Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 18 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said: I'm very grateful for the chest at the bottom, and I think the candy corn cost is a great compromise. To illuminate the subject that has been debated in this thread, I will never be able to get the Mad King's Clock Tower achievement. I am perfectly okay with this. I can get the meta achievement and the new courtly achievements have been updated to make it accessible. However, the Mad King's Clock Tower achievement does not have to be attainable to everyone. Only those who can finish the clock tower. I'm not one of those and, again, that's perfectly okay. There are many other achievements I'll never be able to get in GW2 and that's okay with me. That I can even play this game is enough for me. I really don't care about achievements as they have no bearing on my gameplay. Even then, ArenaNet is able to find solutions to make as much of the game accessible, as evidenced by the clock tower updates. Wait, did you have a problem with this achievement being inaccessible (Despite the first chest being about 8 jumps away), but didn't have a problem with the completion achievement being inaccessible? Am I reading this right? 1 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynder.2509 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 (edited) I know it might be offtopic but I heard that in one of the recent patches a new chest was added to farm the achievement. Anyone could perhaps post a picture showing where it is exactly? I've seen a video of it and I jumped past the first chest multiple times as it seems and got no credit due to no interact button. Sadly Dulfy site is down and not updated for a long time and I won't give any views or money to that annoying Ayin Maiden girl who just jumped onto a train to earn EZ money with what people like Dulfy have been doing for years. I checked the wiki as well for the first chest but I couldn't activate it in the 100 tries I did that tower by now this year. However as mentioned before the aptch notes mention a new chest so does anyone know which one that is? Note: I have DX11 beta enabled because I get 200 to 300 fps instead of 40 to 60 fps with it but it fcks up kitten like spawning the clocktower debris to jump on properly. Edited October 11, 2021 by Cynder.2509 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythical.6315 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 16 minutes ago, Cynder.2509 said: I know it might be offtopic but I heard that in one of the recent patches a new chest was added to farm the achievement. Anyone could perhaps post a picture showing where it is exactly? I've seen a video of it and I jumped past the first chest multiple times as it seems and got no credit due to no interact button. Sadly Dulfy site is down and not updated for a long time and I won't give any views or money to that annoying Ayin Maiden girl who just jumped onto a train to earn EZ money with what people like Dulfy have been doing for years. I checked the wiki as well for the first chest but I couldn't activate it in the 100 tries I did that tower by now this year. However as mentioned before the aptch notes mention a new chest so does anyone know which one that is? Note: I have DX11 beta enabled because I get 200 to 300 fps instead of 40 to 60 fps with it but it fcks up kitten like spawning the clocktower debris to jump on properly. Join any clock tower instance and immediately look to your right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 (edited) @Sir Alymer.3406 Nah. Notice, how you preferring one kind of difficulty over another is also nothing more than your personal take on this. Difficulty is a highly subjective subject, and as long as you compare difficulty based on completely different factors, you can't objectively say one is more important than the other. For some players one approach will be easier, for some it will be the other. Besides, do you really think that without that time pressure Clocktower would be difficult? How do you think completion rates for this puzzle would change if there was no time factor, and you could take your time with every single jump out there? Because, as i see it, that would turn one of the most difficult JPs in GW2 into one of the easiest ones. And as for "optional". Yeah, you don't have to do anything in this game, because every single thing in there is optional. The whole game is. So what? It's an argument of the same exact weight as "if you don't like it, find a different game". It's neither constructive nor helpful, it's something that can be used in the case of every single problem in this game, and all it shows is that the person using it doesn't give a flying kitten about that specific issue. Players can and should give opinion about how "optional" different parts of the game should be. And those opinions often will be in conflict with opinions of other players. So, if anyone wants to engage in such an argument, i really hope they will be capable of arguments way better than this kind of mindless dismissal. Edited October 11, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 1 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said: @Sir Alymer.3406 And as for "optional". Yeah, you don't have to do anything in this game, because every single thing in there is optional. The whole game is. So what? It's an argument of the same exact weight as "if you don't like it, find a different game". It's neither constructive nor helpful, it's something that can be used in the case of every single problem in this game, and all it shows is that the person using it doesn't give a flying kitten about that specific issue. Players can and should give opinion about how "optional" different parts of the game should be. And those opinions often will be in conflict with opinions of other players. So, if anyone wants to engage in such an argument, i really hope they will be capable of arguments way better than this kind of mindless dismissal. You're purposefully misquoting what I'm saying. Achievements are the optional content. They're the spice to the meat and potatoes that is the story, map, and instanced content for PvE. They're guides on what the player may be interested in. They are, in no way, required to experience the event. To put it in a way you'll (hopefully) understand, look at the WvW & PvP achievements currently. You, in no way, have to have those achievements to enjoy WvW or PvP. Just like how you don't need aurora and vision to enjoy the living world season 3 and 4 respectively. Edited October 11, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: You're purposefully misquoting what I'm saying. Achievements are the optional content. They're the spice to the meat and potatoes that is the story, map, and instanced content for PvE. They're guides on what the player may be interested in. They are, in no way, required to experience the event. To put it in a way you'll (hopefully) understand, look at the WvW & PvP achievements currently. You, in no way, have to have those achievements to enjoy WvW or PvP. Just like how you don't need aurora and vision to enjoy the living world season 3 and 4 respectively. No, you are the one missing the point. The "you don't need X for Y" argument is nothing more than a plain dismissal of the arguments of the other side without trying to even address them. It can be used to dismiss basically anything - and that is exactly why it is such a bad argument itself. Saying "you don't need X" completely sidesteps any discussion about the merits of changes proposed to X, or raised complains about X. Using it is basically an admission that you don't have any better argument against those change suggestions or complaints. It's telling the player to forget about improving the game and just ignore any problematic parts they might find. I don't consider this to be a healthy approach. 3 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyssia.4637 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 9 hours ago, Cynder.2509 said: I know it might be offtopic but I heard that in one of the recent patches a new chest was added to farm the achievement. Anyone could perhaps post a picture showing where it is exactly? I've seen a video of it and I jumped past the first chest multiple times as it seems and got no credit due to no interact button. Sadly Dulfy site is down and not updated for a long time and I won't give any views or money to that annoying Ayin Maiden girl who just jumped onto a train to earn EZ money with what people like Dulfy have been doing for years. I checked the wiki as well for the first chest but I couldn't activate it in the 100 tries I did that tower by now this year. However as mentioned before the aptch notes mention a new chest so does anyone know which one that is? Note: I have DX11 beta enabled because I get 200 to 300 fps instead of 40 to 60 fps with it but it fcks up kitten like spawning the clocktower debris to jump on properly. The chest from the patch isn't even in the actual jumping part of the puzzle; it's the angry chest in the waiting area. You have to have candy corn in your inventory (ten at least, though he'll take it in 50 increments as well) to activate the option. Each piece of candy corn is a point for the Court Duty achivement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue.8235 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 17 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: Wait, did you have a problem with this achievement being inaccessible (Despite the first chest being about 8 jumps away), but didn't have a problem with the completion achievement being inaccessible? Am I reading this right? I have no problem with the completion achievement being unobtainable because it isn't needed for any meta achievement. The chest that is 8 jumps away is hard to get to for me, being blind and all. The chest that is right there on the lobby floor is good for me, because it allows me to progress something concerning the clock tower that is required for a meta achievement. Yes, you can say the meta achievement is optional, but then you'd be missing the overarching point of accessibility in video games. That you attempted to point out what you thought to be a contradiction tells me that you either didn't read the rest of the post or you didn't take a moment to think about what it's like to not see. 2 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 21 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: Other players are just glowing orbs making it really easy to see around them. Unless they are sporting all their legendary trinkets, in which case people new to this JP might get highly irritated, because they do block the view or at least distract from the Clocktower elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: No, you are the one missing the point. The "you don't need X for Y" argument is nothing more than a plain dismissal of the arguments of the other side without trying to even address them. It can be used to dismiss basically anything - and that is exactly why it is such a bad argument itself. It's really not. I've already addressed them, you're just purposefully ignoring those points I made to continually argue about "But you said it's optional." Quote Saying "you don't need X" completely sidesteps any discussion about the merits of changes proposed to X, or raised complains about X. Using it is basically an admission that you don't have any better argument against those change suggestions or complaints. It's telling the player to forget about improving the game and just ignore any problematic parts they might find. I don't consider this to be a healthy approach. You don't need legendary gear to complete any content in the game. In fact, you don't really need ascended gear to participate in all content in this game. You don't need Aurora, Vision, or even this upcoming legendary amulet to enjoy the living world seasons. You don't need to farm achievements in WvW to enjoy WvW. You don't need the achievements (Map specific or otherwise) in PvP to enjoy PvP. You don't need the dungeon achievements to enjoy dungeons. You don't need the fractal titles, potions, or titles to enjoy fractals. Likewise, this Halloween meta achievement is side content to the releases already present. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: It's really not. I've already addressed them, you're just purposefully ignoring those points I made to continually argue about "But you said it's optional." I'm not ignoring them, i'm disagreeing with them. And i have already explained why. Quote You don't need legendary gear to complete any content in the game. In fact, you don't really need ascended gear to participate in all content in this game. You don't need Aurora, Vision, or even this upcoming legendary amulet to enjoy the living world seasons. You don't need to farm achievements in WvW to enjoy WvW. You don't need the achievements (Map specific or otherwise) in PvP to enjoy PvP. You don't need the dungeon achievements to enjoy dungeons. You don't need the fractal titles, potions, or titles to enjoy fractals. Likewise, this Halloween meta achievement is side content to the releases already present. That's a long list of "don't needs". For simplicity let's ignore the fact that a lot of those can, in fact, decrease enjoyment of those parts of the game. Let's just concentrate on the core of the issue i'm trying to get across to you. Answer me a simple question: Do you think that someone not needing to play a specific type of "side" content automatically means that there can be no problems with said content, or its accessibility? Because that's what your argument is all about - "don't complain about this type of content, because you don't need to play it". It's not an argument about validity of the issues raised. It is an argument about the right of the forum posters to participate in the discussion. Edited October 11, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 2 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue.8235 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 56 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Answer me a simple question: Do you think that someone not needing to play a specific type of "side" content automatically means that there can be no problems with said content, or its accessibility? Because that's what your argument is all about - "don't complain about this type of content, because you don't need to play it". Emphasizing this. Meta achievements are like participation badges. You were there to participate in X on Y year. The accessibility issues being raised are one of participating in in-game content. If the argument is that it's optional content, thus it does not need to be accessible, then I'm just not really sure how to respond to that. Content in the game is the game. What do people consider the game to be if not the content that is the game? If your stance is that it is okay if XX percent of the game is undoable for people, again I'm not sure how to respond to that. I would think a developer would want everyone to play and enjoy their game. My personal stance is that participation achievements should be accessible to everyone. Essentially, everyone should be able to participate in the game. The "actual" achievements, e.g. Demon of a Drifter, is not accessible to everyone, but only those skilled enough to achieve it. This is different from participation. You can participate in beetle races and have fun with it, but not everyone will be able to master the beetle race to the level required by Demon of a Drifter. This is a matter of skill, not participation. Participation should be accessible to all. If you want to argue that in-game content is optional, then clarify how much of the game is okay to be blocked off before it becomes unacceptable. Is it 50 percent? 80? How much of the game is unnecessary to play the game? What parts of gameplay are not gameplay since it's only optional and not real gameplay? These are nonsensical questions because the premise itself is nonsensical. Therefore, the use of the argument "it's optional content" to rebut the argument of accessibility is fallacious and disingenuous. 2 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said: I'm not ignoring them, i'm disagreeing with them. And i have already explained why. No until I pointed that out, you weren't even attempting to address the points. Quote That's a long list of "don't needs". For simplicity let's ignore the fact that a lot of those can, in fact, decrease enjoyment of those parts of the game. Let's just concentrate on the core of the issue i'm trying to get across to you. Answer me a simple question: Do you think that someone not needing to play a specific type of "side" content automatically means that there can be no problems with said content, or its accessibility? Because that's what your argument is all about - "don't complain about this type of content, because you don't need to play it". It's not an argument about validity of the issues raised. It is an argument about the right of the forum posters to participate in the discussion. I'll address the bolded. I see where you confusion is now with the summation of my argument being "don't complain about this type of content, because you don't need to play it". My argument is that the meta achievement is optional. It's side content to the overall festival and you, the player, don't need to complete it to enjoy doing the festival. You can complain about it, but, really, it shouldn't change without having a significant cost for what would equate to skipping content. And before you get all twisted in a knot over a perceived slight towards disabled folks, this is a game, not real life. You're supposed to play for fun and the game is supposed to issue challenges within a ruleset to give you something interesting to do. Imagine your daily routine ingame for a moment. The content you play. Now imagine all the rewards you get from that content just being given to you for logging on 7 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said: I have no problem with the completion achievement being unobtainable because it isn't needed for any meta achievement. -- That you attempted to point out what you thought to be a contradiction tells me that you either didn't read the rest of the post or you didn't take a moment to think about what it's like to not see. Then this must mean you have a problem with literally every other achievement that has a requirement for sight. I mean, it's still a contradiction. Where's the outrage over accessibility for other meta achievements that are both solo only and having use of your eyes for sight would make easy? The outrage about Liadri the Concealing Dark, the talk accessibility for King Turai? I only ask this because you specifically said the following: Quote There are many other achievements I'll never be able to get in GW2 and that's okay with me. So what makes this achievement any different than any other meta achievement you wouldn't be able to get? Quote The chest that is 8 jumps away is hard to get to for me, being blind and all. I went back and counted because it was bothering me. It's 14 jumps at the most and they all have really generous places to land. You could literally have a friend coach you in whatever VOIP service you like using or even IRL. Quote The chest that is right there on the lobby floor is good for me, because it allows me to progress something concerning the clock tower that is required for a meta achievement. Yes, you can say the meta achievement is optional, but then you'd be missing the overarching point of accessibility in video games. Alright, I'll bite. How do you plan on completing the time trials and races? I don't believe the achievement gives progress f or merely afking the whole race and you actually have to cross the finish line be it time trial or race. 3 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said: Emphasizing this. Meta achievements are like participation badges. You were there to participate in X on Y year. The accessibility issues being raised are one of participating in in-game content. If the argument is that it's optional content, thus it does not need to be accessible, then I'm just not really sure how to respond to that. Content in the game is the game. What do people consider the game to be if not the content that is the game? If your stance is that it is okay if XX percent of the game is undoable for people, again I'm not sure how to respond to that. I would think a developer would want everyone to play and enjoy their game. My personal stance is that participation achievements should be accessible to everyone. Essentially, everyone should be able to participate in the game. The "actual" achievements, e.g. Demon of a Drifter, is not accessible to everyone, but only those skilled enough to achieve it. This is different from participation. You can participate in beetle races and have fun with it, but not everyone will be able to master the beetle race to the level required by Demon of a Drifter. This is a matter of skill, not participation. Participation should be accessible to all. If you want to argue that in-game content is optional, then clarify how much of the game is okay to be blocked off before it becomes unacceptable. Is it 50 percent? 80? How much of the game is unnecessary to play the game? What parts of gameplay are not gameplay since it's only optional and not real gameplay? These are nonsensical questions because the premise itself is nonsensical. Therefore, the use of the argument "it's optional content" to rebut the argument of accessibility is fallacious and disingenuous. Negatory. The participation badge for the overall achievements was moved to the Rituals. New, permanent achievements for festivals are rare. Edited October 12, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue.8235 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: Then this must mean you have a problem with literally every other achievement that has a requirement for sight. I mean, it's still a contradiction. Where's the outrage over accessibility for other meta achievements that are both solo only and having use of your eyes for sight would make easy? The outrage about Liadri the Concealing Dark, the talk accessibility for King Turai? I only ask this because you specifically said the following: Most of the content in game is playable blind. I take no issue with not being able to obtain skill-based achievements. Some meta achievements contain skill-based achievements. I don't have all meta achievements done and I'll need to go back and double check this, but I believe every meta achievement has wiggle room to not require skill based achievements. As long as you just play the content you'll get the meta (hence participation). 20 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: So what makes this achievement any different than any other meta achievement you wouldn't be able to get? So I explained why skill-based achievements aren't a problem. Not getting these achievements does not necessarily mean I can't play the content. It does mean that I don't play the content well enough to get the achievement. This is very different from not being able to play the content at all. 20 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: I went back and counted because it was bothering me. It's 14 jumps at the most and they all have really generous places to land. You could literally have a friend coach you in whatever VOIP service you like using or even IRL. This is not how complete blindness works. I cannot make these jumps because there is no usable information for me to go off of to identify where the jumps are. Other jump puzzles have audio and the ability for me to use skills to echolocate places. And the time to do this. Clock tower has nothing for me to go off of. It is purely visual. 20 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: Alright, I'll bite. How do you plan on completing the time trials and races? I don't believe the achievement gives progress f or merely afking the whole race and you actually have to cross the finish line be it time trial or race. So you didn't notice that the waypoints make a sound? You don't notice the sound cues of pumpkins? There are lots of sound indicators in these races, which is what I told Arena net 2 years ago. and since then many races have the audio-enabled waypoints. Every festival now has them. 20 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: Negatory. The participation badge for the overall achievements was moved to the Rituals. New, permanent achievements for festivals are rare. (emphasis added). The emphasized part is irrelevant. What does that have to do with the accessibility of in-game content? Are you saying that because new festival achievements are rare, they should not be accessible to everyone? Edited October 12, 2021 by Rogue.8235 1 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said: No until I pointed that out, you weren't even attempting to address the points. I did address your "points". I just did it in a more general way, and did not think i needed to address specifics as well, seeing as they were already covered by what i was explaining earlier. Quote I'll address the bolded. I see where you confusion is now with the summation of my argument being "don't complain about this type of content, because you don't need to play it". My argument is that the meta achievement is optional. No. Your argument was that since it is optional, noone has the right to complain about its accessibility. You were not arguing about why you think that this specific metaachievement needs to exclude a majority of players (because Clocktower accessibility issue goes well beyond it being hard for blind players). You were using an argument that since something is optional we need not talk about accessibility at all. Quote It's side content to the overall festival and you, the player, don't need to complete it to enjoy doing the festival. Again, me not needing it to "enjoy the festival" has no relevance to the topic of whether the accessibility itself is tuned right. I do not need to play any specific part of the game. Neither do you, or anyone else. In fact, that meta achievement does not need to exist at all. But it does. And since it does, we can (and should) talk about whether devs got its accessibility right. Regardless of how "optional" it is. All the "optional" argument is trying to accomplish is to shut that discussion down, nothing more. (also, you really, really should stop telling everyone what they need and not need to have fun in this game. Because there are definitely players for whom the very parts you claim they don't need to have fun are part of the fun). Quote You can complain about it, but, really, it shouldn't change without having a significant cost for what would equate to skipping content. And now we're having a serious discussion about that specific issue. Thank you, finally. Quote And before you get all twisted in a knot over a perceived slight towards disabled folks, this is a game, not real life. You're supposed to play for fun and the game is supposed to issue challenges within a ruleset to give you something interesting to do. Imagine your daily routine ingame for a moment. The content you play. Now imagine all the rewards you get from that content just being given to you for logging on Sure, but we're not talking in binary cases. There does need to be some accessibility barrier, that is unavoidable. We're just discussing about how high to put it in this specific case.. My personal view on this is that a fun, story side content like this should not have that bar be placed very high. You apparently disagreed. And it seems that in this case devs happened to agree with me and other players sharing my view, because they did add that chest at the bottom. But you tried to skip that whole discussion by using "it's optional" argument. Now can you see why i took issue with it? Edited October 12, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 3 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epsilon Indi.2031 Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 11 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: But you tried to skip that whole discussion by using "it's optional" argument. Now can you see why i took issue with it? No, I even explained why I said it was optional after you asked, you're just doubling down on your own interpretation of what I said for the sake of argument. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embered.5089 Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Even the OP is satisfied now... why are you guys still arguing? 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HitmanHaydon.1053 Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) On 10/6/2021 at 9:55 PM, mythical.6315 said: It’s still not mandatory. There are 10 achievements and you only need 9. I don't know who you are, but I love you. I hate JPs so much Edited October 28, 2021 by HitmanHaydon.1053 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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