it to.

[yann.1946]

30 minutes ago, Crono.4197 said:

Now the bad part is that the typical raid MMO-ing behaviour is still there. "Have X amount of whatever points", "Do X amount of DPS", "Be an expert in the raid" "Super fast steroids run, if you die once or the DPS is low you get kicked".

This is not raid exclusive though. It happens in literaly all parts of the game from the moment people group up and it becomes slightly more difficult. People would kick people from metaevents if they could. 

 

And its not that their are no other ways to do raids. I understand where your view comes from but it does not match reality at all.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:52 AM, Neosayayin.3498 said:

the problem is that the real endgame and have the real hard endgame  is not accessible to anyone, yo can try but if someone don't likes  you they can kick you, I have the gear and I have the experience but because of the way raids are implemented at the middle of a raid if some one dont like you they can kick you because a  guild mate is onlike, you dont know how many times I have try to do raids and because of the systema I havent finish any of theem.  I want progression I want raids but they need to be implemented in a good, way, not forgot and centralice on strike missions, raids are lost content because of that. they need to be open raids. 

Guild Wars as in GUILD Wars. 

People complain content's hard to get into because they never actually put any effort into getting into it. Do you go in and expect people to carry you without even mentioning you've never done that stuff before so someone can efficiently explain it to you beforehand, AND help you get better?

GUILD Wars is easily played in GUILDS, where you can easily find like-minded people and tutors to help you improve your understanding and mechanics of the game. 

Revolutionary, I know.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

33 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

This is not raid exclusive though. It happens in literaly all parts of the game from the moment people group up and it becomes slightly more difficult. People would kick people from metaevents if they could. 

 

And its not that their are no other ways to do raids. I understand where your view comes from but it does not match reality at all.

It happens, because people have lives and a limited amount of time, and sometimes they don't want to spend an hour doing a strike mission because some pug player never bothered asking writing a single word in the chat.

Btw, these are the same people who say Sekiro is too hard, and then refuse to learn and adapt the explorable ways to play offered by the game itself in order to progress. It's always the others, never themselves.

The environment must adapt to me, not the other way around! How dare you!

Edited September 26, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Crono.4197 said:

Now the bad part is that the typical raid MMO-ing behaviour is still there. "Have X amount of whatever points", "Do X amount of DPS", "Be an expert in the raid" "Super fast steroids run, if you die once or the DPS is low you get kicked".

tbh that sounds like someone trying to comment on raids without ever attempting to learn them.

3 hours ago, Crono.4197 said:

That's why it would be nice if there would at least be an easy mode for people to try it out, not for the rewards themselves. It could grant some basic achievements and maybe a few basic rewards like Unidentified Gear, and that's it. Because pretty sure the raiding community won't do a 180 degree change and will suddenly welcome everyone to raids, so at least we should have something like this, for those that are not welcome in raids.

Pretty sure everyone's welcome as long as they want to learn and improve instead of trying to get carried to rewards. Time to stop pretending anyone's trying to hold you back from riding other than yourself. Plenty of opportunities to join training/no req/low req squads if someone wants to learn the content.

It's like someone trying to pretend that they can't learn raids in 15 minutes, so it's impossible for them to learn at all (even if we pretend they really are playing no longer than 15 minutes at one time). But they can learn in the 15 minute increments. Not only that, but they can read about the encounters or watch related videos to reduce the time needed ingame to learn them. If someone doesn't want to learn the content, it's their choice -they're free to make that choice, but stop pretending it's anything other than that.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[flog.3485]

Nah they shouldn’t try to make the old raid content relevant to most players.

 

Instead, they should try to bring something new and fresh to the game by bringing a new legendary armor earnable through EoD strike missions and their CMs. Here is how to do it imo:

1. your earn a new armor of exotics by playing the normal mode just like the strike missions from the icebrood saga (with a less convoluted system hopefully)

2. you upgrade these armor pieces to ascended and unlock its new upgraded skins trough general open world content and repeatable normal mode achievements.

3. Fast forward three months after the release of EoD, the CMs drop and you upgrade your ascended into legendary status through its achievements and other expensive materials. You won’t be able to have some animated armor skins in which case you would at least have some incentive to go play the raids of HoT. 

[mindcircus.1506]

19 minutes ago, flog.3485 said:

Nah they shouldn’t try to make the old raid content relevant to most players.

 

Instead, they should try to bring something new and fresh to the game by bringing a new legendary armor earnable through EoD strike missions and their CMs. Here is how to do it imo:

 

If you tie legendary armour acquisition to the CM of strikes then you don't alleviate the low-effort forum warrior's concerns at all.

All you have done is changed the name of the content that these people will not do and changed an adjective for their tired arguments.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But I can do map completion incidentally and mostly I do. I do a few events here and there, counts to some hearts. I get points of interest as I'm passing. You don't have to actively work on world complete to get world complete.  But you can't say that about a raid.  

I never run a meta train, ever. I do a meta when I feel like doing a meta. I don't plan it and turn up. I don't wait for 9 people that have the right builds. I show up and play at the appropriate time. 

 

I can do a dungeon path without looking for specific builds, without a healer or tank. They were designed with that in mind. The fact that it takes longer is irrelevant to me, because the pre-work I have to do was a lot less.  The point again, is that to get any legendary weapon I originally, in the old days, had to do  9 dungeon runs.  Today I only have to do 5.  How many raids do I have to do to get legendary armor, even just one piece?

Then, incidentally, you can fail upwards in pvp for legendary armor.  You don't have to learn your class, you don't even have to have chat on (You can turn off everything and go invisible, flood your mailbox  with 50+ mails and just grind for a month in pvp to get  everything).  WvW is even more true, you barely have to do anything but karma train with a map blob to a certain rank then farm tickets.

Also, you have to carefully plan your time for when a meta is going to be available.  They're generally on a 2h timer, some on an 8 hour timer.  If you feel like doing Svanir  shaman but it's not up on the timer, you're just SOL.

Dungeons now are a joke, back then they weren't.  Back then, dungeons required boon stacking in the form of using combo fields and certain class mechanics.  They also encouraged use of  CC to hold the boss still and control the mobs and the damage to kill them.  Hey look, it's that soft trinity GW2 has always had.  Control, Support, and Damage.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Vidit.7108]

I'm not really sure why these topics don't get locked. Anet doesn't seem interested in the discussion or feedback seeing as how they've decided to move on from Raids. The posters here are the exact same people as any topic complaining either about raid difficulty or raid accessibility or even the prospect of legendary armor being obtainable through some other means in PvE.

A lot of the things being said to other players here are kind of rude. They often involve claiming the person who wants it to be easier is bad or lazy or wants to be carried, because of its supposed status as hardcore content it's supposed to be hard. And then turning around and saying "well it's actually easy to learn the mechanics if you just try". All you need is basic understanding to be welcomed, and also, before being welcomed, learn a rotation to hit high dps, also a guild can't forget this is group content, and this is all a normal part of playing this game as if by playing other content you would already know. The discussion just isn't very constructive, the person who is talking about struggling is being chastised for having problems. And the people who want raids to stay the way they are seem to take all of this discussion fairly personally.

I agree with what @Crono.4197 has said. Also you don't generally see people complaining about a barrier to entry into fractal content or not being able to experience the really neat storytelling in some of them. Because the game provides a gameplay mode for learning with reduced rewards. I don't see LFG flooded with "Selling T4 Dailies" instead of actual groups because a healthy number of experienced and newish players reside in the T4 LFG together.

[HotDelirium.7984]

While it might be next to impossible to get storymode raid versions (season 1 instances and marionette came back so you never know) it sounds like from the information we got so far that Strike Missions will now sort of morph into and officially become the new raids. The challenge mode of the Strike Missions will then be on par with the difficulty of a regular raid boss. Its a win win for everyone since it encapsulates the "raiding" into the actual story, instances and increases accessibility.