*SPOILER* confused about the ending

[DanAlcedo.3281]

7 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

I guess maybe there are some plot holes within that or maybe our misunderstandings about it with the small amount of void info we got. If the void is complete chaos why was Soo-Won ever separate from it in the first place? Why is she the exception? Did she come from the mists into this world that was a ball of chaos (like fifth element) and enact her plan? I guess she's lucky they can digest magical energy. She's also just going to say oh well boohoo they all are going insane so I'll be a terrible and absent parent and never tell any other creatures on Tyria about what's goin on ever? Even Wooden Potatoes does not love that mother is Soo-Won and I kind of agree.

Powerfull beings traveling from Universe to Universe and through the Mist is nothing special.

Soo-Won being born from the mist or just coming from a different world would be both 100% normal in Guildwars.

 

I dont think shes lucky.  Many powerfull beings can use magic.

Soo-Won had the problem only being attuned to Water.

 

About Mother being Soo-Won.  The reality is, this was propably not planned from the start but Anet just want the Dragon story done.

This version of the story just ends it quicker.

[Desh.7028]

30 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

Ankka could have been a good character and her story was told well from a technical perspective. I'm sure she has her reasons for being so nihilistic but I don't think the story did a good job of explaining why. 

 

That actually is very heavily hinted at at some earlier points in the story and it's the result of her base personality and experiences in the Mists which affected the 4 named Aetherblades very differently. Renyak also isn't the picture of mental stability and Ivan just held on to his Dredge core principles and fierce loyalty. Mai arguably also lost it but was on the mend when exploring Cantha and herself in Cantha, her apartment, Ms. Briar and drinking habits though hint at some small psychological problems persisting.

What Ankka says in some part also makes more sense than one might initially think. She's off the rails of course but the points she made while inside the reactor shouldn't just be dismissed per default.

 

35 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

I think they very clearly shoved it in because they wanted to be done with the elder dragons.

 

Absolutely. Scarlett Briar I believe was a huge success because she's an actual person. Trying to personifying Jormag with more voice acting and the Elder Dragon being big on gender as we know it was at least at times slightly weird.

 

38 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

Echovald in general this expansion really got shafted on story. 

 

It has the most collections (or rather collection style achievements) though afaik.

 

39 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

Tetra.

 

She's a pretty nice anti-villain if there is such a thing.

 

I was quite happy with Canach and Sayida's friendship ... friendlyness-ship?

Sayida to me is a really nice humorous character lightening up the mood without ever being really ridiculous and I love that she pops back up now and then. Since with all that we have done as it seems we still don't have our own air ship we also sometimes need her as a taxi from time to time.

Whatever the kitten was Canach wearing in Echovald though?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

15 hours ago, Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:

but doesnt this mean that:

1120-1165     Soo-won wakes up

1219               Zhaitan awakes causes tidal wave, soowon goes to cantha

1270              Quaggan and krait leave the ocean because something dangerous

 

where is the problem, seems to me chtulhu emerged in the ocean between 1219 and 1270 and drove the quaggan away with maybe tenticle ghidora minions (hydra, tentacle, dragonlike)

The dialogue implied, at least to me and apparently to Kalavier.1097, that the krait and quaggan left at (roughly) the same time that Soo-Won left.

Which then gives us two dates for Soo-Won leaving for Cantha. 1219 and 1270.

8 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

This whole bit had me confused. What does this plot even mean? That in the beginning of the planet Tyria it was just void and Soo Won? Did Soo Won create all life everywhere? Where did Soo Won come from?

Was the planet here and she just created life on the planet?

This whole story beat getting like a few lines of dialogue in one story instance was one of the worst story telling decisions I've ever seen. In game, in movies, anywhere. I get they wanted to be done with the elder dragon plot but you can't just drop a bomb like that and then... give it a 10 minute story instance worth of build up and immediate conclusion.

Soo-Won talks a little bit more about it at Mother's Lament after the Dragon's End meta. Just basically saying that spot is where she created her five children and watched the world form from.

But yeah, it's... weird. Positing her as the creator of the world without really going into details. Even the 'promised details' after a successful Dragon's End meta is very, very limited in details.

Quote

Why am I watching some emo Asura that just wants to watch the world burn when I could be reading about the very origin of the planet itself. Why am I waiting on a passport and doing jade tech events when I could be fighting void and seeing reality break down around me more and more as the story progresses through each map?

TBH, I rather like Ankka's story and that felt very nicely paced. Could have been a bigger menace in her finale with the Aetherblade Armada still being a thing, rather than taken out at the beginning, but that's a minor complaint. As for "seeing reality break down around me more and more as the story progresses" does occur, but it's "hidden" (not really) - while you're in Acts 3 and 4, void outbreaks occur throughout Kaineng and Echovald, and there's an achievement to find five of them (I counted seven in Echovald, not counting the meta finale event).

Act 4 felt kinda pointless to me. A rushed wrapping up of loose threads to move onto Act 5, which was over and done in an instant. I think EoD would have seriously benefited from an extra map or at least a full act for Act 5. The Minister Li / White Falcon and Joon distractions were just... well, needless distractions. It was said that htey had to cut out some dialogue stuff that was planned, but I really hope it wasn't Act 5 and ED origins stuff they cut out - because if  so, they should have cut out something else.

 

Hopefully the Gen3 achievements/collections to get the weapons themed to Zhaitan and other ED will delve into what's missing about this.

Quote

I could handle that if we got more interesting story throughout Cantha, given we have so much history there. But instead they decided to go with not only human factions, but some of the most boring human factions to date. Jade Brotherhood and Aetherblades. I know people like the Aetherblades and were happy to see Scarlet, but as a fan of Aetherblades are you even satisfied with the story handled them? 

Honestly? Yes. I think the Aetherblade part of EoD was the best parts of the expansion, storywise, and am very happy that they finally closed off that loose hook and in such a manner. And I would say the reasons for Ankka's Nihilism was told well - but it's mostly hidden in optional dialogue in the story, not mandatory stuff. Which, to me, is fine. Not everything should be spoon-fed.

Quote

You know who would have been more interesting to get to know? Tetra. Caithe and Canach meeting the wardens and having some unique instances involving them or, for that matter, a surprise Oni strike mission boss. Echovald in general this expansion really got shafted on story. 

I fully agree here, though. Mind you, I've not done all the collection stuff - but one time per account story is not great.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[ukuni.8745]

9 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

This whole bit had me confused. What does this plot even mean? That in the beginning of the planet Tyria it was just void and Soo Won? Did Soo Won create all life everywhere? Where did Soo Won come from?

Was the planet here and she just created life on the planet? 

 

just wanna touch on this point, i very much doubt she created everything but rather originally most things created before the dragons started losing it to void magic would have been more similar to the sylvari.

 

Think of real life before civilization started kicking off we lived like animals with all of our time put into surviving until we started learning stuff like farming and fire, but in this case it would be soo won came along and used void magic (electricity irl) to bring structure that allowed life to flourish and evolve.

 

That's the idea i got at least anyway.

[HotDelirium.7984]

13 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

This whole bit had me confused. What does this plot even mean? That in the beginning of the planet Tyria it was just void and Soo Won? Did Soo Won create all life everywhere? Where did Soo Won come from?

Was the planet here and she just created life on the planet? 

This whole story beat getting like a few lines of dialogue in one story instance was one of the worst story telling decisions I've ever seen. In game, in movies, anywhere. I get they wanted to be done with the elder dragon plot but you can't just drop a bomb like that and then... give it a 10 minute story instance worth of build up and immediate conclusion. 

On Wooden Potatoes, I'd have to agree that it seems like they really don't WANT us talking about it, thinking about it, or doing anykind of deep lore dive. They pieced together breadcumbs they laid out, made them fit, and they want us to just accept the subpar story telling on this one fundamental aspect of the entire franchise and call it a day. 

It's good they can move on from this, but what's next? When you conclude a story this poorly, (just my opinion), then how can we stay invested knowing that at any moment the story we love and are fully involved in can just be hand waved in favor of mediocre character development like Joon - who is a genius like Taimi but stubborn and has little brat fits like Braham. The character they chose to focus on, to me, isn't even that interesting. Few of them are. 

I think the one thing I agreed with WP about most is that they did deliver the story well, technically. It's just that the story they told wasn't good and wound up being a disjointed mess. And they seemed to struggle, more than any other expansion, knowing when to separate the story from the gameplay. There are a lot of neat tie-ins to previous things in the game, from a mechanics perspective. The gameplay of the Soo Won meta incorporates a lot of past mechanics and things we'd seen, like the wave wall being similar to Mordremoth's coil. Fighting the lieutenants on the platform. We have the branded spear mechanic to push the phase with that wave wall. 

They put quite a bit of effort into tying in those mechanics from a gameplay perspective but the actual story with Soo Won was just shoved to the side. 

Why am I watching some emo Asura that just wants to watch the world burn when I could be reading about the very origin of the planet itself. Why am I waiting on a passport and doing jade tech events when I could be fighting void and seeing reality break down around me more and more as the story progresses through each map?

They've done so many interesting things in Season 4 with Kralk and the mists. Having those distorted portions of reality in specific areas in Jahai Bluffs. 

It's just rushed. I know they're way capable of way higher quality story telling and gameplay than this expansion brought. So I don't know if it's just a resource and time issue or if they're just not passionate about the elder dragon story anymore and wanted to do as little as possible relating to it. 

I could handle that if we got more interesting story throughout Cantha, given we have so much history there. But instead they decided to go with not only human factions, but some of the most boring human factions to date. Jade Brotherhood and Aetherblades. I know people like the Aetherblades and were happy to see Scarlet, but as a fan of Aetherblades are you even satisfied with the story handled them? 

Mai was a good character, at least at first. I think Ankka could have been a good character and her story was told well from a technical perspective. I'm sure she has her reasons for being so nihilistic but I don't think the story did a good job of explaining why. 

It was all very... 30 minute episode of Power Rangers to me. With fluff dialogue and voice acting thrown in everywhere to give the illusion of depth. And half the time the dialogue is going on the same time as some ambient npc. At one point there were like 4 different people talking while Rama was talking and honestly, the entirety of Rama's character could have been replaced with anyone from Dragon's Watch and the story wouldn't have suffered in the slightest. 

I mean even Minister Li is just Caudecus to me. They tried to create all these unique characters and spent so much time building their narrative but at the end of the day, most of them just feel like the same characters I've already seen before. 

You know who would have been more interesting to get to know? Tetra. Caithe and Canach meeting the wardens and having some unique instances involving them or, for that matter, a surprise Oni strike mission boss. Echovald in general this expansion really got shafted on story. 

I don't know. People can praise this story all they want but I feel like it was by far the weakest most disjointed mess I've seen to date. When you praise the story are you praising the actual subject matter or are you just praising the fact that they opted for cutscenes and unique ways of handling the camera? Is it the technical application of the story that you think was well done, or do you genuinely think the story was well handled for being the conclusion to a 10 year story arc?

I'm glad they've wiggled their way out of the elder dragon plot but I have serious doubts about their ability to tell an overarching story like this again. Maybe this story could have been better and suffered from the fact that they had to tie in the elder dragon plot, but we could have just focused on Cantha, dragon jade, and left Soo Won to her own living story season. I think they very clearly shoved it in because they wanted to be done with the elder dragons.

The reveal should have been that the VOID was Mother- the original mass of primordial energy that sought to share its abundance with life thus creating the Elder dragons as the starting anchors; not some evil random chaotic blackness.

The Elder dragons are the ones who began to turn greedy with their in-fighting and power consumption. Their magic energy hoarding grew and grew and they started to take more of Mother away from the planet and mainly into themselves. This probably angered her and maybe even led to some insanity from being separated from herself.

Single streams of magic weren't enough to torment the heart of an Elder Dragon but when two or more began to mingle the Mother-Void awareness began to coalesce. It began to manifest and torment the Elder Dragon.

Glint knew this secret and created Aurene (she probably hoped to have more than just the original two) to replace these Elder Dragons eventually. She knew this closed loop system would eventually create enough misery and destruction where the entire system would just eventually annihilate itself.

Having 6 Prismatic Dragons was a comprehensive attempt at fixing the magic imbalances of Tyria and hopefully setting things right for Mother.

[Bast.7253]

On 3/13/2022 at 2:47 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Powerfull beings traveling from Universe to Universe and through the Mist is nothing special.

Soo-Won being born from the mist or just coming from a different world would be both 100% normal in Guildwars.

 

I dont think shes lucky.  Many powerfull beings can use magic.

Soo-Won had the problem only being attuned to Water.

 

About Mother being Soo-Won.  The reality is, this was propably not planned from the start but Anet just want the Dragon story done.

This version of the story just ends it quicker.

Even the fact that she's just attuned to water doesn't make any sense though. Like.. what.. she just made more dragons specifically capable of handling the other domains of magic.. and couldn't do it herself? But she already existed.. when the void existed?

Like, maybe they have an idea but this really just feels like a revelation that deserved far more attention than jade tech. I'm still confused, honestly.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 3/14/2022 at 3:58 AM, HotDelirium.7984 said:

The reveal should have been that the VOID was Mother- the original mass of primordial energy that sought to share its abundance with life thus creating the Elder dragons as the starting anchors; not some evil random chaotic blackness.

From my understanding, Void is no more "evil random chaotic blackness" than the Mists themselves are.

They're the primordial soup that is the combined state of everything. They are "everything together and therefore nothing at all". The black hole singularity, the moment before the big bang, etc. are all parallels.

There's nothing evil, random, nor chaotic about it except where it'd show up as the world breaks apart as it spread. Because it isn't a thinking thing, no more than the Mists is. And it wouldn't make sense for that to be "Mother".

The Dragonvoid, born from the Elder Dragons' personalities imprinting on the Void via the six domains they tried and failed to maintain and were twisted by, was however was evil.

On 3/14/2022 at 3:58 AM, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Single streams of magic weren't enough to torment the heart of an Elder Dragon but when two or more began to mingle the Mother-Void awareness began to coalesce. It began to manifest and torment the Elder Dragon.

Minus the "Mother-" bit, that is exactly what happened by all indication. Thus at the beginning they weren't affected by Torment, but as they consumed from the ley-lines without filtering it out, the other domains seeped in, and torment began to manifest. Over time, the Torment became worse and worse until they reached the stage of being driven to near madness (or actual madness, in at least Kralk's and Primordus' case).

1 hour ago, Bast.7253 said:

Even the fact that she's just attuned to water doesn't make any sense though. Like.. what.. she just made more dragons specifically capable of handling the other domains of magic.. and couldn't do it herself? But she already existed.. when the void existed?

Like, maybe they have an idea but this really just feels like a revelation that deserved far more attention than jade tech. I'm still confused, honestly.

Based on what I understood from the story, in the very beginning Soo-Won was balancing all magic much like Aurene is now. When she created her five children and gave them domains, she kept the Water domain for herself. And once giving those other domains away, she was bound to Water, and could not withstand the other domains anymore.

In other words: once given up, she couldn't take it back.

 

But yeah, End of Dragons has this huge issue where the writing was all about the characters and fancy jadetech aesthetics, without bothering to delve into the hard worldbuilding that defines and explains these things. Tom Abernathy did say in an interview with Deegz that he believed character was more important than story and lore, and that he doesn't think it's important to learn the lore leaving it to other writers to read up on the player wiki as they see fit. But that creates a very shallow and lackluster - and sometimes confusing - worldbuilding. GW1 and early GW2 were solid hard worldbuilding , while Tom's methods is soft worldbuilding, and the two just don't mix. Especially going from hard to soft.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

11 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

Even the fact that she's just attuned to water doesn't make any sense though. Like.. what.. she just made more dragons specifically capable of handling the other domains of magic.. and couldn't do it herself? But she already existed.. when the void existed?

Like, maybe they have an idea but this really just feels like a revelation that deserved far more attention than jade tech. I'm still confused, honestly.

You take the story to seriously. 

Soo-Won is just naturally good with Water. 

And as seen with Aurene, with the right method you can attune a baby dragon to a kind of magic. 

She is just some dragon that showed up one day in our proto universe and was like "Just let me use the building blocks (void magic) I have and     "terraform" myself a plain of existence".

Again, that's nothing extraordinary in the Gw2 universe. 

 

 

[Gibson.4036]

So what I’m getting from this thread is that the writers are making things up as they go along, and players are really good at plastering over the cracks that it causes over time.

is that a pretty good summary?

.

…

😀

Edited March 19, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[HotDelirium.7984]

23 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You take the story to seriously. 

Soo-Won is just naturally good with Water. 

And as seen with Aurene, with the right method you can attune a baby dragon to a kind of magic. 

She is just some dragon that showed up one day in our proto universe and was like "Just let me use the building blocks (void magic) I have and     "terraform" myself a plain of existence".

Again, that's nothing extraordinary in the Gw2 universe. 

 

 

 That is all speculation based on the information we have. We shouldn't have to rely on inference to understand the plot or the world building. I'm not saying spoon feed us every possible explanation but also don't insult our intelligence by handwaving "because magic" to those who have been interested in the lore since GW1. They could have given us enough to satisfy our curiosity without over doing it. Soo-Won is Mother...ok...but the blase way they went about it is very lukewarm and not very wonderous. 

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

So what I’m getting from this thread is that the writers are making things up as they go along, and players are really good at plastering over the cracks that it causes over time.

is that a pretty good summary?

.

…

😀

 

This is true of literally every setting though?

 

I mean, unsure how you are meaning this but it's not a bad thing. 🙂

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

 That is all speculation based on the information we have. We shouldn't have to rely on inference to understand the plot or the world building. I'm not saying spoon feed us every possible explanation but also don't insult our intelligence by handwaving "because magic" to those who have been interested in the lore since GW1. They could have given us enough to satisfy our curiosity without over doing it. Soo-Won is Mother...ok...but the blase way they went about it is very lukewarm and not very wonderous. 

You should though.

Good writing, and good world building for video games, doesn't just blurt out the answers to every mystery directly via dialogue. Good writing and world building gives you what you need to know to understand the plot at a basic level, and leaves most of the really in-depth stuff to be found out via examination of the world, symbolism, and finer details in what is around you.

And no, Anet could have never satisfied the normal person's curiosity because normal people(at least on video game forums) nearly always go for the most extreme level of speculation, when the real answer is nearly always dictated by Occam's Razor, and thus never that extreme of an answer, leaving those kinds of people always dissapointed.

You can see this reaction in other things like Joko, Lazarus, even the Spirits of the Wild, were people spent years making increasingly elaborate(and thus unlikely) theories on how they would be done, and what we got was the most simple answer since thats the most believable.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Gibson.4036]

29 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

This is true of literally every setting though?

 

I mean, unsure how you are meaning this but it's not a bad thing. 🙂

Just as a joke on how seriously some players work to try and find continuity and defend it.

In college, my friends and I made a game of watching and trying to explain continuity holes in the classic Dr Who series over its two and a half decades.

 

[HotDelirium.7984]

9 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You should though.

Good writing, and good world building for video games, doesn't just blurt out the answers to every mystery directly via dialogue. Good writing and world building gives you what you need to know to understand the plot at a basic level, and leaves most of the really in-depth stuff to be found out via examination of the world, symbolism, and finer details in what is around you.

And no, Anet could have never satisfied the normal person's curiosity because normal people(at least on video game forums) nearly always go for the most extreme level of speculation, when the real answer is nearly always dictated by Occam's Razor, and thus never that extreme of an answer, leaving those kinds of people always dissapointed.

You can see this reaction in other things like Joko, Lazarus, even the Spirits of the Wild, were people spent years making increasingly elaborate(and thus unlikely) theories on how they would be done, and what we got was the most simple answer since thats the most believable.

I think its hard to be compelling when they have limited resources. WoodenPotatoes even said "sh*t or get off the pot" when it came to reviewing this story. Braham should not be growing a beard and relaxing....he should have third degree burns on most of his body, suffering from PTSD while trying to see if the Great Spirits are ok- is but one example. Bangar? The people still frozen from Jormag? We only had deaths from minor characters and everybody else is doing just fine...like always... It took them 7 years just to get back to finishing the arc of Marjory grieving her sister.

 We all went into this knowing the dragon cycle was going to end OMG was IT going TO END according to their new direction and campaign as if us the players wanted the dragon stories to be rushed through. Its beyond obvious that Soo-Won wasn't originally Mother but they had to almost reverse engineer this ending because they were mandated to end their cycle in this expansion. It would have been a better twist at the end if it was revealed Soo-Won WAS "Mother" when she controlled all the magic and decided to create the world and share her abundance by giving form to the chaos. Much like a god or angel giving up their divinity to be amongst the mortals.

[Kalavier.1097]

One of the blessings, and curses of GW2 writing is this.

We don't get swamped with unnecessary, side information unrelated to what's going on. We don't hear how Orr is doing when we are busy fighting in the far Shiverpeaks. We don't hear updates about the Charr-human treaty why wading through the heart of the Maguuma. We don't hear how the Krytan politics are playing out while trekking through Elona.

As a side result however, we tend to not hear "how things are going" for areas until we actually head back there. We don't hear about how the spirits are doing in Hoelbrek because well, we literally don't bother heading over there. We don't know what the state of Rata Sum is, partly because we haven't been back in any long term method, and partly Asura don't like to freely share tech or updates. We don't hear a current update on Jormag's frozen because it's not RELEVANT to the story in Cantha. Bangar's health is not RELEVANT. That is why it's unknown.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

I think its hard to be compelling when they have limited resources. WoodenPotatoes even said "sh*t or get off the pot" when it came to reviewing this story. Braham should not be growing a beard and relaxing....he should have third degree burns on most of his body, suffering from PTSD while trying to see if the Great Spirits are ok- is but one example. Bangar? The people still frozen from Jormag? We only had deaths from minor characters and everybody else is doing just fine...like always... It took them 7 years just to get back to finishing the arc of Marjory grieving her sister.

 We all went into this knowing the dragon cycle was going to end OMG was IT going TO END according to their new direction and campaign as if us the players wanted the dragon stories to be rushed through. Its beyond obvious that Soo-Won wasn't originally Mother but they had to almost reverse engineer this ending because they were mandated to end their cycle in this expansion. It would have been a better twist at the end if it was revealed Soo-Won WAS "Mother" when she controlled all the magic and decided to create the world and share her abundance by giving form to the chaos. Much like a god or angel giving up their divinity to be amongst the mortals.

• Why should Braham have third degree burns over his body and be suffering from PTSD when the whole plot was that the Spirits of the Wild were protecting him from such damage in the first place? And they already established the Spirits were ok at the end of IBS, they just need time to fully recover.
• We know what happened to Bangar, he got de-iced and had to be taken to a hospital to be treated for the injuries that caused him. After that hes 100% in jail for his actions, and we really have zero reason to see, or interact with, him again.
• The people frozen by Jormag was covered in the Taimi/Gorrik dialogue between IBS and EoD. Jormag's death has caused a very slow defrosting of these people, but it could be years, if not longer, before they are freed.
• Yeah, it took 7 years to get to Cantha to deal with a plot arc that could only really be dealt with in Cantha. Do you think they would have put Cantha out earlier just to close out the thing with Majory's sister? Its almost people many people don't get closure on big life changing events for years, if not decades, after the fact in real life! Gods! Realism in GW2's writing!
• I don't agree with the idea that its obvious Soo-Won wasn't mother. We have been explicitly told since launch that there are 6 elder dragons, and the Water Dragons has always been without any real detail, lore, or knowledge. They even made its name damaged in the god scrolls just to keep it mysterious. While Mother as a concept wasn't likely a thing in Anet's mind until LWS4, I am 100% certain the water dragon was meant to be mother from that point. Whats more likely? That they were they going to introduce a SUPAH SEKRET 7TH ELDAH DRAYGON! that no one had heard about before, and had never been mentioned anywhere else in the lore, or that the 6th Elder Dragon we knew nothing about was going to be it? Occams' Razor suggests the simplest answer is the correct one. People even pointed out right as Kralkatorrik said mother at the end of LWS4 you could hear ocean waves, and thus it was likely that the water dragon was mother.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. People taking really simple things, and trying to concoct elaborate conspiracies to make them more complex then they need to be(or ever were) and then making up massive copeium to try to explain why it didn't go the way they wanted, when nothing suggested it was ever going to go that way.

On another note, whats rushed about any of these dragon stories? Its been nearly 10 years since GW2 came out. Most MMOs dont even make it to 10 years of active content development in the first place. GW2's story is the exact opposite of rushed. Its overly long to the point that it was always seriously questionable if they were ever going to finish it.

And all of the dragons got pretty much equal amounts of content as is. Each of the Elder Dragons had "teaser" content, where we fight the dragons minions in a significant way, leading to a larger champ battle.

• Jormag had the northern parts of Wayfarer, the northeastern part of Snowden, and Frostgourge(where its champion the Claw was)
• Kralk had the Dragonbrand which ran though Fields of Ruin, Blazeridge(where its champion the Shatterer was), and into Iron Marches
• Zhaitan had the southern part of Bloodtide, and the Sparkfly Fen map(where its champ Tequatal was)
• Primordus was more scattershot owning it being the underground dragon that could pop up anywhere, but we saw its minions in Metrica, Brisban, Kessex, Lornars, Timberline, and Mount Malestrom(where its champ the Megadestoryer was)
• Mordremoth had the Iron Marches events, veins coming up in Timberline and Kessex, Mordrem in Dry Top, and the Silverwastes(where its champ the Vinewrath was)

Following that each Elder Dragon had pretty much the same actual "big fight" content. That being a pattern of three maps + a dragon fight

• Zhaitan had Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore. With the dragon fight in Arah story mode.
• Mordremoth had Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths. With the dragon fight in Dragon's Stand.
• Kralkatorrik had Vabbi, Jahai, and Thunderhead. With the dragon fight in Dragonfall.
• Jormag had Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood. With the dragon fight in Dragonstorm.
• Primordus had Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and had his third map/story section replaced with with first two Champions releases. With the dragon fight in Dragonstorm
• Soo-Won had Seitung, New Kaineng, and Echovald. With the dragon fight in Dragon's End

Giving each of the Elder Dragons a fairly consistent amount of content from launch to 10 years later is the exact opposite of rushed.

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

One of the blessings, and curses of GW2 writing is this.

We don't get swamped with unnecessary, side information unrelated to what's going on. We don't hear how Orr is doing when we are busy fighting in the far Shiverpeaks. We don't hear updates about the Charr-human treaty why wading through the heart of the Maguuma. We don't hear how the Krytan politics are playing out while trekking through Elona.

As a side result however, we tend to not hear "how things are going" for areas until we actually head back there. We don't hear about how the spirits are doing in Hoelbrek because well, we literally don't bother heading over there. We don't know what the state of Rata Sum is, partly because we haven't been back in any long term method, and partly Asura don't like to freely share tech or updates. We don't hear a current update on Jormag's frozen because it's not RELEVANT to the story in Cantha. Bangar's health is not RELEVANT. That is why it's unknown.

Pretty much this. None of these things matter to the Commander at this time, so they don't focus on it since the Commander wouldn't be focusing on it.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[HotDelirium.7984]

3 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

• Why should Braham have third degree burns over his body and be suffering from PTSD when the whole plot was that the Spirits of the Wild were protecting him from such damage in the first place? And they already established the Spirits were ok at the end of IBS, they just need time to fully recover.
• We know what happened to Bangar, he got de-iced and had to be taken to a hospital to be treated for the injuries that caused him. After that hes 100% in jail for his actions, and we really have zero reason to see, or interact with, him again.
• The people frozen by Jormag was covered in the Taimi/Gorrik dialogue between IBS and EoD. Jormag's death has caused a very slow defrosting of these people, but it could be years, if not longer, before they are freed.
• Yeah, it took 7 years to get to Cantha to deal with a plot arc that could only really be dealt with in Cantha. Do you think they would have put Cantha out earlier just to close out the thing with Majory's sister? Its almost people many people don't get closure on big life changing events for years, if not decades, after the fact in real life! Gods! Realism in GW2's writing!
• I don't agree with the idea that its obvious Soo-Won wasn't mother. We have been explicitly told since launch that there are 6 elder dragons, and the Water Dragons has always been without any real detail, lore, or knowledge. They even made its name damaged in the god scrolls just to keep it mysterious. While Mother as a concept wasn't likely a thing in Anet's mind until LWS4, I am 100% certain the water dragon was meant to be mother from that point. Whats more likely? That they were they going to introduce a SUPAH SEKRET 7TH ELDAH DRAYGON! that no one had heard about before, and had never been mentioned anywhere else in the lore, or that the 6th Elder Dragon we knew nothing about was going to be it? Occams' Razor suggests the simplest answer is the correct one. People even pointed out right as Kralkatorrik said mother at the end of LWS4 you could hear ocean waves, and thus it was likely that the water dragon was mother.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. People taking really simple things, and trying to concoct elaborate conspiracies to make them more complex then they need to be(or ever were) and then making up massive copeium to try to explain why it didn't go the way they wanted, when nothing suggested it was ever going to go that way.

On another note, whats rushed about any of these dragon stories? Its been nearly 10 years since GW2 came out. Most MMOs dont even make it to 10 years of active content development in the first place. GW2's story is the exact opposite of rushed. Its overly long to the point that it was always seriously questionable if they were ever going to finish it.

And all of the dragons got pretty much equal amounts of content as is. Each of the Elder Dragons had "teaser" content, where we fight the dragons minions in a significant way, leading to a larger champ battle.

• Jormag had the northern parts of Wayfarer, the northeastern part of Snowden, and Frostgourge(where its champion the Claw was)
• Kralk had the Dragonbrand which ran though Fields of Ruin, Blazeridge(where its champion the Shatterer was), and into Iron Marches
• Zhaitan had the southern part of Bloodtide, and the Sparkfly Fen map(where its champ Tequatal was)
• Primordus was more scattershot owning it being the underground dragon that could pop up anywhere, but we saw its minions in Metrica, Brisban, Kessex, Lornars, Timberline, and Mount Malestrom(where its champ the Megadestoryer was)
• Mordremoth had the Iron Marches events, veins coming up in Timberline and Kessex, Mordrem in Dry Top, and the Silverwastes(where its champ the Vinewrath was)

Following that each Elder Dragon had pretty much the same actual "big fight" content. That being a pattern of three maps + a dragon fight

• Zhaitan had Straights of Devastation, Malchor's Leap, and Cursed Shore. With the dragon fight in Arah story mode.
• Mordremoth had Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, and Tangled Depths. With the dragon fight in Dragon's Stand.
• Kralkatorrik had Vabbi, Jahai, and Thunderhead. With the dragon fight in Dragonfall.
• Jormag had Bitterfrost, Bjora, and Drizzlewood. With the dragon fight in Dragonstorm.
• Primordus had Ember Bay, Draconis Mons, and had his third map/story section replaced with with first two Champions releases. With the dragon fight in Dragonstorm
• Soo-Won had Seitung, New Kaineng, and Echovald. With the dragon fight in Dragon's End

Giving each of the Elder Dragons a fairly consistent amount of content from launch to 10 years later is the exact opposite of rushed.

Pretty much this. None of these things matter to the Commander at this time, so they don't focus on it since the Commander wouldn't be focusing on it.

You giving me secretly a dev vibez with that comprehensive response :3 

I'll revise- only the dragonstorm meta conclusion and the sudden dragonvoid reveal/conclusion feels a bit shoehorned.

Edited March 20, 2022 by HotDelirium.7984

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 3/4/2022 at 12:09 AM, artcreator.4859 said:

I am confused about the ending and wondering if anyone can explain. Why is everything all right after we kill soo won? Hasn't the entire story been about bad things happening when you release an elder dragon's magic upon the world.  In the end, aurene says her magic returned to the ley-lines and has balanced out, not causing any problems for now. Why did it not cause a problem this time but has caused a problem every other time?

Well, you know how Taimi is always there to pull exactly the invention we need to solve whatever problem we have out of her butt right when we need it?  Aurene is like the dragon version of that.  Even if she's killed, if we need her alive she's alive again!  And if we need her to filter the magic that corrupted the mother of all dragons and threatened to destroy the world?  Yeah, she can do that, too. She also makes great coffee and if you get into trouble with the law she has a law degree as well.  Just go with it, man.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:09 AM, artcreator.4859 said:

I am confused about the ending and wondering if anyone can explain. Why is everything all right after we kill soo won? Hasn't the entire story been about bad things happening when you release an elder dragon's magic upon the world.  In the end, aurene says her magic returned to the ley-lines and has balanced out, not causing any problems for now. Why did it not cause a problem this time but has caused a problem every other time?

 

The story has included an evolving understanding of how the magics involved work. We assumed dragon dying would result in stuff like what we saw happen with the bloodstone. As we reached the end, we learned it was the dragon magic just being dumped back into the ley lines as it was, then mixing with other dragon magics that was causing trouble.

 

Aurene was able to filter out the magic so it returned to the system pure, instead of jumbled. Like Taimi mentioned in S3 I believe, the dragons would filter out a type of magic.

 

Also by the time Soo-won died, she had been beaten severely by the gathered armies and then smashed with the Extractor (twice total). So it's not like she was at full charge either way. Plus Aurene being literally nose to nose with her would mean greater absorption/filtering :P.

edit: I'll also note at first we assumed the dragons dying wouldn't have ANY severe results to the world, with Zhaitan and all.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Logos.5603]

On 3/8/2022 at 1:12 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

End of Dragons makes it clear that both ley-lines and void are mixed magic, and prisms isn't separating the magic so much as filtering. What Aurene is doing is taking void, separating it via prism, then recombining it into ley-lines via herself. This is her "filtering out" the Dragonvoid's influence from magic. The Dragonvoid itself being a manifestation of the Void born from the personalities of the six Elder Dragons after eons of interaction. The Void influenced the Elder Dragons and the Elder Dragons influenced the Void to form Dragonvoid.

Well what is she filtering out to make it non-void? What are the contaminants? If it is chaos, then that is circular because chaos means unseparated, and that's what she is doing when she makes ley energy (making the 6 types of magic one again).

[Aedil.1296]

Ok after reading this thread now I have some seriously big questions:

1 - Who created Soo-Won? We know the void does not sustain life as its pure chaos. But if Soo-Won shaped the void into a balanced state that allowed life and created Tyria, then she wasn't living inside the Void nor she was created by the Void wasn't she? 

2 - Soo-Won was the very first living being as she created the whole Tyria. But we know that Tyria is a planet with observable sky and stars, so did she create the whole universe and the stars as well or only Tyria the planet? Interesting to note that during Arah Telescope path is mentioned the dragons had effects on the stars too. 

I don't think Soo-Won was created by the mists, as only Kralk and Aurene got ability to travel to the mists only absorbing Balthy magic. Also, the gods abandoned Tyria as a confrontation with elder dragons could have been catastrophic and not a certain win, this puts dragons and gods on the same level, is it possible that who created Soo-Won also created the gods? 

3 - did Kormir and the gods knew about the Void and were they scared of it making it the reason they fled away? I would say that Balthy didn't know about Void or thought he would control it as he tried to absorb Kralk's magic? 

With EoD they opened a whole new level of speculations and new questions 😂

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

29 minutes ago, Aedil.1296 said:

I don't think Soo-Won was created by the mists, as only Kralk and Aurene got ability to travel to the mists only absorbing Balthy magic.

I would argue that Soo-Won most likely was created from the Mists. Not only would this fit typical mythologies with the creation of the first primordial deities that then create the planet and the skies through various methods, but that counterpoint wouldn't really work as most Mists entities cannot travel nor affect the Mists. Razah and the Skyscales being prime examples.

The Void doesn't seem to be a force of creation - rather it seems to be the antithesis of The Mists. The Void is the chaotic combination of all things into one singular mass, while the Mists is the chaotic protomatter that's constantly creating things.

One's constantly creating, the other's constantly consuming those creations. I wouldn't be surprised if the Void turns things into protomatter, which the Mists then uses to create new things. protomatter for the Mists -> becomes new beings, realms, fractals, and/or worlds -> instability over time -> enter the Void -> becomes protomatter for the Mists -> rinse repeat.

As to Soo-Won creating the solar system... I'm rather doubtful, but the Elder Dragons are known to affect the night sky - so were the gods in Nightfall (Nightfall itself was prophecized in the stars, Kormir's ascension was signified in a new star being born, etc.); some sections of the Mists tend to look like space - such as the Godot rock that the Commander and Braham get stuck on at the end of A Bug in the System, Shattered Observatory Fractal, Mistlock Sanctuary, and even the Realm of Torment in GW1. Because of this, it's hard to say that Tyria does have a solar system as we would understand it, rather than a more mythological design that extends only so far. Tyrians do seem to believe there's a solar system, but they don't exactly have spaceships to test the theory out.

29 minutes ago, Aedil.1296 said:

3 - did Kormir and the gods knew about the Void and were they scared of it making it the reason they fled away? I would say that Balthy didn't know about Void or thought he would control it as he tried to absorb Kralk's magic?

It's hard to say. While both The Map of The All as well as Kesho's monologue mention "the void", it's very unlikely to be referring to The Void. But Kormir seemed dead set convinced that there was no salvation for Tyria - so even if they didn't know of the Void, they did know about the Elder Dragons' importance in the world's stability. Balthazar didn't care about the world's stability - he simply wanted a good fight (at first), and then just wanted power to get revenge. If he knew about the Void, he probably either didn't give it much thought, or believed that he could simply leave into the Mists before it posed a danger to him.

[Aedil.1296]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I would argue that Soo-Won most likely was created from the Mists. Not only would this fit typical mythologies with the creation of the first primordial deities that then create the planet and the skies through various methods, but that counterpoint wouldn't really work as most Mists entities cannot travel nor affect the Mists. Razah and the Skyscales being prime examples.

The Void doesn't seem to be a force of creation - rather it seems to be the antithesis of The Mists. The Void is the chaotic combination of all things into one singular mass, while the Mists is the chaotic protomatter that's constantly creating things.

One's constantly creating, the other's constantly consuming those creations. I wouldn't be surprised if the Void turns things into protomatter, which the Mists then uses to create new things. protomatter for the Mists -> becomes new beings, realms, fractals, and/or worlds -> instability over time -> enter the Void -> becomes protomatter for the Mists -> rinse repeat.

As to Soo-Won creating the solar system... I'm rather doubtful, but the Elder Dragons are known to affect the night sky - so were the gods in Nightfall (Nightfall itself was prophecized in the stars, Kormir's ascension was signified in a new star being born, etc.); some sections of the Mists tend to look like space - such as the Godot rock that the Commander and Braham get stuck on at the end of A Bug in the System, Shattered Observatory Fractal, Mistlock Sanctuary, and even the Realm of Torment in GW1. Because of this, it's hard to say that Tyria does have a solar system as we would understand it, rather than a more mythological design that extends only so far. Tyrians do seem to believe there's a solar system, but they don't exactly have spaceships to test the theory out.

It's hard to say. While both The Map of The All as well as Kesho's monologue mention "the void", it's very unlikely to be referring to The Void. But Kormir seemed dead set convinced that there was no salvation for Tyria - so even if they didn't know of the Void, they did know about the Elder Dragons' importance in the world's stability. Balthazar didn't care about the world's stability - he simply wanted a good fight (at first), and then just wanted power to get revenge. If he knew about the Void, he probably either didn't give it much thought, or believed that he could simply leave into the Mists before it posed a danger to him.

Isn't in divinitys reach a representation of a solar system in the queen's garden? 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Aedil.1296 said:

Isn't in divinitys reach a representation of a solar system in the queen's garden? 

A hardly accurate one, half the planets don't revolve and there's a "moon" that's in a planetary position.

But as I did say:

Quote

Tyrians do seem to believe there's a solar system, but they don't exactly have spaceships to test the theory out.