2/28 PvP Balance

[xblankk.4207]

13 minutes ago, Carmela.8756 said:

 Yeah but the Problem lies in SA and not those Skills. I mean they drive the thief players even more into SA Use because we now have 2 class skills with bad CD no one will slot anymore. And as i know Anet when they changed or nerfed SA they will not revert those CD's back. Then not any alternatives? So they only want to kill SA and what then?

Yeah, I agree with you.

Overall, I'm just glad we got any balance changes tbh.

[LuRkEr.9462]

3 minutes ago, Pretty Sirius.2374 said:

Usual Anet logic. So thief is the next class they destroy after mesmer

I'm just surprised they didn't find a reason to nerf mesmer again

[Nimbus Nomad.1237]

2 minutes ago, XenoSpyro.1780 said:

Yeah, endless cycles of "screw core to nerf elite" tend to cause that, hence my irritation with yet another core nerf.
But you weren't paying attention on purpose

Nerf scrapper superspeed and quickness then? Wow, what a concept.

How about you don't nerf scrapper, since outside of the flamethtower build, it isn't even good. Why are you complaining about the flamethrower changes anyways? It's literally a buff to core engi. 

Don't sleep on the flameblast buff, it's very good. 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

More blessings! Praise the great nerf hammer! 🙏

 

Each blessing brings us closer to that staple 0 damage, infinite CD Gw2 combat.

Keep up the great work, and continue to improve the Gw2 PvP experience.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to blink three times while looking directly into the camera.

[Crab Fear.1624]

nevermind, i dont care.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Crab Fear.1624

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Thief

for now we’ve bumped up the cooldown on some of the stealth-granting deception skills.

 

 

So you actually mean "permanently, unless the skill is removed entirely."  Because you guys EXTREMELY RARELY ever revert any balance changes.  Like I can literally count on one hand the amount of nerf reverts I've seen you guys do over the past 9 years

I can't get down with a 40s Heal Skill.  And honestly the thief changes are just absurd.  Cooldowns are such a lazy way of balancing instead of actually adjusting the skill effects to be more in-line with what you want

Edited February 18, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Lowkey expecting this to be another batch of "unfinished" changes.

 

At least no warrior nerf!!! 🎉🥵

[Shroud.2307]

That Flesh Wurm change better not ever make it in to WvW. 

Re-reading, I agree with @XenoSpyro.1780
This is something I've been stating and concerned with a lot recently, that knowing ANet, they'll nerf something that also effects core when the problem is the elite. And here we are - they did that.

The nerf isn't as bad as I thought, so I'm not that upset, but still frustrated. Betting they also nerf Juggernaut, Grenade Barrage, Grenade power coefficients, increase Rifle cooldowns, and nerf Flashbang - all core things - and leave Holo and Scrapper untouched because of course they will.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Shroud.2307

[Ashgar.3024]

1 hour ago, xKole.9175 said:

As a thief, I'm a little sad

I'm not. SA carried so many bad Thieves.

 

Good changes overall, i get its not a full blown meta shift and just preliminary changes but it feels like you guys are going in the right direction.

[anjo.6143]

Heal with 40s CD, Stunbreak with 50s CD, so now SA is a MUST. 
Seriously, I really wanna know what is the college or specialization the people doing balance did.

[Infusion.7149]

Some outliers in "low-tier PVP" / unranked that seem to be missing off the top of my head (that aren't split from PVE) are: procession of blades on dragonhunter , shredder gyro on scrapper (arguably it is  not split because it is damage over time), dwarf hammers on rev, all renegade summons, and spiritcrush on renegade. These are skills similar to flamethrower that aren't particularly overpowered but simply don't have a damage split after Feb 2020. In fact I'd argue flamethrower scrapper was more affected by the lack of a quickness split in competitive modes than anything.

I'm confused about the glyph nerf for elementalist because unlike guardian's signet of mercy or signet of undeath on necro it literally does nothing unless someone goes down. If tempest is to be brought back as a support build you probably want to keep it at 90 seconds just to see how that plays out.

SA thief nerfs were expected, maybe we will return to more of the marauder sword+dagger or sword+pistol style of gameplay where stealthing every few seconds isn't part of the playstyle. I doubt it however.

I'm not a fan of the flesh wurm nerf, but everyone could have seen Lich nerf from a mile away...

Also why no berserker improvements? 😄 Mesmer is untouched as well (people have been asking for power mesmer to be more playable since the mantra change and some complain about mantra of distraction), but that's expected.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Mini Crinny.6190]

38 minutes ago, LuRkEr.9462 said:

I'm just surprised they didn't find a reason to nerf mesmer again

these are only some of the changes

[Jski.6180]

Any thoughts on maybe giving tempest quickness or alacrity even if its just self only. You guys seems to be all in on the EoD classes but not so much for HoT and PoF.

Added though ppl run fire for support tempest because condi clear is king in spvp (wvw too). For what ever reason aura clears are stronger then reg clears now and there was never a "protection" like clear effect for support.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Jski.6180
Added thoughs.

[Crab Fear.1624]

1 hour ago, Nimbus Nomad.1237 said:

I cant speak for all of the changes, but you pretty much only run hide in shadows if you are running SA anyways, since withdrawal is the superior heal without it. 

Hide in shadows is the goat heal, on any build.

These changes make shadowarts mandatory for dp.

Bye bye diversity.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Crab Fear.1624

[Burial.1958]

29 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Some outliers in "low-tier PVP" / unranked that seem to be missing off the top of my head (that aren't split from PVE) are: procession of blades on dragonhunter , shredder gyro on scrapper (arguably it is  not split because it is damage over time), dwarf hammers on rev, all renegade summons, and spiritcrush on renegade. These are skills similar to flamethrower that aren't particularly overpowered but simply don't have a damage split after Feb 2020. In fact I'd argue flamethrower scrapper was more affected by the lack of a quickness split in competitive modes than anything.

I'm confused about the glyph nerf for elementalist because unlike guardian's signet of mercy or signet of undeath on necro it literally does nothing unless someone goes down. If tempest is to be brought back as a support build you probably want to keep it at 90 seconds just to see how that plays out.

SA thief nerfs were expected, maybe we will return to more of the marauder sword+dagger or sword+pistol style of gameplay where stealthing every few seconds isn't part of the playstyle. I doubt it however.

I'm not a fan of the flesh wurm nerf, but everyone could have seen Lich nerf from a mile away...

Also why no berserker improvements? 😄 Mesmer is untouched as well (people have been asking for power mesmer to be more playable since the mantra change and some complain about mantra of distraction), but that's expected.

 S/D is pretty often played in WvWvW. S/P? What a clunky mess with no synergy at all. Complete joke in that Meta with all those blocks/barriers etc.  None will play that set regulary. So that would only mean that most thiefs will play S/D then instead of D/P. Peoples come again to the forum to complain that S/D has to much ports & evades. I mean look into the Permastealth Thread. There where even peoples complaining about Staff Skill  "Vault"?! Arena Net swing the nerfhammer again and then it will be very critical because there isn't any set left which is good for PVP. Maybe Specter will bring some juice but also here it will be nerfed 😁 And Anet said they wanted a Healbot for the commander. Now i do not think that the Core Main Thief players want to be a healbot for the next years. They will screw this up because they refuse to rework other Traitlines like Acro & Deadly Arts and also some sets which are simply bad. 

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 S/D is pretty often played in WvWvW. S/P? What a clunky mess with no synergy at all. Complete joke in that Meta with all those blocks/barriers etc.  None will play that set regulary. So that would only mean that most thiefs will play S/D then instead of D/P. Peoples come again to the forum to complain that S/D has to much ports & evades. I mean look into the Permastealth Thread. There where even peoples complaining about Staff Skill  "Vault"?! Arena Net swing the nerfhammer again and then it will be very critical because there isn't any set left which is good for PVP. Maybe Specter will bring some juice but also here it will be nerfed 😁 And Anet said they wanted a Healbot for the commander. Now i do not think that the Core Main Thief players want to be a healbot for the next years. They will screw this up because they refuse to rework other Traitlines like Acro & Deadly Arts and also some sets which are simply bad. 

No it isn't people run staff in WVW unless roaming.

Plus vault has a PVP split already.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Burial.1958]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No it isn't people run staff in WVW unless roaming.

Plus vault has a PVP split already.

Staff is only played mostly in Zergplay. Because in Roaming Situations it is bad and easy countered because yeah it is simply bad. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by Grebcol.5984

[Noko Anon.9154]

Hi there!

I hope you can understand why the player base is reacting the way it is, because egregious changes that have been made in the past haven't been properly rectified, the promise last year of consistent balancing hasn't panned out (though with the pandemic this one can't be held against the team), and the solutions being provided here aren't taking care of the "disease", but instead affecting the symptoms. I would like to explain this by addressing thief.

Shadow Arts on thief is used because of the stealth access, yes, but also because Meld with Shadows used in conjunction with the swiftness granted by Unhindered Combat in the Daredevil line gives thieves unparalleled movement, which is what they lost when Infiltrator's Arrow had its initiative cost raised. It's not that Shadow Arts is so strong, but that other possibilities with thief are so weak. Deadeye has nearly no mobility, which is a design of the specialization. Core thief, meanwhile, can only readily have decent--not good, decent--mobility by going down Acrobatics to get Expeditious Dodger. Note, however, that Expeditious Dodger only grants 6 3/4 seconds of swiftness, compared to the 11 1/4 seconds granted by Unhindered Combatant, -and- that Daredevil has three dodges as part of its specialization, while core thief only has two. In other words, Daredevil readily has over twice the duration of swiftness that core thief has available to it by trait lines alone. Daredevil also has much more tremendous evasion options available (Unhindered Combat doing a better job than Don't Stop and Expeditious Dodger -combined), better endurance management (Endurance Thief doing in one button press what Endless Stamina and Feline Grace and/or Vigorous Recovery would have to do over time), better condition removal (Escapist's Fortitude not being limited to one's current health like Guarded Initiation, which is almost ineffective when being chased by a longbow ranger for example), and better enemy control (Weakening Strikes causing Weakness). Why go down Acrobatics when Daredevil does everything it does, but better? For Swindler's Equilibrium, when it's so much more effective to spike a player at less than 50% health with a dagger backstab out of stealth from Shadow Arts than to fight with a sword that has been so heavily nerfed out of the fear of a stunlock or an easily-telegraphed Flank Strike? Or Upper Hand, which gives 1 initiative every 5 seconds? Acrobatics offers players next to nothing, and even core players are moving towards Pistol/Dagger condition thieves to deal damage because at least Shadow Strike and Bola Shot (with it's 1 1/2 second Immobilize with Vulnerability) offer mobility that a sword simply cannot provide, not even with Infiltrator's Strike (a 1 second Immobilize with Swiftness for 1 less initiative).

That speaks for the profession in terms of mobility, but what about utility skills? Well, Deception skills have a heal that removes some of the most dangerous conditions (burning and poison), stealth on stability, and a shadowstep. These are good skills, but the only reason they're so strong is that other options are so incredibly weak. I'm not going to speak about Venoms or Signets here, but rather Tricks. If one takes Hidden Thief, a person gains stealth on steal (quick stealth attacks to trigger Rending Shade, which steals 1 boon on top of the commonly selected trait Bountiful Theft's 2 boons), and a Hide in Shadows that is on a 1 second shorter cooldown than Withdraw while also curing dangerous conditions and granting stealth for better repositioning, a blinding stealth with stability for either avoiding a pull or push or finishing downed professions like warrior or guardian that can interrupt a finishing move and that also functions as a blast finisher, and a teleport that can easily access second levels on maps that have more than one floor to them. The trade-off for Hidden Thief is Shadow's Embrace (usually not taken in PvP matches because perma-stealth isn't something heavily relied upon) or Merciful Ambush (which I will not discuss because you've already said your team is discussing it). In other words, the gains from Hidden Thief greatly outweigh the costs of not taking the other traits.

Let's take a look at Trickster, and Tricks. Withdraw doesn't provide stealth, but it does provide a short evade frame and removes non-damaging conditions and torment, though torment received a nerf in its mechanics so certain torment-focused professions could have condition builds in PvE content. Roll for Initiative is also a great tool, offering players spacing and a huge initiative gain. And then there's Haste, which does increase overall damage, and is a stunbreak, but it doesn't offer nearly the defensive capabilities that Blinding Powder does, and when both are traited, Blinding Powder has a 4 second shorter cooldown. More than that, Trickster allows tricks to remove 1 single condition. What's the cost of that? Bountiful Theft, which can steal aegis or resolution, and also provides the thief and nearby allies vigor for more dodging. Where can a thief get vigor access from then, besides Bountiful Theft? Well, Deadeye offers some options, but again, we aren't looking at Deadeye in PvP due to their intentional mobility issues. The only trait line that offers vigor access for thieves besides this one great trait is Acrobatics, which we've already gone over as to why it's a poor trait line. One condition removed is not worth losing the boonstripping and vigor that a thief wants to avoid attacks in PvP. Tricks aren't bad because Deception skills are so strong, it's that Deceptions are so strong because Tricks are so bad.

The point is, some things do need to be nerfed. However, these thief changes aren't it. I don't expect miracles, and I don't expect everything to be reworked when you have a massive expansion coming out. That's ridiculous entitlement. However, when you all do have the ability to allocate resources towards balancing the game, please focus less on hurting what is considered good right now, and focus instead on helping what is considered useless and/or redundant.

Acrobatics is useless and redundant.

Core engineer is useless.

Soulbeast is redundant.

Then, when we've gotten to a point where things start evening out, then we can focus on real problem children in the game, like the "trade-off" for Firebrand from core is gaining 15(!) skills instead of having just 3 from their Virtues. All one step at a time, of course.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

at this point pls change weakening shroud to something else since there is no option for power builds.

[saerni.2584]

2 hours ago, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

Hi everyone,

In addition to bringing new elite specializations, the End of Dragons release will include a handful of PvP balance changes that we want to cover today.

Overview

• Necromancer variants
• Core Guardian Support
• Tempest
• Shadow Arts Thief
• Flamethrower Scrapper

 

Necromancer

• Unholy Martyr: Reduced the number of conditions removed when exiting shroud from 3 to 2 in PvP only.
• Vampiric: Reduced base life-stealing damage from 41 to 29 in PvP only. Reduced base life-stealing healing from 39 to 26 in PvP only. Minion life-stealing has been adjusted to match the necromancer life-stealing in PvP only.
• Vampiric Presence: Reduced base life-stealing damage from 65 to 49 in PvP only. Reduced base life-stealing healing from 32 to 28 in PvP only. Reduced life-stealing bonus effectiveness while in shroud from 100% to 50% in PvP only.
• Lesser Enfeeble: Reduced weakness duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only.
• Summon Flesh Wurm: Increased cooldown from 32 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only.
• Lich Form: Reduced the amount of life force granted when exiting the transformation from 15% to 5% in PvP only.
• Deathly Claws (Lich Form): Reduced power coefficient from 2.34 to 1.64 in PvP only.

Condition-based core necromancer is the most common variation, boasting a high playrate and winrate in both tournaments and ranked play. Reaper and minion builds are a bit less common in tournament play, but are still extremely effective in the ranked environment in almost every rating bracket. A common component in all these builds is the Blood Magic traitline. The life siphoning traits in particular generate a ton of value over the course of an extended fight, contributing to both outgoing pressure and self-sustain. Unholy Martyr getting a slight shave to its cleanse also reduces the amount of life force generation for the blood magic builds, which in combination with the siphon adjustments and other defensive shaves should give more chances to pressure enemy necromancers.

In addition to the Blood Magic adjustments, we’re making a few changes to further reduce necromancer survivability. Weakening Shroud will still provide a strong amount of weakness between its on-critical trigger and Lesser Enfeeble, but the latter coming down to 3 seconds should provide more opportunities to go aggressive in the cases where it can’t be avoided or cleansed. Flesh Wurm also gets a slight cooldown increase to bring it more in line with other necromancer stunbreaks.

Finally, Deathly Claws is getting a reduction in damage. While good counterplay options exist, it can be more difficult to capitalize on these as a team in a less coordinated environment like ranked. We feel that there’s room to tune Deathly Claws in a way that lich is still a threatening elite skill, while also giving players a bit more time to react when the counterplay isn’t immediate.

 

Core Guardian Support

• Signet of Mercy: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 135 seconds in PvP only.

Core guardian is undoubtedly the best support build in the current state of the game, and we see this in both its play rate and win rate compared to other options. We’re going to be keeping a close eye on the general pace of the meta following the changes to necromancer, but currently we see core guardian as being fairly close to what we want out of a support build in terms of power level. There are things that can be shaved if we find a broader reduction to support builds is needed, but for now we want to improve diversity of the support role by bringing other builds up to the level of core guardian. For this update we’ve started with Tempest, but for a follow-up patch we’re also investigating some buffs to support warrior. Additionally, we’ve started some investigation into what other specializations have the potential to fit into the support role, but for the short term we’re prioritizing tempest and warrior as both of those have been the premier support build in previous metas and feel the closest to competing with guardian.

The one thing that we are touching in the support realm is the availability of resurrection utilities, namely Signet of Mercy and Glyph of Renewal. These skills are significantly more potent in slower metas where kills are less frequent, especially in the ranked environment where teams are less likely to coordinate cleaving or stomping while also interrupting the resurrection skill. Going forward we’ll constantly be evaluating the pace of fights and what the right availability is for these skills, but for now we believe the longer cooldown is warranted. Battle Standard is remaining slightly lower (120 seconds when picked up) as an elite skill.

 

Tempest

• Elemental Shielding: Increased protection duration from 2 seconds to 2.5 seconds in PvP only.
• Latent Stamina: Increased endurance gain from 10 to 15 in PvP only.
• Elemental Bastion: Increased healing coefficient from 0.55 to 0.8 in PvP only.
• "Feel the Burn!": Increased ammunition count from 1 to 2 in PvP only.
• Glyph of Renewal: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 135 seconds in PvP only.

For this round of Tempest buffs we primarily looked at the earth variant. While the fire variant was more commonly seen the last time that tempest was getting regular play, we see earth as the more well-rounded support build. Giving a bit more protection back to Elemental Shielding and bumping up the healing of Elemental Bastion, in addition to an additional use on Feel the Burn should give the more shout-oriented earth build more impact.

 

Thief

• Hide in Shadows: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP only.
• Blinding Powder: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 seconds in PvP only.
• Shadow's Rejuvenation: Reduced base heal from 219 to 158 in PvP only.
• Smoke Screen: Reduced field duration from 7 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.

The Shadow Arts trait line is a common topic of discussion when it comes to thief balance. We’ve been having some conversations internally about common feedback topics like Hidden Thief and Meld with Shadows, but those discussions are still ongoing and for now we’ve bumped up the cooldown on some of the stealth-granting deception skills. Smoke Screen is also getting a duration reduction rather than a cooldown increase as 7 seconds is a bit longer than we like to see on a one-second pulse blind field.

 

Flamethrower Scrapper

• Flame Jet: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.25 to 0.15 in PvP only.
• Flame Blast: Increased burning duration from 4 seconds to 6 seconds in PvP only.

Finally, we have an adjustment to Flamethrower Scrapper. This is another case where we’re making a shorter-term change while discussions are happening around the underlying issue (Juggernaut pulsing stability). This build isn’t too widely played compared to some of the other meta builds, but it’s one of the most effective in lower ranks and the gameplay of primarily sitting in flamethrower kit and autoattacking isn’t something that we like to see. If the damage reduction doesn’t appear to be impactful enough, we’ll likely split the pulse interval of Juggernaut until we can find a better game-wide solution.

 

That’s all we have for today. As we briefly touched on there are a few things that are already being looked into for post End of Dragons launch, and we’ll also be evaluating the state of the new elite specializations as we gather more real gameplay data.

 

-The Systems Team

Why touch SR's health regen and not the initiative gain? Even an increase from 1 per 3 seconds to 1 per 5 would significantly alter the ability for long term stealth durations. 
 

The people complaining about stealth are all

complaining about duration. The number of times they cite various stealth granting abilities is simple because they don't understand how thief works and think nerfing the SA duration or bonus stealth durations will prevent long duration stealth builds. 
 

Initiative regeneration is the only thing that is making long duration stealth (and multiple initiative skills post long duration stealth) possible. 
 

I don't know why targeting the most useful cleanse heal on thief for a 40 second base cooldown makes any sense (are thieves healing too much condi?). 

I get the idea to nerf a combo blast like Blinding Powder to avoid some stealth duration...but again look at Shadow's Rejuvenation (I get you can't change design at the PvP balance level but this just seems like you're jumping ahead of what needs to happen, real holistic balance). 
 

I somewhat get the PvP specific reasons for duration nerf to Smoke Screen. It's a big field and in PvP the nodes are important and similarly sized. I still think people can play around it but I'll reserve judgment on this until I see the feedback on the actual gameplay....

 

Most of this is a miss for me to be honest. Really hope the main balance team is willing to make an effort here. 

[Dreggon.6598]

I'd like to see Shadowstep/Shadow Return changed so you only have 10 seconds to return to your location rather than 15. You could also make Shadowstep's cooldown reset to 50 seconds if Shadow Return is used, and recharge normally if it's not (just like how portal works). Maybe change its cooldown to 30 seconds in PvE too since it's a cool movement ability.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

6 minutes ago, Dreggon.6598 said:

I'd like to see Shadowstep/Shadow Return changed so you only have 10 seconds to return to your location rather than 15. You could also make Shadowstep's cooldown reset to 50 seconds if Shadow Return is used, and recharge normally if it's not (just like how portal works). Maybe change its cooldown to 30 seconds in PvE too since it's a cool movement ability.

This is the thing, btw.

After stealth finally gets gutted due to "public opinion", they come for A) Shadowstep, B) Infiltrator's Strike and Return,  C) Shadow Shot and D) Dagger Storm.

You know it's going to happen, because people want those free kills above all else.

[Nimbus Nomad.1237]

32 minutes ago, Noko Anon.9154 said:

Soulbeast is redundant.

Hahaha good one mate. 

[Crab Fear.1624]

21 minutes ago, saerni.2584 said:

Why touch SR's health regen and not the initiative gain? Even an increase from 1 per 3 seconds to 1 per 5 would significantly alter the ability for long term stealth durations. 
 

The people complaining about stealth are all

complaining about duration. The number of times they cite various stealth granting abilities is simple because they don't understand how thief works and think nerfing the SA duration or bonus stealth durations will prevent long duration stealth builds. 
 

Initiative regeneration is the only thing that is making long duration stealth (and multiple initiative skills post long duration stealth) possible. 
 

I don't know why targeting the most useful cleanse heal on thief for a 40 second base cooldown makes any sense (are thieves healing too much condi?). 

I get the idea to nerf a combo blast like Blinding Powder to avoid some stealth duration...but again look at Shadow's Rejuvenation (I get you can't change design at the PvP balance level but this just seems like you're jumping ahead of what needs to happen, real holistic balance). 
 

I somewhat get the PvP specific reasons for duration nerf to Smoke Screen. It's a big field and in PvP the nodes are important and similarly sized. I still think people can play around it but I'll reserve judgment on this until I see the feedback on the actual gameplay....

 

Most of this is a miss for me to be honest. Really hope the main balance team is willing to make an effort here. 

The one making decisions is getting ideas from a private discord

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

nerf teef more and nerf tempest dont buff it