What if the problem wasn't necromancer

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Oh, yes, you're quite right, my bad, Firebrand is obviously overpowered in PvP. That's why everyone stopped playing it 2 years ago and haven't touched it since.

These forums.

So you're still incapable of seeing that design of Scourge, Mirage, Firebrand and others is simply busted in terms of mechanics in the game.
These forums and their blindfolds. Only capable of seeing something if they get bonked in the face, but still ignoring the root cause of problems, disappointing to say the least.

[Ragnar.4257]

52 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

So you're still incapable of seeing that design of Scourge, Mirage, Firebrand and others is simply busted in terms of mechanics in the game.
These forums and their blindfolds. Only capable of seeing something if they get bonked in the face, but still ignoring the root cause of problems, disappointing to say the least.

From a design point, yes, FB is "busted", it's trying to do too much.

But the point I originally replied to is this:

"easily the most OP support class there is, even moreso on Firebrand due to the Tomes"

"busted design" is not the same thing as "most OP". Firebrand is just objectively not OP in its current iteration. This is what I was challenging; the claim that FB is currently the most OP support class, which, is just an absurd claim.

Don't argue against a point I didn't make. I choose my words very carefully, if I say it is not "overpowered" then I mean exactly that, I am not making any determination on its mechanical design.

If you are legitimately arguing that FB is not just a bloated design, but is actually currently overpowered, you're insane.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[Math.5123]

5 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

So you're still incapable of seeing that design of Scourge, Mirage, Firebrand and others is simply busted in terms of mechanics in the game.
These forums and their blindfolds. Only capable of seeing something if they get bonked in the face, but still ignoring the root cause of problems, disappointing to say the least.

Like Ragnar pointed out, bloated design =/= overpowered. 

With that mindset, 5 kit engi and ele would be considered the strongest classes in the game because of the sheer number of abilities and utility they bring. 

 

The numbers on the abilities matter. Like saying fb has access to every boon except for alac but failing to acknowledge that the boon duration is 1 second on many abilities. 

 

Firebrand is objectively underperforming in pvp. This is due to the nature of the class, if you buff the numbers the class becomes insane due to the amount of buttons it has to press. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 12/13/2021 at 10:09 AM, Kuya.6495 said:

Neg. The reason why there is so many necros is because we're in a burst meta and most of the bunkers and healers have been nerfed to hell.

???

You have that backwards. 

The reason there are so many necros is because we're in a bunker meta (note that necro is a bunker, and it is shaping the meta). A good portion of the damage was toned down to lay a foundation for a series of very carefully moderated buffs that then didn't happen. necro's survivability was not adjusted to compensate for this power dip, so now it is significantly more difficult to kill them, while they retain enough AOE pressure to continue controlling point presence (and enough damage pressure to force point closeouts through lich).

On 12/13/2021 at 1:11 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

its the low damage and everyone knows it. no more nerfs until anet fulfills their promise of balance patches ironing things out. which is never apparently, so stuck in hell we are.

^ This right here.

The original promise of returning meaningful damage to the classes that need it needs to be done first.  The megabalance isn't finished, but everyone is working on EoD. 

This isnt a problem solely with necro, though, and nerfing necro and core aren't the entire answer to the problem. There are a handful of other classes that can run bunker as well, and they will replace Necro/Guard if the balancing efforts only touch them.  Some power / condi spike classes need a couple of their toys back, or just enough sustain to make playing glass on those builds a suitable strategy.

The megabalance needs to be revisited, classes that aren't played need a tuning up, and a handful of builds need to be introduced that focus on spike damage to stress out the current bunkers. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Morwath.9817]

...but dudes, damage isn't too low. Quite opposite.

It's way higher than in GW1, you already don't have energy to gate your dps and skills hit harder as health% per cast, while you don't have Monks.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

16 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

...but dudes, damage isn't too low. Quite opposite.

It's way higher than in GW1, you already don't have energy to gate your dps and skills hit harder as health% per cast, while you don't have Monks.

This isn't Gw1, though. That context is irrelevant to this game.

For GW2 there are a handful of classes doing well under what they should in terms of damage, either due to the numbers themselves not being adequate for the effort needed to land the attack, or because the class that brings that damage is so brittle that it doesn't have the staying power to deliver it in the current meta. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Morwath.9817]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This isn't Gw1, though. That context is irrelevant to this game.

 

GW1 was a game designed around sPvP, unlike GW2, which just has sPvP as side mode.

Now if you look at TTK in GW1, it wasn't too fast, nor too slow. Now if you played lately 3v3 in GW2 at all, you would have noticed that things go down before timer in most matches, even if you got support Guardians on each team, because if you focus targets they just melt, damage is soo high.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

GW1 was a game designed around sPvP, unlike GW2, which just has sPvP as side mode.

Now if you look at TTK in GW1, it wasn't too fast, nor too slow. Now if you played lately 3v3 in GW2 at all, you would have noticed that things go down before timer in most matches, even if you got support Guardians on each team, because if you focus targets they just melt, damage is soo high.

 

That's just because of the removal of healing amulets in spvp.

If you go to wvw and do roaming, you'll see that with heal stat gear, no skill splits, pve sigil/rune options, and food/utility, there are many match ups in 1v1 roaming where it is actually impossible for either player to kill each other.

Things in this game are waaaay tankier than people give them credit for.

[Morwath.9817]

Just now, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That's just because of the removal of healing amulets in spvp.

If you go to wvw and do roaming, you'll see that with heal stat gear, no skill splits, pve sigil/rune options, and food/utility, there are many match ups in 1v1 roaming where it is actually impossible for either player to kill each other.

Things in this game are waaaay tankier than people give them credit for.

To be honest 1v1 isn't a reason I play team based game thats balanced around group vs group combat, so don't get me wrong, but I don't really care much about it (1v1), despite roaming myself as well on weekly basis on my Ele. If you can't kill guy, you just disengage, pretty easy.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

To be honest 1v1 isn't a reason I play team based game thats balanced around group vs group combat, so don't get me wrong, but I don't really care much about it (1v1), despite roaming myself as well on weekly basis on my Ele. If you can't kill guy, you just disengage, pretty easy.

I was just giving an example of the contrast between heaving heal stats and not having heal stats. Point being: If pvp had heal stats again, people would quickly begin complaining that there wasn't enough damage in the game.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Morwath.9817]

35 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Well you should care about it because it happens all of the time whether you try to avoid it or not, It's a very large part of both spvp and wvw.

It's not that big as you say imho. Tbh, for me in WvW it happens rarely and lately I've feeling that solo roaming is pretty dead. I've days when I find solo enemies willing to 1v1 at rate like 1-2 per hour and I get my WvW rewards maxed every week since I came back to the game.

 

In sPvP, even if 1v1 TTK would be slightly slower, it wouldn't mean much as its mostly about rotations so a) outnumbering enemies due to rotations, or b) forcing enemies for team fights and single target focusing.

Another thing is you don't need to kill enemies at all to decap...

 

Edit: Now, ask yourself what will happen to group fights if you make TTK shorter, if people already die pretty fast when focused? They will just explode and what people will do? They will replace Berserker builds with Marauder builds...

Edited December 14, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Exciton.8942]

1 hour ago, Morwath.9817 said:

To be honest 1v1 isn't a reason I play team based game thats balanced around group vs group combat, so don't get me wrong, but I don't really care much about it (1v1), despite roaming myself as well on weekly basis on my Ele. If you can't kill guy, you just disengage, pretty easy.

Well, if you get focused by more than 1 damage dealer, you should die fast.

The mechanics of the game gives individual player healing/invul/disengaging on a CD. If TTK is too long even with more than 1 damage dealer's firepower, we won't be able to kill anyone.

This is also the reason Anet has to remove all the tanky amulets.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Exciton.8942

[Grimjack.8130]

hmmm interesting theory, but maybe the problem is necro is the best or almost the best at every role in pvp right now

1v1s? it loses to certain 1v1ers, but not fast enough to matter and the necro will always be favored once rotations start coming in and out making 1v2s, 2v2s, or bigger fights

2v2s? see above

teamfights? the only good dps in the game right now are power classes, which necro loves shutting down by shroud procs, corrupting might into more weakness, or its top tier projectile destruction or blind spam

how about how supports are the best focus target right now? well dont worry necro peels for people better than anything else for the reasons above; corrupts, weakness, cpc/wod, but thats not even remotely it. things like unholy martyr, fear ring, chill, fear etc.

necro also destroys every roamer right now, drop a fear ring on a thief with no shadowstep and it can very easily die if your team jumps on it with you.

 

why would you ever play a core ranger who has to put in so much effort to win a 1v1 against a core necro, when every player knows as soon as the 2v2 happens; Core Ranger and Thief vs Core Necro and Thief that you're gonna lose the 2v2 no matter what. Now your 1v1 prowess doesn't matter, you're forced to go leave to a 5v5 or 4v4 that the Necro is better in, or you're forced to AFK on your home node or a Thief will instantly decap you, and dont worry you cant even 5v4 the teamfight and get kills to attempt to snowball because Necros peel for everyone too well and the Thief will be back matching numbers before the teamfight is even remotely decided.

 

Fun.

[Morwath.9817]

7 minutes ago, Exciton.8942 said:

Well, if you get focused by more than 1 damage dealer, you should die fast.

The mechanics of the game gives individual player healing/invul/disengaging on a CD. If TTK is too long even with more than 1 damage dealer's firepower, we won't be able to kill anyone.

This is also the reason Anet has to remove all the tanky amulets.

No, they don't have to remove amulets. Removing things don't bring balance or make playing experience better.

What actualy brings balance is... balancing either stat ratios on amulets themselves, coefficients on weapons, ablities and traits so they scale properly with said stats on amulets and so on... they already removed most amulets and did it helped? No. 

 

[greedywholesome.9081]

Regarding the OP's question - what if the problem wasn't necromancer. 

In a way, necromancer isn't the real problem, it's a just a conduit of poor decision making and unclear direction. Nerfing damage while also banishing support based amulets just seems so contradictory. Direction is choosing one over the other but with pvp, they took both. It's senseless. 

[pukish.5784]

Playing Necromancer and call others trash. This is trend since Feb patch.

At top level tier they do that and this 3v3 they laugh opposite team with two or three necros. Play Reaper, unblockable shout,use Lich and done. This game is trash and players are also trash. If you are enought clever then you don't play this game like others who left the game.

Edited December 15, 2021 by pukish.5784

[Spellhunter.9675]

11 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If you go to wvw and do roaming, you'll see that with heal stat gear, no skill splits, pve sigil/rune options, and food/utility, there are many match ups in 1v1 roaming where it is actually impossible for either player to kill each other.

Things in this game are waaaay tankier than people give them credit for.

Damage is so low every roamer build must have ability to run our of fight. Of course if you can't be killed you should run. Right, that's how it works.

[mortrialus.3062]

19 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

It's not that big as you say imho. Tbh, for me in WvW it happens rarely and lately I've feeling that solo roaming is pretty dead. I've days when I find solo enemies willing to 1v1 at rate like 1-2 per hour and I get my WvW rewards maxed every week since I came back to the game.

 

In sPvP, even if 1v1 TTK would be slightly slower, it wouldn't mean much as its mostly about rotations so a) outnumbering enemies due to rotations, or b) forcing enemies for team fights and single target focusing.

Another thing is you don't need to kill enemies at all to decap...

 

Edit: Now, ask yourself what will happen to group fights if you make TTK shorter, if people already die pretty fast when focused? They will just explode and what people will do? They will replace Berserker builds with Marauder builds...

1v1 has been part of GW2 SPvP since the very beginning.  It's one of the four core roles:  Roamer, Duelist, Support, Team Damage.  Builds that side node, get into 1v1 fights as well as surviving 1v2 as long as possible and preventing decaps are an established part of the game meta and you will lose the match if you have no one on your team to do that.  Now necromancer is both the best damage dealing profession in team fights and the best profession for 1vX on the side node. 

20 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

...but dudes, damage isn't too low. Quite opposite.

It's way higher than in GW1, you already don't have energy to gate your dps and skills hit harder as health% per cast, while you don't have Monks.

What is this nonsense? 

Damage is lower than it has ever been at any other point in this game's history even vanilla GW2. Vanilla GW2 FA eles very quickly snap out 20k bursts, thieves had 12-15k backstabs, warriors could drop a 6k damage hammer F1 and then immediately swap weapons into a 20k hundred blades.  It's lower than it's ever been.  And that's why necro has been absurdly dominant ever since the megabalance, the game's damage is far to low and shroud with it's innate 50% damage reduction was designed in an era where damage was way way higher than it is now.

[Morwath.9817]

14 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

1v1 has been part of GW2 SPvP since the very beginning.  It's one of the four core roles:  Roamer, Duelist, Support, Team Damage.  Builds that side node, get into 1v1 fights as well as surviving 1v2 as long as possible and preventing decaps are an established part of the game meta and you will lose the match if you have no one on your team to do that.  Now necromancer is both the best damage dealing profession in team fights and the best profession for 1vX on the side node. 

What is this nonsense? 

Damage is lower than it has ever been at any other point in this game's history even vanilla GW2. Vanilla GW2 FA eles very quickly snap out 20k bursts, thieves had 12-15k backstabs, warriors could drop a 6k damage hammer F1 and then immediately swap weapons into a 20k hundred blades.  It's lower than it's ever been.  And that's why necro has been absurdly dominant ever since the megabalance, the game's damage is far to low and shroud with it's innate 50% damage reduction was designed in an era where damage was way way higher than it is now.

 

Necro isn't "the best" 1v2 choice as it lacks stability, so its quite opposite. Extra health pool isn't worth much without blocks, evades and invuls in outnumbered situation (its different in group fights). His ability to kite is pretty limited outside of Flesh Wurm porting him to higher terrain and only if enemies can't follow with their own ports.

 

I guess you don't remember pre-Hot celestial meta, where each team had 3-4 celestial bunkers each. Game is in much better shape and form today with much shorter TTK than back then, especially when you take into account that all invul traits got kinda nuked with 300s CD.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

9 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Necro isn't "the best" 1v2 choice as it lacks stability, so its quite opposite. Extra health pool isn't worth much without blocks, evades and invuls in outnumbered situation (its different in group fights). His ability to kite is pretty limited outside of Flesh Wurm porting him to higher terrain and only if enemies can't follow with their own ports.

 

I guess you don't remember pre-Hot celestial meta, where each team had 3-4 celestial bunkers each. Game is in much better shape and form today with much shorter TTK than back then, especially when you take into account that all invul traits got kinda nuked with 300s CD.

I guess you don't remember the HoT days where DH, Rev, Warrior, and Thief could just delete you in an instant, and those are just the obvious offenders. Heck, even just before the mega patch, people died in a heartbeat if they got jumped on. 

 

The idea that we have too much damage now is ridiculous, and going ALL the way back to the vanilla Cele days just to say that it was more bunker way back then doesn't mean bunker isn't a problem now. 

 

Necro doesn't need blocks and invulns as much to survive a 2v1 when it poops blinds and weakness. CPC alone is basically a soft invuln to anything without resistance or ranged unblockables/non projectile AoE.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 12/14/2021 at 5:53 AM, Math.5123 said:

The numbers on the abilities matter.

 

They matter but also not really. It's actually completely arbitrary what the numbers are. What truly matters more fundamentally is how the skills work and how they interact with other skills.

 

Take for example, a skill that does 50,000 damage...but it's an arc projectile that never lands, has a long cooldown and requires you to take a trait-line that doesn't really work with your other traits.

 

Compare that to your example, a skill that grants all boons but lasts only a second long.

 

Both of these skills have one thing in common: They are not useful to achieve any meaningful goal. Having boons for 1 second is not enough time to use it with anything else, and in the same token, having a one shot ability that never lands is not very meaningful either...in essence it doesn't matter how much damage this one shot ability does...it's always gonna suck. And likewise, no matter how many boons you are granted, nobody is gonna take it.

So you have to ask what it means for something to be able to do something meaningful...meaningful in the sense that people value it enough to take it with them in builds they wish to make and use in matches... That meaning goes far beyond just numbers, and I think the feb patch proved that just shifting numbers is not indicative of attaining a fun or balanced game, but quiet the opposite...and honestly this isn't a wild concept...it's intuitive...mechanics are the life blood of the game...not numbers. It makes sense that changes should be made to how mechanics should work to get results.

Edited December 16, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Spellhunter.9675]

4 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

I guess you don't remember the HoT days where DH, Rev, Warrior, and Thief could just delete you in an instant, and those are just the obvious offenders. Heck, even just before the mega patch, people died in a heartbeat if they got jumped on. 

 

The idea that we have too much damage now is ridiculous, and going ALL the way back to the vanilla Cele days just to say that it was more bunker way back then doesn't mean bunker isn't a problem now. 

 

Necro doesn't need blocks and invulns as much to survive a 2v1 when it poops blinds and weakness. CPC alone is basically a soft invuln to anything without resistance or ranged unblockables/non projectile AoE.

There are no bunkers in 5v5 meta atm.

 

If you let necro live on a node in 1v2 situation for more than 15 seconds you are doing it wrong.

 

[Morwath.9817]

5 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

I guess you don't remember the HoT days where DH, Rev, Warrior, and Thief could just delete you in an instant, and those are just the obvious offenders. Heck, even just before the mega patch, people died in a heartbeat if they got jumped on. 

 

The idea that we have too much damage now is ridiculous, and going ALL the way back to the vanilla Cele days just to say that it was more bunker way back then doesn't mean bunker isn't a problem now. 

 

Necro doesn't need blocks and invulns as much to survive a 2v1 when it poops blinds and weakness. CPC alone is basically a soft invuln to anything without resistance or ranged unblockables/non projectile AoE.

I remember HoT days when I could 1v2 people on Druid 🙃. I also remember multiple Chronobunkers in games and a team in pro league surrendering after enemies got 1 cap, as they knew no single kill will happen in that match. Most of "zerker vs zerker" matchups getting deleted instantly in GW2 history is irrevelant, because pretty often glass builds weren't played by majority and entire "oh you died" bursts were gatekeept by passive invuls. If you played all the time glass you may feel game is slow, but if you played tankier builds in the past, game is rather fast in this berserker meta.

[Math.5123]

4 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

They matter but also not really. It's actually completely arbitrary what the numbers are. What truly matters more fundamentally is how the skills work and how they interact with other skills.

 

Take for example, a skill that does 50,000 damage...but it's an arc projectile that never lands, has a long cooldown and requires you to take a trait-line that doesn't really work with your other traits.

 

Compare that to your example, a skill that grants all boons but lasts only a second long.

 

Both of these skills have one thing in common: They are not useful to achieve any meaningful goal. Having boons for 1 second is not enough time to use it with anything else, and in the same token, having a one shot ability that never lands is not very meaningful either...in essence it doesn't matter how much damage this one shot ability does...it's always gonna suck. And likewise, no matter how many boons you are granted, nobody is gonna take it.

So you have to ask what it means for something to be able to do something meaningful...meaningful in the sense that people value it enough to take it with them in builds they wish to make and use in matches... That meaning goes far beyond just numbers, and I think the feb patch proved that just shifting numbers is not indicative of attaining a fun or balanced game, but quiet the opposite...and honestly this isn't a wild concept...it's intuitive...mechanics are the life blood of the game...not numbers. It makes sense that changes should be made to how mechanics should work to get results.

Yes, I agree. Which is why I also said that having these skills and or specs bloated by design will make them a nightmare to balance. Either they won't be used or they will be busted. Finding a sweet spot is extremely difficult. 

 

Warrior has historically been in a similar position actually. Same with ele. Either they have enough mitigation and resustain so that they literally never die, or they have it nerfed and they are useless. Very few times in the games lifespan have these classes been okay. They are either over the top or bad. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

3 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

I remember HoT days when I could 1v2 people on Druid 🙃. I also remember multiple Chronobunkers in games and a team in pro league surrendering after enemies got 1 cap, as they knew no single kill will happen in that match. Most of "zerker vs zerker" matchups getting deleted instantly in GW2 history is irrevelant, because pretty often glass builds weren't played by majority and entire "oh you died" bursts were gatekeept by passive invuls. If you played all the time glass you may feel game is slow, but if you played tankier builds in the past, game is rather fast in this berserker meta.

And what were the primary issues that made those classes capable of bunker? We had the ridiculous stat combos avaliable, Druid didn't have reduced scaling on its healing, and several mechanics for Chrono and Druid were much different. Now everyone runs zerker, we don't have CC passive traits or passive invuln traits that are relevant anymore, and yet we still have issues with bunkers. Tell me again that damage isn't low?

 

This is another reason why you can't just go 'Bunkers were worse back in XXX time' because the game was much different. You're using the most extreme times of the game where bunkers could be insane but dps could be too, and classes had access to mechanical things they just don't have anymore. Right now, in this meta, damage is low overall.