Why no toolbelt on Mechanist?

[santenal.1054]

1 hour ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

The utility.  It still has utility alongside what the engineers have remaining.  Yeah toolbelt skills are powerful,  but so is the mech. Its a trade off.

You get 9 AI skills (most highly telegraphed/bad) and 3 skill slots (27 combinations) at the loss of 24 toolbelt skill (many verry good). That's a horrible trade off (even considering the toolbelt skills are linked to the Heal/Utility/Elite skills). You also lose the mech utilities for a long duration when the mech dies, leaving you with only 10 skills for ??? seconds (currently it's set on 100 seconds but they will change it in the future probably).

 

1 hour ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Skills that rely on the toolbelt to be effective in the first place isn't ideal which is why Healing Kit went through many iterations. You just have to learn to use it differently 

Med kit was considered bad because the skills were bad/slow/clunky.... the existance of the toolbelt skill was not the issue (or whatever you are trying to say with your gibberish).

 

The mechanist is walking fodder (without the toolbelt skills or unsummoned/killed mech) and the mech will be nerfed if it is strong. Strong AI always gets the nerfhammer.

Edited October 23, 2021 by santenal.1054

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Toolbelt holds 27 different skills you can put on your bar. Many of them hold important functionalities like: stunbreak, heals (med kit becomes absolutely unusable with mechanist), many VERY hard hitting skills like grenade barrage, boon emoval, condi cleanse, etc.

The removal of toolbelt is the hardest trade off we have ever seen on any class. The removal of a dodge for mirage is laughable against this, I would take this any day over the removal of toolbelt.

We need to be DEAD accurate about this if Anet will take this complaint seriously. It's the same un-true comments people are saying about clones for Virtuoso. 

The toolbelt was not REMOVED.

The regular 5 skill toolbelt is REPLACED by customizable 3 skill "Jade Golem toolbelt". We lost 2 toolbelt skills and the specific belt abilities associated with skillbar to get access to the Mech and it's 3 toolbar spaces that are controlled by the Traits. 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lynx.9058]

because they'd have to come up with toolbelt variants on the new signet skills, and that's too much work =P

[Alec B.8905]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The regular 5 skill toolbelt is replaced by customizable 3 skill "Jade Golem toolbelt". We lost 2 toolbelt skills and the specific belt abilities associated with skillbar to get access to the Mech and it's 3 toolbar spaces that are controlled by the Traits

it is literally removed when golem isn't activated

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Alec B.8905 said:

it is literally removed when golem isn't activated

That's a fair point and I acknowledge that's a rather dissatisfying. Similar effects occur on Berserker when in non-berseker mode. 

BUT ... I think that the 'fix' for that is already in. Anet's fix for berserker was to allow players to extend uptime. Seems to me Anet's 'fix' here is the Active Elite Signet. I believe if well played, you shouldn't really be without the Golem too often for too long. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[lorddarkflare.9186]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's a fair point and I acknowledge that's a rather dissatisfying. Similar effects occur on Berserker when in non-berseker mode. 

BUT ... I think that the 'fix' for that is already in. Anet's fix for berserker was to allow players to extend uptime. Seems to me Anet's 'fix' here is the Active Elite Signet. I believe if well played, you shouldn't really be without the Golem too often for too long. 

 

I think the best way to sweeten the pot is to make the Aerial Bombardment ability baseline.

Maybe bring the cooldown of the elite down to 60, but incur an additional 30 second recharge if you use it to rez the mech.

Edited October 23, 2021 by lorddarkflare.9186

[crewthief.8649]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Toolbelt holds 27 different skills you can put on your bar. Many of them hold important functionalities like: stunbreak, heals (med kit becomes absolutely unusable with mechanist), many VERY hard hitting skills like grenade barrage, boon emoval, condi cleanse, etc.

The removal of toolbelt is the hardest trade off we have ever seen on any class. The removal of a dodge for mirage is laughable against this, I would take this any day over the removal of toolbelt.

Disagree. Not to say it isn’t a huge tradeoff, but Warrior (using Bladesworn espec)  also loses a major mechanic . Specifically, burst skills. This is an especially big tradeoff since the 2nd weaponset is rendered useless in a number of situations.

Edited October 23, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[AphoticEssance.7592]

Eh. I am not a fan of the new spec. I don't like pet classes. We already have turrets. We did not really need another AI spec. 

[anbujackson.9564]

Warrior tradeoffs say hi. Take away the bs damage and you are left with what exactly? Yeah nothing, no burst, no weapon swap and no support (which the mech has plenty). Not even mentioning the problems with berserker.

Anyway I agree that they could keep the toolbet if your mech isnt active but they would have to put it on f6 which might look strange in the UI. 

A better idea would be to give three new F skills with an inactive mech with the functionality of the shown grandmaster trait (orbital lasers). The mech doing some stuff to support the mechanist while not being actively in combat. Lasers for damage (F1), generated shields for damage reduction (F2), some kind of minor heal or boon support (F3). There you go, no toolbet needed anymore.

Edited October 23, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[The Fear.3865]

Having toolbelt skills and rotate between mech invocation / deactivation in order to use toolbelt skills feels over 9000 more interesting gameplay than what they showed to us yesterday. 

Right now, I don't see the point playing anything else than full signets, cause those are real utilities while every over core utility seems now lackluster and incomplete without toolbelt. 

[Orack.9756]

TBH, I don't really care about toolbet skill. I gladly trade them for the new spe who look way more fun.
If you want toolbelt then don't use the spe, that pretty simple, scrapper and holo won't becoming useless, it's just one more option.

[santenal.1054]

2 hours ago, Orack.9756 said:

TBH, I don't really care about toolbet skill. I gladly trade them for the new spe who look way more fun.
If you want toolbelt then don't use the spe, that pretty simple, scrapper and holo won't becoming useless, it's just one more option.

That is such a nonsense argument. We want to play mechanist without being an easy target in our preferred game modes (mine is WVW). Not that every elite spec should be viable in every situation in every game mode, but the way mechanist is now, it's hardly gonna be any good anywhere which I doubt is supposed to be the goal.

Edited October 23, 2021 by santenal.1054

[Cisii.8317]

I'll give you all a little tip - Let your mech die all the time, get killed easily when your mech is away and don't deal any damage with the mech. That way after the beta, anet will buff us up real good.

[Icy.7306]

10 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

The utility.  It still has utility alongside what the engineers have remaining.  Yeah toolbelt skills are powerful,  but so is the mech. Its a trade off. Skills that rely on the toolbelt to be effective in the first place isn't ideal which is why Healing Kit went through many iterations. You just have to learn to use it differently 

I´m sorry to say, but Med Kit will be useless without a personal heal on toolbelt. You´ll literally be unable to trigger on-heal traits.

[Orack.9756]

1 hour ago, santenal.1054 said:

That is such a nonsense argument. We want to play mechanist without being an easy target in our preferred game modes (mine is WVW). Not that every elite spec should be viable in every situation in every game mode, but the way mechanist is now, it's hardly gonna be any good anywhere which I doubt is supposed to be the goal.

It's not an argument, it's my simple opinion, not everyone feel the same and I can understand that. But, PERSONNALY, I'm fine with it.

[azarhal.3086]

1 hour ago, Kaizoku.1298 said:

I'll give you all a little tip - Let your mech die all the time, get killed easily when your mech is away and don't deal any damage with the mech. That way after the beta, anet will buff us up real good.

 

Then a year after release they will nerf the spec so hard that nobody will ever play it again and Engineer is already the least played profession.

[Stalima.5490]

16 hours ago, Alec B.8905 said:

Soulbeast has the option to use base pet skills and their merge skills. that makes no sense why they shouldn't get toolbelt skills when not using the golem. so many traits and skills lose synergy without the toolbelt skills and entire trait lines get killed because of no toolbelt and multiple kits lose core parts of them without the toolbelt. I would like to see the toolbelt at least there when not using the mech. 

Everything else seems fair and fun but I need that toolbelt.

 

I believe they may have been going with a sort of customizable guardian variant with this engineer.

 

After looking through the skills, it does seem like the mechanist will be a really nice support tank.

[Shinjiko.1352]

12 hours ago, Lynx.9058 said:

because they'd have to come up with toolbelt variants on the new signet skills, and that's too much work =P

This feels like the real reason tbh.

All those people saying, learn a new playstyle etc. Losing toolbelt literally breaks parts of baseline things in engi. Medkit's heal skill is on f1. Your main heal from it doesn't exist anymore making the kit much more useless and that's a base engi utility. Lots of people like running this kit. So now utility is reduced severely because if you take it then you have no personal heal skill essentially.

I feel like giving you the toolbelt back when the mech is dead/ desummoned could be an option, but not whilst it is up. Maybe even go the holo route and make your toolbelt go on cooldown if you let your mech die vs sending it away..  That way you get to choose and swap in and out of having your mech up. But this might be too strong, who knows. Plus it would mean they have to make f skills for signets if you take them which they aren't going to do.

I was just always under the impression their tradeoffs for engi revolved around losing the f5 skill like we do in Scrapper and Holosmith. Not losing the entire bar and breaking some baseline trait interactions and some kits that rely on the f skills.

[Xaylin.1860]

10 hours ago, Icy.7306 said:

I´m sorry to say, but Med Kit will be useless without a personal heal on toolbelt. You´ll literally be unable to trigger on-heal traits.

I'm not sure wether you thought this through... 😶

[MatyrGustav.6210]

deleted

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by MatyrGustav.6210

[Lynx.9058]

20 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Anyway I agree that they could keep the toolbet if your mech isnt active but they would have to put it on f6 which might look strange in the UI. 

they'd just have to put the mech summon/despawn on F5.  Toolbelt skills are 1-4.

[Takato.4976]

Mind blowing concept here...

 

Just don't use mechanist if the loss of toolbelt skills is too much to handle?

 

The mechanist offers a new way to play engi. Its not about what you lose but what you gain from this spec. They did say that they're really changing things up for most of the professions ( mesmer no clones/thief support/engi no tool belt/necro glass cannon so on so forth )

 

Rather than being doom and gloom over beta numbers and interaction. Post your concerns and move on.. the beta hasnt even started yet for people to try it. We know most of these numbers etc will change.

[Greyforce.7956]

A possible solution, as addressed by many others in various forms:

Summon Mech: No tool belt skills, only Mech toolbelt commands.

Unsummon Mech: Tool belt skills available for all "classic" skills slotted in 6-10. Signet mounted in one? No tool belt skill for that one.

This would allow us more interesting gameplay with and without an active Mech (it can die, we have to await resummon cooldown or we just need the toolbelt skills in a fight) . And make you really have to balance the amount of signets used.

[anduriell.6280]

First such a pleasure to read this subforum, in the rangers one there are too many openworlders pushing their views into the forums which makes very difficult to have any conversation  in there.

On 10/22/2021 at 10:17 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

Toolbelt holds 27 different skills you can put on your bar. Many of them hold important functionalities like: stunbreak, heals (med kit becomes absolutely unusable with mechanist), many VERY hard hitting skills like grenade barrage, boon emoval, condi cleanse, etc.

The removal of toolbelt is the hardest trade off we have ever seen on any class. The removal of a dodge for mirage is laughable against this, I would take this any day over the removal of toolbelt.

Anet may have thought the removal of the toolbelt as "trade-off" for using the Golem. However i agree that is not a good aproach and a very harsh tradeoff. 

If it would be me and there is an absolute need for such trade-off i would make the the toolkit F abilities disabled while the F4 (Golem) is on CD. Like a global cooldown. And the F4 always reserved for the mech. 

 

I see this threads about exposing why the golem will be bad and in my long experience with pets i can assure you, you are correct and the golem will feel bad. But not for the reasons you may think. Unless Anet has completely reworked the pet mechanic. 
The design is better than any ranger pet and the mechanic takes the best from Soulbeast to be able to permantely stow and reset the HP/conditions of the golem with a 10s cooldown. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Amadeus.5687]

1 hour ago, Takato.4976 said:

Mind blowing concept here...

 

Just don't use mechanist if the loss of toolbelt skills is too much to handle?

 

The mechanist offers a new way to play engi. Its not about what you lose but what you gain from this spec. They did say that they're really changing things up for most of the professions ( mesmer no clones/thief support/engi no tool belt/necro glass cannon so on so forth )

 

Rather than being doom and gloom over beta numbers and interaction. Post your concerns and move on.. the beta hasnt even started yet for people to try it. We know most of these numbers etc will change.

 

It's such a blank statement to tell people not to play the new elite spec if they have issues with it. 

Elite specs is very much about what you lose and what you gain from the spec and as the spec is presented currently we loose far more then we gain. 
They are also expansion sellers and can mean a lot for people.

It's not just a number game, which could be easy solved (Not that Anet's balance track record nor speed is impressive).
But it's a matter about fundamentally mechanist over focus on AI and trades offs not being balanced. It's not about "doom and gloom". 

People post precisely their concerns around what we have already been shown, and yet we have several people like you trying to shut down the conversation with statements like "Just don't play it" "Stop the doom and Gloom" "Just have fun. "

We are gonna play the beta, we are gonna come with feedback, but I don't have to play the beta to see some over the glaring design issues that comes from tool belt being removed as the "trade off"

Edited October 24, 2021 by Amadeus.5687