Concerned about Catalyst in WVW

[scerevisiae.1972]

Ele main, have been playing ele since release. I *really* *really* wanted a new Ele weapon that wasn't melee (we have dagger/sword already and they are great) but it seems like what we're getting with Ele hammer is exactly that -- another melee weapon (14/20 skills are melee). 

The other 6/20 skills are only 600 range. Of those, only 2 are ranged AOEs, and they are small AOEs at that, and pretty low damage as well.

Bottom line, hammer sucks REALLY badly in WVW, it's not at all viable. The short range, small number of AOE skills, and 180 radii just kill it. 

I really don't want to be stuck playing staff/sceptre/dagger again for another 2 years.

@Anet - please rework _some_ hammer skills to make the weapon more ranged than melee, and make the existing ranged AOEs larger (they're only 600 range already!) 

Hammer really really missed the mark, pls fix.

Edited December 17, 2021 by scerevisiae.1972

[Clownmug.8357]

It's disappointing having yet another mostly melee weapon, but I think asking for more, bigger AoEs could backfire. Could end up with either a bunch of wet noodles like Lava Font or spammy nonsense like pre-nerf Scourge shades.

I think if damage is improved in the fire skills hammer would at least be a decent option for smallscalle fights.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Clownmug.8357

[Strider Pj.2193]

I just wanted something more unique,  Yes it’s skills differ from the summoned hammer, but I wanted a weapon we couldn’t already summon..  But there is no going back now.

[RisenHowl.2419]

catalyst is going to reign supreme for damage for most of this expac in wvw, use a staff 😮

[Jski.6180]

The hammer on cat needs build in stab much like weaver dule skills have build in stab. At the end of the day if your taking hits from 10+ effects you should blow up its a problem when other classes can live though so much or if the other classes have the ability to hit you with ranged effects so fast.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

catalyst is going to reign supreme for damage for most of this expac in wvw, use a staff 😮

Most time spent in downed state of all EoD specializations.*
Fixed it for you.

[Infusion.7149]

Realistically it is going to be poor in WVW because catalyst jade sphere is still 15s cooldown in WVW.

If they want to improve hammer for WVW specifically which would be the only reason to use catalyst over tempest/weaver/core ele other than double meteor in chokepoints, I'd probably do something akin to the following:

FIRE (make pressure better and range improved due to zero defensive value from fire hammer 3's orb , fire should be the AoE and splash damage attunement)
* Hammer fire auto now pierces 5 targets (see revenant hammer) , 900 range
--- in my testing it does less power DPS than staff already due to 0.5 coefficient and this can be balanced effectively by not having attacks initiated til they hit the target so that max range does less DPS than close range , this probably needs an aftercast reduction as 0.5 coefficient per second is respectable if it cleaves or pierces
--- should be a slow attack for animation reasons and be balanced around total animation time
--- right now it is about 750ms total activation with quickness at point blank according to PVE logs despite having 0.5 cast time listed
--- The precedent has been set with Dragon's Claw that pierces 5 having a slightly quicker ~700ms with quickness despite 0.5 second activation which is the same cast time , though it has 0.25 coefficient per claw which is up to 0.75 coefficient (adjusted for hammer weapon strength that is ~0.68)
* Hammer 2 (surging flames), increased to 900 range --- coefficient is okay at 1.13 since cooldown is relatively fine at 8s (CoR is 1.15 in WVW) , I think an increase from 600 to 900 range makes it semi-competitive
* Hammer 3 : orb , no longer does power damage to save AWS server resources as it applies burning which has damage already, Grand Finale upped to 1 stack of burning for 10s instead of 2 stacks for 5 seconds in PVE
* Hammer 4 (triple sear) , increased to 900 range --- coefficient is 0.6 per hit up to 1.8 if you somehow hit 3 times on moving targets , it's 20 cooldown so you'd use this in a tight chokepoint and at 600 range it is not going to be precast
* Hammer 5 , no change : it has a blast so it will still see use and it has 1.7 coefficient but is melee PBAOE

AIR (900 range, increase focused area damage and keep the CC ability)
* air auto : drop aftercast to make it faster and increase range to 900, it's extremely poor damage due to cast time of 0.75s while only having 0.6 coefficient, leaving this single target due to hurricane of pain , possibly increase to 130 radius hitting 3 targets
--- from damage logs in PVE it takes roughly 700ms total activation with quickness at point blank
* hammer 2/ hurricane of pain : increased to 5 targets, at 3 targets in 180 radius and 3 cast time it is of limited usefulness due to the rollout time  as people move out of the middle of the AOE meaning you don't hit the same person, increased to 900 range  (see lava font which rolls out damage and doesn't have 3s cast time as well as Dragon's Tooth/Shatter Stone)
--- from damage logs in PVE it is roughly 2200ms in PVE total activation with quickness
--- since it hits 9 times over 3 seconds it is an AOE cleave skill rather than fire's ranged attack which is actually going to generate downed targets in groups
* air  hammer 3 orbs apply weakness which is defensive so orb power damage is retained for counterpressure against melee pushes
* hammer 4 wind storm --- increased to 900 range to match comet/gale , backward movement is a flip skill so you can choose to use it or not
* hammer 5 shock blast --- increased to 900 range , this has CC and a ranged blast so it will see use

WATER (melee)
* Hammer 2  (rain of blows) --- damage could be increased to match auto chain , possibly unsplit in all modes (1.68 coefficient) , it's not worth using at 1.5s cast time otherwise since it hits 3 instead of 5
---- roughly 1100ms cast time in PVE with quickness
* Hammer 3 orb --- remove power damage, increased condition damage reduction from 5% to 10% to match frost aura
--- or decrease damage from burning by additional 12% akin to resolution such that resolution + icy coil cuts burn by 50% , see Soulbeasts' second skin (which reduces condition damage by 20%  while you have protection) allowing you to have a better shot against any burst burning builds such as weaver
* Hammer 5 Cleaning typhoon --- increased to 5 targets in melee range making maximum cleanses now 7

EARTH (melee)
* hammer auto - now bleeds for 2 or 3.5s (as on the hammer 3 orb) , see scepter or dagger auto
* hammer 2 whirling stones -- add whirl
* hammer  3 orb --- passive now cripples instead of bleeding to make it less useless in WVW allowing you to kite or snare people , incoming damage reduction increased to 7% so that it matches tempest with protection, Grand Finale bleeding unsplit from PVE to 4 stacks
--- if you want to go all the way defensive with this it can further reduce damage by ~20% similar to Vengeful Hammers on revenant while in earth attunement however that doesn't seem necessary if you trait earth for -7% from Stone Flesh and -10% from Geomancer's Training

UTILITIES
* Invigorating Air : now removes immobilize and cripple

The above changes would make it on par with something like a hammer scrapper with grenades which are 900 range although most are running flamethrower or mortar due to the projectile nature of grenades , revenant with swords and hammer but with more dps and less range, or a guardian staff and scepter+focus or scepter+torch. At 600 max range pretty much nobody is going to use it over dagger or scepter.

If primarily trying to melee then you would likely build it as water or earth + air + catalyst for soothing mist and/or damage reduction in melee. If trying to range then probably fire+air+catalyst for easy fire auras and bonus power damage.

Between hurricane of pain at 10s cooldown and surging flames at 8s base cooldown and triple sear at 20s base cooldown it should have decent range pressure if it had range and actually 3 to 5 target count when auto attacking.

Overall strategy would be to peruse water and earth for melee cleave/sustain through heal/cleanses as well as immob , use fire for range pressure and air for ranged area focus and CC to generate downed targets. Relentless Fire would amplify fire damage attacks by 15%; Shattering Ice would improve Hurricane of Pain. Without piercing on fire auto attacks it needs to wait 8s+ for actual AoE on fire attunement and air's hurricane of pain doesn't have high reliability due to the low radius to begin with.

-----------------------

For comparison,
Ranged autos

• Fire staff auto is 0.666 coefficient and 1.4 seconds per attack = 0.47 coefficient/second on auto,  this has 1s cast time
• Air staff auto is 0.44 coefficient and 1.17 second per attack = 0.37 coefficient/second on auto , this has 0.75s cast time
• Greatsword on mesmer is 0.45 to 0.669 with 1.12 seconds per attack (1s listed cast time) = 0.40 to 0.59 coefficient/second on auto
• Rev hammer is 0.633 per 1.25s chain (1 cast time) = 0.50 coefficient / second
• Guardian staff is 0.366/0.433/0.5 coefficients for its auto chain which takes 2.68 seconds which means ~0.48 coefficient /second

Ranged burst damage

• Plasma blast on weaver is 1.66 coefficient
• Rev CoR is 1.15 coefficient currently
• Rev Phase Smash is 1.2 coefficient but 1.25s cast time
• Rev Inspiring Reinforcement is 1.0 utility coefficient
• Guard holy strike is 0.91 coefficient
• Ele Dragons' tooth is a delayed 2.0 coefficient skill with 180 radius but on scepter which has  1K weapon strength instead of 1.1K --- equal to ~1.82 coefficient on hammer
• Ele scepter shatterstone is a delayed 1.5 coefficient skill with AOE that has 180 radius but scepter has 1K weapon strength instead of 1.1K --- equal to 1.36 coefficient if it was on hammer
• Necro Putrid mark is 1.32 coefficient and actually has utility (blast/condi transfer) on 20 cooldown and 1200 range , the only thing is the 20 cooldown
• Necro Devouring Darkness is 1.16 coefficient but scepter has 1K weapon strength rather than 1.1K --- equal to ~1.055 coefficient if it was on hammer
• Necro Ghastly claws (single target) is 2.664 coefficient and 1.75 cast time --- equal to ~1.38 coefficient per second if on hammer
• Necro Unholy feast is 1.0 coefficient with boon corrupt in 600 range PBAOE --- equal to 0.91 coefficient on hammer
• Renegade has 1.2 coefficient on Bloodbane path --- equal to 1.09 coefficient on hammer , but this is projectile
• Renegade has 1.68 coefficient on Sevenshot in PVP (not WVW which has PVE balance) --- equal 1.52 coefficient on hammer , but this is projectile
• DH True Shot has 1.91 coefficient but is projectile , adjusting for weaponstrength it would be 1.82 on hammer
• DH Hunter's Ward has 1.666 coefficient final impact damage, adjusting for weaponstrength it would be 1.59 on hammer
• Berserker Fan of Fire has 1.17 coefficient , adjusting for weaponstrength it would be 1.117 on hammer
• Berserker Arcing Arrow has 1.5 coefficient , adjusting for weaponstrength it would be 1.43 on hammer

Edited December 18, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zephyrus.9680]

Catalyst hammer as it is will have no place in PvP/WvW. As long as PvE players are happy with its DPS, Anet probably wont care about addressing that.  At least staff cata may have some value in WvW if only because quickness and the elite. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Zephyrus.9680 said:

Catalyst hammer as it is will have no place in PvP/WvW. As long as PvE players are happy with its DPS, Anet probably wont care about addressing that.  At least staff cata may have some value in WvW if only because quickness and the elite. 

Nah, it won't.
The amount of things you need to cast for that x2 meteor shower will make you ez target or you simply will die to some random AoE that ticks you for 5k.
It also competes with Weaver, so not gonna happen.

[Telgum.6071]

You can always go Trailblazer or Celestial and be OP no matter what.

[Widmo.3186]

14 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

You can always go Trailblazer or Celestial and be OP no matter what.

Yeah, and then you face someone who actually knows what is he doing and not just facetank the damage. Ele is not like necro that can build whatever, spam buttons and be fine, especially core and abomination called catalyst.

Hammer has no place in either spvp or wvw, period. Too slow, too clunky, overall bad. If you play catalyst with for example d/d, its gonna be other side of core ele, not even comparable with 'support' tempest or 'damage' weaver. You can believe me now or wait for EoD release and test it out yourself, your choice. Most ele mains would love to see it deleted and started from scratch, but we all know its not gonna happen

[Telgum.6071]

16 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Hammer has no place in either spvp or wvw, period.

Stopped reading here. The same was said about Virtuoso, Vindicator, Harbinger, Mechanist and Bladesworn and so far I've seen enough of the first four.

I'm not saying Catalyst is good, I'm saying you'll most likely will be able to perform very good with Trailblazer and Celestial, so there are options out there for you.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Stopped reading here. The same was said about Virtuoso, Vindicator, Harbinger, Mechanist and Bladesworn and so far I've seen enough of the first four.

I'm not saying Catalyst is good, I'm saying you'll most likely will be able to perform very good with Trailblazer and Celestial, so there are options out there for you.

Touch some grass, you're too high on your copium Rev that at this point you play different game than everyone else here.
Stats aren't problem, it's the classes that abuse them and how they interact with traits/skills/etc.
Elementalist is pretty much FORCED to run Celestials at this point if it doesn't want to be complete garbage.
Marauder FA Core/Weaver is barely usable and you must 300IQ outplay enemy to actually put a dent into them, Celestial provides everything that Ele needs to survive, but it doesn't do anything beside that.
If you see any hammer Craptalyst in WvW, you can just /laugh and outrun them even on Guardian, because it's 0 mobility spec and weapon.

[Telgum.6071]

13 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Touch some grass, you're too high on your copium Rev that at this point you play different game than everyone else here.
Stats aren't problem, it's the classes that abuse them and how they interact with traits/skills/etc.
Elementalist is pretty much FORCED to run Celestials at this point if it doesn't want to be complete garbage.
Marauder FA Core/Weaver is barely usable and you must 300IQ outplay enemy to actually put a dent into them, Celestial provides everything that Ele needs to survive, but it doesn't do anything beside that.
If you see any hammer Craptalyst in WvW, you can just /laugh and outrun them even on Guardian, because it's 0 mobility spec and weapon.

Seems that no matter what I write, trolling demigod will always come to quote me to justify the overpowered combo that is trail/cele + elementalist. I'm just missing your typical "I'm speaking facts" line.

[Widmo.3186]

3 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Stopped reading here. The same was said about Virtuoso, Vindicator, Harbinger, Mechanist and Bladesworn and so far I've seen enough of the first four.

I'm not saying Catalyst is good, I'm saying you'll most likely will be able to perform very good with Trailblazer and Celestial, so there are options out there for you.

Did you actually play the game? Almost everyone agreed that out of all elites released, catalyst is the worst or one of the worst, both in terms of design and utilities. So please, dont compare it to others, because theres no sense in it (especially comparing it to like Harbringer, lmao).

So yes, I agree catalyst is playable, just like almost everything in gw2 as long as you are mechanically average or above, and enemy is average or below, but hammer is not. If you think otherwise, feel free to whisp me after release and Ill show you why, pick whatever stats you want. I dont know how much copium did you inhale to think hammer will have any usage, in its current state it will suffer same fate as other hammers - eg. warrior, guardian, either memes or nothing at all.
 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Seems that no matter what I write, trolling demigod will always come to quote me to justify the overpowered combo that is trail/cele + elementalist. I'm just missing your typical "I'm speaking facts" line.

Because you people always write kitten and point your fingers at the outcome result instead of the root problem.
Stats are just numbers that don't do a kitten in long run, boons and condies are busted at this point. On top of that add the classes themselves and traits and the "game of skill" suddenly becomes "game of build". 
Tell me how many core eles that run Celestial you see? Let me guess, one or two once every 6 months? You see a lot more Celestial Weavers and Tempets, why is that? Because they're stronger than core in every aspect. Same goes for every class.
If A-net had decided to actually put a hard cap on boons and condies that would work like "hey, your 25 stacks with of might with 10s duration have been removed, so you cannot get any stacks of it for next 5s", the game would be more skill based and the problem of so many boons would be kept by corruptions/removals, use same logic for condies and suddenly your IQ must be increased to actually be competent.

[Infusion.7149]

This is the WvW subforum I'm not sure why you are ranting about celestial? Unless you are roaming or something most elementalists either are full minstrel aura tempest or marauder weaver. You could run celestial on tempest if you're a support but other than that it's more or less strictly power damage meta to the point even scourges are power (as opposed to in the past where they ran part cele).

Also resorting to hyperbole such as "hammer has zero mobility" isn't helpful because in a squad you will have swiftness and/or superspeed and there's a leap / reverse leap on hammer. Blasting in a lightning field also provides swiftness. In addition, if hammer had increased range as people were suggesting it would be on par with necro scepter or axe which relies on soft CC rather than mobility. Even scepter focus eles have "zero mobility" from the weaponset.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Telgum.6071]

3 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Did you actually play the game?

Every single reddit/forum elementalist player ask the same to everyone they disagree with. I'm starting to wonder that maybe you, the "ele downstate meta" squad are the ones not playing the game. What I'm saying is that "X will be unplayable" is something I've read about most of the new specializations and I have five examples where it was simply not true. From what I've seen Catalyst isn't "unplayable" at all, but again, is hard to tell because the few ones I saw were mostly being carried by trail/ele.

3 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

So yes, I agree catalyst is playable, just like almost everything in gw2 as long as you are mechanically average or above, and enemy is average or below, but hammer is not. If you think otherwise, feel free to whisp me after release and Ill show you why, pick whatever stats you want. I dont know how much copium did you inhale to think hammer will have any usage, in its current state it will suffer same fate as other hammers - eg. warrior, guardian, either memes or nothing at all.

I would wait for the final version but again, this doesn't sound right. Everytime I read a thing like this I remember the sort moment when I used to play ele with staff, "a totally useless weapon" where I would deal massive damage to enemy zergs. This isn't exclusive from elementalist, I've read the same things for hammer revenant, yet my experience on WvW with hammer says otherwise.

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Stats are just numbers that don't do a kitten in long run, boons and condies are busted at this point. On top of that add the classes themselves and traits and the "game of skill" suddenly becomes "game of build". 

Ha! Talk about copium now!

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Tell me how many core eles that run Celestial you see? Let me guess, one or two once every 6 months? You see a lot more Celestial Weavers and Tempets, why is that? Because they're stronger than core in every aspect. Same goes for every class.

The same numbers that core revenants and mesmers. I will never understand the moaning about core, from whatever class is.

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Because you people always write kitten and point your fingers at the outcome result instead of the root problem.

From all the times you quoted me, this may be the first time I see you writing something intelligent. But sadly what matters is what happens on the field, and in the field condition abuse is disgusting and elementalist is 10 times more disgusting with it. I'll be happy with any buffs to ele though, assuming said buffs or reworks come with a heavy nerf to stat abuse.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 12/18/2021 at 3:22 AM, RisenHowl.2419 said:

catalyst is going to reign supreme for damage for most of this expac in wvw, use a staff 😮

that's just it though, the absolute last thing i wanted was core ele staff for another 2 years.

 

 

[SweetPotato.7456]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:03 PM, scerevisiae.1972 said:

Ele main, have been playing ele since release. I *really* *really* wanted a new Ele weapon that wasn't melee (we have dagger/sword already and they are great) but it seems like what we're getting with Ele hammer is exactly that -- another melee weapon (14/20 skills are melee). 

The other 6/20 skills are only 600 range. Of those, only 2 are ranged AOEs, and they are small AOEs at that, and pretty low damage as well.

Bottom line, hammer sucks REALLY badly in WVW, it's not at all viable. The short range, small number of AOE skills, and 180 radii just kill it. 

I really don't want to be stuck playing staff/sceptre/dagger again for another 2 years.

@Anet - please rework _some_ hammer skills to make the weapon more ranged than melee, and make the existing ranged AOEs larger (they're only 600 range already!) 

Hammer really really missed the mark, pls fix.

No, Catalyst is my most fav out of all the new elite, can't wait to finally have reason to play my ele. If you make the hammer ranged, might as well use staff.  it is fine as it is.

[Dopamine.6324]

my weaver does everything better than cata, except pve but for that got scourge anyways so not like it matters kitten.

[scerevisiae.1972]

15 hours ago, SweetPotato.7456 said:

No, Catalyst is my most fav out of all the new elite, can't wait to finally have reason to play my ele. If you make the hammer ranged, might as well use staff.  it is fine as it is.

why would you play hammer when dagger and sword are both hands-down better everywhere except vs raid golem. hammer is not viable in WVW for zerg or solo roaming for support or dps roles - it's useless.

you also clearly missed the part about already playing staff ele for 9+ years. 

the mind boggles.

Edited December 21, 2021 by scerevisiae.1972

[SweetPotato.7456]

2 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

why would you play hammer when dagger and sword are both hands-down better everywhere except vs raid golem. hammer is not viable in WVW for zerg or solo roaming for support or dps roles - it's useless.

you also clearly missed the part about already playing staff ele for 9+ years. 

the mind boggles.

dagger for ele been there so long, i never get used to it. I like staff more, hammer suit me.

Edited December 21, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456

[scerevisiae.1972]

well it's nice to know there's at least 1 person who likes hammer, but the reality is, you're not going to be using it in its current form in WVW, that's for sure - it doesn't have the range, mobility, AOE, sustain. It's really a golem benchmark spec and nothing more.

[Arheundel.6451]

5 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

well it's nice to know there's at least 1 person who likes hammer, but the reality is, you're not going to be using it in its current form in WVW, that's for sure - it doesn't have the range, mobility, AOE, sustain. It's really a golem benchmark spec and nothing more.

As long as the hammer does good enough DPS on the golem and it's easy enough to use....the reddit crowd will be pleased as they can showcase their youtube videos, post them with titles in capital letters, claim how great ele is in raid due to the "huge" dps on the static golem....when in the end, 90% of pugs team won't use a catalyst as it will have less sustain than typical faceroll class, harder to use for the sake of it...and typically a pain to use...like it is always on ele...

But hey! "The hammer does 40k on the golem...mission accomplished guys!" Will say Anet...."the benchmarklist is fully balanced"