Thoughts on the Blight heal change

[Esorono.1039]

5 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I suspect the devs are finally considering the numbers of players playing what in game, from one side you have the players stating that necro hasn't got access to sustain tools like other professions...say elementalist, but then in game you see a single ele being played out of 20 players, where at least 10 of those players will be necro.

Something does not add up, either the devs are lying  with the numbers or the players themselves are exagerating the weaknesses of the class, I bet my money on the latter.

First of all, it would be time to water down this talk of blocks and invulnerabilities like they are given on a 5s CD and lasting for long periods of time. Skills like obsidian flesh are on a 60s CD and last few secs , other block skills like arcane shield are on a 45s CD and merely block 3 attacks, finally Mist form is on a 75s CD so......there is that, that would more than explain the abundance of necros compared to those classes with blocks, invulnerabilities etc etc etc.

If ele with his "blocks and invulnerability" is so good....why are you all playing necro and not ele atm?

The point is, if necromancer was anywhere close to be as fragile as people on the forum make it to be...we wouldn't have so many of them and surely it wouldn't be a FOTM class so.....

I see your point, but it also needs context. Base necromancer is not squishy, it has the highest base vitality of any class, this is due to having the highest base health as well as shroud that is based off from vitality. As a trade-off, necromancers have very limited active defense options, like worm, spectral armor, and spectral walk. This is usually fine because Necro and Reaper have shrouds which effectively double their already super high HP. Scourges spew out barrier like a fountain which helps them survive as well. Harbinger however lowers their hp to around elementalist levels, but they don't even have access to Mist form, arcane shield, or obsidian flesh. They have flesh worm, spectral armor, spectral ring, and spectral walk. None of these actually fully defends you, worm and walk get you out of the way if you set them up before and act as a stun break. Ring and Armor gives you protection making it your tanky option. So instead of comparing that option with Mist Form, Arcane Shield, or Obsidian Flesh, it would be like comparing their defensive option with Armor of Earth, and Lightning Flash, but both slightly weaker. And I am pretty sure elementalists would down a lot more if they had to rely on those options.

[Shroud.2307]

2 hours ago, Arannya.8324 said:

Nobody expects easy play, that is not the point here. The "glass cannon - no defence" approach (literally null defence in this case) makes little sense because in the case of necro there isn't a readily accessible combo that can one shot, it's mostly buildable or dependant on life force. Every other one shot class has minimum access to some form of defence, be it stealth, block, invul and so on. Personally, I have been playing power reaper only since its launch, I don't endorse passive play builds, and while reaper does crazy good dmg it's always down to landing a combo (like cc in rs4) and even that has some form of sustain... There's no gunflame, death's judgement and so on that could justify this literal null defence trade off.

I'm a long time zerk core Necro, and played zerk Harbinger during the betas. I'm not saying this to disagree with you, because I agree with what you've said 100% - but Harbinger can do a ton of damage.

... But it has to be melee.
I was able to shotgun people for 10 - 15k, with 18k being my record, with Shroud #2. Point blank that skill absolutely trucks. But why in the kitten would anyone want to get in melee range with Harbinger, while Blight stacked, when your maximum health is probably like, ~14k and you have no active defense, nothing to sponge with, and no health regen.

Also, it isn't a combo as you've stated. I could Shroud 5 -> 2 people, but how do you think that's going to go over if I were to try it against a Warrior/Spellbreaker, Guard/Dragonhunter/Firebrand, Herald/Renegade, etc. If I miss that float, the next hit I take is going to kill me.

The way I see Harbinger right now is like an entire spec designed around the concept of Fresh Air Weaver. Be hyper defensive while throwing damage behind you, force cooldowns and wait for an opening to attempt a burst. But that only works when you have instant/very fast cast time skills and some form of active defenses like Weaver does to buy time for that burst.

Harbinger will be food in group fights and will have very few, if any, favored 1 v 1 match ups.

[KrHome.1920]

Harbinger is dead for PvP and WvW smalscale with these changes. Anyone who plays the competitive modes for more than 5 minutes knows this.

The simple strategy to beat harbinger is just jump on it, when it uses its 2 (now) pathetic leaps, cast one port or leap (which every class has plenty of) to follow him and continue to burst him. It will die like a fly. It's so laughable.

[Bale.3851]

Personally i really like the mid range fast paced condi gameplay with carrion amulet. Making your more of a roamer but if you are looking to go in melee with a power build everyone will shout "reaper". And they are right. We already have a roamer like melee. And this melee is very well put togther. Harbringer simply dont add anything good right now to the game.

 

Its not kung fu like in the trailer. Its not really deadly (not more than reaper). Its just a torment shooting target with 1 more mobility skill than reaper and much less sustain. The concept is nice but the implementation is bad. There needs to be an active mitigation mechanic added if you want to implement harbringer the way it is. And the focus is on ACTIVE. Please no kitten like "get X% reduced damage for each blight stack".

[Asum.4960]

28 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

The way I see Harbinger right now is like an entire spec designed around the concept of Fresh Air Weaver. 

Exactly, except much worse - having to be melee, being projectile based and having even less defenses and escape/focus break potential. 

 

And Fresh Air is already mostly just a low rank stomper meme build.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Asum.4960

[KrHome.1920]

Imagine running into a longbow soulbeast open filed now. You can basically ALT F4 right at the beginning of the encounter.

[Shroud.2307]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I suspect the devs are finally considering the numbers of players playing what in game, from one side you have the players stating that necro hasn't got access to sustain tools like other professions...say elementalist, but then in game you see a single ele being played out of 20 players, where at least 10 of those players will be necro.

Something does not add up, either the devs are lying  with the numbers or the players themselves are exagerating the weaknesses of the class, I bet my money on the latter.

First of all, it would be time to water down this talk of blocks and invulnerabilities like they are given on a 5s CD and lasting for long periods of time. Skills like obsidian flesh are on a 60s CD and last few secs , other block skills like arcane shield are on a 45s CD and merely block 3 attacks, finally Mist form is on a 75s CD so......there is that, that would more than explain the abundance of necros compared to those classes with blocks, invulnerabilities etc etc etc.

If ele with his "blocks and invulnerability" is so good....why are you all playing necro and not ele atm?

The point is, if necromancer was anywhere close to be as fragile as people on the forum make it to be...we wouldn't have so many of them and surely it wouldn't be a FOTM class so.....

I want you to play a zerk Ele, maybe with a couple pieces of Mara so your health is somewhere in the ballpark of 12 - 14k.

Then I want you to NOT USE any active defenses. That means no; Obsidian Flesh, Mist Form, Magnetic Aura, Arcane Shield, Swirling Winds, etc.
No; projectile destructs, no blocks, no invulns.

Next, I want you to use Weaver and use Sword. That means to do the bulk of your damage you'll need to be melee range, and multiple skills will have moderate cast times meaning you can't rely on instant/0.3sec cast time skills while kiting and attacking from range/behind you.

That's what it's going to be like to play Harbinger.

If you were to play a Harbinger build with full Mara and Speed runes or something to that effect, you'll have lots of health to start the fight. If you play full TB/Dire or something, your defenses won't be non-existent, but they're still going to be very low. You'd be relying on the innate stats of health and toughness and nothing else. Once a fight gets going and you've got some Blight on you, which will happen, you can return to what I said above and imagine how the fight will go.

[Arheundel.6451]

29 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I'm a long time zerk core Necro, and played zerk Harbinger during the betas. I'm not saying this to disagree with you, because I agree with what you've said 100% - but Harbinger can do a ton of damage.

... But it has to be melee.
I was able to shotgun people for 10 - 15k, with 18k being my record, with Shroud #2. Point blank that skill absolutely trucks. But why in the kitten would anyone want to get in melee range with Harbinger, while Blight stacked, when your maximum health is probably like, ~14k and you have no active defense, nothing to sponge with, and no health regen.

Also, it isn't a combo as you've stated. I could Shroud 5 -> 2 people, but how do you think that's going to go over if I were to try it against a Warrior/Spellbreaker, Guard/Dragonhunter/Firebrand, Herald/Renegade, etc. If I miss that float, the next hit I take is going to kill me.

The way I see Harbinger right now is like an entire spec designed around the concept of Fresh Air Weaver. Be hyper defensive while throwing damage behind you, force cooldowns and wait for an opening to attempt a burst. But that only works when you have instant/very fast cast time skills and some form of active defenses like Weaver does to buy time for that burst.

Harbinger will be food in group fights and will have very few, if any, favored 1 v 1 match ups.

They did claim that Harbinger will turn necro upside down...problem is , it will be difficult if not impossible to sell this idea to a playerbase used to core necro and scourge or even reaper. It's way too late to introduce high risk builds for necro

[KrHome.1920]

6 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

They did claim that Harbinger will turn necro upside down...problem is , it will be difficult if not impossible to sell this idea to a playerbase used to core necro and scourge or even reaper. It's way too late to introduce high risk builds for necro

Please, finally (!) start to make yourself familiar with the necro class! Your statements to this topic are absurd every single time.

Harbinger is not high risk high reward. Look at the damage multipliers in the competitive modes! It has barely bruiser damage in glass gear and now lost its regeneration and mobility. It has nothing left but a few less blight stacks, that let you tank one single more hit.

The changes are 100% PvE oriented. ANet did not think one second about the competitive modes. All these elixier reworks do exclusively work out in PvE. In the other modes they are irrelevant - in contrast to the sustain and mobility nerfs, which have a huge impact.

Edited November 25, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Arannya.8324]

1 hour ago, Shroud.2307 said:

but Harbinger can do a ton of damage.
 

I never said it cannot do damage, the problem is the ability to burst damage / one shot before it dies to no defensive abilities and lack of sustain - there isn't a skill to trade off that huge risk like for example when DE was launched landing silly 1 shot DJ (from stealth), the way you can get 1 shot by other classes while they still have access to some minimal defence (stealth, block, port you name it). You are dependant on life force and skill combos that are graphic & have a long cast time. Your example - Shroud 5-Shroud 2 is not enough to kill off someone and it assumes you start with enough life force, you are in range and fight an afk target that will not stunbreak (since they nerfed that too, if u break S5 you are now immune to the rest of it) block or whatever. 

I am sure you understand where I am coming from because your examples are very fair and to the point. And yes if you fail to land that S5-S2 in range (very likely with the added nerfs) especially now with no HP regen it's game over, 1 rapid fire game over etc etc.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Arannya.8324

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

 It's way too late to introduce high risk builds for necro

I actually don't agree with this. The problem though is that Harbinger is absurd risk for moderate reward - and that's just not a good deal for an entire spec to be forced into (esp. when competing with plenty low to no risk - high reward specs in the game). 

 

There is no amount of damage they can give to a spec with Light Armor, Low Health, 0% passive damage reduction, next to 0 active damage mitigation in no focus breaks, invuln, stealth, clones, de-targets, blocks, barrier - barely any stab, Prot, endurance gain, projectile mitigation, moderate mobility at best, barely any combo interactions etc. that would still be healthy for the game to make it worthwhile to run.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Arannya.8324]

13 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's way too late to introduce high risk builds for necro

I mean with a statement like that, you just made it clear you cannot be taken seriously and are here just to throw in some bad arguments with no real substance. But it's good that people notice and I quite enjoyed the rest of the conversation on the topic.

[Dr Meta.3158]

In pvp, harbinger doesn't even do that much damage before the current damage nerfs it has now. It's a garbage class in pvp now and pointless in pve over other choices, especially scourge which does its job better in every way except quickness application which is done by the obligatory firebrand anyway.

The quickness applying to minions now will make some new meme builds now.

[wolfyrik.2017]

I mean, the one thing nobody had a problem with the was the health conversion. I don't think anyone had a problem with using that as the sustain, given the removal of the shroud health.

Did I miss something?

 

kitten

[Obtena.7952]

21 minutes ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

I mean, the one thing nobody had a problem with the was the health conversion. I don't think anyone had a problem with using that as the sustain, given the removal of the shroud health.

Did I miss something?

 

kitten

I think the hint is there in the language Anet used to explain it's removal. 

1) The mechanic of draining life force to heal when in combat and not in shroud was not very clear, and felt more punishing than helpful, as it often made it difficult to accumulate Life Force to use in Shroud.

Specific changes made in response to this feedback: We agree, there was too much going on here, and this mechanic felt 'tacked on' with no clear purpose or synergy with the rest of the Harbinger's kit. 

Now ... I don't recall any feedback from players that indicated health from LF was 'more punishing than helpful' because frankly, that's just a REALLY stupid thing to say considering it was the ONLY sustain this spec had (aside from the basic heal, dodge and VIT gear) and we have LOTS of ways to get LF over time ... but whatever I guess 🤔. This is one instance where I think Anet should have been more DISCRIMINATING of the feedback because clearly, that's feedback from some group of players that has NO idea how to play this class. 

If I assume the worst, what it feels like is that Anet justified a change to the spec through some very weird interpretation of the player feedback to do it, to ensure that players did not 'abuse' the spec passively; I think it's safe to say Anet will go VERY far to ensure necro players use Shroud, EVEN if it means lowering the value of the spec to do so. It's funny they believe that the offensive upsides for Blight consuming and a increase in heal with regen offset that.

The thing that surprises me the most here is that if Anet is going to make a spec that appeals to players primarily for theme (because I REALLY don't see this being appealing for performance in any game mode), then they certainly are assuming ALOT about the capabilities of players that choose classes based on that theme criteria. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

35 minutes ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

I mean, the one thing nobody had a problem with the was the health conversion. I don't think anyone had a problem with using that as the sustain, given the removal of the shroud health.

Did I miss something?

 

kitten

I scrolled through the feedback thread, no one actually complained about it. The closest I got was an off-handed message saying something on the line of "It did take me a bit longer to build up LF than I expected." But that was about it. I feel like they just nerfed it because they felt it was too strong.

[Arheundel.6451]

8 hours ago, Arannya.8324 said:

I mean with a statement like that, you just made it clear you cannot be taken seriously and are here just to throw in some bad arguments with no real substance. But it's good that people notice and I quite enjoyed the rest of the conversation on the topic.

Just look around you.......

LOOK AROUND YOU!

 

 

Claiming that everybody wrong on state of necro.....unreal

[Bale.3851]

@Arheundel.6451 I dont really get your argument with the PVP part. First of the whole tournament there is 1 necro or sometimes none for all games. In the last game there are 3 in 1 team for the NA Tournament. Not dening necro isnt good in spvp but so are other meta classes. So whats your point? Do you want to tell us to nerf every meta class / change the meta? Then im in the boat. But just telling us "look there are 3 necros played in 1 game they are op" is a little bit laughable. BTW the video is 4 month old and scourge got nerfed in spvp/wvw leaving the blood support build as medicore and making core necro the choice number 1 in spvp. And you could just told us "minion mancer is a joke of a class" and i would agree. Some specc are ridicoulus in certain situations. Like imob beast or renegade in wvw or how its already mandatory to bring a hfb in every fractal t4/cm.

 

This leads to point number 2. What has this discussion to do with harbringer? When scourge is good harbringer cant? Why not make both classes good. There is no argument to add more viraity to the game. Just make both classes good. Im sick of the old meta and want something new. I also want vindicator or bladesworn etc. to be good. So that they are a real choice and not sume one trick pony are the solution to every situation. Playing against broken speccs is no fun i get that but right now with these changes harbringer has NOTHING to defend itself. So adding a deadbeat to the game is in no way healthy for it. I hope Anet scrap this whole idea or adds something new to the specc.

 

Personally i want to play a new exciting way which harbringer in the previous beta in somekind delivered. While doing 2 much dps in PVE (like many classes / bladesworn / specter) the numbers will be tuned. But its about the general playstyle. Thats what a beta is for. And if u played more than 2 seconds on harbringer in PVP, heck even in PVE, you would notice its brittle as kitten. SO it NEEDS sustain / damage mitigation in some ways to be PLAYABLE.   

[Nimon.7840]

19 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I don't like these changes because I'm already anticipating that damage will be too high which will mean nerfs down the road. It's going to end up like Berserker where it has multiple trade offs for very little gain. It's going to end up being a core Necro without the sponge and Reaper equivalent damage. 
Meaning, if you want to play something glassy and ranged, play core. If you want to play something glassy and melee, play Reaper. Because Harbinger won't offer anything the other two don't and using it will be at the expense of your durability.

The previous mechanics weren't good either because it was far more rewarding to play passively over being aggressive, and Shroud was better left unused (very much like Warrior many years ago when it was better to NOT spend your Adrenaline).

I'm not sure what needs to be done with it, but I don't think these changes are right either.

I just really hate the Blight mechanic...
I'd be fine with it if you gained proportionate damage based on health lost, eg. you lose 50% health? You gain 50% damage. But then it'd just be flat out busted. So I really think it's just not a good mechanic in general. The entire spec both how it was before and how it is now is literally just run away and play hyper defensive while you Blight stack yourself until you can hopefully 1 round burst someone. Basically making the strategy of the entire spec the same as Fresh Air Weaver, lol.

 

I don't see any meaningful damage buffs, only nerfs in those patch notes...

The problem: in PvE it already had way too high 45k) DMG numbers, but it didn't bring anything else than DPS to the group.

Reducing the numbers to 39-40 would be absolutely fine with current standards in mind.

[Nimon.7840]

13 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Please, finally (!) start to make yourself familiar with the necro class! Your statements to this topic are absurd every single time.

Harbinger is not high risk high reward. Look at the damage multipliers in the competitive modes! It has barely bruiser damage in glass gear and now lost its regeneration and mobility. It has nothing left but a few less blight stacks, that let you tank one single more hit.

The changes are 100% PvE oriented. ANet did not think one second about the competitive modes. All these elixier reworks do exclusively work out in PvE. In the other modes they are irrelevant - in contrast to the sustain and mobility nerfs, which have a huge impact.

 

While I agree with your first point, I don't agree with the last one.

I think that throwable elixirs add some spice to pvp harbinger.

 

But the most impactful part is definetly the removal of the regeneration as well as the nerf of the 1 defensive cool down harbinger has (the leap/evade that is btw locked behind shroud)

 

I absolutely don't know, where they got the idea of removing and nerfing those two things.

[Bale.3851]

I totally agree. The idea of are more mobile kity playstyle really was engaging. I would have loved to tinker around new builds in pvp. But this straight up deletion of health regain leaves you defenseless and with nearly no point in kiting when u cant regain health. Simply put bad design choice.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

What a sad series of events. Always befuddles me as to whether they've playtested any of these changes at all before locking them down. Hopefully there's another retune before setting these changes on us.

[KrHome.1920]

On 11/26/2021 at 3:29 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

nonsense

Posting 4 months old scourge videos offtopic into a harbinger balancing thread... You stopped even trying to throw in some arguments.

Please just go back to WvW, pick your dolyak stance longbow soulbeast and faceroll some necros. But this time don't come back as a salty madman after you lost one encounter against a necro that somehow managed to outskill your cheese build. Just get over it!

[Dadnir.5038]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:11 AM, Nimon.7840 said:

I don't see any meaningful damage buffs, only nerfs in those patch notes...

The problem: in PvE it already had way too high 45k) DMG numbers, but it didn't bring anything else than DPS to the group.

Reducing the numbers to 39-40 would be absolutely fine with current standards in mind.

Objectively, if they just wanted "numbers" to be fair they could have just reverted Soul barb to just affect strike damage. This would have dropped down harbinger to around 40k and reduced scourge to a 33k dps with support (Which would be "fair numbers"). The only one that would really lose out in this change is cReaper which isn't really popular anyway.

 

But! The topic is about Blight heal removal.

On one side a big part of the people commenting in this thread just ignore that Harbinger offer an aegis, generally more hard CC and an evade skill. Which is a lot of active defense compared to what core necro offer. People also forget that there is still blood bank and the high hit rate of harbinger skills are nice to proc vampiric effects.

What bother me most in regard of Harbinger's sustain isn't the loss of the LF to health mechanism as you can do without (even if the excuse given to remove it is "arguable"). What bother me is the loss of slow, the reduced range of the mobility skills and the increase of the elite elixir CD and I don't think that what they "gave" in exchange is worth those loss.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I'm really not sure I would count a single Aegis on a 60 second cooldown as an active defense, and I sure won't be doing so for a 90 second cooldown.