2/28 PvP Balance

[Kuma.1503]

Would have liked to see more love to weaker builds and fewer nerfs at this point, but I can't complain too much about what I'm seeing here. 

Tempest changes are very nice. 2 ammo feel the burn is huge. 

Necro changes are warranted. It's been OP going on 2 years now. 

Don't know enough about thief to comment on their changes, but I'm sure others will. 

Flamethrower scrapper nerfs are also fine. It's not uncommon for devs to balance around lower and higher ranks. 

Edit: I have realized that the flame blast change is indeed a buff.

This is a nice bit of love to core builds because you're too busy cycling cooldowns to be autoing in flamethrower, and Flame burst is a key part of your burst. 

A nerf to an obnoxious build and  some love to core in the same patch? Can't complain. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Downstate.4697]

If you guys werent prepared for nerfing thief properly you shouldnt have nerfed it at all. Id rather we had another season with current thief while you guys figured it out. Your pve skills and balance team need to step up and make real mechanical changes across the board. Im frustrated for thief players and i hate thieves.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

Not a fan of blood magic nerfs ..I just feel like life stealing is so minor compared to other damage and Healing and that traitline didn't have much else going for it.  The other necromancer nerfs I can understand. 

 

Ah the shadow arts nerf are terrible though. You can't have a heal skill on a 40s CD and frankly HiS was good how it was. It is very easily interruptable or punishable during the longer casting. Also Blinding Powder is farrrr from OP, and increasing a stun-break to 50s is absolute crap... in fact I've always felt this skill should be on a 35s timer.

In the otherhand, I'm not surprised by the Duration decrease to smokescreen and agree with that thought, but it is overdone and should be 5sec. Currently it's reduced a crazy 42%.

 

I get the mentality for the Guardian change... but I feel like it doesn't really help much...90s skills are often only used once anyway. 

[Stalima.5490]

The flamethrower reasoning doesn't make alot of sense, if spamming 1 is a problem then why have you not simply nerfed the 1 and buffed the direct damage of the other abilities, and if it is still an issue then it becomes obvious that the damage was never the issue.

 

The only reason 1 spam even got used in the first place is because of the pitiful level of strike damage on the 2 compared to it's time investment to use and the same goes for the tiny fire wall you get that does almost nothing 95% of the time in pvp mostly because of it's size.

[Kuma.1503]

3 hours ago, Nimbus Nomad.1237 said:

Dude they buffed condi engi with this change and core engi is predominantly ran as condi. Power focused flamethrower builds don't even work with core engi, since it's the superspeed × quickness than enables it. The burn buff increase on flame blast is fantastic. 

 

 

It's a nerf I'm pretty sure. Longer condis take longer to dish our their damage. They didn't say the burning was increased just that the duration went up. 

They nerfed ele the same way a few patches back. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

These are all fine tbh. 

4 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Necromancer

• Unholy Martyr: Reduced the number of conditions removed when exiting shroud from 3 to 2 in PvP only.
• Vampiric: Reduced base life-stealing damage from 41 to 29 in PvP only. Reduced base life-stealing healing from 39 to 26 in PvP only. Minion life-stealing has been adjusted to match the necromancer life-stealing in PvP only.
• Vampiric Presence: Reduced base life-stealing damage from 65 to 49 in PvP only. Reduced base life-stealing healing from 32 to 28 in PvP only. Reduced life-stealing bonus effectiveness while in shroud from 100% to 50% in PvP only.
• Lesser Enfeeble: Reduced weakness duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only.
• Summon Flesh Wurm: Increased cooldown from 32 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only.
• Lich Form: Reduced the amount of life force granted when exiting the transformation from 15% to 5% in PvP only.
• Deathly Claws (Lich Form): Reduced power coefficient from 2.34 to 1.64 in PvP only.

Condition-based core necromancer is the most common variation, boasting a high playrate and winrate in both tournaments and ranked play. Reaper and minion builds are a bit less common in tournament play, but are still extremely effective in the ranked environment in almost every rating bracket. A common component in all these builds is the Blood Magic traitline. The life siphoning traits in particular generate a ton of value over the course of an extended fight, contributing to both outgoing pressure and self-sustain. Unholy Martyr getting a slight shave to its cleanse also reduces the amount of life force generation for the blood magic builds, which in combination with the siphon adjustments and other defensive shaves should give more chances to pressure enemy necromancers.

In addition to the Blood Magic adjustments, we’re making a few changes to further reduce necromancer survivability. Weakening Shroud will still provide a strong amount of weakness between its on-critical trigger and Lesser Enfeeble, but the latter coming down to 3 seconds should provide more opportunities to go aggressive in the cases where it can’t be avoided or cleansed. Flesh Wurm also gets a slight cooldown increase to bring it more in line with other necromancer stunbreaks.

Finally, Deathly Claws is getting a reduction in damage. While good counterplay options exist, it can be more difficult to capitalize on these as a team in a less coordinated environment like ranked. We feel that there’s room to tune Deathly Claws in a way that lich is still a threatening elite skill, while also giving players a bit more time to react when the counterplay isn’t immediate.

 

Good. Thank you very much.

 

Quote

Core guardian is undoubtedly the best support build in the current state of the game, and we see this in both its play rate and win rate compared to other options. We’re going to be keeping a close eye on the general pace of the meta following the changes to necromancer, but currently we see core guardian as being fairly close to what we want out of a support build in terms of power level. There are things that can be shaved if we find a broader reduction to support builds is needed, but for now we want to improve diversity of the support role by bringing other builds up to the level of core guardian. For this update we’ve started with Tempest, but for a follow-up patch we’re also investigating some buffs to support warrior. Additionally, we’ve started some investigation into what other specializations have the potential to fit into the support role, but for the short term we’re prioritizing tempest and warrior as both of those have been the premier support build in previous metas and feel the closest to competing with guardian.

The one thing that we are touching in the support realm is the availability of resurrection utilities, namely Signet of Mercy and Glyph of Renewal. These skills are significantly more potent in slower metas where kills are less frequent, especially in the ranked environment where teams are less likely to coordinate cleaving or stomping while also interrupting the resurrection skill. Going forward we’ll constantly be evaluating the pace of fights and what the right availability is for these skills, but for now we believe the longer cooldown is warranted. Battle Standard is remaining slightly lower (120 seconds when picked up) as an elite skill.

Okay. While that support role for warrior is being considered, please take a look at the mitigative stances, particularly berserker stance. Also if you can give Berserker a once over that would be great.

 

Quote

Tempest

• Elemental Shielding: Increased protection duration from 2 seconds to 2.5 seconds in PvP only.
• Latent Stamina: Increased endurance gain from 10 to 15 in PvP only.
• Elemental Bastion: Increased healing coefficient from 0.55 to 0.8 in PvP only.
• "Feel the Burn!": Increased ammunition count from 1 to 2 in PvP only.
• Glyph of Renewal: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 135 seconds in PvP only.

For this round of Tempest buffs we primarily looked at the earth variant. While the fire variant was more commonly seen the last time that tempest was getting regular play, we see earth as the more well-rounded support build. Giving a bit more protection back to Elemental Shielding and bumping up the healing of Elemental Bastion, in addition to an additional use on Feel the Burn should give the more shout-oriented earth build more impact.

This is fine. Tempest does need a bit more sustain. 

 

Quote

Thief

• Hide in Shadows: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only.
• Blinding Powder: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 seconds in PvP only.
• Shadow's Rejuvenation: Reduced base heal from 219 to 158 in PvP only.
• Smoke Screen: Reduced field duration from 7 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.

The Shadow Arts trait line is a common topic of discussion when it comes to thief balance. We’ve been having some conversations internally about common feedback topics like Hidden Thief and Meld with Shadows, but those discussions are still ongoing and for now we’ve bumped up the cooldown on some of the stealth-granting deception skills. Smoke Screen is also getting a duration reduction rather than a cooldown increase as 7 seconds is a bit longer than we like to see on a one-second pulse blind field.

Smoke screen nerf is fine/to be expected. 

The other nerfs I think are a bit heavy handed. It appears that this is intended as a temporary fix, but a lot of this doesn't specifically target shadow arts and will damage builds that may not have relied on SA before this time. 

Please keep in mind stealth is one of the major mitigative options for thief, and that if measures are being taken to carve into the uptime for that, some consideration should be given to the more visible mitigative options (Like Acrobatics, mitigative utilities and skills that do not utilize stealth, etc.) They need to be good at something. 

Quote

Flamethrower Scrapper

• Flame Jet: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.25 to 0.15 in PvP only.
• Flame Blast: Increased burning duration from 4 seconds to 6 seconds in PvP only.

Finally, we have an adjustment to Flamethrower Scrapper. This is another case where we’re making a shorter-term change while discussions are happening around the underlying issue (Juggernaut pulsing stability). This build isn’t too widely played compared to some of the other meta builds, but it’s one of the most effective in lower ranks and the gameplay of primarily sitting in flamethrower kit and autoattacking isn’t something that we like to see. If the damage reduction doesn’t appear to be impactful enough, we’ll likely split the pulse interval of Juggernaut until we can find a better game-wide solution.

 

That’s all we have for today. As we briefly touched on there are a few things that are already being looked into for post End of Dragons launch, and we’ll also be evaluating the state of the new elite specializations as we gather more real gameplay data.

 

-The Systems Team

This is fine.

8.5/10, targeted and addresses some glaring issues, thanks.

Worried about that thief nerf but the necro nerf will probably reduce the need for excessive reliance on certain utilities touched.  I'll get over being upset about that if the need for it is removed or reduced. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Nimbus Nomad.1237]

11 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

It's a nerf I'm pretty sure. Longer condis take longer to dish our their damage. They didn't say the burning was increased just that the duration went up. 

They nerfed ele the same way a few patches back. 

Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's just a straight buff since burning has a consistant way of being calculated. 

 3 seconds of burning on ability x doesn't have different damage than 3 seconds of burning from ability y. They should always be the same, assuming all other variables remain constant, right? So 6 seconds of 2 stacks of burning will always be more than 4 seconds of 2 stacks of burning. 

[Voneveric.8507]

Leave it to thief players to always complain about something. You guys are the best duelist class in the game hands down with a plethora of options to engage/disengage and even reset. I'm fine with the nerfs, but honestly Condi classes are more of an issue than Thieves.

[Stalima.5490]

11 minutes ago, Nimbus Nomad.1237 said:

Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's just a straight buff since burning has a consistant way of being calculated. 

 3 seconds of burning on ability x doesn't have different damage than 3 seconds of burning from ability y. They should always be the same, assuming all other variables remain constant, right? So 6 seconds of 2 stacks of burning will always be more than 4 seconds of 2 stacks of burning. 

I would be curious to see if burn duration stacking this version of flame blast could be effective, after all, dropping maybe 9 seconds of 2 burns on someone then running off for 6 seconds could be an annoying tactic, because that is what it will be if you apply for example a balthazar rune and smoldering sigil and on the off chance that is what happens, how is that any better than 1 spamming?

Edited February 19, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Sovarica.4368]

About time, this current meta is awful and should have been addressed a long time ago. At least it's almost here

[Voneveric.8507]

20 hours ago, Sovari.7246 said:

About time, this current meta is awful and should have been addressed a long time ago. At least it's almost here

as

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Voneveric.8507

[Downstate.4697]

8 minutes ago, Voneveric.8507 said:

Amen. Sick of the bunker/Condi meta, Should extend to pve too. Right now its a 2 class meta, in PvP AND PvE: Firebrands/Scourges

 

I cant remember the last time i saw either in ranked pvp. 

[Bazsi.2734]

5 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Thief

• Hide in Shadows: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only.
• Blinding Powder: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 seconds in PvP only.
• Shadow's Rejuvenation: Reduced base heal from 219 to 158 in PvP only.
• Smoke Screen: Reduced field duration from 7 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.

I agree that Shadow Arts being the meta pick for thieves is bad. But this actually just forces people into SA now. These are skills used by many builds, now you'll need the reduction to deception skills which is a trait located on the SA traitline... so if anything this reinforces the reliance on Shadow Arts.
Yes shadow arts needed to be hit, but not like this. In my ideal world Shadow Arts traits would give choices to prolong stealth, give regen in stealth, give cleanse while in stealth, increase incoming/outgoing healing(specter), damage reduction while revealed, some extra blinds... and NOTHING ELSE. No fear when backstabbing enemies, no poisons, no lifesteal, nothing offensive. Picking SA should mean you're losing serious amounts of damage.

This currenty patch achives nothing beside making thief slightly more clunky to play. But only slightly, so nothing really will change.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

51 minutes ago, Voneveric.8507 said:

Leave it to thief players to always complain about something. You guys are the best duelist class in the game hands down with a plethora of options to engage/disengage and even reset. I'm fine with the nerfs, but honestly Condi classes are more of an issue than Thieves.

Duelist where?

2v2/3v3?

Conquest?

[moonbeans.6014]

Hey ANet, could you just do us thief mains a favor and delete the class from the game? It's obvious too overpowered and unbalanced. Certainly the pinnacle of PvE and every other game mode for that matter.

 

Purge us for the sin of existing and maybe we could focus our time and energy into playing a totally not broken class like Necromancer, Guardian, or Mesmer. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by moonbeans.6014

[moonbeans.6014]

48 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I agree that Shadow Arts being the meta pick for thieves is bad. But this actually just forces people into SA now. These are skills used by many builds, now you'll need the reduction to deception skills which is a trait located on the SA traitline... so if anything this reinforces the reliance on Shadow Arts.
Yes shadow arts needed to be hit, but not like this. In my ideal world Shadow Arts traits would give choices to prolong stealth, give regen in stealth, give cleanse while in stealth, increase incoming/outgoing healing(specter), damage reduction while revealed, some extra blinds... and NOTHING ELSE. No fear when backstabbing enemies, no poisons, no lifesteal, nothing offensive. Picking SA should mean you're losing serious amounts of damage.

This currenty patch achives nothing beside making thief slightly more clunky to play. But only slightly, so nothing really will change.

What are thief players to do when ANet nerfs every other viable build? Year after year after year we've been hit with nothing but nerfs. There are no other viable playstyles because they were all removed from the game.

[Zekent.3652]

These necro nerfs are good, but please don't bring back the healbreaker.

[Nimbus Nomad.1237]

1 hour ago, Stalima.5490 said:

I would be curious to see if burn duration stacking this version of flame blast could be effective, after all, dropping maybe 9 seconds of 2 burns on someone then running off for 6 seconds could be an annoying tactic, because that is what it will be if you apply for example a balthazar rune and smoldering sigil and on the off chance that is what happens, how is that any better than 1 spamming?

I hate to break it to you mate, but kiting around and avoiding damage while your abilities are on cooldown is how gw2 pvp is played. You don't just sit there and facetank damage while spamming 1 when waiting for cds, unless you're playing ft scrapper, but that's getting nerfed, so poggers.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Nimbus Nomad.1237

[pukish.5784]

signet of mercy can get more longer cd cus i dont like that signet at all

[AikijinX.6258]

These Thief SA changes are very illogical. That’s all I’m saying about that, however, if these get brought in to WvW I’m flipping a table. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by AikijinX.6258

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

As a tempest player in top150  to top100(plat2) i wanna say few words here and there. 

I am playing earth-fire-tempest. So basically it doesn't need water to be "supportive" but it can be tanky teamfighter that can also duel very well and also support allies(start of the game swiftness, instant 24 might to allies in fights, protection and some small cleanses and small heals). 

With conjure shield and tornado(cc is also some kind of defense-denying enemy to dps you) you basically can live for very long right now. These buffs are not needed as it boosts brusier tempest and not support. 

If you wanna push support tempest(with water and aura share) you must bring support amulet without condi/power stats in it. Otherwise tempest will be ultimate multirole class.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Be very careful with buffing Tempest. It's secretly much stronger right now than most people realize.

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

If you wanna buff correctly support tempest buff next things:

"Aquamancer's training" outgoing ally heal from 15% to 25% instead of buffing "Elemental bastion"
"Powerful Aura" adds 15% concentration value on outgoing boons instead of buffing "Elemental shielding"

For "Feel the burn" x2 ammo it needs increased cooldown recharge so now you can chain it or double press for big might but not for later. So cooldown from 25 sec to 35 sec.

From my perspective these buffs you mentioned are there to buff catalyst and not just tempest but you see what you do if you mess with core traits, so i would suggest you to target elite specs more than core.

 

[Tycura.1982]

Seems you missed a few things or they just flew over your head.

 

Guardian is meta support over tempest for two reasons. Survivability and aoe stability. Ele gets 2 seconds on earth swap traited that's all. Ele beefs it under focus stoneheart or not.

 

DH and trapper goes untouched?

 

Instead of addressing the sustain in SA you gut thief utilities? How about heartseeker damage to initiative cost?

 

I don't have much to say about the necro changes other than it seems like Reaper takes the hit harder than core.

 

It's been so long since any meaningful PvP balance patches and this is very underwhelming. What ever happen to more consistent changes you guys talked about? I'm not even surprised at this point just demoralized. Hype everyone up for the EoD flash in the pan and then put us back on ice again right?

[Archmage Talaftia.9853]

finally some nerfs to annoying scrappers  and core necro , is super annoying to go against them ,
hope they nerf more stuff like ; rune of trapper, entangle, and invul abilities .