Condi necro needs a nerf. Or condi needs to be looked at in PvP.

[Morwath.9817]

20 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't disagree with the fact that it is poor design, yet I don't think it's likely for the devs to change it for core and reaper after close to a decade of the game being released.

Well, they re-designed conditions (stacking etc) and some boons after years, so we can hope they are able to move forward 😉 

[Axl.8924]

4 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

They should aim to make Tempest viable support (as Guardian), Catalyst as team fight damage dealer and Weaver is pretty okay as side node spec, however that doesn't mean Weaver couldn't profit a bit from making Ele core trait lines better.

Edit: Tempest needs mostly group stability.

They should give something unique to tempest because in my opinion why take tempest if guardian already covers quickness and other stuff? Remember how scourge became desired after they got buffed in barrier spam and how useful rezzing? well tempest needs something that makes them stand out and excell at that in my opinion can do since both herald and firebrand cover the buffs really well and chrono some others.

I agree with the stuff.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Spellhunter.9675]

Give tempest more stab, so I can spam boon corrupt more xD

[Genesis.5169]

4 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

They should give something unique to tempest because in my opinion why take tempest if guardian already covers quickness and other stuff? Remember how scourge became desired after they got buffed in barrier spam and how useful rezzing? well tempest needs something that makes them stand out and excell at that in my opinion can do since both herald and firebrand cover the buffs really well and chrono some others.

I agree with the stuff.

They do, they have respectable dps and have extremely high healing output. Of all the supports between druid/gaurdian/scourge tempest by far deals the most aoe and single target damage with a decent amount of conditions damaging and non damaging, they have a great signet res and might have the most Team wide condi clears in the game.

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

They do, they have respectable dps and have extremely high healing output. Of all the supports between druid/gaurdian/scourge tempest by far deals the most aoe and single target damage with a decent amount of conditions damaging and non damaging, they have a great signet res and might have the most Team wide condi clears in the game.

True but what it offers in buff is important too  i'd like to see tempest being able to choose between being a massive buffer or healer choice and able to be wanted and to do that it needs to be competitive

 

[greedywholesome.9081]

I don't like necros but even I will stand against what this OP is asking. 

 

The advantage of core necromancer is its sustain and ability to convert boons to conditions. 

 

Leave necro alone. The more these ppl ask for nerfs, the more unfulfilling and less diverse PvP will become. 

 

Can't you learn its counters? Necros have counters. Learn that for crying out loud. 

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

I don't like necros but even I will stand against what this OP is asking. 

 

The advantage of core necromancer is its sustain and ability to convert boons to conditions. 

 

Leave necro alone. The more these ppl ask for nerfs, the more unfulfilling and less diverse PvP will become. 

 

Can't you learn its counters? Necros have counters. Learn that for crying out loud. 

The counters were all nerfed/deleted because Necro asked for nerf, making a more unfulfiling and less diverse PvP...guess it's out turn to ask for nerfs now

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 minute ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The counters were all nerfed/deleted because Necro asked for nerf, making a more unfulfiling and less diverse PvP...guess it's out turn to ask for nerfs now

eye for an eye leaves entire world blind.
small price to pay for a necro nerf IMO, DO IT

[greedywholesome.9081]

13 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

The counters were all nerfed/deleted because Necro asked for nerf, making a more unfulfiling and less diverse PvP...guess it's out turn to ask for nerfs now

 

Yeah...it's an entry level class yet played in some of the highest tiers of competition. I don't enjoy playing it at all but the ROI for someone who is starting out in PvP is rather high and in way, contributes to the population even if it's slight. Warriors absolutely need a re-do of traits so does mesmer and elementalist. To counter necro, I go on ranger. What's interesting about rangers is that they somehow thrive with versatile builds. At best, I'm mediocre but it's enough to disrupt a necro. This thread has amazing rangers. 

 

The developers believe they need a "champion" or "favored" class to attract casual gamers. I don't agree with that philosophy. 

 

Anyway, I sometimes browse through the necro sub forum for entertainment. I'm tempted to contribute and offer pragmatic analysis but end up bypassing because the message will never get through anyway. 

[Vancho.8750]

10 hours ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

 

Yeah...it's an entry level class yet played in some of the highest tiers of competition. I don't enjoy playing it at all but the ROI for someone who is starting out in PvP is rather high and in way, contributes to the population even if it's slight. Warriors absolutely need a re-do of traits so does mesmer and elementalist. To counter necro, I go on ranger. What's interesting about rangers is that they somehow thrive with versatile builds. At best, I'm mediocre but it's enough to disrupt a necro. This thread has amazing rangers. 

 

The developers believe they need a "champion" or "favored" class to attract casual gamers. I don't agree with that philosophy. 

 

Anyway, I sometimes browse through the necro sub forum for entertainment. I'm tempted to contribute and offer pragmatic analysis but end up bypassing because the message will never get through anyway. 

The entry level professions are not bad idea, the problem is that it got kittened over by balancing. 
You had the magic user Necro, the soldier Warrior and the adventurer Ranger. Each had their area of effectiveness. Warrior slumped, Ranger could take its spot but also doing the ranger things, and Necro stayed at its level because Arenanet put allot of effort in Necro to be viable in PVE, which trickled down to pvp with allot of trait and skill reworks.
And now we have Necro being versatile profession, Ranger has huge pile in its toolbox and it didn't stay in its lane and took over warrior but lost its original intended spot to other professions, and warrior can't do its purpose cause it is subpar comparatively to everything else cause it still relies on the stat stick design.

So the entry level is only necro, and some self driving ranger builds. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Vancho.8750

[Morwath.9817]

31 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The entry level professions are not bad idea, the problem is that it got kittened over by balancing. 
You had the magic user Necro, the soldier Warrior and the adventurer Ranger. Each had their area of effectiveness. Warrior slumped, Ranger could take its spot but also doing the ranger things, and Necro stayed at its level because Arenanet put allot of effort in Necro to be viable in PVE, which trickled down to pvp with allot of trait and skill reworks.
And now we have Necro being versatile profession, Ranger has huge pile in its toolbox and it didn't stay in its lane and took over warrior but lost its original intended spot to other professions, and warrior can't do its purpose cause it is subpar comparatively to everything else cause it still relies on the stat stick design.

So the entry level is only necro, and some self driving ranger builds. 

 

Necro viable in PvE? 

You mean Scrouge? I don't think people want non-Scrouge Necros anywhere in PvE. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Vancho.8750]

Just now, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Necro viable in PvE? 

You mean Scrouge? I don't think people want non-Scrouge Necros anywhere. 

Pretty sure Reaper is the ultimate Pug Hero DPS, not great at speedruns since being able to selfbuff and sustain leaves behind when the group has good support but if things are spotty Reaper does not lose DPS. 

[greedywholesome.9081]

19 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The entry level professions are not bad idea, the problem is that it got kittened over by balancing. 
You had the magic user Necro, the soldier Warrior and the adventurer Ranger. Each had their area of effectiveness. Warrior slumped, Ranger could take its spot but also doing the ranger things, and Necro stayed at its level because Arenanet put allot of effort in Necro to be viable in PVE, which trickled down to pvp with allot of trait and skill reworks.
And now we have Necro being versatile profession, Ranger has huge pile in its toolbox and it didn't stay in its lane and took over warrior but lost its original intended spot to other professions, and warrior can't do its purpose cause it is subpar comparatively to everything else cause it still relies on the stat stick design.

So the entry level is only necro, and some self driving ranger builds. 

 

I've been vocal about buffing the warrior class. There's this one good warrior in NA a long time ago named Tarcis who inspired me to try it out. The mechanics may seem simple on paper but landing skills were quite a challenge. 

 

In regards to the ranger, though it's versatile, I only log on to it in pvp when there are multiple necros on the other team or if there's a minion mancer. Core necro, I can deal with on elementalist or mesmer, no issue. I don't main ranger and it also took me by surprise the amount of viable builds for it. 

[Vancho.8750]

2 minutes ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

 

I've been vocal about buffing the warrior class. There's this one good warrior in NA a long time ago named Tarcis who inspired me to try it out. The mechanics may seem simple on paper but landing skills were quite a challenge. 

 

In regards to the ranger, though it's versatile, I only log on to it in pvp when there are multiple necros on the other team or if there's a minion mancer. Core necro, I can deal with on elementalist or mesmer, no issue. I don't main ranger and it also took me by surprise the amount of viable builds for it. 

The axe taunt one works amazing vs minion mancer, also trapper variations works . Ranger skills and traits work and do not have that many dead ones, my gripe is with Druid that works but not like one would expect since the main mechanic is not the thing that makes it work but the Imob spam. I also do not like how they made Soulbeast better warrior than warrior with some reworks and buffs in PoF.

[pcgamefreak.5208]

How in the world does condi Necro need to be "nerfed" (even tho it has already)?  Condi Necro is the weakest class in the game.  Conditions do not do large sums of damage because other non Necro classes have so much bullet-proofing, DOTs only stay in the hundreds and most players have high amounts of vit and toughness to go along with the bullet-proofing.  Conditions are just removed by most classes or reduced so if this is fact and it is....  How can a condi Necro win a one on one match if conditions are the main thing the condi fights with?

 

Necros are not very mobile at all...unless you add sigils or what ever to get little short speed boosts but that takes away from a sigil or what ever that could aid in combat or staying alive.  Necro abilities have too much cast time as well...like "chill to the bone."  High cast time means time you're getting hit by the other player and that's time you don't have to spare.

 

Necros can't break free from roots, stuns, etc all that well and the worst part about it is... If you do manage to get free from a root, stun, ect...you usually get hit with something else that stops your movement because other classes are OP in that way.

 

Necros life force does not go back up out of combat so if you are lucky enough to win one battle with such a pathetic conditional damage tickage, you're dead if somebody else jumps from the shadows while you have no life force.  There's no reason why the "Devs" can't allow a Necro's life force to go back up while out of combat.  Other classes really don't have this kind of a problem, that's a Necro thing.

 

Necro abilities cooldowns are too large.  The better things you can add to your action bar for one on one survival, becomes useless because other classes can just go immune or bullet-proof in some other way and you will not get the benefit of an ability and then it's stuck on almost a minute cooldown or over a minute.  That is not helpful at all in PvP/WvW.

 

Players really need to stop asking the "Devs" to make the weakest class in the game even weaker because that's not going to balance PvP.  So you'll be happy just killing all Necros, huh?

 

Phft!  I'd rather leave the game when Necros become unplayable at all and they're almost there.

 

If the "Devs" want to fix anything, they can start with "nerfing" all the bullet-proofing abilities other classes have and re-do the Necro mark damage.  There's no reason why any player touching a Mark can't take higher DOTs because they can always move out of the Mark or dodge it or bullet-proof against it.  So why not have Necro Mark DOTs deal 2K or higher damage while the player is touching and the moment they move away, the DOTs can reduce to the usual pathetic DOTs they are now....  That's totally fair because other classes have so much to avoid Mark damage or reduce it.  Increasing damage while touching it will only give a condi Necro a better chance to win because condis are not berzerkers...  Condis can't deal 10k+ damage just off weapon strikes alone like a berzerker can...or ranged players.

 

Rangers can root you for almost 10 seconds (roots do damage!) and drop a 40k rapid fire but I don't see anyone complaining about that.  Most Necros probably don't even have 40k health or barely.  If you want to compain about abilites....

 

Complain about all the immunity to all damage classes can do.  Complain about thieves staying invisible for as long as they like without taking any aoe damage (however they're doing that, along with the x-number of shadow-steps).  Complain about the guardian OP blocking and instant full heals.  Complain about the mesmer's illusions being OP, along with the long range super high DPS.  Complain about the "Engs" OP bullet-proofing.

 

I just gotta ask...  Why are Necro minions so useless in WvW?  Seriously....  No point in using those because they are basically one hit kills.  Just more useless abilities for the Necro in PvP/WvW.  What's up with all the Necro abilities that actually harm the Necro?  That is totally lame!  Might be fine in PvE but not in PvP!  If a Necro harm himself to drop a hit with an ability and another class just bullet-proof through it...  Guess what...  The Necro just helped the other player wipe them out.  Truly brain dead stuff....

 

So if you're failing to take down a condi Necro, you need to check your build because the problem is there.  You might have to put up a little fight against a berzerker Necro but condis are pure rabbit Necros...easy kills and the "Devs" obviously don't give a $^#^.

 

 

 

 

"The Crystal is back..."

 

[Eugchriss.2046]

18 minutes ago, Horace.3184 said:

....

lmao

[Morwath.9817]

39 minutes ago, Horace.3184 said:

stuff

 

No idea what kind of pills you got, but I want some.

[Sltrmhcaoou.2305]

Its not just core necro, its necro in general, all specs are kind off over the top right now.

[Koensol.5860]

14 hours ago, Horace.3184 said:

How in the world does condi Necro need to be "nerfed" (even tho it has already)?  Condi Necro is the weakest class in the game.  Conditions do not do large sums of damage because other non Necro classes have so much bullet-proofing, DOTs only stay in the hundreds and most players have high amounts of vit and toughness to go along with the bullet-proofing.  Conditions are just removed by most classes or reduced so if this is fact and it is....  How can a condi Necro win a one on one match if conditions are the main thing the condi fights with?

 

Necros are not very mobile at all...unless you add sigils or what ever to get little short speed boosts but that takes away from a sigil or what ever that could aid in combat or staying alive.  Necro abilities have too much cast time as well...like "chill to the bone."  High cast time means time you're getting hit by the other player and that's time you don't have to spare.

 

Necros can't break free from roots, stuns, etc all that well and the worst part about it is... If you do manage to get free from a root, stun, ect...you usually get hit with something else that stops your movement because other classes are OP in that way.

 

Necros life force does not go back up out of combat so if you are lucky enough to win one battle with such a pathetic conditional damage tickage, you're dead if somebody else jumps from the shadows while you have no life force.  There's no reason why the "Devs" can't allow a Necro's life force to go back up while out of combat.  Other classes really don't have this kind of a problem, that's a Necro thing.

 

Necro abilities cooldowns are too large.  The better things you can add to your action bar for one on one survival, becomes useless because other classes can just go immune or bullet-proof in some other way and you will not get the benefit of an ability and then it's stuck on almost a minute cooldown or over a minute.  That is not helpful at all in PvP/WvW.

 

Players really need to stop asking the "Devs" to make the weakest class in the game even weaker because that's not going to balance PvP.  So you'll be happy just killing all Necros, huh?

 

Phft!  I'd rather leave the game when Necros become unplayable at all and they're almost there.

 

If the "Devs" want to fix anything, they can start with "nerfing" all the bullet-proofing abilities other classes have and re-do the Necro mark damage.  There's no reason why any player touching a Mark can't take higher DOTs because they can always move out of the Mark or dodge it or bullet-proof against it.  So why not have Necro Mark DOTs deal 2K or higher damage while the player is touching and the moment they move away, the DOTs can reduce to the usual pathetic DOTs they are now....  That's totally fair because other classes have so much to avoid Mark damage or reduce it.  Increasing damage while touching it will only give a condi Necro a better chance to win because condis are not berzerkers...  Condis can't deal 10k+ damage just off weapon strikes alone like a berzerker can...or ranged players.

 

Rangers can root you for almost 10 seconds (roots do damage!) and drop a 40k rapid fire but I don't see anyone complaining about that.  Most Necros probably don't even have 40k health or barely.  If you want to compain about abilites....

 

Complain about all the immunity to all damage classes can do.  Complain about thieves staying invisible for as long as they like without taking any aoe damage (however they're doing that, along with the x-number of shadow-steps).  Complain about the guardian OP blocking and instant full heals.  Complain about the mesmer's illusions being OP, along with the long range super high DPS.  Complain about the "Engs" OP bullet-proofing.

 

I just gotta ask...  Why are Necro minions so useless in WvW?  Seriously....  No point in using those because they are basically one hit kills.  Just more useless abilities for the Necro in PvP/WvW.  What's up with all the Necro abilities that actually harm the Necro?  That is totally lame!  Might be fine in PvE but not in PvP!  If a Necro harm himself to drop a hit with an ability and another class just bullet-proof through it...  Guess what...  The Necro just helped the other player wipe them out.  Truly brain dead stuff....

 

So if you're failing to take down a condi Necro, you need to check your build because the problem is there.  You might have to put up a little fight against a berzerker Necro but condis are pure rabbit Necros...easy kills and the "Devs" obviously don't give a $^#^.

 

 

 

 

"The Crystal is back..."

 

L2P core necro if you can't do dmg with it lmao. The delusion is truly unreal here..

[felix.2386]

condi is a joke and should be removed.

power is meta because you can't completely ignore it by hard counter build.

condi is just a joke noob cheese build that's easy to play and can be easily counter builded and ignored but kill people who didn't build in condi cleanse..which is basically useless and will reduce fun from pvp and toxic and introduce minimum skill play compared to power.

[Sltrmhcaoou.2305]

9 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

condi is a joke and should be removed.

power is meta because you can't completely ignore it by hard counter build.

condi is just a joke noob cheese build that's easy to play and can be easily counter builded and ignored but kill people who didn't build in condi cleanse..which is basically useless and will reduce fun from pvp and toxic and introduce minimum skill play compared to power.

condition builds is what keeps people from going full toughness perma prot builds and taking 0 damage
something as simple as changing berserker amulet to demo can make you take 20-25% less damage, when you include runes, traits, prot, other passive damage reduction, weakness you can create builds more or less invulnerable to power damage too.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

My take on this is they integrated too many games into one game or you can say too many visions of the game which overlap.

 

Underneath GW2 has still GW1 has  to simplify it a bit much "a paper scissors" game as main theme. Basically different mechanics counter each other and it is really hard to compensate if you have the wrong build for PvP they eased it a lot.

 

GW2 comes with other hand as an brawler game with an avoid-attack theme which also focus heavily on AoE.

 

This already comes with a lot of problems the whole "a paper scissors"  stuff already seems too OP from times to times like make yourself invulnerable or skills which can't be blocked or can't be dodged. There are also things which are really outdated e.g how stealth works in this game.

 

So now to the condis like some mentioned originally they weren't like this they could stack but were capped so like 'every' mmo until recently I know has condis/dots as purely as minor addition to dmg . Actually I also know MMOs who tried to copy Gw2 condi systems and after live testing scrapped it.

 

Now the exception since the lack of new content and horrible balance in all game modes I tried a new game Warframe . I know this games has a lot of problems(UI design horrible , super grindy , p2w, story start only after 100h of gameplay) but well I'm  bored.

 

This game has PvP but it is dead because there is no focus on it and the p2w part(4/10) . On the other hand there is an insane amount of builds something like 20x more then gw1 at least. The condi(status) system works mainly through the passive modifier(mods) which you can freely change depending on the weapon. So either they let them inspire each other or devs wandered around between DE and Arena.NET because also some Warframe names(and to some degree skills) showed up as elite specs here e.g Mirage after they released it first.

 

What I also add is that Warframe is an high speed action game which also resampled the direction after PoF(also HoT to some degree)

 

What I conclude is :

A) Main way to make dmg over condis = not  absolutely not good for PvP and actually not good to add it later for most games

B) There is too much shuffled into Gw2 it is actually at least 3 games in one in the fighting mechanic part alone.

C)The way Gw1 and Warframe gave freedom to the players is much better . They done away with it because they said it makes balancing harder . Yes because you need to balance the thing which cause the problem you can't fix it by repairing the foot when you have a problem on the arm you have to fix the problem . So the balance is way better and you don't have crippled builds because of this like here. Also the problem compound over time and things getting wilder and wilder.

 

 

[Kayberz.5346]

Condi the way its currently implemented is just fundamentally unbalanced for pvp.

 

It only requires 1 stat to boost its damage which allows them to add toughness or vitality to their build with zero tradeoff compared to power builds that need 3 stats to do comparable damage

Not only that but condis require you to use utilities with long cooldowns to counter for most classes, condi application is very passive and spamable for how much potential damage it can do, its not like power builds where you can just dodge/mitigate the heavy hitting attacks, you cant stop someone from applying condis to you for the most part, dodges are much less effective against condi builds because unlike power chip damage, small frequent condi applications have the potential to snowball and exponentially increase in damage. you have to time your limited cleanses for when the stacks become dangerous, with condi builds being able to stack more defensive stats they can typically outlast other builds until they run out of cleanses.

Necro is already inherently tanky by design, AND they have wide access to condi application (unlockable even), condi transfer, boon corruption, and a good amount of cleanses. They essentially have the ultimate package of kitten.

I find it hilarious that necro mains have the audacity to claim necro is balanced, yeah ok, that explains why its rare for there NOT to be at least 3-4 necros in every match, im sure its just a coincidence that necro is pretty much the only class that has multiple top tier meta builds in pvp with its core class and both elite specs at the same time.

Theres a reason why most bots use condi builds, it doesn't require careful timing, it can continue to inflict damage while spamming active defenses inbetween application, and they can facetank tons of damage due to how much stats they can put into vitality/toughness. A literal brainless AI running a script can play it with a higher rate of success than a lot of real players playing power builds. Thats not "balanced".

For a LONG time now the viability of builds in spvp is largely dependent on how well the build can deal with conditions while also doing other things. And "coincidentally" the 2 most prevalent classes in spvp are necro and guardian, 2 classes that have access to both a high amount of condi cleanses and condi application with good active defenses. Also the 2 most botted classes because playing them effectively literally doesn't require a brain.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Genesis.5169]

29 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Condi the way its currently implemented is just fundamentally unbalanced for pvp.

 

It only requires 1 stat to boost its damage which allows them to add toughness or vitality to their build with zero tradeoff compared to power builds that need 3 stats to do comparable damage

Not only that but condis require you to use utilities with long cooldowns to counter for most classes, condi application is very passive and spamable for how much potential damage it can do, its not like power builds where you can just dodge/mitigate the heavy hitting attacks, you cant stop someone from applying condis to you for the most part, dodges are much less effective against condi builds because unlike power chip damage, small frequent condi applications have the potential to snowball and exponentially increase in damage. you have to time your limited cleanses for when the stacks become dangerous, with condi builds being able to stack more defensive stats they can typically outlast other builds until they run out of cleanses.

Necro is already inherently tanky by design, AND they have wide access to condi application (unlockable even), condi transfer, boon corruption, and a good amount of cleanses. They essentially have the ultimate package of kitten.

I find it hilarious that necro mains have the audacity to claim necro is balanced, yeah ok, that explains why its rare for there NOT to be at least 3-4 necros in every match, im sure its just a coincidence that necro is pretty much the only class that has multiple top tier meta builds in pvp with its core class and both elite specs at the same time.

Theres a reason why most bots use condi builds, it doesn't require careful timing, it can continue to inflict damage while spamming active defenses inbetween application, and they can facetank tons of damage due to how much stats they can put into vitality/toughness. A literal brainless AI running a script can play it with a higher rate of success than a lot of real players playing power builds. Thats not "balanced".

There are no condition + toughness amulets except the one with only 500 condition damage. And all those things that work vs power damage work vs condition damage but you also have the option to mess up with condition damage and condi cleanse after the fact.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Kayberz.5346]

4 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

There are no condition + toughness amulets except the one with only 500 condition damage. And all those things that work vs power damage work vs condition damage but you also have the option to mess up with condition damage and condi cleanse after the fact.

You're forgetting there ARE runes with toughness that you can combine with amulets.

 

And even if you remove toughness from the equation thats still 1 stat for condi damage vs 3 for power damage, no matter how you cut it condi builds can build more tanky than power builds while still doing comparable or even greater damage

Edited December 14, 2021 by Kayberz.5346