Teams ranked conquest will solve 90% of issues

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

To some extent 5 qs will be healthy, you just have to lock it for plat players because you know what will happen if they officialy announced 5  qs back in ranked. I'm all in for making the new comer experience the best so he doesn't leave after realizing he got at least 1 bot every match last 10 games. The average players are the most important cuz they bulk the community numbers, we had that wall of gold 1, 2 players that would never let plat vs silver games happen and make matches more  enjoyable for everybody, i think 5 qs  would bring that back.

league tried it and the game lost 50% of its population, win-trading was on all time highest and player satisfaction was on all time lowest. the only game that comes to mind that works like this is R6Siege but the r6 culture is 100% different then gw2, there is actual teamplay between players even in the lowest of rankings, voice comes exist and get used

[Shaogin.2679]

Well, the good news is, no one here is opposed to team queue, they just want the match maker to work properly. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 minute ago, Genesis.5169 said:

So many people afraid of losing to plat players....God this community. This is why pvp is in its state none of you have backbone and are willing to debase a queue to avoid fighting so called plat teams that will not be in your queue unless your g3 or really off hours and if you lost against that plat tam you'd only lose 5 pts

I lost 23 points when fighting rank 1 and rank 2 but that is not the point.
the game will LITERARELY BE DEAD and queue will NEVER pop in a team queue.
AT's are ALREADY kittening dead despite being only at a set time of the day
you always get 1 match against noobs that never played AT, kitten on them and they never play GW2 AT again, and the next match is against plat 3 tryhards as that is the only population willing to play at.

Trevor, if you care about 5v5 just kittening make your own server and invite people to make inhouses, you wont because nobody will kittening join you. Why? nobody gives a kittening about 5v5 and that is a sad truth, gw2 is casual game, nobody wants to waste time and effort making teams.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

33 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Trevor, if you care about 5v5 just kittening make your own server and invite people to make inhouses, you wont because nobody will kittening join you. Why? nobody gives a kittening about 5v5 and that is a sad truth, gw2 is casual game, nobody wants to waste time and effort making teams.

Nah

The reason why 5v5 community organized stuff doesn't work in GW2 has nothing to do with any of that. These kinds of things have been failing long before now. Even back when Esports were still alive in this game, Academy Gaming even had a difficult time holding together community organized 5v5 stuff. It's just too complex to organize, run, and complete in a timely fashion without an in-game system like AT formats to expedite the length of the tourney and cut out the confusions with communications in between matches while organizing. What would normally be a 45 minute AT now, was like a 4 to 6 hour sit down part time job to participate in before AT formats made everything easier to organize, run, and complete in a timely fashion.

AT formats were a saving grace, and Arenanet has really yet to make full use of that great function. It's a shame really. They should be organizing & holding WAY more special events through the AT format.

But funny you mention that. I was actually considering designing a 1v1 format discord with a certain set of rules that allows for setting schedules to meet your next 1v1 challenge, complete it, and post results for updates, rather than organizing it as a tournament that everyone needs to be on the same schedule to participate in.

Adding this in here real quick -> You know what? If they added some new function to guilds where we actually had access to hosting & running our own AT format tournaments with rules that we set for that, there is A LOT OF REALLY COOL STUFF that we could do, to get the community to care about more competitive environments again and even the PvP guilds that host these events. These events could even have prize pools that players toss in gold & gear or misc items w/e into some kind treasure trove that cannot be accessed after items are put into it, until winners are placed for the tourney and those prizes are distributed. These Guild Hall pvp AT tournies could also grant spectate access to those who were watching or who were invited to watch, something like that.

^ This is actually a really REALLY good idea the more I think about it. I mean... there is so much this would be capable of, and yeah you could eliminate all cheating first hand, just simply by having real players watch what's happening in-game. Might need to make a separate thread for that idea. That doesn't seem to unrealistic to ask for.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Stand The Wall.6987]

10 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

So yes when a plat 3 pug is playing they will farm everyone. They however dont play all day, people take breaks, get bored, etc. When they arent playing then you have a plat 2 pug farming everyone. And at off peak hours you might see a plat 1 pug winning everything.

what are you even trying to say? good players win? there is no illusion in any competitive players mind what is around the corner. rational people don't expect to win every game or expect the MM to force 50/50 win rates. sounds like what a rabid solo q'er would say.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

6 hours ago, ovenglove.9528 said:

Like the vast majority of people who play pvp I solo queue. I like it, it is very convenient. I can just log on and in a few mins of a queue be playing a game.

 

I don't want to have to find people to team with every time I log in. I don't want to deal with the community enforced gatekeeping that would spread from raids where you have to ping titles or legendaries. I don't want to be in a pvp guild where they may expect me to play certain specs or roles. I don't want any extra barrier to just clicking queue for ranked pvp and get a game a few minutes later.

 

If team queue was forced I would stop playing pvp. You may be really optimistic about it and say people will band together and form teams, but it is a risk that they won't. I think the majority of people are like me and it would just make the game mode worse for them. I am not sure that is a coin Anet want to flip, and for them the status quo seems a better option. I wouldn't get your hopes up for team queue.

yeah i think most of the games population is like this. gw2 is a casual solo friendly game (no offense) and thats the type of player it wants to attract. i think pvp is in a catch 22. we need teams to encourage competition and get rid of bots and cheaters, but we also need solo q's or else the non competitive population will be driven away. i think we can have both tho. ranked is mixed q, unranked is now ranked but solo only, and custom arenas/ hotjoin is the new unranked. makes sense on paper to me but i dunno how it would play out. something has to be done, thats for sure. hiding behind what ifs and doing nothing is proving to be catastrophic for pvp.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

28 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

what are you even trying to say? good players win? there is no illusion in any competitive players mind what is around the corner. rational people don't expect to win every game or expect the MM to force 50/50 win rates. sounds like what a rabid solo q'er would say.

For the last time:

• Low population means very few teams playing at any given time.
• Very few teams playing means a far lower probability that matchmaking can pair 2 teams of equal skill against each other.
• People dont like fighting teams well outside of their skill range.
• People dont like it when 1 team has a 100% win rate and there is no high level competition.
• Winning teams dont like it when everyone que dodges them.
• People dont like it when prestige titles are just a mark of how willing you are to metagame the matchmaking & rating system.

Is solo que perfect at these things? Obviously not, but 5 man ques would definitely make a lot of things worse without improving much.

Honestly you guys who are talking kitten like "thats what a solo quer would say" or "you are just mad you suck and cant play on a winning team" are hilarious. Maybe you need to think this through past "but wintraders wouldnt be on my team".

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

For the last time:

• Low population means very few teams playing at any given time.
• Very few teams playing means a far lower probability that matchmaking can pair 2 teams of equal skill against each other.
• People dont like fighting teams well outside of their skill range.
• People dont like it when 1 team has a 100% win rate and there is no high level competition.
• Winning teams dont like it when everyone que dodges them.
• People dont like it when prestige titles are just a mark of how willing you are to metagame the matchmaking & rating system.

Is solo que perfect at these things? Obviously not, but 5 man ques would definitely make a lot of things worse without improving much.

Honestly you guys who are talking kitten like "thats what a solo quer would say" or "you are just mad you suck and cant play on a winning team" are hilarious. Maybe you need to think this through past "but wintraders wouldnt be on my team".

doing nothing is often worse then doing the wrong thing, cuz it gives the opposition or whatever is wrong time to manifest and exponentially make things worse. why do you think there is low population and what would you do about it? do you think bots and cheaters are a problem many quit the game over?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

47 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

doing nothing is often worse then doing the wrong thing, cuz it gives the opposition or whatever is wrong time to manifest and exponentially make things worse. why do you think there is low population and what would you do about it? do you think bots and cheaters are a problem many quit the game over?

If it were up to me I wouldnt have abandoned pvp development years ago. I would have designed and balaned elite specs for pvp. I would put out new pvp and wvw maps regularly. I would still have anet sponsored tournaments like ToL on a regular seasonal schedule. I wouldnt have given up on esports so soon.

The botting and wintrading problems in pvp right now are directly tied to years of neglect. Its a positive feedback loop. People have been quitting the game because its been neglected, the lower population made bots and wintrading a bigger issue, and now there are even more reasons for people to quit and the population continues to decline.

[Morwath.9817]

3 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

yeah i think most of the games population is like this. gw2 is a casual solo friendly game (no offense) and thats the type of player it wants to attract. i think pvp is in a catch 22. we need teams to encourage competition and get rid of bots and cheaters, but we also need solo q's or else the non competitive population will be driven away. i think we can have both tho. ranked is mixed q, unranked is now ranked but solo only, and custom arenas/ hotjoin is the new unranked. makes sense on paper to me but i dunno how it would play out. something has to be done, thats for sure. hiding behind what ifs and doing nothing is proving to be catastrophic for pvp.

If there would be both soloQ ranked and mixedQ ranked, then mixedQ ranked would be just dead most of the time probably. I'd rather have GvG GW1 like ladder with tournament invites for the best guilds and some shinny rewards attached to it.

[Gorem.8104]

10 hours ago, ovenglove.9528 said:

Like the vast majority of people who play pvp I solo queue. I like it, it is very convenient. I can just log on and in a few mins of a queue be playing a game.

 

I don't want to have to find people to team with every time I log in. I don't want to deal with the community enforced gatekeeping that would spread from raids where you have to ping titles or legendaries. I don't want to be in a pvp guild where they may expect me to play certain specs or roles. I don't want any extra barrier to just clicking queue for ranked pvp and get a game a few minutes later.

 

If team queue was forced I would stop playing pvp. You may be really optimistic about it and say people will band together and form teams, but it is a risk that they won't. I think the majority of people are like me and it would just make the game mode worse for them. I am not sure that is a coin Anet want to flip, and for them the status quo seems a better option. I wouldn't get your hopes up for team queue.

Why would it be forced? Who said here it would be forced? What thread are you reading? Obviously not this one. 
Premades only fight other premades and solo q's only fight other solo q's. That's how it works, you can still play as you like, and more people would play pvp in general. Unless you are admitting that solo q SUCKS so bad that it sucks to suck suck and premades would be so fun and actually lead to good pvp that no one solo q's anymore. 

[ovenglove.9528]

18 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Why would it be forced? Who said here it would be forced? What thread are you reading? Obviously not this one. 
Premades only fight other premades and solo q's only fight other solo q's. That's how it works, you can still play as you like, and more people would play pvp in general. Unless you are admitting that solo q SUCKS so bad that it sucks to suck suck and premades would be so fun and actually lead to good pvp that no one solo q's anymore. 

 

Alright solo vs solo q, and premades only vs other premades would be great. Solo q players still get to solo q, and don't have to go up against premades. Would this make everyone happy then?

I guess I misread the thread  I did think it was really irrational to go enforced team queue, clearly it would mean a lot of lost players who don't want to be forced to find a team. but it seems there is enough common sense to see why it wouldn't work.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by ovenglove.9528

[Shao.7236]

8 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

So you want team queue with no class swapping then?

That was the premise with anything not solo because giving too much freedom while already being able to tell what the enemy team is using kills any possible innovation that players would have to come up with in the preparation phase to deal with said team accordingly.

 

Meta's are particularly stale because we always can rely on it while it's well known that stacking even too much of the meta doesn't yield as good of results in team composition, it leaves opportunity for other things to come around.

 

 Queue phase easily can be increased to a minute for players to also switch their profession before accepting then if so require for build preparation, that can also be done.

 

By blocking profession switching we also kill one way that matches can be manipulated, it's well known that many players such as Naru queue as Necro then resort to Holo because they don't want a bad Necro on their team, that I've seen the same with Warrior too.

 

Ranked is meant to be taken seriously, increased slightly the time for game preparation is nothing compared several games out there which can take up to 5 minutes, to take note those games also have often no ability to even know what the enemy is using and if you get to know so, it's one pick on each side at a time to avoid the rock paper formula mess we're having currently in GW2.

Outside of that otherwise, if we're gonna do SoloQ only, there's no reason to have any profession limitation or preventions, teams are extremely unlikely to be stacked. SoloQ also increases the competitiveness by making no one a permanent ally and make more sense for the current way rewards work on the leaderboard.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

If there would be both soloQ ranked and mixedQ ranked, then mixedQ ranked would be just dead most of the time probably. I'd rather have GvG GW1 like ladder with tournament invites for the best guilds and some shinny rewards attached to it.

mixed q being dead most of the time is a guess, and for the second part thats essentially what ATs are.

[Morwath.9817]

1 minute ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

mixed q being dead most of the time is a guess, and for the second part thats essentially what ATs are.

It's not a guess. There is no reason for solo/duoQ players to que against full premades instead of going for solo/duoQ and full premades don't want to play against top premades. Do you think ATs would have any participants without rewards they have (and that would be exacly mixedQ)?

ATs ain't anyhow related to GUILD wars, they don't have rating, neither they do have matchmaking, they are just tournaments.

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

2 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

If it were up to me I wouldnt have abandoned pvp development years ago. I would have designed and balaned elite specs for pvp. I would put out new pvp and wvw maps regularly. I would still have anet sponsored tournaments like ToL on a regular seasonal schedule. I wouldnt have given up on esports so soon.

The botting and wintrading problems in pvp right now are directly tied to years of neglect. Its a positive feedback loop. People have been quitting the game because its been neglected, the lower population made bots and wintrading a bigger issue, and now there are even more reasons for people to quit and the population continues to decline.

all of those things would be great but it would be very hard to dig out of the loop without at least addressing the issue in some way. even if anet somehow managed to get a lot more people playing pvp, bots and cheating would still be a giant stone holding the mode down. basically all of those things are irrelevant if people are still playing with bots and throwers. at least doing all of those things first would make sense before doing a mixed q again.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 minute ago, Morwath.9817 said:

It's not a guess. There is no reason for solo/duoQ players to que against full premades instead of going for solo/duoQ and full premades don't want to play against top premades. Do you think ATs would have any participants without rewards they have (and that would be exacly mixedQ)?

ATs ain't anyhow related to GUILD wars, they don't have rating, neither they do have matchmaking, they are just tournaments.

 

it is a guess, there were lots of people who played in the mixed q back in the day. i'm sure a lot of people would migrate to the solo q only but even in big down times people can always just switch from mixed q to solo q.

well sure but ATs are what we have and they're close enough and anet seems to hate gvg so.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

ATs ain't anyhow related to GUILD wars, they don't have rating, neither they do have matchmaking, they are just tournaments.

 

ATs are where real matches still happen.

They are all that's left of this game's competitive scene.

Too many people are overlooking this fact in their feedback.

[Genesis.5169]

12 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I lost 23 points when fighting rank 1 and rank 2 but that is not the point.
the game will LITERARELY BE DEAD and queue will NEVER pop in a team queue.
AT's are ALREADY kittening dead despite being only at a set time of the day
you always get 1 match against noobs that never played AT, kitten on them and they never play GW2 AT again, and the next match is against plat 3 tryhards as that is the only population willing to play at.

Trevor, if you care about 5v5 just kittening make your own server and invite people to make inhouses, you wont because nobody will kittening join you. Why? nobody gives a kittening about 5v5 and that is a sad truth, gw2 is casual game, nobody wants to waste time and effort making teams.

Arent you plat2?

[Leonidrex.5649]

3 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Arent you plat2?

depends on season, when I take a long break I start from gold again

EDIT
this season I did 7 games total, last season 0, season before that I think I did ~10-15.
 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Bazsi.2734]

2 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Arent you plat2?

Past ratings hardly mean anything now. I remember being 1790 and not even making it into the top 250... and at the moment I'm plat 1, and I wasn't even trolling this season. By the way I'm still playing against the same guys, so current plat 1 feels like old plat 3...
It's almost as if the population is dying out and it cannot support rankings so far from the median anymore!

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i don't understand whats so hard to understand about this. in order for a competitive scene to grow it needs to encourage teams. gw2 pvp is going no where, well its already no where but something should be at least tried. maybe the current ranked system is left alone and anet could expand on ATs. i dunno, i don't have all the answers but doing something is better then doing nothing.

[Crab Fear.1624]

8 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

It's not a guess. There is no reason for solo/duoQ players to que against full premades instead of going for solo/duoQ and full premades don't want to play against top premades. Do you think ATs would have any participants without rewards they have (and that would be exacly mixedQ)?

ATs ain't anyhow related to GUILD wars, they don't have rating, neither they do have matchmaking, they are just tournaments.

 

The game mode should be form a group from 1 up to 5, and how you fair is really up to how random you let your other team mates be.

I don't understand why everyone should be subjective to the randomness of team mates that you want to be subjected to.

 

Leave the ability to queue up solo, but let it be a merged ranked.

I want to play ranked matches with full guild teams, and I know for a fact that I'm not alone.

My guild alone would have 7-8 teams going a night.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Past ratings hardly mean anything now. I remember being 1790 and not even making it into the top 250... and at the moment I'm plat 1, and I wasn't even trolling this season. By the way I'm still playing against the same guys, so current plat 1 feels like old plat 3...
It's almost as if the population is dying out and it cannot support rankings so far from the median anymore!

Or maybe it has something to do with synch queue bots & buddies throwing for people.

And you're right, current ratings quite seriously do not mean anything anymore. I see players who 3 or 4 years ago in a higher population right before the win trade boom, who would have realistically played at bottom plat, somehow climbing into nearly p3 margins. Then I see well known strong players who are always MAT material, getting snuffed down into g3 streaks, who 3 or 4 years ago would have realistically never dropped bellow 1600 even on a bad day. People have recognized that rating means so little at this point, that in AT formation currently, no one invites new p2+ players on current leaderboards that they don't recognize. This is because they always end up being just bad. How are they even getting to 1650ish rating margins? Who knows, doesn't even matter. At this point, the community picks players on merit & reputation of their name alone.

Why is this happening? First we have botched algorithm design with heavy emphasis on it dealing overly punishing situations for older accounts with 10s of thousands of games played and historically high MMR, that becomes exasperated in low population. Secondly we have a queue system that designed from the ground up to be easily exploitable with match manipulation, almost as if it were intended to be that way, as to encourage it or invite it.

And in a certain light, I can't blame people for queuing as a squad on discord for ranked. How the hell else can you make your time investment worth it anymore? I get it. I talk to people. I know why they do it, and I'm not referring to the small group at the top who sells things. I'm talking about normal average players who are looking to be able to compete against the other people who are already doing it. But when all of this unfolds, we get an environment that simply isn't even real pvp game anymore. None of the matches are even competitive outside of win trade team bumps into other win trade team, and then the matches aren't even matches anymore. Have you never seen this happen? I actually have screenshots of a certain crew bumping into another crew, and instead of just playing the game, they begin making deals with each other and diplomatically decide who has dibs on the win. 

But THIS is the crux of the problem. If you wondered what the #1 reason is why no one is playing this game, there you go. It's garbage like that, when people notice something is very very wrong with this game's pvp scene, that we see new guys show up to the forum who drop posts on us that curiously and very seriously ask: "What Is Wrong With The Pvp Matches?" But they aren't invested into this game enough to want to fight for it like some of us do, so they see all this nonsense, cheating, non-existent match quality, and then they turn around and leave just as soon as they've showed up. <- This is primarily the biggest reason why this population is not healing gradually or even maintaining itself as friggin f2p game man. First and foremost before any balance issues or anything like that, people show up to this scene, and it is quite clear that it is riddled with rigged match making up & down. No one sticks around man.

People understand when showing up to a pvp scene, that they're gonna get rolled around for awhile until they adapt. people get that. But what they do not expect and will not tolerate, is showing up to a theatre, where the pvp isn't actually pvp, but rather a show where we pretend the pvp is pvp. <- This is why people don't stick around longer than a week, when that realization hits. This game cannot and will not heal until this single detrimental & critical problem is solved. The only way to do it, is with 5man queues. 

Some of the posters in here still want to fight against this fact by making all kinds of xenophobic like excuses as to why they can't or don't want to take the time to form 5man teams, even though they do it every night in other game mode. They insist on fighting against suggestions to fix the problem, not just good suggestions or the best suggestions, BUT THE ONLY SUGGESTION that is going to work, bringing back 5man queues. This isn't your normal forum agenda here, where someone is sweet talking and trying to press a point. I am being serious. Nothing can be fixed in this game mode until that cheating is culled, nothing. The only way to do that is to bring back 5man queues for ranked.

That or as I have suggested many times, just put the rating/badge icon system to AT format. Shorter 1 month seasons based around MAT. <- I would encourage this route before fixing ranked, honestly. The reason why is because in Swiss format, you get a chance to face many different teams of different rating margins. No one is going to be forced to grind against the 1 p3 team over and over. You would be getting about 4 matches with 10 entries in the AT, against various different MMRs. It would pan out nicely. To anyone who doesn't run ATs who isn't familiar with how this works, you have no right to argue against this until you do know how it works. I'm telling you, the rating/badge algorithm would work BETTER in AT format with 5man teams than it does with mixed queues now, for every possible mentionable reason.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Morwath.9817]

2 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

The game mode should be form a group from 1 up to 5, and how you fair is really up to how random you let your other team mates be.

I don't understand why everyone should be subjective to the randomness of team mates that you want to be subjected to.

 

Leave the ability to queue up solo, but let it be a merged ranked.

I want to play ranked matches with full guild teams, and I know for a fact that I'm not alone.

My guild alone would have 7-8 teams going a night.

 

Personaly, if I would be forced to 1 up to 5 que, I'd just quit sPvP and never look back.

I've already experienced "teamQ" within ranked after HoT was released and matchmaking being much better with bigger population where teams had extra ratings to balance them against soloQ, and you know what happened? So called top teams would just send one member on alt with bronze rating to get matched against soloQ for easy farm. On top of that, while soloQing you would hit certain threshold, where you would only play against teams and it was miserable experience.

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

ATs are where real matches still happen.

They are all that's left of this game's competitive scene.

Too many people are overlooking this fact in their feedback.

Why do you believe more teams would play in mixedQ, if they are afraid to play against other teams for better rewards in ATs? People may say, they would play in mixedQ as team if that would be an option, but in reality they would face 55 rank dragons or any other decent team few times in a row and would just disband.

Because you need to realize, if you put soloQ and mixedQ as separate Qs, then soloQ players will mostly que for soloQ and 5 mans will have to play against each other, but they don't really want to do that. Thats why I think having some form of GvG with extra carrot is the only way to do it.

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Morwath.9817