Let me get this straight

[Zacchary.6183]

7 hours ago, kai.5149 said:

I do, I use the build from the video and its becoming very boring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=jYYJ5GMdTms&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=Noody

Yes, roaming and 1v1s against autoattackers are very boring indeed.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

3 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Yes, roaming and 1v1s against autoattackers are very boring indeed.

ignore him, hes not even in the 100s of posts and lacks contribution. uses my old guild leader Noody videos to make a point, which fails miserably.

[Zacchary.6183]

2 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

ignore him, hes not even in the 100s of posts and lacks contribution. uses my old guild leader Noody videos to make a point, which fails miserably.

Fully aware of that. I still am willing to give him a chance to validate his opinion, but most of us know what the reality is.

[Zacchary.6183]

8 minutes ago, kai.5149 said:

Exactly, most of us know thief is much more forgiving than any other class in wvw... it's pretty simple

 

No, the reality is that people are not as good as they think they are. And instead of taking the steps necessary to get better or simply admit that certain things are not their cup of tea, they wish for the thing that is grating against them to be destroyed. For example, I am terrible at playing and playing against a mesmer because of my tab targeting habits. Unlike others, I don't go to the mesmer forum to complain.

[Kuma.1503]

This is coming from one of the players who hates fighting thief. 

Thief might we the weakest class in the game right now. Taking all game modes into account. 

Pre EoD, thief's mobility + stealth meant that players had little agency when fighting against a competent one. In order to kill the thief, you had to bait them into greeding or making a mistake because the thief had the tools to dictate when and where the fights happened and could easily disengage unfavorable situations and re-engage when circumstances were more favorable for them. 

Post EoD, mobility has been handed out like candy. Even Necromancer and Guardan has been made more mobile with the release of Harb and Willbender, and classes that previously lacked shadowsteps were given shadowsteps. 

Players have more agency when fighting thief than they did pre-EoD. While this is a good thing, it also means that thief has lost the one advantage it used to have. Now that other classes have an easier time keeping up with it, it's high time to give back to thief some of what was taken away. Perhaps in this new landscape, they can tune the cost of IA back down a bit. Undo some of the nerfs to S/P and S/D. Dare I say, even make staff viable again? 

In the past I would have said "staff is pretty unhealthy with all the evades it has". But then Virtuoso came out. Constant aegis spam, 5 second invuln. Additional invuln on blade renewal. Another block on f4. Additional blocks/evades on scepter and sword. I think the bar for what is acceptable has changed. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

13 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

No, the reality is that people are not as good as they think they are. And instead of taking the steps necessary to get better or simply admit that certain things are not their cup of tea, they wish for the thing that is grating against them to be destroyed. For example, I am terrible at playing and playing against a mesmer because of my tab targeting habits. Unlike others, I don't go to the mesmer forum to complain.

which is the main contribution to why thief has been the target of QQ since release.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

This is coming from one of the players who hates fighting thief. 

Thief might we the weakest class in the game right now. Taking all game modes into account. 

Pre EoD, thief's mobility + stealth meant that players had little agency when fighting against a competent one. In order to kill the thief, you had to bait them into greeding or making a mistake because the thief had the tools to dictate when and where the fights happened and could easily disengage unfavorable situations and re-engage when circumstances were more favorable for them. 

Post EoD, mobility has been handed out like candy. Even Necromancer and Guardan has been made more mobile with the release of Harb and Willbender, and classes that previously lacked shadowsteps were given shadowsteps. 

Players have more agency when fighting thief than they did pre-EoD. While this is a good thing, it also means that thief has lost the one advantage it used to have. Now that other classes have an easier time keeping up with it, it's high time to give back to thief some of what was taken away. Perhaps in this new landscape, they can tune the cost of IA back down a bit. Undo some of the nerfs to S/P and S/D. Dare I say, even make staff viable again? 

In the past I would have said "staff is pretty unhealthy with all the evades it has". But then Virtuoso came out. Constant aegis spam, 5 second invuln. Additional invuln on blade renewal. Another block on f4. Additional blocks/evades on scepter and sword. I think the bar for what is acceptable has changed. 

This! thank you

Thief got nerfed passively simply by not getting buffed while other professions got beefier or were improved in their mobility etc.

Just playing around with some coefficients won’t help to redeem what was lost.

Not a big fan of teapot but he was right on point with his statement that you cant fix design failures with numbers, but it seems thats what the balance team still tries to achieve 

[Zacchary.6183]

15 minutes ago, kai.5149 said:

ye whatever keep deluding yourselves that thief isn't the problem in every game mode, the game will not get better and will eventually die. This has been going for years now and its getting no better while the population leaves the game because of poor balance.

Players got their thief nerfs. Players got their hard counter. Players got thief cornered into a non-role. Players got their thief-rivalling mobility. Players got the only anti-stealth counter in the game removed. Anet has been catering to non-thieves for a decade now. Even when thief was +1/decap and roam only, players still complained about "not getting a kill". In fact, I wouldn't doubt that the deletion of thief would only make those same players move onto another profession. Because the problem was never the profession in the first place.

[Bern.9613]

40 minutes ago, kai.5149 said:

ye whatever keep deluding yourselves that thief isn't the problem in every game mode, the game will not get better and will eventually die. This has been going for years now and its getting no better while the population leaves the game because of poor balance.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. People downloaded GW2, joined ANet, knowing full well there was thief, a stealth class, in the game. ANet should be aware that thief uses initiative for weapon attacks. So why are they increasing initiative costs and not increasing cool downs on other classes' weapon skills? ANet should be aware that the "power" strike for thief comes from being stealthed. So why is there a concerted effort to destroy thief stealth? Why is ANet slowly dismantling the class? Why are ANet leaders, like Josh Davis saying, a source of frustration in competitive game play? So, knowing all that, why are you still playing? Why are you here crying the boohoos?

Edited February 8, 2023 by Bern.9613

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

51 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Players got their thief nerfs. Players got their hard counter. Players got thief cornered into a non-role. Players got their thief-rivalling mobility. Players got the only anti-stealth counter in the game removed. Anet has been catering to non-thieves for a decade now. Even when thief was +1/decap and roam only, players still complained about "not getting a kill". In fact, I wouldn't doubt that the deletion of thief would only make those same players move onto another profession. Because the problem was never the profession in the first place.

guarantee if we actually had someone maining thief for 10+ years to voice these concerns so we had a balance in the right direction people would come back that mained the class. its like anet is unfamiliar with the thief as a whole, where it started out and where it is now in comparison. Dentists doing Brain surgery...its not supposed to be that way. i imagine a majority of the balance team goes off of books or other videos games and thinks itll work here but it wont. need to start over with thief and what makes it thief as well as making it effective but not overpowered.

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:54 PM, Zacchary.6183 said:

EDIT: Btw, they could easily figure out how to beat thief if they would just play one. Most other professions have enough in their toolkit to take a thief out or repel them without much effort. But this mentality that if the thief bolts that they should have died instead is whats really powering the hatred.

You're out of touch with reality if you think that lol.

[Zacchary.6183]

11 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

guarantee if we actually had someone maining thief for 10+ years to voice these concerns so we had a balance in the right direction people would come back that mained the class. its like anet is unfamiliar with the thief as a whole, where it started out and where it is now in comparison. Dentists doing Brain surgery...its not supposed to be that way. i imagine a majority of the balance team goes off of books or other videos games and thinks itll work here but it wont. need to start over with thief and what makes it thief as well as making it effective but not overpowered.

Granted, they are getting better as time goes on. I would be under the impression something drastic happened in the company if this were 2015.

[Zacchary.6183]

21 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

You're out of touch with reality if you think that lol.

I couldn't care less for peoples' opinions, dude, even my own. And even though all I do is observe, observation isn't really needed to get to the root of the problem. All you really need to ask is "Why isn't it the most popular profession in competitive modes?" and there are only two answers to that.

1. Non-thieves don't want to play it for w/e reason.
2. Non-thieves are incapable of playing it for w/e reason.

#2 implies non-thieves cannot match the skill requirements needed to do well with thief. #1 does not, but then if they refuse to understand how the profession plays, its pretty much their fault and they're not going to have a good time. Understandable that people who are used to tapping skills in sequence don't want to play a profession that can only do so much before you're briefly locked out of weapon skills. Resource management really sucks for a lot of people, but that is the appeal of the profession.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Zacchary.6183

[cyberzombie.7348]

Bruh how did this thread get necro'd a year after?

[Yasai.3549]

13 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

This is coming from one of the players who hates fighting thief. 

Thief might we the weakest class in the game right now. Taking all game modes into account. 

Pre EoD, thief's mobility + stealth meant that players had little agency when fighting against a competent one. In order to kill the thief, you had to bait them into greeding or making a mistake because the thief had the tools to dictate when and where the fights happened and could easily disengage unfavorable situations and re-engage when circumstances were more favorable for them. 

Post EoD, mobility has been handed out like candy. Even Necromancer and Guardan has been made more mobile with the release of Harb and Willbender, and classes that previously lacked shadowsteps were given shadowsteps. 

Players have more agency when fighting thief than they did pre-EoD. While this is a good thing, it also means that thief has lost the one advantage it used to have. Now that other classes have an easier time keeping up with it, it's high time to give back to thief some of what was taken away. Perhaps in this new landscape, they can tune the cost of IA back down a bit. Undo some of the nerfs to S/P and S/D. Dare I say, even make staff viable again? 

In the past I would have said "staff is pretty unhealthy with all the evades it has". But then Virtuoso came out. Constant aegis spam, 5 second invuln. Additional invuln on blade renewal. Another block on f4. Additional blocks/evades on scepter and sword. I think the bar for what is acceptable has changed. 

What you're seeing here isn't Thief being weak, it's Thief hitting what was considered "mechanical superiority" too early and as a result when every other class are given options that catch up to them, their mechanical edge is stripped away to reveal what a fundamentally simplistic class design with no thought around proper balancing results in. 

Think about it. Why do you think so many Thief side arguments defend Stealth so much, despite it being such a proven toxic variable in the PvP scene, so much so that even Rangers, Engis and Trapper Rune users get so much flak for it? It's because Thief fundamentally breaks the moment Stealth is removed from the equation. There are several other things about Thief that just snaps like a twig when tweaked just a little bit, like Ini cost (everyone remembers of the SB5 meltdown) and Steal being the single most loaded skill in the entire game, being able to generate to 10~ effects in a single button press on a 17s cooldown. But without all these, Thief just doesn't function. If a class needs really toxic or borderline busted variables to walk, maybe it's time to perform that much needed operation and rework Thief. 

Thief will never improve if it doesn't play by the same rules as the others, because you either risk having it being way too strong, or you do a little tweaking and the class falls apart. 

Rev used to be like Thief, playing with different rules, having really busted skills on the reasoning that it costs Energy, but look how far Rev has fallen in the competitive scene. Thief is slowly treading the ground that Rev has walked before. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Dr Meta.3158]

2 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

What you're seeing here isn't Thief being weak, it's Thief hitting what was considered "mechanical superiority" too early and as a result when every other class are given options that catch up to them, their mechanical edge is stripped away to reveal what a fundamentally simplistic class design with no thought around proper balancing results in. 

Think about it. Why do you think so many Thief side arguments defend Stealth so much, despite it being such a proven toxic variable in the PvP scene, so much so that even Rangers, Engis and Trapper Rune users get so much flak for it? It's because Thief fundamentally breaks the moment Stealth is removed from the equation. There are several other things about Thief that just snaps like a twig when tweaked just a little bit, like Ini cost (everyone remembers of the SB5 meltdown) and Steal being the single most loaded skill in the entire game, being able to generate to 10~ effects in a single button press on a 17s cooldown. But without all these, Thief just doesn't function. If a class needs really toxic or borderline busted variables to walk, maybe it's time to perform that much needed operation and rework Thief. 

Thief will never improve if it doesn't play by the same rules as the others, because you either risk having it being way too strong, or you do a little tweaking and the class falls apart. 

I wish this post could be pinned.

[Bern.9613]

7 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Think about it. Why do you think so many Thief side arguments defend Stealth so much, despite it being such a proven toxic variable in the PvP scene, so much so that even Rangers, Engis and Trapper Rune users get so much flak for it? It's because Thief fundamentally breaks the moment Stealth is removed from the equation. 

I suppose if you actually played thief you would know the answer to your own question. But for the moment, let's go with, you, the uneducated, are leading the unknowing.

Why do so many thieves defend stealth? Oh, ummmm, because the only power skill comes from the attack from STEALTH. Like back stab, from stealth, death's judgement, once again, from stealth, tactical strike, yep, from stealth, hook strike, ya got it, from stealth. So, now, do you know why a thief defends stealth?

If we keep the people commenting in the Thief part of forums, actually playing thief, then maybe the misinformation and bias bs would stop. FYI traps were taken away from thief because of trapper runes and preparation skills in their place. Well except for shadow trap. That beloved trap was burned at the stake because of it's witchcraft way of teleporting a thief 10,000 units, stealthed for 5 sec with 10 stacks of might. Great for killing noobs try to take the sentry south of bay near entrance to sw camp.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Bern.9613

[Chips.7968]

20 minutes ago, Bern.9613 said:

IWhy do so many thieves defend stealth? Oh, ummmm, because the only power skill comes from the attack from STEALTH. Like back stab, from stealth, death's judgement, once again, from stealth, tactical strike, yep, from stealth, hook strike, ya got it, from stealth. So, now, do you know why a thief defends stealth?

If we keep the people commenting in the Thief part of forums, actually playing thief, then maybe the misinformation and bias bs would stop. 

Wait, tactical strike, hook strike and surprise shot are the "ONLY POWER SKILL" for sword, staff and short bow respectively?

Power skill!? Really?!

Hook strike may enable you to do dmg (as does tactical strike, especially combined with sigils), due to cc - but listing them as direct power skills?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Chips.7968

[Bern.9613]

3 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

Wait, tactical strike, hook strike and surprise shot are the "ONLY POWER SKILL" for sword, staff and short bow respectively?

Power skill!? Really?!

Hook strike may enable you to do dmg (as does tactical strike, especially combined with sigils), due to cc - but listing them as direct power skills?

Tactical strike, yep got over 8k, hook strike, have to admit haven't played dd staff for a very long time, surprise shot, meh nothing on short bow is powerful. And yes, strikes from stealth are consistently strong power strikes.

[Zacchary.6183]

8 hours ago, kai.5149 said:

since thief has no cds .... )

See, this is how anyone who regularly visits the thief forum immediately knows you're disingenuous.

[Chips.7968]

Hook strike dmg 4. Surprise shot is nothing special. 

Short bow 2, regularly hits for 6k. 

 

I've never managed to get tactical strike hit for 8k - and given the baseline dmg is about 1/3-1/4 of a backstab... wondering how.

It's not a proper test, but loading a test golem with 20 vuln is still 1/3rd of the 8k you claim. Not saying it's impossible, just it should be a *normal* value not edge cases.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Chips.7968

[Bern.9613]

14 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

I've never managed to get tactical strike hit for 8k - and given the baseline dmg is about 1/3-1/4 of a backstab... wondering how.

Try this build in wvw. Warning though, it's pretty much all or nothing

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQxjlNw2YQMJmJW2WrvKA-zVRYiBPH1sCJ2Eo2QoiKwkDQA7h3R1MAA-w

[Zacchary.6183]

8 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

What you're seeing here isn't Thief being weak, it's Thief hitting what was considered "mechanical superiority" too early and as a result when every other class are given options that catch up to them, their mechanical edge is stripped away to reveal what a fundamentally simplistic class design with no thought around proper balancing results in. 

Think about it. Why do you think so many Thief side arguments defend Stealth so much, despite it being such a proven toxic variable in the PvP scene, so much so that even Rangers, Engis and Trapper Rune users get so much flak for it? It's because Thief fundamentally breaks the moment Stealth is removed from the equation. There are several other things about Thief that just snaps like a twig when tweaked just a little bit, like Ini cost (everyone remembers of the SB5 meltdown) and Steal being the single most loaded skill in the entire game, being able to generate to 10~ effects in a single button press on a 17s cooldown. But without all these, Thief just doesn't function. If a class needs really toxic or borderline busted variables to walk, maybe it's time to perform that much needed operation and rework Thief. 

Thief will never improve if it doesn't play by the same rules as the others, because you either risk having it being way too strong, or you do a little tweaking and the class falls apart. 

Rev used to be like Thief, playing with different rules, having really busted skills on the reasoning that it costs Energy, but look how far Rev has fallen in the competitive scene. Thief is slowly treading the ground that Rev has walked before. 

Yes, thief is overpowered mechanically. That doesn't mean it isn't manageable, but the simple fact that it plays differently and requires different tactics to perform is the reason why people have trouble with it. And on top of that, this disparity attracts players with more situational awareness, resource management skill and tactical sense than the average player because that is the only way a person can excel at it. So out of the box, a good thief has an advantage in spite of the numerous nerfs it has incurred, but is a frail profession to balance because its borderline useless to the average player outside very niche situation. So when thief gets nerfed again, it filters out the lower skilled thieves and leaves the more skilled thieves to continue to wreck face. The cycle has continued on like this since launch. This is why thief has a high skill floor and ceiling.

My overarching problem is that there are too many people getting blasted, and instead of coming up with a solution they come with calls for deletion/nerfs. At which point, I consider the lack of forethought as a symptom of the real cause of players' plight with the profession. This can be somewhat remedied by just playing the profession, but also leads to another issue.

Let's just say Anet deletes thief. Some of the thief population uninstalls, others find another main. Those good thieves who decided to stay eventually start wrecking the very same people who complained about thief with their new main because they are more easily capable of hitting the skill ceiling with their new main. What then? Are the ones who are getting wrecked going to realize there may have been a skill issue or are they going to complain that X is OP because it killed them?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Zacchary.6183

[Chips.7968]

33 minutes ago, Bern.9613 said:

Try this build in wvw. Warning though, it's pretty much all or nothing

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQxjlNw2YQMJmJW2WrvKA-zVRYiBPH1sCJ2Eo2QoiKwkDQA7h3R1MAA-w

Eww, deadeye (I dislike rifle), but I'll check it out at some point - tar for the link 🙂

Edited February 9, 2023 by Chips.7968

[itspomf.9523]

On 2/21/2022 at 4:37 PM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Just gonna say this:

In terms of power, SA thief without D/P <<< SA thief with D/P. It's the combination of SA and leaps through smoke fields that people are usually complaining about, SA for virtually any other spec or weaponset is actually fine. 

 

It's ALMOST like if we capped stealth off combo fields -- or eliminated it completely -- this one source of so much pain would just ... disappear.

Pun intended.