What are your overall positive + negative thoughts regarding EOD?

[kettering.6823]

Positives:

- I really love the story so far. I haven't finished it yet, but so far so good. I've loved all the new characters they introduced.

- The new maps are absolutely beautiful. I've spent so much time just wandering around exploring. There are so many little things to find and experience hidden around, it's wonderful.

- I personally really like (most of) the elite specs. It took me a bit to warm up to Untamed but I'm enjoying it now. I understand a lot of people were disappointed by them but me, I like them.

- (Inb4 confused emoji) I was really happy to see Yao, a nonbinary character, treated just like any other character that just happened to use they/them pronouns. 

- I love the jade bot tbh. It's cute and so far I like the utilities it brings. 

 

Negatives:

- Buggy but that's to be expected 

- No idea why they made the shift from everything being account-wide to making your Jade Bot character bound

- Disappointed with the new armor skins. I dislike almost all of them. 

- I honestly don't like fishing very much. I was expecting to like it more, but it's just not for me. 

- Skiffs are also kind of a wet fart but I was never excited about them. It's a real 'whatever' addition. I'm still just gonna use my skimmer.

- Why did we get an ugly Wallow and not a Kirin for a pet! My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

• Positives:

1. Story - acceptable I guess, there were annoying things here and there though.
2. Maps - they're nice and beatiful, but annoying af to navigate (Echovald Wilds).
3. Music - I've turned on volume in game after like 5 years and I've heard something so I guess that's a good thing.
4. Characters in story are more expressive.
5. Visual presentation in story.
6. I've only bugged once in story that forced me to relog (started from the point I've left).

Mehs:

1. Masteries - they're just novelties, no value in long run like most HoT ones, some are useful a bit, but still meh.
2. Events - something is really off with them, they're really boring, lacking and even annoying.
3. Achievements - more grind for no reason or fun...
4. Exploring said maps - sometimes I wanted to just throw my monitor through the window, but I've remembered that it costs money so I've stopped myself from doing so.

Negatives:

1. After story - I'm not condi user so I don't enjoy that type of content shoved into my throat.
2. Emptiness - maps are completely empty of players, like you really need tryhard to find some people around OR they're full, nothing between.
3. Greedy achievements - artificially extending time to obtain abc things by forcing players in very specific content + gold sink here and there.
4. Elite specializations - they're so bad and unfinished that Tempest compared to them look like complete finished package of thousand hours put into design of one trait.
5. Repeatable hearts - just enough.
6. Tutorial - that should be put into core Tyria after leaving first story instance, like what?

I haven't done strike missions, since they're type of content I despise the most so can't say anything about them.

[Katastroff.1045]

I like pretty much of it, the diversity between the 3 map is really outstanding. The story is great. I was flabergasted the first time i used the taxi raptor and i love those.
If you come directly from the vanilla GW, you'll find HoT a walk in the park compare to EoD. But i dont mind,its makes the content a bit more challenging.

Now, those zip lines.... do my minions really need to vanish everytime i use that gizmo?
I want the cooldown on my minions remove if aneth wont fix this. For now i avoid them like plague and use my skyscale to roam around, but that really need fixing.

[Shaaba.5672]

4 hours ago, Exxcalibur.6203 said:

Mate, legend. 100% agree, esp the woke comment. I don't who sleeps with who but i dont need it in my face allt he time. NO ONE CARES!

I know right, when Rox mentioned her boyfriend I was so disgusted.

[MagicalLeaf.1307]

+ Love the Maps, absolutely visually stunning.

+The soundtrack is literally 10/10

+ Love most of the specialisations (Faves so far are: Mechanist, Bladesworn, Spectre and Habringer)

+I enjoyed the story, wouldn't say it's the best ever, but I still did enjoy it. 

+ I actually really like the Legendaries (Even if they're all technically the same idea, and I would have preferred ancient canthan inspired legendaries, thematically based off of ancient eastern Asian weapons.) 

+ The masteries I also enjoyed as well. 

 

- Jade Bots are quite 'meh', nice addition, but I was really hoping for a drone mode you can use everywhere in the overworld, i wanted to take pretty screenshots. 

- Aborstone is so big in a bad way, it's just empty even with the full mastery

- Untamed...

- The story did feel a bit short :

Spoiler

I do wish there was more development between Aurene and Soo-Won, I wanted to learn more about the creation of the elder dragons, Soo-Wons thoughts on her children and how they've acted (Trying to control/overtake the world in literally every dlc ever). I really wanted to just know more about her, but all we got was she's nice and then turned evil. I will admit though I did sob like a baby at the end, Aurene and Soo-Wons voice lines were delivered amazingly. 

 

[Turin.6921]

On 3/3/2022 at 8:17 AM, Aodlop.1907 said:

Have been too busy to even launch the game this week. I'm interested in you guys' opinions so far!

You came to the wrong place. People come here to complain about everything  (justified or no). The rest of the community is just enjoying the expansion. Not even half of what you see in this thread is accurate.  

Edited March 6, 2022 by Turin.6921

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Ok honest oppinion, and I include full ignore of the end map meta since that would cloud my judgement on the rest of the content. I think my thoughts on that is clear enough.

Positives: 
- Really enjoyed most of the story, albeit it felt short. Some parts were less enjoyable, but overall a massive positive. 
- The maps are great, all are elevated. As a Griffon Flyer, I love those maps. Intend to do a lot of flying in those maps.
- Diversity in maps and styles. Specially love Echowald and Arborstone. I do hope Arborstone will receive more love in the future, maxed out it is still quiet empty for it's size. I do think the size is correct for the type of architecture (Am a big fan of Gothic Architecture) but all that space cries for more content.
- I can fully see why skiffs are not for everyone, but I do like them. Specially with a group. Solo I usually grab my skimmer offcourse.
- Isle of Reflection Guild Hall, love it.

Meh:
- Jade Bots, I expected more to be honest. The remote use for example is too limited. Only where stations are. Some skills handy at times, but I would not miss them if they are removed.
- Fishing, I expected a bit more fun. After a while you forget about it.

Negatives:
- Lack of variety in content, where are the adventures? What happened to them? Look at the maps... not a single griffon course? Beetle race? Not even a Skiff course?
- Fishing and Bot usage per character, not account. This is extremely annoying. Now you need to get multiples or swap constantly.
- Locked content behind Meta's instead of story, I do not understand it. (Leaving the whole difficulty of said meta alone) I expected the same as in PoF: Finish story unlock. 
- Canach... new voice cannot catch the sarcasm I love so much 😞

Thoughts:
- Arborstone could've been a great guild hall as well. Missed opportunity? 
- On dragon's end meta: Split in an easier Open World version that allows for organizing with whomever is in map and a split off instance for hardcorse players would be a solution maybe for all players?
- Why has the overall map grown so dramatically? Seems like there suddenly is room for dozens upon dozens of more maps...
- Maybe ad Jade Bot Station to VIP areas like Mistlock etc? And LA?

These are my personal oppinions and thoughts. Overal (ignoring my frustration again on the end map meta) I give it a solid 8 out of 10. 

[Switish.9417]

Factions was my introduction into the MMO genre and has a very special place in my heart, so I was overly excited when they announced Cantha coming back in GW2. Unfortunately, I am not totally enamoured by the expac, but I am over all enjoy it:

Pros -

• Some maps, especially Seitung Province, felt very true to the original game and are beautiful
• Skiffs and fishing are a really nice way to spend down time and I might be addicted
• Dragon's end meta is fun (but also part of my cons)
• Story actually felt engaging for once (if a little rushed at the end), I usually try to breeze through it like I did in Icebrood. The final back in Tyria was lovely and made me a bit teary
• I just want to hug all the jade bots and fluffy owl looking Tengu
• Strikes are quite a step up compared to some old ones
• Returning characters were very welcome 
• There is plenty here that leaves a lot to play around with in the next living world season

Cons -

• Navigating the new maps can be a bit of a headache, Kaineng especially and Echovald kinda felt like Tangled Depths 2.0 
• Music doesnt seem as memorable as the originals, there are some nice tracks but nothing really stands out to me
• Maps feel sparse and empty
• Meta on other maps besides Dragon's End are pretty bland and the rewards are lacking
• Im probably on my 10th attempt on Dragon's End meta. The time required and coordination is a little too much right now, though with the latest patch it seems more doable
• I wish there was more interaction/time with the Sea Dragon
• Some of the dialogue is a little too on the nose and kinda took me out of the moment
• Please for the love of god add a tackle bag or something for fishing, ahhhhhhh my inventory
• New Elite specs are mostly just meh and rushed, Im honestly thinking about switching from my Ranger main at this point. I really wish we got some reincarnation of the Assassin and Ritualist, but alas...

Overall its a solid expac, but for some reason its not giving me the nostalgia I was hoping for. Im not entirely sure why. It also feels like Cantha in GW2 is the American interpretation of Asian culture, whereas Factions felt more authentic to it. Thats just my personal thought though. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Switish.9417

[fixit.7189]

it's ok so far. kinda under whelming compared to other x-pacs but w/e.

i guess.

Edited March 6, 2022 by fixit.7189

[Redfeather.6401]

I don't like the elite, so I'm honestly getting bored of the game as there is so much fighting and every fight is the exact same thing I've been done since 2017. I guess I could make an alt, but I'm not into that. I'm going to try another game for a while and see if I just need a break.

[Kalocin.5982]

While enjoyable, it's pretty obvious it needed more time in the oven. I think they were forced to rush it out after the layoffs and it shows in a lot of ways when compared to PoF. It's just lacking a lot in polish, a lot of bugs and short cuts taken. I do like the final zone, wish it was separated from the meta so I could take my time in it without hindering others.

 

I like what's there but just like IBS and the earlier bits of LS4 it really shows that Anet needs to take a bit more time and to stop rushing releases. All of the elements of a great expansion are there, they're all just hindered by something else

[Minjin.8259]

Keeping in mind these are my opinions and if someone disagrees that's fine.

 

On the positive:

I think the new maps are beautifully done.  I was hesitant over Echovald, thinking it was going to be Tangled Depths 2.0 but then I realized if you stick to the paths you can get where you need to go fairly easily.   I personally enjoyed the story line.  Completing the story line was doable.  Weight of the world was a little difficult to figure out but I got there.  I think the jade bots are cute, and at this stage somewhat helpful.  They will probably be more so later on after I level it up and get more skills for it.  I really like the taxi system.  

 

On the negative:  I am super disappointed in fishing.  My computer is getting a bit old and with inflation I can't afford to buy a new one right now.  So it's really hard for me to catch fish.  Also I have hand and neck issues...so I was looking forward to something fun and relaxing.  I do not find fishing fun or relaxing and discovering that you have to catch certain fish to make some of the weapons is annoying.  Even though I understand how it works, have it leveled up a bit, and am using bait...I still can't reel in the fish most of the time.  To me fishing should be an outside activity from the main game.  If you want to give hardcore fishers special achievements or things they can catch from fishing as a bonus, fine but don't integrate it into things we need to get like ascended/legendary weapons.   Also while I like the new meta in Dragon's End, it's frustrating to spend all that time and fail repeatedly based on things you can't control like RNG or other random players.  Especially when you get nothing for a failed attempt.  I also think losing the battery charge when you change maps is unnecessary.  And I think a few more well placed anvils and a bank in Archstone would be good.

 

I like some of the new specs and some not as much.  I have always mained engi so that was great, but my second main is a revenant and I found that to be kind of meh.

 

Two of the biggest selling points of the expansion was fishing and getting your turtle mount.  I paid for the expansion on several accounts when it first came out because it never occurred to me based on my experience with the rest of the game that I wouldn't be able to do those things, and I can't do either thing as it stands now.  It feels like a waste.  

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I liked the story apart from the parts that felt designed to make me feel like a tourist, the aesthetics were all really great and I like the design of a lot of the elite specs even if some of them falter mechanically. Negatives would be.. fishing is lacking the serenity and relaxed nature of fishing in most games despite it sort of being advertised as a relaxing thing? Just doesn't feel intuitive, and I kind of wish the masteries applied to alts better. Some of the metas are slightly overtuned too but that's a less major one, and I wish the maps were less designed around the player having a skyscale I suppose. Kaineng might be my favorite map yet though as far as getting around and aesthetics, I love magitech urban settings. 

[Rivindor.7258]

As a GW1 veteran with over 4k hours played and most of that being in Factions, the return to Cantha was something I dreamt of ever since GW2 was launched almost ten years ago. I have not yet completed the expansion in its entirety but so far I am very disappointed. It feels like the lore is not being taken seriously enough anymore and I'm finding it so hard to get immersed. The writers have an inability to remove their biases, and because of that the game world feels cheapened, almost like it's being used to prove a point. The language used is jarring for a fantasy game. It's little things such as terms like 'under-privileged', who talks like that in a fantasy setting? And then a heart quest where I'm going around knocking on doors and slaughtering people in Kaineng city and I'm just sitting there wondering if my character is becoming a villain. The expansion also has an eerie creepy feel to it too. Perhaps due to rarely seeing other players, but Kaineng city despite being visually beautiful, is an uncomfortable setting and I can't figure out why.

 

Seitung island was also beautiful and I 100% mapped it. However, I don't see any reason to return to the map after doing so. The meta event does not feel too well organized for some reason. I don't think I'll return to Kaineng afterwards either. I think I will progress through this expansion as a tourist and sightsee, but when I have finished doing so, I will return to HoT meta events because I love those and the metas flow so well with great rewards. I may be wrong, but I think many players like me will feel like tourists in Cantha, and then once the trip is over, return to old gw2 content and forget all about it. And to me that is kinda sad as I had high hopes. We'll see how the rest of the expansion goes.

 

Another odd thing is there is very little combat. I can wander through Kaineng for ages and rarely come across anything. I think this adds to the tourist vibe I get.

 

Cliffs:

- Beautiful maps

- Eerie/weird feeling to them

- Immersion-breaking moments

- Little replayability

Edited March 6, 2022 by Rivindor.7258

[Doctor Hide.6345]

1 hour ago, Minjin.8259 said:

On the negative:  I am super disappointed in fishing.  My computer is getting a bit old and with inflation I can't afford to buy a new one right now.  So it's really hard for me to catch fish.  Also I have hand and neck issues...so I was looking forward to something fun and relaxing.  I do not find fishing fun or relaxing and discovering that you have to catch certain fish to make some of the weapons is annoying.  Even though I understand how it works, have it leveled up a bit, and am using bait...I still can't reel in the fish most of the time.  To me fishing should be an outside activity from the main game.  If you want to give hardcore fishers special achievements or things they can catch from fishing as a bonus, fine but don't integrate it into things we need to get like ascended/legendary weapons.   Also while I like the new meta in Dragon's End, it's frustrating to spend all that time and fail repeatedly based on things you can't control like RNG or other random players.  Especially when you get nothing for a failed attempt.  I also think losing the battery charge when you change maps is unnecessary.  And I think a few more well placed anvils and a bank in Archstone would be good.

 

I am curious on something, and I don't mean any offense when I ask this. I just have been wondering on why people fail the fishing a lot. My brain doesn't get the meter reasoning and keeping track because combat involves more button presses and spam than the minigame does. So, I don't really see how it is harder then normal combat. Again, not trying to be rude here since my brain really does not get that reasoning. I am genuinely curious.

[Minjin.8259]

1 minute ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

I am curious on something, and I don't mean any offense when I ask this. I just have been wondering on why people fail the fishing a lot. My brain doesn't get the meter reasoning and keeping track because combat involves more button presses and spam than the minigame does. So, I don't really see how it is harder then normal combat. Again, not trying to be rude here since my brain really does not get that reasoning. I am genuinely curious.

But what you said is exactly why.  If you have hand issues, or wrist issues....pushing the same two buttons is repetitive motion.  In a fight you are pushing lots of keys.  So you are moving your hands and arms more.  Also having an older computer at this point it's laggy and I can't keep up with the bar.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

7 minutes ago, Minjin.8259 said:

But what you said is exactly why.  If you have hand issues, or wrist issues....pushing the same two buttons is repetitive motion.  In a fight you are pushing lots of keys.  So you are moving your hands and arms more.  Also having an older computer at this point it's laggy and I can't keep up with the bar.

 

Ah, ok. So it more has to do with the lack of movement in the hands and wrist. Not the actual presses themselves in a way. Thank you for the response. 🙂 Oh, and I get the PC issue on that. I can understand that one pretty well. I have been there before...

Would it be easier for people then if they made it to where the mouse can also control the bar for you to keep track? Or would that cause the same repetitive issues?

 

[Minjin.8259]

7 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

Ah, ok. So it more has to do with the lack of movement in the hands and wrist. Not the actual presses themselves in a way. Thank you for the response. 🙂 Oh, and I get the PC issue on that. I can understand that one pretty well. I have been there before...

Would it be easier for people then if they made it to where the mouse can also control the bar for you to keep track? Or would that cause the same repetitive issues?

 

Well you are still squeezing the mouse.  I know people don't want it to be made easier...and I can understand and appreciate that.  But most MMO's I have played have easier or even afk fishing.  Now afk fishing is bad because then people bot.  But last night I was trying to catch an Amber Trout for the mace...and out of 25 bait I managed to get 2 fish.  So of course my enthusiasm waned greatly, especially when it's interspersed with endless meta fails.  Look at it like this...some people are great at jumping puzzles and some can't do them at all.  It's the same with this.  The difference is people can help you with JP, but I don't see how they can help with fishing.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Minjin.8259
Added comments.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

2 minutes ago, Minjin.8259 said:

Well you are still squeezing the mouse.  I know people don't want it to be made easier...and I can understand and appreciate that.  But most MMO's I have played have easier or even afk fishing.  Now afk fishing is bad because then people bot.  But last night I was trying to catch an Amber Trout for the mace...and out of 25 bait I managed to get 2 fish.

 

Hmm. True. I can see the finger press issue while holding mouse causing issues as well. I do sympathize with you and the pain others are feeling here. I just don't know what the solution is because I don't want afk fishing either, but I also don't want it too easy. And the design they can't do FF14 style with different skills and such since only 5 buttons. I really don't know what the solution is here to satisfy both camps.

[Minjin.8259]

3 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

Hmm. True. I can see the finger press issue while holding mouse causing issues as well. I do sympathize with you and the pain others are feeling here. I just don't know what the solution is because I don't want afk fishing either, but I also don't want it too easy. And the design they can't do FF14 style with different skills and such since only 5 buttons. I really don't know what the solution is here to satisfy both camps.

In my humble opinion it's fine if they keep it hard and you can just choose not to do it.  But in the case of the mace, if I want it I have to catch an amber trout.  Take those requirements out of the fishing or add another way to get it.  Don't make fishing necessary for getting items like weapons or gear.   Make the items you get cosmetic or a title or something that doesn't effect the rest of the game play.  And yes I know I can craft a different mace, but of course you want the new one, it's part of the new maps.  But don't put items like weapons or gear behind a mini game wall, and don't put the turtle behind a meta wall.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Minjin.8259

[Doctor Hide.6345]

1 minute ago, Minjin.8259 said:

In my humble opinion it's fine if they keep it hard and you can just choose not to do it.  But in the case of the mace, if I want it I have to catch an amber trout.  Take those requirements out of the fishing.  Don't make fishing necessary for getting items like weapons or gear.   Make the items you get cosmetic or a title or something that doesn't effect the rest of the game play.  And yes I know I can craft a different mace, but of course you want the new one, it's part of the new maps.  But don't put items like weapons or gear behind a mini game wall, and don't put the turtle behind a meta wall.

 

I understand the need for fashion and such with the mace and turtle mount. So I would not complain if they removed the fishing requirements from the specialization collections and replaced it with a generic heart one again. That seems reasonable to me. And most of the fishing stuff is cosmetic anyways, so it would just add more to it.

[Minjin.8259]

Just now, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

I understand the need for fashion and such with the mace and turtle mount. So I would not complain if they removed the fishing requirements from the specialization collections and replaced it with a generic heart one again. That seems reasonable to me. And most of the fishing stuff is cosmetic anyways, so it would just add more to it.

Well they also need to remember that if people can't get the turtle mount and give up they are hurting themselves in future turtle skin sales.  As for the mace, yes it's cosmetic but it's also ascended and I don't have a decent mace, so of course I wanted the one I needed for the new spec.  Sure again I can craft one.  Hmm can you craft the new ascended weapons without having to fish?  You know I am not even sure.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

2 minutes ago, Minjin.8259 said:

Well they also need to remember that if people can't get the turtle mount and give up they are hurting themselves in future turtle skin sales.  As for the mace, yes it's cosmetic but it's also ascended and I don't have a decent mace, so of course I wanted the one I needed for the new spec.  Sure again I can craft one.  Hmm can you craft the new ascended weapons without having to fish?  You know I am not even sure.

 

If it follows all others then no. You need to get the achievement for it to craft it and the skin.

Edit:Not craft. I meant to actually get it. It's late night typing. heh

Edited March 6, 2022 by Doctor Hide.6345

[Minjin.8259]

16 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

If it follows all others then no. You need to get the achievement for it to craft it and the skin.

Edit:Not craft. I meant to actually get it. It's late night typing. heh

One of the things I dearly love about this game is that, where there are people who can't do a thing...and there always are for one reason or another...you can get or give help.  If I can't do a JP there is a mesmer who is pro at it that will help, you are on a ele and can't do harder HP's I am there for you on my rev to kick butt.  But with this, they took that away.  I really wish they hadn't have.

[Sernius Alathar.6538]

Okay so I'll get the good out of the way first.
- Pretty faithful lore to Factions, I found references everywhere including some stuff about elite areas like Urgoz in GW1, etc.
- The place is pretty kitten impressive to look at.
- I like the mechanics, the trimmed down use of keys (compared to PoF where u need keys just to change your underwear), Hero Points aren't obnoxious like HoT guarded by champs. Most of the new things to do are all pretty simple to get used to

The Negatives
- The maps are pretty, but empty. There is nothing to do other than story, I expected mount races, boat races, hell, jade tech JP's and stuff. Besides the standard missions, I feel like a spectator looking at the creative teams "project" without having any interaction. 
- Overtuned enemies and events: It feels weird to smack a standard enemy for what feels like forever to kill them when I know I am doing ALOT of damage, like how fat are these mofo's, the scaling could be a bug but it definitely feels off. And casual patrol missions are always champions, which is fine, until they overlap with groups of 8-10 vet and elite enemies, then it's just obnoxious because as always the loot is trash.
- Meta event rewards are garbage. Straight up, it's been 8years, the best meta loot events were in Heart of Thorns, they actually rewarded players properly for their time invested and made the game fun and worthwhile to play (why the F. they are not using these mechanics moving forward boggles my mind). The entire EoD expansion is for the story, they do not have tiered rewards, or participation level reward tracking, so that as you progress you actually get a minimum of value from the time you waste on these events. Nope whoever is in charge decided, F. you guys, we don't care, go play something else. 
- Apparently nobody in Cantha uses storage, because the only place u can use the bank or TP etc is from Arborstone or using a instance scroll. Just a weird choice, and a tedious one, like kitten, put a jeweler next to jade bot benches it's not that kitten hard. 
- There is a shocking lack of information in game, I know there is a balance between hand holding and basic human comprehension, but having 0 is quite literally useless. E.g. They have these leviathan events, they don't say how you damage them, you are just meant to know you need mastery of skiffs upto depth charges to break the armor. Sorry anet seems my Telepathy was off that day.
- Mounts ruin the maps - Now this is a bold claim, and hear me out. The game has all this jade tech utilisation, gliding boosters, zip lines, the skiff etc. But nobody uses any of it, we have skyscales, who gives a kitten if we can use any of that other stuff. I feel exploration of the cities would be much more engaging if they removed mount usability. (I dunno, make a reason anet, Cantha wants mounta in quarantine so they don't bring any foreign contaminants to the country).
- Personal gripe, but the expansion cost alot, for 4 areas. No joke, I finished the story and was like, "is this it?" I paid the collectors for a glorified DLC. The time it took me to finish Cantha I was still having a grand old time exploring the first area or two of PoF, it feels so kitten rushed. 
- Last (but not really because I could continue for days), I wish anet would learn that we all f*ing hate time gates, and the new legendaries are gated to 20 weeks each because of a certain item you need that's only tradeable daily. This sh*t needs to stop, and they need to to just tone down the goddamn grind in this game, most games as they reach their conclusion start to make things simpler and easier, but whoever is in charge of rewards across the game, needs to be sacked, sorry, 8yrs and we still have pointless gating, come on.