Any hope for Willbender?

[Buran.3796]

21 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

 But the problems do seem to be primarily a matter of tweaking the numbers and speeding up the animations. It doesn't have Vindicator's problem of its damaging elite being locked behind what could easily be a suicide button, or Bladesworn's problem of being built around a mechanic that just doesn't work as designed in competitive modes and which is better used as a clunky burst skill. 

    I don't known why you see Vindi's elite as a problem at this point in time: NO ONE will use the Alliance for PvP/WvW. Took me less that two ours mixing PvP and roaming to entirely ditch that posibility. Recently Tubby Two Tons (one of the best Rev roamers in the game) uploaded a 3 hours video dueling Vindi vs Vindi; He insisted in not using staff (due was present in every Rev build since the night of times) and in using the Alliance (because was the new toy). Meanwhile his oponent was more practical and ran Shiro + Jalis, gs & staff. Tubby tried everything: Alliance + Shiro, Jalis, Mallyx, gs + swords, mace + axe, mace + sword, only dual wielding, etc.  Still lost 80-85% of the fights. Spear of Archemorous/Urn of Saint Viktor is a non-problem for Vindicator because the Alliance won't be used in competitive game modes. The Alliance has no "damaging elite" due using the Alliance automatically means losing damage, support and sustain.

   I would also advice you to look at the Vaans video duelling 1 vs 1 with the Bladesworn in PvP (including vs current meta builds), as I said I don't known if will be enough to make a new meta, but looked really solid. I've been active seeking similar performances from Willbender players and so far...  Nothing. Naru, one of the best players (which mains Necro, Guardian and Engineer) ditched the WB in matter of hours, and He beats platinum players using his DH trapper on regular basis. You can't do that with a Willbender.

[Buran.3796]

4 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

for pve i liked the mace/shield + hammer full  diviner, hammer felt pretty good to rotate with the KB and  rush to target to another KD or a ward CC ring from hammer 5 to a leap that KD.

   How good was that build soloing bounties/champions, etc? Because in no way I'll replace a reliable build which already do the task for another one which tries to do the same but in a different way which just happens to work worse.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

    I don't known why you see Vindi's elite as a problem at this point in time: NO ONE will use the Alliance for PvP/WvW. Took me less that two ours mixing PvP and roaming to entirely ditch that posibility. Recently Tubby Two Tons (one of the best Rev roamers in the game) uploaded a 3 hours video dueling Vindi vs Vindi; He insisted in not using staff (due was present in every Rev build since the night of times) and in using the Alliance (because was the new toy). Meanwhile his oponent was more practical and ran Shiro + Jalis, gs & staff. Tubby tried everything: Alliance + Shiro, Jalis, Mallyx, gs + swords, mace + axe, mace + sword, only dual wielding, etc.  Still lost 80-85% of the fights. Spear of Archemorous/Urn of Saint Viktor is a non-problem for Vindicator because the Alliance won't be used in competitive game modes. The Alliance has no "damaging elite" due using the Alliance automatically means losing damage, support and sustain.

   I would also advice you to look at the Vaans video duelling 1 vs 1 with the Bladesworn in PvP (including vs current meta builds), as I said I don't known if will be enough to make a new meta, but looked really solid. I've been active seeking similar performances from Willbender players and so far...  Nothing. Naru, one of the best players (which mains Necro, Guardian and Engineer) ditched the WB in matter of hours, and He beats platinum players using his DH trapper on regular basis. You can't do that with a Willbender.

The elite is just showcasing the biggest issue with the Alliance stance, and the one that probably most requires a functional change rather than numbers tweaking. Because that's what I'm mostly focusing on here - issues with design over simple issues of numbers tuning. Numbers will get tuned over time, both before and after release. Fixing a skill which just doesn't work, though: historically speaking, that can take years.

 

And I don't think Willbender has anything that just doesn't work conceptually, beyond some animations needing to be faster. Its problems are all based around the numbers, and numbers can (and probably will) be adjusted until it reaches a good balance point.

 

Which is why I regard duels and the like that you're trying to beat over my head as completely irrelevant. Because that's a numbers thing, and nobody contests that Willbender was critically undertuned in its beta. We're talking about its potential if that issue was resolved.

 

Similarly, the Alliance stance you're being so derogatory over might turn into the best choice for teamfights (it's obviously not intended for duels, another reason why judging things on duel performance is dodgy) if the numbers were tuned up and the urn was reworked.

 

You seem to be arguing on the assumption that the performances of elite specialisations in betas held months before release are set in stone, when the topic is one of what could happen WITH the sort of balance tweaking that usually comes from beta observations and feedback. Was Willbender bad in its beta? Yes. Is there hope for improvement? It being bad seems to be pretty much entirely one of numbers balancing and tightening up a few animations, so that's a definite yes.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm going to pull you up on the 'sacrifices defence for mobility'.

 

Courage on core guardian with Virtues is, at most, two Aegis per 30 seconds or so, and that's if you use the active use right after the passive procs and you've taken the grandmaster that boosts Courage (which is common in competitive but not always the case for burn guardians). Willbender, on the other hand, can potentially get multiple Aegis from a single Courage, especially if combined with multihit skills.

 

Similarly, Flowing Resolve only needs a couple of procs to offer comparable healing to active use of regular Resolve, and it offers an evade and a disengage as well.

 

The problem is that these skills came preloaded with aggressive skill splits. Flowing Resolve has a 50% increase in cooldown. Crashing Courage is close to double. Reducing those cooldowns will substantially improve durability and the benefits gained from related traits... and that's part of the undertuning I've been talking about. Otherwise, it probably is going to need to continue to use some core slot skills for self-sustain... but that's competitive modes in general, and guardian does have fairly good self-sustain utilities. It might end up being more like a blurring inscriptions mesmer than a quick gank thief, in that it's more of a mobile duellist than a +1er, but that's still a useful role. 

 

Scepter isn't as bad as you claim (although it isn't the primary damage choice either) - used properly, it can offer some pressure at around a 400-500 distance. 

 

As for PvE: Some bosses stand still and can be Dragonhuntered. Some move around a lot, though, or have mechanics that require a lot of movement, and I think Willbender has the potential to pull ahead there.

 

The Willbender Virtues require multiple hits in order to proc their effects.  They suffer from the same problem that symbols do, in that most people are terribly averse to standing in fire.

That PVE boss would have to be incredibly mobile.  The Dragonhunter, if running the standard Greatsword + Sword/Focus lineup, will have access to two leaps (Wings of Resolve, Leap of Faith) and a teleport (Symbol of Blades) before it had to go into utilities for Judges Intervention.  That's 2000 distance units of mobility the DH is packing, essentially for free.  

[draxynnic.3719]

19 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The Willbender Virtues require multiple hits in order to proc their effects.  They suffer from the same problem that symbols do, in that most people are terribly averse to standing in fire.

That PVE boss would have to be incredibly mobile.  The Dragonhunter, if running the standard Greatsword + Sword/Focus lineup, will have access to two leaps (Wings of Resolve, Leap of Faith) and a teleport (Symbol of Blades) before it had to go into utilities for Judges Intervention.  That's 2000 distance units of mobility the DH is packing, essentially for free.  

If only Guardian had skills that could potentially proc multiple hits like Zealot's Defence, Whirling Wrath, or the sword auto. And as much as people don't like standing in fire, there are ways to make it harder for people to avoid - people don't like standing in traps, after all, but getting kills from traps certainly happens. And guardian does have access to a few immobilises, including a trait that attaches an immobilise to F1.

 

If a PvE power dragonhunter has Judge's Intervention, that's a DPS loss, so no, it shouldn't be counted. Putting aside that at least one of the other two is going to be part of the rotation (since WB virtues would likely also be), I think the flaw in your argument there is that often what matters isn't distance travelled, but how often you can quickly get to where you need to be. The only one of those that DH has that WB is not going to have is Wings of Resolve, on a base 30s cooldown in PvE. Leap of Faith is on a 12s cooldown, Symbol of Blades on a 10s cooldown. So, if we assumed that the DH was keeping Symbol of Blades in reserve for mobility rather than using it for DPS, the boss would only need to be making significant movements (or require significant movements from the player) every 5-6 seconds or so to put DH at its limit. Traits might reduce that number a bit, but not hugely. 

 

There are some bosses that move or require movement a lot. Twin Largos immediately comes to mind.

 

Willbender in PvE currently has Justice at 12s, Resolve at 20, Courage at 30, and it can trait so that if it has to use them in quick succession it refunds the remaining recharge. If offhand sword is viable, that's another teleport at 20s. Depending on how the balance works out, it might be practical to bring one of the "DPS plus mobility" utilities on Willbender... certainly at a lower DPS loss than taking Judge's Intervention. And, let's not forget, it still has Symbol of Blades and Leap of Faith. That's bringing it to the point where there's pretty much always going to be a button you can press if you're further away from your target than you want to be. 

[Aeolus.3615]

12 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   How good was that build soloing bounties/champions, etc? Because in no way I'll replace a reliable build which already do the task for another one which tries to do the same but in a different way which just happens to work worse.

 

Yeah i think we all have the same reasoning towards that, but i ment it as the best feel i had with the spec was comboing mace/shied  + hammer  in terms of less clunkiness and mobility w/o sword 3 root.

this  what i used during beta   but on exotics  (or somethign arround  this)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAIl7lhySZsMP2IeUX2xKA-zRRYiBDHFsjoJFgQHA-e

 

Note: i didnt like the Virtues stances dash to target  plus  offhand sword, felt bit clunky.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Joxer.6024]

good info all, keep it up!!  😉

[yLoon.5289]

If Arena maintain the Wb's skills and traits. 
No hope, no salvation, just an useless "Teef" wannabe class.
My 2cents?

Arena messed it up. Remember why the presenter repeatedly drank sooOoo much water? Yes he knew he  f k e d it up.

Edited November 15, 2021 by yLoon.5289

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 11/12/2021 at 12:46 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

And I don't think Willbender has anything that just doesn't work conceptually, beyond some animations needing to be faster. Its problems are all based around the numbers, and numbers can (and probably will) be adjusted until it reaches a good balance point.

I'd argue that entire spec fails conceptually. It's focused on small AoEs, requiring holding an enemy in static combat but has no built in means to force people to stay in those AoEs, pretty much forcing you to take Greatsword. It sacrifices two out of three passives along with the class' support and/or defensive stats in order to gain access to one/two extra movement skills compared to DragonHunter, which are arguably worse than DH's movement skills and are both overkill since the class is built around static combat via small AoEs. Even comparing DH's and WBs Elite shows how badly conceived WB is, becasue both are built around AoE combat, but while DH brings an Elite trap which gathers up all of your opponents into a neat little package for massive damage, CCing them into the bargain, WBs Elite takes a long time to cast, is eminently interruptable and even if it succeeds, it pushes enemies out of your own AoE! I mean why?! Sure it will down the person who's stood still, unmoving in front of you, but who is going to do that? And why would you want his mates pushed back to safety from your damage??

Any fight which would warrant the use of the mobility skills completely ignores the existance of the passives and the WB flames, because the opponent won't stay in the small AoEs, in order to trigger the passives. Every aspect of the new WB Virtues can be and is entirely negated by sidestepping. You can literally walk the most part of a WBs defensive and offensive means, out of existance.

Frankly, in any mobile fight DH or Firebrand would be superior as they retains more skills and abilities to deal with the fight, through additional CC and movment skills, with higher damage and uptime of their passives to increase damage, defence and can support others while doing it.

In any static fight, DH, Core or FB would be superior as they retains more skills and abilities to deal with the fight, their defences remain intact and functional, with more reliable damage and they still retain the option of supporting others.

When would you ever need willbender in it's current form? If you want to cross a map quickly? Well, no we have mounts for that. In dungeons for solo skips? No the piddly AoEs would still manage to damage the chasing enemies and slow you down. Chasing down a thief? Well, no, you might sort of keep up but you have little to no means of stopping them, DH at least as the spear and movement skills for this, too. DH can also spam cripple.

As far as I can see, the entire spec fails on a conceptual level because Anet clearly don't have a concept for what it is, where it fits into the game or what it's supposed to do when it's there.

Edited November 15, 2021 by wolfyrik.2017

[Joxer.6024]

4 hours ago, yLoon.5289 said:

 Remember why the presenter repeatedly drank sooOoo much water? Yes he knew he  f k e d it up.

That is such a good point!!!  Lol, boy was choking on the truth??  😉

[Kodama.6453]

23 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

I mean why?! Sure it will down the person who's stood still, unmoving in front of you, but who is going to do that? And why would you want his mates pushed back to safety from your damage??

I guess the idea has been for it to be a PvP focused skill to isolate a target for your team to burst down.

When I saw that skill revealed, I had to think of Camille from League of Legends. Her ultimate ability (Hextech Ultimatum) is basically the same thing, you click an enemy you want to isolate and they get locked up in an area, while all other enemies surrounding them are pushed away.

She might actually even have been the inspiration for this skill. Problem is, GW2 is not League of Legends. This type of skill works amazingly well in that MOBA to create picks on high priority targets. But GW2 is so AoE heavy that you usually want enemies to get concentrated in one little area, like you described.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Ashantara.8731]

On 10/30/2021 at 8:36 PM, oscuro.9720 said:

Long answer: I played >10 hours of will bender in the first beta (competitive only), so I feel I have a fairly good grasp of what the spec’s position in competitive modes is, and where the problems are.

The OP was talking about PvE, not the competitive game mode(s).

In PvE there is not doubt that the current iteration is pretty bad, to say the least, and can't compete with either, Dragonhunter or Firebrand.

[oscuro.9720]

10 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The OP was talking about PvE, not the competitive game mode(s).

In PvE there is not doubt that the current iteration is pretty bad, to say the least, and can't compete with either, Dragonhunter or Firebrand.

Well, I definitely missed that. Oh well

[Puck.3697]

Yes there is hope:

Here's the fact, if the new elites suck compared to the prior  a vast quantity of players are just not gonna buy the expansion on release. They aren't gonna just upfront murder their own expansion. 

We are missing alot of information to realistically make a guess on its performance in EoD. 

We know there's a new team which are focused on the current games balancing that we are susposed to see closer to EoD. No one knows exactly the goal however. 

2 weeks before EoD every current elite could be hard nerfed, DH may go into EoD in absolute dogsh*t tier we don't realistically know. 

Ontop of that. PvE it's only gotta do one job, do more DPS then dragonhunter. And that's easy to do numerically and it will be the replacement to DH off the bat. 

Current DH doesn't have access in most situations to its absolute highest DPS option because its requirements to pull off. If willbender does more damage and the requirements to manage it are lower. It by default will win. 

If there's one thing you can rely on. 

The company will do something that is profitable. 

PvE balancing is the easiest part. 

If it does the highest damage it will be the meta choice for DPS guardians. 

If it gets a specific buff that it's able to uphold 100% that guardian speccs don't already have it will again become the meta choice for that utility skill. 

You can litterally throw alac at any build that it's proffession doesn't currently have and it will be the 100% used build for that role.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Joxer.6024]

22 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Yes there is hope:

Here's the fact, if the new elites suck compared to the prior  a vast quantity of players are just not gonna buy the expansion on release. They aren't gonna just upfront murder their own expansion. 

We are missing alot of information to realistically make a guess on its performance in EoD. 

We know there's a new team which are focused on the current games balancing that we are susposed to see closer to EoD. No one knows exactly the goal however. 

2 weeks before EoD every current elite could be hard nerfed, DH may go into EoD in absolute dogsh*t tier we don't realistically know. 

Ontop of that. PvE it's only gotta do one job, do more DPS then dragonhunter. And that's easy to do numerically and it will be the replacement to DH off the bat. 

Current DH doesn't have access in most situations to its absolute highest DPS option because its requirements to pull off. If willbender does more damage and the requirements to manage it are lower. It by default will win. 

If there's one thing you can rely on. 

The company will do something that is profitable. 

PvE balancing is the easiest part. 

If it does the highest damage it will be the meta choice for DPS guardians. 

If it gets a specific buff that it's able to uphold 100% that guardian speccs don't already have it will again become the meta choice for that utility skill. 

You can litterally throw alac at any build that it's proffession doesn't currently have and it will be the 100% used build for that role.

 

So true all of that and pretty much the reason I almost didnt make this post simply because its ALL gonna change and we have no clue as to how. But, its fun to speculate until then and if one of them seems to be on the track it can help for which class to focus on for when EOD drops. 

We will have some more fun next week and who knows...maybe some tweaks have already happened, Teapot touched on it in his last Teatime so there is bound to be changes and it will be fun to try them and then come in here and asked silly questions all over again!!!!

[Puck.3697]

34 minutes ago, Joxer.6024 said:

So true all of that and pretty much the reason I almost didnt make this post simply because its ALL gonna change and we have no clue as to how. But, its fun to speculate until then and if one of them seems to be on the track it can help for which class to focus on for when EOD drops. 

We will have some more fun next week and who knows...maybe some tweaks have already happened, Teapot touched on it in his last Teatime so there is bound to be changes and it will be fun to try them and then come in here and asked silly questions all over again!!!!

Oh is the 4th beta next week?

[Joxer.6024]

59 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Oh is the 4th beta next week?

22nd I believe!!

[Sythus.2396]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Oh is the 4th beta next week?

Starts on the 30th of November! 

[Puck.3697]

45 minutes ago, Sythus.2396 said:

Starts on the 30th of November! 

Oh 2 different answers 😂😂 either ones fine for me tho so 2 weeks then haha 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 11/15/2021 at 8:38 PM, wolfyrik.2017 said:

I'd argue that entire spec fails conceptually. It's focused on small AoEs, requiring holding an enemy in static combat but has no built in means to force people to stay in those AoEs, pretty much forcing you to take Greatsword. It sacrifices two out of three passives along with the class' support and/or defensive stats in order to gain access to one/two extra movement skills compared to DragonHunter, which are arguably worse than DH's movement skills and are both overkill since the class is built around static combat via small AoEs. Even comparing DH's and WBs Elite shows how badly conceived WB is, becasue both are built around AoE combat, but while DH brings an Elite trap which gathers up all of your opponents into a neat little package for massive damage, CCing them into the bargain, WBs Elite takes a long time to cast, is eminently interruptable and even if it succeeds, it pushes enemies out of your own AoE! I mean why?! Sure it will down the person who's stood still, unmoving in front of you, but who is going to do that? And why would you want his mates pushed back to safety from your damage??

Any fight which would warrant the use of the mobility skills completely ignores the existance of the passives and the WB flames, because the opponent won't stay in the small AoEs, in order to trigger the passives. Every aspect of the new WB Virtues can be and is entirely negated by sidestepping. You can literally walk the most part of a WBs defensive and offensive means, out of existance.

Frankly, in any mobile fight DH or Firebrand would be superior as they retains more skills and abilities to deal with the fight, through additional CC and movment skills, with higher damage and uptime of their passives to increase damage, defence and can support others while doing it.

In any static fight, DH, Core or FB would be superior as they retains more skills and abilities to deal with the fight, their defences remain intact and functional, with more reliable damage and they still retain the option of supporting others.

When would you ever need willbender in it's current form? If you want to cross a map quickly? Well, no we have mounts for that. In dungeons for solo skips? No the piddly AoEs would still manage to damage the chasing enemies and slow you down. Chasing down a thief? Well, no, you might sort of keep up but you have little to no means of stopping them, DH at least as the spear and movement skills for this, too. DH can also spam cripple.

As far as I can see, the entire spec fails on a conceptual level because Anet clearly don't have a concept for what it is, where it fits into the game or what it's supposed to do when it's there.

You're ignoring material that already exists. For instance, there's a trait in Justice that applies immobilise to the active use of Justice - there's a means to keep enemies within an AoE. Hammer has the Ring of Warding, and there are assorted other means to control enemy movement. Not saying I wouldn't like to see another Ring of Warding-type ability on WB since both of the Willbender bosses (Almorra and the Harrower in the Labyrinth) have such abilities, maybe as a rework of the elite so it generates a ring of warding rather than knocking enemies back, but it's not like they're completely lacking or that the overall concept is flawed.

 

There's also not that much leaning on the Willbender Flames. Damage is low, and while getting extra strikes is nice, when you have a pile of multihit attacks landing, you're still likely to get procs. It just needs to have the competitive balance set so that willbender flames strikes are nice but not essential.

 

The entire spec failing conceptually? Nah. It's mostly tuning issues.

[Dadnir.5038]

From my point of view, the only issue of the spec is that it's designed to take care of random packs of mobs. If you run into this kind of encounter you'll do really well with the willbender, if you face moving players or foes that favor taking distance from their target or isolated foes the willbender will just struggle and be plain worse than even core guardian.

Overall, the concept isn't bad, as it is "symbol gameplay" applied to the virtues, but this isn't an orginal gameplay on the guardian and it does have clear limitations.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[wolfyrik.2017]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You're ignoring material that already exists. For instance, there's a trait in Justice that applies immobilise to the active use of Justice - there's a means to keep enemies within an AoE. Hammer has the Ring of Warding, and there are assorted other means to control enemy movement. Not saying I wouldn't like to see another Ring of Warding-type ability on WB since both of the Willbender bosses (Almorra and the Harrower in the Labyrinth) have such abilities, maybe as a rework of the elite so it generates a ring of warding rather than knocking enemies back, but it's not like they're completely lacking or that the overall concept is flawed.

 

There's also not that much leaning on the Willbender Flames. Damage is low, and while getting extra strikes is nice, when you have a pile of multihit attacks landing, you're still likely to get procs. It just needs to have the competitive balance set so that willbender flames strikes are nice but not essential.

 

The entire spec failing conceptually? Nah. It's mostly tuning issues.

Wait, so your argument is that they should reduce the core mechanic of the spec to near worthlessness, then that would make it ok? So the concept doesn't work but it's not a failure?

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

Wait, so your argument is that they should reduce the core mechanic of the spec to near worthlessness, then that would make it ok? So the concept doesn't work but it's not a failure?

No, my argument is that the flames are not the core mechanic of the spec to begin with and that the spec can be balanced for competitive on the assumption that the enemy won't stand in the fire unless somehow forced to.

 

But, seriously, look at the numbers. It has a base coefficient of 0.22 per second. If the enemy stands within it for the full duration, it does significantly less damage than a full autoattack chain. It's clearly not supposed to be a big part of the Willbender's power budget. What it does do is provide extra strikes to trigger virtues, but that can be accounted for by the balance team recognising that the WB will get less procs in competitive than in PvE and balancing accordingly.

 

Something to note is that WB had some very aggressive skill splits out the gate, with the virtues each having at least 50% longer recharge in PvE. ArenaNet clearly shared the fears of people who expected WB to be OP and overcompensated the other way. Shortening those cooldowns, along with tidying up some of the animations, removing self-roots, and buffing some of the numbers (make offhand sword actually do more damage than focus...) should go a long way.

[Puck.3697]

54 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But, seriously, look at the numbers. It has a base coefficient of 0.22 per second. If the enemy stands within it for the full duration, it does significantly less damage than a full autoattack chain. It's clearly not supposed to be a big part of the Willbender's power budget. What it does do is provide extra strikes to trigger virtues, but that can be accounted for by the balance team recognising that the WB will get less procs in competitive than in PvE and balancing accordingly.

tbh given how underpowered willbender came out at.. we dont really know what susposed to be apart of its Power Budget.

It was Vastly underperforming even compared to other EoD Elites.

[draxynnic.3719]

52 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh given how underpowered willbender came out at.. we don't really know what supposed to be apart of its Power Budget.

It was Vastly underperforming even compared to other EoD Elites.

True (assuming that when you say it's underperforming compared to other EoD elites you're comparing to the average or median therof, not to ALL of them - I'm pretty confident that it at least outperformed Catalyst), but the coefficient being that low suggests that in the case of Willbender Flames, it's less a case of being undertuned and more a case of "well, damage just isn't the point". Even with Holy Reckoning, the main point is the healing: 33% more of basically nothing is still basically nothing. I think it's worth remembering here that Willbender Flames is being added to the already fairly decent DPS of base guardian (minus one core traitline, but Willbender also has access to damage modifiers), so they probably don't want the flames doing a lot of damage on top of what is already decent damage.

Which means that "a smart enemy won't stay in the flames if they can avoid it" really isn't a damage issue. It's a "you get less of the on-five-hits procs from the virtues" issue.

Which can be accounted for by balancing the Willbender in competitive with the assumption that it won't get as many procs when it uses the virtues as a PvE Willbender is likely to.

As of the first beta, though, it has a double whammy - the virtues provide reduced benefit due to reduced procs, and you get to use them less often due to the aggressive skill split on cooldowns.

But these are solvable problems. Nobody here is saying that Willbender wasn't bad during the first beta. The discussion is on whether it can be fixed. And I think the fundamentals are there, ArenaNet just needs to be less paranoid about it being overpowered.

Edited November 19, 2021 by draxynnic.3719