What is the point of Willbender? [PvP]

[Puck.3697]

Willbender just feels like herald but a budget version. It basically attempts a playstyle alike herald, but just naturally 5x worse at it. 

[Guirssane.7082]

I get the desire to make a roaming type class with willbender, but let's be honest it doesn't work at all in pvp. Maybe they should have made a dps with less niche of a design and make actually something useful instead of this thief roaming style gameplay that doesn't suit the guardian class.

[Puck.3697]

57 minutes ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

I get the desire to make a roaming type class with willbender, but let's be honest it doesn't work at all in pvp. Maybe they should have made a dps with less niche of a design and make actually something useful instead of this thief roaming style gameplay that doesn't suit the guardian class.

Problem is it's susposed to be alike herald but alot of core guardians damage comes from things such as symbols with backloaded damage

Willbender virtues, Weapon symbols and core guardians sustain would need some reworking and tweaking for willbender to excel. But if they did it imho it would be the best elite coming in EoD gameplay wise easily

It's a very enjoyable specc to play and feels great. It just doesn't have enough to be the role it's ment to be 

 

[Richter.9614]

Just gonna try to quote from memory what some other guy said in another thread a few months ago:

"WB is really good at getting first to mid, dealing no damage, and dying instantly"

[quaniesan.8497]

Guardians are given low health pool and relatively more modest offensive power (in comparison to Rev or War for example) because  Anet  took into account  guardian's team buff and passive regens.   

 

Now willbenders throw away team support, and passive aegis/regen  but  are not given  back the appropriate compensation ( for example, higher health pool etc...).  If they really believe in the trade-off theme,   the WB  should have at least +300 vital by default in the adept minor trait.   

 

WB's utility skills are quite frankly garbage.  It does not address the dire sustenance need aggressively, but rather give more mediocre damage options.   These utility skills should have things like  protection,  condi removal, and resolution.   The heal skill is dead on arrival, and currently bugged.   I'm surprised it wasn't addressed on the second round of beta even thoug the issue was brought up early. Or rather, I'm not surprised.  Shelter forever.

 

As it is, I'd say WB is dead on arrival  when EoD hits,  I just can't see the point of it  as compared to  core/DH/FB.  If you want the playstyle of  extreme mobility and busting down foes,  I would say  warriors, rev, and even rangers  are so much better at this.  A few months left, all we can do is hope. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by quaniesan.8497

[Aeolus.3615]

On 1/2/2022 at 8:35 PM, quaniesan.8497 said:

(snip)

Now willbenders throw away team support, and passive aegis/regen  but  are not given  back the appropriate compensation ( for example, higher health pool etc...).  If they really believe in the trade-off theme,   the WB  should have at least +300 vital by default in the adept minor trait.   

(snip)

This is very true, and u  need to builds somewhat squishy for damage while not  having a real trade off, well Anet with trade offs is just for some classes while some other have more "trade on's" then trade offs...

Theres no need for the +300 vit  trait redundancy  IMO.

Just make whenever Willbender F's are trigered they gain some self inner mechanic that balances out the class and ad something passive to lithen up their damage even a pve moa can kill the willbender ahahah.

Gain temporary health pool(oposite of EoD necro) when trigering its virtues but by not much  and something arround :

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Protective_Bond and https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Protective_Spirit  selfish based trait  added to Willbender Training 1st trait arround this 2 skills.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Kain Francois.4328]

I'm not a big PvPer, but my impression is that Willbender functions as a decap?

[aelska.4609]

Extra [very mild] blinks and "yOU WiLl bE reWArDEd fOr HiTTiNg thE eNeMY" mechanics is just not worth it to justify an entire traitline. Especially when these blinks come with a cast time, and have no synergy with existing traits.

I think Anet forgot several things:

• Guardian health pool sucks
• Guardian virtues suck
• Guardian utilities suck 
• Guardian weapons suck and are buggy
• Guardian mobility sucks [only 600 range from gs #3; and "on target only" sw #2, and JI]
• Guardian defense option sucks [3 blocks on focus #5, 1 aegis on shield #4 and mace #3, 2s of block on shelter]
• Guardian soft CC sucks [2s of immobilize on hammer #3 and scepter #3; no chill/weakness/cripple etc.]

Fortunately some traits are good to compensate more-or-less that suckiness, unlike what willbender proposes.

Edited January 8, 2022 by aelska.4609

[Aeolus.3615]

46 minutes ago, aelska.4609 said:

Extra [very mild] blinks and "yOU WiLl bE reWArDEd fOr HiTTiNg thE eNeMY" mechanics is just not worth it to justify an entire traitline. Especially when these blinks come with a cast time, and have no synergy with existing traits.

 

U can bend to others thats a unique feature ......

Your role is to make core and stronger burst/condi gimicks players feel good, give morale, while the spec bends its will in combat to others.

Out of joking with it... IDK what could Anet change in the class to make it worth use, utilities could be better way much better and the virtues should work like combat styles something like elementalist work with elemental swaps where it would change some properties of the offhand sword and willbender utilities, i think this way players could kind adapt the spec  to the situations has in ofense, bit of both, defense, this could be the foundation to the new virtued stances.

 

17 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

I'm not a big PvPer, but my impression is that Willbender functions as a decap?

More like a bail outter at minimal confrontation than a decaper.....

Edited January 8, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[otto.5684]

17 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

I'm not a big PvPer, but my impression is that Willbender functions as a decap?

Yes, it plays identical to power herald, but far less effective. I do not think it is absolutely terrible, however, it has a long way to go before being competitive. And some of the issues are not necessarily WB specific, but guardian overall issues.

@aelska.4609 in PvP guardian issues are mostly damage related. Survivability wise, it is okayish, if you know what you are doing. 

[Ragnar.4257]

On 1/8/2022 at 1:47 AM, Kain Francois.4328 said:

I'm not a big PvPer, but my impression is that Willbender functions as a decap?

In no way does it function as a decapper. This is because most of its mobility skills require a target. If there is a target to teleport to, then that means there's a target which can contest the cap. If there's no target to teleport to, then your mobility is no better than d/d Elementalist.

Decappers either need long-distance (900+) untargetted leaps/teleports, multiple sources of stealth, or multiple sources of knockback/launch/fear. WB has none of these things.

[Monarc.9726]

On 1/2/2022 at 3:35 PM, quaniesan.8497 said:

Now willbenders throw away team support, and passive aegis/regen  but  are not given  back the appropriate compensation ( for example, higher health pool etc...).  If they really believe in the trade-off theme,   the WB  should have at least +300 vital by default in the adept minor trait. 

This is what frustrates me in general about the development of the EoD elites. It seems like the devs didn’t properly take into account some of the core mechanics and original build design of each class.

I think part of the problem is the trade-off concept that seems to prioritize balance over fun. Without fun, balance doesn’t matter and people will lose interest. There are still many skills and traits that were totally broken from the last round of balance updates (like ridiculously long and unwarranted passive cooldowns for some traits) that seem to have been abandoned or forgotten about. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Monarc.9726

[Puck.3697]

On 1/17/2022 at 3:55 PM, Monarc.9726 said:

prioritize balance over fun. Without fun, balance doesn’t matter and people will lose interest

The problem here is simple. 

A overpowered build isn't fun to play against. Hence why people hate necro and hence why people proclaim its a reason people stopped playing spvp game mode. 

People don't enjoy playing against you if your builds overpowered. 

It's a 2 side thing. It needs to be fun to play and play against, and balance primarily is for the fun of those against you. 

[Monarc.9726]

On 1/18/2022 at 6:54 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

The problem here is simple. 

A overpowered build isn't fun to play against. Hence why people hate necro and hence why people proclaim its a reason people stopped playing spvp game mode. 

People don't enjoy playing against you if your builds overpowered. 

It's a 2 side thing. It needs to be fun to play and play against, and balance primarily is for the fun of those against you. 

I get that it's not fun to play against OP specs and agree completely, but my point wasn't that specs should be overpowered, it's that they should be fun. First and foremost. I don't see why they can't be fun and balanced at the same time. By fun, I mean interesting mechanics. I'm not seeing interesting mechanics with Willbender.

I also think Anet went too far with trade offs in the last round of balance updates. Some nerfs went too far, which is obvious to many players that found their favorite specs go from good to trash overnight. That's not balance and it's not fun.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Monarc.9726

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, Monarc.9726 said:

I get that it's not fun to play against OP specs and agree completely, but my point wasn't that specs should be overpowered, it's that they should be fun. First and foremost. I don't see why they can't be fun and balanced at the same time. By fun, I mean interesting mechanics. I'm not seeing interesting mechanics with Willbender.

I also think Anet went too far with trade offs in the last round of balance updates. Some nerfs went too far, which is obvious to many players that found their favorite specs go from good to trash overnight. That's not balance and it's not fun.

I'm not saying don't make things OP im saying change things more regular. 

But this games balance patch's is so slow overpowered things become so oppressive also things don't need to be overpowered to be fun

 Mechanics are fun, not power. Hence why I love weaver so much regardless of the fact of its considered non Meta and undertones in some content 

if something needs to be OP to be fun, the design is flawed I'm afraid 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[DeceiverX.8361]

If WB gets high damage with tons of mobility, then it just becomes a better thief.

If it gets bad damage then there's no reason to take it over core/DH.

If it gets reduced mobility but high damage then why not just play reaper or holo?  If it's better than those two, then there's no point in ever playing those.

ANet tried to blur the lines **too much** and tried making things too different with these new elite specs that run directly contrary to the entire design of the core specs.  A lot of professions are having the same issues - the specs are either going to be trash because they're just downright incompatible with core, or giga-busted because their numbers will be too strong on their own.

[Obtena.7952]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:55 AM, Monarc.9726 said:

This is what frustrates me in general about the development of the EoD elites. It seems like the devs didn’t properly take into account some of the core mechanics and original build design of each class.

This is an EXCELLENT observation because I think it's honest and true. The difference is that I think that the assumption that Anet has to design an espec around something OTHER than their base concept is not a good one. Personally, I don't think people should assume that every espec Anet creates is targetted to 'fit into' some gap that exists. This is the difference between understanding especs are about offering a different approach to playing the class vs. thinking they are 'role-based' gap fillers. 

Quote

I think part of the problem is the trade-off concept that seems to prioritize balance over fun. Without fun, balance doesn’t matter and people will lose interest. There are still many skills and traits that were totally broken from the last round of balance updates (like ridiculously long and unwarranted passive cooldowns for some traits) that seem to have been abandoned or forgotten about. 

Well, let's be clear ... what is 'fun' isn't something anyone can objectively state. Personally, I LIKE the idea of how mobile this will be, though it's impact is probably a lot less than it was in the past. Anecdotally, I can recall a time in the past where mobility was THE thing that held this class back in competitive modes.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

On 1/28/2022 at 6:57 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

If WB gets high damage with tons of mobility, then it just becomes a better thief.

If it gets bad damage then there's no reason to take it over core/DH.

If it gets reduced mobility but high damage then why not just play reaper or holo?  If it's better than those two, then there's no point in ever playing those.

ANet tried to blur the lines **too much** and tried making things too different with these new elite specs that run directly contrary to the entire design of the core specs.  A lot of professions are having the same issues - the specs are either going to be trash because they're just downright incompatible with core, or giga-busted because their numbers will be too strong on their own.

This isn't entirely true. As herald and thief don't have this problem. 

The reason people label WB as a thief is because currently it's too bad at its other aspects then using its mobility to currently decap points. 

However it is heavily suspected WB was susposed to fit more herald gameplay then thieves 

If it gets enough front loaded damage it will be find, however symbols and other problems currently make that a difficulty 

[quaniesan.8497]

is it me or the  , you know, " willbender"  get no changes at all?  look the same. All utility skill suck.  offhand sword still suck. Doesnt seem any changes.

[jpsssss.7530]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:03 AM, Exile.8160 said:

Whats funny is the reason for guards 11k healthpool is because they have good sustain but willbender has non of that yet they still have too sufer with the low healthpool.

Poor understanding of the class tbh.

I think Anet forgot about what most of the classes' design ethos when designing these specs. Willbender is a damage spec with little to no core guard synegy; what even is virtuoso and bladesworn; they removed shroud on harbinger, but forgot necro has 0 evades, invulns or blocks and garbage stability BECAUSE they have shroud, Condi thief just got WAAAAY better for absolutely no reason; untamed doesn't really feel good because pets are bad because of 1.5 braincell AI; mechanist is aight, but has negative synergy with anything that says "tool belt"; catalyst just feels like a mixture of weaver and tempest but it got all of the stuff that was removed because it was deemed to weak to see the light of day; and vindicator is just kinda there...

[KhittyKhat.2601]

Even a Harbinger is a more efficient "will bender" with skills like Vital Draw on top of their Fears and other CCs

[quaniesan.8497]

I'm actually starting to warm up to the "willbender", cough...cough..  Gosh... i get  weird reaction whenever I say that word, not as bad as in case of the virtuoso peeps doe .   

 

Playing with the WB is  like playing the regular content in hard mode due its bad damage and non-existence sustains.  I felt like it does help me to react to things more efficiently, managing movements more deftly  even against against trash mobs.   Things that are normally dull suddenly becomes much more challenging and exciting.  So it's actually not all bad.  If we are dealt a bad hand, might as well find way to enjoy it.   It's a training for me. You might just emerge as a super skilled players after playing the WB for a month.

Edited March 2, 2022 by quaniesan.8497

[Carnifex.3275]

@quaniesan.8497 People will get a little taste of how was it like to play a Thief for the last 5-6 years. WIllbender game style reminds me of it.. It's like playing in hardmode. The only thing you learn is DODGE IS EVERYTHING. Other than that.. yeah idk what you'll learn. I guess you'll start reading your opponents better too, maybe even roll every class to learn how to counter it, watch every little move, skill, boon they are using, memorize animations and so on. But it's not like you'll be able to do much about it anyway. Skill matters to an extent and it'll give you a little advantage but there are situations that you just can't overcome no matter the skill. And it's up to you to decide if it's worth the trouble and if you want to take on that challenge lol. Hell knows maybe by the time you'll get the hang of it they'll buff it up and make a decent spec with some real utilities and skills.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Dave.6819

[Kuya.6495]

4 hours ago, Dave.6819 said:

@quaniesan.8497 People will get a little taste of how was it like to play a Thief for the last 5-6 years. WIllbender game style reminds me of it.. It's like playing in hardmode. The only thing you learn is DODGE IS EVERYTHING. Other than that.. yeah idk what you'll learn. I guess you'll start reading your opponents better too, maybe even roll every class to learn how to counter it, watch every little move, skill, boon they are using, memorize animations and so on. But it's not like you'll be able to do much about it anyway. Skill matters to an extent and it'll give you a little advantage but there are situations that you just can't overcome no matter the skill. And it's up to you to decide if it's worth the trouble and if you want to take on that challenge lol. Hell knows maybe by the time you'll get the hang of it they'll buff it up and make a decent spec with some real utilities and skills.

That's the problem though.  On willbender in pvp you can't choose your engagements like a thf can. Since you lack the disengage invisible provides, you rely on your mobility and the mobility willbender has is only enough to outrun builds that have no swiftness, movement traits or ports of their own. That's my principle complaint about willbender in pvp. Not enough sustain to survive a bad match up and not enough disengage to outrun them either. So what can you do but die?

[KhittyKhat.2601]

4 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

That's the problem though.  On willbender in pvp you can't choose your engagements like a thf can. Since you lack the disengage invisible provides, you rely on your mobility and the mobility willbender has is only enough to outrun builds that have no swiftness, movement traits or ports of their own. That's my principle complaint about willbender in pvp. Not enough sustain to survive a bad match up and not enough disengage to outrun them either. So what can you do but die?

I've just played some Unranked matches and learned that you'll need to use dual SW + GS so your mobility to disengage are F1, F2, GS3, SW5, F3 with increasing cooldowns. Using Restorative Virtues trait, the Alacrity somewhat reduces the cooldown for everything so you can rotate out when pressured. The idea is to run in for group battles, dish damage with GS2, SW2, SW3 then retreat. Seems to work so far in Unranked play but haven't tested in Ranked enough times, only 2 matches.

 

In any case it is still very restrictive against classes that have many CCs (e.g. Necro) or are quick themselves (Engineers, even Mechanists) who can chase you down even with this setup. We can only hope the next balance patch improves things.