What's up with constant weapon swapping?

[Ashantara.8731]

On 12/8/2021 at 9:42 PM, Artemis.8034 said:

I love weapon swapping it makes this game so much more interesting being able to swap on the fly.

That's not really the point of weapon swapping, though. You usually switch to your second set while the first one is on cooldowns.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

My guy, there are 12 boons; 6 defensive boons dedicated to damage & Control mitigation (Aegis, Protection, Regeneration, Resistance, Resolution, Stability), 4 offensive boons dedicated to allowing more damage either through raw stats or coooldown & cast time reductions (Might, Quickness, Fury, Alacrity), and 2 mobility boons dedicated to enhancing movement speed and vigor regeneration (Vigor, Swiftness).  These are useful to have anywhere  and in any content. Not simply raids and t4 fractals.   There's also at least 8 unique class-based buffs that are useful to have.

Likewise, (As an example) people will notice the firebrand that does more than just poop out quickness but also applies aegis & stability intelligently to mitigate tons of damage and stop enemy CC.

My guy there are a tiny percentage of people who do raids and fractal CMs in this game and all the other content including strikes I beat. With friends. I wish  you understood that the vast majority of this player base will never touch content that requires that. For the five percent or whatever the low number is of you that raid, feel free to offer this general advice. The vast majority of people won't need to swap weapons.  

[Ellye.9123]

Bizarre the number of people who pretend to not understand what OP is talking about just to give him crap.

Weapon swapping in GW2 has nothing to do with "more options" or "adapting". It's a simple rotation increase to spam more skills while your first ones are on cooldown.

It looks weird as hell and breaks the class fantasy of most classes. It's not as bad as TESO in this regard, but it's still boring and ugly.

Also interesting that in TESO the community openly acknowledges that mandatory weapon swap as part of rotation is a controversial mechanic and that a considerable part of the playerbase doesn't enjoy it, but apparently here we all have to pretend that it's the best thing ever.

Weapon swap would be great if it was about adapting to situations. It isn't though, and my brain is melting from the number of replies pretending that it is.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ellye.9123

[Gibson.4036]

14 minutes ago, Ellye.9123 said:

 

Weapon swap would be great if it was about adapting to situations. It isn't though, and my brain is melting from the number of replies pretending that it is.

Probably because it depends on the profession and build people play.

On daredevil I stay on staff almost exclusively, switching to pistols if I want some breathing room. Same with mirage on axe, only swapping to staff to get some space.

On rev I’m constantly swapping both legends and weapons to get access to skills off cooldown. 
 

On holo, of course I can’t technically swap, and I’d love to camp forge all the time, but it’s designed to keep swapping in and out of forge.

It’s really not so hard and fast one way or the other.

[kharmin.7683]

34 minutes ago, Ellye.9123 said:

Bizarre the number of people who pretend to not understand what OP is talking about just to give him crap.

Weapon swapping in GW2 has nothing to do with "more options" or "adapting". It's a simple rotation increase to spam more skills while your first ones are on cooldown.

It looks weird as hell and breaks the class fantasy of most classes. It's not as bad as TESO in this regard, but it's still boring and ugly.

Also interesting that in TESO the community openly acknowledges that mandatory weapon swap as part of rotation is a controversial mechanic and that a considerable part of the playerbase doesn't enjoy it, but apparently here we all have to pretend that it's the best thing ever.

Weapon swap would be great if it was about adapting to situations. It isn't though, and my brain is melting from the number of replies pretending that it is.

Nope.  Not me at all.  I do swap for situations.  I main core ranger with LB and Sw/D which most people would probably agree that Sw/D is not optimal.  I enjoy both aspects of the class and the flexibility to stand at range or jump in with melee weapons and fight with my pet.  Doesn't break any fantasy for me and, in my opinion, seems rather ordinary for a character who wants those options.

But I'm just a filthy casual, so I must not know anything about it.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

2 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Incidentally, all of that can be done without swapping weapons because they don't come from weapon skills.

 

 

Mace 3 blocks &  gives aegis+protection, shield 4 gives aegis and protection, torch 5 applies burning and cleanses conditions, Axe symbol applies fury and is a good CC option when traited.  Scepter has immob and a symbol that gives might.  A FB that relies solely on their heal to provide aegis is going to have either crap quickness uptime or crap aegis use.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

My guy there are a tiny percentage of people who do raids and fractal CMs in this game and all the other content including strikes I beat. With friends. I wish  you understood that the vast majority of this player base will never touch content that requires that. For the five percent or whatever the low number is of you that raid, feel free to offer this general advice. The vast majority of people won't need to swap weapons.  

Boons are useful everywhere and there are far, far more boons & buffs than just alacrity and quickness.  Even the most casual of casuals who plays an hour a week can notice a difference between having boons and having no boons when they actually do any sort of combat.  Their numbers go from being big to being small and the damage they'd take goes up quite a bit. This is even more true when you look at anyone who gets their builds off of metabattle or even just makes their own hodgepodge builds (A majority of players) and picks or makes a DPS build that was optimized for group play rather than solo play  or not optimized at all.  It's where all the squishy elementalist memes came from when people would play that class full glass (No/minimal defensive stats) and end up dead more often than not.

Weapon swapping is something baked into the game.  It gives you, the player, interesting things to do for doing it most, if not all of the time by either giving boons to yourself or allies (Via trait or sigil), applying condition effects to enemies (via trait or sigil), or just giving you more options in combat thaan a weak auto attack.  There are a ton of builds out there, optimized or not, that can get away with using one weapon (Or even just one weapon/skill type) but a vast majority of them still do weapon swap to cause trait and sigil effects.

Lowest level play has no weapon swap and will end up in a situation where their current weapon choice gets hard countered by a mob's abilities be it in open world or in the story.  The level above that encourages just having an alt weapon swap for situations where using the primary and favored weapon wouldn't work (Think projectile  reflection on mobs and the favored weapon is a ranged weapon with projectiles or the mob does big melee damage so getting in close is a bad idea).  Mid tier play is using the weapon swap sigils and traits that have synergy with your build and developing a skill priority list dependent on the situation.  Top tier play is doing this while also having a rotation to fall back on.

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Boons are useful everywhere and there are far, far more boons & buffs than just alacrity and quickness.  Even the most casual of casuals who plays an hour a week can notice a difference between having boons and having no boons when they actually do any sort of combat.  Their numbers go from being big to being small and the damage they'd take goes up quite a bit. This is even more true when you look at anyone who gets their builds off of metabattle or even just makes their own hodgepodge builds (A majority of players) and picks or makes a DPS build that was optimized for group play rather than solo play  or not optimized at all.  It's where all the squishy elementalist memes came from when people would play that class full glass (No/minimal defensive stats) and end up dead more often than not.

Weapon swapping is something baked into the game.  It gives you, the player, interesting things to do for doing it most, if not all of the time by either giving boons to yourself or allies (Via trait or sigil), applying condition effects to enemies (via trait or sigil), or just giving you more options in combat thaan a weak auto attack.  There are a ton of builds out there, optimized or not, that can get away with using one weapon (Or even just one weapon/skill type) but a vast majority of them still do weapon swap to cause trait and sigil effects.

Lowest level play has no weapon swap and will end up in a situation where their current weapon choice gets hard countered by a mob's abilities be it in open world or in the story.  The level above that encourages just having an alt weapon swap for situations where using the primary and favored weapon wouldn't work (Think projectile  reflection on mobs and the favored weapon is a ranged weapon with projectiles or the mob does big melee damage so getting in close is a bad idea).  Mid tier play is using the weapon swap sigils and traits that have synergy with your build and developing a skill priority list dependent on the situation.  Top tier play is doing this while also having a rotation to fall back on.

Sure they're useful. I get boons from doing stuff very often, but that doesn't mean I always swap weapons. It's that simple.  If I did that regularly with the amount of time I play I'd lose hours to recovering.  It's nice to be young and healthy and telling people how important boons are. You know what's more important? My health.

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Mace 3 blocks &  gives aegis+protection, shield 4 gives aegis and protection, torch 5 applies burning and cleanses conditions, Axe symbol applies fury and is a good CC option when traited.  Scepter has immob and a symbol that gives might.  A FB that relies solely on their heal to provide aegis is going to have either crap quickness uptime or crap aegis use.

Nobody uses mace in pve. (Not on Snowcrows, Discrecize, Metabattle, and definitely not useful in Open World) The symbol is useless as it's only regen which is easily given. It's always axe/ Shield/staff  which is exactly one block and is on the main set anyways. So even if I were to use mace/shield I would have it without having to swap.

You should never have any trouble with quickness uptime, unless you choose Weighty Terms for more mantra usage (in that case Aegis wouldn't give quickness anyways), or are Condi Firebrand with barely any boon duration which doesn't take shield.

I mean of course I swap weapons. but poor quickness uptime has nothing to do with weapon swap.

Edited December 13, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Ellye.9123]

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Nope.  Not me at all.  I do swap for situations.  I main core ranger with LB and Sw/D which most people would probably agree that Sw/D is not optimal.  I enjoy both aspects of the class and the flexibility to stand at range or jump in with melee weapons and fight with my pet.  Doesn't break any fantasy for me and, in my opinion, seems rather ordinary for a character who wants those options.

But I'm just a filthy casual, so I must not know anything about it.

Sure, but you have to basically use your imagination to pretend that the game supports this playstyle, when in truth you'd be doing more damage by constantly swapping your weapons to use all your cooldowns, no matter if that means shooting your bow in melee range.

It would be a lot better if the game was actually designed to reward the playstyle you mentioned, instead on relying on players having to play pretend.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ellye.9123

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 minutes ago, Ellye.9123 said:

Sure, but you have to basically use your imagination to pretend that the game supports this playstyle, when in truth you'd be doing more damage by constantly swapping your weapons to use all your cooldowns, no matter if that means shooting your bow in melee range.

It would be a lot better if the game was actually designed to reward the playstyle you mentioned, instead on relying on players having to play pretend.

Being lazy is not a play style.

[Tails.9372]

3 hours ago, Ellye.9123 said:

Weapon swapping in GW2 has nothing to do with "more options" or "adapting". It's a simple rotation increase to spam more skills while your first ones are on cooldown.

It looks weird as hell and breaks the class fantasy of most classes.

That depends on the weapon set and where the main part of the damage actually comes from. For thief it actually is about more options but they seem to have no idea how to properly design for a "mana/MP"-esque system which leads to other issues.

This "weird as hell and breaks the class fantasy" is also not limited to weapon swapping. Deadeye for example lets you stay on rifle but they also make you jump around like a monkey if you want use the related tools to keep up your initiative in prolonged fights which doesn't just go against "class fantasy" but also sours the gameplay experience for many players to the point where they rather go for other options.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Ellye.9123 said:

Bizarre the number of people who pretend to not understand what OP is talking about just to give him crap.

Weapon swapping in GW2 has nothing to do with "more options" or "adapting". It's a simple rotation increase to spam more skills while your first ones are on cooldown.

It looks weird as hell and breaks the class fantasy of most classes. It's not as bad as TESO in this regard, but it's still boring and ugly.

Also interesting that in TESO the community openly acknowledges that mandatory weapon swap as part of rotation is a controversial mechanic and that a considerable part of the playerbase doesn't enjoy it, but apparently here we all have to pretend that it's the best thing ever.

Weapon swap would be great if it was about adapting to situations. It isn't though, and my brain is melting from the number of replies pretending that it is.

You're just straight wrong about this. It obviously depends on the build.  Elementalist is an easy example of how you're wrong.  They have to swap, but nobody rotates into water to deal damage just because fire or air are on cooldown.  The whole design is about choosing the right swap when you need it.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Sure they're useful. I get boons from doing stuff very often, but that doesn't mean I always swap weapons. It's that simple.  If I did that regularly with the amount of time I play I'd lose hours to recovering.  It's nice to be young and healthy and telling people how important boons are. You know what's more important? My health.

Bruh.  How does hitting 1-5 on two weapons do anything to your health?  If it's a hand problem, there are literally ergonomic keyboards and mice built just for easing that pain and you can adjust keybindings to make it easier on your hands. (Source; me, I have hand problems I got things to relieve problems with my left hand.)  I'm also not talking about stupid high APM to achieve optimal uptimes and damage.

[Vayne.8563]

17 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Bruh.  How does hitting 1-5 on two weapons do anything to your health?  If it's a hand problem, there are literally ergonomic keyboards and mice built just for easing that pain and you can adjust keybindings to make it easier on your hands. (Source; me, I have hand problems I got things to relieve problems with my left hand.)  I'm also not talking about stupid high APM to achieve optimal uptimes and damage.

When you're 60 and you have bursitis and arthritis we'll talk. I play a lot, so I have to play as easily as possible. It really doesn't matter to me if you understand or you don't understand.

[Ashen.1347]

I dunno man. In all of my thousands of hours of gameplay, I don't recall ever being forced to swap weapons. You can keep camping your greatsword on a dragonhunter. We'll all laugh at your dps, but nobody would be forcing you to play optimally 🙂  There are also plenty of builds that don't require weapon swapping at all to be effective (Scourge, condi Soulbeast, Herald, Renegade, etc), but from the tone of your post, I guess you just wanted something to cry about.

[Ellye.9123]

10 minutes ago, Ashen.1347 said:

We'll all laugh at your dps, but nobody would be forcing you to play optimally 🙂

Is it so hard to understand that when someone say "forced", they obviously don't mean literally forced?

Of course it isn't, but you all wouldn't have an argument if you weren't being obtuse.

From what you just said, you actually see exactly what OP is complaining about: for most builds, you have to weapon swap to deal decent damage. So you see know what OP means, and yet pretends that you don't. I just can't understand that attitude.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ellye.9123

[Danikat.8537]

15 hours ago, Macabre.3829 said:

 

High end content and maximizing your dps without having to weapon swap is what annoys me.
Currently I'm just playing a greatsword dragonhunter without swapping, but my dps goes up if I weapon swap, which is just annoying.

You said in your first post you don't want to swap because you see those professions as being associated with a specific weapon or style of play. In that case you've got two options:

1) Make two seperate builds, one optimised for the highest possible DPS and relying on weapon swapping and one with what you enjoy using. Use the first one only in high-end content where your sole priority is doing as much damage as possible and use the other one everywhere else where it doesn't matter. This might not even require different build/equipment templates if all you want to change is whether you swap.

2) Stick with what you want to do and accept that means slightly lower DPS and therefore slightly longer fights. If you're playing with a static group (and I assume you are for this to matter) you should talk to them about your decision, firstly just to make them aware and secondly because they may be able to find ways to help.

Technically you have another two options: stop playing that content or accept that maximum DPS is actually more important to you than your character's theme and stop worrying about it. But the first of those is not a good option (I assume by this point you're aware that all the high-end content in GW2 is optional and so you're doing it because you enjoy it) and the second is unnecessary when you can just use different builds in different areas.

[Naxos.2503]

I actually camp a single weapon with all my characters (All 12 of them, and I have the 9 classes included) in most content. I can safely say that camping a single weapon for fighting is possible on all of them, provided you : 1) Play efficiently : Combo your weapon skills with your utility skills to end fights quickly, and build up your stronger attacks through incrementaly buffing yourself with traits and skills. 2) Mind your cooldowns : Bridge your weapon skills cooldown through non skill related actions, such as dodging (some classes deal damage from it) or the F skills (class mechanics). Some classes have it easier than others, engineer being the biggest winner on that front with toolbelt, but all of them can do so. 

I dont raid much or at all, so obviously I cant speak for that level of content. I found that my engineer could contend with the content, even if inefficiently, it is however rather taxing, as the micro required is often beyond my capacity.

The above setup isn't due to laziness by any means, but due to my dyspraxia. I prefer to rely on what I can immediately reach with left hand (weapon skills) and click with my mouse on the utility skills. I rarely weapon switch as a routine, instead I consciously switch when my weapon is not adapted to the encounter (shield to block, range to hit safely, CC for breakbar). Most of the builds I play are variant of power or condi builds for all classes, with a couple of exceptions that aren't necessarily worthy of notice for this topic.

The point is : Yes, you absolutely can stick to one weapon for the very large majority of content in the game, no you're not punished if you do not do so (except in raids where rotation has to be optimal), yes you can still have a good time of it, no it shouldn't be changed (because you can pretty much still do it or not if it's your preference, provided you actually try to do so).

Edited December 13, 2021 by Naxos.2503

[kharmin.7683]

8 hours ago, Ellye.9123 said:

Sure, but you have to basically use your imagination to pretend that the game supports this playstyle, when in truth you'd be doing more damage by constantly swapping your weapons to use all your cooldowns, no matter if that means shooting your bow in melee range.

It would be a lot better if the game was actually designed to reward the playstyle you mentioned, instead on relying on players having to play pretend.

No, I am a casual player who doesn't care about optimal builds or rotations or engages in high-end content like fractals and raids.  Just because my play style suits me doesn't mean that the game doesn't support it, especially in a game that is advertised for being able to play how you want. 

I don't have to pretend anything or use my imagination when I'm engaged with content in GW2.  The game is very much designed to reward my particular play style.  If I didn't find it rewarding, then I wouldn't play it.

You don't like weapon swapping?  Cool  Then don't do it.

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 hours ago, Ellye.9123 said:

 

You're just being one of those annoying "AKTHUALLY not ALL of them are like that..."  pedants.

Okay.  How many examples of you being wrong do you need then?  Thief with shortbow?  Staff mirage?  Pretty much any build played outside of PvE?

[AliamRationem.5172]

7 hours ago, Ellye.9123 said:

Is it so hard to understand that when someone say "forced", they obviously don't mean literally forced?

Of course it isn't, but you all wouldn't have an argument if you weren't being obtuse.

From what you just said, you actually see exactly what OP is complaining about: for most builds, you have to weapon swap to deal decent damage. So you see know what OP means, and yet pretends that you don't. I just can't understand that attitude.

True.  But so what?  Damage isn't the end all of every build in every mode and builds exist that don't require a swap.

If we're being honest, players who are overwhelmed by having more than 5 buttons to press and/or are more concerned with the concept than performance aren't worried about their dps anyway.  So what is the problem? Just resign yourself to being a potato and play however you want.  This isn't a problem with the design.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I wanted to add that I understand the complaint and I am not unsympathetic.  In fact, I come up with builds for that! 🙂

This one is 3.5 years old and needs a little updating, but the basic concept is even stronger today.  No utilities, no weapon swap, benefits from not spamming F skills, and almost all of your damage comes from auto attack.

 Check it out. I just stand in fire dodging and auto attacking and everything dies (even a bounty champ!)!  Here's a newer video from a year and a half ago using green gear while fighting an HoT champ.

Can you push two buttons?  Then you can play this build.

Here's a comment from my thread by a player who has a health condition but is using one of the builds I shared for condi weaver.  He just camps fire, but because the utilities are so strong in that attunement and the passive defense stats are so good, he's able to be successful with it to his own standard of play.

I recognize that this is not the answer for everyone, but in fact builds exist for every class for players who for whatever reason can't or don't wish to deal with weapon swapping and/or complexity in general.  It isn't going to be optimal, but like the player in the comment link, not everyone shares that requirement.  Many just want to play through open world/story content without getting murdered every which way and without playing Chopin's etude op 10. no. 4.  There are builds for that.

Unfortunately, concept players like the OP who want to use a specific weapon with their class regardless of its suitability to the task will be disappointed in these solutions, but in answer to the OP's question (Do we really think it's a good idea?):  Yes.  It's a design that comes with consequences, but it's the design we have and I am overall happy with the results.  Further, I think the game provides enough flexibility to suit most players.

Also, check out https://metabattle.com/wiki/Open_World.  The open world section offers builds that are often easier to play and designed for solo survival.  I wouldn't take it as gospel, but it's not a bad place to get some ideas on how to adapt your build to fit your concept without completely gimping yourself.

Edited December 13, 2021 by AliamRationem.5172

[Ashen.1347]

15 hours ago, Ellye.9123 said:

Is it so hard to understand that when someone say "forced", they obviously don't mean literally forced?

Oh shoot, sorry. I forgot people don't actually mean what they say! Such a rookie mistake 😉

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

19 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

When you're 60 and you have bursitis and arthritis we'll talk. I play a lot, so I have to play as easily as possible. It really doesn't matter to me if you understand or you don't understand.

 

19 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

If it's a hand problem, there are literally ergonomic keyboards and mice built just for easing that pain and you can adjust keybindings to make it easier on your hands.

I'll also add that there's a plethora of programs out there that can also function as replacements for a mouse or keyboard and, with enough tinkering and set up, are just as, if not better than either.  I know this because my mother has those same problems you listed and I've set up a few things to help her browse the internet like she used to.
 

  

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I wanted to add that I understand the complaint and I am not unsympathetic.  In fact, I come up with builds for that! 🙂

This one is 3.5 years old and needs a little updating, but the basic concept is even stronger today.  No utilities, no weapon swap, benefits from not spamming F skills, and almost all of your damage comes from auto attack.

 Check it out. I just stand in fire dodging and auto attacking and everything dies (even a bounty champ!)!  Here's a newer video from a year and a half ago using green gear while fighting an HoT champ.

Can you push two buttons?  Then you can play this build.

Here's a comment from my thread by a player who has a health condition but is using one of the builds I shared for condi weaver.  He just camps fire, but because the utilities are so strong in that attunement and the passive defense stats are so good, he's able to be successful with it to his own standard of play.

I recognize that this is not the answer for everyone, but in fact builds exist for every class for players who for whatever reason can't or don't wish to deal with weapon swapping and/or complexity in general.  It isn't going to be optimal, but like the player in the comment link, not everyone shares that requirement.  Many just want to play through open world/story content without getting murdered every which way and without playing Chopin's etude op 10. no. 4.  There are builds for that.

Unfortunately, concept players like the OP who want to use a specific weapon with their class regardless of its suitability to the task will be disappointed in these solutions, but in answer to the OP's question (Do we really think it's a good idea?):  Yes.  It's a design that comes with consequences, but it's the design we have and I am overall happy with the results.  Further, I think the game provides enough flexibility to suit most players.

Also, check out https://metabattle.com/wiki/Open_World.  The open world section offers builds that are often easier to play and designed for solo survival.  I wouldn't take it as gospel, but it's not a bad place to get some ideas on how to adapt your build to fit your concept without completely gimping yourself.

This is a good post.

To make what you said shorter; there's a way to do it,  you just have to build around that limitation and accept that playing with only one weapon type is bound to make certain fights more difficult.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406