Banner Rework Confirmed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sarrs.4831]

Pulsing boons from the banner, and perhaps a secondary effect for some banners, sounds like it'd be pretty good. Personally I like the idea of pulsing Alacrity from Tactics.

That said I worry that just "drop and done" banners will be kind of boring. Granted, that's no different from the current state of affairs.

The idea of 'banners on the back' could be cool though personally I think I'd prefer a blend. Let you drop banners but you can also pick up the most important one and keep it on your back, perhaps with some interaction with Doubled Standards (Carry two banners on your back?).

Edited February 13, 2022 by Sarrs.4831

[Jzaku.9765]

From the context of the entire article it's pretty clear that they're thinking of replacing/reworking banners with something that provides either Quickness or Alacrity. I'll believe it when I see it, because I don't think it's a good idea to have a core spec be the primary source of boons like those 2.

 

That said, it does fill me with hope that they took the time to specifically mention the whole boon access thing in the article. Thanks anet. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

From the context of the entire article it's pretty clear that they're thinking of replacing/reworking banners with something that provides either Quickness or Alacrity. I'll believe it when I see it, because I don't think it's a good idea to have a core spec be the primary source of boons like those 2.

 

That said, it does fill me with hope that they took the time to specifically mention the whole boon access thing in the article. Thanks anet. 

Core Mesmer was the original source of group quickness, so there is precedent for core to do it.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Core Mesmer was the original source of group quickness, so there is precedent for core to do it.

Further, none of Warrior's 3 especs are particularly oriented toward support. But we do have a dedicated support trait lines (tactics) and a profession unique support mechanic (banners), so it makes sense that it would be attached to those.

 

I love the idea of making core warrior stronger. In fact, I see the trend toward espec power creep to be very troubling, so I hope that they will make similar changes for other professions as well. Core profession builds should have a viable playstyle in all or at least most game modes. Especs should provide flavor and nuance without relegating core professions to the trash heap.

[Broxxgar.6801]

Shout and Banner Support Warrior Could be a good step to implement a new Support role to Warrior. Would be very unique to Warrior, hope that this banner is attached to Warrior hand or his back, so he can keep moving with the flag, shouting and increasing the morality of his group. This would be fun.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

10 minutes ago, Broxxgar.6801 said:

Shout and Banner Support Warrior Could be a good step to implement a new Support role to Warrior. Would be very unique to Warrior, hope that this banner is attached to Warrior hand or his back, so he can keep moving with the flag, shouting and increasing the morality of his group. This would be fun.

Hopefully with no unnecessary tradeoffs like "only one banner can be carried at a time".

[DemonCrypto.6792]

thinking about making banners better.
There is one small problem with that.
Ok they will make them better but banner slave was born because banners was the strongest option in utilitys.
Yes the other one are less important from the start (in pve at least), so what change to banners will make other option in utilitys better ?
 

Do they just throw all other build out the window (even if there are none in pve at this time) to make banners even more the ultimate go to for war ?

Banner was the root of war problem but they forgot there is a kitten tree on top of that, the other utilitys and why they are not used in pve content.

I serously hope they don't look only at the banners (but still happy they finally see war has some flaws)

Edited February 13, 2022 by DemonCrypto.6792

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 hours ago, DemonCrypto.6792 said:

thinking about making banners better.
There is one small problem with that.
Ok they will make them better but banner slave was born because banners was the strongest option in utilitys.
Yes the other one are less important from the start (in pve at least), so what change to banners will make other option in utilitys better ?
 

Do they just throw all other build out the window (even if there are none in pve at this time) to make banners even more the ultimate go to for war ?

Banner was the root of war problem but they forgot there is a kitten tree on top of that, the other utilitys and why they are not used in pve content.

I serously hope they don't look only at the banners (but still happy they finally see war has some flaws)

Shouts, Tactics and Discipline all need a look while checking the banners.

 

For starter's Shake it Off with it's current CD needs either a buff, or flat out CD decrease. Also a second shout should become a bit more helpful, preferably On My Mark with some form of unique effect or boon. If they make Banners provide boons based on their Stats, then Warrior can easily use other sources of Quinkness or Alacrity.

 

With a check on Martial Cadence providing AoE alacrity when Soldier's Focus is spent, or with Heightened Focus becoming an AoE Quickness on burst with a set CD, you can easily give proper traits to compete with options such as Phalanx strength (needs a buff too) and especially Burst Mastery or Axe Mastery.

 

Vigorous Shouts could use a buff overall and Warrior's Cunning could be removed with Soldier's Comfort for new more supportive traits.

 

Tactics and Discipline should imo be able to provide two different means of Support, but I won't delve too much into that and how it would work in the long run. Also a possibility would be for Shouts to move into Discipline and these new Banners move in GM spot of Tactics.

[Jzaku.9765]

6 hours ago, DemonCrypto.6792 said:

thinking about making banners better.
There is one small problem with that.
Ok they will make them better but banner slave was born because banners was the strongest option in utilitys.
Yes the other one are less important from the start (in pve at least), so what change to banners will make other option in utilitys better ?
 

Do they just throw all other build out the window (even if there are none in pve at this time) to make banners even more the ultimate go to for war ?

Banner was the root of war problem but they forgot there is a kitten tree on top of that, the other utilitys and why they are not used in pve content.

I serously hope they don't look only at the banners (but still happy they finally see war has some flaws)

I completely agree that Banners has significantly impacted the state of the support side of Warrior for far too long for any simple change to be acceptable. The worst case scenario would be for them to just change every banner to pulse a boon instead.

3 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Vigorous Shouts could use a buff overall and Warrior's Cunning could be removed with Soldier's Comfort for new more supportive traits.

IMO you should reverse your opinions on Vigorous Shouts and Soldier's Comfort. Looked at from another angle, Vigorous Shouts has been holding back the effectiveness of Shouts and vice versa. A Shout can't have too low CD because it would abuse the trait too much, but then a high CD Shout has such a strong effect that it's difficult to justify using just to trigger the trait. 

Meanwhile if they actually spent dev time on improving Soldier's Comfort to not suck, it would work well with ANY Warrior build going into the future, because there is no Warrior build that isn't trying to land burst skills as often as possible. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

48 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I completely agree that Banners has significantly impacted the state of the support side of Warrior for far too long for any simple change to be acceptable. The worst case scenario would be for them to just change every banner to pulse a boon instead.

IMO you should reverse your opinions on Vigorous Shouts and Soldier's Comfort. Looked at from another angle, Vigorous Shouts has been holding back the effectiveness of Shouts and vice versa. A Shout can't have too low CD because it would abuse the trait too much, but then a high CD Shout has such a strong effect that it's difficult to justify using just to trigger the trait. 

Meanwhile if they actually spent dev time on improving Soldier's Comfort to not suck, it would work well with ANY Warrior build going into the future, because there is no Warrior build that isn't trying to land burst skills as often as possible. 

More was thinking in the line of, "new vigorous shout trait that doesn't reduce shout CD and instead makes them more potent, maybe with boons" while decreasing overall CDby a bit. 

 

Then again it can play in numerous ways. Soldier's Comfort would be good with a 4s ICD on Marching Orders. I'm not too sure about its healing coeff at that point tho.. 

 

Main idea was that Shouts can make a build, a single trait in Soldier's Comfort isn't rly build defining. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Soldiers comfort could be on a 5s CD and heal for more. Not sure how much, but it should have higher scaling at least.

Martial Cadence, 3s of alacrity on burst, AoE, 5s CD.

Heightened Focus, same as above but quickness.

None of those should be on burst hit.

Banners could be anything, do long as they are mobile, and have active effects. Could be extra boons on pulse, could be unique modifiers. So long as they place/pick up dance goes away.

 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Soldiers comfort could be on a 5s CD and heal for more. Not sure how much, but it should have higher scaling at least.

Martial Cadence, 3s of alacrity on burst, AoE, 5s CD.

Heightened Focus, same as above but quickness.

None of those should be on burst hit.

Banners could be anything, do long as they are mobile, and have active effects. Could be extra boons on pulse, could be unique modifiers. So long as they place/pick up dance goes away.

 

Tbh I'd never expect them to give warrior both boons, in which case they'd make sure we can not provide both 100% uptime, which may puts us in the trash bin. 

 

Now whether I'd prefer Martial Cadence to stay or Heightened Focus, is a weird choice. Quickness is def good on warrior, but overabundant through FB and Scrapper now. Alac is more rare in WvW at least, since Ventari Heralds or Alacrigades are rare and Chronos don't rly focus on Alac, it's just a byproduct to them. 

[Infusion.7149]

I will laugh hard if berserkers give quickness from Burst of Aggression with refresh whenever you burst with Last Blaze to turn it into condi quickness. Mainly if you look at condi meta, berserker is not highly sought after so it would actually help on Soulless Horror and Matthias and less on Twin Largos where targets move often.

I don't see warriors getting alacrity, that would probably be for druid after spirits are reworked (mainly frost spirit IMO). There's many alacrity sources coming with EOD.

Quickness is going to be from firebrand, scrapper, harbinger, StM chrono (needs too much boon duration nowadays) as well as catalyst. That's 5/9 classes. Catalyst can't heal well and StM chrono healing is kind of meme, although catalyst in its latest iteration can apply might and fury. Warrior would be better than scrapper and StM chrono when you don't need healing from your quickness source, for example if you run alac mechanist. It doesn't have the ramp time of StM chrono and if you run pack runes you would be able to upkeep some semblance of fury with "For Great Justice".

Alacrity is going to be from renegade, mirage / maybe chrono (if full boon), mechanist, and specter. That's 4/9 classes unless you count the half baked alacrity willbender for 5/9.

Frankly quickness is generally a stronger boon than alacrity is.



 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Aeolus.3615]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

(snip)
Alacrity is going to be from renegade, mirage / maybe chrono (if full boon), mechanist, and specter. That's 4/9 classes unless you count the half baked alacrity willbender for 5/9.

Frankly quickness is generally a stronger boon than alacrity is.



 

And scrapper i bet they will add more stuff into scrappers...lol

Unless they will make warrior banner and ranger spirits give alac as well since party boon share skills will  be back from 10 targets  to 5 across the game.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[artharon.9276]

20 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Banners could be anything, do long as they are mobile, and have active effects. Could be extra boons on pulse, could be unique modifiers. So long as they place/pick up dance goes away.

 

 

yep, also my biggest concern is that place/pick up dance to stay. it's hilarious to see when entire group is done with their encounter moving forward but the poor warrior running opposite way to pick up their stupid banner. I don't understand why people were cheering when they lost their ability to share some boons with the removal of banner bundles. banner skills needed a buff but instead they traded them this stupid design. Not only that, it was something unique to the warrior. 

 

Whirlwind Banner - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

was able to grant others stability.

 

Compassionate Banner - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

was able to grant others regen.

 

rest of the banner skills were absolutely garbage, but at least options were there.

 

here summon skills 

 

Summon - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

even guardian's summon skills, which I believe people find them underwhelming, is way more exciting than warrior banners and arguably, unlike warrior, guard is one of the most resourceful class in the game. and it has good looking animations. that's why I defend either getting bundles back with major improvements or getting pets to carry them again with improvements. 

 

about that idea of sticking banners to warriors' backs.

just quit suggesting that! bloody hell that's an atrocious design. it's not just a cheap way to solve a problem without caring what kind of weird back item people wear, it's also meaningless since they already have leftover animations from old bundles.

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 minutes ago, artharon.9276 said:

 

yep, also my biggest concern is that place/pick up dance to stay. it's hilarious to see when entire group is done with their encounter moving forward but the poor warrior running opposite way to pick up their stupid banner. I don't understand why people were cheering when they lost their ability to share some boons with the removal of banner bundles. banner skills needed a buff but instead they traded them this stupid design. Not only that, it was something unique to the warrior. 

 

Whirlwind Banner - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

was able to grant others stability.

 

Compassionate Banner - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

was able to grant others regen.

 

rest of the banner skills were absolutely garbage, but at least options were there.

 

here summon skills 

 

Summon - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

even guardian's summon skills, which I believe people find them underwhelming, is way more exciting than warrior banners and arguably, unlike warrior, guard is one of the most resourceful class in the game. and it has good looking animations. that's why I defend either getting bundles back with major improvements or getting pets to carry them again with improvements. 

 

about that idea of sticking banners to warriors' backs.

just quit suggesting that! bloody hell that's an atrocious design. it's not just a cheap way to solve a problem without caring what kind of weird back item people wear, it's also meaningless since they already have leftover animations from old bundles.

 

 

Warrior, OG stab, might, fury, and swiftness. Compassionate Banner used to have a larger heal too.

They really just needed the AA and skills 3, 4, and 5 to all be different which to me was the thing holding the original banners back. 

[artharon.9276]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Warrior, OG stab, might, fury, and swiftness. Compassionate Banner used to have a larger heal too.

They really just needed the AA and skills 3, 4, and 5 to all be different which to me was the thing holding the original banners back. 

 

I don't think anybody would want exact same banner bundles back.

 

But this was a big part of warrior's identity it was meaningless to take it away. 

 

 

Banner_training.jpg (660×680) (guildwars2.com)

 

this is what a warrior is.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

6 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

about that idea of sticking banners to warriors' backs.

just quit suggesting that!

I mean the whole concept does not involve the banner fashion. That can easily be toggled in or off and have the banners indicate through some other means. Like the Herald Facets, some marks above the warrior maybe for each active banner. 

 

Also, it's the only way to make mobile banners possible without transforming them into placable aoes (like now, but with a different functionality). Cause I dont personally want some Chrono wells-like thing, I want a scrapper gyro-like experience to enhance warrior gameplay. 

 

Its the superior option. Mobility to banners can only be achieved by bounding the Aoes around the warrior. 

[artharon.9276]

32 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I mean the whole concept does not involve the banner fashion. That can easily be toggled in or off and have the banners indicate through some other means. Like the Herald Facets, some marks above the warrior maybe for each active banner. 

 

Also, it's the only way to make mobile banners possible without transforming them into placable aoes (like now, but with a different functionality). Cause I dont personally want some Chrono wells-like thing, I want a scrapper gyro-like experience to enhance warrior gameplay. 

 

Its the superior option. Mobility to banners can only be achieved by bounding the Aoes around the warrior. 

 

 

What you want is totally fair, proper mobilty for banners. But I'd rather have what eso dragonknights' shifting  standard's mechanics has than than a banner sticked to my back. Chances are we'll be getting a toggle switch for making it visible/invisible is also another question. So I'll keep it risk free and defend gathering all useful buffs under elite battle standard's bundle. Addition to that, pressing the same skill button for normal banners to summon the banner again to shift its location. Again, No to turning into a walking banner sorry.

Edited February 15, 2022 by artharon.9276

[The Boz.2038]

REALLY hoping they unify the banners and spirits with the +Stat traits (and maybe some +Effect traits, too, such as Vampiric Presence) into the one same type of "thing" that overlaps. 
So, two +Ferocity sources wouldn't stack, but a +Ferocity and +Power does.

My dream form of banner is:
Banner of Generic Effect
1s cast time, 30s cooldown
Place banner at 600 range. Banner grants +Stat. Lasts 60s.
Flip-over skill: Consume banner for Some Effect (pulse a barrier for Defense, pulse a rez for Battle Standard, etc.). Consuming it causes the banner to go to full cooldown.
Pick up banner for -30s cooldown, making it available again.

Banner trait - Consuming a banner causes it to pulse its flip over effect one more time, 3 seconds later. Picking up a banner causes it to pulse once.

[draxynnic.3719]

Well, if we're taking the 'go big or go home' approach:

 

Dragon Banner

Turtle Banner

Centaur Banner

 

Okay, that's probably a little too crazy, but there's certainly strong precedent for banners to be doing more as a bundle item than they did in 2019.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

REALLY hoping they unify the banners and spirits with the +Stat traits (and maybe some +Effect traits, too, such as Vampiric Presence) into the one same type of "thing" that overlaps. 
So, two +Ferocity sources wouldn't stack, but a +Ferocity and +Power does.

My dream form of banner is:
Banner of Generic Effect
1s cast time, 30s cooldown
Place banner at 600 range. Banner grants +Stat. Lasts 60s.
Flip-over skill: Consume banner for Some Effect (pulse a barrier for Defense, pulse a rez for Battle Standard, etc.). Consuming it causes the banner to go to full cooldown.
Pick up banner for -30s cooldown, making it available again.

Banner trait - Consuming a banner causes it to pulse its flip over effect one more time, 3 seconds later. Picking up a banner causes it to pulse once.

Thats all well and good, but if they are not mobile then they only have use in instanced endgame PvE content, which is what a lot of us want to get away from.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Well, if we're taking the 'go big or go home' approach:

 

Dragon Banner

Turtle Banner

Centaur Banner

 

Okay, that's probably a little too crazy, but there's certainly strong precedent for banners to be doing more as a bundle item than they did in 2019.

^ Exactly. Though Dragon Banner is more of an elite quality... 

Its not like they don't have the tech or ideas to make Warrior banners better than the old bundles.

[The Boz.2038]

How mobile do you want them, tho?
Glued to character? So your banner appears as a pole and a flag that you carry on your back? Not a bad idea, certainly workable. How'd that work with multiple banners? 
Autonomous banner-bot-ghost-floaty-flag-thing? Are they interactive with, say, launch? Can you yeet it like a Kalla spirit?
Repositionable, like Ventari's Tablet? With a cooldown on the move? That disables flip-over functions, tho...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

How mobile do you want them, tho?
Glued to character? So your banner appears as a pole and a flag that you carry on your back? Not a bad idea, certainly workable. How'd that work with multiple banners? 
Autonomous banner-bot-ghost-floaty-flag-thing? Are they interactive with, say, launch? Can you yeet it like a Kalla spirit?
Repositionable, like Ventari's Tablet? With a cooldown on the move? That disables flip-over functions, tho...

TBH, they'd have to rework the style of banner. A pennon type of banner would be best, they could flow behind a back mounted pole. They could all be on one pole, but have designated spots, or they could be on separate poles, each with designated angles fanning out about the back.

Could be that merely having them equipped plants them on the back to pulse their main effect around the warrior. Give them ammo charges to grant effects based on the banner (no charges for Battle Standard). You'd be able to keep the +stats, they'd be easier to manage, and then they'd have an active component to them that can be anything, but more importantly actual support abilities that aren't +stats.

I'd still like them to have bundles back, but reworked to be stronger, but the above is probably the most realistic.

My main beef with banners is the plant/pick up downtime. That is not fun.